and they're all coming? those who are still with us, yes. grandpa! what's this? your wings. light 'em up! gentlemen, it's a beautiful... ...day to fly.

>> specifically those stills of a c-span video that proves donald trump and keith schiller were together, which has just been introduced into the redirection from cohen. so far, todd blanche has landed multiple punches against cohen. >> including cohen's admission that he stole tens of thousands of dollars from the trump organization and the question about how many more witnesses were left and who might the defense call. >> those are big questions. vaughn hillyard is outside of the courthouse, along with andrew weissmann and catherine christian who are still with us as well. so, vaughn, it's the top of the hour. i will let you top us off. >> reporter: we're looking at the 3:00 p.m. eastern hour, and michael cohen is still on the stand, and there were questions

of whether michael cohen when we started the day would be off the stand by lunch hour. that's not the case as there has been of course the back and forth over potential witnesses, the back and forth over the c-span clip from october 24th. a video clip that was filmed just six minutes before that october 24th, 8:06 p.m. phone call that michael cohen testified to, that he called keith schiller with donald trump on the other end of the phone, and he has claimed that he had a conversation during that very phone call in which it was told by donald trump to go through with that $130,000 payment just in the last half hour now, they have entered that clip back into as evidence, with michael cohen testifying to keith schiller being present on that stage. but now you're looking at potentially two witnesses being called by the defense team, as soon as this afternoon. donald trump has still not been ruled out. but it was suggested by judge

merchan here that we could potentially have a charging conference by thursday. we should note the next tuesday is when we expect closing arguments for those that are just checking in. there are questions of whether this case could potentially go to the jury as soon as this week but now with closing arguments not slated until the day after memorial day, this will not be headed towards deliberation for this jury and a verdict will not come this week. the soonest it would be is next week, guys. >> vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. so they're playing a phone call. this was where they had technical difficulties before the jury and the court took a break. this is a phone call between michael cohen and keith davidson, something that was played a couple of weeks ago at the beginning of the trial, i believe when keith davidson was on the stand. this is michael cohen regretting, he says, everything that he did for donald trump regarding stormy daniels. cohen says, what would you do if you were me, davidson says i

can't even imagine. cohen says would you write a book, break away from the entire trump doctrine, would you go completely rogue, join with bannon, any thoughts. it's not just me being affected. no one is thinking about michael. i wasn't going to be penny wise, pound foolish. i was sitting there thinking to myself, what about me, what about me, i hate the fact that we did it. is that accurate. michael cohen says yes. hoffinger asks what did you mean by i can't tell you how many times he said i hate the fact that we did it. cohen says, i was referring to the payment to keith davidson that i made on behalf of mr. trump for stormy daniels. hoffinger says, who was the he, cohen says mr. trump. hoffinger, were you still being paid by mr. trump.

cohen, yes, ma'am. and were you personal attorney for president trump, yes. defense asked you questions about how you profited. i do remember. putting aside the financial matters, how has telling the truth about donald trump affected your life? cohen says my life has been turned upside down, lost his law license, business, financial security, my family's happiness, he says. hoffinger, there have been certain attacks you have faced as a result, has it been painful to you and your family. cohen says very much so. then the prosecution rests, not rests but done with michael cohen. there's the recross. todd blanche comes back up. you were asked about a question about your life being turned upside down because you changed your view about trump. this is an objection, it's sustained. blanche, you were asked about the consequences of your conduct, lost your law license. is that president trump's fault.

cohen says in part. coenhad, lost my law license because of the totality, including campaign finance violations, lying to congress. blanche, is one of the reasons you lost your law license because of tax crimes. asked and answered, objection sustained. blanche, convicted of a felony in new york so you automatically lost your law license. but you still blame president trump for that? cohen, correct. this is what blanche was trying to do early on in the cross-examination to say that michael cohen never takes responsibility for his own actions. he's always looking for a scapegoat, the judge. he's blaming donald trump for actions, he lost his law license not because of donald trump but because of tax crimes. >> his answer was in part. and i agree with you on the main cross-examination, i thought todd blanche did an effective

job of saying, you know, everyone is to blame, but, you know, you have to take responsibility. that was a perfectly fair line of cross. i do think that on recross, this shows to my mind as a technical matter, you have to have some point you want to make. this strikes me as in many ways, helping the prosecution, by going over facts that the prosecution wants them to hear again. so i don't see anything sort of new coming out. >> and when you were reading it, katy i was thinking of what catherine said earlier as a defense lawyer. don't ask something, if you're going to get an answer that's going to help the prosecution. everything he said showed someone who's in distress, and feels his life has been ruined. he said in part. >> that's actually right. if you believe him, he committed his own crimes, that had nothing

to do with donald trump but a whole bunch of things and frankly the reason he's caught is because of donald trump. i mean, this happens all the time where, you know, no one was sort of focusing on this but for donald trump. that's why he got caught. >> it's incredible, he is saying that trump said in his presence, you know, that he's sorry we did it. the it being the alleged crime. >> that tape i find so interesting. i connect that to what david pecker said at the beginning of the trial, and it has a ring of truth because you've got these witnesses basically saying donald trump wasn't thinking this was the greatest idea, and he was somewhat reluctant. at first he wasn't a fan of doing this. he said it all comes out anyway. why are we spending the pun being somebody who doesn't want to spend my money. why do it. and he goes along with it and does it. this at the back end is the same

thing. you have michael cohen saying to keith davidson, sort of recounting donald trump also sort of like regretting that they had done this. that's not what you would expect to hear. >> one of the things that occurred to me is we all asked the question and talked a lot leading up to the trial and early in the trial, obviously during the selection of the jury, there are feelings about donald trump, can you set your feelings aside on donald trump. i can't think of too many trials where there's a bunch or at least one other person, michael cohen who many of these people may know about or have an opinion about. we know at least one of them listened to the podcast, mea culpa. when i was in line talking to some of the regular public who were waiting in line. two people, one who later told me that she hopes he's acquitted. the other he told me he hopes

donald trump goes to jail. both of them said they hated michael cohen. yes, jurors will say, i can set aside my personal feelings, but is it human nature, is it your experience that if it is a known person, or someone that they already have feelings about, if it affirms their feelings, one way or another, that it's more powerful. >> well, everyone on the jury has heard of donald trump. not everyone may have heard of michael cohen. so in terms of cohen, what the prosecution is hoping that no matter what, he's a liar, he's a thief, all of that, that they can put that aside to say, but you know what, most of what he's saying, he's the only one that ties donald trump directly to it. if enough corroboration, and circumstantial evidence of guilt, he was detailed, micro manager, the paper clips, check the invoices for the decorator,

of course he knew what allen weisselberg and michael cohen were doing. that's what the prosecution hopes. >> you were just asked about a photograph from a rally on october 24, 2016, keith schiller was trump's body guard and traveled with him every day. when that rally ended around 8:00 p.m., in the 90 seconds you spoke with schiller about the program with the 14-year-old, and had time to pass the phone to trump and update them on everything that was going on. cohen says yes, sir. >> what's the point of it. what does he think he's going to say, no, i changed my mind. >> this is me guessing, see in the jury's mind, how could you possibly have both of those jurors in a short period of time. >> or the one juror that will buy into the he's lying, he's making this up. >> let's bring in danny cevallos. >> this is a question i put in the category of disbelief

question. the real reason todd blanche is asking that question, when the rally ended, you have 90 seconds to update on the 14-year-old. and stormy daniels. to demonstrate how unbelievable it is to the jury. the problem is you should only ask that disbelief type question when the answer yes would be so insane. mr. cohen, isn't it true you claim to have invented the frying pan, and michael cohen says i did, i'm telling you i did, he looks like he's out of his mind. this is not that question. this is a question that goes to the heart of the point, and allowing cohen to reaffirm that, yes, in 90 seconds, i did have time to complain about the 14-year-old who's prank calling me, and hand over the phone to trump to update on the stormy daniels. yeah, it's true, i did, in 0ir9

90 seconds. the only reason they ask the question is for disbelief. this isn't the time to ask a question like that. all it doesn't is give cohen the opportunity to say yes. double down. you can only ask a question like that if it's patently absurd that the witness says yes. >> michael cohen has stepped down. he's done. cohen get as look at trump, but trump does not look back it appears. steinglass, your honor, the people rest. so the prosecution has rested. this is now in the hands of the defense. we're going to find out in a moment if the defense is going to call any witnesses. right before noen got off the stand, blanche was asking him about lying to congress. he was asking him about the money he made from the trump organization. in 2017 you were paid $420,000.

you were president trump's attorney the entire year, cohen says correct. it was president trump paying you back. cohen, it was a reimbursement. did he overpay for things regularly. no, sir. cohen says trump university where people accepted 20 from legal fees. >> blanche, these were different vendors, hoffinger objects outside the scope. sustained. donald trump spent $70 million of his own money on the campaign. objection, sustained, blanche, the 11 years you work for donald trump, do you recall him ever just willingly overpaying for something. michael cohen, no, that's the first time i recall mr. trump paying for an nda. blanche, i have no more questions. cohen steps down they are in a bench meeting. actually, the defense calls

daniel i think it's citco. who in the world is daniel citco. vaughn hillyard are you with us? do you know who daniel is? >> reporter: katy tur, are you really putting that on me right now? no, i don't. and i hope we're not embarrassed by this as soon as we find out. this is not somebody that was on my radar either. >> i can tell you an anecdote, when i would do trials. >> he's a paralegal for blanche, he would sit there and look, not know who was coming in from the defense side, and they would just sort of hop on the stand. your witness. >> paralegal for blanche law. >> they said they were going to call a paralegal to put in a phone chart they prepared.

so this is going to be additional phone records. >> could be the length of the october 24th call. >> this should be fairly innocuous. >> worked at blanche law since july of 2023. >> blanche law has only existed since july of 2023. >> we have five seconds. kudos, as i sat next to our two producers today who are putting the information in this document, their fingers flying, paying close attention hour after hour after hour. >> they're doing an amazing job. >> can i give kudos to court staff on all the officers working. they have been really patient and accessible. they have really helped the news media get in there. it's been very ordinarily. they are extraordinarily strict. if you touch your phone, they will come at you, lawyer in the courtroom.

if you get on the phone, you will get kicked out of the courtroom. they are doing an amazing job to make sure the press has access and the people have access to the case. i was impressive. >> as i was walking through the various, you know, places where they check you in, there's a lot of security there. good morning, good morning. they were just all fantastic. >> couldn't agree more. there wasn't a vicious person. they were very effective, efficient, and completely pleasant. they have a lot on their plate. >> remarkable pressure, dealing with a former president of the united states, secret service, all of the issues of things outside the courtroom. right now, citco is being asked what he did this past friday, and he's asked to create a summary, chart phone calls, look at exhibit for phone and look for contact between that number and numbers associated with costello, anywhere they appear

in a phone log, i would copy and paste into an excel spreadsheet. >> i was going to comment on the end of the re-cross-examination. i didn't know what todd blanche was doing. those points are the state's points. to stress how much donald trump is focused on not over paying, and how careful he is with money, i was just like, todd, stop, think. that's not the right point. >> he's making the point, why would he pay for this. and talking about calls between costello and cohen. doesn't that indicate that costello is going to be called? >> maybe. >> let me go to former manhattan assistant district attorney and new york law school professor, rebecca roife. let me bring you in here. you have somebody who's a fairly new employee for a fairly new

operation which is todd blanche's law firm. on the defense team saying that they were asked to create a summary chart of phone calls. looked for contact between certain numbers, anywhere they appeared in a phone log, i would copy and paste the info into an excel spreadsheet and the witness is shown the spreadsheet that is created. admitted into evidence, and at the top are calls between costello and cohen. how important could this be and what do you make of this after they closed with such a question as andrew points out. do you recall ever just willingly paying? no, that's the first time i recall it. what do you make of this. >> i think they're setting up the next witness. this seems like testimony that is in itself not so important

but important in that it can set up an argument later on if they can connect the dots. >> we have a technical difficulty of our own, apparently whatever was happening at the court is going. we have lost her video. they are just going into minute details of this. why are some call durations, 0000, the call was not answered. 75 total calls were not answered but several calls longer than a half hour. >> calls between costello and cohen. >> may 27th, 2018, 96 minutes. this was the sunday before that. and then they're looking at labor day as well. >> i mean, it's quite interesting to me because to catherine's point, this is such a risky strategy. michael cohen, you know, certainly had a bumpy ride. we all knew he would given his

baggage going in. there wasn't a lot unexpected. there's the one october 24th thing which diffused on redirect. costello, when the defense takes on the burden instead of waiting, a lot of times, the jurors do open to a different standard. they're like, okay, you're going to present a case, and they start thinking about what it looks like, and costello has the ability to implode on the stand and the defense, you know, has already made him available to the prosecution. so they're ready for him. to me, it's a striking, it's a risky strategy if they're going to put him on. >> if they do something that risky, do they say they think they might be in trouble? >> the case is a strong case. i'm not saying it's not a triable case. you know, there's a substantial amount of evidence. it's not like if their was a

guilt verdict, people are going to say i'm shocked. they lucked into it. so even with that, let's take that as a given, they thought they have to do that. again, we don't know exactly what he's going to say, but i'm not sure if you think you're in trouble, but that's the witness you're going to hang your hat on. >> so blanche has finished with his witness, the paralegal at his law firm. the prosecution is getting their turn to cross examine him. pretty basic so far. you created this chart based on phone records. phone ending in blah blah blah from mr. cohen's phone, already in evidence and under seal, yes, they put an exhibit in. the defense had these phone records since mid-2023 right. citco says yes. zoom in to the top of the page. you see the rows indicating where the subject caller is dhc.

it does general confirm line. see where he's going with it. i wonder, do you believe this is setting up robert costello? >> i think that's the logical assumption from what this could possibly be. that there's some kind of chart that's going to connect various calls that the defense is going to use when questioning about his conduct during those calls, maybe to add some question to the credibility of michael cohen. >> would you have put on the defense or would you have just let it go? >> letting it go at this point would be probably the best thing to do but i can understand feeling under a great deal of pressure to do something. i think the prosecution has put on an extremely strong case and resting now is risky. they are risky choices, and it's a question of what their defense is before you can tell whether

it's a good risk to take or not. >> it's hard to imagine, katy tur, but you tell me, would donald trump say i want a defense? >> i mean, i cannot get into donald trump's head, but donald trump, as we know, we know what kind of attorney he likes, at least on television, and that is a hard charging attorney who is aggressive, and does not easily cede points. todd blanche is not that guy in the courtroom. his demeanor is different. much calmer. the person you want on television is probably not the person you want in a courtroom, and i would not put it past donald trump to understand that difference. and to understand that when he's arguing a case in front of a judge and jury, especially if there are no cameras in that room, and maybe todd blanche has convinced them of this. that's going to be more effective than the jury, rather than somebody playing for a political audience with the

court of public opinion, if you will, when he has an alina habba on. >> you asked this question earlier before i came back, of the people who came today, and now this has become a regular thing. the member of congress who come there to show their allegiance for donald trump. todd blanche may not be doing it. he has plenty of people showing up for him. >> we have not spoken enough about chuck today, the guy is such a character. just by the looks of him walking into that room, i mean, the crowds that he's assembled, all coming in, the same exact suit. we had jeremy on a little bit earlier ago, and it looked like the groomsmen at a wedding all wearing the same outfits or somebody, they're going to a prom and they're going to pin their corsage. >> it's a cheering section. >> yeah, i mean, listen, alina habba, was more in the style that donald trump likes. look how that case turned out with engoron. didn't turn out well.

the case with e. jean carroll didn't turn out that well. todd blanche is different, and we'll see how this case turns out. it's definitely financially those were devastating. this could be physically devastating. potentially behind embarrass. >> and politically devastating. >> i wonder about those polls, i wonder if people understand that just because you were a felon or even if you were in prison, i think people might think that means you're automatically disqualified. you can still be on the ballot, you can still run for president. you could still be president. it would create a constitutional crisis, but there are no laws. >> to describe him as a felon, you have to have the public writ large get past his pro testations and accept that it's a misdemeanor, prosecutor

charged into a felony and a felony that some people on the jury just trying to imagine the average low information juror. saying why is this a felony. >> one thing that's interesting, when the case was brought, we were focused on that, the sort of misdemeanor sort of false business records, what's the theory for upping it to a felony, and very focused on what's the proof of that. that's where a lot of, like, you know, me and my sort of legal colleagues were focused on that. >> he's coming on the stand. we knew this was being set up. let's go to vaughn hillyard. tell us what robert costello has said about michael cohen in public. >> reporter: yeah, catherine mentioned this, that he, in fact, went before the grand jury, the one that indicted donald trump last march, and so the prosecution already knows what robert costello is likely

to testify to as well as the defense does. and robert costello came into the picture as counsel for michael cohen in the after math of april 2018 when michael cohen's home and hotel room were raided and federal authorities were able to get his phones and computer records. he began turning to robert costello for advice. we heard this morning there was discrepancy over whether he was formally his legal counsel, whether they had an understanding that their conversations were privileged or not. besides all of that, ultimately michael cohen waived robert costello's ability to speak publicly about their private conversations and that is what led robert costello to speak to the grand jury one year ago. when he left speaking to the grand jury, i think it's worth noting what he told cameras publicly, and it was very specific. the question to him was did he ever specifically tell you that

donald trump does not know about the payment to stormy daniels. costello says, yes, absolutely. reporters said he said that. robert costello said he said that. that's what he said at the time, is it true? i don't know. did you tell the grand jury that, yes, i did. robert costello is another one of those voices, who said, michael cohen is holding the line as was brought out today from other testimony that you told reporters this. he told allies this, and he had maintained in the early parts of 2018 that he did this independently of donald trump, but what robert costello was acknowledging, michael cohen telling him the truth, he could not be wholly sure. we would expect that is likely what the jury is about to hear, but clearly the defense for donald trump wanted to bring them forward because at least the jury will hear directly from somebody who will verbally speak the words that michael cohen told me he did this by himself and not at the director of

donald trump. >> could you hear a conversation until the jury room like what are we supposed to believe? which of the things that, i mean, you made the point obviously the things that helped one side, you can't agree and disagree based on which side it's on, but at some point, could a jury throw its hands up and say this guy is just, there's so much back and forth that we don't know. we can't really take his veracity on anything into account. >> i think one of the things the jurors might do, and i think the state will ask them to do this is to first start with hard evidence. things like phone calls, the notes that show how the payments were structured. the checks. and sort of create a time line and things that you know happened, and then talk about the witnesses that seem, you know, highly credible, that, you know, it's unlikely someone is

going to say hope hicks lied and go to the difficult witnesses, the principle one being michael cohen. you could imagine him saying, let's look at the evidence even without him and think about the story and what makes sense even without it. so i think that that's a way to go through this. >> danny, regarding robert costello who's just been called, what do you imagine is being discussed right now, regarding i'm assuming the parameters of his testimony. >> that's it. where can they go, where can they not go. as suggested in the google doc we're following along with, though they work out the parameters from the bench, that doesn't mean there aren't going to be objections from the state. i spent the last 20 minutes watching a lot of critical questions from the prosecution of michael cohen that were phrased as leading questions. on essential issues of the case.

essentially, mr. trump ordered you to do these things, and michael cohen just answers yes. no objection. but the state is willing to object, and they will object throughout the testimony of costello. as much as the court may try to define where they can go and can't go, it's going to be a gray area. so it will be interesting to see how far the defense pushes when costello does take the stand. he may have taken the stand, but when questioning begins of costello. >> that is underway right now, taking the stand. the question is there an issue whether he was under retainer and whether there was a lawyer/client privilege involved here. i think cohen testified there was no retainer agreement. he was suspicious of him. >> it's a little technical but prior to formally retaining someone, whether it's in writing or not, you can have an

attorney/client privilege discussion. you're discussing whether you want the person to represent you. this could have been. michael cohen said we never got to the point where he was my lawyer but that also means that those conversations could be privileged. he then said when i met with the southern district of new york, i actually waived any privilege, so the reason that we're getting this information is because michael cohen signed a waiver. >> what was your interaction with robert costello, have you had any interactions with him with the mueller investigation? >> are there two robert costellos? phil rucker is here joining us. the former "washington post," of course, national editor, coauthor of two books on donald trump. "a very stable genius", and "i alone can fix it." did you come across robert costello in your reporting? >> robert costello has been a lawyer in this orbit for a number of years. i believe he represented michael cohen and was sort of somebody

that cohen could go to for help navigating this world. >> but he was connected to rudy giuliani as well. >> that's right. he also represented rudy giuliani and, in fact, in some instances, i believe, you know, spoke on mr. giuliani's behalf. >> phil, i'm just curious, in terms of the politics of this case, i know we're getting into the weeds on testimony and who they're calling and the nitty-gritty on certain phone calls and when they were happening, and when they weren't happening, what might have been discussed. the larger picture, though, and not whether this case is going to turn out to be a conviction for donald trump or not, but what it might possibly mean for the election. what is your sense of whether this is landing or whether people are paying attention at all? >> well, just one thing to keep in mind at the outset of all of

this is so many americans have fixed views of donald trump. like the universe of voters who are truly persuadable here who might have their opinions about trump changed based on this trial is very very small, and then you have to wonder how many of them are really paying attention to the hour by hour turns in this saga here. we'll have a clearer picture after there's a verdict. we might have a sense from interviewing voters and focus groups in key states to see whether the verdict ends up changing any opinions at all. my gut tells me it will not change that many minds just because so many people know so much about donald trump and already have firm opinions about him. >> does it change the way donald trump campaigns? does it change the way president biden campaigns if donald trump is a convicted felon when they debate? >> yeah, certainly.

hopefully they're scheduled to be debating next month. i think it certainly does change the dynamics around the campaign. if donald trump is out there running for office as a convicted felon, that's something that i think biden will be talking about regularly and will be part of the biography, part of the narrative of the trump campaign, and i think it might change how trump campaigns. he'll campaign as an aggrieved victim, somebody who arguing to his supporters that he was wronged by the criminal justice system, and needs to be reelected in order to fix it all, and i think it could really create a different dynamic between these two candidates. >> and merchan said at one point, he asked the jurors to step out. i do wish we had discussed this earlier, and hoffinger is saying this is evidence to rebuttal witness testimony. a general rule is you're stuck with the answer. if his testimony is admitted, it needs to be restricted. hoffinger says he testified several times.

he did not tell the truth to costello. it was going to get back to giuliani, then to trump. there's very little that should be admitted here. bove is saying, this testimony is offered to rebut pressure campaign against president trump. bove says it's the government's theory. he was concerned what he was saying was going to get back to the president. we gave notice days ago that we will put costello on the stand. there's no mystery here. we want to elicit facts about the way the engagement worked between april 2018. he said i'm seeking to elicit many facts between april and the summer of 2018. mr. cohen said i never agreed. i was concerned it would get back to the president and mr. costello was testing him. you don't think the theory is collateral? merchan says it goes to the credibility of mr. cohen. bove says, judge, for the

government to be suggesting that through the tweet in 2017, they juxtapose, they elicited from cohen. and merchan is asking how can costello testify to what cohen felt. and bove is answering, he can't. but he can testify. excuse me, this is going more slowly than we would have thought. >> he can testify to what mr. cohen said and did. >> let me clean one thing up. in the mueller report, he was, at some point on page 146 that on or about april 17th, 2018, cohen began speaking with an attorney who had a close relationship with rudy giuliani, investigating presidents lawyers, and then costello told cohen he had a back channel communication to giuliani. giuliani had said the channel was crucial and must be

maintained. "the new york times" published an article about the president's relationship and treatment of cohen. the president responded with a series of tweets predicting that cohen would not flip. >> i actually was too narrow when you asked me that. there's no question that costello documents that were introduced by the prosecution that suggested that there was this back channel to trump and this was an effort to get him to not flip. that is in volume two of the mueller report, which is outlining various alleged schemes to obstruct justice. so this is not new information. this is something that mueller uncovered. >> that's the alleged threatening behavior about trump that cohen was feeling. >> merchan says i disagree that costello can investigate to cohen's state of mind. can testify to what cohen said.

hoffinger said rebutting the pressure campaign should have been part of the main argument and the document is ending there. we're going to wait for it to update. i mean, it sounds like judge merchan is leaning toward limiting this testimony. >> this is a technical rule. probably glad you didn't become a lawyer, and that is a lot of times when somebody is impeached on something that the judge thinks is collateral, you're stuck with their answer. whether they say yes or no, you can't bring what's called extrinsic evidence, additional evidence that just goes to whether that answer was truthful or not. and a lot of what the defense is doing here feels like it's going down that rabbit hole, and that is why they're arguing it. they're arguing that rule of evidence and so this is a very

technical rule that applies. and judge merchan. he has so far been really good and really fair about giving the defense what it needs when they're right or arguably right, but this is one where i can see him limiting it. >> he's gone into chambers to confer with his clerk, check the law and analyze the rule. >> exactly. he did that with the foundation argument, and ultimately you could see what happened when he ultimately said i'm ruling that the state needs to have additional evidence to put this on. i'm going to give them opportunity that led to the defense saying you know what, we'll stipulate to it, rather than make them go through it, and we'll see what he does here. he could give guidance about a limited nature of what can be brought in or not. >> it's 3:41. court usually ends around 4:30. which means there's roughly 45 minutes, a little bit more. 50 minutes left before the end

of the day. in theory, costello could be a pretty short witness. am i wrong about that? >> depending on how he limits them, but this will go over to tomorrow. >> let's get a quick break in. in the words of brian williams, our dear friend, let's pay some bills. we will come back in just a moment, and we're going to get to vaughn hillyard on a little bit more about what michael cohen has testified about robert costello. don't go anywhere. costello don't go anywhere. it has derm-proven retinol... ...expertly formulated... ...to target skin cell turnover... ...and fights not one—but 5 signs of aging. with visible results... ...in just one week. neutrogena

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. judge merchan is back on the stand. he has his ruling in regards to the scope of costello's testimony. he says you can definitely cross examine him on two prior inconsistent statements, and i'll give you some latitude on the pressure campaign, but i will not allow this to become, quote, a trial within a trial about this pressure campaign and how it affected michael cohen. that is not the purpose of this trial. the retainer is collateral. the witness is coming in first. that's andrew costello, i'm sorry, robert costello. the defense has called him. he'll take the stand and emil bove will start the question in just a moment. vaughn hillyard, as we gear up on this, remind us what michael cohen has testified about robert costello. >> reporter: right. last week michael cohen testified about robert costello. this is what the jury has heard so far about this lawyer who helped michael cohen in the months after, in april 2018.

michael cohen's home and a hotel were raided. as phones were taken and gone through, that he turned to him as sort of an outside counsel voice. what michael cohen said is that he was skeptical of robert costello's intentions, and particularly because robert costello had repeatedly told him that he was all but working as a back channel through his friend rudy giuliani to donald trump. and the way that michael cohen described it to the jury was that it was quote, all covert, all back channel, i spyish. there was a june e-mail entered into the record in which robert costello sent cohen an e-mail, rudy giuliani has communicated to me that he is meeting with his client, donald trump, this evening, and added if there was anything you wanted to convey, tell me, and my friend will bring it up for discussion this evening. this is where it gets at the prosecution is making the case as they did until the last few minutes is that michael cohen

has testified that he was not being truthful only to robert costello because he believed he was working as a back channel to donald trump directly. in that e-mail sent on june 13th, michael cohen made his first public suggestion that he may cooperate with federal investigators and strike a plea deal, which he did just one month after that. this is all getting at the heart of that little time period where michael cohen had yet to flip on donald trump, and yet he was having conversations with allies of trump who sought to make sure he did not testify against the boss, the current president of the united states, donald trump. >> they're beginning with just the basics here where you work, i'm a partner at a law firm, how long, seven years, did you have government service, he was an assistant attorney in the southern district, write down the bloc, deputy chief at the criminal division. knowing the restrictions judge

merchan put in place, what do they get from mr. costello? >> more michael cohen is a liar, you have a separate witness to say that. it's more ammunition to hammer home he's lying to you here. he's lied in the past. don't believe him. don't believe that one little part that's not corroborated and vote to acquit my client. >> and the prosecution is ready. >> can i just say one thing that's very odd to me, it's we know that michael cohen has said i waive the attorney/client privilege. that's why we're hearing my unde ethics rules when i have represented somebody is even if there's a waiver of the attorney/client privilege, i still owe a duty of loyalty to that client, meaning, i don't get to -- subpoenaed, i have to tell the truth. there's no question about that but i don't get to go on tv and start talking about it negatively about a former client because i have a continued duty

of loyalty. i'm not sure how, like, i'm not sure if that will come up here. >> we're talking right now. he's being asked right now about the attorney/client privilege, and he said, absolutely, that it did exist. he considered their conversation privilege. >> why does it matter? >> he asked, what was discussed, and costello's explaining -- >> i'm losing the forest for the trees, whatever -- however you say that phrase. why does it matter, the attorney/client privilege they're so focussed on. >> normally if attorney/client privilege applied, we wouldn't know any of this, what an attorney and a client talk about. it's also like what you talk about with your priest or rabbi, what husbands and wives talk about. there's privileges in the law, which say, these are communications, which in most circumstances you can't get into. >> here's something interesting. so costello's describing michael cohen when he first met him at the regency hotel in manhattan, that's where michael cohen was

staying because he had a flood in his apartment and not where the fbi raided not only his home but hotel room and office in an upstairs floor. michael cohen explained the situation at his home in his office. he was absolutely manic, costello says, he was marching back and forth. we were in the conference room, and he was pacing back and forth and after i explained what was going on, he said, my life is shattered. my family life is shattered. he wanted me to explain to him his options and i said, this kind of a search warrant is much harder to get. costello then testifies that michael cohen said what's my escape route? that's the phrase he used. bove asked, what was your view that day about whether cohen should cooperate? there's an objection. it's sustained. bove asks again, what instructions did you give michael cohen about whether he should cooperate?

costello says, i explained to mr. cohen that it was obvious he was not the subject of a search, that this entire legal problem would be resolved by the end of the week if he had truthful information on donald trump and cooperated with the southern district. bove asks, what, if anything, did michael cohen say about trump at that meeting? costello says, same statement, i swear to god, bob, i don't have anything on donald trump. bove asks, what did he say about stormy daniels? costello says, he said i don't know why they want to put me in jail over an nda. an objection. the judge says the answer is stricken, and then asks bove to continue. >> of course, the jury heard all of that. >> yeah, you can't unring a bell. >> so, when bove is going at costello and trying to get to him saying, basically implying

that he would get off if he cooperated against donald trump, this wasn't really about michael cohen. this was all and has always been i assume is what they're trying to say about donald trump. >> that's why this testimony is so problematic. going back to why there is controversy over costello's testimony, it's this, and just building on what andrew said earlier, that you can impeach a witness. you can try to show he's less than truthful but what the courts don't want and have this rule of limitation is you can't turn everything into a mini trial on whether or not this particular witness answered a particular question truthfully because if you did we would go into a vortex and the vial would never end. it's a rule of limitation that may limit the amount of truth that comes out at the trial but deem that as part of a balancing test, an acceptable loss, because we would be into a -- we would again be in the vortex of trials upon trials upon mini trial, so now you see it with these objections, that even with

judge merchan's instructions, it's hard to know where exactly costello can go. the defense is framing this as, these are just costello's observations about michael cohen, and some of the things he said that tend to refute the idea of this pressure campaign. but, of course, the prosecution is going to argue that that's where they're going into. they're going into turning this into a mini trial on the issue of cohen's truthfulness and that's why you have 24 rule, normally as judge merchan said when you ask the witness a question and they give you an answer, you often have to take that answer. you can't start bringing in other extrinsic evidence of the witness' truthfulness or falsity. judge merchan is giving them leeway. the problem with that is we still aren't defined on what is allowed and what is not so i expect you have not heard the end of the objections by the prosecution in the testimony of costello. and to add to that, you have the complicating issues and, again,

building on what andrew said, there is attorney/client privilege. there is separately the ethical duties of loyalty to the client and confidentiality. that also makes this even more complicated in my view separate from attorney/client privilege which is just a privilege that prevents evidence from coming into court. the rules of ethics have nothing to do with whether or not something goes into court as evidence or not. they are the rules that bind all of us at all times, whether we're on a phone call, whether we're in court, whether we're sending an email, so there are some ethical concerns here, and apparently, you know, we're watching them try to thread the needle on the defense, but i imagine we'll hear more objections before this is over. >> laura -- >> we have to let danny go. thank you, danny, thank you, andrew. thank you, katherine. >> let me bring in laura jarrett writing from the court that costello is visibly frustrated by sustained objections to his testimony, ridiculous he just muttered to himself on the stand and bove said we're still focused, i want to keep it

narrow where cohen said if he knew president trump knew about a payment to stormy daniels, costello says, michael cohen said numerous times that trump didn't know that cohen did it on his own and he repeated that numerous time. >> so this is costello trying once again to eat away at michael cohen's credibility, and here's somebody that the defense has that says michael cohen has said to me that donald trump didn't know about this stormy daniels payment so it's not just directly -- it's not just taking away his credible. it's directly contradicting something that he has testified to. rebecca, how effective is this? >> i think it's pretty effective. i think judge merchan has issued a few of these instructions that are a little bit vague and as a result of the vague directions, the same thing happened with the stormy daniels testimony, if you remember. they told the prosecution, you know, keep in clean basically and that didn't really work out so well, because the witness sort of volunteered this

information and then, you know, what do you do with it? so i think it's -- i think it can be somewhat actually useful for the defense here, because it really does show on a level that for awhile, you know, it's possible that michael cohen is telling -- is not telling the truth in this critical way, and there are ways in which chipping away at his credibility is not helpful at all but if they can get the jury to look at his testimony differently and more skeptically then it is successful. i think it's marginally successful what they're trying to do. >> what about the prosecution arguing that michael cohen testified he didn't tell robert costello truthful information because he didn't trust robert costello? >> right, no, 100%. that's the explanation and i'm sure the prosecution will come back on cross-examination and somehow make that clear and certainly make it clear in their summation, but i think this is a critical moment, right?

this is the moment at which michael cohen supposedly according to him changes, so he was lying for the president, former president then he stops lying for the former president and the jury has to believe that that happened and so that's why i do think this is an important moment in the narrative, because if the jury thinks that all along he's always lying, just calculating what's good for him and what's not good for him, then i think the jury could lose him. again, i don't know -- i mean, i don't even think that's necessarily fatal to the prosecution's case, because as andrew was saying earlier, the prosecution is going to build the kiss on the documents, the credible witnesses and slightly less credible witnesses and michael cohen is icing on the cake, so i don't think it's a critical loss even if the jury stops believing michael cohen, but, you know, it's not good, and especially not good in the way in which the prosecution has set up this case where he is

their final witness suggesting how important he is for the case. >> so the defense has said they probably have two witnesses, they've just called the paralegal, costello is now on the stand. there's going to be a pretty interesting cross-examination. i'm going to bet robert costello when the prosecution gets their chance here, but after that maybe with a redirect, this case is going to go to summations and those summations will probably start -- >> the problem with that you got to have the jury instruction conference. >> and sum makes will be next week. >> probably start on tuesday. ladies, always wonderful to be with you. >> likewise. >> the four hours have flown by as they always do. but don't worry, everyone at home, "deadline: white house" is next with more on the donald trump hush money trial and whatever happens next with robert costello.