hi, everyone. welcome to tuesday.

it's now 4:00 in new york. this morning a key chapter until the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president came to a close. the testimony phase of the people of the great state of new york vermont vs. donald trump is over after the defense rested its case and trump in the end did not testify. although just a few weeks ago, he said this, quote, i'm testifying. i tell the truth. whatever that means. happening right now in court, prosecutors and trump's defense attorneys are discussing the instructions that the judge will give to the jury. it's incredibly important. where donald trump faces 34 felony charges for falsifying business records in order to conceal another crime. we'll keep you posted on all of the updates out of those proceedings. we turn to the dramatic events this morning in court.

team trump resting its case, one was a paralegal and the other was the attorney robert cost tell la lo. whatever credibility he had left after his outburst in court, the ones that resulted in the judge clearing the courtroom to admonish him, whatever remained was ripped to sleds in a few moments during cross-examination this morning by prosecutors. with jurors reportedly paying close attention, the da's office showed e-mails written by costello himself that clearly show that he worked to manipulate michael cohen, even as he claimed to be his lawyer. he wrote in an e-mail to his partner that they needed to get, quote, michael cohen on the right page without giving him the appearance that we are following instructions from giuliani or the president. in my opinion, this is the clear and correct strategy.

then the prosecutor threw his own words tobacco in his face from inside the courthouse. as you said yesterday, the e-mail speaks for itself, krkt? costello's reply, quote, sometimes. prosecutors also entered into evidence. from this attorney to michael cohen that read, quote, you're making a a very big mistake. if you believe the stories these journalists are writing about you, they want you to cave. they want you to fail. they do not want you to persevere and succeed. if you really believe you're not being supported properly by your former boss, then you should make your opinion known. then there's more. the da's office showed an e-mail to his own partner that read, quote, tune into cnn and see how they are playing this up. he has to know this. he just continues to slow play

us and the president. he was playing with the most powerful man on the planet. no wonder he didn't hire him. i was surprised that michael cohen is the one that puts distance between himself ask this lawyer. you'll recall he testified last week to this. quote,s there was something really sketchy and wrong about him. now all of this, this whole testimony phase of the trump election interference hush money trial coming to an end with a gamble gone wrong by team trump is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends with us at the table. former top prosecutor at the department of justice msnbc analyst andrew weissman. susan craig is back with us. special correspondent for the hollywood reporter lockland cartwright join us.

and special guest correspondent vaughn hillyard has made his way from the courthouse to be with us onset. i want to show you guys, because you have constantly remined minded me there's some able attorneys sitting at trump's table. the costello thing seems like a debacle to me. i speak as someone that's been picked to sit on a jury. but this is what fox news was saying about the kill shot that this costello character could deliver. >> quite frankly, costello is a kill shot witness. >> i think trump should put him on as a witness. >> michael cohen didn't already totally destroy the prosecution, there's one potential witness. but there is one who could deal the final blow, perhaps, former cohen legal adviser unofficially bob costello. >> did they want him to implode?

what did they want? >> let's start with you don't know how a jury is going to think of this. i'm going to give my opinion as somebody who has litigated. i don't know how it's playing to the jury. there are things that didn't make any sense. i have talked about understanding why you give a hard cross to stormy daniels, whose evidence it doesn't matter whether you believe or the not, but don't do a hard cross on david pecker and hope hicks. robert costello, if you're the prosecution, you had to be going, thank you. i think he did provide a kill shot, but not in the way that fox news intended. this was devastating evidence. it was an exhibit to exactly what michael cohen had said was going on.

it is so mob. it is exactly what happens in mob cases where you have lawyers sent in to find out are you cooperating, we really represent the boss, that's who we really are doing. that's what the jury could conclude. the witness said that's not true. the problem for him is you're reading from it's in black and white. and ichael cohen said, i didn't trust him. i thought essentially everything was going to get passed up to the president. >> so again, i try to say this at least once every hour. we have no idea how the jury has received any of this, but if this is an exercise to relatively, to michael cohen, donald trump, the guy on trial or me, cost tell points it back to donald trump. >> you thought the hard part is ending the case with michael

cohen. that was a pretty bold move. usually you sandwich him with other stuff and end with a more innocuous website. here are some records. that issue was solved by the defense putting on their first witness who was a paralegal who said, you know what, what todd blanche told you and stretched the truth about the 75 calls, that was wrong. i'm not going to be a fall guy for that. that was a little appetizer to the real issue, which costello got on and it was such a huge mistake. plus he had been in the grand jury a year before. the prosecution knew what he was going to say. they had a year to prepare for this. and if you want to see really good lawyering, susan's cross-examination was masterful. >> we're going to read it. this is what happened. mr. cohen, this is from cohen's

testimony. did you ever tell the truth to mr. costello about donald trump's involvement in ami's purchase of karen mcdougal's story to prevent that from coming out before the direction to you paying stormy daniels. was he in possession of the truth. why did you not tell him the truth about trump's involvement in those matters. cohen, this is on direct. i didn't trust him meaning costello. i was still remaining loyal to trump. question, did you believe if he told him the truth he would tell them that to someone? cohen, yes. i believed based upon all our conversations he would immediately run back to giuliani and our communication would be divulged to president trump. so this is yesterday when they cleared the courthouse. we didn't know when we were all here together yesterday what had happened.

it wasn't sealed so it was res leased in the transcript. the judge, okay. so when there's a witness opt the stand, if you don't like my ruling, you don't say, jeez, and you don't say strike it, because i'm the only one that can strike testimony in the courtroom. do you understand that? costello, i understand. okay. then if you don't like my ruling, you don't give me side eye and roll your eyes. do you understand that? >> i understand that. i understand what you're saying. the judge, okay, thank you. let's get the jury back. are you staring me down right now? costello, no, i'm just wondering how. the judge, clear the courtroom. let the record reflect that it's now five after four, i'm putting you on notice that your conduct is contemptuous. if you try to stare me down one more time, i will remove you from the stand. i will strike his entire testimony, do you understand that? yes, i understand. the judge, listen to the question and answer the

question. can i say something please? the judge, no, no, this is not a conversation. costello, okay. so that was yesterday. and then today they bring the prosecution back to its strongest witness documents. >> it was really going through those e-mails was incredibly powerful. at a certain point if it looks like a rat and walks like a rat, it is a rat. that's exactly how he came across in the courtroom once those e-mails were read out. they were incredibly powerful. his cross was really masterful. she kept it right locked on him tight. i thought it was efficient when the jury probably appreciated that. i thought all of that was smart. i just am still marvelled by the fact that from their own discussions and when they are processing cohen, they really landed some shots. so if we just think about that, on the last day of his

testimony, he admitted from stealing from the trump organization so he's admitted to stealing, he's mitted to lying. instead of letting that linger with the jury, they let this happen. . now the jury is fwoen for a week and the last testimony in their mind is costello. >> it's really something. >> it's costello playing a role that anyone that has seen a mob movie knows who this character in the mob movie is. this is the guy saying, if you're mad at the boss, say something now or forever hold your peace. this is the last guy that talks to you before you end up whacked. >> and robert costello was there and i was in court yesterday and today. he was there to undermine michael cohen's credibility. the only person whose credibility he undermined was his own. the fact that that is the main defense witness and the only real defense witness, and the witness that the jury will leave now for a week having seen is just extraordinary.

it's a self-inflicted wound. i'm amazed that they thought this was going to be a play by putting him on the stand. and it was all the mob language. we saw it in black and white where he used the word a-hole and said he's playing with the most powerful man on the planet. that other response where our issue is to get him on the same page without giving him the appearance that we are following instructions from rudy giuliani or the president. s it was extraordinary. >> the appearance. >> it felt like it was a client-directed witness. i can't see the lawyers who are some capable lawyers were like, let's get bob costello on the stand this week. it felt like they wanted to take one more run at michael cohen. not they, donald trump wanted to take one more run. >> and the problem is this is about a cover-up. what costello's e-mails do is

implicate donald trump in the cover-up. >> last week, i was in the courtroom for the part where michael cohen was directly talking about his relationship with robert costello. i took this in my notes at the time. i was marked by how often he was looking directly at the jurors in the jury box as he was describing his relationship. a the lot of his other testimony he was going back and forth with todd blanche, but that particular moment, he kept looking at them as he tribed robert costello and the back channel e-mails to rudy giuliani and his client donald trump is covert. so it was a week ago he was telling the jurors about this weird relationship that he felt. that guy comes on to the stand and that e-mail, in which he's telling his law partner that this guy is an a-hole and doesn't understand who he is messing with. these are two version of events. >> and also to the degree that our analysis is remotely

tracking with how the jury experienced 20 days of testimony. it totally reverses the momentum to the degree that blanche in impugning trump, cohen's memory of one call on the 24th, to the degree that was the last thing in their minds, they have a week before they are back in this courthouse listening to anyone say anything about anybody. now the lasting memory is of this one witness that trump had coming up, doing something that resulted in them being seated and kicked out two times they had to leave because of this witness. hay may not know why, but they had to leave because of something he did to the judge. that's what they learned about this witness yesterday. and today they were reminded of his e-mails where he puts the whole thing back on trump. >> because you are making the suggestion by bringing on a

defense witness, and i respect not coming from a legal background that sometimes defense teams don't bring witnesses. they say the prosecution didn't make their case. that's not what happened here. the defense did. they told this jury that we have one man and this man is really important. he's going to crush this case. that one man is not the defendant, donald trump, who didn't take the stand. he could have said, all of this is hogwash. none of this is true. michael cohen didn't tell me anything. instead, they brought one man who is essentially reiterating weird conversations. so this is just one of those moments here where robert costello didn't quash any questions about a trump tower meeting, about the checks, he quashed none of those questions. he knew nothing about the events of 2016. that's the best they had is somebody that could talk about the events of the middle of 2018. >> and a close read of those e-mails that were read for a second time to the jury on the cross is that they are about the two things this case hinges

around. the press coverage, trump is watching the press coverage of cohen. they are obsessed with the media they pretend to loathe, and about staying loyal to the boss about about the time. >> highly impressive. so he was signaling to the main defense witness that you're doing well. >> it's maybe it did land with the jury. we did not know. the idea that having those e-mails read in front of of the jury before the jury leaves for seven days, let me read some of it. he started by setting the scene about cohen not hiring costello pap she walked the jury through a massive paper trail. the sooerz of nail mails that paint a picture to back off and costello continuing to speak

sometimes in code, sometimes not about rudy and trump back channels. it kicked off with the e-mail from michael cohen to costello and letting him know in no uncenter terms that he hired someone else. gentlemen, cease contacting me and you do not and have never represented me in this or any matter. trying to establish that he dangled how close he was to rudy and how useful that could be to michael. asked him about this e-mail from costello to michael. quote, i'm sure you saw the news that rudy is joining the trump legal team. i told you my relationship with rudy could be very useful to you. this is when rudy joins him to rep him and mueller. >> exactly. just to the point you were discussing. it is very often better for the defense to do nothing than to put on a witness who implodes. the defense doesn't have to do

anything, and resting on that instruction, jurors take that seriously. and saying the defense actually has a defense they want us to consider. it supports the prosecution. it's a really bad move. this strikes me as clearly it is like donald trump reducts of the e. jean carroll case. you know what, there's a reason we lost that first trial. i can do brt. i can do better $85 million instead of $5 million. and it's the idea that he couldn't be talked out of. there's no way one of the defense lawyers and i have a great idea. we're going to end with robert costello. i think she knows better.

this is one also just remember robert costello volunteered to go in the grand jury a year ago. so it's not like the prosecution didn't know exactly what he was going to say and loaded and they shot aer bear. >> again, this is the e-mail. this is the lasting part of the story the jury has is at least for seven days. hofen engineer asking about this e-mail he sent to his partner. all the more reason for cohen to hire me because of my connection to giuliani, which i mentioned in the meeting. he asked costello about an e-mail is sent to michael. i just spoke to rudy giuliani. i told him i was on your team. rudy was thrilled and said this could not be a better situation for the president or you. he sdd me if it was okay to call the president and i said fine.

the last thing they hear is literally closing the circuit on donald trump as the chief mice tro of the cover-up. >> he took a massive bucket. that's what's happening here. there was a huge bonfire in that courtroom. it's due to the defense calling bob costello. >> what do they do now? >> pray? i don't know. >> that's their best shot. i don't know. >> it's going to come down to the closings. it's hearing some of those instructions or the debate about the instructions on the way here. this is not in trump's favor. where we stand at this point, that jury in their mind, that's the last witness they have heard is bob costello is basically supporting everything we have heard and know about donald trump. nothing about the documents, nothing to put on an actual defense. and that's what they are going to leave and think about for for

the next week. >> i have to ask all of you. this makes michael cohen look like the victim of both extortion, pressure and a threat. orchestrated through costello. so again, talk about trump rehabilitating his own nemesis. we're going to continue to follow what we are tracking for us. what's happening right now. they are inside the courtroom right now. the prosecution and donald trump's lawyers, trying to work out what instructions the jury will be given about how to make their judgment, how to make their decision on trump's guilt or innocence, whatever they should decide. we'll tell you what we're learning and what's happening now while we're on the air. plus still to come from the people who brought you good people on both sides, the trump presidential campaign openly calling for a unified reich echoing nazi germany. telling people loud and clear what a vote for trump will usher in. we'll talk about this dangerous latest rhetoric.

all those stoies and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. ter a q. don't go anywhere today.

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and ego authorized dealers. we're all back. the control room asked if anyone is tracking what's happening inside the courtroom. i said everybody but me. welcome. tell us what's going on inside. >> when i was leaving, the decisions were going against trump. >> and it's just my colleagues reporting the same at "the new york times." most everybody has gone against the defense this afternoon. >> they are ruling on the jury instructions and mostly ruling in favor of the prosecution. >> what does that mean? >> there's so many different

rulings. some small, some big, the issue of does it have to intend to do something solely to interfere with the campaign or if you partially do it for the campaign and partially do it for melania, is that sufficient. the answer is the the latter. >> but you told us before this started. >> that's the law. i would have been surprised. so he's going through lots of issues like that. if you like it, go to law school. it's pretty nerdy stuff. what do we have to find facts of. he's going to issue his decision

with all of the language on thursday. and that allows both sides then to know what will the jury be told by the judge and they can craft their arguments know away ing what the law is going to be given to the jury. >> you have an important note about what they will be told to determine as it pertains to the underlining crime of election interference. >> there was the conversation about stepping it up to the felony, they had to prove there's an underlying crime. it was questioned because it was never stated in opening statements. though the prosecution allude ed to it throughout the trial they were going to be honing in on the efforts to influence the outcome of the election, which would be a violation of new york election law 17152. and part of that language there is the explicit part about influencing the election through, as i'm going back to my own notes, through unlawful means. the question was what is unlawful means? the defense team for donald trump wanted to make sure it was articulated that you're alleing

another crime to a certain extent. what the judge said here just in the last few minutes, it's up to the jurors to determine what unlawful means. they are not have to be a definition. you don't have to prove he violated tax laws in new york or violated the federal election campaign act. instead it's up to the jurors to sort of take that unlawful terms or ambiguous route. that was one potential hiccup for the prosecution in krins convincing the jurors that unlawful meant almost something else. almost a third tooer of tier of proving their case. >> the last piece of testimony being the most crimy that trump acted in these e-mails as described by rudy's lawyer. i want to read more from the last thing, the last testimony that the jury will have heard in this case from trump's only witness. there was a paralegal, but the only narrative witness, this is from the cross. he asked costello about another

e-mail costello sent to michael cohen. i spoke with rudy giuliani very positive. you are loved. if you want me to call, i will give you the details. i told him erg you told me. rudy said this communication channel must be maintained. sleep well tonight. you have friends in high places. some very positive comments about you from the white house. costello then confirmed in his cross, friends in high places refer to president trump. quote, yes. you have to decide if trump committed crimes, you have to decide if trump was behind the cover-up. you have to decide if the ten checks that michael cohen went through, one check had a second check, if that cover-up was trump himself and the last thing you heard was a guy on trump's side saying, sleep well tonight. >> let's just step back from the trial.

i'm thinking of everything you have been saying. nothing is new this trump world. this is what he's been doing throughout the mueller investigation. i tell the story about with gaetz being pushed and pull pulled in the sense of do not cooperate. we could get pardoned. we have your back. all of that was being done. you see it now with mcpakistan. this is like a classic example with trump you see over and over, which is you want to keep these people closer. and you want to make sure they do not flip. this is the head of law enforcement in our country. saying, you know what, do not cooperate with law enforcement. if you are innocent, you think that the conversation would be go and tell them everything you know. this is a the great thing. let them know exactly what you have in your head. this is such devastating evidence, ands it is just exactly the way you behave if you have something to hide.

>> i'm going to read a little more. our issues to get michael cohen on the right page without giving the appearance that we are following the instructions from rudy giuliani or the president. >> that's so devastated. >> the last thing the jury heard, and i hope they have a fantastic memorial day, but the last thing they heard was from trump's only witness, quote, our issue is to get michael cohen on the right page without giving the appearance that we are following the instructions from rudy giuliani or the president. which means we're following instructions from rudy and the president. >> i don't even know what to say anymore. that's so devastating. i just think the jury also, i was thinking about them this morning. they had to live through the costello thing. they were asked to leave twice. they came in for 45 minutes this morning after all of that. the impression that they are left with at the end, they are not only sitting with costello,

they had their day chewed up for 45 minutes. something andrew said. there's one thing not to put on a defense and you can explain that. to pull up a witness, it's powerful that they had two. this is really the only one you had. i watch a lot of law and order. i know this wasn't good. they are saying this is our defense. i think the jury could read it that way. i think a lot of people are normal people that are on juies would read it that way. i think it was a real miscalllation. >> what happened today should be taught in law school. it really should be played and could be replayed and taught in law school. it was incredible to sit there and watch it. >> there's more. >> please remember if you want

or need to commuicate something, please let know and i will see that it the gets done, end quote. i'm your guy. i'm your channel. >> hang them by their own words. absolutely. it was clinical. it was precision. it was almost like i was like watching a surgeon. they were trying to undermine his credibility and take every swing. and he kept cool, calm and collected. but he bolted it for the defense. >> he doesn't scream. he doesn't do the things that people are saying he's going to do. he's not triggered. costello does. it's such an inversion of where all of the expectations were.

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[introspective music] recipes. recipes written by hand and lost to time. are now being analyzed and restored using the power of dell ai. ♪ ( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. we're back. we're wondering who is going to option the cross that hofen engineer did. it's so dramatic. i have to read the end of it. there was a kill shot. it was fired by susan. here's how it ends. quote, you lost control of michael cohen for the president.

costello, no. mr. cohen hired guy, you lost control of michael cohen for the president. there's sol cross talk. she says you have animosity against michael cohen. no. last week didn't you go to the house of representatives to testify about michael cohen? answer, i was asked to testify. and you went through to publicly vilify michael cohen while he was on then stand. she asks if costello knew his comments about michael cohen would be publicized in the press. costello says, no, he didn't know that. it was reasonable to expect they would be. we all saw the way he's covered on fox. question, and it was an effort by you to intimidate michael cohen while he was testifying here? costello, intimidate michael cohen? question, yes, that's my question. intimidate michael cohen, no. nothing further, your honor. >> essentially it laid out after

the defense tried to make michael cohen try to sound like the ex-employee who didn't get the job he wanted. their star witness for the defense exactly just painted as that guy. but literally an e-mailed evidence form that robert costello acknowledged that michael cohen picked somebody that was not him. >> it goes further. she says weren't you last week while we were all here trying to intimidate him, that seems to have a cord back to the dramatic clearing of the courthouse yesterday. >> and i also go back to the question for andrew weisman. i think there's a question around the legality of intent to commit another crime. in what these exchanges think on a broader part pull out is that donald trump, through rudy giuliani, through costello, were part of a conspiracy that is being alleged here that intended to commit the crime of influencing the 2016 election. that's where i was going through every day of testimony and this

morning this cross-examination of robert costello was another example of how does that impact the intent part of this. donald trump was maybe not calling up robert costello, but if he was using rudy giuliani, is that all part of the broader scheme that was alleged about donald trump's intent beginning in 2015 ul the way through 2018. >> on tuesday when we hear summations and the lead lawyer on the state side, wait for the words costello. he's going to be using this to show whatever doubts you had about michael cohen, you know exactly why it's credible. because that's just the last thing that man, and they will point at him, wanted. they did not want him on that witness stand. they did not want you to hear him. and so they have to do everything they can to tear him

down. but you know exactly what was going on. they tried everything they could to use people like costello to keep him away from you. that's going to be used to shore up the entire case. it was a real misstep. >> and it seems to be under guttered in this final question with new information. the jury knows that last week costello testified before congress in a publicized tirade against cohen. he was at least asked, was it an effort to intimidate michael cohen while he was testifying. >> one more time. you just heard they spent an hour listening to her cross. that was the intimidation that was the theme throughout it. and they were plotting behind his back. they weren't being geuine and that continued until the time this was going on now. >> the whole thing is sort of why i have a hard time getting

through any nols anymore. the twists and turns, we came on at 4:00 and i don't remember the last time we had the conversation. we were talking about this before we came on. it's been so dramatic. what do you gerding for heading into tuesday? >> just as i was leaving course, the judges was discussing in terms of the jury instructions the motivations for the mcdougal payments. so we come back around to that 2015 meeting with cohen. we now know why they didn't want cohen and why he was so important in keeping him on the hook. the jury has seen that today. we're coming back around to that pivotal meeting with pecker, with trump, with michael cohen. where they come up with this scheme. that scheme is at the foundation of this. and we now know why those payments were critical. and the other key thing, with those payments would have been made if trump wasn't a candidate. would those payments have been made if donald trump wasn't running for president? >> or if he lost?

>> and would those catch and kills would have been paid if donald trump wasn't running for office. we have had our answer in the last several weeks of incredibly gripping testimony. >> it's incredible. you all have been so incredible. thank you so much for joining us almost every day at 4:00 to talk with me and our viewers through all of this. we look forward to turning to you next week. the pest of the best. we're going to switch gears. it's happened again. the trump campaign openly pushing for this country to resemble nazi germany. he has told us who he is, what he stands for, time and time again. there's nothing normal about this election or him or his campaign. we'll tell you all about it, next. we'll tell you all about i, next

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taking ozempic® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may increase low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. living with type 2 diabetes? ask about the power of 3 with ozempic®. maybe we'd be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt if this thing didn't happen over and over is and over again. the fact of the matter is the now completed video is bad enough that he deleted it, donald trump shared on social media late yesterday allude ing to a unified reich among possible futures should he win reelection is just the very latest instance of what has become a now year's long pattern. here's what we're talking about. a flurry of head up headlines from a potential second trerm trump presidency. they read economy booms, 15 million illegal aliens deported.

driven by the creation of a unified reich. in addition to taking this video down, 19 hours after the trump campaign said this in a statement. quote, this was not a campaign video, it was created by a random account online and reposted by a staffer who clearly did not see the word, while the president was in court. president biden began his 2020 candidacy with the words charlottesville, virginia. for what happened at the neo-nazi rally there. now in 2024, a campaign spokesman is responding this way. quote, donald trump posting a unified reich video is part of a pattern of his praise for dictators and of echoing anti-semitic tropes he's a threat to our democracy and americans must reject him and stand up for our democracy this november. joining our conch is former lead investigator for the january 6th committee tim haity.

s and also joining us claire mccaskill. you also know everything there is no know from investigating the events in charlottesville donald trump's affinity for nazi germany is well documented in a couple of books about the trump presidency from my husband, from susan glasser, there's a lot of reporting on general kelley's deep concern about his affinity for who trump referred to as the german soldiers. this is not new for trump. >> no when i saw this story today, nicolle, it brought me right back to those comments that the then president made after charlottesville, right? literally in the wake of a horrific event where you have literal nazis marching through the town where i live, he says there are very fine people on both sides, praising those

neo-nazis that only made things worse. was like fuel on the fire of racism and anger that was on display in charlottesville. maybe once it's an accident, it's a misstep, but when it happens again and again and again, this imagery, as you said, praising the third reich, it's hard to call it an accident. and it has real consequences. we talk all the time, nicolle, on this show about how his words, the things that he posts, the things that he says are taken quite literally by a lot of people. we saw that on january 6th. >> claire, again, we don't do this often but to sort of underscore the points tim favy is making, here is trump in his own words. >> but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. you had people in that group -- excuse me, excuse me. we pledge to you that we will root out the communists,

marxists, fascists and the radical left thugs that live like vermen within the confines of our country. >> we have a lot of work to do, when they let -- i think the real number is 15, 16 million people into our country, when they do that, we have a lot of work to do. they're poisoning the blood of our country. >> trump gets graded on a curve, claire, because he's void as so ignorant, and he is that, but by now, vermin, poisoning our country, these are things that he's acutely aware of and says them on purpose. >> a couple of things. first, if this was a staffer that did this and it's a really serious mistake, and what a normal campaign would do is immediately make that staffer leave the campaign and there would be consequences for something that is so unbelievably out of line for a

man trying to run to be in charge of, i think, one of the most important democracies in the world in terms of how it was established and how long it's been in existence and how the rule of law has maintained itself even through political ups and downs. and the other thing, nicolle, i don't think we do enough of is talking about how trump is worse today than he was in 2020, and much worse than he was in 2016. the things he says are more extreme. he celebrates more the dark corners of dictatorship. he says he would eliminate the constitution. he brags about using the military in a domestic way in our country. not against foreign enemies, but here against people in this country. he talks about deporting 15 million people, ignoring what the current law is in this country in terms of their

status. so it is really much worse than it was before, and he brags about how he will no longer have anybody around him that is not willing to go as far as he wants to go. i mean, this is really scary stuff. >> yeah, i mean, tim, i think that january 6 for him was the opening up, right, of a new chapter and it wasn't the funneling in of the behavior because he got caught, it was the opening up and the embrace of political violence. he can read a poll, i'm not sure what else he reads, but he can read a poll and he sees that he has successfully moved a lot of members of his own base to accept, when necessary, political violence. what do you make of all these dots, that, again, at this point it's on us if we don't connect them. >> yeah, you know, we developed some evidence during the select committee's investigation about dan scoveno's role as the portal

to social media that he would monitor and then sometimes repost or repost things, and there were times where there were pretty explicit coded messages that were appealing to these extremist groups. so there's no question that what you call dots are not accidents, they are intentional. january 6, if there was ever the need for a manifestation of the power that he can unleash with this hateful, vial rhetoric, there it is. and in a weird way maybe that's empowering to him or that he sees it as another source of his own agency and power, but it's -- but as senator mccaskill says it's horribly destructive. i don't think it matters if this was a staffer or not, the fact that he would have someone working for him that would not see this as a problem and the fact that no one has been held accountable for t i don't think that makes any difference at all. anything that goes out under his name he's ultimately responsible for. so i really think these are dots that are intentional, not accidental, and we need to pay

attention to them. >> yeah, claire, stand by and stand by was a perfect example. i remember talking to a senior debate adviser and he said, oh, he's going to walk it back. i said, no, he isn't. he never walked it back and they showed up on january 6. for anyone looking for the specifics on his affection and affinity for nazi germany, this is from the divider by peter baker and susan glasser, quote, the president's loud complaint to john kelly one day was typical, quote, you effing generals. we could stop there and say, oh, my god, but i will keep going. why can't you be like the general generals. which generals john kelly asked. the german generals in world war ii trump responded. you do know they tried to kill hitler three times and almost pulled it off kly said. of course trump did not know that. no, no, no, they were totally loyal to him the president said. the general says the third reich had been completely subservient to hitler, this was the model he

wanted for his military. even in wanting to model nadsy germany he gets it wrong, claire. >> yeah, and you reading that quote reminds me that there are important leaders in the military that are retired now that i believe have a duty to speak up at this moment, including john kelly. i know john kelly. i think at his core he is a good man. i think he thought he was doing the right thing, serving donald trump, and i think he tried to stick to his principles in spite of the headwinds he faced in that position. mattis is the same. milley is the same. it would be very powerful for these retired top military leaders to begin to sound the alarm to the american people. there are a lot of swing voters that respect the leadership of our military and understand that at its base it is nonpolitical. their voices would be very powerful in this debate and i hope before november they speak up. >> i mean, the country was asked if you see something, say

something, after september 11th. these generals saw everything and i, too, hope that they say something. tim heaphy, claire mccaskill, thank you for spending some time with us on this important story. up next for us, we will return to the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president. 22 witnesses later, more than 80 hours of testimony later, the prosecution and the defense wrapped today. we will set up what is to come when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. anywhere.

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specifically pecker told trump and cohen he would be their, quote, eyes and ears on stories that could be damaging to trump. >> later toward the end of the testimony when he was asked why did you pay stormy daniels and he said it was to help the campaign. >> hicks said that trump believed the decision to bury the story before the election was prudent at the time. >> so michael cohen's sending of

the invoice is what generates the false business records and it wasn't michael cohen's idea. hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. revelation after revelation after revelation, document after document after document, witness after witness over the course of 80 hours of testimony across 16 days a great deal has been learned, a great deal has been brought to light about those hush money payments to adult film star stormy daniels and the reimbursement of that payment to former trump fixer michael cohen. moments ago court adjourned for the day and donald trump's first criminal trial. earlier the defense rester after calling up just two witnesses, neither of them being the ex-president himself, meaning the jury is now one step closer to having this case in their hands for deliberations. in just the last hour judge merchan worked out the instructions he will provide to the jury for when they are handed the case, a meeting "the

new york times" describes this way, jury instructions are typically meant to translate legal treatises into something intelligible to the 12 lay people who will decide the case. the instructions provide jurors with a roadmap to help them apply the law to the facts they have gleaned from the witnesses, documents and other evidence that have been presented to them. it's what our friend andrew weissmann in the last hour called nerdy stuff, a lot of specific wordings and definitions and applications of new york laws. but getting all that straightened out between both sides is of utmost importance because it lays out the parameters for the jurors to make their ultimate decisions. the final showdown between the prosecution and defense set to take place next tuesday when both sides present their summations before the jury who then begin their deliberations, deciding whether the ex-president is guilty of any of the 34 felony counts of falsifying business records for which he was charged. he could face a maximum of four years in prison if convicted.

it's where we start the hour, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman is back with us, david kelly is here, he served as chief of fdny's crime and terrorism unit, also joining us contributor editor for new york magazine andrew rice. i need to ask you about costello. i understand -- how could they put him up and have the last thing the jury hear -- i mean, you prosecute you had organized crime, they are the mobiest pieces of black and white paper that the jury has seen about trump's conduct. >> i think it was a real backfire for the defense lawyers. i thought it create this had milieu of slime and that he was there for no reason but to be an enforcer for the boss and try to co opt him. i think that just -- it really

rang out through the emails and through the testimony. so you have to wonder, you know, who is driving this train. is it the lawyers or is it the client? >> do you have any questions? >> no. >> it's the client. i mean, can i just read to you -- i mean, the way it ends, to me a piece of information that the jury otherwise would not have known. the prosecutor asks do you have animosity against michael cohen? costello says no. she says, last week didn't you go to the house of representatives to testify about michael cohen? he answers, i was asked to testify, yes. prosecutor, and you went there to publicly vilify michael cohen while he was on the stand. hoffinger asked if costello knew that his comments against michael cohen would be publicized in the press. costello says, no, he didn't know, but it was reasonable to expect they would be. prosecutor, and it was an effort by you to intimidate michael cohen while he was testifying here? costello, intimidate michael cohen? prosecutor, yes, that's my

question. answer, intimidate michael cohen, no. hoffinger, nothing further, your honor. she just entered into evidence something the jury other jies wouldn't have known which is last week while cohen was testifying in the courthouse this witness who was the only one who resulted the courthouse being cleared twice while on stand was threatening and intimidating the witness last week. >> it was a backfire. it was to show what he was doing with cohen in the first place. he was trying to say, hey, we will keep you close, the same thing that trump did. keep him close, keep friendly with him and make sure he doesn't say anything. and that really just oozed out of his testimony. >> spills out. andrew rice, tell us how this went down today inside. >> well, i think that, you know, after costello's testimony ended in such chaos yesterday, there was a lot of wonder -- i think a lot of people were wondering exactly how crazy it was going to get. susan hoffinger was very, very

skilled on her cross-examination, i think a lot of people agreed it was the best cross-examination we saw during the entire trial. and she kept him very corralled in giving short answers that addressed evidence that was -- that she presented, including emails that just were incredibly incriminating, an email that said -- in which he discussed michael cohen at a time when he was purportedly representing michael cohen with his law partner saying, you know, can you believe this jerk. he used a word stronger than jerk, but can you believe this jerk, he's playing with the most powerful person on the planet. the most powerful person on the planet being donald trump. so really kind of sounding his -- really taking part in a scheme to intimidate michael cohen out of -- out of cooperating with the government. >> i mean, andrew, we don't know how interested the jurors are in the narrative sweep of any of this, right? we have no idea.

we have no idea what they think of any witness -- >> i think they were very, very -- >> go ahead. >> they were very, very interested in costello's testimony. i think that as much as any witness that testified, you saw a lot of real kind of audible and visual cues that the jury was listening very closely. one juror actually at one point kind of laughed, you know, at some things he said. i mean, you know, there's really like -- there are a number -- there are two lawyers on this jury and i think some of the lawyers heard how this attorney, robert costello, responded to a judge in the courtroom and at least one of the two lawyers on the jury looked to be sort of aghast. >> and that was my question, that whether you were a juror who was inclined to ride sort of the story, the narrative sweep of this or not, what you know about this witness is that whatever he did and you're saying at least a few of them are aware of it, it resulted in

the courthouse, including the press, being cleared for the first time in 19 days. how did that land? >> well, the jury did not see the press get kicked out, so that -- that part they may or may not know. i mean, who knows how soundproof those doors are, but they could see things like robert costello rolling his eyes or they could see him say, geez, when merchan sustained an objection that the prosecution made. so i think it came through loud and clear that this was a witness who was challenging the judge's authority and typically juries do not like it when witnesses challenge a judge's authority. >> harry litman, we have gone over this entire cross. i will not for our dear readers' benefit reread the whole thing but i do want to get you on the record on this. hoffinger had an opportunity to ask costello about what -- i

think what have been some of the strongest pieces of evidence and that's the paper, the checks that were fraudulent documents, the emails that he sent. this is an email that costello, the defense's one sort of narrator witness sent, quote, i spoke to rudy. very, very positive. you are loved. if you want to call me, i will give you the details. i told him everything you told me. rudy said this communication channel must be maintained. sleep well tonight. you have friends in high places. some very positive comments about you from the white house. rudy didn't work at the white house, only trump did, and he didn't deny that he was talking about trump. what's the impact of this being the last piece of evidence the jury hears before they're gone for a week? >> sleep well tonight, you have friends in high places. you know, milieu of slime indeed. as andrew says all of those things happened in front of the jury with costello. one other thing happened, he cleared the courtroom. that's the principal coming to

second grade. they definitely took notice and i think they understood why it was happening and if i can just go to the cross, technically it was a superb cross and the way it ended, nicolle, as you put t she goes right up to the point of saying, come on, you were trying to intimidate him. no further questions. the idea is in the mind of the jurors and then she stops. contrast that with team trump who repeatedly, including here, his last question on reredirect to costello was, objection, sustained, no further questions. they repeatedly asked the extra question that they shouldn't have and flailed in doing so. so i think it was a backfire. remember, this was a witness who was just supposed to be there to contradict a couple statements cohen had made when he was on team trump as he had said. that wasn't going to be that probative anyway and instead it highlighted the mobiest and most sort of center aspect of the whole trump relationship or

failed relationship to cohen. >> and, again, it seems to me, harry, if the jury is going to be asked to decide whether a criminal conspiracy was created or entered into in this trump tower meeting in 2015 with trump, pecker and cohen, and whether the cover up is the crime that the prosecution says it is, having trump on the record in this email that was, again, read to the jury today from costello to michael cohen, quote, michael, i just spoke to rudy giuliani, i told him i was on your team. rudy was thrilled and said this could not be a better situation for the president or you. he asked me if it was okay to call the president and jay sekulow who was the president's lawyer, i said fine. the president gets implicated by the defense team's one witness. how does a jury hear that? >> yeah, and there's one that's even stronger of costello to his partner basically making clear he's doing this as a back channel thing to the president and why did this come in? because costello testified, to try to impeach him.

we had heard a little about it but this was really driven home to the jury. how does a jury hear that? i think the way you and i hear that, as indication that cohen was being really isolated and tried to be coerced to stay on the reservation and he was smart enough not to do it. i think it's pretty straightforward. and, again, this is how they close. this is the final thing the jury takes with them. now a week passes, it's interesting which way that plays, but this was a -- a whimper not a bang of a defense case. >> we talked a little bit about how you use a witness like cohen, and you talked about how they had laid out all of this corroboration and he sort of comes on after all that evidence is in. they couldn't have planned for this, i suppose, but when it's book ended by getting to put these emails back into the record, that seems -- >> yeah, so the prosecution started off by laying out this whole scheme to cover this up and they ended with a whole

scheme to cover up, but through the defense witness. >> right. >> so it's really -- we talk about backfiring, but book ends is a good way of putting t you started with the story, you concluded with that story and it's hard to see, you know, as you were saying before if the jurors and andrew rice was -- if the jurors are laughing or looked aghast, if i'm -- if i put this witness up i'm not -- i'm troubled. >> what do you think was important in terms of what happened today regarding the jury instructions? >> so the jury instructions is not something you see on tv, but it is, you know, when you talk about trials in movies and so forth no one ever talks about the jury instructions. that's one of the crucial -- you have jury selection, a big thing, opening, big thing, getting the evidence in, big thing, but the big thing also is the jury instructions and how are you going to explain to the jury how they should apply the law. and most of it is boilerplate stuff. the crucial part and where you get in a lot of advocacy is

how -- you know, some of the nuances and how it should be applied to the particular facts in the case. that's where you really need some good lawyering and good thoughtfulness on the part of a lawyer, particularly here in a case where it's a unique charge. i don't think it's unprecedented or -- but there's some nuances here that need to be addressed effectively. so it's a really important part of the trial and it also explains -- it will help be an indication to the lawyers how they can close up and give their summations. >> and the journalists who were here sort of tracking it while it was still happening said that most of the rulings had gone against the defense and some of that pertained to the underlying crime which we talked about last time. >> i think probably because they were looking for more than they should get. >> right. >> more than they reasonably should get. i haven't looked at it, you know, at the transcript, but, look, there are some nuances in the law here, they're probably trying to create a record for appeal if he should be convicted, but they made -- they

may have overshot what they should be looking for here which is, again, who is making the decisions here, the client or the lawyers. >> andrew, we took a peek -- trying to figure out how costello happens, right, even before he results in all of his emails, bullying, it's actually worse than bullying, pressuring cohen to not cooperate with the government. this is in the heat of the mueller investigation, 2018 and costello saying rudy and the president are your friends in high places. before that happened we were looking at how costello ended up being the guy who creates the most dramatic flash point and there are hours of coverage of him on fox news. laura ingraham calls him a kill shot witness. how vulnerable and susceptible was this legal team to conservative media commentary? >> well, you know, it's hard to know what went into their

calculations about who to call and who not to call. they were pretty limited in what they could do. i mean, they were told that they -- they were sharply constrained in terms of trying to call an expert witness on -- on some of the finer points of election law, and i think donald trump was, you know, probably wisely advised not to testify. so they were left with what did they need to do? the most important thing that they needed to do was undermine michael cohen's credibility. so costello was supposed to be the witness who would say actually what he said in 2018, 2019 was that donald trump knew nothing about all of this stuff, he had no information to give to federal prosecutors, and he flipped because he wanted to cut himself a deal. and so he got that out in between defense objections -- or prosecution objections and the courtroom clearing and the eye rolling. he told those little pieces of

information, but i think it will get lost in the -- in the larger kind of morass of everything that surrounded his testimony and the dramatics and frankly the disregard and kind of insolence that he conveyed that in a way i think probably is -- he stands in a little bit as a substitute for donald trump in that case. you know, you get a little taste of how maybe donald trump's testimony would have gone down. >> that's such a good point, which of course donald trump did not testify, he ended up not testifying before the mueller investigation, either. he never does what he says he wants to do. harry, just quickly, you tell me, it seems that some of this might end up being relative, right? and, again, we stipulate every day we have no idea how the jury is going to make their decision, but relative to costello, cohen by the end of the day today is sympathetic and a victim of a potential pressure campaign from the oval office.

>> yeah, the important point here, i think, is going on what andrew said, the media narrative, we tend to look for high points and cover them breathlessly, but the jury just receives a stream of narrative. i was there for the supposed big punch and it just kind of went past. so i think they will absorb it differently from how we do. i just want to second what david said, there is a really tricky legal point, we don't know how he, merchan, will resolve it yet. he won't tell us until thursday. the defense's overreach but if they win that one complicated point of how you take the misdemeanor and make it a felony, that will become donald trump's last best chance of escaping conviction. >> is there any sort of art or science to how you close after a week off? feels like the biggest gap. >> no. look, i think you do pretty much -- you want to start and you want to retell the story. let me tell you -- remind you what you heard over the last couple of weeks.

and then i'm going to tell you from whom you heard it and why you should believe them. so it's kind of like a three-step process and then kind of book end it, again, by wrapping it up. i might even wrap it up by let's come back to mr. costello's testimony and why it is you know that this was a cover up from day one. >> and that you heard -- >> lots of graphics. >> what? go ahead, harry. >> lots of graphics, pictures, transcripts that they will read over. it will be a very visual, much more than the testimony has been. >> and they get to take those documents in with them if they want them, right? >> it's up to the judge, but typically, yes. >> all right. we will continue to call on you for your expertise. none of these -- none of these days have been what we thought they were going to be. thank you for taking us through it, david kelly, andrew rice, harry comes back later in this hour. when we come back another prosecution of the disgraced ex-president, fani willis' election case in fulton county, jury, what she's saying to rachel maddow about the

republicans attacking her and endangering the rule of law in the country. plus more alligations that supreme court justice alito is engaging in partisan politics just days after news broke that an upside down american flag flew above the alito household in the aftermath of the deadly january 6 insurrection. a new story breaking today on how alito dunked analyzer busch stock when bud light partnered with a transgender influencer. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. eak. don't go anywhere. (vo) red hot deal days are here. only until may 29th. get a bundle of your choice on us. so you'll get a free phone and a smartwatch and a tablet. yep, all 3 on us only at verizon.

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the history of the rule of

law in this country tells us that the rule of law does not magically defend itself and it is mortal, it can be killed, when it is attacked it breaks. the rule of law in this country in practical terms is made up of people doing hard jobs who themselves can break when they are attacked. and right now you and i, all of us, we are making history in this country. and the history that we are making is that there's no one defending fani willis but herself. if you missed it go back and watch it. that was my colleague rachel maddow's opening last night, speaking truth to power -- speaking truth to all of us frankly when it comes to the attacks being sustained by fulton county district attorney fani willis day after day. she is overseeing the election interference case against the ex-president and co-defendants. willis has had to defend herself since she took office in 2020.

she's had to defend herself and her family from violet threats, and also legally and politically as she's faced efforts to try to get her removed from the case against ex-president donald trump. it is all part of a trend of concerted efforts by republicans to trample over the rule of law when someone is doing their job and holding the ex-president accountable. here is what da willis had to say to those trying to stop her. >> having prosecutors that are free from interference and are allowed to just look at cases, look at the facts and if people brought -- broke the law to bring charges has to go on for us to live in a free society. the sad part, though, for all of them, ms. maddow is it doesn't matter how many times they attack me, i am not going to be broken, i am still going to be standing here doing my job lawfully. >> joining our coverage msnbc political contributor greg

bluestien is back with us, plaus amanda carpenter and with us at the table director of the public policy program at hunter college msnbc contributor basal michael is here. greg, when it isn't in the national news doesn't mean it isn't happening. the attacks on fani willis have been relentless, they came after a whole bunch of people started flipping on donald trump. it was a concerted effort to smear her and out a romantic consensual relationship with another person on the legal team. and rachel made a pretty powerful point that there's nobody defending fani willis. >> and they're happening every day, as you mentioned. sometimes they make national news, sometimes they don't. sometimes they're tweets from public officials, elected officials, sometimes they're just from, you know, random residents from outside of georgia and sometimes they're

from her very own district. i've seen her out here in fulton county and around the district with armed guards, multiple armed guards in many cases. we've heard the stories about how after she announced the indictments against former president trump and his allies she had to have a body double because there was significant death threats against her. you've heard her talk about the precautions she and her family have had to take, she had to move out from her house, she's had to curtail a lot of her public activities. even when she's going to a joyous occasion in atlanta like a parade she has armed guards all around her. >> the list is really long, but ruby freeman, rusty bauer, brad raffensperger, liz cheney, adam kinzinger, jim comey come to mind, anyone who goes anywhere close to any effort to remotely hold donald trump accountable legally or politically gets burned and that only happens with the republican elected officials and party officials doing their -- doing his dirty

work. how do you break that fever? >> yeah, you know, nicolle, i think it's really hard to appreciate the scope of harassment that fani willis is under. i will admit, i tracked this pretty closely and until i started reading about her -- she's in the news today because she has a democratic primary and the attacks will only increase when it goes into the general election. just imagine you are in the position of prosecuting a former president which is a pretty big deal, you're also campaigning to keep your job, you also have to deal with these violent threats that are coming to your office. if that wasn't enough there is a really swirling effort by elected republicans to use their positions in office to conduct -- you know, the only word that comes to mind is harassment from their positions of power. it is not just by republicans that are doing it to advance their own political careers, these are republicans that have a vested interest in the outcome of these prosecutions of january

6. someone like lieutenant governor bert jones, he was a false elector, republican, house member jim jordan who was closely involved in these activities is threatening her with investigations and contempt of congress, as well as senators ron johnson who was also involved in donald trump's efforts to overturn the election. so there is a lot going on here and, you know, she does get criticized because she does speak out in ways that probably wouldn't be advised by many communications professionals including myself, but this is the game that a lot of the maga people play. they throw everything at the wall at you and hopes that you can't play perfect ball, right? in hopes that you make a mistake and you get knocked off your game. so i just -- the amount of pressure that this person must be under to do her job is tremendous. >> let me show you what she had to say last night about jim jordan's efforts to interfere in her investigation.

>> anyone who knows jim jordan's history knows that he only has the purpose of trying to interfere in a criminal investigation. he has now turned his tricks to he's going to look at grant programs, which i invite him to do and we have complied with his subpoenas, but yet he continues his attacks to try to interfere in a criminal investigation. while -- all while his jurisdiction has one of the worst crime rates, has poverty issues and not one time has he used his position to try to investigate people who are attacking me and attacking others legitimately doing their jobs, making him illegitimate in his position and it's disgusting. >> what's interesting that she reframed jim jordan around the frame that we should have for him. he did traveling hearings on the politicization -- i mean, that's not real, but he does have a job

and no one ever walks down the halls of congress and asks him what kind of progress he is making on the job the taxpayers pay him to do. >> that's exactly right. it dovetails with what we were talk being last time i was here which is that they never show this much energy in the job they should be doing. if they're trying to uncover or get to the bottom of these mass shootings at schools do they have the same energy? they do not. they project that. let me talk about fani willis and the position she's in. 95% -- 95% of the elected district attorneys in this country are white. 1% of them are people of color. if you think about the position that she's in and alvin bragg and tish james, the attacks are absolutely racial and they also are a wedge. what some conservatives are saying, what a lot have said, particularly some of the suburban ones around new york city in some of the recent races is that these folks do not have the ability to actually do their

job. we have to come in and do it for them. it's a very paternalist i can way of talking about people of color in these positions that hold an extraordinary amount of power. they've been used as wedges in elections. when you listen to fani willis she's like bring it because i will come back with equal or more measure. >> greg, what basil is saying happened in georgia, they passed a law to prevent her from doing her job. >> they passed after oversight commission that was essentially -- it was brought because of another prosecutor of color in athens, clark county, but the first complaint lefd under this new commission was against fani willis. this is emblematic of the challenges she faces outside the courtroom. she's going to win her primary tonight but she wants to run up the score to see she has solid democratic support as she faces a tougher but still winnable

challenge against republican cramer in november. she's also facing two concurrent investigations from the georgia senate, engineered by lieutenant governor bert jones and of course you already mentioned the house judiciary investigations an all the other political investigations launched against her. >> burying them in paper, that is their strategy along with the harassment we've discussed. unbelievable. important interview last night with my colleague rachel maddow. thank you for joining us to talk about it. when we come back the drip, drip, drip, drip of ethical questions at the united states supreme court is becoming a firehouse. why justice alito is once again under scrutiny. we will bring you that new story after a very short break. l briny after a very short break easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis, help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier.

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we cannot get through a week around here without uttering a sentence with the noun, a verb, scandal and supreme court in it. there was another scandal involving supreme court justice samuel alito coming to light. alito is once again embroiled in controversy over allegations of his blatant and flagrant partisanship. just days after it came to light that a symbol of trump's stop the steal movement was displayed at alito's home, nbc news is reporting that he sold his stock in bud light's parent company amid a conservative right wing boycott of the brand due to its partnership with a transgender social media influencer. you could argue that selling stock of a company that's being

boycotted to be a purely financial decision, alito on the same day purchased the same amount of stock in coors, a beer company known for its conservative leanings. this news comes amid growing outrage over an upside down american flag, the symbol of support for the disgraced ex-president's efforts to steal the 2020 election being displayed outside the justices' house just days after the january 6 insurrection. if americans are hoping for any answers about alito's partisanship or whether he is too ethically compromised to serve as a member of the united states supreme court they should not hold their breath. senate judiciary chair dick durbin telling nbc news this committee does not plan to investigate alito's at all. no, we haven't got anything planned he said. i think he's explained his situation. the american public understand what he did. senator durbin said, but i don't think there's much to be gained with a hearing at this point.

i think he should recuse himself from -- the committee would do if alito refused to voluntarily recuse himself durbin responded, quote, there is -- and we are not at that point at all. alito has denied being personally responsible for the flag hanging upside down on his property, placing the blame on, wait for it, his wife. we're back with harry, amanda and basil. harry clerked for supreme court justices thurgood marshall and kennedy. amanda, i will start with you with a political question. republicans successfully put the court in front of voters for decades, it's part of why we're here and i guess you and i both share some culpability for that. i want to know what you make of democrats saying there's nothing we can do. >> yeah, well, here is the

thing, i'm still fairly conservative and the idea of an activist judge gives me the heebie-jeebies and there's nothing more activist than this kind of stuff, flying the flag inappropriately, but the idea that you can't do anything about it. listen, federal recusal law is very straightforward, it says any judge shall recuse when his or her impartiality may be questioned. so there can be a push on that, right? we do have laws that can be adhered to, but if those laws are not enforced by anyone and no one even wants to conduct any meaningful oversight of it, well, then they don't really matter, they are just words on paper. so, you know, you could go that route. there should be robust oversight not just of this improper display of the flag and disgusting, you know, signaling toward the january 6 insurrectionists. this isn't the first problem. the supreme court is plagued with ethics problems, period,

and our trust in the judicial system does not work if people can't trust these judges to be unbiased when they make their rulings. so i think robust oversight is long overdue and then, i mean, there are things on the table that you can talk about. congress can demand ethics reform of the sprefk even though judge alito seems tongs but congress league reg lates all kinds of things when it comes to the court including the number of justices they are on it. we can talk about term limits for the supreme court. so this idea that congress should throw up their hands and walk away from the fight because they want to play nice with the judges who don't respect any of the laws that are on the books doesn't make a lot of sense to me. >> harry litman, not for nothing, this is a body made up of nine human beings, two of the nine are married to people with sympathies that lie with the insurrection and the insurrectionists and their iconography. jimmy thomas sent emails to state legislaors encouraged to take part in what has been

charged criminally in the state of arizona as well as michigan and georgia. justice alito's wife if you believe justice alito and if you are watching my show, he's saying his wife turned the flag upside down in the days following january 6 which is exactly how the insurrectionists themselves displayed the american flag at the insurrection on january 6. that image was seen in our live coverage and in images of the insurrection over and over and over again. what should we expect to be possible in terms of understanding how two of nine human beings are associated with such extremist ideology? >> answers. i mean, what you've said, nicolle, is the very least this could be two extremist wives, but what justice alito said was his wife was the one who did it. i'm perplexed that durbin would say the american people understand this.

i think mitt romney had it right when they said we have to learn more. really what happens is what did justice alito know and when did he know it. the reports were that this was up for days and moreover, you know, at his home. if he had no knowledge, okay, it's a bizarre situation, a kind of one off, although two off because, as you say, ginni thomas, but if he knew this strikes me as far more serious than any of the things we've seen so far. the reason you worry about financial stakes is because maybe that would affect the balance of what a justice thinks on the substance. this is the substance, it's the substance of the most contentious national issue that there is and moreover it's not even like a policy disagreement. one side is right and one side is wrong. there wasn't a steal and if the eight justices actually knowingly flying outside his home a representation that there was a steal and an opposition to the peaceful transfer of power,

that is as bad a transgression as i think we've seen maybe in our lifetimes, far worse than the financial part. so we've just got to know and you can do that with a subpoena and a hearing, what did he know and when did he know it? is he really completely walled off or it's just that it was her action that he knew about. two very different scenarios. >> i have to get in a break but on the other side we were talking about the american people being asked to swallow two of nine human beings sitting on the u.s. supreme court being married to women they never talk to but issues they send hundreds of emails and fly a flag upside down in their front lawn. we will be right back. upside down in their front lawn we will be right back.

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energy that gets you to the next level. cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. cirkul, available at walmart and drinkcirkul.com. basil, the day that alito flag scandal broke senator blumenthal was on the show saying the same thing that this is a political question. maybe that's better, but the political conversation better have sharper teeth on it. and the public -- and they do understand this, that's why the supreme court has the fastest plunging approval rating from the public out of any institution, including the media, including congress and american civic life. the conversations get a lot more direct. two of the nine members are married to self-identified extremists. >> a, he believes his wife which is ridiculous, not to mention the fact that i was a cub scout at one point in my life. >> i can see that. >> i know the ramifications of hang ago flag upside down. you want to tell me that his

wife either didn't know or that somehow he was not aware of what had happened. if there were so many neighbors that called something, nobody called and said you have to take that flag down. we need to get to the bottom line here. when we go out and try to talk to young voters about the importance of voting they will come back and say something like this, i'm standing up every day to do the pledge of allegiance in my classroom yet a supreme court justice is hanging the flag upside down. what's the point? when we try to talk to them about the importance of these institutions they have no faith in the talk to these institutions they have no faith. we have to get beyond whether they vote for donald trump.

>> they won't do anything and if it makes you mad. sh we're not going to do that. >> the impeachment hearings. the home property. >> i tried to do that. the reality is the institution itself. it comes from.

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