keep it locked right here on msnbc. >> covering this third day on the stand for the key witness, michael cohen.

as a defendant we could tell you he was rolling a deep get again. he arrived with top republican fee gears but also the disgraced doj official jeffrey clark was in the courtroom. indeed, it was inside of the courtroom we continued our group coverage today of the defense, the witness, the lawyers seeing them all up close a few hours ago when i was in front of the new york criminal courthouse. i'm a member of the whole wide ranging team reporting on the trial for you, the da has been on offense for we's with damning receipts, strong witnesses we've told you about. today's continued heat on michael cohen's slowing the prosecutor's momentum in the trial. trumps lawyers conducting of winding and relentless cross

examination which has the das case wobbly. worse news for the da here is that the jury has now seen michael: admit or confirm a bunch of his own mistakes and lies. that's just a problem but it doesn't mean they can't win the case but it reminds everyone who's been following why there was all this discussion about michael cohen being a less than perfect witness. the jury was admonished again today as they are adjourned to not watch outside coverage or read or talk to others. they are supposed to focus on the evidence. as long as they are doing this we have no reason to think otherwise. has they see a litany of issues with michael cohen. the best news for prosecutors is that they've reviewed the entire line of attack and don't need the jury to love michael cohen they just need the jury when they take in all the evidence to think michael cohen's most recent version of the events is the actual true

version and amidst the two sides clashing across this case, the world is watching. >> michael cohen is set to return to the stand for another day of cross examination. >> another round, donald trump about to come face-to-face with michael cohen. trumps defense has pressed michael cohen. >> donald trump's attorney building to a crescendo trying to get michael cohen to crack. >> his credibility on the line. >> i think that they did damage today. >> the cross-examination scorching. >> the question is will it be effective? >> trumps lawyer has attempted, through questioning and the topics he's raised, to cast michael cohen is not just unreliable in a general sense or someone with a bad memory. as a vindictive serial liar. they want to get at least one juror's to doubt the testimony that basically they cannot in good conscience be convinced

beyond a reasonable doubt that trump did this and here's why this matters legally. we are just talking about michael cohen because we remember him because he was louder on tv a lot. they did discuss his dealings. there's part of the case, the media interactions for what he did for trump for many years, it's not that, it's quite specifically that they land the idea that this guy isn't on the level now. what he said in this very trial is fundamentally unreliable or that they have doubt about it. so i will go through the lines of attack with you and if you are sitting here watching saying it seems like the da is in choppy waters it's true. that's what's happening. it does not mean they cannot win the case and it doesn't mean they have to like it.

the are plenty of people including witnesses we've heard from, people who once liked and supported him who feel that justice should be done and he should face his accountable day in court and he should be convicted as ms. daniels said, if evidence supports it. we are trying to give you the full facts of what's happening right now. one line of attack was the possible ulterior motives. the trial's outcome will affect michael cohen personally, he said yes. pressing him on how his history here is very personally wrapped up that he failed to get out of jail early when he asked several times. then as part of the idea he has perhaps a vendetta that has distorted the truth the accuracy of what he told the jury, today like we had seen in earlier days the lawyers really bore down on his ups and downs with donald trump. during his legal problems how he wanted a pardon adding context to the answer that the issue came up because it was dangled to him and he wanted

the nightmare to end. his anger at being rebuffed to get any white house job whatsoever came up and again, that matters. the question raised is whether that has passed the point of anger which he's entitled to feel, he's a human being, it curdled to something that involves a vendetta where the truth could be sacrificed. he's spun that store your light about the history and he said he did ask to be president trump's personal attorney but not at a different role for general counsel. it went on like this today. on and on if you will. just like it did the other day. so it's possible that this meandering road could make the jurors bored or dilute the larger point that the defense attorneys are trying to make, the doubt they are attempting

to raise. it's possible on the other hand, i thought about this watching cohen go through this hour by hour that the cuts could ease away has his credibility as his credibility. another way to put this is if the da thought that they could clearly prove and win the case without michael cohen, they would have brought the case without putting him on the stand. others were involved who weren't put on the stand. mcdougal is on the stand because without the other money guy who is in jail which cannot be used against trump in court but makes him look bad here in the real world. voters and others could factor that in at the guy who was at the top of the financial food chain. trump has been to jail twice now but without him in a cfo they needed cohen is the only other trump aide who could speak to that state of mind which is why he is important. lawyers after things got like i told you, little meandering and boring, he found ways to dial it up. bearing down on his story,

telling in this very case in a moment that was heated, pushing cohen on the phone call he made. they've got records and they could see the call. cohen insists he spoke directly to trump which is a viable story. donald trump could get calls to the main line, to a cell phone or secretary or security line then it gets handed over. in sourcing or reporting we do that all the time you don't always get the top people directly. he called the bodyguard and spoke to trump according to his story. the call mattered because he said it was on this call were he and trump connected through someone else's phone and it was incriminating because he personally assured trump that the deal was done. his lawyer pounded on that. that was a lie, he practically yelled suggesting cohen maybe only spoke to the bodyguard who is now trying to make it worse adding another detail that become something that people could debate.

now, that is a big moment. it doesn't mean that he was lying or that the jury buys that but it is certainly memorable and it allows defense to put this front and center. they will probably refer to this in the closing arguments. >> he would use these tricks

and do the one that i read to you as well which basically said, we aren't asking for that we are asking for this. it's tactical. it's the kind of way the lawyer was attempting to get cohen cornered. that is one memorable exchange. playing it out for the jury as the audience for the tale about who is telling the truth so cohen isn't having his best week in the trial, not the best week of his life in all of this but not the worst. the prosecutors have been ready. this comes on the heels of cooperation from any other witnesses of the core outline of what cohen is asserting like david packer, stormy daniels, like the documents. i don't know exactly what the prosecutors will say in their closing but if they are any good they will attempt to close the circle on what they said in the opening which is we will show you all of the facts where we get to michael cohen.

implying if you think he's lying about the ski stuff it couldn't just be him because you have all these others risking so much including perjury charges to make some kind of conspiracy and then why would donald trump cut these checks? the kitchen sink approach. a lawyer even said sorry we are jumping around a little bit. though it was more than a little bit but they landed blows on his credibility. this afternoon i want to show you another thing again to make sense what is happening why people are saying the jury could have more questions about cohen at the end of the day that at the start. they asked him about something that he'd done. it doesn't mean he's always a liar but it does mean he did live. he did something that i could tell you is unusual. it's a violation of rules, he was secretly recording his own trial, breaching legal ethics. trump's attorney said you understand it is an ethical for a lawyer to record a conversation with their own

client, correct? he admitted that was correct and admitted that he did exactly that with donald trump and to explain the reasoning was to share with a third party. this isn't a crime or alleged to be a crime but if you do that as a lawyer you're breaking the very privilege that you have taken an oath to uphold. the privilege of confidentiality. they don't just keep it secret while they represent you, they take it to the literal grave. they don't tell anyone else and don't tell anyone else with a live recording which breaks the privilege. he did that to a member of the media, a friendly member of the media. talking about breaking it, he put this all the way out there. now, that could again be part of what i call these knicks and cuts about the jury's perception of cohen and whether they believe him about the core things. some of the things we've heard a lot about, it's one of the hardest things for trump's side to explain. it's the same thing i mentioned, there's the ethical

part which cuts against michael cohen and then there's what's on the tape which cuts against donald trump. like it or not have the tape was created when he seems to sound not only secretive but has a consciousness of guilt and wanted to pay hush money in cash. those were his own words. i will play this for you. cohen made the tape about paying cash for the models story with karen mcdougal. >> and it comes time for the financing we will have to pay you something there. >> here's what we learned today if you follow the news , that tape is bad for trump. i'm not sure that there's a good way to explain that away and at a trial you get to hear both sides. i don't mean this as a this to the lawyers. sometimes creative lawyering adds doubts to a complicated story so it's up to the jury.

not to you, to me or the outsiders. it's up to the jury to decide what the tape means and full holistic context of the evidence. it's interesting today. it's the first time we've heard how they plan to deal with this. the defense lawyers making an argument that he didn't mean actual cash or dollar bills but that he was distinguishing between using his own money and financing. cohen disputes that. although he says yes, separately, the word the would use in the world of real estate would be to express all cash transactions but the question here is if that's in a different context. thinking about that, this is why everyone deserves their day in court which is why i'm not saying that this is a good argument. i would say this is unlikely to be true based on what we know. they are raising what i've told you they are going to do which is reasonable doubt. does that tape alone with other

evidence give you 100% beyond reasonable doubt style confidence, high confidence that he was being secretive for had a consciousness of guilt which is what he said cash or will jurors sit there and go, well of people are talking about all-cash real estate transactions and it means not taking money out but not using financing alone be this was that. other reporters note in that moment trump was paying close attention. he's been also closing his eyes at other times. so again, going in the courtroom we all take turns and rely on a sketch artist to take in the information. people saw him carrying about that exchange. because of that kind of spin and wordplay, we don't know. maybe he was interested because he liked that defense or had a hand in it. whether they had cash, let's

hide something so bad it could be a campaign crime or i don't need to take out a loan, a lot of people don't have $130,000 laying around, michael cohen said he had to take a real estate loan partly to keep it from his family and trump would have had the money around so that is another one of his defenses. so you sit through this and you think what's the point? there is no point to that. the defense doesn't have to prove anything or have to have a conclusion or some grand narrative at the end of the day. they're just trying to make the street believe michael cohen less than they believed him yesterday or the day before. so far they are scoring some punches and doing just that as far as we could tell. cohen returns to the stand on monday and we have a special panel kicking off coverage and we will be back in just 90 seconds. seconds. directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. ♪ [suspenseful music] trains.

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it was a series of questions he said yes to each one. i thought that was an effective point. especially when he brought out some of the things he's said. attacking a judge as being corrupt or attacking prosecution as being the most corrupt in 100 years calling prosecutors animals. it was vivid language. it really showed a lack of, looking to blame anyone else and not accepting responsibility for what he'd

done and coupling that with changing his story about his press conduct wasn't a good look for him. >> a lot of us have been down there which gives an extra texture to this. you see a jury that's going i knew this it's normal. or do you see a jury that's hard to read and could be finding this worse than what the prosecution thought previously? >> i can't see the jury from the overflow room but the overflow room which has members of the public and press, people were coming out after that break the number of people were like i can't believe he called the judge that and the judge is like, a lot of people were focused on the testimony and what you said about the phone call. >> meyer, the same question , we can't read too much. the level of detail and repetition of these issues playing with michael cohen, they do seem to be more than just that's what it's like,

that's the world of trump. >> look, it would be fascinating to see the jury and from what i've heard from today they were very engaged, they were paying attention. i think what this will come down to and i agree that they landed punches. in fact they should have landed some punches. been having surprising conversations if there weren't about having landed some and it's true that michael cohen outperformed what a lot of people thought that he would do. >> that's fair. he has been calm. >> adding to that, the jury will be reminded by the prosecution , that's what david packer said about the reading meeting and trump tower. it wasn't in the interest of his business interest. things that cooperate a lot of the critical points he's made

so when you think about the fact that hope hicks reiterated that there was concern on the side of the campaign, donald trump was concerned. considering the fact there had been reinforcement, if they believe michael cohen. the points that they landed didn't really go to some of the testimony or his demeanor. so what could be easy to forget when you've got one witness on the stand and a lot of hits that were landed. what will they really remember about what they've heard over the last weeks? how will the prosecution land it's closing to remind them of the facts of the case and how is the judge going to tell the jury what these instructions are about this? all of this will be part of what the jury decides. >> going back to christie, we will get to you, you know. but maya raised the question.

remembering out the details i just don't think you could trust this guy. what the defense is doing if it fails i think that they will remember, i don't know about this guy but a core thing others also said that he did and paid for and the checks would show i think that it happened. >> that's where i'm at watching it. i would do this and say, given the cooperation we've heard so far, the fact that this story makes sense , you'd have to believe not only that michael cohen went rogue but others went rogue, it doesn't go along with the evidence so i believe what he's saying. that said, someone else looking at this could say look, i don't think he's been honest about everything on the stand. if i don't really believe him on this, will i take his word

to convict the former president? i think one question is, could you actually just put michael cohen aside? could you actually make the case without him? i think you actually need him. you need these conversations with michael cohen. >> that's what makes this a bigger problem for the da. >> 100%. as a prosecutor, never put a cooperating witness on the stand where i didn't feel like there was 100% credibility. i would debrief them . i knew what they were going to say. i felt like this was something i could sell to a jury. >> we are accustomed to the world of trump and it's a circus of his own making as others try to make this especially fair for him and in most trials you don't have witnesses even known mobsters giving long out-of-court rants going on. there are college kids who've got more discipline staying off of apps to do their homework

than michael cohen did during the trial. >> one thing i would say about michael cohen, i'm not a lawyer that i think that he reflects a lot of donald trump's aspects. this is his fixer so he behaves a lot like trump. so you see a lot of this deuce this reduces the seediness. a lot of us didn't remember this and we did this for a living, stormy daniels. >> some of them have sat right here. >> stormy daniels, karen mcdougal, the salacious checks. i think that there's so much in the here and now. you have to remember the political opponent , the speaker of the house. trump having people who are republican elected republicans saying that he's not allowed to

say because of the gag order. >> another side they tried to show the jury is that cohen is dodgy, lying to his own client. he would make recordings and people would sometimes say are you recording me and he would say no which was lying to them. it's not perjury or illegal but there's this idea of lying so easily to the people that he supposed to be working for. you brought some of this up earlier this week. he got in trouble for the statements he made. he admitted at one point some of this was me though, here's what he's telling us about the fraud in the alleged taxi case which he was later convicted. let's take a look. >> second of all, this whole thing about lying, i said this to you and others on the station. what did i lie about?

if you think that's going to stop anyone from using me on credibility, it's not. >> this goes back to again , there's all these ways he changed the story. he said he did it to then he didn't. now the story is yes i don't like to dispute these facts but they shouldn't have prosecuted me, well why not? five years, $4 million of not reporting income. i've prosecuted tax cases and i've supervised tax cases, this is well within the normal range of tax cases that would be prosecuted so you've got to hope that the jury thinks it's just oh it's bad enough because you don't know how bad his conduct really was >> do you think that the jury will remember that? you're saying he's had at least three different stories about just the tax fraud. >> yes, he's claiming

prosecutors threatened to prosecute his wife which again, prosecutors have denied this. you know, he put that out there. they didn't really touch on it other than to think to say, this is just him being a liar. that recorded call, it goes to the defense point that this is a guy that goes rogue. you just follow donald trump and say you need his approval for everything then here you're recording your own client and he doesn't know about it. >> really interesting i want to thank the super panel here as we barrel forward. the special to her two-hour edition of our coverage. coming up we get into the court today. first, this hour of the defense strategy from the insider we've relied on, a lot of us are interested we will get back

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what is your response to them saying you went rogue? >> that's the defense they will try to put forward. it's going to fail and fail miserably. there were notifications that came into the trump organization about her. she was going to go public with the information. >> michael cohen explains himself on this program. today he explained himself to the jury in the cross- examination we in covering. we are joined by the former prosecutor in the manhattan das office. welcome back. are you biased for your former colleagues that you have to say that the case was always going perfectly? >> they've got a difficult witness. >> i'm not bias, i can hear

neutrally. i'm a defense attorney. >> the case is going well but it's not going perfectly. today was probably the best example of it. the defense had a day off and they got to look over the testimony that michael cohen gave on tuesday. what they did with this, they landed some blows. at the end of the trial, both sides will go out to make the argument about michael cohen, the prosecution is going to say --. >> i've got to slow you down. it's giving lawyer. okay? it takes one to know one. before we get to closing arguments i want to touch on, you would give what kind of grades to what the defense was able to do. they don't have a whole cohesive story or an alternative of everything. they seem to raise not one, not two, but 6+ issues with cohen. >> i thought this was ably a

b+ because they threw a lot out there over the last couple of days. they are trying to see what sticks. having come up with an alternate theory about what happened here, they're trying to do a good job of showing michael cohen to be shifty and to show him to be a liar. today they did a good job to show him to be lying to his very jury so i think that's the first thing about it. i think there are areas where they did. that phone call that happened on october 26, that phone call that happened on october 26, 2016 to keith schiller, i thought it was a very effective way of showing michael cohen was lying to the jury. obviously they will argue this and the prosecution will say that wasn't a lie but this was a 92nd phone call that michael cohen testified as this being the moment he spoke with donald trump about stormy daniels. the call was preceded by text

messages between michael cohen and keith schiller about a girl who been harassing him. right before the call, keith schiller texted back call me. there's a 92nd phone call. i thought the defense did a good job of cross-examining michael cohen on that point. showing, you didn't really talk about stormy daniels during the phone call. it was about this girl who'd been harassing you. it's not just positive but it was a good moment for them to show michael cohen was lying on the stand. >> you don't mean it's positive but it's a slam dunk, it's bad. i'm curious if you could elaborate. we are watching this but not everyone is in the courtroom. have there been a follow-up text that said, glad i could connect you to the boss, have there anything supporting his version? managing to find something where they said, let's call and have a talk about this. this

unrelated harassment issue and then you had a short call about that. that's the end of it. we are to believe that you got on and off with the president as well as a candidate. >> they are called to use common sense and defense will say you are texting with somebody about something they will say call me and it's a 92nd phone call and it's obvious what you are talking about on the phone. michael cohen was saying, it was a call about stormy daniels. i don't fault cohen for that is much as i fault the das office for that. there's no reason that he was having a call with donald trump on that specific date or at that specific time. >> let's dive in deeper. going from a normal interview to like a reddit sub thread. do you think that a juror is convinced he lied about this to strengthen the case against trump to say not only did he

have intent but here's the day that the ends meet, could they have lied about it in good conscience and vote him in? >> they could because the core portion of this case is cooperated with so many other things so it doesn't really matter what day or what phone call or what time it was that he talked about stormy daniels. there's so much other specific information that he testified to that's cooperated. so this specific time, this call on october 20, october 24, 2016. >> if we were in court i would say to you at the end of this, so it's your testimony that it's more likely that michael cohen lied about the strengthening in the case? >> i do. >> well we don't rest because we've got more tv to do but it's always good to have you here. i appreciate your incisive view. our thanks to duncan. we have another view on the defense next.

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i'm standing as truth to power. this has been over the last five years, it's like a david and goliath scenario.

it's very biblical when you think about it. at the end of the day, yes, i'm the smaller guy. i am the david. somehow or another goliath is on his back. >> goliath may not be on his back but he's the first former president to ever be put on a criminal trial. michael cohen is a big part of that. we've covered the issues that came up in the cross- examination. there's no way to understand the trial and where it's headed without seeing all of this and the next and cuts the defense has been able to achieve on cohen as the witness. we are joined by a skilled defensive attorney. welcome. >> thank you for having me. >> it's good to have you. let's jump into the details. it's important to look at both the sides. what i mentioned on tuesday they landed punches. they will be a further response with closing arguments. let's take a look at this argument with todd blanche raising questioning that he was so upset about the rebuff for the white house job which added to a motive for potential revenge. defense played a moment from an episode of his podcast. >> i truly hope that this

man's ending up in prison. it won't bring back the i lost or the damage done to my family, but revenge is a dish best served cold. you better believe i want this man to go down and run side for what he did to me and my family. >> as defense counsel, what are they trying to achieve and what would you say is a counterargument that if cohen's story is true that he did pay a high price for trying to be loyal to trump and it would be okay if he was angry as long as he tells the truth? >> he's whining and it's always someone else's fault. i think mr. blanche pointed that out today. it's the judges fault, the prosecutors fault, the banker's fault, the loan officer's fault, it's trump's fault. you have to remember, the lies aren't totally related and they don't begin and end in trump world. he lied about the medallions and the irs and he lied to his

wife about the refinance and he lied to the judge at his sentence things so these things have nothing to do with trump and it's so wise and it's always someone else's fault. there's another quote, sinatra had at his bar said living well is the best revenge. maybe you should've taken that quote because this guy is damaged goods. blanche tagged him with that phone call. that cohen call is probably what will prevent the guilty verdict here. two interesting things about this. >> let me slow you down. we were discussing the phone call with the das office. i did want to mention you said he had been caught lying a lot and we reported on that and of course, if that meant someone wasn't fit to have their day in court you could not have represented donald trump the way you did because he's been caught and more lies than any person alive according to these

other accounts. >> that's some type of political statement but i'm not here for politics. >> we're just talking about lies in court and he's on trial and you know he's unknown and busted liar. >> i don't know that and i'm not here -- i have been saying the president biden who called me if i had the privilege to represent him i would say the same thing. i would look at all my clients, the difference i think with all due respect that you're missing here is, he took an oath. he swore to tell the truth to the jury. i did represent with a team of lawyers, the president and his second impeachment. he didn't appear or testify. i did represent the payroll corporation. president trump

was not a defendant. so this analogy fails. it's not like he took the stand in these cases that i represented him in and you could argue did he tell the truth or not. he took an oath to tell the truth. >> i'm not sure that the analogy fails but you got your time to address it. you mentioned the tape so i want to show evidence to the audience to get their views on this. the secret recordings, did you tell people you are recording them? blanche asked. he said who else did you record? he gave kind of a nonexhaustive list but he mentioned his own client trump and other reporters. what's going on here from the defense perspective and what did you want to say about the issue? >> on the tape issue there's two lawyers i understand on the jury. i am offended as a lawyer that a lawyer would surreptitiously record his client. be it donald trump, joe biden, or joe blow. >> i don't know this job logo

you keep bringing up. >> the average american citizen. >> i know that you knew. >> the tape i think, that will be an issue . the issue that was brought out about the phone call that you accurately reported on in earlier statements. this is a huge day for the defense. there's a parallel here as i see it, the proof that the da needs to show, another crime was the goal of what happened or didn't happen and cohen said no, it's all about the election and not about his wife and family. these aren't usually exclusive. now we find out in this crucial call, calling to deliver the news. one matter has been taken care of. he spends time talking about a 14-year-old kid, seventh grade or eighth grade who is cranking

him with prank calls. what kind of adult man fights with the 14-year-old kid? it's like if your doctor called you and you are waiting for days over biopsy results. i've got the biopsy test but let me tell you first about this 14-year-old seventh grader. >> here's what's interesting, i will note as they say for the record you the defense counsel with experiencing this you're both agreeing on one thing which is that was an effective point for the defense which raises doubt. we don't have resolution in this and raising doubts about whether or not he lied in the case and if the jurors could get past it fine but if they can't and it got doubt about that, if they've got doubt about that that's a big one. we've had you a couple of times

. i hope that you will come back. >> i'm overtime 20 seconds. >> costello went before the congressional committee yesterday and said under oath in everything that he said about him was a lie in this case . devastating. >> you tell mr. costello that i would love to ask him about that. we will be right back. ht back. ♪ [suspenseful music] trains. [whoosh] ♪ trains that sense what isn't on the schedule. ♪ trains that use the power of dell ai and intel. ♪ to see hundreds of miles of tracks. ♪ [vroom] [train horn] [buzz] clearing the way, [whoosh] so you arrive

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