among jewish americans who are pro-israel, while at the same time, you know, reaching out to progressives who don't like what they see in gaza right now. you know, we saw him over the weekend in his morehouse speech, you know, saying that, "i hear you. i hear the protesters, and i'm listening to you." but at the same time, i think he feels strongly, like this icc finding was outrageous, as he put it. you know, you noticed in the speech at the white house yesterday, you know, he said he will stand with israel against the butchers of hamas. you know, this is one of those cases where it is a real challenge to, you know, placate both sides. i think they're hoping for some kind of deal with the hostages that will allow them to move forward. >> desperate for the cease-fire deal for lots of reasons. covering a lot of ground for us this morning. white house reporter for "the wall street journal," ken thomas.

thank you, as always. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. trump's lawyers, they've been working to paint michael cohen as a sleazy liar who is hellbent on revenge, conveniently leaving out the fact trump used him as his own personal porno venmo. >> after calling 20 minutes over the past month, the prosecution rested their case. when he heard, trump was like, i've been resting the whole case. [ applause ] time to rest. time to rest. >> michael cohen admitted on the stand today he stole money from the trump organization. only in a donald trump trial would the star witness be the one who ends up going to jail. how lucky is donald trump? donald trump is like a corruption mr. magoo.

he's just stumbling around, quid pro quoing, metal beams falling all around him, getting out unscathed. we'll have more from donald trump's hush money trial, including the dramatic exchange in court with a trump ally that led to the judge clearing the courtroom. meanwhile, rudy giuliani and other trump supporters who are accused of election interference in arizona are due in court today. we'll explain that case and how prosecutors tracked down the former mayor of new york. we'll have the latest out of iran on the death of the country's president and foreign minister in the helicopter crash. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, may 21st. joe, there are ways to be in court, and there are ways not to be. >> well, we'll talk about it in a minute.

i'll tell you, and i'll say it again, in most courtrooms in america, certainly in courtrooms that i grew up around as a young attorney in northwest florida, if a witness acted toward a judge the way this defense witness acted yesterday, judge would have cleared the courtroom, called in the bailiff, sent him to jail, say, "we're going to take a recess and let the witness think about this in jail for 24 hours." take him out in cuffs, bring him back the next day. obviously, the judge is balancing a lot of different things. we'll get to that in a minute. willie, you haven't had a chance to talk about what we talked about a little yesterday. the new york knicks, of course, lost. >> yeah. >> what a remarkable team this year. what a remarkable season. what a remarkable fight that they had. even, you know, still getting banged up in the final game,

game seven. the injuries kept coming. with indiana shooting 70%, 72% from the three-point -- from the three-point area, the surprise isn't that they lost. the surprise is that they got within, like, six points. they still had that fight in them even until the very end. >> yeah. they were a really fun team this year, and they just literally ran out of players. everybody was hurt. even the guys on the floor in game seven were hurt. it is not an excuse, but it is true. indiana deserved to win. they played great. they scored 130 points on the road in a game seven at madison square garden, taking the crowd out of it. indiana deserve to win. they move on, start their series in boston tonight. boston will be heavily favored, but indiana feels like a hot team right now. man, the knicks gave us so much to cheer about. if they can get healthy, resign some guys, if they can keep guys around, maybe add one more scorer for jalen brunson, the future is very bright there.

a lot to celebrate for knicks fans. we're disappointed, but the truth is, by the end of the series, it was clear we were sort of on our last leg and hobbling through the end of it. pacers deserve it. fun to watch them against the celtics tonight. >> man, who would believe, like mika was saying, my gosh, the east is crazy, but who would have believed what we got in the west? timberwolves against dallas. >> yeah. >> don't turn your back on the timberwolves, one of the most exciting teams, as mika says, she's seen in a very long time. >> yes. >> she's a huge fan of hasn't -- a fan of antman. >> how did you know? >> it'll be a fun series. luka, karl-anthony towns, and kyrie irving. it'll be a good one. let's turn to donald trump's hush money trial.

contentious moments with robert costello looking to further the narrative that michael cohen is narrated by revenge. cohen was considering hiring costello at rudy giuliani's recommendation. costello promised to act as a back channel to former president trump, but cohen never retained him. the two have feuded publicly ever since. costello testified cohen told him several times that he did not, quote, have anything on donald trump, and that he paid stormy daniels hush money, quote, on his own. costello soon became aggravated after objections by prosecutors, began making comments under his breath. this is a witness. rolling his eyes. >> oh, my gosh. >> this prompted presiding judge merchan to ask the jury to leave before addressing the situation. quote, "i want to discuss proper decorum in my courtroom," he said. "when there is a witness on the stand, if you don't like my ruling, you don't say geez, okay? you don't say, strike it, because i'm the only one that can strike testimony in the

courtroom. do you understand that?" costello responded with, "i understand." but the exchange only grew more tense. judge merchan saying, "okay. and then if you don't like my ruling, you don't give me side eye. you don't roll your eyes. do you understand that? do you understand that?" costello answered, "i understand that. i understand what you are saying." but judge merchan didn't like the look costello was giving him and said, quote, "are you staring me down right now?" the judge completely cleared the courtroom with press and spectators to speak one-on-one with the witness. judge merchan purposely allowed his conversation to continue on record, adding to court transcripts. he told costello, quote, "i'm putting you on notice that your conduct is contemptuous. if you try to stare me down one more time, i will remove you from the stand. i will strike his entire testimony. do you understand me?" end quote. shortly after that exchange, the prosecution began its cross-examination of costello,

which will continue this morning, joe. an extraordinary moment, and judge merchan making it clear that whatever you are doing to perform for president trump right now, whatever you're trying to do to signal that you are continuing to be sort of a tough guy, a thug on behalf and in defense of president trump, it's not going to work in this courtroom. >> well, exactly. he's playing like the clowns behind him that all come in with their cyborg red ties to an audience of one. >> yup. >> that makes his disrespectfulness toward the judge, far more importantly toward the court, the court system itself, all the more maddening. and why if he were to do it again, he needs to be sent to jail. he needs to be sent to jail immediately. just let's take a step back. judge merchan has had to show restraint while, every day, you

have a defendant going out and attacking him personally, suggesting that he's corrupt, suggesting that the court system is rigged, making it extraordinarily personal toward him and members of his family. i suppose -- and i wouldn't do it. i don't care who the defendants were if i were the judge. they're going to jail. i would bring them in shackles day in and day out. i don't care if it were a democrat, a republican, whether it was a steel worker, a teacher, or the president of the united states. you have to respect the judge because the judge represents the judicial system. i understand the balancing act that this judge is in the middle of, willie, but you take everything in its totality. maybe it is harder to send a former president to jail for contempt when any other

american, any other american, any other american would be sent to jail. >> that is correct. >> this double standard stuff, that somehow donald trump is on the wrong end of the double standard, is just, as aristotle used to say when debating socrates, bullshit. there are two standards, willie. donald trump benefits from the double standards every single time. now, the defendant's witnesses are doing the same. again, i've never seen this. i've never seen this before in a court from a witness, because if i did, well, you'd see the back of them going to jail. the next morning, they would be wearing orange. >> you're right. judge merchan has been walking this line for months now, frankly. every ruling he makes, every decision he makes with a consideration of the circumstances around this case. you have a former president who perhaps wants you to put his witness in jail or maybe even

wants you to put him in jail. let's bring into the conversation former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor chuck rosenberg. former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. the host of "way too early" white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire with us, as always, as well. good morning to you all. chuck, how extraordinary is what we saw yesterday? are you surprised that judge merchan did not, in fact, hold this witness in contempt, or did the circumstances prevent him from actually taking that step? >> a little bit of both, willie. i think judge merchan over the course of this trial has demonstrated great patience, thoughtfulness. frankly, that's what you want in a judge always, all the time, even under these circumstances. i don't fault judge merchan for not holding mr. costello in contempt or ordering him to lock up for a night. i think he handled it exactly the right way. you stop the proceedings. importantly, you send the jury

out because they don't need to hear any of this. this should not factor into their determination at all. you read the guy the riot act. then, and then if he does it again, if he doesn't get it, if he didn't hear the message loud and clear, there are other remedies. but as a first step, i think he handled it exactly right. >> lisa, it is almost like the gag order with president trump. i'll give you a warning, another warning, charge you a thousand bucks every time. you see where this is going? to donald trump. in this case, to the witness, knock it off. i don't want to have to do the thing i could do. >> yesterday, to your point, willie, sort of went in stages. the first thing he did was to ask the jury to leave, and that's when he gave the recitation about, i hear your geez, see your side eye. it's time to knock it off. at one point in the recitation, when merchan thinks that costello is staring him down, he says, "are you staring me down?" that's when he cleared the courtroom of all the press. you can see in the transcript, the press is absolutely furious at having been told to leave the

room. but what merchan is trying to do in that moment is deprive costello of the audience he wants. it is less about the press and depriving us of our first amendment rights and more about ensuring that costello doesn't get to continue to be performative in the moment and that he gets the opportunity to say to him without anybody else there, stop being contemptuous. that has a meaning. knock it off. when the cameras went back on in the overflow room, people started laughing. the face that bob costello was giving was a markedly different one. it was a combination of embarrassed and angry. merchan, by contrast, leaning back in his seat looking at costello like this, knowing, i have regained control over my courtroom. >> wow. >> it was really something to behold. >> chuck, i'm wondering, just big picture, how much headway had the defense made up until this moment, and how much did this interaction, which i guess was kept on the record for quite

some time, even after the jury left, how much did the incident undermine that headway, if any? >> well, they did make some headway. youth expect the defense to make some headway on cross. with mr. cohen, they showed he was a liar and a thief. mr. costello, who defense called as their own witness, they were making the point that michael cohen had made inconsistent statements. you know, is that helpful to the defense? it is. was this blowup helpful to the defense? it was not. however, the lecture by judge merchan, i think completely earned by mr. costello, was out of the earshot of the jury. again, completely appropriate. did the jury see, mika, what led up to it? of course they did. they understood what was happening. they may not have known what happened when they were gone, but they certainly knew why they are gone. none of that is helpful. i think lisa is right, some of this is performative. it's certainly for mr. trump. i don't know how that helps his

case. i know the jury knows everything. they always do. >> to chuck's point, john, we just saw a transcript of some of the testimony up on the screen, that the defense did get michael cohen to admit, yes, i stole from the trump organization, about $30,000, money that was supposed to go somewhere else. trying to make the case that he, himself, is a con artist. that he, himself, a liar. in this case, a thief. suggesting that the prosecution is sort of hanging its hat on this witness who you should not believe. that's the argument from the defense anyway. >> right here on the "new york post." "liar, con artist, thief." that's how they're deeming michael cohen with the editorial slant. look, cohen admitted to most of this, including the theft. he stated that previously. he overbilled a company he was supposed to reimburse. he took some off top there. you know, we know who he is. we have known for a long time who michael cohen is. lisa, he is someone who spent time in prison because he lied under oath. >> yeah. >> but let's talk beyond the pr stunt here, beyond the front

page of the tabloids. do we think the defense undermined cohen's credibility enough where it'll hurt the case, or had the prosecution done enough to buttress it? >> i think the prosecution did a really good job of drawing the sting and bringing out some of those facts well in advance of any cross-examination. you noted the $30,000 that michael cohen took. while yesterday was the first time he said in stark terms, "i stole it," the prosecution first raised the issue, you kept the $30,000. when todd blanche said all the things he said about stealing it, he opened the door wide open to an explanation of, what was the $50,000 reimbursement for again? that gave michael cohen an opportunity to say, "oh, i'm glad you asked. you know what it was? i paid a tech company to rig a poll about the most popular businessmen of the last century." what they did was basically rig the algorithm, so donald trump's ego would be satiated. "he directed me to do this. i did it for his benefit."

basically, giving the jury yet another example of, here is michael cohen committing another crime or another misdeed for the benefit of, at the direction of, in coordination with donald trump. i think it was a mixed bag for the defense yesterday. >> chuck, i'm curious. i mean, as we're watching this, and we don't do day in and day out what you all have done throughout your life, how do -- you say juries don't miss anything. brilliant insight. how, though, for those of us who haven't followed this our entire life, proceedings like this our entire life, how does the jury sort through the fact that the guy has lied, that the guy admits on the stand that he stole money from the trump organization? how do they sort through that and lend any credibility to his testimony? >> right. michael cohen, liar, cheater, thief. the government has never run away from those facts, and they are facts, joe.

because the defense has also elicited those sorts of admissions doesn't make it any more true or less true. he is what he is. the jury has known that from opening statements. the important thing here, and we do this all the time as prosecutors when we use cooperators. by the way, why do we use them? they're around when the crime was committed, and they know stuff. it's that simple. mr. cohen has been corroborated by lots of other witnesses and lots of other documents. is that sufficient to convict? yes, it is sufficient to convict. will the jury convict? who knows? i mean, i can't tell you what would happen in my own cases, let alone what will happen in this case. but i can tell you that by corroborating mr. cohen with other witnesses and important documents, the jury has everything they need to convict. they know who he is. that has never been hidden by the jury. by the way, it'd be a mistake by the government not to deduce

these things about mr. cohen. it was their job to tell the jury everything. they've done it. the defense appropriately cross examined mr. cohen on these very same facts. but the jury has what it needs. >> lisa, the prosecution rested yesterday. it feels it has made its case. now it goes to the defense. you've been digging through the transcripts in court. give us some window of whether they will or will not call witnesses and how quickly this might wrap up. >> they called two witnesses yesterday. the first was a paralegal of theirs who put phone data into a summary chart. very quickly dismantled by the prosecution, who shows that michael cohen and bob costello didn't, in fact, talk 75 times. there was double counting or calls between, for example, costello's law firm where cohen also had a friend, putting in doubt the frequency of the communication between the two. the second witness was bob costello, who remains on cross-examination. last page of the transcript yesterday, always read the transcript, has todd blanche

saying, assuming we'll finish by 10:00ish, 10:15ish, are we going straight to the charge conference or will that be in the afternoon? todd blanche basically saying, i think we're going to be done with all our witnesses by 10:15. if that holds, that means, conclusively, donald trump is not taking the stand. >> the judge did say, right, lisa, that closing arguments won't happen until next week. we're not getting a verdict. >> court is out tomorrow and friday. even if the parties were to sum up thursday, doesn't give the jury opportunity to start deliberating by a long weekend. judge decided that is not in anybody's interest or the interest of justice. >> read the transtranscript, sa lisa rubin. she's always right, mika. >> that is true. legal correspondent lisa rubin and former u.s. attorney chuck rosenberg, thank you, both, very much for the updates this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," iran is beginning several days of funeral ceremonies following the sudden death of the country's president and

foreign minister. nbc's keir simmons joins us with the latest on the investigation into the helicopter crash that killed them and the implications for iran's leadership. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. (♪♪) i'm getting vaccinated with pfizer's pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine. so am i. because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. come on. i already got a pneumonia vaccine, but i'm asking about the added protection of prevnar 20®.

if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes, copd, or heart disease, or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. prevnar 20® is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. in just one dose. don't get prevnar 20® if you've had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. adults with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects were pain and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, fatigue, headache, and joint pain. i want to be able to keep my plans. i don't want to risk ending up in the hospital with pneumococcal pneumonia. that's why i chose prevnar 20®. ask your doctor or pharmacist about the pfizer vaccine for pneumococcal pneumonia. iran's supreme leader has called for five days of national mourning following the helicopter crash that killed the country's president and foreign

minister. among others. a funeral for the president will be held in the capital city of tehran tomorrow, which has been declared a national holiday by the ayatollah. the crash is now under administration according to one semi-official iranian news agency. joining us now from the gulf region is nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons. keir, what's the latest in terms of reaction in the region and the investigation? >> reporter: well, mika, we're seeing what can only be described as incredibly impactful pictures from the city in iran, where two of the officials killed in the helicopter crash were from. huge crowds in the streets and in the city of tebreis, as the

coffins of raisi and the foreign minister, others killed, make their way through the streets. people reaching out to touch the coff coffins, carrying iranian flags and pictures of raisi. emotional scenes. of course, what you don't see in the pictures are the iranians who are opposed to the iranian regime, who criticize the regime for executing dissents, for arresting journalists, for clamping down, crushing protests, like, for example the protests for women two years ago. there are men and women in tears in the crowds. around the world, you're seeing outside iranian embassies with celebrations. online, women opposed to the regime celebrating the death of these officials. as you mentioned, this funeral will be carried out over a series of days. first there and then the bodies taken tonight to tehran, where the funeral will be held again

tomorrow and then for president raisi, moving on to his hometown. five days of mourning announced by the supreme leader. there are, of course, huge political implications from what happened, with the death of the president in this helicopter crash. we understand from images from tv crews on the ground, how it was he did not survive. rescuers took hours to reach them. we're hearing from the u.s. government, the state department, saying that -- and it is a sign, i think, of the panic in the ensuing hours, that iran reached out. a rare moment of diplomacy amid the animosity between the u.s. and iran. they reached out for help. state department saying that it was not able to help because of logistical reasons. at the same time, these reports that president raisi might be a

successor to the supreme leader, that is a very opaque process. we managed to reach an adviser to the iranian government in tehran. what he told us was that, in fact, mr. raisi was not on the official list. take a listen. >> well, president raisi has nothing to do with the leader, contrary to what some people in the west were saying. he was not any candidate for the position of leader. the current leader is very healthy, as people see. he is regularly in the public view. when the time comes, the counsel in the constitution will choose a new leader.

as in the past, the country will move forward. >> reporter: joe, we know the supreme leader is 85. he has faced a number of health crises, but that adviser telling me from tehran that iranian foreign policy won't change. i think from what we heard from the u.s., talking about condolences but also talking about support for the people of iran who stand up to the regime, i think the evidence is now at this stage, i think we can say, that the death of the president of iran is not likely to change things fundamentally, at least not in the short term. >> all right. nbc's keir simmons coming to us from the region, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. former supreme allied commander of nato, four star navy admiral james stavridis. chief international analyst for nbc news. when i was young, i heard, we're a man with nothing to lose. you can say the same for

countries. but where are the countries with nothing to lose by striking out? you can look at russia. as we heard earlier last week, they have a demographic time bomb going off. they have a weakening economy. putin flexed his muscles, went to ukraine. we can go down the list of china's problems and the reason we fare them. here, you have economic decline, political unrest that's been going on for the last decade, simmering under the surface, and now the death of their president and foreign minister. what fears do you have that they may strike out during this time of weakness? >> it's a legitimate thing. i'll add to the list north korea, a starving dictatorship without a lot of global options open to them. the ayatollahs are on a one-way street. they cannot turn around.

they cannot get out of what is building behind them. what is building behind them, you used the d-word a moment ago, demographics. this is an extremely young society, increasingly urban. they're not looking to live the life the ayatollahs are offering them. so this kind of event creates, you know, an internal bubbling, in addition to the whole "game of thrones." who is going to be the next supreme leader? all of that, joe, and this is your point and it is a correct one, could, could -- i think it is unlikely, but it could cause them, the ayatollahs, to lash out in order to create a rally around the flag situation in tehran. i think it is unlikely. it is worthy thinking about. u.s. jens are concer intelligen about it. that's why our friend john kirby

shows they're trying to make sure the ayatollahs don't lash out. >> we've seen people in the streets celebrating the death of this president. for generations, the oppressive ayatollahs, repressive autocratic leadership in iran does not fit with young people in the country who have ideas about freedom and democracy and western values in some cases. would a new leader change any of that at all? is there any hope for those young people in iran who want a different kind of leadership? >> back to the one-way street. the crowd behind them is building, and it's not going to go away. i'd point you back two years ago to the terrible death of a young iranian woman in the custody of the, ironically named, morality police of iran. what happened? women and girls led a massive series of uprisings, pretty

remarkable. it is a pretty good indicator of the crowd that's behind the ayatollahs building. they know it. there's real risk for them internally. >> admiral, there really is. jonathan lemire, the risks are real, as willie pointed out, and the admiral, from a younger, growing demographic. we saw those scenes a few years ago. we saw middle schoolgirls defiantly chant against a once feared and loathed regime. you go back even to -- and it's not just western values that they seek. certainly, the younger, more urban iranians do, but, also, there are people who are devout muslims. one of the most jarring things for the religious leaders, starting with the green movement back well over a decade ago, is often the very people they were oppressing were chanting, allah

akbar, shouting it from the roofs, saying, "we are muslims. this is a holy fight against an oppressive and corrupt iranian regime." whether they call themselves mullas or not, the divisions are stark. >> the regime has been oppressive in trying to put it down. admiral, i have some new reporting this morning about how, on sunday, there were a few hours where those in the white house and the nsc were deeply concerned. >> yeah. >> when this helicopter crash happened, that iran would try to blame the u.s. or israel for it. potentially escalate a conflict which could snowball into something catastrophic. even as one person put to me, this could be the first moments of world war iii. thankfully, iran has not done that, at least not yet. they acknowledged there was mechanical failure that led to the crash. with things so precarious in the region, how would you say israel

and the other gulf states will proceed in this moment of potential change for iran? >> it is the right question to be asking, jonathan. to nail it directly, we will give iran space at the moment, and it is in our interest to do so. just kind of step away from the car here. let the iranians figure this out internally. don't do anything that causes them to provoke their population and lash out. i think a key thought here, we've been talking a lot about islam and the religion inside, don't forget, in the region, there is a huge division between the shia branch of islam, led by iran, and the sunni branch, led by the kingdom of saudi arabia, by egypt, by jordan. these are ancient rivalries, much akin inside christianity to the wars of the reformation between catholics and

protestants, which lasted a couple of hundred years. there's plenty of tension to go around. i think all sides here, including israel, u.s., and the sunni arabs, need to stand back, let the iranians have their moment. we'll deal down range with the challenges from tehran. >> before we let you go, admiral, let's switch topics and talk about ukraine. obviously, ukrainians in a desperate struggle to hold on to kharkiv, asking for the united states and nato allies to shoot down russian missiles. we've obviously it shall what -- what we're seeing unfold is the delayed impact of donald trump, speaker johnson, house republicans delaying aid to ukraine. it's just not getting there quickly enough. it's because of the months' long delay. what do we need to do in the interim before they get all the

equipment they need to stop russia's push, not only into kharkiv but always ever closer to kyiv? >> number one, it's get them the artillery shells. the 155 howitzer rounds, the projectiles that can have real effect on the front line. those are stacked, ready to go, under command of the nato commander, general chris cavoli. the quicker we accelerate that, the better. get the f-16s into the game. it'll affect air defense and help ukrainians close the skies. third and finally, long-range surface to surface missiles, the atacms. all these things are moving. the months of delay, frankly, unconscionable. we can still recover. kharkiv can be saved, but it is going to require all hands on deck at this moment for ukraine.

>> all right. retired admiral james stavridis, thank you very much for coming on this morning. we appreciate it once again. coming up, our next guest is using modern research techniques to examine how celebrities, such as taylor swift, stanley, and the beatles, came to be household names we know today. best-selling author cass sunsteen joins us with his book, "how do become famous." that's next on "morning joe."

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do you wish fans wound listen more instead of screaming at concerts? >> we've proved we can be heard and screamed at all at once. >> if the people want to scream, it's up to them. they've paid to get in. are we to say what they should do when they get in? >> how long did it take you to grow your hair, and how often do you wash it? >> it's always been faily long, so doesn't take long to grow. we use any kind of shampoo. >> that was the beatles taking questions from fans before a concert in chicago back in 1965. while the fab four had gotten

used to screaming crowds by that point, their superstardom was not always a sure thing. joining us now, best-selling author and harvard law professor cass sunstein. he's out with a new book entitled "how do become famous, einstein, superstars, and how the beatles came to be." how it came to be that you'd write this book is where we'll start. you say it is the funnest book you've ever written or experience you've had. >> yeah, i learned one day there was a journal called the journal of beatles studies, and i thought it'd be improbable and really fun for me to write for the journal of beatles studies. i tried to write about music but knew nothing about music, so it was awful. this changed being a paper about beatles mania and how it started. >> you missed a major reference, joe scarborough. ask any question about the

beatles, and in a freakish way, he'll know the answer. >> mika is disturbed by it, cass. >> i am. >> the beatles were not inevitable. i remember reading one time, george martin -- and you write about this -- he didn't even want to do them. he did comedy records. when he first heard their songs, he was like, eh, maybe there's one or two we can find in there. another record exec said the boys won't go. of course, there is the famous line from the record producer, bands with guitars, they're on their way out. yet, two years later, they were the biggest force in music history. how did these kids from liverpool take over the world? >> well, they were really good. that was the first thing. also, they were really lucky. so they had repeated rejections in england. they couldn't get a record deal.

it happened that brian epstein, he just wouldn't give up. it also happened that on the day that "please please me," the song with martin, the second hit, the night that it was displayed live, they played live in england, there was the biggest snowstorm in 100 years. everyone was staying home. that helped vault them. they also had some people in one of the record studios who quite liked them and improbably really pushed them hard after repeated rejections. after john and paul said, "i think we're not going to make it, we should maybe give up." >> interesting. >> of course, mr. epstein, as they called him, would not give up either. just kept fighting for them. let's go to the other part, the underlying part of the book that is really, i think, just as fascinating, more fascinating. you and i are both old enough to know that, often, i can say in my case, some of the greatest guitarists i've ever met, some

of the greatest musicians i've ever met, some of the greatest graphic artists, some of the greatest artists i've ever met through the years just never got out of their hometowns. the sparks, as you say, didn't click right for them. talk about that. >> well, there's a bunch of studies saying that the reason people get successful or famous is they're amazing. maybe there was something about determination. maybe there's something about persistence. maybe there was something about talent. that's not false entirely. you have to be really good usually to be like the beatles, and the beatles were amazing. but you need some breaks. you need some serendipity and some champions, and you need a network. if you look at great literary figures like john keatts or jane austin, they weren't thought to be completely amazing in their time. keatts thought he failed.

he died young and thought he had -- his ambitions hadn't worked out. if you look at herman melville, he wasn't a big success, or vincent van gogh, or robert johnson, the great blues guitarist. something happens in your lifetime, like brian epstein for the beatles, or something happens where you're struck by lightning. that happened for taylor swift when she was very, very young. it's often what happens in the world and not happens in your training period that turns you from a nobody into an icon. >> well, of course, willie, underlying all of those examples, if you talk about the beatles, you know, it's the 10,000 hour rule. the beatles would play 24 hours a day in hamburg. they'd fall asleep on their feet. they left liverpool, went to hamburg, and then they were an extraordinarily tight band. taylor swift, my god, she knew what she wanted to be from the very beginning and worked,

worked, worked. van gogh struggled, failed at hundreds of things, was just a miserable failure at hundreds of things until he figured out in a flash what he was a master at. so it is, not to sound like an old dad, but even though it takes luck, underneath it all is talent and hard work, hard work, hard work, hard work. >> yeah. unbelievable will to be successful and navigating everything that has to be navigated. cass, i was thinking as you and joe were talking about music, stand-up comedians. the most famous stand-up comedians you can think of. ask who their favorite stand-up is, and almost invariably, it is somebody you've heard of or haven't at all, and they say, "he is the funniest guy ever men. for whatever reason, he didn't push as hard as we pushed or wasn't interested." taylor swift a great songwriter,

a great performer. she would probably tell ya, there are other great songwriters and performers who never got even close to where she is. what is it about that will that makes people famous and gets them into this elite class? >> okay. i think we want to be really careful here. the number of people who have a force of will is very large, and the percentage of those who do well is very small. force of will might be a necessary condition for spectacular success, though i bet you can find a thousand people who did really, really well in music or literature who kind of had some will but not a particular force of will. think of stanley, for example. the guy behind marvel cosmics. did he have fantastic force of will? kind of. he also had a stroke of luck. he thought, i'm not going to do these boring comics about people with square jaws who say, "up, up, and away." i'll do something with smarsmart

alecs and personalities. it was a stroke of creativity combined with an audience that vaulted him to stan leeness, rather than stan lee himself being sufficient. >> the new book is "how to become famous, lost einsteins, forgotten superstars, and how the beatles came to be." harvard law professor, cass sunstein, always good to see you. congratulations on the book. >> thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," 16-time grammy-winning singer alicia keys will join us live in studio to talk about her hit broadway musical "hell's kitchen," which is nominated for 13 tony awards. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪♪

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beautiful look at the white house here in washington, d.c., on a beautiful, sunny tuesday morning. it is 54 past the hour. time for a look at some of today's morning papers. "the arizona republic" leads with the growing wildfire north

of scottsdale. the wildcat fire nearly tripled in size in the last 24 hours, burning more than 14,000 acres of land as of this morning. officials say the fire has been difficult to tame due to hot, dry, windy conditions. in texas, "the houston chronicle" reports residents are reeling from the deadly storm that swept through the state last week. an eighth death has been confirmed, resulting from the storms while over 180,000 residents are still without power. several school districts without a/c will be closed today with temperatures expected to climb into the 90s. "the kansas city star" reports that victims who were wounded during the shooting at the chiefs super bowl parade in february will soon begin receiving assistance. the kc strong fund was established three months ago in partnership with the chiefs. victims wounded at the parade,

as well as first responders and violence prevention organizations are expected to receive payments from the fund at the end of june. and in ohio, "the columbus dispatch" is highlighting a lawsuit from the aclu that argues the state's latest voting law violates the rights of americans with disabilities. the law, which passed last year, restricts who can return absentee ballots for others. the aclu says the law makes it more difficult for those who are hospitalized or homebound because of an illness or disability. it makes it impossible for them to vote. proponents say it'll prevent ballot harvesting, where third parties return completed ballots on someone else's behalf. coming up on "morning joe," we'll go over yesterday's fiery moments from donald trump's criminal trial, including the heated exchange between judge merchan and a key witness for the defense. plus, live reporting from

outside the courtroom when proceedings resume a few hours from now. also ahead, from wall street to the white house and back, former trump communications director anthony scaramucci joins us with his new guide to, quote, unbreakable resilience. katty kay is here, as well. "morning joe" will be right back.

made immediately when the story broke, which is the hole in the logic here a guy down the street has been yelling at me and saying mean things to me i don't like the guy down the therefore, i'm going to display a symbol of insurrection and say i think the election was stolen. i'm not sure how we connect the dots. i wase slightly heartened. lindsey graham, of all people, senator lindsey graham condemnei justice alito for allowing the flag to fly upside down over his house. >> it is crazy. >> you'll see upside down flags, this and that. you're like, if you hate americ so much, if the only way you love america is if your guy is in the white house, go somewhere

else. in the '60s, conservatives had thesticker, love it or leave it.t or trump talks about how horrible america is, how it is the worsts country, it's weak. if you don't like it, leave. america is economically stronger than ever relatively to the resy of the world, militarily, most soft power, hard power, go down the list.st universities, yeah, there are crazy professors, and we have problems at universities. we have 19 of the top 20 universities on the planet right here in america. with eh the best medical facility on the planet right here in america. when leaders from across the planet want to send their children to the best schools, they send them to dramerica.ey when leaders and you name it

across the world want to send their loved ones who are sick to be cared for, where do they seno them? not russia,y se not china, theyd them to america. i'm sick and tired of people hating on america. this idea, someone was mean to o my wife so we'll put the flag upside down and stand with people whoup wantedsi to overth an election result, sorry, doesn't wash. >> no, doesn't work at all. i don't think that was the at ws reason. joining thehe conversation,e have pulitzer prize winning columnist and assistant editor of "the washington post," eugenu robinson. we've been talking aboutne avis art. avis' feels like an art segment in the book. >> we'll get there. excited. msnbc contributor mike barnicle is with us. mike, glad you showed up.d u.s. special correspondent for t bbc news, katty kay.y.

katty is co-host for a new podcast. >> wow. >> "the rest is politics." founder and partner anthony scaramucci, author of "from wall street to the white house and eh back," very quickly. jonathan lemire is still with i us, as well., as great to have you all on board. we were talking about the beatles making their break, the willie. i have break, to tell you, if to kids in london right now, you talk to kids in l.a., there's one thing that binds them. that's the much and katty kay's podcast. it is explosive, popular. >> katty and the much. the much can't walk down london streets anymore without people screaming and yelling. katty, talk about your podcast. again, i mean, it's like -- i

>> it's fun. >> -- doing extraordinarily well, and it is so fun. >> go on, anthony. >> thank you, joe. >> i have to -- t willie was going to comment on the air brushing on the front cover of my book.book better than several botox injections, let's face it.ns, l' whoever air brushed the book. >> that's you?r >> that is me in 1983. >> that's me in 1983. joe was there with me.e he was playing his guitar. >> okay. >> >> listen, katty, first of all, it was her idea for the podcast. she brought in the goal hanger people. i'm very lucky to beer on the nh podcast, so thank you, katty, for coming up with the idea.r it's been a lot of fun. >> look, i think for a while, i thought that there was a way to explain america to the rest of the world but also give an outsider's perspective on america. i wanted to do it with anthony because he is funny, smart, and

occasionally, he talks. it's like you, joe.it's i have to lencourage him becau he isco shy and retiring. >> d mm-hmm. >> he has great >>stories and knows everybody. >> i can't read the d prompter, joe. i know you have a problem with that, so iknow thought i would you i can horelate. i can't read the prompter. >> thank you so much. one of many things i can't do. c >> what a moment, right, to be talkinggh about america. >> oh, my gosh, i know. willie, like the much, i am a man of few words. if you can take it from here, i'd greatly appreciate it.te >> you are shy and retiring. anthony says, it is a little like "downton abbey," that katty is upstairs and he's the humble guy from long island, bringing up canguy drinks and food. >> the cameras people know the voracity of that.e they're laughing. >> let's hear someey of this an get your take on the news.ak donald trump's criminal hust money trial resumes this morning after some contentious moments involving a witness for the former s president's defense te. nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett has more onla yesterday's proceedin.

>> reporter: former president oe trump's defense team launching u fiery start to its case, taking direct aim at the credibility of star prosecution witness michael cohen, calling robert costello, a former federal prosecutor and attorney for rudy giuliani, whoh advised cohen before a falling out. costello describing cohen as, h quote, manic. at a 2018 meeting after cohen'sn home and office were raided by the fbi. cohen is now implicating mr. trump in an alleged crime, costello testifying, cohen told him back then,fyin i swear to gr bob, i don't have anything on donald trump. directly refuing cohen's testimony that trump directed him to pay off daniels before the 2016 election. quote, "michael cohen said ch numerous times that president trump knew nothing about those i payments and that he did this on his own." costello testifying.lo the judge repeatedly sustaining prosecution objections, leading to a scolding of costello, who

muttered, ridiculous and gee., the judge saying, are you staring me down?me clearing the courtroom. the all this after cohen revealed he stole tens of thousands of dollars from his former client.r cohen, who once said he'd take a bullet for mr. trump, admitting head duped his own boss to payi him t for than he was owed.s he gave a tech company $20,000 in a brown paper bag and a profited the rest, tens of thousands more for himself.re f todd blanche saying, you stole from the trump organization, right? cohen answering, yes, sir. later when questioned by the lae prosecutor, cohen saying he stole then money because he'd t received a large enough bonus. quote, i just felt it was almost like self-help, cohen said. the defense also suggesting cohen has profited in other ways off his association with the former president. pointing to the fact he raked in over $4 million in consulting g agreements, while also serving as mr. altrump's personal mp's attorney. and the defense says p cohen is now cashing in as a top trump s

critic, too, tomaking over $3 million on two books. cohen testified he's considering a potential tv show and a thirdh book. the defense calling it a motivationin to lie. blanche asking, "do you have a financialking interest in the na outcome of this case?"s cohen saying, "yes, sir." though cohen insisted he'd make more money if mr. trump were acquitted because cohen says, "it gives me more to talk about in the future." cohen's credibility critical to the case.s he is the only witness who has testified the former president had advanced knowledge of the plan to pay stormy daniels and then approved a scheme to disguise how he paid cohen backh which mr. trump denies. >> no crimes. we did nothing wrong. i want to get back to campaigning. i'm representing millions and hundreds of millions of people. >> reporter: cohen in exchange with prosecutors, quote, "do you have any doubt mr. trump gave you the final avsign-off for th payment before you went to the bank?" cohen replying, "no doubt."

>> laura jarrett reporting for e us there. anthony, you know a lot of the players involved here. you've been following this closely. the prosecution rested io yesterday. lisa rubin told us in the last l hour, reading the tea leaves and the transcript, actually, she believes the defense will be finishes today, d as well. closing arguments next week according to the judge. has the prosecution made a convincing case? you never a know what the jury is e ju thinking, but do you believe the prosecution made the case? >> i think the prosecution made the case, but everything about our lives are facts and optics and feel. you know, his testimony probably doesn't feel right tohi many people. theo question is, the judge is going to turnhe to the jury. the criminal procedure in our country is, here are the facts of the case. facts do you believe the facts of the case? does that tip over into beyond a reasonable doubt? if you read the transcript, michel cohen has done that. moreover, michael cohen, it reflected badly on him thatcohe is a teliar, thief, all the this they put in "the new york post,"

but he told the truth on that stand. i think there's evidence of that just by the fact of the way he t told the truth about himself doing very dishonestth things. optics and feel, are there 12 people that are going to take the criminal procedure of the united statesim seriously and cross over to beyond a reasonable doubt? that's the issue.at's >> anthony, you were telling us on the podcast last week that you visited michael cohen when he was in prison. >> mm-hmm. >> the prosecution -- the defense has tried to make it very clear. listen, this guy was a liar all the time. he was a liar then and is lying now. >> right. >> from your relationship with r michael, what makes you so clear, that even know he lied in the past, he's not lying when he's taking the stand now? >> he's damning himself, katty. ultimately, did you steal from donald trump?dil fr yes. did you put the money in aomdonr bag? yes. in other words, like, there's nh room to escape. he is in the corner. he's under oath. he's already gone to jail for

perjury. is he going to re-purger himself in arguably the most important things he'll say in his life up until this point, which is in the case? , reasons, i believe him.elie has he done badve things in the past? yes. has he lied in the past? yes. but is he lying past? right now? i think that's what the prosecutor has to get in front of the jury. but, no, listen, come on, trump is a bad guy. bad what ends up happening to people like michael, and i said this the last time i was here, don't be anybody's groupie. once you are somebody's groupieu you start to mold yourself into what they want you to do.nt y michael did that. he has to reform for that and re pay the price for it, and i think he is paying the price foe it. >> anthonyri -- >> look at the cover of "the new york post." he is paying the price for it. >> you get around, both "tupstas and downstairs.d many friends in different areas of life. >> in and out of the white house. >> days of making a living. >> quickly. >> ordinary people, important

people.peop >> right. >> what's your sense of the impact this trial is having on the general public? not here where we talk about it each and every day but average people out there. do they have any interest at alt in this? >> i think they have mild m interest. i think there is ail large grou of independents that have, hey, is he a h convicted felon or no i think there is a binary thing that goes on in some people's minds relatedn to that. i think don't underestimate the idf/abortion situation for the formortier president and the republican party. democrats would be wise to play that over and over again come november. you know, trump c knows this.p n he is trying to offer up a moderate position onr abortion. the thing i'd say to the biden camp, you guys have to wake up. stop placating to the hard left and move into theth center here. this is where this is going to be won by those independents. >> on thatos issue, the biden campaign committee has to wake up. >> yeah. >> in 2020, in may of 2020, when

donald trump was president, ovet 100,000 americans had died of covid. why isn't the obiden campaign focusing on the first few montho of 2020 and the numbers of people who died of covid when the then president of the united states was telling people, just go drink antifreeze? it'll go away. >> i think it is a tough thing to say.ou a lot of that stuff was outside of the president's control. the president himself, meaning r president biden, knows some of that stuff is situational. we can personalize it under president trump, but i don't think they want b to do that an more than they want to take personally the inflation. if donald trump was president of the united states today, this would be trump's inflation. we have a tendency to personalize onto presidents what is, in fact, cyclical ycli situational. il don't think mr. trump, mr. inbiden, you pick the president, you know -- look, were things esmishandled?mi

certainly. but that was a really tough period of time in the united states. >> oh -- of go want tnk we want to there. >> anthony, i would say he did lie to the american people about the existence of covid for quite some time. >> okay, that's different. >> you listen to bob woodward. people died. >> talk about the lies. he's been in the courts, mika.rt they say he is a rarapist. you have 12 people in a civil n court, not a criminal court, saying he is a rapist. i'd be talking about thing likei that. the lying, he h aas been define as a enrapist by a civil jury. those are the things i'd be bringing up over and over againa i think the deaths, i think, are something that i think they're probably trying to beat careful of. the lg ying, no question. the other facts about him, no question. pound him every day on those y n facts. >> i think the problem here, gene probinson, is, you know, k can say theno campaign needs toe wake up, or why aren't they w talking about covid four hyyear ago, or why aren't they -- you could go on for a thousand time with lists of things to bring

up. >> yeah. >> that's the firehose of fire disinformation, of lies, of damage that, some would argue, trumpd has sort of put forwardo this country. >> right. >> that's, by the way, if you look at how fascism begins, it is chaos. it isit overload.s there is an inability to sort or wrap your arms around what is rr happening. >> yeah. i think, i mean, it is a truism because it is true, that if you're talking about everything you're talking about nothing. >> right, exactly. >> there are ahi ngthousand thih literally, youin could talk abo from the trump years. if you talk about a thousand t things, none of them will break through.l br so, you know, the biden campaign and the democrats have to make choices. they have to choose what to focus on. you can question whether they'rr choosing wisely. >> right. >> but they do have to make to choices. i do have a question for m estif anthony. i smiled when you talked about becoming groupies, right. i thought of that day when

members of congress, members of the u.s. congress all showed upu at trump's trial wearing red ties. you know, i mean, that's like almost manson family level of groupiness. but, you know, you are part of the business community.e bu leaving the republican party aside, i think the republican party is done for now. but, you know, these private equity guys, these tech guys, h not just peter thiel but others who are saying nice things about trump and who are sort of, some of them,rt raising money for trump. what is that about? is that about personal interest, do youpe think? where do you think that's coming from? and how big or serious do you er think it is?

>> it's like a rotisserie of ru rubes, if you don't mind me saying it that way. you get caught up with him, he may win, and there is a superficial superficiality. katty lives in the united kingdom. gene, we have no hereditary memory of fascism in the country. no field trips to normandy in france or auschwitz in germany or poland. in the united states, the america first movement was put down by franklin roosevelt. this country has no hereditary experience with the spector and scourge of fascism.of when someone wants a unified reich, putting it out in a 30-second campaign video, if you understand fascism, you have a five-alarm bell going off in your head.ve you have to get out therofe tofa

podium, a microphone, a camera, and explain toop the american people the danger of how these people think. but those men you're describing, mostly men, frankly, not many womeny, that are raising him money, are doing it for superficial, personal, economic interest. they're not understanding the full balance of what's at stakes here as it relates to the separation of powerat in the united states. you have several supreme court justices, frankly, you hear executive power expansion or unitary executive power, which basically means they want to push out the legislative and tha judicial branch of the united states. b unite you have guys who are running flags upside down at their houses, okay? that is despicable, and it needn to be called out by people that actually really love the country and love the messiness of our democracy and our system.r >> you know, willie, this is a w great opportunity for us, and you can talk to anthony about

this. we can continue discussing because i thinkon we need to ke bringing it up. the fact that it is not just these people on wall street that are making billions of dollars that are all in. a you and i have talked about what, you know, guys and women u going to theys country club who you know, think it's cool. first of all, think it's cool to call joe biden a socialist whilc they're going to the country 'rn club. as they get out of their mercedes or whatever, range rover, and they're looking at oo their phone to seeki the dow is over 40,000 and they've just made $200,000, $300,000 before they go on the range, shout wha a socialist nation we are. i look at these people and go, wait a second, you're actually going to support a guy that's promised you he is going to be a dictator on day one?

that he is going to assassinate his political opponents, and he can't be arrested for that if he is in office. that he is going to arrest members of the press who are criticalme of mbhim.itical these are things that he has promisedconstitution. assassinate the chairman of the joint chiefs.t i could go on and on.n you can take any one of those ts things, any one of those things, and it would have been would ha disqualifying in the past. yet, as our friend jon meacham would say, you know, the peter millar vest-wearing crowd going to the country club, sitting around talking like this is a college football game and they'resowe picking sides.e pik do they not see that this guy has promised, he is promising to behe an authoritarianism. he is talking about, you know,

getting elected again after 2024. it's like, we know who trump iso this isn't about trump. about this isn't about trump. this is about those people who are deciding, instead of choosing democracy, american democracy, they're going to choose donald trump. by the way, i just -- one final thing, too. if i hear one more time that we should not be critical of what happened on january 6th because joe biden is trying to forgive student debt, i keep hearing , p that. i heard it again over the hea weekend. oh, well, yeah, of course. you criticize donald trump and say he isu attacking democracy but look what joe biden tried to do regarding the forgiveness of student loans. how stupid do they think we are? they give, you know, moral

equivalency a bad name.y a bad it's just outrageous and, yet, they're trying to convince themselves of this because, somehow, a dow that's over 40,000 is still not enough. >> yeah.ough i think the term mecum has used, and i'll check with him to make sure i get theh quote right, io the men's grill enabled. the guys sitting around the country club saying, yeah, he's not that bad. way, are people, by the anthony knows this better than anybody, in 2015, let's call it, who mocked donald trump, who live in the world you lived don. >> they're with jeb. >>in the guy is a joke. i'd never do business with him. by 2016, they're all in on donald trump. part of what you hear is, oh, he's not going to do all the stuff he talks about doing.al you cover it too much. too or they know somewhere deep inside that it is not going to affect them, nonot going to tou their nlives, whatever authoritarianism may be coming, so they feelit protected in som way by a guyte they relate to.

>> willie, he uses the word gestapo privately. he's told defense lawyers, i'm going to use the fbi like the gestapo. the only thing is, he's never read history so we doesn't even know what the gestapo really is. it is dangerous. it is incredibly dangerous. but he's done aib magnificent j of what i call the lie combovere the hair is combed over.s he isco combing over every day when he gets out and says another lie. this is ridiculous.is this is i false. don't listen. don't pay attention. hest knowens through propaganda, reinforcement of a lie, saying it over and over and over againi there's millions of people that believe him, even though they can see the thing clearly, they believe him. that's a y,danger. that has worked throughout civilization. that worked in nazi germany. it n worked in other places in e government. it's worked in p africa. it works in south america.

it is his playbook and he uses it every ndday.it e if you call him out, you end up on miss enemies.s i was out with two of his enemies, won't mention names, but worked for him, and we're on the list of people he is going to come after, quote, unquote, once he gets back ese in the office. but he's not going to win, okay? i'm very, very clear about this. he is not going to win because there's one thing about him tha i do love, it's the self-destruction, okay, and he imploded during covid. d he's going to implode between tw now and november. just watch howw this thing unfolds. >> we'll be watching that. w we'll also bee' reading your bo with your high school yearbook photo on the cover. >> 1982. >> go schreiber. >> there ya go. >> "from wall street to the white house and omback."hous you lay out lessons. one is true of you, cultivate joy in your life.y in you are a happy warrior.y even when you were up in that press room, you're blowing kisses and, you know, you're a

always you. >> you have to live yourow lifef willie. what are you going to do? you know, i missized the situation, but what do you do w when you missize the situation?t you heown it. you don't pretend it didn't di' happen. how many of trump's acolytes or people that worked for him know how dangerous and fdishonest h is but they're afraid to own it and afraid to speak the truth about what actually happened?y >> anthony, what is the difference between now and others who erwent into trump's orbit in the first white house, came out andbi didn't manage to kind of shake off what had happened to them in that ened experience? a lot cameat out with ptsd. nikki haley is a rare example of somebody whether came out with her kind ofhe integrity and reputation in tact.n you take out, have been tracked by o trump, and came back again >> i think it is fear. it is self-consciousness. you don't want to be ridiculed. you know, i mean -- >> by him. >> when hehe lights you up on twitter, the first time i was t

lit up on twitter by him, i was as white as this light on the table. he was the president of the united states.tes. then the new york thing kicks w in, and i called him the fattest president since taft. >> you went high, you mean. >> i don't know how to go high. that's why you and i are together. you know how to go high. todon't know how to go high. the point about all of that is you have to tell the truth. if you tell the truth, you're going to sleep very well at night.t i mean, some of these guys are aging like dinosaurs because they sit there and lie on his behalf. i'm not capable of doing that. telling the truth, i think, is the most valuable thing that you can do, and that's what i'm trying to do. t i got things wrong, and i've owned it. >> owning your wmi'istakes is of youris lessons here.r le two of them seem connected to me. tell us a little con about it. beware after your ego. treat everyone else like they're the most important person in the room because they might be. thate li the feels like somethie

walks of life where you travel, that can be challenging at that times. >> no e chquestion. look, i took that job for ego-related reasons. eg wanted to fit a personal narrative. you know, i grew up in ona blue collar family, went to tufts, harvard, goldman, built a business on wall street. now, i get a chance to work for the american topresident. but the american president is, you know, off his rocker.u i didn't care. i was dealing with my pride, my ego, and my narrative. you see what i mean, jonathan? that is very, very dangerous, whether you're an investor or it's youru career, don't make your decisions based on your ego yopride. the second thing is, my grandmother, when she got to the country -- the reason i got in trouble with trump, he was telling congresswomen in the squad to go back to the country they originally came from. on the bill maher show, i said, they said that to my italian-american grandmother, and it upset her. they wanted her to go back to the country she came from. she couldn't get a job.e co

she ended up as a maid. when i'm in a hotel room, i think of the person that is servicing the room. servic they could be somebody's grandmother. i want a gratuity there.y take care of that person.of t just like you, there's another person dealing with the human ma condition. it's a very big lesson from the way we grew up. no matter what station you end s up in life, we're all roughly 'r the same.e let's treat everybody with kindness. >> good life tip. i don't know why it isn't more widely known, tip housekeeping. >> come on. >> the new book with the full endorsement of arnold schwarzenegger on the back is titled, "from wall street to the white house and back." anthony scaramucci, great to ser you. listen to anthony and katty's podcast, ka"the rest is politic" the "downton abbey" podcast. is that helpful? >> whatever cells. >>help exactly. >> that's what we were going for. >> that'se it. >> he knows how to move merchandise. good to see you guys. >> sell the books, willie.

ahead on "morning joe," rudy giuliani is expected to appear in court in arizona today after he taunted prosecutors on social media and they served him s papers. we'll explain. plus, we'll dig into international developmens connected to the warde in gaza with the criminal court seeking warrants for leaders on both eao sides. the white house reacting to o that. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.th>

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welcome back to "morning joe." it is 35 past the hour. multiple defendants in arizona's fake electors' scheme are expected to arraigned later this morning in a phoenix courtroom. some will make their appearance in person, while others will appear virtually. one of the defendants expected to appear is former trump lawyer, rudy giuliani. the former new york city mayor taunted arizona authorities on social media on friday night, bragging that he had not been served with papers, while posting a picture of his birthday party in florida. that post helped arizona attorney general figure out his location and have him served. not smart. joining us now, former fbi director james comey. he is the author of the new book entitled "westport, a crime

novel." welcome back to the show. we'll get to your novel in a moment. it's good to have you on. i'd love to ask you this question. given everybody this country has been through to the run-up of the 2016 election, which you've been asked repeatedly about your choices and actions before the 2016 election and you have answered you did what you thought you had to do, but given the magnitude of all the counts against donald trump, 87 plus the civil lawsuits and liabilities that have been put on him, do you think there are any areas where, if so, is the law falling short in the prosecution of donald trump? >> i think, first of all, thank you for having me on. i think the law could move more quickly, especially in the classified documents case in florida. the case could move more quickly in the appeals process in the january 6th federal case. i think, overall, the law passed its stress test the last five years. the manhattan case is showing

the american people, this is how it works. this is what the rule of law looks like. >> hmm. >> let's get your evaluation of what you've heard of the trial so far. it's in the closing hours. defense may end up resting today. next week, closing arguments and then to the jury. verdict could come in a week, ten days' time, hard to say. what is your assessment of how the prosecution has done? >> better than i expected reading the indictment. i've tried a lot of cases, so it is dangerous to talk about them when you haven't been in the courtroom for every moment. this seems to have gone very well. built brick by brick in a way that's not cross-examinable, with documents and texts and the defendant's own voice. much better than i expected. i told my family, from the outside, i would think this is a very high likelihood of construction. less likely of a hung jury. approaching zero for an acquittal. >> there is a strong possibility that donald trump may be re-elected as president of the

united states this fall. when you think about it, given your vast experience in the justice department and as head of the fbi, what are the principle points of danger within the justice department if there is another trump presidency, given his nature, given what you know about him? >> he is a threat to the rule of law in america. that's, to me, what this election is about. it's not about policy differences. it's about what kind of country are we going to be? if he has the ability, smarter than he was last time, to use the power of the department of justice and fbi to target his enemies especially, the rule and law of america will change. >> target his enemies, how would he do it? >> in the first term, it was a wish. i want people to go after so and so. go after andrew mccabe, the former deputy director of the fbi. in a second term, he'd go a step further, i'm highly confident, and say, "i want him criminally investigated."

he was close to the bottom of the barrel in his appointees last time. he will be at the very bottom. those are the people who will carry out that order. >> they're there to protect him, not the constitution or rule of law. that'll be the first litmus test, are you loyal to me? everything flows from there. there is an assumption, mr. director, even if he is re-elected, he could make all the cases go away, the federal cases around january 6th, election interference, around the classified documents, as well. is that your read of it when he is sworn in, if he is next january, let's say, for another term, that it all goes away? >> yes. the person who would incite a mob to sack the capitol will dismiss the cases pending against him. >> who is that? he puts somebody in place who makes it go away? >> more likely puts an acting in who dismisses jack smith and they drop the indictment. as simple as that. >> you spoke about the judiciary. donald trump when he comes back has plans to move a whole load

of civil servants to at-will position that politicizes him. could that change the nature of america's civil service writ large? and not just for the trump presidency, potentially if he could do that, why wouldn't a future president do that, too? >> yes, i do think that's where he will go. because what he missed last time is the strength of america, its government, is in the middle layer. >> yeah, we're not just talking about the attorney general. we're going straight through. >> if he is going to fundamentally alter institutions, you have to get rid of the middle layer of stability. that's where he will go. it'll have profound consequences, just not for the next four years but for many years after that. >> mr. director, you have found a new chapter, forgive the pun, in your career, writing the books. successful, first "the central park west." for your latest, moved up 95 or however you like to get up there, into connecticut. book titled "westport."

tell us about the story. >> it is a murder whodunit that is situated in an enormous financial manager hedge fund in a new york suburb. it is my protagonist, nora carlson, is working at the hedge fund and finds herself accused of murder. it is a fun read. the fictionalized world will show them a part of the world they don't get to see, what it is like. >> how do you sit down and write one of these? we had harlan coben on last week, the cover blub for this book, as well. as someone who didn't have experience doing in in your past, how did you get into it? how are you finding it? >> with a lot of help, especially from my wife and my children who give me loving but brutal feedback. >> that's their job. >> it is a joint effort. i've always loved to write. i can picture the people. my protagonist is a composite of four of my children, especially my oldest who is a federal prosecutor. i can close my eyes and hear her

voice and write her much more easily. it's a little bit of memory lane, a little bit of showing people what worlds are like that i know well. and with help to keep it on track for people who love me enough to tell me when i stink. >> well, it seems to be going well. you're getting good advice, apparently. the new thriller is "westport," a crime novel. on sale now. author and former fbi director james comey, great to have you here. >> thank you. coming up, the department of health and human services are hoping a multi-million dollar program will help hospitals with security measures, coming amid ransomware attacks nationwide. we'll discuss that and much more. we're back in a moment.

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the department of health and human services has announced a new $50 million program to encourage hospitals across the country to improve their cybersecurity. this comes amid an uptick in ransomware attacks against the health care industry. just recently, ascension, one of the nation's largest health systems, faced a significant cyber attack that knocked patients' records offline. joining us now, the president of the american medical

association,. doctor. >> say hello to the boys. >> ethan, asher, hello. >> had to get it done for the boys. something americans may not be paying attention to, but something the health care industry has been having for a long time. how bad are ransomware attacks, and what are the consequences? >> we have one-two whammies. in february, we had change health care, united health care, experience a significant cyber, and they've processed a third, half of every health care order in the nation. systems are still down. i've seen five doctors the last few months, and none have been paid. imagine the stress of running a small practice, and you're not getting revenue coming through the door. then we have the latest issue with ascension. the electronic health record is down. i spoke to a physician who said, we have a job if you want to work with a hospital where you're back on paper. imagine trying to run a hospital with none of the systems up and running. the irony of health care in america is we have the best

doctors. we have the best technology, the best medicine, yet, we have this system that's on the brink of collapse because of issues like the cyberattacks. there are challenges for medical payments. the system is unsustainable. 83 million americans don't have access to a primary care doctor. these things are weighing on fi physicians across the nation, making it harder to get access for patients. >> america spends more on health care for gdp. could this be an organized state actor who targeted the health care sy is a lot of concern that it may be state actors that are driving only of these things. we need to make sure the systems are resilient and we have the tools to make sure we can continue continuity of operations. if you need to get your medicines at the pharmacy, you can show up. the first five days of the united healthcare attack, my hospital couldn't fill prescriptions for five days.

it's terrible. >> so there is a storyline we followed during the height of the pandemic about doctors and nurses quitting, burned out, couldn't do it anymore. that led to a shortage particularly among physicians am give us an update. is that the case? is it getting worse? what is being done to remedy it? >> it's gotten a little bit better. two out of three physicians were burned out at the height of covid. lot of people have cut back hours, choose to retire early. we have an aging population and also aging physician work force. 45% of physicians in the u.s. are 55 and older. if you are burned out, tired, exhausted, you may make a decision to do something else. we need to support physicians. underlying policy decisions, pay through the medicare problem, provide resources when there is a cyberattack, things can keep going. get rid of irritating problems like overuse, prior authorization. i don't know if you have had to

fight with an insurance company to get things approved. that is so frustrating and, obviously, that takes away the joy in medicine for a lot of people, like me who went to medical school to put their hand on somebody's shoulder and get them through a difficult situation. >> i am old enough to remember a time when the doctor in town or the doctor in your neighborhood drove a cadillac and was one of the most respected figures you'd ever meet in your life. now you go to a hospital. if you are lucky enough to have a pcp, primary care physician, of your own, it's like being in the office of registry of motor vehicles, it's so busy. where do we find, how do we get more primary care physicians for people and how do we get them to the point they are not taking -- seeing a patient every six minutes in order to make a living? >> we have to expand the work force. we have had a lot more medical schools come online, which is great. we have not expanded residency training programs. you can go to medical school.

if you don't have a place to learn how to be a special list, you are stuck. most of the funding for residency programs is tied to medicare. fixed in the '90s. it's not budged significantly since that time period. unfortunately, until there is more federal support, we will be in a position where we don't have the doctors we need to take care of american patients. >> asking about artificial intelligence, there has been con ter nation how it will be deployed. it has big benefits in the field of medicine? >> 40% of physicians are as excited as they are about a.i. as they are terrified. and we know it will change medicine, change absolutely everything we do. we need to have the right guardrails, fda process for approving a.i.-enabled algorithms and systems. i am excited about it. i have a background in it. there is a lot of opportunity we will see changes coming soon. >> all right. the president of the american medical association making those boys proud back home.

dr. aaron feld, thank you. ahead in our fourth hour, alicia keys will be our guest, talk about her broadway musical hell kitchen nominated for 13 tony awards. we're back in two minutes. a

hour of "morning joe," gene, your latest column for "the washington post," the second amendment fails to protect black americans. explain what you're writing about. >> on may 3rd, a senior airman combat veteran, in fort walton beach, florida, worked at the air force base there, he was in his apartment, hears knocking at the door, pounding, doesn't know

who it is. he is a legal gun owner, and so this pounding is louder and he takes, you know, so he gets his weapon and he is holding it, aiming down at the floor. as he opens the door, turns out to be a sheriffs deputy who is there for reports of a disturbance. he was alone, the man got the wrong apartment, i believe, and that will come out. and so the deputy says, sees the gun, says, step back, and then shoots him six times and then says drop the gun, drop the gun. that sequence of events, it's all captured on body camera. the question is, is the second amendment, does it apply to black people, too? i mean, you know, he is an african american gun owner. he was doing what the nra says

we should do. we should all have guns to protect ourselves and he was in his own home. his home is his castle. he can stand his ground. but he gets immediately, i mean immediately shot. and so i wondered why at the nra convention last week there wasn't just a cry about this. >> of course. >> seems to me, there should have been. for some reason, there wasn't. >> for some reason. we will be following this. gene, thank you. it's always so great to see you. >> great to see you. ahead, expert legal analysis on donald trump's hush money trial, including the judge's dramatic confrontation with a witness for the defense. and we'll dig into the possible geopolitical fallout from the deaths of iran's president and foreign minister. we're back in two minutes with a packed 8:00 a.m. hour.

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been working to paint michael cohen as a sleazy wlier who is hell bent on revenge, conveniently leaving out the fact that trump used him as his own personal porno venmo. >> the prosecution rested their case. when he heard, trump was like, big deal, i have been resting the whole case. >> michael cohen admitted on the stand today, he stole money from the trump organization. only in a donald trump trial would the star witness be the one who ends up going to jail. how lucky is donald trump? donald trump is like a corruption mr. magoo. he is stumbling around, quid pro

quo'ing, metal beams falling around, gets out completely unscathed. >> we have much more from donald trump's criminal hush money trial, including the dramatic exchange in court with a trump ally that led to the judge clearing the courtroom. meanwhile, rudy giuliani and other trump supporters accused of election interference in arizona are due in court today. we'll explain that case. and how prosecutors tracked down the former mayor of new york. the latest out of iran on the death of the country's president and foreign minister in the helicopter crash. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, may 21. joe, there are ways to be in court and there are ways not to be. >> well, we'll talk about it in a minute. i will tell you, and i'll say it again, in most courtrooms in america, certainly in courtrooms

that i grew up around as a young attorney in northwest florida, if a witness acted towards a judge the way this defense witness acted yesterday, the judge would have cleared the courtroom, called in bailiff, sent him to jail. say, we are going to take a recess and let the witness think about this in jail in 24 hours. take him out in cuffs, bring him back the next day. but, obviously, the judge is balancing a lot of different things. we will get to that in a minute. willie, you haven't had a chance to talk about what we talked about a little bit yesterday, and that is the new york knicks of course lost, but what a remarkable team this year. what a remarkable season. what a remarkable fight that they had, even, you know, still getting banged up in the final game, game seven. just the injuries kept coming.

and with indiana shooting 70, 72% from the three-point -- from the three-point area shall the surprise isn't that they lost. the surprise is they got within six points, they had that fight in them to the very end. >> yeah, they were really fun this year, and they literally ran out of players. everybody was hurt. even the guys on the floor in game seven were hurt. indiana deserved to win. they played great. they scored 130 points on the road in a game seven at madison square garden, totally taking the crowd out of it. indiana deserved to win. they move op. they start their series in boston tonight. boston is heavily fared. indiana feels like a hot team right now. the knicks gave its so much to cheer about. if they can get healthy, resign some guys, keep guys around, add one more scorer for jalen brunson, the future is very bright there. a lot to celebrate for knicks fans.

we are disappointed. the truth is, by the end of the series we were on our last leg and hobbling through the end of it. pacers deserve it. it will be fun to watch against the celtics tonight. >> and who would believe, my gosh, the east is crazy. who would have believed what we got in the west? the timberwolves against dallas. don't turn your back on the timberwolves. one of the most exciting teams, mika says. >> she has been on the ant-man bandwagon for a couple of years. that will be fun, too. you got luka. you have anthony edwards, karl-anthony towns, kyrie irving. and new teams, you know, new energy here in the eastern conference finals. should be a lot of fun. let's make the turn to the top story, donald trump's criminal hush money trial. it resumes this morning after contentious moments involving a witness for the former president's defense team. robert costello was called to

the stand looking to further the narrative that michael cohen is motivated by revenge. cohen was considering hiring costello at rudy giuliani's recommendation. costello promised to act as a backchannel to former president trump, but cohen never retained him and the two have feuded publicly ever since. costello testified cohen told him several times that he did not, quote, have anything on donald trump, and that he paid stormy daniels hush money, quote, on his own. costello soon became aggravated after several objections by prosecutors, comments under his breath, this is a witness, and rolling his eyes. this prompted presiding judge merchan to ask the jury to leave before addressing the situation. quote, i want to discuss proper decorum in my courtroom, he said. when there is a witness on the stand, if you don't like my ruling, you don't say japanese, okay? then you don't say strike it, because i am the only one that can strike testimony in the courtroom. do you understand that? costello responded with, i understand.

but the exchange only grew more tense. judge merchan saying, okay, if you don't like my ruling, you don't give me side eye, don't roll your eyes. do you understand that? do you understand that? costello answered, i understand that. i understand what you are saying. but judge merchan did not like the look costello was giving him and said, quote, are you staring me down right now? the judge then completely cleared the courtroom, press, spectators, to speak one-on-one with the witness. judge merchan purposely allowed his conversation to continue on record, adding to court transcripts he told costello, quote, i'm putting you on notice that your conduct is contemptuous. if you try to stare me down one more time, i will remove you from the stand. i will strike his entire testimony. do you understand me? shortly later, the prosecution began cross-examination of costello, which will continue this morning, joe. so an extraordinary moment and judge merchan making it clear,

whatever you are doing to perform for president trump, continuing to be sort of a tough guy, a thug on behalf and in defense of president trump, it's not going to work in this courtroom. >> well, exactly. he is playing like the clowns behind him that all come in with their cyborg red ties to an audience of one. and that makes his disrespectfulness towards the judge. far more importantly, towards the court. toward the court system itself, all the more maddening. why? if it he were to do it again, he needs to be sent to jail. he needs to be sent to jail immediately. let's take a step back. judge merchan has had to show restraint while every day you have a defendant going out and attacking him personally,

suggesting that he is corrupt, suggesting that the court system is rigged, making it extraordinarily personal towards him and members of his family, and i suppose -- i wouldn't do it. i don't care who the defendant were, if i'm the judge, they are going to jail. and i would bring them in shackles day in, day out. i don't care if it were a democrat, a republican, whether it was a steelworker, a teacher or the president of the united states. you have to respect the judge, because the judge represents the judicial system. there are two standards here, willie, and donald trump benefits from those double standards every single time, and now the defendant, the defendant's witnesses are doing the same. again, i have never seen this.

i have never seen this before in a court because, from a witness, because if i did, well, you'd see the back of them going to jail and the next morning they would be wearing orange. >> you're right. judge merchan has been walking this line for months now, frankly. every ruling he makes, with considerations of the circumstances around this case, a former president who perhaps wants you to put his witness in jail or maybe put him in jail. let's bring in former u.s. attorney and msnbc attorney chuck rosenberg, white house bureau chief at politico jonathan lemire. good morning. chuck, let me start with you. how extraordinary is what we saw yesterday? are you surprised that judge merchan did not, in fact, hold this witness in contempt, or did the circumstances prevent him from taking that step? >> a little bit of both. i think judge merchan over the

course of this trial has demonstrated great equanimity, patience, thoughtfulness. frankly, that's what you want in a judge always. all the time. even under these circumstances. so i don't fault judge merchan for not holding mr. costello in contempt or ordering him to lock-up for a night. you stop the proceedings. importantly, you send the jury out because they don't need to hear any of this. this should not factor into their determination at all. you read the guy the riot act. then, and then, if he does it again, if he doesn't get it, if he didn't hear the message loud and clear, there are other remedies. as a first step, i think he handled it exactly right. >> almost like the gag order with president trump. i will give you a warning. another warning. going to charge you a thousand bucks. see where this is going? in this case to the witness, knock it off. i don't want to have to do the thing that i could do? >> yeah.

and yesterday, to your point, willie, sort of went in stages, right, because the first thing he did was ask the jury to leave. that's when he gave the recitation about i hear your side eye, it's time to knock it off. in that recitation, when merchan thinks that costello is staring him down, he says, are you staring me down? and that's when he cleared the courtroom of all the press. you can see in the transcript the press is absolutely furious at having been told to leave the room. what merchan is trying to do in that moment is deprive costello of the audience he wants. it's less about the press and depriving our first amendment rights and ensuring that costello doesn't get to continue to be performative in that moment and gets the opportunity to say to him without anybody else there, stop being contemptuous. that has a meaning. knock it uvalde. and when the cameras went back on in the overflow room, people were laughing because the face that robert costello was giving

was a markedly different one. like a combination of embarrassed and angry. then merchan, by contrast, leaning back in his seat looking at at costello like this, knowing, i have regained control over my courtroom. it was really something to behold. >> so, chuck, i'm wondering, just big picture, how much headway had the defense made up until this moment, and how much did this interaction, which i guess was kept on the record for quite some time, even after the jury left, how much did the incident undermine that headway, if any? >> well, they did make some headway. you expect the defendants to make headway on cross about mr. cohen, for instance. they listed the fact that he is a liar and a thief. with mr. costello, who the defense had called as their own witness, they were making the point that michael cohen had made inconsistent statements. so is that helpful to the defense? it is. was this blowup helpful to the defense? it was not.

however, the lecture by judge merchan i think completely earned by mr. costello was out of the earshot of the jury. again, completely appropriate. did the jury see, mika, what led up to it? of course they did. they understood what was happening. they may not have known what happened when they were gone, but they certainly knew why they were gone. none of that is helpful. some of this is performative. it's certainly for mr. trump. i don't know how that helps his case and i know that the jury knows everything. they always do. >> so, to chuck's point, john, we saw a transcript of some of the testimony up on the screen that the defense did get michael cohen to admit, yes, i stole from the trump organization, about $30,000 of money that was supposed to go somewhere else, trying to make the case that he, himself, is a con artist, a liar, and in this case a thief and suggesting that the prosecution is sort of hanging its hat on this witness who you should not believe. that's the argument. >> it's right here on the "new

york post." liar, con artist, thief. these how they are deeming michael cohen with their editorial slant. cohen admitted to most of this, including the theft. he said that previously. he overbilled, a company he was supposed to reimburse, he took some off the top there. we know who he is and we have known for a long time who michael cohen is. he spent time in prison. >> yeah. >> because he lied under oath. let's talk beyond the pr stunt, the front page of the tabloids. do we think the defense undermined cohen's credibility enough where it hurt the case? has the prosecution done enough to buttress it? >> the prosecution did a good job of drawing the sting and bringing out some of those facts well in advance of any cross-examination. the $30,000 that michael cohen took, well, yesterday was the first time he said in such stark terms, i stole it. it was the prosecution that first raised the issue. you kept that additional $30,000. and then when todd blanche said

all the things he said about stealing it, he opened the door wide open to an explanation of, what was that $50,000 reimbursement for again? that gave michael cohen an opportunity to say, oh, i'm glad you asked. you know what it was? i paid a tech company to rig a poll about the most popular businessmen of the last century. what they did was, basically rigged the algorithm so that donald trump's ego would be satiated. he directed me to do this. i did it for his benefit, and basically giving the jury, get another example of here is michael cohen committing another crime or another misdeed for the benefit of, at the direction of, in coordination with donald trump. so i think it was a mixed bag for the defense yesterday. >> so, chuck, i'm curious. as we are watching this, and we don't do day in, day out what you all have done throughout your life, you say juries don't miss anything. brilliant insight. for those of us who haven't

followed pleadings like this our entire life, how does the jury sort through the fact that the fy has lied, that the guy admits on the stand that he stole money from the trump organization? how do they sort through tha and lend any credibility to his testimony? >> right. so michael cohen, liar, cheater, thief, the government has never run away from those facts, and they are facts, joe. and because the defense has also elicited admissions doesn't make it any more or less true. he is what is he. the jury knows that from the opening statements. the important thing here, and we do this all the time as prosecutors when we use cooperators. why do we use them? they are around when the crime was committed and they know stuff. it's that simple. mr. cohen has been corroborated by lots of other witnesses and lots of other documents. is that sufficient to convict? yes, it's sufficient to convict.

will the jury convict? who knows? i can't tell you what would happen in my own cases, let alone this case. but i can tell you that by corroborating mr. cohen with other witnesses and important documents, the jury has everything they need to convict. they know who he is. that has never been hidden from the jury. by the way, it would have been a huge mistake for the government not to adduce these things about mr. cohen. it was their job to tell the jury everything they've done. the defense appropriately also cross-examined mr. cohen on the very same facts, but the jury has what it needs. coming up, funeral ceremonies underway for iran's late president following his death on sunday in a helicopter crash. nbc's keir simmons is in the middle east and he joins the conversation straight ahead on "morning joe."

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agency. joining us from the gulf region is nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons. keir, what's the latest in terms of reaction and in the region and the investigation? >> reporter: well, mika, we're seeing what can be described as incredibly impactful pictures from the city in iran. that is the closest city to the crash site. also where two of the officials who were killed in that helicopter crash are from. huge crowds in the streets and in that city as the coffins of president raisi and the others killed, including the foreign minister, slowly make their way through the streets. people reaching out to touch the coffins, carrying flags, iranian flags and pictures of president raisi. emotional scenes. of course, what you don't see in those pictures are the iranians

who are opposed to the iranian regime, who criticize the regime for executing dissidents, for arresting journalists, for clamping down, crushing protests like, for example, the protests for women two years ago. men and women in tears in the crowds. but then around the world, see iranian embassy celebration and celebrating the death of these officials. as you mentioned, funeral will be carried out a series of days. today, and then tonight the bodies taken to tehran will the funeral will be held tomorrow and then for president raisi moving on to his hometown. so three days of -- and five days of mourning announced by the supreme leader. there are, of course, huge

political implications from what happened with the death of the president in this helicopter crash. we're seeing the pictures and understanding from those images now from tv crews on the ground how it is that he did not survive. rescuers took hours to reach him. we're hearing from the u.s. government, from the state department, saying that -- i think a sign of the panic in the ensuing hours that iran reached out. rare moments of diplomacy amid the animosity between the u.s. and iran, reached out for help. the state department saying it was not able to help because of logistical reasons. at the same time, these reports that president raisi might be a successor to the supreme leader, that is a very opaque process, and we managed to reach an advisor to the iranian government in tehran, and what he told us was that, in fact mr.

raisi was not on the official list. take a listen. >> president raisi has nothing to do with the leader, contrary to what some people in the west were saying. he was not any candidate for the position of leader. the current leader is very healthy, as people see. he is regularly in the public view. but when the time comes, the council in the constitution will choose a new leader. as in the past, the country will move forward. >> reporter: and we know the supreme leader is 85, that he has faced a number of health crises. but that advisor telling me from tehran that iranian foreign policy won't change. i think from what we heard from

the u.s., talking about condolences, but also talking about support for the people of iran who stand up to the regime, i think the evidence is now at this stage, i think we can say that the death of the president of iran is not likely to change fundamentally, not now, not in the short term. coming up, how to become famous. a new book digs into the lost einsteins, forgotten superstars and how the beatles came to be. that conversation is next on "morning joe."

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let's bring in the former supreme allied commander of nato, chief international analyst for nbc news. you know, a saying i heard when i was young that i always keep with me, beware the man with nothing to lose. you could say the same, but for countries. the countries with nothing to lose by striking out, you can

look at russia, as we heard earlier last week, hef a demographic time bomb going off, they have a weakening economy. putin flexes muscles. ukraine. the list of china's problems. the reason we fear them. with iran, you have economic decline. you've got political unrest that has been going on for the past decade, just simmering under the surface. now the death of their president and their foreign minister. what fears do you have that they may strike out during this time of weakness? >> it's a very legitimate proposition. i'll add another to your list, which is north korea. a starving dictatorship that doesn't have a lot of global options open to them. the ayatollahs are on a one-way street. they cannot turn around. they cannot get out of what is building behind them. and what is building behind

them, you used the d word a minute ago, demographics. it's an extremely young society, increasingly urban. they are not looking to live the life that the ayatollahs are offering them. so this kind of event creates, you know, an internal bubbling in addition to the whole game of thrones, who is going to be the next supreme leader. all of that, joe, and this is your point, and it's a correct one, could, could, i think it's unlikely, but could cause them the ayatollahs to lash out in order to kind of create a rally around the flag situation in tehran. i think it's unlikely. it's worth thinking about. i know u.s. intelligence is concerned about it. that's why our good friend rear admiral john kirby is at pains to ensure that we don't escalate the situation and give the ayatollahs an opportunity to

lash out. >> before we let you go, admiral, switching topics, talk about ukraine. obviously, ukraine in a desperate struggle to hold on to kharkiv, asking for the united states and nato allies to shoot down russian missiles. we've, obviously -- what we're seeing unfold still is sort of the delayed impact of donald trump, speaker johnson, house republicans delaying aid to ukraine. it's just not getting there quickly enough because of the months-long delay. the question is, what do we need to do right now in the interim before they get all of the equipment that they need to stop russia's push, not only into kharkiv, but closer to kyiv? >> number one, it's get them the artillery shells. the 155 howitzer rounds. the projectiles that can have real effect on the front line. those are stacked, ready to go,

under command of the nato commander. those are moving. everything human anally we can do to accelerate that, the better. number two, gets the f-16s, the new fighters into the game. that will effect better air defense and help ukraine close the skies. third and finally, it's long-range surface-to-surface missiles, the months of delay, frankly unconscionable. we can still recover. kharkiv can be saved, but it's going to require all hands on deck at this moment for ukraine. coming up, we're live at the new york city courthouse where donald trump has just a little time left to plead his case. we'll preview the closing days of the criminal hush money trial when "morning joe" comes right back. t! psst!) ahhh! with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spray flonase sensimist daily for non-drowsy

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do you wish fans would listen more instead of screaming at concerts? >> we proved we can be heard and screamed at, at once. still, the people want to scream, it's up to them. they they've paid to get in. who are we to say? >> how long did it take you to grow your hair? how often do you wash it? >> it's always been fairly long. it didn't take long to grow. we use any kind of shampoo. >> that was the beatles taking questions from fans before a concert in chicago in 1965. while the fab four had gotten used to screaming crowds by that point, their superstardom was not always a sure thing. joining us now, bestselling author and ar hard law professor, cass sunstein, out with a new book entitled "how to become famous: lost einsteins, forgotten superstars, and how the beatles came to be." and how it came to be that you

would write this book is where we'll start because you say it was the funnest book you have ever written or experience you have had? >> yeah, i learned one day there was a journal, the journal of beatle studies. i thought it would be improbable and really fun to write it for the journal of beatle studies. i tried to write about music, but i knew nothing about music. so it was awful. and this changed being a paper about beatlemania and how it started. >> well, you really missed a major reference in your research, and that would be joe scarbrough. you can literally ask him any question about the beatles. unfortunately, in a freakish sort of way, he knows the answer. joe? >> mika is disturbed by it, cass. i am fascinated by your book. as you point out, the beatles were not -- i mean, i remember reading one time, george martin, i mean, and you write about this, he didn't even want to do them. he did comedy records. when he first heard their songs,

eh, maybe there is one or two we can find in there. another record exec said, the boys won't go. the famous line from the record, producer, bands with kwi tars are on their way out. yet, two years later they were the biggest force in music history. how did they -- how did these kids from liverpool take over the world? >> well, they were really good. that was the first thing. also, they were really lucky. so they had repeated rejections in england. they couldn't get a record deal. it happened that brian epstein, he wouldn't give up. it also happened that on the day that "please, please me," the night it was displayed live, the biggest snowstorm in 100 years. everyone was staying home. that helped evolve them. they also had people in one of

the record studios who liked them and probably pushed them hard after their repeated rejections, and after john and paul said, i think we are not going to make it, we maybe should give up. >> yeah. interesting. of course, mr. epstein, as they called him, would not give up either. just kept fighting for them. let's go to the other part of the book that is really, i think, just as fascinating, more fascinating. you and i are old enough to know that often, i can say in my case, some of the greatest guitarists i ever met, some of the greatest musicians i ever met, some of the greatest graphic artists, some of the greatest artists i ever met through the years just never got out of their home towns. the sparks, as you say, the sparks didn't click right for them. talk about that. >> well, there is bunch of

studies saying that the reason people get successful or famous is that they're amazing. maybe there was something about determination. maybe there is something about persistence. maybe there was something about talent. that's not false entirely. you have to be really good, usually, to be like the beatles and the beatles were amazing. but you need some breaks and you need some serendipity and you need some champions and you need a network. if you look at great literary figures like john keats or jane austen, they weren't thought to be completely amazing in their time. keats thought he failed, he died young, thought his ambitions didn't work out. herman melville wasn't a big success or vincent van gogh or robert johnson, the great blues guitarist. something happens in your lifetime, like brian epstein for the beatles, or you are struck by lightning a little bit.

that happened for taylor swift when she was very young. it often happens in the world and not happens in your training period. it turns you from a nobody into an icon. coming up, a brand-new interview with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. nbc's stephanie ruhle just sat down with him. you have the first look straight ahead on "morning joe." an alternative to pills, voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready

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morning. president biden and israeli's benjamin netanyahu are slamming a move by the the top war crimes court to seek an arrest for the israeli prime minister over alleged crimes against humanity in gaza. nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez has more. >> the president of the united states. >> reporter: president biden emphasizing his support for israel last night and pushing back on allegations it's

committing genocide gaza. >> it's clear, do all it can to ensure civilian protection. what is happening is not genocide. we reject that. >> reporter: the president also condemning the international criminal court after prosecutors announced they are seeking the arrest of prime minister benjamin netanyahu and israeli's defense minister on allegations of war crimes in gaza. >> let me be clear. we reject the icc's application for arrest warrants against israeli leaders. there is no criminal -- between israel and hamas. >> reporter: the prosecutor seeking the arrest of yahya sinwar, the alleged master mind of the october 7th attack and two other hamas leaders, outlining charges, including murder, rape, torture and hostage-taking. hamas condemning the court in response. >> hostages must be released immediately. >> reporter: the charges against israel include deliberately

starving the people of gaza by choking off food supplies. and intentionally targeting civilians. >> these crimes were committed in the context of the ongoing armed conflict, and as part of a widespread and systematic attack against the civilian population of gaza. >> all right. just moments ago, host of the 11th hour, stephanie ruhle, spoke prime minister benjamin netanyahu. >> my response is no different from president biden, who said this is outrageous and many people across the political spectrum in the united states and leaders of democratic countries around the world have called it exactly that. it's a rogue prosecutor who is out to demonize the one and only jewish state. he is doing that by first applying the false symmetry. he equating israel's democratically elected leaders with the trits tyrants of hamas.

that's like saying, well, i'm issuing arrest warrants after 9/11, for george bush, but also for osama bin laden. in world war ii, arrest warrants for fdr and also for hitler. thanks a lot. that's a false symmetry and it's totally absurd. it's a travesty of justice. the other thing he is doing, he is using also, stephanie, just this point, using false accusations. he is saying we're drying out gaza. drying out gaza? we're supplying now, before the war, 7% of gaza's of gaza's wat gaza's water. he's saying we are a deliberate policy of starvation? deliberate policy? we supplied half a million tons of food and drugs. >> sir. we've already heard u.s. aid has said famine is present.

we've heard there's massive famine there. are you saying that they're lying? >> i'm saying cindy mccain is unfortunately misinformed and the facts prove otherwise. we flooded good with humanitarian aid. we fixed the roads, the border crossing to make sure all this food and all these supplies go in. we've enabled air drops. we've enabled maritime routes. we're building a port. the whole thing of the deliberate starvation policy is ridiculous. they said just recently that they were misinformed, 10,000 casualties that were supposed to be women and children, now they say we don't know that.

it takes time for the truth to come out. >> stephanie ruhle joins us more to tell us more about the interview. it's a tough one. there were a lot of questions about netanyahu's decisions during this entire war since day one. what else did he say? >> we went back to that day one and we talked about the power of hamas, how october 7th happened and if prime minister netanyahu underestimated their capabilities. >> the "new york times" reported you encouraged payments from hamas to qatar shortly before the october 7th attack. >> first of all, i did everything in my power to

degrade hamas's military power. we're trying to root them out and not have that many. the money was given to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe, to make sure the water, the sewage and electricity worked. that was the goal. now we want to root them out and get a civilian administration that is not beholding to them. >> did you underestimate what

hamas was capable of? >> we certainly were surprised on that day. there's no question about that. we got back on our feet immediately. we're driving hamas out. we're doing it in the most difficult urban warfare conditions of modern times. they have 35,000 terrorists. it's enormous. they underestimated the fact that we could take them out once we turned things around. we are. it's not easy. we're getting a bum rap on the international scene. the leaders of israel are being called war criminals when we're fighting war criminals, we're fighting these genocidal hamas monsters. and a court that was set up for

the holocaust is accusing israel of such crimes. it's absurd. >> you can't say, yes, we're going to wrap this thing up. this path to peace that he sees is riddled with civilian death and destruction. at the same time there are still hostages who have not been returned home. it's a devastating situation. >> steph, the world is watching what he'll do with rafah. did he give any sense as to what that operation will look like and also this new domestic pushback he's facing at home. >> absolutely. he could face another election this year. he keeps saying after we go into rafah. they haven't defeated hamas in

other places. president biden just said you have certain parts of gaza where hamas is popping back up. they're not just in rafah. >> stephanie ruhle, thank you very much. we'll be watching more of this interview that you had with prime minister benjamin netanyahu tonight on "the 11th hour." up next, the latest out of the donald trump criminal trial in new york, where yesterday the judge cleared the jury out of the courtroom because of the behavior of one of the defense witnesses. and what to expect when court resumes in a matter of moments. we just got a very long list of who's going to be coming to court with donald trump today.

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a lot of people were surprised to hear trump and biden were able to agree to the terms and dates of two debates, june in june and another in september. of course, this being trump, there were always a few bonus rules to throw in. >> i want to debate this guy, but you know -- i'm going to demand a drug test, by the way. i am. no. i really am. i don't want him coming in like the state of the union. he was high as a kite. [ laughter ] >> right. sleepy joe, he can barely put two sentences together, but he's also firing on all cylinders

when he's on cocaine. what are they going to test him for? sas pa ril la? really. the only drug joe biden is on starts with meta and ends with mucil, okay? welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." less than 30 minutes from now the criminal trial of former president trump will resume in a lower manhattan courtroom. we just got the list of who's going to be with him, including donald trump jr., two florida politicians, seven republican members of congress and four other characters. this follows a dramatic day of testimony that included the judge clearing out the courtroom to scold a key defense witness. nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett has the details. >> reporter: this morning, more testimony from the witness the

judge nearly kicked off the stand, robert costello called by the defense to rebut the testimony of michael cohen. he told michael cohen to come clean with prosecutors, but testified that cohen told him, i swear to god, bob, i don't have anything on donald trump. a line that runs directly contrary to cohen's testimony at this trial, that mr. trump directed cohen to pay off a porn star ahead of the 2016 election to protect his campaign and then created a phony paper trail to cover it all up, which the former president denies. >> we did nothing wrong. i want to get back to campaigning. i'm representing hundreds of millions of people. >> reporter: it was costello's demeanor, audibly muttering as the judge sustained numerous objections to his testimony that led to an explosive courtroom

confrontation, the judge telling costello, you don't give me side eye. things only escalating from there, the judge saying, quote, are you staring me down right now? ordering the courtroom cleared. cohen told jurors he never trusted costello and didn't give him the full story at the time. on cross exam, cohen was forced to acknowledge he stole tens of thousands of dollars from the trump organization by taking more reimbursement than he was owed at one point. >> what happens after donald trump wins? >> reporter: this 30-second clip still up this morning using a term associated with germany's nazi government referring to the creation of a unified right under fictional newspaper headlines covering a trump victory in november. >> "washington post" opinion editor alexi mccammon and

jonathan lemire and john heilemann with us. john heilemann, looks like the defense may wrap things up today. we get a day off tomorrow, a day off friday. you're not getting closing arguments until perhaps next week. whatever happens, he gets convicted, a lot of people predicting a hung jury. we have no idea. how is this going to play politically? is there a difference between him being convicted and his walking away with a hung jury and saying i took everything they threw at me and they didn't convict me? >> i wrote about this in my column. the blunt truth is people are

not paying attention to this trial in general, partly because so much about trump's moral decay is already priced in the stock for people. they think, you know, he's a lovable, promiscuous rogue, if they like him, or he's disgusting and appalling and sick. but the affair is 20 years old almost, so people with just kind of not tuned in on this thing. i do think that an acquittal, a hung jury, either one of those, trump who is trying to cast this race as strong versus weak, biden is weak, i am strong. if trump skates on this thing, either way it builds the case where he says they all tried to take me down, they rigged the

deck, yet here i am, i'm walking free one way or the other. a conviction is we are in political terra incognito. we've never seen this before. even if he appeals, which he will, that is the one thing among the small sliver of persuadable voters the notion that, okay, the former president of the united states is now a convicted felon, a criminal, a crook. does that move the needle on the margin just a little bit if the biden campaign drives it properly? they will like having that club in their bag, because this race is going to be won or lost on the margins. >> a conviction in may not so much as a conviction, say, in september or october. jonathan lemire, the hustling in

flyover space among the teeming masses, however people want to put it, you look at the headlines of the papers, especially from the swing states, but mika read the front pages from five different states. i was looking closely. was there anything in any of those newspapers, ohio, arizona, whether it was, was there anything about this trial? no. i saw on the front page of one paper something about netanyahu being charged with crimes by the international court. i saw on another paper something about giuliani, but nothing about donald trump, nothing about the trial and certainly nothing about what probably was the most explosive day in the manhattan case yesterday not making the front pages of newspapers. those editors in those local

areas, they know what the reed -- readers are interested in and not interested in. >> i think the biden campaign and democratic strategists know this is not going to be some sort of game changer. this is not going to change the trajectory of this race. it's not something they're banking on. now, were one of the other trials to materialize between now and november, maybe. there's an outside shot, but unlikely. maybe that one would have more juice. the difference being is there will be a front-page headline in all of those papers in big font if he's convicted. you said the biden campaign would love to have this in their arsenal. yes. but the president of the united states isn't talking about this. he hasn't at all, and he doesn't

want to. will that change? will he say, now that a verdict has been delivered, i can talk about it? or will it have to be farmed out to surrogates. >> joe biden is a believer in the rule of law. he wants to make that case across the board, that donald trump is not someone who supports the rule of law. it's one thing to be a president weighing in when there is a court case being adjudicated. it's the norm in our politics that presidents don't put their thumbs on the scale, don't make public statements when a jury is adjudicaing any case. i think joe biden also respects and sees the political advantage of hammering this issue if donald trump becomes a convicted felon.

i think the impact of it is going to be narrow. but if you're building the contrast of reminding people who donald trump is in our culture, reminding of all the chaos, this will be part of a picture. i don't think biden will shy away from it. if he does, it would be wrong too, because this is a relevant fact for voters to consider. >> criminality and chaos. most voters don't care about the criminality part of it. the chaos is something that makes them slump their shoulders. that is the thing to lean into, the chaos of trump, the chaos

whether he's governing and talking about bleach and lying about covid and later telling bob woodward, yes, of course i knew how bad this was, but i lied to the american people about it because i didn't want to hurt my reelection chances. that is critical. as somebody said, this is baked into the cake. it just is. what's not baked into the cake is the stealing of nuclear secrets, the lying to the fbi about the stealing of nuclear secrets, the attempted coverups with trying to get your i.t. guy to destroy evidence, trying to get your maintenance guy to flood out the evidence. those are the cases that probably would connect, but those are the cases, of course,

that are just plodding along slowly and we'll let people judge why. >> which leads to an equation that is a real potential for this country, criminality plus chaos equals fascism. i say that without any sarcasm or hysteria. donald trump is bringing in a number of republican members of congress today, donald trump jr., florida politicians, joe piscapo. >> incredible group. >> there's something i want to

say, but i'm going to keep it right here on the straight and narrow. a guilty verdict here could also be a political win. it seems like criminality plus chaos equals fascism. >> and it seems like people are willing to ignore that increasingly. this is perhaps the least politically explosive case of the four that he should be having this year. this is likely the only one we will get this year. people aren't really paying attention. unfortunately and what is crazy is that so many people from spos commentators to others have decided democrats are behind this. that is obviously false. donald trump's legal problems are his own. the republicans joining him lurking around the halls of the

courthouse are joining him in this chaos, but they're also normalizing the donald trump and the fascism he could bring. >> donald trump's truth social account posted a video discussing what would happen if he was reelected with a newspaper headline referring to a unified reich. the phrase shows up quickly as part of hypothetical news headlines that announces trump's hypothetical 2024 win. if you look beneath the what's next for america headline, the smaller headline reads "industrial strength significantly increased driven by a unified reich."

they write, this was not a campaign video. it was created by a random account online and reposted by a staffer who clearly did not see the word while the president was in court. the biden/harris campaign said donald trump is not playing games, he is telling exactly what he intends to do if he regains power, rule as a dictator over a unified reich. >> they explained it away. they kept it up. if we go back and search through the ancient mists of history back to 2015, this is the sort of thing that if any politician,

any candidate, any presidential nominee especially had unified reich on something that the campaign reposted, the sound you would hear would be brakes screeching to a halt, controversy, people talking about it for a week, people would be fired. here, it's like a yawn. a unified reich and they repost it and keep it up for quite a while. the fact that a lot of formerly mainstream voters don't care that there is a candidate out there that talks about being a dictator from day one, talks

about executing the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff because he's not loyal, talks about putting members of the press in jail because they're critical of him, talks about using seal team six to assassinate political opponents, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. we have people that are quietly, numbly, sleepwalking towards authoritarianism and they're perfectly fine with it. >> ten years of donald trump in our political life and a lot of things have been normalized. one of the ways in which trump's perpetual lies benefitted him is that people don't take seriously the things that he says. people say, well, he's always talking crap and he's never going to do these things. one of the challenges of this election cycle is to make people

understand donald trump in a second term is more dangerous than donald trump in a first term. he now knows how to operationalize what he had no idea how to execute last time around. >> you wonder what his next term would look like even when it comes to our jobs and the people who have stood up to him, he and his people are vowing to come after us. >> we should absolutely believe that is the case. he's vowed to sue nbc news or comcast or anyone who writes something critical of him or something he simply fines unflattering. he's lived his life by filing lawsuits. he's built a list of enemies. we've seen folks even like bill barr who come out against him and say, actually, i'll support

him. >> alexi mccam monday and john heilemann. coming up, we'll go live to the courthouse in manhattan where donald trump's criminal trial is about to resume in about ten minutes. plus, she already has 16 grammys and now her hit broadway musical has garnered 13 tony nominations. alicia keys straight ahead on "morning joe." head on "morning joe." your windshield f? safelite makes it easy. you can schedule in just a few clicks. and we'll come to you with a replacement you can trust. >> vo: schedule free mobile service now at safelite.com. ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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♪ me and my mother live on the 42nd floor of the 43rd building right in the heart of the neighborhood some people know as

hell's kitchen ♪ >> are you teaching me how to play piano right now? >> in the face of great resistance, yes. ♪♪ >> once you get through these doors, it's like all of new york city is singing to you. ♪ this girl is on fire ♪ >> that is a look at the new smash hit broadway musical "hell's kitchen" with songs composed and arranged by grammy-winning artist alicia keys. the show now has earned 13 tony nominations, including for best musical. the 16-time grammy-award-winning artist joins us now.

good morning. congratulations. >> wow. thank you so much. >> when i interviewed you about a month ago, i told you after i saw the show i had a feeling about this one. >> you did. >> to see it acknowledged with 13 tony nominations, what does that feel like after all the work you've put into it? >> it's been 13 years creating this show. it's been such a work of passion and love. so when the 13 nominations hit, it felt kind of serendipitous in regard to the time and energy and the spirit of the show. i mean, i couldn't even believe it, to be honest. of course, i love this show. i know it's special. but you just never now how it's going to all go. to receive that level of recognition, we feel so grateful. >> come people say, okay, alicia comes in, puts her name on it.

>> uh-uh. not this time. not any time. >> you go to all the previews. you sit up there and find one little light that isn't quite right or the monitor doesn't sound right on one side. your hands were in this. >> all the way in this. we've been at this for 14 years. we talked about the arc of the show, the characters, what is it trying to say. so each step and each piece has been so close. it's a child to me. egypt is 13 and this is 13 and this happened before egypt. it does take that nurturing and care to develop it and to grow it. we've had that time to really make it the best they can be. when people see how it relates

to their life, that's what we really want from it. >> the easy thing is just play the hits, everybody sings along. but you recomposed effectively all of your biggest songs. what i loved about it was they would just sneak into the dialogue, because every song fit into the scene. that's a big list to almost rewrite your catalog. >> there are those songs that have been recomposed to fit into the story. the arc of the story is continuing to evolve with the songs. it doesn't just go insert song here. it's like, how does this song tell the story and propel the story forward. so much of the book and the lyrics and the music goes together to bring you to the emotional highs. there's also new music i wrote for this piece.

it's been so exciting to do that, to put in the newness as well as songs that might be familiar, but do them in a new way that relate to the moment you're in when you're watching. >> let's watch one of the original songs written for the show. it is sung by ali, the main character. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪

♪♪ >> i mean, mika, we're having a dance party in the studio. >> it's so incredible. my gosh, it's electric, alicia. >> thank you. >> it was so great to see you last month with rev al. you said something to the audience there that really resonates with my women's platform know your value. you said the secret sauce is making sure powerful women are uplifted and that they're all at the table. i'm curious, what advice would today's 43-year-old alicia keys

give to 17-year-old alicia or the teen who is the lead in "hell's kitchen"? >> the advice i would give to a young person looking for their way and trying to find who they are, the best advice i could give is you know who you are, you really are clear who you are. i think the world makes us think we don't know who we are, that we're not good enough to stand on our own ideas and concepts. looking back even in my teen years, i doubted everything, i thought other people knew more than i did, but they don't. you know you, so continue on your vision, follow your heart, your spirit. of course, you're going to learn, but you know you. that's the most important thing. >> did you always have drive and confidence with all your career pivots from music, acting, writing, books, taking on

multiple business vetures and broadway? did you always see that runway? >> you know, i feel i did have the sense that things were possible. i didn't always feel super confident in how i was going to get there or that i had everything that i took, but i did have the feeling that things were possible. i think that comes back to my mother taking me to broadway plays when i was a kid, seeing worlds imagined, being exposed to culture in new york city, these are things that allow people to know there's a variety of ways to express yourself. that's what i love about "hell's kitchen." it shows you there's no limit to what you can become. you have no limits. >> you must be so proud of this

cast. they're so in sync. it's electric. they are brilliant. >> thank you. >> as a producer, how much of a role did you play in every detail, including choosing the cast and of course composing the music? >> this cast is stunning. there is no doubt about it. they are phenomenal. not only are they incredible actors and dancers, but they with blow the roof off of your brain. you can't even believe how you feel when you're hearing them sing. that's so spectacular. i was definitely like let's really push for them to be everything they can possibly be. now, when you see them on stage, they're incredible. they're some of the greatest performers ever. >> the dancing in the show is unreal. >> camille brown, the

choreographer is thrilling. the music and story and choreography take it to the next level in storytelling. you get a full sensory experience of storytelling in "hell's kitchen". >> 13 years with 13 tony nominations, pretty good. congratulations. >> thank you. >> go see it. it's called "hell's kitchen" playing now at the schubert theater in new york. great to see you. >> thank you guys. donald trump's hush-money trial resumed a few moments ago. robert costello has taken the stand again. we'll have a live report from the courthouse, next on "morning joe."

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38 past the hour. let's go right to the courthouse in lower manhattan. vaughn hillyard is there. give us the very latest on former president trump's criminal trial. >> reporter: good morning, mika. donald trump just walked into the lower manhattan courthouse. the question coming in today, after robert costello, that cohen advisor from 2018, close associate of rudy giuliani, who is the main defense witness here at this point, he just entered and took the stand again and is answering further questions from the prosecution. the big question today is whether donald trump would take the stand in his own defense. i just want to read you the quote he told the camera before walking into the courtroom. quote, we'll be resting pretty quickly, resting meaning resting the case. that indication from donald

trump would suggest that he will not take the stand in his own defense. instead, this would lead the defense to rest its case this morning. then we could expect, come this afternoon, following the lunch break, judge merchan would initiate the charging conference. that is where the two parties, without the jury in the room, will begin to deliberate and put forward to judge mar merchan what they believe the specific statutes should be presented to the jury next week when closing arguments are delivered. the jurors are then given instructions in which they will be determining whether donald trump is guilty or not of the specific wording these two parties are presenting in tandem to the judge. ultimately judge merchan will determine what that language looks like. we're looking at a big day ahead

here with donald trump likely not testifying himself, but the charging conference this afternoon, which we expect to get quite contentious between the two sides. >> christy greenberg and danny cevallos is with us, dave aronberg as well. greg, i'll start with you. thoughts on how the prosecution and defense have performed so far? how damaging was the drama last night with the trump witness and the judge having to clear the courtroom? overall, where do you think both sides stand, knowing you cannot predict where a jury will go? >> that's right. so i think yesterday's episode

with mr. costello is clearly not good for the defense. >> but how not good? >> it depends on how the jury viewed it. a lot of what happened did not happen in the presence of the jury, so we have to discount the impact in terms of the jury's impression. what the jury did see, to the extent that it caused the jury to detect that the judge was not happy and to the extent that the jury really likes the judge, which is typically the case, the jury would be left with a negative impression most likely. the prosecution seemed to have put on its case the way it wants to. the judge has bent over backwards to protect the rights of the defendant throughout the trial. i like to think defense counsel has done the best he has been able to with the cards he's been

dealt. i think that overall enough evidence has been presented for a conviction. of course, we don't know how the jury has perceived it. >> you were marveling at the display from mr. costello. take us inside that. what was so striking to you? >> he was just really obnoxious and rude. he was rude actually to the prosecutor on cross examination. he wasn't really answering her questions. he was kind of biting in his responses. then he was really rude to the judge, not only doing a lot of side eye, but at one point when an objection which was sustained he said "strike it," which is obviously something you would expect the judge to do and kind of muttering under his breath. that was over the top. that was the part the jury did see. this is the kind of judge the

jury would like. he's calm and even in his speech. he's very respectful of their time. for this kind of really bombastic and obnoxious witness to come on, that's the last impression that the defense will be leaving. he is their witness and they have to own that. the jury is not necessarily thinking about all the issues with michael cohen. instead they're thinking about this guy. as far as i can tell, christmas came early for alvin bragg. this was, i think, a real gift to the prosecution. >> juries often bond with judges and they don't want to see a judge treated like that. do you think costello said anything yesterday or could say anything today that would harm the prosecution's case? >> yes. he did testify that michael cohen apparently told him that he didn't have anything on donald trump, that perhaps donald trump didn't know anything about the payments to stormy daniels. but you take that benefit and

you balance it against the negative, which was costello's testimony as a whole. the jury may cob -- conclude that overall costello was not very appealing to the jury and obviously not the judge. costello was a problematic witness. was he worth the risk of calling him? i imagine maybe we'll hear from defense counsel when they write their tell-all book that the client wanted costello to testify and costello may have said, i can do it, i'm going to get up there and clean house. it's the end of the trial. you're exhausted. and if the client really wants something, sometimes you think, well, if that's what he wants, let him make his bed, and he

shall lay in it. >> it seems the prosecution could easily say costello was trying to get cohen to trust him, said hey, i'll be your lawyer, your conduit to donald trump. if you don't trust somebody, you're not going to put your cards on the table. i want to dig deeper. this is so fascinating. you all are talking about the judge and how the jury, maybe they're connecting to this judge, like the judge. we were talking yesterday about whether the families in the courtroom and all these cyborgs in the courtroom from washington and how distracting that is, a judge that conducts himself well, talk about how the jury

can connect with that judge. it's not just about donald trump versus the prosecution. if they like the judge and see him as a straight shooter and see him getting disgusted with the defense, have you seen that have an impact on juries? >> i'm so glad you asked that question. sometimes in cases -- not this one. sometimes there's a judge who's a little more antagonistic or emotive. in those cases sometimes defense counsel will make a decision to make get in a little trouble with the judge to sort of project the idea that, look, the judge is yelling at defense counsel, the judge is kind of aligned with the prosecution and the defense counsel is the heroic underdog fighting against the system and the judge is part of the system. sometimes that's a subtle narrative that you try to sell. that's not this case, and it

doesn't work with a judge like merchan, because he's been so even tempered throughout the trial. when you have a judge not emotive or prone to outbursts, then the jury is more likely to trust him and it's not going to work if you try to paint it that the judge is against them. because he's been so fair throughout the trial and even allowing costello to testify created what is generally prohibited which is a mini trial within a trial on the issue of a witness's truthfulness. so the judge instead allowed it to go forward. i imagine last night he was thinking, boy, that was so much

hassle, i probably should have just precluded him. >> everybody stand by. we're going to take a break, but our coverage of this continues with greg brower and dave aronberg. we'll be right back with more. we'll be right back with more. . the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred.

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landed some body blows. he made a huge mistake in calling robert costello to the stand because you have to understand, judge merchan is despised on the right as corrupt and compromised and that's where costello's contemptuous behavior came from because he's either a true believer or he wants to become a maga hero and so the side eye, and the staredown, yeah, that will get you booked on hannity, but it will also get you booked into jail in judge merchan's courtroom. and though merchan hammered costello out of the view of the jury, the jury had to know what was going on, they heard costello's snide comments and saw how it irritated the judge. this is the defense's only substantive witness and he's bombing. they wanted robert costello, instead they got abbott and costello. they wanted costello to expose cohen's lies, but he's actually making cohen look good. and so the final question is, why did they call him? i think it is because, as has been reported, donald trump wanted him, he overrode his

lawyers because trump, you know, he watches all these right wing shows and they were calling for costello to testify. now, mika, you know why joe tacopina quit the legal team, he didn't want the client to dictate his trial strategy and now you see why. >> what was the point, greg, of calling this witness? was there an actual point to it or literally is -- the only thought is that it was for donald trump and i'll add another question, when you started this segment, you said the prosecution put enough evidence down for a conviction. don't know what the jury is going to do. but how strong is the case overall? >> well, let me address first question first. when i said earlier the defense counsel has probably done the best he could with the cards he's been dealt, one very bad card he's been dealt is his client and his client's propensity to micromanage the trial tactics. i think the previous speaker is

right. the idea to call costello was probably the client's and not consequence counsel and not the best decision as it turns out. with respect to the case it depends on the jury. the jury has to believe michael cohen. they have to understand as juries are pretty good at, frankly in criminal cases, understand that cohen brings a lot of baggage, he's an admitted felon, liar, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. they have to believe that the key evidence he's providing is truthful and accurate, has to make sense to them, and i think if the jury can make sense of cohen's story, and then apply to the judge's instructions on the law, there is enough for a conviction, but we'll see. >> yeah, jonathan lemire. >> christie, walk us through what we should expect today, which might be the last full day of -- day of witnesses. >> so, it looks like they will be ending with robert costello, which, again, i agree with everyone, is a huge mistake, that is not where you want to end if you're the defense.

there is a possibility they will call an expert on federal campaign finance law, but the judge has made rulings that so restrict what that witness could testify to that i'm not sure that the defense will call that witness, not sure it would really be worth it. and then what we'll see this afternoon is at 2:15, a charge conference and both sides are, did seems from argue. pretty far apart about what instructions should be given to the jury on the law, and so expect that to last a few hours this afternoon, while they really hammer some of these definitions, in particular of federal campaign finance law. >> all right, so, i want to go back to vaughn hillyard outside the courthouse, as we watch the notes come in, as robert costello's testimony continues, vaughn, are you seeing any explanation as to what the value of this witness is? >> reporter: no. what you have been saying is playing out in real time right

now. robert costello was supposed to be a sympathetic figure. that's why the defense team called him as a witness because they were going to tell the jury that, look, he was working as a legal adviser to michael cohen. but when you're looking at the timeline between april of 2018, right after michael cohen's home and hotel were raided by fbi agents and his phone seized, and ultimately july of 2018, when he pleaded guilty to federal charges, that was the time frame that robert costello was talking with michael cohen. and they are adding email after email into the record and reading them to robert costello, in front of this jury, and there is one particular email that -- where, you know, robert costello is saying, yes, i was working on behalf of michael cohen, i had his interests in mind, but they read an email into the record in which robert costello says, what should i say to this a-hole, he's playing with the most powerful man on the planet,

showing he was doing the bidding of donald trump and trying to keep cohen from flipping. it is email after email in front of this jury. >> okay, thank you, all, very much for your analysis this morning. and that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera and jose diaz-balart pick up the coverage in 90 seconds. se diaz-balart pick up the coverage in 90 seconds. try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints. if you have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's disease... put it in check with rinvoq... a once—daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief... and reduced fatigue with rinvoq. check. when flares kept trying to slow me down... i got lasting steroid—free remission... with rinvoq. check. and when my doctor saw damage,... rinvoq helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. check. for both uc and crohn's: rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid—free remission... and visibly reduced damage.

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