florida's ban now in place. patients are already traveling to new york and in some cases even further north because that is the only viable, legal option for care. and as that continues, as we also see anti-abortion movement, more emboldened, more aggressively pushing for national restrictions, the implications no matter where you live will only become more significant. >> the new book, life and death decisions in post-roe america. you follow these stories on the ground really closely. thank you and congrats on the book. thank you for getting up way too early with us on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" kicks off right now. they don't want donald trump holding rallies. what happens at his rallies. this is five weeks sitting in a courtroom when she houb out reaching the american people and telling the american people what he would like to do for this country. who shows up? tens of thousands of people show up that donald trump rallies. the democrats hate it. there's not another person on

the plan thaet can do that other than the pope. the pope. >> republican congressman troy nells of texas with a totally normal comparison for the former president, the pope. a recap of what happened yesterday in donald trump's criminal hush money trial in just a moment. plus, trump's comments about birth control that he quickly had to walk back. also ahead a former senior adviser to president obama lays out an alarming supreme court scenario for democrats if donald trump were to win in november. we'll play for you that warning. that's another one, elizabeth. we'll get to that. so good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, may 22nd. we're in washington. the table is going what are we talking about today? with us we have u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay, elizabeth b. miller and deputy managing editor for

politics at politico, sam stein is with us. we'll start with donald trump's criminal trial where testimony in the former president's hush money trial has officially finished. the defense only called two witnesses. and yesterday, rested their case. former president trump did not testify in his own defense, despite telling the press multiple times that he wanted to. >> do you plan to testify in your trial in new york? >> yeah, i would testify absolutely. it's a scam. it's a scam. >> president trump, are you going to testify? >> yes. >> will the gag order top you from testifying? >> no, it won't stop me from testifying. the gag order is not for testifying. >> do you plan to testify in court? >> probably so. i would like to. i mean, i think so. >> i mean, the story of his life. who shocked me? nobody is shocked. this is a guy that said, of course, i'm going to testify. i'm going to testify. you knew he wasn't going to testify for a couple reasons.

one, he's just a walking perjury machine. seriously, you got a new ice cream machine that you say makes ice cream really quickly? >> creamy, by ninja. >> well, he's a ninja perjury machine, right? you stand in front of it for -- >> i'll never look at the creamy the same way. >> and it creates instant perjury. so we all knew he was lying. and it is a lie all along. he knew he wasn't going to testify. again, i wonder who is stupid enough to believe him? right? i wonder -- i wonder why his voters that keep going back to this guy when -- because it's not just about -- it's about everything. oh, you know what, i've got to plan for abortion that everybody's going to love. and i'm going to talk about it. and then he comes back on states rights. and then he goes, i've got a plan for healthcare. it's two weeks away.

of course those two weeks turn into two more weeks. he has no plan for healthcare because he has no plan for anything positive for america. yesterday, we'll get to this in a second, what about contraceptions? oh, i've got a plan for that. you're going to love it. it's a smart plan. we're going to take it back to the states. and then again, you know, we'll take it back to the states which means that clarence thomas was right. first they were coming for abortion. then they were going for contraception and marriage equality and keep going on. that's what he believes in his heart. and then he gets back -- for a guy that really doesn't believe anything that is one thing he believes. that states should be able to take away women's right to get contraceptives, to have abortions, whatever. then he goes back to his campaign, that was really stupid, donald. you're really dumb, donald. you need to change your opinion, donald. you're an idiot, donald. that's what they're say to him. i'm surprise that i had talk to him that way. they do, i guess.

then he changes his mind. oh, wait. no wait. those are democrats that are -- no, they're not democrats. just like the democrat saying that he was going to testify when the whole world knew he was lying about testifying because he would perjure himself on the stand and is afraid of what he would have to admit about this tawdry encounter with a porn star and a payoff through michael cohen. >> okay. so when asked -- >> that's what i have to say, mika. >> thank you. thank you, very much. >> thank you, joe. >> right out of the box he's awake. i was worried when i talked to him on the phone that he was sleepy. he already had -- >> he had his ice cream. >> okay. you done good. >> you know what it is, mika, it's so funny, i called elizabeth yesterday as well. >> huh oh. >> it's not just me. it's everybody in the times washington bureau, when they're tired, they drink rudy's drip

coffee. >> oh, which you drink black? >> no, i don't drink black. >> okay. >> has anyone tried the coffee yet? >> rudy says it's really good. >> no. >> i'm interested. >> nobody has tried the coffee. >> i'm interested. >> no. >> sam. >> i'm interested. >> it's the hair dye sweat mixed in that gives it a special flavor. >> you have to report it out. >> then you put it in the ninja and wow, it's fluffy. so when asked why -- >> yummy. >> what do you think is in the mug? >> oh my god. this is not real, is it? it is. that's the problem. >> yeah, unfortunately. this is our world, 2024. >> can you sell? >> center. okay, when asked why he didn't take the stand, because the defense has rested in donald trump's criminal hush money trial, the former president refused to answer. >> why did you decide against testifying in your case?

did you not want to take the stand? >> wow. >> so the trial is now on break for the memorial day holiday. and will resume next tuesday, may 28th, for closing arguments. judge juan merchan has confirmed there will be court next wednesday, making that the first possible day for jury deliberations. let's bring in former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor chuck rosenberg. chuck, your thoughts on donald trump's inability or refusal to participate in this probably his team got him to not testify because i don't think they would have liked that. and just what about this big gap now and then what happens scheduling wise for this trial where we might be waiting for a verdict. what's the timeline? >> yeah. well, let me start with the first thing first, mika, if i may. good morning.

>> good morning. >> it's actually a smart decision by mr. trump, so don't often use the words smart decision and mr. trump in the same sentence. but it would be rare for a defendant in a criminal case to testify. of the 50 or so criminal cases i prosecuted, i probably saw that happen two or three times. and it never, never went well for the defendant when he or she took the stand. and so, putting mr. trump's noise aside, putting the braggadocious aside, it actually was a smart, strategic decision for him not to testify. prosecutors were ready. i think he would have been shredded. and so i think resting without calling mr. trump was a good legal decision. what happens now? well, right now both side are working with the judge to fashion jury instructions. that will be the judge's legal

road map for the jury when they begin their deliberations. jurors are the judges of the facts. but the judge supplies the law to the jury to help guide their deliberations. and then next week, both sides will have the opportunity to argue, to close, to sum up the trial. and after that, mika, the case goes to the jury and we await their verdict. >> chuck, why do these jury instructions matter so much to both sides? >> yeah. you know, it's a great question. there's not an obvious answer unless you're a lawyer and you sat through this thing. by the way, sitting through this thing can be painful. i hated this part of trial. once the defense rested, i felt like i was done, but i wasn't. so here is an example. and just an example, but imagine that the government wants to prove that mr. trump caused the entry of false records. they want to prove that the ledgers and the documents were false and that mr. trump caused them to be false. so, a discussion perhaps only a

lawyer could love. what does it mean to cause something? so, i'm holding a mug of water in front of me right now. if you wanted me to cause me to drop this, you could knock it out of my hand. you would be directly causing me to drop this. you could get joe to knock it out of my hand. you would be using a proxy to get me to drop this. you could sneak up behind is this and scare me and maybe i would drop it, so you weren't directly causing me to drop it but you were indirectly causing me to drop it. and so, the government wants a broad definition of cause, not just that he made those entries directly himself, but he caused someone else to do it. on the other hand, the defense would want a very narrow definition of cause. liability for defense from their perspective ought to be narrow. there the prosecution, ought to be broader. getting the judge to give the right definition of cause. you knock this out of my hand,

got someone else to knock this out of my hand, scared me and dropped it helps the prosecution. a narrow definition of causality could help the defense. >> and -- >> and please, please, mika i just want to remind everybody, please, nobody knocked that out of chuck's hand. there actually is rudy coffee inside of it. it burns through table tops. and your lower intestines like sulfuric acid. let's keep that right there. there it is. made with some special ingredients that, well, let's just say are banned in 47 states. chuck, i want to talk about this time that you said you hated. as an attorney, where you're just sitting and waiting. i would watch older lawyers. i wasn't like especially going to the courtroom, i had a very narrowly defined specialty at the law firm where i worked and that was windows. they thought i cleaned windows very well. that's what i did most of the day.

but i watch actually the seasoned attorneys and they would sit and be waiting for the jury. and they hated it. and they hated it because you never knew what was going to happen, right? >> that's right. >> you know what, 90% of the time it's right. but you know what, you lose some you should never win and you win some you should never lose. so that's when i hear people on tv trying to predict how a jury is going to come back, despite what where they are, whether in new york or northwest florida. nobody knows because they really do -- they take their job seriously. and once they get behind those doors, it just takes on its own life, doesn't it? >> oh, absolutely, joe. i can say with confidence that i felt my case went in well. i introduced the evidence i wanted to introduce. i obtained the answers from our witnesses that i wanted to obtain. but it would be crazy, foolish

for me to tell you that i knew what a jury was going to do. and i think the reason i hated that part so much is that maybe as prosecutors we're a bit of control freaks. and this is the thing we absolutely cannot control. once the case is submitted to the jury, it's their's and their's alone. and all you can do is sit and wait. so i will never tell you that i know what a jury is going to do. i will tell you that i think the government's case here went in well. well enough to sustain a conviction. whether or not that happens, i have absolutely no idea. >> can i ask a question? >> okay. elizabeth, go for it. >> chuck, so what is the -- i've heard repeatedly how good the government's case is. what would you guess would be the -- if trump is acquitted, why would the jury do that? what evidence would they hang that acquittal on? >> yeah, elizabeth, in order to equit they also have to be

unanimous. an acquittal or conviction requires a 12-0 verdict. anything in between would be a mistrial, hung jury. to answer your question, in my experience when a jury acquits, right, and so that's a unanimous verdict, it's typically, not always, but typically because they have some question about whether the government met its burden of proof. that's significant burden. it's proof beyond a reasonable doubt. i will add this, i think it's really important, can this jury acquit? absolutely. will this jury acquit? i have no idea. but an acquittal is never a vote by a jury that someone is innocent. they are not asked that question. it is guilty or not guilty. and so, often when there's an acquittal, the press immediately touts it as a finding of innocence. that is not the finding. but it would typically, elizabeth, be predicated on a belief by unanimous jury that the government failed to meet its burden of proof.

>> all right. former u.s. attorney chuck rosenberg, thank you so much for your analysis this morning. of course, we'll see you again soon. though he's not testifying, donald trump is still talking a lot. yesterday he unleashed a new line of attack against judge juan merchan upon leaving the courthouse. the former president accused the judge of hating him and having bias against him because of where the judge comes from. >> the judge hates donald trump. just take a look. take a look at him. take a look at where he comes from. he can't stand donald trump. he's doing everything in his power. >> sam, what's he talking about? >> i mean, this is typical trump, right? this is the same exact or version of the line he did back in the 2016 campaign where he said the judge against him in the trump university case was biased because he was from mexico. he wasn't as explicit in this case. >> that was pretty clear.

>> where he comes from could be -- and i think deliberately phrased to be interpreted however the viewer wants. but i think we all know what the implication was. and you know, all of this is sort of surreal. that statement in its own right would have been a shock to the system six, seven years ago. and it was. i remember how we felt when it first happened. but it's become sort of normalized because we've been so inundated with trump. and i think on the macro scale, too, we just had a 15-minute conversation about a potential -- the presumptive gop nominee might have a guilty verdict in a hush money payment for a porn star. i think sometimes we don't really step back and say to ourselves that what we're living through is a very tense, tumultuous and frankly surreal life. and i think the thing that's almost more interesting than all of that is the degree to which -- if you talk to

democrats, they'll admit as much, the degree to which it's not breaking through. and by that i mean -- >> right. >> the polls don't move. trump's base doesn't move. we have lawmakers who are willingly going to the -- >> there's an acceptance happening. >> there's acceptance to it and it's become baked into our political psyche at this point. >> joe? >> well, i mean, elizabeth, it's -- it says it's far more than just concerning or nerve racking. this is just open, blatant racism that's now been sort of mainstreamed into american political life. this did shock people back in 2016 when he was talking about the judge from mexico. but here is a guy now that says take a look at him. look at him. see where he's from. and i will tell you, this is what separates donald trump for myself, from me or for most americans. i look at him and go, madison avenue? upper east side?

that's what i see when i see him. i'm dead serious. donald trump speaks in code because he wants people to see the judge as another. everybody is another unless their immigrant parents were from scotland and germany. and so, you have people -- i'll just go back to it. what did john meachum call it, the clubhouse -- the clubhouse set that are totally fine with. >> the grill. >> the grill. yeah. the men's club grill at country clubs that are perfectly fine voting for a guy who talks about vermin, a nazi term, who also uses sort of the fascist slogan of go back to where you came from for sitting members of the congress that don't happen to be white. and then, yesterday, just take a look at him. just say, seriously? like what is this, 1933?

it is -- it still needs to be shocking to us today. >> but, you know, here is -- trump has also said we need more people coming from norway and the scan da knave yan countries. the population has become use to it. can you imagine if another politician had said something like that? we would be talking about it for days. with trump, it's just -- we're used to it. it's discounted. >> and he's bringing up a whole new set of generation. i was trying to think of the right word, category, of politicians who do speak this way. and you see them in congress. and again, the reaction -- there's so much of it, joe, that -- >> right. >> it's hard to keep track. and again, you know, without going into the origins of fascism and cults, that's exactly how it starts when there's chaos, there's a fire

hose of this type of information and it's too much to keep up with. and overall communities and different -- whether it's the media or voters or political organizations become desensitized. >> yeah. and you know -- and the voters -- i won't say they become desensitized because that's giving them far, far too much leniency. >> what's the word? >> the fact is -- well, i mean, they're voting for a racist. they're -- it is an active choice to vote for someone who said in december of -- and i know this because i was a lifelong republican who on this show in early december of 2015, when he was talking about muslim registry said i would never vote for a man like that in my life, regardless of if it were my father or a woman if it was my mother, i would never.

right? that's an active choice to say i'm going to vote for him even though he's supporting muslim registries. i'm going to vote for him even though he's using the old fascist line, go back to where you came from. i'm going to vote for him, these men grill enablers are saying, when he says, just take a look at him. look at where he's from. this isn't a passive choice. this isn't a, oh, i'm so dumb. they can't even hear what he's saying. no. this is them hearing that he's a racist, hearing that he -- a racist. these are racist terms. they would have been used by everybody in both parties. i kept going back to that iowa congressman keen who got kicked out of the caucus for saying far less in 2015. >> by other republicans. >> by the republicans. this is no trump derangment

syndrome because republicans and democrats, pre-donald trump in 2016 would have considered any of these statements disqualifying. now it is an active, active decision by members of the republican party, by members of the united states senate, by members of the united states house, by republicans, men grill enabler republicans, by anybody that's voting for him to vote for someone who is for muslim registry, to vote for somebody who talks about vermin like hitler did, vote for people who said, go back to where you came from, for members of congress who aren't white and are now looking at judges who, again, i'm sorry. very american to me. and i just would never think, where did he come from. but for donald trump, it's all us versus the others. saying about this judge, oh, you know, he's not going to be fair to me. look at him. look at where he comes from. look at him. i'm sorry.

he looks like an american to me. i mean, i'm sorry. look at that. that guy looks like, i don't know, looks like one of my law professors. looks like an attorney -- >> a teacher. >> sat across the table with. looks like a businessman that i may have dealt with. but for trump, for trump, he hears the name and he goes, look at him. look at where he came from. and people are actively, actively choosing when they go in to vote for this guy to vote for a bigot, a fascist, a man who says he wants to be an authoritarian and dictator on day one. >> yeah. if this were another politician who had not used the kind of language trump had used before, you could interpret trump's comments and he phrases it carefully as saying this guy comes from new york and therefore he's a democrat and will be prejudiced against me. but because we know that donald trump has a track record, specifically of calling out judges who have come from

hispanic countries, there is an implication here when he says the words, look at him. i mean, look at -- not that there is much to see but look at him. there's an implication that's what he's doing. you're right about the otherization. when you study people who look at how rise or fall, you have to have normalization of politically violent language and you have to demonize the other, whatever the other is from your context. and i think we have seen both of those things happen. >> add a third, otherization, demonization and celebrating violence. >> celebrating violence. >> january 6th defendants, he loves to celebrate people who have broken the law and defaced our capitol and committed violence. >> but there is hypocrisy, in charlottesville when the other was the people who were walking down saying, jews will replace us, there were not very many

republicans who came out and criticized that. coming up on "morning joe," we'll have for you donald trump's comments on restricting birth control, which he had to quickly walk back. also ahead, senate democrats plan to force a vote tomorrow on the bipartisan border security bill blocked by republicans earlier this year. we'll have the latest from capitol hill. plus, a new warning about what a second trump term could mean for the future of the supreme court. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. 90 secs tamra, izzy, and emma... they respond to emails with phone calls... and they don't 'circle back', they're already there. they wear business sneakers and pad their keyboards with something that makes their clickety-clacking... clickety-clackier. but no one loves logistics as much as they do. you need tamra, izzy, and emma. they need a retirement plan. work with principal so we can help you with a retirement and benefits plan that's right for your team. let our expertise round out yours.

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former president trump said he's, quote, looking at supporting restrictions on a person's right to contraception. >> so, related to this is the whole issue of contraceptives. do you support any restrictions on a person's right to contraception? >> well, we're looking at that. i'm going to have a policy on that very shortly. and i think it's something that you'll find interesting. and i would say it's another issue that's very interesting. but, you will find it i think very smart. i think it's a smart decision. but we'll be releasing it very soon. >> well, that suggests that you may want to support some restrictions? like the morning after pill or something? >> we are also, you know, things really do have a lot to do with the states. and some states are going to have different policies than

others. but i'm coming out within a week or so with a very comprehensive policy which i'll get to you immediately. >> the biden campaign put out a statement in response that reads in part, quote, it's clear trump wants to go even further by restricting access to birth control and emergency contraceptives. it's not enough for trump that women's lives are being put at risk. he wants to rip away our freedom to access to birth control, too. a short time later, trump attempted to clean up his remarks writing in a social media post, quote, i have never and will never advocate imposing restrictions on birth control or other contraceptives. and neither will the republican party. and joe, of course, he was all over the place in his career as a democrat on abortion and yet look where we are now. >> well, of course. you could listen to a lot of things he said during his first campaign. and now he's running around

bragging about ending roe v. wade, terminating roe v. wade one day. the next day saying, oh, we're going to have a compromised 15 or 16 weeks. but elizabeth, if you look at what's happening here, he said specifically, i'm working on a plan for contraceptives. we'll have it out in the next couple of weeks. well, i think griswald v connecticut was around 1965. so he's about, you know, about 60 years late to the game. but he's still talking about another plan for contraceptives and then he's talking about let's look at the states. he tries to clean it up on truth social people say this is bad politics. this is what clarence thomas wrote about in the dobbs concurrence. we've come after abortion. we're coming after contraceptives next, marriage equality and down the line. >> well, he was clearly caught off guard. he seemed very tired in that

response. he was just kind of freelancing, just, wait, i have a great policy coming without realizing what he was actually doing was agreeing. we don't need a policy on contraception. it's legal in the united states. i think it's just an example -- he looked like a very tired candidate right there. and then the comment about, oh, it's important to leave it to the states. it's very smart. it was just kind of a mess of a response. and, once again, he was cleaning up. let's not forget, you know, 2015, 2016 he said, i believe it was to chris matthews, that women should be punished for having abortions and had to walk that back. he has been all over the map on abortion for many, many years. and just again, with donald trump, he often says what his -- what he feels his audience wants to hear which is many different things at different points. >> right. and you have a combination of his ignorance of the issues in

general. but then, as you say, elizabeth, he looked awfully tired. just completely beaten down and exhausted. perhaps that worked together to produce the answer he said then tried to flip-flop a couple hours later. but man, this would have to be frightening that a guy who doesn't even know what america's policy is on contraceptives are saying that he's going to be thinking about changing it in the next couple weeks. let's bring in right now nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali. ali, this is exactly what democrats, what women's groups, what women, what their loved ones have feared for quite some time, starting with abortion and then as clarence thomas said, they would go after the right to have contraceptives, access to contraceptives next. >> yeah. the way they wrote the dobbs decision was going to open the door to other fashions of

controlling how women can have their own say over their own reproductive healthcare. i think what's striking about both the instance that you brought up back in 2016, with chris matthews, i remember being in that green room and being with the campaign staff and they didn't seem aware of the fact that he had just made a major misstep outside of the lines of regular republican policy. i think that's again what we're seeing here on contraception, a candidate who doesn't exactly know what lines he's supposed to color within in terms of where the party policy is. that's problematic on a lot of fronts but especially when you color outside the lines on an issue where the party is already out of step with where the public needs it to be and then just kind of teasing this as something that doesn't have real life ramifications when it very much does. >> it very much does. since it's all connected, let's talk about the supreme court. former president obama adviser, dan pfeiffer, is warning about the impact a second trump term could have on the supreme court. here is what the pod save

america co-host said. >> think about the stakes of the supreme court. if donald trump wins, he will almost certainly get two more appointments. by the end of trump's second term, thomas will be 82, alito will be 78. >> they're definitely retiring. >> they're definitely retiring if trump wins again. >> could be kbj holding down the fort. >> so he will definitely get two appointments. if he gets two appointments, will have appointed five supreme court justices, all of whom will be around or below the age of 60 when he leaves office. that is a court -- maga court majority that will rule for decades. we can win the next however many presidential elections and absent something sort of extraordinary happening, trump's fingerprints will be all over the supreme court.

we know this works. in stwaex, that vacant justice scalia seat that mcconnell held open, is one reason that republicans who did not like trump at the last minute were willing to hold their nose and vote for trump because they cared about the supreme court. so i think we can do that in reverse. >> here we go, sam stein. i mean, this thought of that supreme court under a second trump term and women's rights have already been scaled back, our health is now less safe because of donald trump. and supreme court choices. imagine exactly what dan pfeiffer is imagining, moving forward. it's frightening. >> couple things here. one is, if trump is to lose this november, it will almost certainly be because of his appointees to the supreme court. by that i mean, he has himself taken credit for appointing the justices who overturned roe by the issuance of the dobbs. and that line, that individual

line more than anything else up to this point i think is the most determinative line of the election. so, i think the supreme court, dan is absolutely right is monumental issue in that sense. secondarily, dan is also right about the actuary tables. the justices are getting older. the next president likely will get to a point one or two. i think there's probably going to be an incentive for the two conservative justices to stay on if biden is re-elected. yes, this is an issue up for debate. three, the sort of larger, more morbid discussion is, is this really the way we want the supreme court to be decided? i mean, we're basically waiting for someone to croak. >> right. i know. >> and there's larger conversations to be had about reforming the court to make it you do not have this type of intense governing entity be decided by someone's health while being -- but rather you can do something that has term

limits or structure it so that every president has a certain amount of appointments. that discussion is not happening. i want to be clear. but maybe it should be happening. >> go ahead, joe. >> this is an extraordinarily important discussion that needs to continue to be had. it's i wrote a column about this in the "washington post" four years ago where i laid it out directly. there has to be court reform. you can't have, for instance, roe v. wade, roe v. wade was overturned because ruth bader ginsburg went to an event, got sick and died. history hung on that balance. the right -- 50-year right ended because of that. and it is as ghoulish spectacle of people trying to hang on to dear life until their party comes into power. james has been on our show before and talked about the expansion of the supreme court that has been thought out for

the last 20, 30 years, where each president gets two selections. and you term limit you term limit supreme court justices. i think america may be the only western power that has judges appointed for life. it's a crazy process. now, here is the reason why conservatives who -- well, faux conservatives, phony conservatives, will blow their stack over this. they'll go, oh, this is -- this is not constitutional. you're undermining -- no, we're not undermining the constitution if we do this as a country, if we try to depoliticize this process. well, we're reforming the united states supreme court, mika. george washington, obviously set it up. adams tried to do it. thomas jefferson changed a number of people on the court.

andrew jackson changed a number of people on the court. abraham lincoln changed the number of people on the court. after lincoln's death they changed the number of people on the court. this is something that happened regularly until the 20th century, fdr tried it and it didn't -- it went sideways for him. so then every president is like, whoa, not going to do that again. >> uh-huh. >> but then maybe they decided not do that for political reasons because it ended so badly for fdr. but the constitution provides for this. and i would love to see republicans and democrats in the future look at what sam's talking about. that is reform of the supreme court that expands the court, that has term limits for federal judges and gives every president two supreme court picks during her or his term. and that way it's not left to chance. that way, there is an orderly

procedure. and that way people don't get $1.5 billion to try to rig elections and transform the way the united states supreme court is run. >> yeah. no. it doesn't seem like something that's going to be solved right now, which is what makes dan pfeiffer's comments even more frightening. but it does -- >> right. >> but it would be good to address this at some point given the reality right now. ali vitali, you're here to talk about this border bill. which i guess senate democrats are planning to force a vote tomorrow. what's the point of this? >> once again highlight the issue. i mean, we watched this bill be negotiated in bipartisan fashion at the end of last year and into the early months of this year. senator lankford was the republican. senator sinema was in the room as the independent who tends to bring these parties together and of course senate chris murphy was the democrat. this had a lot of gains in it that republicans didn't think

they would get from democrats as they had these negotiations over the years. then of course when push came to legislative shove, donald trump stepped in and told party leadership, i would like to keep this as an active issue in an election year. the border is one issue he turns into when he's in trouble in the polls or politically. >> not a sitting member of congress. >> ironically enough the way we talk about him on the hill. but what schumer is doing here, and he's setting this vote up for tomorrow, is trying to say, hey, let's show that democrats are trying to legislate around this. i would add that senator lankford, himself, one of the negotiators, though republican, said he is now not going to vote for this because it has become his words, a prop as opposed to a policy. and senator cory booker is someone who also had voted for this bill initially, trying to get it at least through a procedural vote, now he has said that he did that show he was committed to bipartisanship but now he's not going to vote for this because he thinks there's problems with the underlying bill too. yeah. >> how successful do you think democrats are going to be in trying to do what they're doing here in the hill tomorrow, trying to actually capture

immigration as something that can work in their favor in we have seen border crossings down by 40% since december. mostly because of what the mexicans are doing, not because of what's happening on this side of the border. >> yes, yes. >> but could they turn this story around? it's true it's been as the border crossings are down, less outrage in the headlines? >> disappear is an issue if the mexicans carry on what their doing. maybe keep speaking to them. >> probably go back up again. but i don't know. they are trying very hard. this is a very, very serious issue for the democrats. but this gives them a big talking point. we passed this bill in the senate -- it will never become law. we passed it and the republicans were the obstructionists and it was all donald trump's fault. we shall see. it's a huge issue with voters. and they have an uphill climb on this one. and it's -- even though, you know, we keep waiting to see and doesn't seem like it's going to happen any time soon, where

biden's executive action on the border, but i think the white house has decided that should he decide to put these restrictions in place, he'll get attacked by the left part of the party. and then also there will be lawsuits instantly and look very weak. so this is i think this is one way that chuck schumer is working with the white house on this to try to make it work. >> nbc's ali vitali, thank you very much. great job on "way too early." thank you for coming on this morning. coming up, a conversation on the strength of our democracy. our next guest asks the question, is america dictator proof amid donald trump's claims he will be one? but only for a day? that's straight ahead on "morning joe." oe."

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tatum trying to get free. brown fakes, fires up the three, bang, bang! jaylen brown knocks down the three to tie the game! >> a rare double bang from mike breen there. jaylen brown's tying three-pointer in the final seconds of regulation, the boston celtics back from 13 down in the second half. and sent last night's series opener against the indiana pacers into overtime.

jason tatum scored ten of the high 36 in the extra period as the celts took advantage of 21 turnovers by the pacers to win game one of the eastern conference finals, 133-128. series remains in boston for game two tomorrow night. barnacle, you're with us now? >> yeah. >> what did you think? did you watch the game? >> yeah, i did watch the game and watched jason tatum throw the game away with a lazy pass over his shoulder and force them into overtime. that was upsetting. the pacers are not going to go away here, sam. >> no, pacers are feisty. they took the knicks down in seven. they're a good team. i was nervous. that jaylen brown three in the corner was clutch. that looked like it was going to slip away. >> yeah. but they got to get tougher. they have to get tougher. >> they do. >> and stay in the game. all right. we're moving on -- >> sam, before you move on, before you move on, we have to talk about another thing in boston really quickly, mike barnicle. by the way, the pacers aren't

going to have that many turnovers over night. the celtics have to play better or they'll have the same fate that the knicks had. but mike, the sox, i don't know now but they put two really good -- i don't just mean good, good, solid games with a young pitcher giving up two runs in the first inning. that's when it gets interesting. do they fold? or do they keep going? and the red sox were showing this because they're actually winning a game or two in a row here, but also the first series victory at the trough since -- >> 2019. >> in five years. yeah, since 2019. >> five years. how great was doran last night? >> doran has really surprised me, joe. i liked his speed. i likd his combativeness. i like the fact that he likes to play everyday. but i always suspected that he was not a great outfielder. he might still not be a great outfielder but vastly improved and that leads to why the red sox are still playing well above their heads, i think,

defensively. they have all improved. the red sox have now proven that they can play defensive baseball. >> i will say there's nothing prettier than watching doran try to take third on a ball in the gap. a livly sight. look, katty kay is desperate for baseball news, mika, too. keep on script here. >> i'm taking notes. >> so let's stay with major league baseball. we'll begin in pittsburgh. pittsburgh's pirates slugger, a rocket. the first player to record three hits with an exit velocity velocity of over 115 miles per hour in a single game. look, two of them eclipsed 120 miles per hour. these are absolute bullets. that included the game-tying double with two outs in the bottom of the ninth inning. the pirates went on to beat the san francisco giants in extras, 7-6. now to the phillies. let me keep reading the script. to philadelphia, phillies fans

seated along the wall in right center field lost a tray of nachos, devastating, how could this happen to a rangers home run ball. the eighth inning solo shot that sent the cheesy snack on to the outfield grass. look, we cover a lot of tragedy here, but that one is the worst. as for the game, phillies ace ranger suarez extended one of the greatest season opening runs in the history, striking out ten batters over seven innings of work to improve to 9-0, and lead the philadelphia phillies to its mlb best win. now, finally, i can stop talking. joe, all to you. >> you did a wonderful job. mike, let's talk about a pitcher right now, and i think he's up tonight, a couple of years ago, it was, you know, degrom night in america. now, whenever degrom could go on the mound before he got hurt in the third game, every season,

now, though, we've got this kid out of pittsburgh, paul skains. i think he's up again tonight. he went out his last outing, just absolutely cy young material. talk about this kid, how special he is. and we're expecting him to pitch tonight, right? >> i think he's on the slot for tonight. he's 6'5", 235 pounds, throws an average of 102 miles an hour most of the night. you know, he is not yet on the docket for having tommy jones surgery. let's hope he continues. but he's a big, strong, healthy kid and it is awesome watching him, watching really talented major league hitters just have no idea how they're going to get around on a high fastball that he can get in the strike zone, high in the strike zone, impossible to reach, pittsburgh needs him, baseball needs him, but he's a young pitcher. we want him to stay healthy. one of the few young pitchers,

please, god, keep paul skains healthy. >> a great kid. he throws a lot of off-speed pitches. he doesn't depend on the 102-mile-per-hour fastball. let's hope he has a few years ahead of him. and major league batters will have another day to prepare for him, because alex corrects me and says he'll be pitching tomorrow afternoon for the pirates. we have to circle back to katty kay. she's not been given an opportunity to gloat over city once again winning the premiere league. i know there was a lot of screaming in your house, especially in the first half, when it looked like things might get a little tight with west ham then expected. but at the end, another title for man city. >> i mean, history making, right? first team to do -- to have four titles since 18-something or other, as tom kept telling me ufl sunday. >> over and over again.

>> it was a good day in my household. my arsenal-loving sun, a little less happy. i'm not sure they've spoken yet since the weekend. but they've put -- harlan came through, good through, team well, strike hard. all of that nice money, as my husband keeps saying, seems to produce results. >> look at katty. >> i just want to say to my friend who watches the show regularly and e-mailed me earlier this week, saying, why don't you do more women's softball, we will, in fact, mika, be reporting on college softball for women as they get to the finals. >> i love it. >> we may do something we haven't done on and report on college baseball for men as well. but we're following women's softball and we'll be reporting on it when we get to the finals. >> good advice. still ahead, we'll speak with israeli minister for

strategic affairs, ron dermer on the heels of the international criminal court issuing arrest warrants for prime minister benjamin netanyahu and top hamas leaders. also ahead, emmy nominated actor chris melony from "law & order: organized crime" will be our guest. "morning joe" will be right back. our guest. "morning joe" will be right back smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have

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trump ended up not taking the stand to testify. he wanted to take the stand, but then he saw it was three steps without a handrail. what is this? what is this? mt. everest, i can't do it. >> that is shocking. trump is not talking? what happened? did he write himself a check for $130,000? >> it's just so peculiar that outside the courtroom, with his legal pads of notes he just talks and talks and talks, but then if you ask him to walk just a few feet inside the courtroom and to swear to tell the truth under penalty of law, suddenly he's afraid to speak? i mean, what's the difference? is it the fluorescent lighting? i mean, i hate to even come to this conclusion, but is it possible that donald trump is full of [ bleep ]? i mean? >> the fact is, he would commit perjury, is the reason why his attorneys don't want him up on the stand, as well as the fact that if he didn't commit

perjury, he would tell the truth, which would basically lay out the prosecution's case against him. so despite lying to america and saying he was going to testify on the stand and show 'em -- you know, tell 'em what the truth -- at the end he backed away. and then wouldn't even answer the question of why he wasn't going on the stand, when the press started asking that question. wanted to talk about, you know, make racist claims about the judge, bigoted claims about the judge. but when it came to actually himself and answering the question of why aren't you testifying in your own defense? he just walks away from the camera and ignores the question. >> and ignores the weeks and weeks of saying, i'll testify, i'll testify, i'll testify. katty kay, mike barnicle are still with us.

joining the conversation, we have former white house director of communications to president obama, jennifer palmieri. nbc news and msnbc political analyst, former u.s. senator, claire mccaskill and she are jen are co-hosts of the podcast, "how to win 2024." it is awesome and great to have you on this morning. also with us, senior writer for the dispatch, david drucker. and at the table, senior political columnist for politico, jay martin. he's doing well here today. >> i'm thrilled to be here, at the table! >> you've lumbered in and started screaming at us. >> okay! >> it's a high honor. >> and you found the right floor. >> i did, eventually. >> it's good to have you here, especially this morning. because this hour, i believe, what are we in? hour two? >> two. >> okay. new polling finds president joe biden and donald trump battling in every swing state, but biden

making up significant ground from just last month. in the latest bloomberg morning consult poll, trump leads in arizona, georgia, north carolina, pennsylvania, and wisconsin, while biden leads in michigan, but after the survey showed trump up by eight points in nevada last month, the new poll finds the two candidates tied. biden has also cut trump's six-point lead in georgia to three points, and his four-point lead in wisconsin to just one point, while making similar gains in arizona and north carolina, all of these results, joe, are within the margin of error. >> well, especially in the three states that really matter the most right now. of course, the upper midwest states of wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania. but, june, we're going state what everybody knows. it's may. these things are so random. as i was saying before, the

"morning joe" betting lines were open and we were giving the plus 13 after "the new york times" siena poll, the plus 13 in nevada -- >> you could have made a lot of money that day. >> we would have piled on as much money as we made, as we did from unsuspecting frenchmen thought that macron was actually going to lose to la penn. we put the over/under at 58.5. but here's, let's just talking about the randomness of these polls. because you know this better than anybody. you've talked to the campaigns. in this poll, the only state they have joe biden ahead in is the one state in the upper midwest where his campaign thinks that he faces the toughest currents, and that is michigan. that's michigan. they think they're comfortably ahead, though they would never say it in front of a camera in wisconsin. they're feeling pretty good there. and then again, nevada.

here we're talking about a 13-point lead, then a seven-point lead last month. now a dead heat. i mean, all of these states, all of these states will be so close. and nevada is justin of those states, i don't know how they do it, but it's always close and democrats always end up winning. so way too early, baby! way too early! >> but still a snapshot. >> yeah, the last time -- >> it's close! >> it's very close. i think the last time that the republican carried nevada was bush in 2004. that's two decades now. it does tilt democrat. i will say, this sort of leid leid organization out there is superb. this is their tallest task yet, trying to keep biden is going to be enormously difficult. but nevada is important, though, because it does give biden some tiny insurance policy, if he can stay competitive there. otherwise, he has to run the inside straight. michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania. he can't afford to lose a single one of those.

and that's what the ball game is, joe. it's in those three big ten states. look, i think they're all basically a toss-up right now. here's the good news for biden. he's got three governors in all of states where democrats who have a lot on the line right now, where democrats have to pull out a win, two of which want to run for president in 2028, whitmer and shapiro. they have a lot to help for themselves and for joe biden. >> and very proven ground games. i've got a lot of faith in those operations. >> the ground game is kind of like a field goal in football. if you can get the score down to about three points, the ground game really matters, right? >> yeah. >> and he's down 13 in nevada. it doesn't matter at all, right? >> correct. look, i was in nevada over the weekend, talking to the delegates at the nevada democratic party convention. a lot of frayed nerves, but a lot of confidence in the ground game, in part because the republicans right now don't have one. it's not that they have one, but

it's not as good. they don't have one. they will end up with one. i think that the concern has to be for biden campaign and directionally, when all the polls are pointing in one direction, one points, five points -- >> exactly. >> it usually means that's where things are. but on the other hand, we've seen these swing state polls fluctuate, and that's what democrats are hoping to do, is get this into a jump ball, when early voting starts, so that the edge they have in the field can make the difference and push biden over the top. >> and joe, to david's point, these are close. it shows there's work to do in the biden campaign in so many different directions. >> i'm torn. >> you're torn? >> because i love american democracy. >> me too. >> at the same time, i hate listening to democratic bedwetting every day. i want them to be scared so they'll work harder. i want them to be wetting their bed every morning, so they get up and work harder all day. >> okay. >> i don't want to tell them that they have money on --

>> exactly. get up, watch "morning joe." i'll tell you it's okay. >> yes, exactly. >> you clean yourself off, and you go out and you work hard all day. but there is an awful lot of bedwetting here, blue consider, claire, you've done this. you've done this on a very large level. >> yes, she has. >> they've got the money, they've got the ground game. they've got the non-fascist candidate. they're out working. they're outworking trump, even when trump is off, he's golfing or he's doing other loony things. and, you know, i don't want to tell people i feel good about this, but, i feel good about this. i think, i think if they work harder, they keep having more money, and they build that ground game, you look at wisconsin. probably the best party chairman in the nation in wisconsin. and then you put the governor on top of that, do the same in michigan, do the same in

pennsylvania, couple great governors there. you know what? they've got a lot going in their favor. >> yeah, and don't forget, we have senate candidates in those states, too. and they are doing remarkably well. if this is all about changing parties, somebody needs to let the folks that are responding to polls in pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan, nevada, let them know that those senate candidates support the same policies that president biden has embraced. and you know, last night, joe, i was looking really carefully, it's really interesting to see which party is going to be more extreme. because typically the party that is most extreme has the most difficulty in these states that swing back and forth. you look at what happened in oregon last night, where you had very progressive candidates from local d.a. in portland all the way two open congressional seats and the moderates won. they swept the table.

so i think that what you're seeing here is a coming home to understanding that joe biden is a decent man with loads of integrity and for those swing voters, that's going to matter. and the more donald trump talks, he is way more extreme today than he was ever in 2016 or 2020. he is saying things that he didn't even think about saying back in those elections. >> that's right! >> and the more he's out there, the more it's going to help joe biden. >> far more extreme. again, joe biden, you know, it's never going to look like beetle beetlemania when joe biden steps off a plane going to an event. joe biden is about normalcy, and by the way, if you don't think that's a winning message in '24, you're not talking to the right voters, who even if they voted for trump in '16, are exhausted now. i want to say, mika, following up on what claire said, let's compare what happened in oregon last night, which thank god they voted in some moderate d.a.s.

thank god after the chaos in oregon over the past eight years, maybe they're returning to the middle. they're already like handing out heroin and gum machines out there. it's absolute lunacy, lunacy! and so thank god the voters said, enough of that, and we want moderate d.a.s, we want a moderate approach, we actually want to hold criminals, you know, responsible for crimes. so that's important, but we can go from oregon on this extremism to north carolina. i never thought i would say this, but the extremism of the republican party in north carolina and the gubernatorial candidate, and i thi their candidate for commissioner of education, i don't know if i have that title right, are so extreme. >> yeah. >> they actually have put north

carolina into play. which i would have told you three months ago was not possible. >> right. just to counter your earlier statement, i don't feel good about this. >> there you go. work harder, everybody. she's scared. >> i don't feel good about this. this is a candidate with many members of the republican party who do not adhere to norms and have no boundaries. do not respect the law, do not respect human life, do not respect a woman's right to choose, do not respect, do not respect, do not respect. >> and that's why they're going to lose. >> i do not feel good about this. >> i hope you're right. we want to show you very contrasting messages from two former presidents on the topic of dictatorships. take a look. >> we will not be intimidated by the threats of dictators, that they will regard as a breach of

international law or as an act of war, our aid to the democracies which dare to resist their aggression. they will not wait for an act of war often our part. they did not wait for norway or belgium or the netherlands to commit an act of war. >> you're promising america tonight, you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody? >> except for day one. >> except for -- >> look, he's going for it. >> meaning? >> i want to close the border and i want to drill, drill, drill. >> that's not -- >> no, no. >> that's not retribution. i got it. >> i'm going to be -- you know, he keeps -- we love this guy. he says, you're not going to be a dictator are you? i say, no, no, no, other than

day one. >> okay, so what you saw first was 1941, former president franklin delano roosevelt standing up to dictators during world war ii and then donald trump just last year vowing to be a dictator himself, for a day, if he returns to -- >> it's a long day. >> it has been a long day. joining us next year, u.s. editor for "the economist," john purdo. with a cover story entitled "is america dictator proof?" john, what's the answer? >> sorry, mika, i feel like i'm not going to cheer you up after those rather gloomy poll numbers that you were getting you down earlier. there's a couple of ways to look at this. there's one way to look at donald trump and this whole debate, which frankly he started when he made those remarks, i think it was last year about being a dictator on day one.

and we all go around in circles trying to figure out, look at what he was actually did when he was in office last time around, look at some of the things he said, there were good debates about what he would really do. but another way to look at that question is to depersonalize it and take trump out of the picture and say, if america were to elect somebody who were both maligned and competent, and i have real questions over whether donald trump is competent enough to pull this off, but were that to happen, how strong are the checks and balances? and there, there's mixed news, i've got to say. i mean, there is some really substantial checks on presidential authority. if you look at how dictatorships have functioned elsewhere, often a military coup is involved. that's impossible network, i think. america's military is one of the strongest institutions in the country with deeply embedded democratic norms. but it's also the case that you look at some of the formal

checks on the presidency, and one of the things we've learned since 2016 is that they just don't work. you know, impeachment is one of the biggest checks written into the constitution, as a restraint on tyranny. and we've had ample proof over the past few years that that just doesn't work. and if you look down the list, there are a whole bunch of emergency powers that the president has, which somebody who is really determined, i think could exercise to subvert important democratic norms in quite a worrying way. so i'm not saying that trump is going to do this, but somebody could. >> but, john, in terms of restraints upon the presidency, or restraints upon a candidate running for president, who happened to have sat in the layoffs for four years, what would the restraints have done for someone who for instance, just yesterday, more than suggested that the department of

justice under president biden had authorized use of lethal force to maybe take a shot at donald trump. maybe try and assassination attempt on donald trump. what do duo about a candidate like that. what kind of restraints would work against someone clearly not within the bound of any restraint? >> well, so then you have to look back at what he did when he was in office. and again, this was a question that journalists like me tied ourselves up in knots trying to figure out. you look back at some of the memoirs of people who served in his cabinet, mark esper writes in his memoir about donald trump asking if it was possible for him to give an order for him to shoot protesters in the leg in 2020. and he was told, no, no, you can't do that. and then we get into a question of, well, how serious was that? you know, is that a thing he really would have done, or is it like the remarks you guys were talking about earlier on contraception, where he says a thing, and it's not quite clear,

you know, how serious he is. so in terms of restraints in a case like that, i think those norms around the american military are hugely important. i spoke to a bunch of people who served in pretty senior positions in the trump administration, and they pointed out to me, one of them said, the d.o.d. is not in a rush to operate against american citizens. those kind of checks are really important. but the striking thing, if you look through the constitution, and look through the law, it's a lot of those things that aren't written down, enormous around doj dependence, norms of how the military would behave in times of crisis, those are things that are real guarantees, rather than the stuff that's written down. if you ask most americans what they're taught in the civics class, it would be, well, the constitution is the guarantee. and that might be a bit too comforting. >> john, i think one of the things that trump taught all of us is that democracy is partly laws and partly norms and traditions. and if you have a candidate that's willing to ignore those

norms and conditions, democracy gets put under threat. one of the things that people talk about and the trump campaign talks about openly wanting to do is under this provision of schedule "f" it's called, taking a whole group of civil servants who are not political and making them effectively political appointees, which could change america's democracy, not just for this president, the next presidency, but presumably for years and years and years to come. do you think we hear that the trump campaign is sort of more organized and more efficient and has more of a plan? do you think it is up to the task of doing something like that and how much of a threat would that be to democracy? >> it's definitely more organized than was the case prior to 2016. i mean, i'm sure you've spoken to lots of the people i've spoken to, katty and maga-aligned think tanks and their plans are quite well developed. that said, the federal bureaucracy is a huge beast. and you talk to people who have served in the white house, served in the administration, getting it to do anything is

quite tough. and there are 25,000 odd lawyers in the federal government and so, a trump administration could come in well organized with a really good -- well, not good but a thorough, determined plan and it would struggle to get all of these things done. i don't think the federal bureaucracy -- i don't think you can wave a wand and make this stuff. that said, you can undermine some really important norms. and you can do a lot of stuff, right? so i guess it depends. you need to sort of calibrate your degree of alarmism. if you look way back, i think george washington had a staff of four when he was -- when he was president. the federal bureaucracy has obviously grown a huge amount over the course of the 20th century. it was interesting, both clips of fdr, that we were watching a little earlier, mika. i mean, fdr did serve three terms, right? which is something that donald trump would sort of teasing us about the other day. but that -- the existence of

that federal bureaucracy now, which isn't written into the constitution, is a pretty important check, i think. and i don't think you can sweep it away on day one. >> no, no, not day one. it is fascinating. george washington only had four people working for him. and of course, two of those were employed just to separate jefferson and hamilton. so he really was working effectively with two people. u.s. editor for "the economist," john prideaux, thank you so much. i'm so glad that john brought up george washington, because i was going to come you and say, since 1789, the united states has depended on the goodwill of the sitting president of the united states to make the constitution work. and we learned in the negative with donald trump, if you don't have that, you don't have the constitution -- >> i mean, richard nixon. people talk about richard nixon,

there is no comparison on nixon and trump. nixon lost in '60. he may have complained about im. his people may have thought for good reason that illinois wasn't counted the way it should have been counted, but he said, i'm not going to put the country through that, he conceded. when the supreme court came came back unanimously and said, you have to turn over the tapes, nixon knew his presidency was over. why? because he played within the constitutional guardrails. and the goodwill that we expected of presidents. not so with donald trump. so what do we do moving forward? >> yeah, well, and let's not forget bush/gore. >> oh, my gosh, yes. >> our country was on a knife's edge and the supreme court spoke and there were a whole lot of people, especially people who were very familiar with the law

who were very unhappy with the supreme court decision, and what did al gore do? he did what was best for the country. we do not have that guy in donald trump. he is not going to do what is best for the country. and what worries me the most about this, what worries me the most is that bright line dividing our military from our politics. and if you all remember, donald trump sent over some of his idiot minions to the department of defense at the very end of his administration, and frankly that was part of the reason that we had the big mess up where the national guard was not called out quickly enough when we had -- we had his rioters trying to stab out the eyes of police officers with flagpoles. and i worry that our military is going to be weaponized in a way that would be so damaging to our country. he's talking about using the military in a domestic way. that is not what our founders

wanted. our founders did not want the military -- the federal military, to be used to abuse the rule of law in this country, that has been so clear about how the rule of law is supposed to work in america. and that's why i've said a number of times, i think the military leaders who know what donald trump is capable of, who have retired, have really a strong obligation to speak out against donald trump between now and november. >> that's the real -- >> look, there's a remedy to all of this. it's called the united states congress. it's not called the supreme branch for nothing, but it has to stop acting like a quasi-parliament that supports its party, each party, when its president is in power, and use the jealous of its own authority and use it. and that's how you put a check on a president who doesn't want to observe particular norms or laws and keep democracy humming. >> so bring it right back to

reality, as opposed to the future that we're looking at here, with very good information to pull from, we have the defense resting in his criminal trial, possibly a verdict, but in the next one or two or three weeks, maybe longer. how will you be watching how he uses that, whatever the verdict will be, donald trump will use it in some way. >> i think their hope is that it's a mistrial, because then he can say, see, even in liberal new york, they didn't even think that i was guilty. and he'll just use that to say that he was a martyr and that, you know, it was all a sort of kangaroo court. and then, i think he's confident with some reason that he's not going to face trial, mika, the rest of the year. >> right. >> in any of these other cases. they're going to use that, to borrow a phrase, as his get out of jail free card. >> i think politically, what's interesting, these indictments, more serious than the ones he's dealing with now with this trial, have been hanging over donald trump for a year plus now

and it hasn't hurt his standing with voters and there are voters in some of these swing states -- >> it's theoretical. >> but everything is theoretical. i've talked to political operatives on both sides of the aisle and they tell me that people in a way are desensitized. they're so used to trump. and there's been like a memory hole of what they didn't like about him when he was president. and when you have such visceral issues, like inflation and everything that goes along with that, motivating voters to figure out who to vote for and what to do, this is one of the reasons why trump is in a position after being twice impeached, indicted, where he can be re-elected. >> the retrospective approval rate of trump is extraordinarily high. >> it's unbelievable. >> it's what jars the biden campaign, the fact that looking back, they don't recall the handling of covid or the collapse of the economy, they just remember lower gas prices.

that's the biden's challenge. to remind them of everything else. >> joe, jump in. >> i want to say, mika, let's go back to the shot of j. mark and drucker. america needs this. the "morning joe" family of viewers needs this. we need you guys once a week. >> i would mess up your hair, but it's effort. >> we'll even come up -- yeah, you can't comb your hair. this is like a -- we want you two -- go to that shot of the two. we need this every week. j. mart and drucker. >> we're going to -- and cnn, you can't g listening right now. do not steal them. we're going to even -- we're going to produce this thing out, and i bet we can even get a sponsor for it.

j. mart and drucker! >> rudy coffee. >> we'll put rudy coffee right in the middle. >> i can't be bought, but i can be rented. >> yes, you can! >> i can be bought. >> all the great points you guys just made, i'm going to talk to jen palmieri about in terms of how the biden campaign deals with this. there's so much to deal with, and that's half the problem. "the dispatch's" david drucker, former senator claire mccas kyl, thank you all very much. we'll be listening to your podcast with jen, how to win 2024. and still ahead on "morning joe," the top lawmakers in the house and senate are mulling an invitation to israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu to address a joint session of congress. we'll talk to israel's minister of strategic affairs about that amid mounting criticism over the country's military operation in gaza. you're watch "morning joe." we'll be right back you're watch "morning joe.

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. do you support the idea of calling prime minister benjamin netanyahu, having addressed in a joint meeting of congress? >> yes, look, i'm discussing that now with the speaker of the house and as i've always said, our relationship with israel is ironclad and transcends any one prime minister or president. >> that's senate majority leader chuck schumer when asked about

whether he's in talks with house speaker mike johnson to invite israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu to address a joint session of congress. with us now, israel's minister of strategic affairs, and an observer of israel's war cabinet, ron dermer. he previously served as israeli's ambassador to the united states. ron and i have been friends for several years and talk on the phone often, usually about anti-semitism and the fight against anti-semitism. and -- >> good to be with you again. >> i probably did you no favors at home by saying that. obviously, we've had some real disagreements with the netanyahu government, with the execution of this war, and we're going to get to all of that. i don't want people to think that we're not going to get to that, but there are a couple of things i want to get to first. and that is, first of all, the chart -- and again, i will say, and you know, i've been extraordinarily critical of benjamin netanyahu, but i want to address these charges by the international court against him,

and just the rank double standard in bringing these charges against any israeli prime minister. i'll open the floor to you there. >> well, look, thank you for that, joe. it's obviously outrageous. i think a lot of people that you bring charges against the hamas leaders, a terror organization that perpetrated this terrible attack and bring charges against israel's prime minister and defense minister, so everyone understands that's absurd. but beyond that, the actual charges themselves false. the main charge that the icc has is that israel has a policy of trying to starve the population in gaza. in the war cabinet, we've never had such a policy. we've put in half a million tons of food into gaza, over 20,000 food trucks and 30,000 trucks, we've paved roads to get humanitarian assistance in. have there problems within gaza of how you distribute humanitarian assistance, of course? we're dealing with hamas sthaels

that's stealing the aid, but israel has never had a policy of starving the people of gaza, and that's why this is so absurd. the other charge they had, for your viewers, is israel has a willful target of trying to target civilians, and that's also completely false. you have colonel john spencer from the urban war institute of west point, general david petraeus saying, no country has ever gone to such great lengths to get civilians out of harm's way. of course, civilians were killed, it's a tragedy of warfare. we had friendly fire that's killed a dozen of our on troops. three of our substantia hostage to escape, and our troops saw them as an enemy, and unfortunately killed them. there is no policy to kill innocents. we do everything to keep innocents out of harm's way. that's why this is outrageous. if i could say 30 seconds more, it's dangerous -- >> hold on one second. let me ask you some questions, and then respond to the questions. let me just -- first of all, we

need to talk about egypt closing the border, which they for some reason, they closed the border. we also need to talk about egypt undermining the peace talks. the egyptians have been allies of the united states and have been very helpful to israel. i want you to get to that in a second. but i want to -- going to this issue, there are a lot of people who believe that israel has committed war crimes. a lot of people who think that what israel has done in gaza has been extraordinary and never happened before, while we've been very critical of some of the bombing in gaza. the fact is, civilian deaths, if you just look at percentages versus enemy combatants, higher in our attack in mosul. you can look at what the united states did in iraq. the good war. you can look what we did, the firebombing of one german city after another. the firebombing of tokyo, nuking two japanese countries -- cities, and doing so, again, to

end that war and to save what many people believed at time would be a million jobs, japanese lives. i mean, there are a lot of criticisms that i have of israel and the way they've conducted this war, but if you compare what israel's done in gaza, which, again, is ugly. war is ugly. you even compare it to what the united states has done, and god forbid, we compare it to the butcher of damascus, assad, or the million muslims that saddam hussein was responsible for killing. the half a million arabs that assad was responsible for killing. we've said it all along, there seems to be, the only thing that differentiates this is that it's actually jews that are defending their homeland. and that is an international crime, compared to all of these other countries, including the

united states. >> i think that's right. and i thank you for saying it. if you look at the percentages of combatants to non-kpat accountants in israel's war in gaza, it's about one to one. every civilian who was killed is a tragedy of warfare, but there are really specific rules of war. you have to draw distinctions between combatants and non-combatants, you can't use disproportionate force or proportionality and you have to give warnings. and i think israel has gone to greater lengths than any other than i'm familiar with, speaking of an enemy warfare that embeds itself in schools and -- >> and i'm sorry to interrupt you, i want to say, and i'll let you continue talking, but i want skeptical viewers who heard what you say to go back and watch what we said on this show, a show that has been critical of israel but what we said on this show right after october 7th.

hamas did. they were going to use civilians of shields, and when a jew dies, that's good for hamas. when a palestinian dies, they consider that great for hamas. it was part of the calculation of october 7th. go ahead. >> that's exactly right. for us, it's a tragedy. and for them, it's a strategy, when they use civilians as human shields. and that's what they've done, and we have done our best to try to kick the civilians out of harm's way. but if you actually look at the numbers, you're quite right. what you did in your war, sometimes it's three to one, i think sometimes the u.n. standard is nine to one. it's about one to one. around 14,000 terrorists have been killed and a similar number of civilians. you have to understand, also, that the numbers that are coming out ever are from hamas' ministry of health. they've said 35,000 people were killed. the u.n. repeated those numbers and just a couple of weeks ago, you may have covered it on your show. >> we did. >> frankly, i don't have the

time to watch "morning joe" as much as i did in the past when i was israel's ambassador to the united states. but they said that we now have 10,000 people who were killed that we can't identify. we don't know if they're women, if they're children, what it is. that's after a lot of people saying, you know, 75% of the casualties are women and children. so i would ask people to wait, to suspend judgment, to wait for all the facts to come out and they'll see a very different story. this civilian issue is not true. the willful starvation of the population is not true. >> ron, ron -- i'll get to egypt in a second. let's stay -- this is a very important point, again, for critics of israel and they have every right to be critics of israel. it is very important to remember, again, that these numbers have come from hamas. the media, in the west, has taken it on. certainly in the arab world, has taken it on, and acted as if hamas' numbers, which were propaganda, were actually fact. and even -- and i say, even the

u.n., because i want to get this in, ron. you can comment on it, it goes to how we should be very skeptical of what international organizations ever say about israel. i checked this out. last year, human rights council, the united nations, there were 15 resolutions condemning israel. there were seven resolutions condemning the rest of the world. that would include china with their concentration camps, russia with their invasions, north korea, on and on. now, you're saying, oh, this is because of the war. no, in 2022, the united nations condemned israel more. in 2022, than the rest of the world. this is why you should be skeptical of whatever the united nations or other international organizations, say about israel, even if like us, you have real,

grave concerns about some of the things that have been happening in israel and in gaza. go ahead, ron. >> yeah, it's a good point that you made about the u.n. human rights council. maybe a trivia question, you should ask one of your questions to find out, when was the last year, because every single year, there are more resolutions in the human rights council against israel than there are in the entire world combined. you just talked about the last two years. i don't remember the last year that there were fewer in israel than the entire world combined. when it comes to the statistics, let me give you one example. you remember the case, it was on the eve of president biden's historic visit to israel when he became the first president to come to israel during a time of war. and i told counterparts at the white house, you know, you do a disservice to the president, because his visit was not just in a time of war, it was early in the war when we could have actually had another front and president biden's visit at that time could have prevented another front in the northern part of israel from opening up. not only did he come on air force one, he sent the aircraft

carriers and the battle groups to deter hezbollah and to deter iran. on the eve of his visit, there was an attack, a missile landed, it turned out to be next to a hospital. the first reports were the missile hit the hospital, within several hours of the times had a headline that said at least 500 people had been killed. at least 500 people. within several hours, they knew exactly how many bodies there were in that household. turns out, several hours later, it had nothing to do with israel. it was an islamic jihad rocket that had been fired at israel. it fell short, hit the parking lot next to the hospital. and then the most remarkable thing happened, joe. for the first time in 2000 years, people were resurrected in the land of israel, because the numbers of dead went from 500 to 50 or 60. guess what? those u.n. statistics, still out that 500. and they kept going up. be skeptical of these numbers, like you said. there's always room for legitimate criticism of any democracy. we're not beyond criticism, but the liablist charges against israel, you saw some of those

against the icc, are totally false. >> ron, let me ask you a couple of questions that i've been trying to get answers on since october the 7th. and everybody keeps trying to push it off. they just won't tell us the truth. and i hope you'll be able to. three weeks -- >> joe, can we go back to egypt for one second? just one second? >> i'll tell you, what we're running out of time. talk about egypt. give me just a couple of minutes on why egypt -- >> because you're the first -- >> -- undermined these peace talks. >> you're the first host to actually level any kind of criticism of egypt that i've heard. one of the reasons why we have a problem in gaza is that egypt did not open its gates to allow people in gaza to go into egypt. what happened during the ukraine war, refugees went out? what happened in the war in syria, refugees went out. egypt made a decision early to block it and to not allow people out. and hamas is obviously responsible for the civilians killed in gaza because they used them as human shields. but look at egypt, why did you not open your doors?

why did you not allow palestinian refugees to temporarily going into your territory to get them out of harm's way. right now, egypt is withholding 2,000 trucks of humanitarian assistance from going into gaza because they have a political issue about the rafah crossing. i'm glad you pointed that out. the issue of the negotiations over the hostages a separate issue, but it's very important for egypt to do the right thing on humanitarian assistance and protecting civilians. >> and i will say, in the weeks following october 7th, we said that they needed to open that border, they had to guarantee -- israel needed to guarantee the right to return for palestinians and refugees need to be protected. egypt would have no part of that. let me ask you. i've been trying to figure this out. we've all been trying to figure this out for some time. hamas obviously a terror organization that hates jews that wants to kill jews, that wants to wipe israel off the face of the earth. you know that, i know, we've all

know that for a long time. why did benjamin netanyahu, why did he authorize continued pamss from qatar to hamas? and i think qatar has given hamas maybe $1 billion through the years. why did benjamin netanyahu, just three weeks before the attack said, yes, of course, qatar, we want you to keep funding this terrorist organization that says they want to kill jews? >> this was a policy, unfortunately, that was going on for many years. i don't think it was the right policy and i don't think that we should repeat that mistake. but you're quite right, $15 to $20 million a month that qatar was providing, sometimes more, sometimes less for hamas, and allowed iran to poor money into hamas and all of that money iran was providing hamas was going to build its. military machine, but qatari money was flowing in, and a lot of people took the approach before october 7th, let's keep the money going into gaza, and for somehow, this will keep the situation calm if gaza. it didn't work out.

it's a lot -- by the way, it's a lot about what's happening right now with iran. people think, let's give billions of dollars of sanctions relief to iran and somehow we'll keep a lid on the situation. >> but this was benjamin netanyahu who knows, who knows -- >> but it's not -- >> -- that hamas is a terrorist organization. >> that's correct, but it's not just benjamin netanyahu. i've been in the security cabinet. this is issue that goes back many years. most of the senior security officials in israel all supported that policy. ultimately, the prime minister -- >> why? >> -- we all have responsibility for the policy, because they thought that would keep gaza quiet. that's why also you had a policy of enabling palestinian workers to go into israel. we had around 20,000 on october 7th -- until october 7th, who were coming in and working in israel and a lot of people thought, you know, hamas is deterred, because there have been rounds of conflict with hamas. they got beaten down. we never launched the full war into gaza, but on one hand you had the stick of israeli military action, these rounds of

fighting. you remember 2009, 2014, 2021, 2023. and on the other hand, the carrot of allowing workers from gaza to work there. and a lot of people thought, hamas is interested. yes, we know there's a terrorist organization. they want to murder all the jews, destroy the state of israel, but right now they're focused on consolidating their power. and all of the professionals within israel thought that the policy was the right policy. >> but didn't the government -- didn't the government have the attack plans from hamas a year earlier and weren't there warnings inside of -- so those reports are false? >> no, what happened is, after the war, look, we're going to have an investigation of exactly what happened. what we're talking about after october 7th, people find things that hey, this person thought there was an attack plan. this person gave a warning. but that's a needle in the haystack after the fact. i'm telling you, i was sitting in the israeli cabinet for 11 months or 10 months before

october 7th. we didn't know of any attack plan. we knew that hamas has the will to attack israel, we knew that they were constantly trying to build up the capabilities, but we certainly didn't know there was a plan, because we would have launched a war to thwart it. had israel launch the war on october 6th, people would say, why did you do that? hamas was deterred, there was no need to have this kind of war, which we knew was going to force israel to pay a heavy price in terms of our own soldiers, but a huge price on palestinian civilians. that's why we didn't do a war before october 7th, going back many, price on palestinian civilians. that's why we didn't do a war on october 7th going back many years. >> a couple quick questions. one. have there been any investigations in israel to explain why it took the netanyahu government so long to rescue women that were being raped and children who were

seeing their parents shot dead and elderly people being brutalized, and why did it take them 12 hours to save these people? >> you are talking about the hours after october 7th where people in the southern part of the country, after 3,000 terrorists ran in. the scenarios that i think israeli security officials and leaders were thinking about at the time was a scenario where you could have a dozen hamas people go in and try to kidnap somebody and do a terror attack, and this was an invasion of a terrorists army of 3,000 people, and they overwhelmed the israeli troops there. i can tell you that there were many brave soldiers and police officers that saved a lot of israeli lives because they got there. it's the scale of the attack

going through 50 or 60 different points and 3,000 terrorists streaming into the country, that, israel was not prepared for on october 7th and that's why there will be a full investigation on what happened and how it happened and what to do to prevent something like this from happening in the future. >> ron, what do you say this morning to the families of hostages, some of them americans, who want desperately for their loved ones to come home? what is the netanyahu government doing? what is the israeli government doing to bring the hostages home? >> fortunately, we were able to get about 80 israelis, and foreign workers in the deal from four months ago. we have not been able to get a second hostage deal. we have been working on it for several months and the united states and other people in the region to get a deal. around three weeks ago hamas put

a proposal forward and they signed their own proposal and instead of the deal that was on the table that the united states said was a generous offer, and israel will work and do whatever it can to bring the hostages home. the troops brought four hostages that were killed on october 7th but was kept in gaza, we brought them back and gave some level of comfort to their families, despite the fact that their family members died. we want to bring as many hostages alive as quickly as possible back to israel, and we are committed to doing it, and it's one of the aspects of the war. >> we have had several people, david ignatius, farid saw carra,

coming on the show, and the resolution has been a hope of the united states, and what stands in the way are illegal settlements in the west bank. "the new york times" this past weekend had a huge story in the magazine about the extremism on the west bank. joe biden asked the netanyahu to curb the extremist attacks on the west bank against palestinians there. are there any efforts by the netanyahu government to curb the extremist attacks against palestinians on the west bank? >> of course. we are a country of law and you can't take laws into your own hands. the problem is people have taken a marginal phenomenon in israel and put it out there to be accepted in the mainstream and

it's not. we have taken action -- >> ron, with all due respect, this is netanyahu letting the payments for years standing in the way of a two-state solution. >> first of all, i don't think the settlements you are talking about, it's not something unique to netanyahu, and it's a disagreement we have had with the united states for the last century. we reached peace with egypt. remember, in gaza where we face the horrors of october 7th, we left unilaterally in 2005 hoping it would advance peace and it did the opposite. i don't agree with the premise that any territory handed over to the palestinians have to be

free of jews. any settlement on peace, my view is very different. i think once we have a palestinian neighbor willing to be living with jews among them, they will be willing to live with jews aside them. there should be jews and palestinians living together. you have to have a palestinian authority capable of living with jews alongside them. unfortunately, we have not had that. one of the worst numbers of the horrific attack on october 7th, it's that 80% of the palestinians in the west bank, they supported that attack. 80%. you cannot make peace with a people who are poison to that extent. i am hopeful that because of the

impending military victory we will have in gaza you can have a deradicalization process linked to the future. you did it in germany and japan. you achieved a military victory and took former enemies and made them some of your strongest allies in germany and japan. the good news in israel, in the gulf we have the saudis who are partners with us in the gulf and who are deradicalizing, making great efforts to deradicalize. >> of course, i agree with that. i also understand, though, that it's my opinion and the opinion of many others that followed this closely that the netanyahu government has worked overtime undermining the palestinian authority that helped spread the

radicalism, and that doesn't help, and it was not only the worse slaughter of jews since the holocaust, but those celebrating that, absolutely sickening. i know you have to go, but this can be done, if you look back 25 years ago -- now 26 years ago, what bill clinton did and tony blair did, and you had the queen of england shaking the hands of martin mcguiness, a man that blew up and killed her uncle. this can be done, but there has to be willing partners on the palestinian side and israel's side so you can move towards the two-state solution. >> you have a willing partner in israel. every time we were faced with an arab partner that was willing to make peace, we made peace, and that was true of sadat, and it's

true, prime minister netanyahu, don't forget, he made peace with four arab states, and not ancient history, four years ago, the peace plan that was -- >> is the saudi deal next? do you think a saudi deal is in the works? >> definitely. definitely. i don't know if we will be able to put it together and stitch it in in the next few weeks because of the political calendar you have in the united states, but i believe strongly we will get a saudi-israeli normalization, and there are two issues and i think it's hard for them to move forward when there's heavy fighting going on in tkpwaurz, and -- in gaza. i think we will be in a different situation. the other thing, how can we work together to find a formula that will work regarding the

palestinians, and it's possible to stitch that together. the palestinians should have the powers to govern themselves and now we have to work out the language, and the saudis would like to do it and we would like to do it and we have to find the right moment to do it. i think there will be a historic change in the region, not just jews and arabs, but muslims. there would be a peace with israel. this is a game changer. one of the reasons why october 7th happen was perhaps to scuttle the deal. we don't have intelligence that hamas was trying to scuttle it, but i have seen a lot. everybody was celebrating that a deal between israel and saudi arabia is scuttled. we would like to have a military defeat of hamas and another defeat for the terror axis by reaching an agreement between

israel and saudi arabia. >> thank you for coming on and look forward to talking to you soon. >> thank you. katty kay, at the end there, the netanyahu government has said, and netanyahu said in the past, that in effect a two-state solution was dead. that's not what ron was saying there, and he said peace was possible and interesting enough, he becomes the first israeli official, at least that i have talked to that, that admits they funded hamas and the funding was a tragic mistake. >> so a couple things that i took away from that was the repeated use of the idea of investigations to look at that kind of funding and look at your questions about why it took so

long to get to the settlements on october 7th. there's a history in israel in some of the investigations taking a long time and not leading to much or being buried, and it would be encouraging for the families of the hostages in particularly to learn those investigations would happen a lot sooner. we are already into may and this happened last october, so i get the war, the understanding of that. the egyptian intelligence forces undermined the latest cease-fire by adding conditions or having conversations after something had been agreed, and i don't have reporting on that on. the government, the israeli government is under a huge amount of pressure at home to

have a cease-fire or deal, at least, to bring the hostages back. so it's interesting that they are pinning the blame for that on somebody else. on the bigger, strategic alliance between the saudis dependent on the two-state solution that both americans and the saudis have said, when the ambassador said we can have a world where they are living side by side with peace and respect, and i don't know how the people of gaza are now -- all their ancestors and the people that follow them, knowing their mother, father or brother may have been killed, whether they are going to be able to contemplate a life in which they live side by side peacefully with the israelis, and that didn't happen in 2011, it took

generations for those palestinians to move onf they have. >> we will continue this conversation for sure. our third continues with this hour from this scene outside the courthouse yesterday at former president trump's criminal trial. >> though don't want donald trump holding rallies. what happens at rallies? this is five weeks sitting in a courtroom, and who shows up? tens of thousands of people show up at donald trump's rallies and the democrats hate it. there's not another person on the planet that can do that other than the pope. the pope. >> republican congressman of texas with a totally -- totally normal comparison for the former president, the pope. here we go. we will have a recap of what happened yesterday in donald trump's criminal hush-money trial in a moment. plus, trump's comments about birth control that he quickly had to walk back.

also ahead, a former senior adviser to president biden lays out an alarming supreme court scenario for democrats if donald trump were to win in november. we will play for you that warning, and that's another one, elizabeth, that we will get. welcome to "morning joe." it's may 22nd. with us, u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay, and elizabeth miller, and deputy managing editor of politics at politico, sam stein is with us. we will start with the criminal trial where the trial officially finished, and the defense called two witnesses and yesterday rested their case. former president trump did not testify in his own defense despite telling the press multiple times that he wanted

to. >> would you like to testify in your trial -- >> i would testify, absolutely. it's a scam. it's a scam. >> why didn't you testify? >> it won't stop me from testifying. >> do you plan to testify in court? >> probably so. i would like to. i mean, i think so. >> it's the story of his life. nobody is shocked. this is a guy that said, of course, i'm going to testify, yeah, and you knew he was not going to testify because, one, he's a walking perjury machine. you say you have a new ice cream machine that makes ice cream creamy, and he's a ninja perjury machine. >> i will never look at the creamy the same way. >> it creates instant perjury. he knew he was not going to

testify. again, i wonder who is stupid enough to believe him, right? i wonder why his voters that keep going back to this guy when he -- because it's not just about -- it's about everything. oh, you know what, i have a plan for abortion that everybody is going to love, and i am going to talk about it, and he comes back and goes, states rights. he goes, i have a plan for health care and it's two weeks away. of course, those two weeks turn into two more weeks, and he has no plan for health care and he has no plan for anything positive for america. what about contraceptions? i have a plan for that. we will take it back to the states. again, we have to take it back to the states which means that clarence thomas was right, first they were coming for abortion,

and then contraceptions and marriage equality and that's what he believes in his heart. then he gets back, and for a guy that believes anything, that's one thing he believes, that states should be able to take away women's rights to have abortions and contraceptives, and then they say, you are dumb, donald, you need to change your opinion -- you idiot. that's what they were saying to him. i am surprised they talk to him that way, but they do, i guess, and then he changes his mind, and they say those are democrats saying that, and no it's not. just like he said he was going to testify when the whole world knew he was lying about testifying because he would purger himself on the stand and he was afraid of what he would have to admit about the encounter with a porn star and

payoff through michael cohen. >> okay -- >> that's all i have to say, mika. >> thank you. thank you very much. he's awake. okay. i was worried when i talked to him on the phone this morning that he was a little sleepy. >> he had his ice cream. >> yeah. okay. you done good. >> you know, mika, actually, and it's funny because i called elizabeth yesterday as well, and it's not just me but it's everybody in the times washington bureau, and when they are tired, they drink rudy's drip coffee. that's what is keeping us awake. >> has anybody tried the coffee? >> rudy says it's good. >> no, nobody has tried the coffee. >> i'm interested. >> sam. >> it's the hair dye and sweat that mixed in and gives it the extra flavor, and then you put

it in the ninja, and it's fluffy. >> gross. >> i am just sticking -- >> oh, what do you think is in that mug right there. >> oh, my god. this is not real, is it? it is, that's the problem. >> unfortunately, this is our world, 2024. >> okay. center. center. when asked why he didn't take the stand because the defense rested in the hush-money trial, former president trump refused to answer. >> why did you decide against testifying in the case? do you not want to take the stand? >> so the trial is now on break for the memorial day holiday and will resume next tuesday, may 28th, for closing arguments. judge juan merchan confirmed there will be court next wednesday making that the first possible day for jury deliberations.

let's bring in former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor, chuck rosenberg. chuck, your thoughts on donald trump's inability or refusal to participate in this, probably his team got him to not testify, because i don't think they would have liked that. what about this big gap now? what happens scheduling wise for this trial where we might be waiting for a verdict, what is the timeline? >> let me start with the first thing first, mika, if i may? good morning. it's a smart decision by mr. trump, so don't often use smart decision and mr. trump in the same sentence, but it would be rare for a criminal defense to testify, and i saw that happen two or three times and it never went well for the defendant when

he or she took the stand. putting mr. trump's noise aside, it actually was a smart strategic decision not to testify. prosecutors were ready. i think he would have been shredded. i think resting without calling mr. trump was a good legal decision. what happens now? well, right now both sides are working with the judge to fashion jury instructions. that will be the judge's legal roadmap for the jury when they begin their deliberations. jurors are the judge of the facts but the judge supplies the law to help deliberations. next week both sides will have the opportunity to close and argue and sum up the trial and then the case goes to the jury and we await the verdict. >> why do the instructions

matter so much to both sides? >> that's a great question, and there's not an obvious answer unless you are a lawyer and have sat through this thing. i hated this part of the trial. once the defense rested i felt like i was done, but i wasn't. here's an example and just an example. imagine the government wants to prove that mr. trump caused the entry of false records, and they want to prove that the ledgers and the documents were false and that mr. trump caused them to be false. a discussion perhaps only a lawyer could love, if you wanted me to cause me to drop this, you could knock it out of my hand and you would directly causing me to drop this. you could get joe to knock it out of my hand and you would be using a proxy to drop it, and

you could sneak up behind me and cause me to drop it, you were indirectly causing me to drop it. the government wants a broad definition of cause, and not just that he made the entries directly himself but caused somebody else to do it. on the other hand, the defense wants a narrow definition of cause, because liability of defense from their perspective ought to be narrow, and liability from the prosecution's perspective ought to be broader. getting the judge to give the right definition of cause, you scared me and i dropped it, you got somebody else to knock it out, and that will be up to the definition. >> please, please, please, mika. please, nobody knock that out of chuck's hands. there's actually rudy coffee inside of it. it burns through table tops and your lower intestines like acid.

let's keep that there. there it is, made with special ingredients that let's just say are banned in 27 states. chuck, i want to about the time you said you would wait, and i had a narrowly defined specialty in the law firm where i worked and that was windows, they thought i cleaned windows very well and that's what i did most of the day. i would watch actually the seasoned attorneys and they would sit and wait for the jury, and they hated it. they hated it because you never knew what was going to happen, right? >> that's right. >> they would say, 90% of the time it's right, and you lose some you should never win and you win some you should never lose. that's how people on tv is

predicting a jury will come back despite, you know, where they are, whether they are in new york or northwest florida. nobody knows, because they do, they take their jobs seriously. once they get behind the doors, it just takes on its own life, doesn't it? >> absolutely, joe. i can say with confidence that i felt my case went in well and i introduced the evidence i wanted to introduce and obtained the answers from the witnesses that i wanted to obtain, but it would be crazy, foolish for me to tell you that i knew what a jury was going to do. i think the reason i hated that part so much is maybe as prosecutors, we are a bit of control freaks and this is the thing we absolutely cannot control. once the case is submitted to the jury, it's theirs and theirs alone. all can you do is sit and wait. i will never tell you that i know what a jury is going to do. i will tell you that i think the government's case here went in

well, well enough to sustain a conviction. whether or not that happens, i have absolutely no idea. >> could i ask a question? >> okay. elizabeth, go for it. >> i have heard repeatedly how good the government's case is. what would you guess would be -- if trump is acquitted, why would the jury do that? what evidence would they hang that acquittal on? >> elizabeth, remember, in order to acquit, they also have to be unanimous, right? an acquittal, or a conviction requires a 12-0 verdict. anything in between them would be a mistrial hung jury. in my experience, when a jury acquits, and that's a unanimous verdict, it's typically -- not always, but typically because they have some question about whether or not the government met its proof, and that's proof beyond a reasonable doubt, a

significant burden. can this jury acquit? absolutely. will this jury acquit? i have no idea, but an acquittal is never a vote by a jury that somebody is innocent. they are not asked that question. it's guilty or not guilty. often when there's an acquittal, the press touts it as a finding of innocence. that's not the finding, but it would typically, elizabeth, be predicated on a belief by a unanimous jury that the government failed to meet its burden of proof. next up, the attack on the judge overseeing trump's criminal hush-money. that's next on "morning joe." we're back in a moment. how did i ever miss this? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta? you'll never truly forget migraine,

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find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu. though he is not testifying, donald trump is still talking a lot. yesterday he leashed a new line of attack upon judge juan merchan upon leaving the courthouse, he accused the judge of have r hating him and having bias against him because of where he comes from. >> the judge, take a look at him, take a look at where he comes from. he can't stand donald trump. he's doing everything in his power -- >> sam, what is he talking about? >> this is typical trump, right?

this is the same version of the line he did in the 2016 campaign where he said the trump against him in the -- the judge was against him in the trump university trial. where he comes from could be, and i think deliberately phrased to be interpreted however the viewer wants, but we know what the implication was. that statement in its own right would have been a shock to the system six or seven years ago. and it was. i remember how we felt when it first happened. it's become normalized because we have been so inundated with trump. on the macro scale, we had a 15-minute conversation about a potential presumptive gop nominee that might have a guilty verdict in hush-money payments for a porn star, and we don't

step back and say what we are living through is a tense and tumultuous and surreal life, and interesting, the degree to which it's not breaking through, and by that i mean the polls don't move, and trump's base doesn't move. we have lawmakers willingly going -- >> there's an acceptance happening. >> yeah, exactly. an acceptance to it and it's becoming baked into our political psyche. >> joe? >> well, elizabeth, far more than just concerning or nerve-racking, this did shock people in 2016 when he was talking about the judge from new mexico, but here's a judge now that says look at him, look at

him, see where he's from. i will tell you this is what separates donald trump -- i will speak for myself, from me and most americans. i look at him and go, madison avenue, upper east side. donald trump speaks in code because he wants people to see the judge as another. everybody is another unless their immigrant parents were from scotland and germany. you have people -- i will just go back to it, what does jon meacham call it, the clubhouse, the clubhouse folks that are totally fine with the -- >> the grill. >> yeah, the men's club grill at country clubs who are perfectly comfortable voting for a guy that talks about vermin, a nazi

term, and uses the slogan for go back to where you came from for sitting members of congress that don't happen to be white. yesterday, just take a look at him. seriously? what is this, 1933? it is -- it still needs to be shocking to us today. >> but -- but -- you know, trump also said we need more people coming from norway and the scandinavian countries, and that's how there as well. this has been going on since 2016, 2015, and the population has become used to it. can you imagine if another politician said something like this, we would be talking about it for days. coming up, we will talk about donald trump back tracking after saying he's open to putting more restrictions on

birth control. "morning joe" is coming back.

let's talk about the supreme court. a former obama adviser is warning about how a second potential term could have an affect on the supreme court. >> take about the stakes of the supreme court. if donald trump wins he will almost certainly get two more appointments, and by his second term, thomas will be 82 and alito will be 78. >> they are definitely retiring. >> and justice sotomayor will be 72, and he will appoint five supreme court justices all of who will be around or the age of 60 when he leaves office. that's a maga court majority

that will rule for decades. we can win the next however many presidential elections, and absent something sort of extraordinary happening, trump's fingerprints will be all over the supreme court. i think we should make this a big issue. we know it works because in 2016, that vacant justice scalia seat mcconnell held open, and you heard this, that republicans that did not like trump at the last minute were able to hold their nose and trump for vote because they cared about the supreme court and i think we can do that in reverse. >> the thought of that supreme court under a second term and women's rights have already been scaled back. our health is now less safe because of donald trump and supreme court choices. imagine exactly what dan

pfeiffer is imagining moving forward. frightening. >> if trump is to lose this november, it most almost certainly would be because of the appointees to the supreme court. that line, that individual line, more than anything else up to this point i think is the most determinative line of the election. that's a monumental issue in that sense. dan is also right about the actuary tables. the justices are getting older and the next president will likely be able to appoint one or two. i think there will probably be an incentive for two justices to say on if biden is elected. yes, this is an issue up for debate. and three, the larger and more morbid discussion is, is this really the way we want the

supreme court to be decided. we are basically waiting for somebody to croak. there are larger conversations to be had about reforming the court to make it so you don't have this type of intense governing entity be decided by somebody's health, but rather you can do something that has term limits so every president gets a certain amount of appointments, and that discussion is not being had, let me be clear, but maybe it should be. >> go ahead, joe. >> this is an extraordinarily important conversation that has to be had. there has to be court reform. like roe v. wade, that was overturned because ruth bader ginsburg went to an event and

got sick and died. history hung on that balance. the 50-year rite ended because of that. james has been on our show before and talked about the expansion of the supreme court that has been thought-out for the last 20 or 30 years, where each president gets two selections, and you term limit -- you term limit supreme court justices. i think america may be the only western power that has judges appointed for life. it's a crazy process. coming up, emmy nominated law and order's kris meloni. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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been so stranger to death, and covering the most violent conflicts in the world, he withdrew soldiers and some of his own colleagues and has seen them die in the line of duty, but now he's recounting his own close encounter with death during a medical emergency in 2020. in his new book entitled "in my time of death:how i came face-to-face with the idea of the after life." >> a lot of times there were people on the other side of the line trying to kill you, but this time it was personal.

what happened? >> i almost have been killed in front line situations, which is weirdly impersonal as you say. what happened to me is i had an abdominal hemorrhage, and i had a weak spot that ruptured and a problem that had been in my abdomen my whole life and it decided to rupture, and i was turn into a human hourglass, and by the time i got to the hospital by ambulance, i was a few minutes from dead. they managed to save me. i was conscious the whole time. i'm an atheist, and i don't believe in an after life and don't have mystical thoughts. >> you saw your father? >> my father appeared above me to welcome me, and he said you can come with me and i will take

care of you. and i was like, you are dead, and we have nothing to talk about, and i said to the doctor, hurry, i'm leaving, you are losing me. >> what was different in terms of you facing death? you were in afghanistan and you faced death on a daily basis, and this was personal and you are in the hospital, and the nurse after the surgery tells you we thought you were going to die. >> yeah, i was blown up in an ied and bullets flying above my head, and a lot of stuff, and that was elective, and i am a reporter and will go to the war zone, and i gave that up after a colleague was killed in libya, and i had a family, two young

daughters, and it didn't occur to me the front lines can come to you, right? in mid sentence, i had a pain. >> you said you were an atheist, did you find that god knocked on your door? >> i don't believe in god, but some people do. my father was a physicists, and he taught me to think in rational ways. what it made me think is that with or without a god -- that's a separate conversation, there may be some kind of post death existence that we don't understand. there's interesting theories about how it might work. sometimes people ask, are you

spiritual now, and that's a term about physics that we don't understand. >> do you wake up and think i'm glad to be here? >> what i would say is that i don't go to church, but the worship that i conduct in a sense in my own life is in the present moment and with the people i love on the earth and appreciate it, and that's a church you can attend on your own and it's effective. >> it's my church, too. how i came face-to-face with the idea of an afterlife. it's on sale right now on amazon and every place else. thank you very much for this. >> thank you. the latest on the singapore airlines flight when we come

back, a flight that when landed with such severe turbulence, a passenger died and 20 others remain in intensive care. nbc's tom costello has new details and why everybody on the plane was scared. there's no problem with understanding that. we're back in a moment. help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley (music) have heart failure with unresolved symptoms? it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms, like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat could be something more serious called attr-cm,

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we're learning more about the severe turbulence that hit a singapore airlines jet yesterday. one passenger died and dozens were injured on the flight from london to singapore. 20 remain in intensive care right now. tom costello has the latest and why such incidents are happening more often. >> reporter: breaking this morning after the dramatic turbulence onboard the flight, the ceo is speaking out. >> we are deeply saddened by the

incident. >> the extreme turbulence injured dozens of passengers and flight attendants, some critically. one hospital treated 70 passengers, roughly one-third of those aboard. 73-year-old kitchen died. an airport official said the passenger suffered from a heart condition. four americans were also onboard, a family on its way to a rotary convention. flight radar data shows the plane pushed up suddenly and then down, like a violent wave at 37,000 feet. then a controlled emergency decent to 31,000 feet and an emergency landing. firefighters rushed in removing victims on backboards. inside the plane, evidence of a

terrifying flight, bloodstains on the ceiling. andrew davies was a passenger -- >> so-called clear air turbulence is difficult to predict, and climate change already made wind shear much stronger. >> if you imagine the air flow over the wing, this wing will be pushed up violently and innocently, and the airplane will tilt to the left. >> the pilots radio turbulence to the cockpit. >> we have seen people have broken limbs because somebody else has fallen on them, and we tell people to protect yourself and keep that seat belt fastened even when the sign is not on. >> the takeaway is that this is

happening more and the reason for it is invisible to radar. >> i am worried about all the flights coming -- i'm thinking i have so many flights coming up over the course of the summer, and climate change is going to keep getting worse. >> it's extraordinary the repercussions of climate change you wouldn't think of, and now it affects the airlines. coming up right now, the so-called she economy is booming. women-owned 2023 with fertility care and wealth and wellness industries leading the way. in fact, the women presidents association a nonprofit for women business leaders just released its 2024 list of the 50 fastest growing women-owned and led companies. fertility startup kindbody took the top spot, followed by symbiotika a health and wellness

company. the fertility companies and the companies that help with benefits for fertility, they're booming because women are realizing they have a long runway and they can make these choices along the way and businesses want to retain great female employees and that's the way to do it. here to tell us more maggie mcgrath. you've been covering this for forbes, we're covering it on know your value. what were the big take a ways from this list of women owned and led companies. the average honoree i want to say, 50 over 50 list, was 54 years old. >> yes, that's right, mika. these 50 companies employ more than 18,000 people, have a selective $7 billion in revenue and are led by ceos who have an average age of 54. now, this should not surprise us. we know from the women of the 50 over 50 that age and experience

are advantages in running and growing sustainable businesses. i spoke with the ceo of women's president organization camille burns and she said that one of the interesting trends, other than the fact that, yes, you pointed out health and wellness, direct to consumer companies, those are sector-based trends she saw on this list, one of the other interesting trends is that experience is driving this growth. oftentimes camille told me ceos of small businesses and startups are afraid to invest in resources that feel too expensive for the company's budget, but it's when they spend that money on the senior executive or the piece of technology that felt too expensive, that's when they see the company's growth. mika, i think that's such an important lesson not just for founders and ceos but for all women. >> absolutely. >> you have to invest in resources in order to grow. >> you spoke with the kind body founder and executive chairman who is also honored on forbes and know your value 50 over 50 list last year. what did gina who is known as

the og fertility founder have to say about the growing business opportunity in family building? >> i asked gina about the challenges of running a fertility company in america in 2024 when we have state by state differences in reproductive health laws that could affect the way her customers access care and the way her company operates. she said that the political landscape has not been a hindrance to her business. customer demand continues to grow and is, in fact, the largest driver for her business' growth. globally we see one in six adults struggling with fertility and in the u.s. those numbers are slightly larger and we see the numbers for her own company, she recorded $180 million in revenue last year, said she's on track for $250 million and she thinks it could be a multibillion dollar business. she was very careful to note that ivf and fertility planning should not be partisan issues. >> right. speaking of 50 over 50 founders, the nominations deadline for our

fourth annual -- i'm so proud to say -- u.s. list, 50 over 50 list, is fast approaching. it is may 30th. so eight days away. maggie, how is it going? what do our viewers need to know about nominating a woman who has proven success has no age limit? you know what i always say, you don't need to wait for somebody to nominate you, you can just do it yourself. nominate yourself. >> there is no deadline for success and innovation but there is a deadline for nominations, it is may 30th. we've read fabulous stories of resilience and gutsy business decisions. we want to see more of these. we are looking for founders and leaders across all sectors and i especially want to see more founders and leaders in stem fields, traditionally mael-dominated fields. i wanted to ask a commonly asked question we've been getting. this list does not include posthumous figures. we've been touched by some of these stories but we are looking for women born in or before 1973 and are actively making a

difference on this planet today. so if that describes you or someone you know, please, please tell us all about it. >> maggie mcgrath, thank you very much. talk about yourself, ladies. to read more about the fastest growing women-owned companies head over to knowyourvalue.com. daniella has a great piece about this. we spoke to several of the founders and got their best advice for aspiring entrepreneurs. for all the details and guidelines about the 50 over 50 list go to forbes.com or knowyourvalue.com to get your nominations in today. katty and susan page is here for the next hour. we did have women lying up about their age. >> i love that. >> we're like, sorry, you're 49 1/2 that's a no can do. sorry. >> that's great. >> it was fun to say no. >> i know somebody i want to nominate. >> please. >> just as i was listening i thought -- don't you think? it's a great reminder because there are so many amazing women. >> i love it. we're going to get ready for the next hour. still ahead, louisiana

lawmakers vote to reclassify two abortion pills as controlled substances. we will dig into the effects this new legislation could have on women both in the state and across the country. and we will speak with someone who knows louisiana pretty well, former new orleans mayor now national co-chair for the biden/harris reelection campaign mitch landrieu joins the table in washington. "morning joe" will be right back. washington. "morning joe" wille bright back (bell ringing) someone needs to customize and save hundreds with liberty mutual! (inaudible sounds) (elevator doors opening) wait, there's an elevator? only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪

people couldn't see my potential. so i had to show them. i've run this place for 20 years, but i still need to prove that i'm more than what you see on paper. today i'm the ceo of my own company. it's the way my mind works. i have a very mechanical brain. why are we not rethinking this? i am more... i'm more than who i am on paper.

confederate monuments statues were like, you should take that down.

really, that's got to come down. that's got to come down. >> unified yike. that's not a dog whistle, that's a whistle made of dog, evidently maga now stands for make america germany around 1938. yeah, that's kind of what it is. that was late night's take on a video former president donald trump shared on his truth social account that referred to a unified reich as being among possible developments if he were to win reelection in november. although the trump campaign later tried to distance itself by saying it was not an official campaign video, and also blaming a staffer for reposting it, it remained up on trump's social media account for 19 hours before being taken down. it's worth noting that trump has previously said that the only people permitted to post on his accounts are himself and senior advisor dan scavino who worked

at his golf club in breyer cliff. >> who i guess is a staffer. >> both president biden and vice president kamala harris reacted to the video. >> what's next for america? >> is this on his official account? wow. a unified reich? that's hitler's language. that's not america's. he cares about holding on to power. i care about you. >> in this moment -- in this moment extremists are trying to divide our nation and we see them as they encourage xenophobia and hate. just yesterday the former president of the united states who praises dictators, who said there were very fine people on both sides in charlottesville -- let's not forget -- took to social media and highlighted language from nazi germany. highlighted language from nazi

germany. this kind of rhetoric is unsurprising coming from the former president and it is appalling and we've got to tell him who we are. >> mike barnicle and katty kay are still with us. joining us we have washington bureau chief at "usa today" susan page and co-host of msnbc's the weekend simone town send and also mitch landrieu. we will start with you, we heard the president and vice president responding. i know that -- i know that it's a fine balance to respond to everything that comes from trump world our way and for the biden campaign to do so, oh, well, it must be a huge challenge, but to me it seems like something like this is worth noting. they're going to say, oh, you're just getting triggered, oh, it was just a mistake, we took it

down. and yet we now have a track record of this former president and how a lot of what he says happens. >> well, some very wise person once said that when somebody tells you who they are, you should -- you should believe them. and of course one of the reasons this is important to highlight is because this is part of a large pattern that has been with us since donald trump unfortunately has been with us. this election is going to be about a choice, it's going to be about a guy who gets up every day fighting for the american people, who believes we're better together, that diversity is a strength, wants to build an economy from the bottom up and middle out and is actually doing that and getting the work done or someone who believes that america ought to be left to a few people and everyone else should stand on the side and his rich friends should benefit. this statement that the ex-president made, as i said, is part of a pattern. he was in favor of keeping up the confederate monuments, he talked about back in the day

when somebody sent to him about david duke he didn't really know. he talked about in charlottesville there being both sides to that issue. this is a tip of the hat to white supremacy and white nationalism which is unfortunately a very important part of the ex-president's base, which goes to show you what he's going to do if he gets elected again. he has already told you he's going to be a dictator for a day. he wants to make sure that he could order seal team 6 to shoot political opponents. donald trump can't hide behind it. nobody messes with his social media posts. >> i think people become so overwhelmed they tune out, susan page. the white supremacy, stand back, stand by, january 6th hostages, you know, the list goes on. celebrating violence, celebrating what happened, laughing at what happened to paul pelosi. the list is so long. you could spend the entire day going through the list of things that could be frightening about a second trump term. then there's this whole set of

americans out there who are not just exhausted by it, but they don't kind of remember trump's presidency the way it happened. >> in a way the impact of these comments gets less the more often they are said, but, mitch, you've worked in campaigns and as you know sometimes things happen in campaigns that you don't intend to happen, mistakes happen. >> always. >> people screw up. do you think it's possible that this is an example of that or do you think there was a deliberate decision to use the words, to spotlight the words "unified reich" which has such resonance with nazi germany? >> i don't know if it was unintentional or intentional, it just continues to happen everywhere donald trump goes. everywhere he goes he creates chaos, creates the worst of the worst and they continue to have this constant thread that actually sends the clear message that he says i am going to be for certain kinds of people and not others. when he says something like

people are vermin or blood is poison. >> who says reich? simone? >> reich is not in my vocabulary. >> it's not on your bingo card, it's not in your vocabulary. do you think the biden campaign is responding in kind effectively? are people hearing it? >> well, with their campaign chairman sitting right next to me, i think that the response yesterday was absolutely warranted to your point and, good, there are people out there that will say, oh, the biden campaign talks too much about donald trump, i think that those people are not paying attention. i think the rest of us talk about donald trump, the biden campaign does not talk about donald trump a lot. i think they have picked and chosen when to highlight him. i would say that he has said so many things and is doing so many destructive things that more is warranted. he spoke to the nra this past weekend and lots of attention was paid rightfully so to his comments about the current president, president biden and the electric chair. but there was a lot more that he

said and did and so it's kind of like where donald trump is concerned for the american people, it's a hear no evil, see no evil for lack of a better term. because he is out of sight, out of mind for the american people they have forgot what he has done. there's a balance because this election for people across the country is about the future. you talk about housing and the work on infrastructure that has been done and what that means for folks and what you will do if given another term that's what people want to hear. you have to talk a tightrope. >> let's move to louisiana, the house approved a bill yesterday, this is why mitch is here, that classifies two drugs used to induce abortion as controlled dangerous substances. meanwhile, former president trump said in an interview that he is, quote, looking at supporting restrictions on a person's right to contraception. nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson has the latest. >> reporter: a new front line

this morning in the battle over abortion access. >> and bill is finally passed. >> reporter: louisiana lawmakers moving forward with a plan to put two abortion drugs in the same category as so-called controlled dangerous substances like depressants and stimulants. criminalizing the possession of mifepristone and mifepristone for in inn without a prescription. >> if overutilized the drug can be harmful. >> reporter: the bill's author says his sister was given the drug without her con sneent the goal is not to prevent women from getting the access to pills when they need them, it is to simply say when you are a bad actor in possession of these pills that you should be held accountable. >> reporter: but critics question how the state could enforce the proposal and warn it may have a chilling effect. >> let me tell you something, 50th in maternal outcomes is not pro-life. >> reporter: 280 louisiana doctors in a letter say

reclassifying the drugs is not scientifically based and creates confusion and misinformation, considering the drugs are also used after miscarriages and to induce labor. >> there are only a very small percentage of the time are they utilized for abortion care. >> reporter: louisiana already has one of the most restrictive laws in the country, banning both medication and surgical abortions with no exceptions for rape or incest, only for the life of the mother. since the overturning of roe v. wade more than a dozen states put in place stricter abortion laws, raising the political stakes on reproductive rights heading into november. former donald trump first opening the door on restrictions to birth control. >> do you support any restrictions on a person's right to contraception. >> i'm going to have a policy on that very shortly, i think it's something that you will find interesting. >> reporter: but hours later backing off, making clear on his social media platform he does not support a ban on birth

control and will never advocate for one. >> all right. nbc's hallie jackson with that report. great panel to talk about this and it's not crazy. i will say it, i just told my friends here that i saw plan b at a drugstore in florida and bought ten because i figure at some point they're going to be outlawed. at the rate we're going. am i crazy? >> is the risk that we go from banning abortion bills to banning the morning after pill. when the roe v. wade ruling came down there was a line in the ruling that hinted at what we are seeing now, that there would -- justices on the supreme court who would like to take a look at contraception. all forms of contraception, including the plan b that you have -- you know, that you -- >> hoarded. >> just wondering what they were making of the drugstore where you bought a lot of plan b. >> it was a scene at cvs. >> i can see where you're doing it. we have doctors in mexico shipping morning after pills to women in the united states because they are legal in mexico. >> i have a lot of young women in my life. >> they are trying to help out

women in the united states. mitch, how much push back do you think this gets politically in louisiana? louisiana obviously a red state. how much is it galvanizing people do you think in louisiana? >> a lot. it proves the case that president biden has made that he trusts the women of america to make decisions about their reproductive health to them and donald trump wants to return it to the states which by the way is the same legal argument they used to let slavery hang around for a long period of time. because it's going back to the states as a consequence of donald trump appointing three supreme court justices, states like idaho, states like ohio, states like florida, states like texas and now louisiana have gotten as restrictive as they possibly can. they're making it harder for women. these pills are not just to treat abortion but to treat miscarriages. you know the case in ohio where they passed a law that actually allowed -- since they're monitoring pregnant women -- for police to search their toilets.

donald trump is the reason the states are now doing this. >> it's hard to imagine it's a political plus even in a socially conservative solidly red state like louisiana to go after means of contraception. >> i think that's true but you also saw this with ivf in florida. as soon as people started saying what it meant to leave it to the states people started going, oh, we didn't mean that is correct it's not pro-life or it's pro choice. the bottom line is who has the responsibility of taking the choice. the president trusts women, donald trump trusts legislators and sheriff's deputies more than women about their own radio productive health. i think the american people are on the side of the president and vice president's views here. >> this is where biden should -- >> hammer it home. >> yes. >> it seems to me this is one of the reasons why you all pushed so hard for the debates and box donald trump in, i think, quite masterfully into agreeing at least right now to play by joe biden's rules and i think we will see at least one debate, i know everybody has said yes to

two but i don't trust donald trump to show up. because it's issues like these that he will have to speak about on the debate stage. i see what his post on the social site said, but i also heard what he said on the stage. >> abortion has been a powerful political issue for democrats ever since roe v. wade was overturned and yet we see in yet another set of swing state polls that donald trump is ahead. why is that? >> he's -- actually, the polls are moving in our direction fairly quickly and the only one that matters is the one on election day. i do think it's because people have selective amnesia. that's what campaigns are about, we are going to remind everybody about all the things donald trump said and did. >> four years ago. >> what it was like when joe biden took over when hundreds of thousands of people were dying, the economy was crashing, americans were standing in food lines, there was an active insurrection in play. people will remember that and when american citizens start thinking about this campaign, they're worried about their families getting back to school to work and mosque, they are going to know that donald trump was really bad for america and joe biden has been good.

>> mike barnicle has a question for you. >> hi, mike. >> mitch, this question of what the louisiana legislature did yesterday criminalizing abortion bills it raises the issue of the millions of families in this country with children living on the margins and the idea that the louisiana legislature, largely republican, obviously, and the republican party in general seems opposed at every turn, child tax credit bills and everything like that, from helping the living children today and the families of the living children today, giving more emphasis on the unborn than they do to people living on the margins, poor people living on the margins. what do you do with that in a campaign? >> well, i think you talk about it in a very aggressive way, for example, in louisiana one of the first things that a newly elected governor did was reject money that the biden administration wanted to send so that kids to have lunch at schools during the summer. the other thing they did was restricted somebody's ability to

get benefits when they were unemployed. this idea through the entire pro-life movement that they want to talk about life in the womb but they don't want to talk about life after a kid. this has been present the entire time and that hypocrisy not being able to create that consistent ethic of life is just right there in the center and i think people in the country are going to see that. on top of that, i just think women in america and most people in america are going to see what the states are doing now because donald trump permitted them to do that and say that is not who we are as americans. >> they're going to see it play out in realtime. women suffering, dealing with just impossible decisions. us having -- having the greatest health care in the world and not being able to give it to the women who need it. that's what we're going to be, ridiculous. that's where we are and we're going to watch women going through this now. >> here is the point that the president has made, if the supreme court didn't think that women had power, i think women in america are going to show folks what their power really looks like because it is clearly

at risk and it's at ris income realtime and they're seeing their rights being taken away. this is the first time in 50 years that a fundamental right has been taken away. when donald trump said make america again he said i want to take you back, i want to take you back to germany and the third reich, back to the civil war with the lost cause, back to where women did not have rights. i don't think we're going to go there. >> national co-chair for president biden's reelection campaign mitch landrieu, symone sanders town send thank you as well. tell be watching "the weekend" saturday and sunday mornings beginning at 8:00 a.m. eastern right here on msnbc. coming up on "morning joe," the united nations suspended food distribution in southern gaza due to a lack of supplies and no safe way to deliver aid. we'll get the latest from the region as humanitarian operation right side on the verge of collapse. plus, iran's supreme leader

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try liquid labs rapid hydration. it's packed with all five essential electrolytes. taste amazing and way less sugar than sports drinks? rehydrate and feel better with liquid labs. grab liquid labs in the walmart vitamin aisle today. 22 past the hour. now to the latest in gaza and the worsening humanitarian crisis there. the united nations has suspended food distribution in the southern city of rafah due to a lack of supplies and no reliable way to deliver the aid. nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez has the latest. >> reporter: with no sign israel's military offensive in rafah is slowing, the u.n. overnight suspending food distribution in southern gaza, saying it's short on supplies and it's just too dangerous. while in the north the pentagon also updating on that floating pier built by the u.s. military, saying that so far none of the aid delivered through it has reached hungry residents. it comes after the prosecutor of

the international criminal court accused prime minister benjamin netanyahu of deliberately starving the people of gaza. an allegation he denied to msnbc's stephanie ruhle. >> we've enabled air drops, maritime routes, we're building a port. the whole thing of a deliberate starvation policy is ridiculous. >> reporter: israel pushing back by a dramatic move by three of the allies who say they're recognizing an independent palestinian state. ireland, norway and spain saying peace can only come through a two-state solution. israel's foreign ministry calling the move a gift to hamas and iran and recalling its ambassadors. as tension increase aboard israel seizing equipment from the associated press only to back down after pressure from the white house. the israeli government said ap footage of gaza was being used by al jazeera which is now banned in israel.

three years ago in the last gaza war israel bombed an office building used by both the ap and al jazeera, saying hamas was operating out of it. >> that was nbc's raf sanchez reporting. meanwhile, iran's supreme leader presided over a funeral for the country's late president, foreign minister and the others killed in that helicopter crash. the funeral procession began yesterday in northwest iran and has now traveled to the capital, leading to scenes of both mourning and reports of cautious celebrations as well. joining us now senior fellow at the carnegie endowment for international peace kareem sajapor and executive director of the mccain institute evelyn farkas is with us. katty kay has the first question. >> it seems like iran at this

juncture could go one of two ways after raisi's death, it could become more militaristic, more authoritarian or a regime unpopular at home could start to see its demise. >> the late great dr. brzezinski, mika's father, he said 20 years ago that the clerics are part of iran's past not its future and i think raisi's death accelerates that future in iran and i think essentially what we will see in the coming years in iran, if indeed the regime survives, it's going to be dominated by military men, by the revolutionary guards, but it's a big if whether or not this regime can survive given the profound popular discontent inside iran. >> rev listen, thinking about another very difficult part of the world, the situation we see in israel, we've heard the biden administration get increasingly frustrated with israel, with our allies in israel, increasingly

willing to speak up about squandering the good feeling they had and the world support they had in the aftermath of the terrible october 7th attacks. given this current situation, including the action of the international criminal court, what can the biden administration do, what should they do to try to move this along in the right direction? >> yeah, i mean, susan, we need robust diplomacy. so the biden administration obviously is trying, but i think the more pressure needs to be exerted on hamas, more public pressure. i do agree that clearly the israeli government is having a pr problem, which is largely they have contributed to, the fact that humanitarian assistance is not getting through is -- is not entirely their responsibility, but largely, again, they've made it really difficult, they haven't opened up the corridors, sydney mccain from the world food program has said that there is a famine in gaza, some of the israeli spokespeople have disputed that. it doesn't look good to dispute

it, just bring the food in? >> right. >> so i think that's a problem for israel, but we need to make sure that the arabs, all of our allies in the middle east and the europeans frankly who are taking these unilateral actions right now to recognize a palestinian state that they actually help us with the diplomacy, that they put pressure on the arab states to put pressure on hamas and remind everyone what hamas is and what the role of iran is in all of this. >> kareem, do you agree? >> yes. you know, i think there's two kinds of countries in the middle east. >> right. >> there's builders and destroyers. i call them falcons and vultures. countries like saudi arabia, uae, you know, a lot of parts of israel they're trying to build soaring cities, societies, companies, and then you have iran and its axis of resistance and they are in the business of destroying, not building, and capitalizing on power vacuums and civil wars and the misery of others. unfortunately in this world this

building probably took 1,000 people to build ten years, you can destroy it in a couple days. so destroying is much easier than building and for the united states we really have to be on the side of the builders. >> so i want to move now to the issue of ukraine. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy continues to call for stronger supportive measures from the west in his country's fight against russia's invasion. speaking to "the new york times," zelenskyy once again pointed to the importance of fortifying ukraine's air defenses and beyond saying that his country wants to launch american-made weapons into russia to strike at military targets. as russia strikes against ukraine on a daily basis, ukraine's inability to counter with the same approach gives russia a huge advantage in the war. zelle ski also asked why nato countries could not shoot down missiles launched into ukraine. he cited iran's unprecedented attack on israel last month in

which the u.s. worked with israel and other allies to eliminate the inbound missiles and drones. like why can't there be a way to protect ukraine that is similar to what israel has? >> he's posing a really valid question, mika. i think the reason the administration has decided not to take direct action to shoot down missiles and, mind you, these are missiles, not the pilots in the planes, not the russians themselves, over ukrainian territory, because our administration is afraid they have been cowed by the threats that vladimir putin and his officials have made about using nuclear force. right now they're demonstrating using nuclear tactical weapons. i frankly think the likelihood of the russians using a nuclear weapon even a demonstration weapon is less than 50%. of course you can't rule it out so if you're sitting in the white house you have to be cautious, but there's no reason why the ukrainians can't use the weapons that we gave them to

attack valid military targets inside of russia. theres no reason. we really shouldn't give the russians that kind of sanctuary. we've given ukraine the weapons to stop the military aggression against ukraine. there shouldn't be a red line we draw there. >> are we with ukraine or halfway? >> that was the question president zelenskyy was asking is what is holding you back? there is a feeling in ukraine of incredible frustration that this package took so long. >> took so long. >> took so long because of our own politics and also what is our end goal? we know what ukraine's end goal is in this war. what is the united states' image of how this can end in a way that's satisfactory? >> i'm going to say really quickly that vladimir putin cannot prevail. his foreign policy needs to be defeated. you guys have said this a million times here, i want to add that right now while we're talking about ukraine, republic of georgia and, mika, i'm sure your brothers are watching this

really carefully -- republic of georgia, their government has decided to turn them away from the european union just like the puppet government in ukraine did in 2014 and the georgian people are on the streets demonstrating. we don't know what's going to happen but i think everyone needs to understand putin has made a move there. so it's not just about ukraine. if he wins in ukraine he's going to ratchet up the pressure but he's also not waiting. he thinks we're on our back foot now. >> where is this all going? even talk about the iran/russia relationship. >> yes, i mean, i wonder if there's an opportunity here for the united states to work with china because china is a country which they're commonly lumped together with russia but in my view they have very different interests. russia is a country like iran which benefits from instability, the disruption of free trade, disruption of the production of oil because oil prices did high and they make much more money. those two things are -- to

chinese interests. china doesn't benefit from certain instability in the middle east, disruption of free trade and oil. so i wonder if there's kind of more of a geopolitical overlap between america and china than russia and china. >> takes some agility. >> a lot of agility. senior fellow at the carnegie endowment for international peace, kareem sagapor, thank you and executive director of the mccain institute, evelyn farkas. thank you as well. great to see you. coming up, our next guest argues there needs to be a new way to measure the prosperity of americans. we will explain what the concept life is ahead on "morning joe" and what you're looking at, live pictures, fleet week has started in new york city. we will be right back.

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the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education or the joy of their play. it does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages, the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. it measures neither our whitmore our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning. neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country. it measures everything in short except that which makes life worthwhile, and it can tell us everything about america except why we are proud that we are americans. that was robert f. kennedy during a presidential campaign

speech in 1968. rejecting the use of gross national product to measure america's economic health. joining us now editor at large news week cnbc founder and contributor tom rodgers, his latest piece co-authored with his son robert rodgers who is a physician scientist is entitled "step aside, gd, it's time for lif or lifestyle improvement factor." tom, what is this concept? >> well, my son came up with this concept. he is a physician scientist, but he has an economics degree from harvard and we talk a lot about both health care and the health of the economy. what we've lost here along the way, even though bobby kennedy was talking about a lot of non-material things in life that gdp doesn't measure, we've lost the connection between economic growth and lifestyle

improvement. things that really make life more enjoyable. and so we came up with this notion of lifetime improvement factor, a way of measuring what makes life worthwhile. there are a lot of things that people spend money on that really are maintenance expenses in life that you have to spend on rent, on tuition, on medical expenses, on child care, on home insurance, on car insurance. a bunch of things that generate economic activity from consumer spending, but they really are not things that enhance one's lifestyle. so what we're trying to do is isolate those things that enhance people's lifestyle, where they feel their life has been improved in terms of being able to have fun and enjoyment. travel, vacations, being at live sports, concerts. the kind of things that you

would say, wow, if i could spend more on that, i'm enjoying life more. now, obviously that doesn't measure a bunch of non-material things that none of these economic measures like gdp or the consumer price index or personal income index capture, but we think it's time to really figure out how we can meaningfully assess if people feel that their life has improved. >> so, tom, in this -- and i'm not going to use the word polarized to describe america today because it's overused. so let's say in this unsettled country right now today, a country seemingly with amnesia, they can't remember january 6 and what happened on january 6, a country that has the attention span a little shorter than just the snap of my fingers, how do we go about getting that done in this unsettled country, convincing people, you know, you don't need that extra coat that you just bought today, instead

do something more worthwhile that will make you happier, how do we go about doing that? >> well, it's really something that i think both democrats and republicans could find interesting for their own purposes. democrats of course always think that these aggregate measures don't really get at whether lower income and middle income people, how they're prospering. we see today in polls that most people think the economy is not in good shape, which is hard to understand because we have gdp growth and low unemployment and the stock market is doing well and wage growth is doing decently and yet people think their own personal financial situation is better than that. >> how do you explain that, though? upwards of 70% of the people in this country when asked how are you doing economically, how are you doing, they say i'm doing okay. how do you think the country is doing? the country is terrible. how do you -- >> well, one of the things is we

don't have a measure to get at that, why do people think their life has improved when it comes to the things that they can enjoy? it's just a measure out there that we ask people what their sentiment is, but we don't actually measure it. and the lifestyle improvement factor would very much get at that. i think republicans who are always looking to figure out some way to critique the state of the economy because they have to live with the inconvenient truth that under democrats the economy has been better, true of clinton versus bush one and obama versus bush two and biden versus trump. so i think both sides of the aisle could benefit for their own purposes actually having a measure like this that gets at what it is that people feel has enhanced their life. now, we're only talking about material things that can be measured, so the kind of things you're pointing to on greater happiness that might come from any number of things that you

can't measure materially, we're not trying to get at. that's a very, very hard notion. but we do think when it comes to material consumption there's certainly a way to assess and measure if people really have a basis for thinking their life has improved versus being overwhelmed with the cost of just maintenance expenses. it's interesting to see if you look at the cost of basic tennis sneakers, adjusting for inflation they really haven't changed in more than ten years, the price. the price of going to a tennis match adjusted for inflation has more than doubled. so you have inflation itself within these life enhancing, lifestyle improved factors and even that gets something we have to assess. >> the new piece is online now for news week. great idea. tom rodgers, thank you so much for coming in, it's always good to see you.

thank you, tom. and coming up on "morning joe," emmy nominated law and order actor chris maloney is taking on a new case, giving voice to victims of what has been described as the quiet epidemic. he will join us along with filmmaker lindsey keys to explain. next on "morning joe." (psst! psst!) ahhh! with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spray flonase sensimist daily for non-drowsy long lasting relief in a scent free, gentle mist. flonase all good. also, try our allergy headache and nighttime pills. some people just know there's a better way to do things. and some people... don't. bundle your home and auto with allstate and save.

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it's chronic lyme disease. >> that was really good. that's actor chris meloni in a psa for the global lyme alliance. last month a group of advocates led by the "law and order" svu star went to capitol hill to seek increased federal funding to study the conditions of those suffering from the long-term effects of lyme disease. they had meetings with lawmakers from both parties hoping to bring bipartisan support to what the advocates say is a long overlooked issue. i would agree. and the emmy nominated actor joins us now, he also served as an ambassador for the global lyme alliance. also with us filmmaker lindsay keys who directed the documentary titled "the quite yet epidemic" focusing on living with lyme disease. thank you for coming in this morning. chris, that was a great psa. you nailed it. how did you get involved with

this? >> yeah, as a matter of fact, i'm kind of reliving that. that's very painful to watch because i've -- i've been through everything that was -- that was written on there. well, that's how -- that's why i'm here. >> i see. okay. >> my family has been severely affected by lyme disease and i needed a place to find support, to find an answer. so that led me to global lyme alliance and in the midst of that one afternoon midst of that one afternoon, my wife and i went to see "the quiet epidemic," lindsay's movie, and that left me paralyzed with pain and reliving everything that was in the film, and so we got connected and got together. >> very cool. >> so we've seen long covid, in

this country, now we have long lyme disease. >> yes. >> my concern as a grandparent and a parent, grandparent specifically, is little kids, summer time, out running, lawn, grass, what are the symptoms of a little kid's lyme disease. how would a parent or grandparent know enough to say, hey, come here, let me check you out here. >> we have heard of the bulls eye rash as being the classic sign of lyme disease. that occurs in about 25% of cases. that's important to note. you can look for rashes, they're not always going to be there. flu like symptoms in the summer, also known as the summer flu, joint pain that migrates throughout the body. mood personality changes. it's hard to know. if you suddenly notice that your child or your grandchild is not well and all of the laboratory

tests are coming back saying there's nothing wrong with this child, it's important to know that the laboratory tests are inaccurate and you want to find a doctor who is willing to make a clinical diagnosis and treat as quickly as possible. >> you know, chris, you're not a doctor, you're not a politician. you're a celebrity. we have seen the power of celebrities to focus attention on diseases or other issues facing the nation. what is it that you hope you yourself can do in this cause? and have you been surprised by the power of your voice in talking about this? >> pleasantly surprised. and thank god for that. i was more stunned and shocked by falling into this world of lyme disease and understanding the facts and figures. you know, it's been around since 1975. there is nearly no money being thrown towards research. what the medical professionals

understand it to be, they don't know. and they're slowly now admitting to that. no one is admitting to chronic lyme when there are millions of cases out there. it's, you know, a disease that needs attention. that's what we're hoping for. it needs congress to pay attention, and get some funding to research so that we can get an answer. i mean, this is one of the fastest growing epidemics that's coming our way. in the 1980s there were about 1,500 reported cases of lyme. now each year there are nearly half a million. of that half a million, at least 10% will turn into chronic lyme where there is, as of now, no cure. >> amazing. i spent most of my weekends on a farm, and almost everybody i know, incluing several members

of my family have had lyme disease. it is debilitating. what is the aim of looking for new treatments, exploring alternative treatments. are there things out there that we're not trying that we could be trying? >> there are so many therapies out there that we could be trying. the issue is as chris said, there's been a serious lack of funding. we also lack clinical trials. it's been 18 years since the nih funded a treatment trial for lyme disease. ticks are exploding across the country. they carry far more than just lyme disease. there are nearly 20 pathogens that have been identified in ticks at this point, and doctor do not have the tools backed by science to figure this out. we have to change that. >> all right. for more information, you can visit globallymealliance.org. actor chris melioni, and film

maker lindsay keys. thank you for bringing light to this. it seems really dire. i'm texting everybody about the cats. chris, i hope you're feeling better. thanks for coming on. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." ." liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete,

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i just can't believe he's calling it rudy's coffee and not ground zero. and in case you're wondering where this delicious looking coffee is sourced from, i can assure you it comes directly from rudy himself. that's all it is. you never heard of drip coffee. >> you know, i mean, that is the story of the week, that has just been -- the gift that keeps on giving or not. rudy's coffee. and rudy getting, i guess, served after a birthday party that he posted on social media saying you can't get me to the

arizona attorney general. come on, dude. all right, what are you thinking about as we close out the show, susan page? >> first item we talked about was the turbulence. the last item we talked about was long-term lyme disease, both of them related to global warming. >> we spend so much time talking about the trial, understandably, and the election understandably as well, but one of the big fallout things from this election could be the state of the planet and of course climate change is clearly the existential story of our time. it's a hard one to tell. >> because we're dealing with so many issues head on that are right in front of us. mike barnacle, final thoughts before we close out the show. >> i have been thinking about the upcoming memorial day weekend and the fact that it's not just a day for shopping or going to the movies or having a cookout. it ought to be a day when we think about who died on memorial day, why they died and think about the fact that we're walking around as a free people

here today because of what happened in the past in our history. >> totally agree, and i think all the issues that we're discussing pertaining to this election, it comes down to our rights and it comes down to democracy, and for what a lot of people fought for and died for. something absolutely to think about this memorial day weekend, and in the months and weeks and days leading up to the election. it's only wednesday, though. we've got two more days to get through. alex reminds me, why is it not friday? >> it definitely feels like it should be friday. >> it does. this has been a very long week. >> that does it for us this morning after four hours. oh, four hours and 17 long years on "morning joe." that does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports," twin hearings