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happened this past week, which was really the last week of argument in this historic criminal trial of donald trump. the first ever for a former president, as you certainly know by now. this final week was a short one, but a lot happened. michael cohen was back on the stand finishing his four days of testimony, and trump's lawyers began and ended the case. in one week we saw the d.a. and the defense team both rest. and we saw the defense witnesses, who, at times, stumbled. here is how it played out. >> the defense wrapped up with michael cohen after three days of cross-examination. >> it was a grueling three days. >> the prosecution has now rested its case. the defense has also just now called its first witness. >> robert costello back on the stand later this morning after yesterday's fireworks. >> he was nearly tossed from the witness box and his entire testimony was nearly stricken from the record. >> an extraordinary moment. >> his whole attitude on the stand can have the defense team rethinking its strategy of calling him at all.

>> the defense has rested its case after calling just two witnesses, but donald trump did not testify in his own defense. >> that is how it went down. it was action-packed. michael cohen mindscape cross raise some doubts about him as a witness. we covered that. we don't know how the jury will take it, but it was not all smooth sailing. indeed, this man was on the stand alleging and providing evidence alleging business fraud by his old boss, donald trump. had to admit under oath that he himself, stole from the trump organization. prosecutors also got their turn with cohen on redirect. return to the bottom line, where they basically said were you too busy to get trump's approval on the daniels payment? and cohen confirmed no, he was not. the point is, it mattered, and he said he got the confirmation. and the prosecutors are going to try to continue to turn this jury. both in the last week that we saw and their closing arguments, to hear why we are hearing from cohen. not because he is a model citizen and not because he was on trial.

because he was the person that trump pegged to be involved in all the stuff and he remains the key witness. the jury also heard this very simple statement that you have seen in any trial, fictional, law and order, or real. quote, your honor, the people rest. that is the only time, we think, and he prosecutors anywhere in this country will be able to say that about defendant donald trump. this is the only trial scheduled to conclude by the election. the evidence they have supplied means the people, that is the d.a. representing the people of new york say they have proven every element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. but that is their case. trump's lawyers got to stand up and start their counter arguments. they called this one lawyer links to cohen, who use on the pilot really showed you. this is someone that giuliani and trump have tried to use to discredit cohen. his name is robert costello. he also faced the grand jury and had a tough go of it this week. if you followed our coverage i told you we are going to tell

you exactly what happens. whether it is what you hope happened or what side you like, though everyone is free to have strong feelings in this case. we are going to tell you what is really happening. and for costello, the key longest witness they used, it was a disaster. he was rebuked by the judge for antics on the stand. he was interrupting. the judge found him arrogant and contemptuous and said so. and scolded costello. if you don't like my ruling, you don't give me side i and you don't roll your eyes. again, i'm going to show you exactly how the judge put it. this is not our commentary here. this judge live in the courtroom with, has been very fair throughout. even measured and kind of mellow at times. he said this witness above all others was quote contemptuous. that is a specific legal term, it means you could be held in contempt. although the judge did not try to jail him that day, probably because it would become too much of a distraction. some legal experts said that trump's defense lawyers would be better off not calling this troubled witness at all. after that when is the defense rested their case and said they

don't need trump to testify. and he has every right not to testify, as i told you. they have two days in control. they finished and called those two witnesses, compared to 20 by the d.a. a mismatch that is normal, that is routine because the d.a., the prosecutors have the burden. they have the burden of providing witnesses and evidence. the defense doesn't have to do anything. here they called a couple people to poke what they thought would be a couple holes. the jury was sent home and the lawyers have been hashing out towards the end of the week the jury instructions. >> testimony now complete, the jurors were sent home and the final phase of the trial got underway. >> a crucial hearing started about the nature of the jury instructions. >> what will be the last words to the jury before those 12 men and women decide the fate of donald trump in the hush money cover-up trial? >> the final showdown between the prosecution and the defense set to take place next tuesday, when both sides present their summations before the jury.

>> these jury instructions matter a lot. they might matter more than closing arguments, which are big deal and of course we will be covering. that is the last thing the jury hears on the subject. but the last thing the jury hears on the rules matters a lot. it comes from the judge, it has that authority. they are read out, and the lawyers are clashing about what exactly goes in those instructions. all of this will go to guide how the jury considers what trump knew and what he intended. i told you this as fair as i can. part of the allegations here, part of the crimes have effectively been proven, by which i mean when you have the paperwork and it is lying, and you have donald trump's signature on it, you have proven the basic element of the fraud, that is this isn't what they said it was, they lied about it. you have cohen and the paperwork showing that. but that is not the whole case, as you heard. and you need to have trump's intent on that, as well as the secondary issue about this

campaign crime. trump's lawyers wanted to take all of this, what i just referred to in simple form, and try to make it even more complex with a higher burden than the law might require. at times they were basically asking for special treatment. and i told you, they have the right to make these requests. the judge has been through this rodeo before and he is in charge, and he can just say no, that is a ridiculous request. they did make some ground on some issues, but when they asked the judge to consider the extraordinarily important nature of the case, basically hey, our defendant was president defense, the judge that i am not going to change the law. i'm not going to do that. you can't just say hey, this guy is important in some generalized sense. remember, no one is above the law. trump had also been seen dozing off in court draw the course of the trial, which is a contrast to how he was during the jury instruction arguments. sometimes donald trump in politics and in court plays a more disengaged or more aloof person than he actually is. remember, he is a reality show star, he is an actor in many ways. and suddenly we saw that he could perk up and pay a lot of

attention. there was no napping in the debate over the jury instructions, which suggests that this defendant knows exactly how important they are. as i mentioned, on tuesday the jury hears the closing arguments and the judge has told the jurors they may have to stay late, with the idea being that you can see the timeline here in fairness to everybody, we set aside enough time here after the break where everyone can go rest and all that. and the jury sits down, and according to the judge he is hoping to have them all here these arguments, perhaps finish them on tuesday and return to deliberations on wednesday. if you thought this thing wasn't transparent without cameras in the courtroom during the trial, well, jury deliberations are of course secret completely. so hour by hour, we will hear nothing about what they are doing. what the vote might be, what they are thinking, what the debates are. they can submit questions that can be read out of the judge in court, asking for evidence, or announce their decision. we don't know how long the deliberations will take. we don't even know which parts of this case will matter most

to the jury. there are some big things that we think will matter. stormy daniels, for example, testifying about something that trump's's said. michael cohen, both what he said, basically i witness to the crime, and what he was attacked on. but does he tell the truth? those are the kinds of things we could infer the jury will care about, but we don't know. i say that not as an exercise, not as an observation, but as the actual humility of our justice system when it is supposed to work. we are not supposed to know in advance from the outside. we can watch, we can observe, we can report. but it is what happens inside among those jury members, the jury of your peers, that is all that matters in this courtroom in the week ahead. we have two legal experts who know all about that and how important that process is. we are going to get into this when we are back together in 90 seconds. seconds. your fiber, your way. i don't know how long it's been there.

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our legal eagles and msnbc analyst. andrew, i want to ask you to broaden out. we are in this day by day, but this is our special. when we look at the entire case, what do you think has been proven, what is the most clear and convincing evidence that the d.a. has been able to bring, and what if any reasonable doubts you think it still be there? all in, all holistic. >> i think something that kind of gets lost is one of the things that has been, i think, established beyond any question at all. and frankly isn't much of a battleground in this trial. something that is pretty shocking, which is david testimony that he had an agreement with donald trump , one-to-one, principal to principal, that there was not just a catch and kill scheme, but also a scheme to intentionally defame opponents and say you had a median outlet , and many people may view it as a downmarket media outlet. the one that was in cahoots with

a political candidate. and so, just from a political perspective, sort of, to me, it should still be shocking. and i think to the jurors it will be one of the reasons why they may care about this case. because that is sort of one of the intents that informs why this is a felony. i think the area where there is going to be the most -- >> i will go back to on part two, but on part one of what you said, i'm going to jump in. moderators privilege. i am not judge merchan, but i get a jump in. you made such an important point, i want to underscore it. you said downmarket, supermarket, this matters a mark . i want to echo what you're saying, because you are talking evidence as a lawyer. if not for us to say what is better or not, the new yorker or the atlantic, or this tabloid. this was an extraordinary secret agreement, it was unfair to the voters, obviously. it was also unfair to all of donald trump's republican

primary candidates, some of whom complained. there was something going on, but it wasn't exposed then. so we think about the law as a search for truth, i really appreciate what you are saying because the cases already exposed more truth. unfair to the voters, unfair to the republican primary candidates, and unfair to the democrat. we know all the politics about that. you make a great point, i give you back the ball for the second point you want to make, and kristi, same question to you, please. >> let me begin really quickly, because kristi is a really good trial lawyer, also. really quickly, i think the area where i think there will be pitched battles is about what the donald trump no about the false business records? obviously you have michael cullen, but i think that you will hear a lot about putting together pecker , hope hicks, and just how unlikely it would be that michael cohen and allen weisselberg, who i think clearly knew about the scheme, why they would keep it from donald trump. i think you are going to hear

that as the main battleground. there will be lots of embroidery, but i think substantively, that will be the main issue. >> kristi? >> i completely agree. i think as to the piece of this about proving that there was an agreement to unlawfully influence the election, there is just so much evidence from so many different sources about that piece, not just for michael cohen, but from david pecker about the whole meeting in august of 2015 was set up. direct conversations not just between michael cullen and donald trump, but between david pecker and donald trump. and also hearing about the fact that even after the election , not just david pecker, but hope hicks both having donald trump say if either of these stories, whether karen mcdougal or stormy daniels got out, it would've been damaging to the campaign. and i don't see any way that you would describe why, for stormy daniels, they were delaying the payments if the purpose of the payments was

just to prevent embarrassment to his family or to himself and not to the campaign. the timing doesn't add up. otherwise he would've made the payment at any point. so i think that point is very strong, and there are so many witnesses that corroborate each other in that. i agree with andrew, the evidence that donald trump caused these false business records to be made, that doesn't have to be direct. it can be indirect. but there really wasn't evidence that donald trump was directing or requesting anybody to make the false business records. so, where do you get this evidence? i think ultimately there is going to be an argument. look, he was kind of working in concert with different people, he understood from allen weisselberg that there was going to be a reimbursement to michael cohen, and donald trump knew that there would be a reimbursement, as well. there is a document, a very important document that donald trump signed, saying that michael cohen was going to be reimbursed for expenses in 2016.

now, the burden of proof is not on the defense, but the defense had presented no theory when it put forth its case as to what those expenses were. and the expenses were between $100,000-$250,000. so if it of its not these checks never were for reimbursement in 2017, what were the other payments for? again, i think the evidence does come together really well that donald trump, in fact, knew that these payments of $35,000 checks each month were not for future legal expenses, but were for the reimbursements . >> kristi, do you ever binge watch those episodic shows like ozark where you have to catch up on the story? yeah? my question for you as a prosecutor is how will the d.a. take that approach, that everyone remembers, in the first 30 seconds of episode 15.

they don't even try to cover everything that happened. but they quickly tell you, you remember when they had the gun, and they found the gun, and this person got killed. now they found the drugs. what with the prosecution in your view do, if they do it well, you have a lot of experience. we showed just some of these witnesses, like 20 in total. we don't expect them to summarize everything. how are they going to catch everyone up, and get the key witnesses to drill home what they want the jury to remember? >> so, i think michael cullen, being the prosecution's last witness, he really laid out the story. and so, i would use his testimony to lay it out again but then continue to corroborate him throughout you heard this not just for michael cullen, you also heard, for example, the delaying of the payment to stormy daniels. why did that happen? you heard from michael cohen why that happened, because donald trump did not want to make the payment until after the election when it would not

matter. but you also heard that from keith davidson. he understood the same thing to be true. and you saw that in fact the emails about all the excuses michael cohen came up with, and you show the emails. kind of weave through the evidence. use michael cullen to tell the story, but show all of the ways in which he has corroborated along the way as you take the jury through that narrative. >> andrew? >> i think, to follow up on what kristi is saying, i do think you sort of use a timeline . and you can use a powerpoint or a physical chart. if you are old like me, you may do it physically. you could issue a through a powerpoint. and it is really to try and create, the timing here is so good for the government, as kristi said. and i think you sort of create this timeline and you layer it with things that are hard evidence. phone records, emails, things that cannot be disputed. the checks, the signatures. then you layer into that timeline the things that are softer, such as david

testimony, hope hicks. but there are certain people, like hope hicks, there is no way to challenge her testimony. the jury is going to accept that. and so, there are all these different pieces. the one thing on my to slightly differently, but i'm not sure. it will be interesting to see what happens. i might present everything and then focus on michael cullen, sort of talk about just how strong the case is before you even get to him, and he is sort of the icing. because the defense, i think, is going to want to say he is indispensable to finding a conviction. and i think the state is going to want to say he is not indispensable. he is additional. and yes, he is credible. you know he is credible. but you are going to hear so much of the defense saying the prosecution has to have you rely on him, and he is credible. obviously kristi is right, they are going to be sure and come up with all sorts of corroboration, which he is, and frankly, the last defense witness with some of the best

corroboration for michael cullen. >> ironically, yeah. i think that is a fair point. the other big thing, before i lose you both. i have been dying to ask you. i like the specials because we have more time to kick back. something we haven't heard about yet. yes or no, do you think we will hear the defense, the trump lawyers on tuesday say where is allen weisselberg, and why did we hear from them? andrew? >> yes. they will say -- >> and kristi? i want to get both of you. >> yes, i think they will try that. >> all right, and both of your expeditions? i don't do predictions, but i think it is reasonably likely they will hit that, which will be an interesting piece. this is the phantom, currently incarcerated for the second time trump cfo. if you were thinking about working with the trump organization, if you are

wanting to do business with them, you should know that their cfo has been to jail twice in the last couple of years. the first andrew and then kristi. >> so, it's very tricky because the defense does not have the burden to do anything. but you are allowed to say the following, which is the defense doesn't have to do anything. they can sit back. but they did choose to put on a case. they do have subpoena power. they have the ability to put forth witnesses. and if they thought those people would be helpful, they had the right, not an obligation, but the right to call them. and frankly, allen weisselberg and keith schiller, the two sort of big missing witnesses are people very much aligned with them and in their control. so no one was preventing them from calling them. but you have to do that in a very careful way, so you don't suggest that they had an obligation to call them. >> 30 seconds left, kristi, please. >> yeah, i think of the defense

make that argument you are then going to hear on rebuttal, they could've called them, as well. and again, in a careful way. the idea that he was equally available to both sides, and then i think you will probably hear some arguments from the lawyer is not in the presence of the jury about whether or not some jury instructions should be given to the jury about just that fact, that he was equally available to both sides and both sides chose not to call him. we have not seen the jury instructions yet to know if that is an instruction they are going to be given, but if the defense opens the door on that, a jury instruction to that effect may be warranted. >> super interesting to hear both of you, especially with the acumen and the nuance you have about how it worked. if you took out all the court rules you can imagine the defense saying, if this is such a strong case why didn't they have the guy who drew up this supposedly terrible plan? and you can imagine the prosecutor saying because he is a crook and he is a liar and he is in rikers and we don't trust him. but there are more rules on how

they talk than that. that is more for the law and order reboot. andrew comes back a little later, kristi, great to see you. appreciate both of you. when we tell you at home that we are doing the specials, what makes you special? it can't be the anchor. i am here all the time. not really the topic, we have been covering this. i will give the answer. sometimes it is the guests. we just had two great ones, and tonight we have two laser prizewinner doris kearns goodwin. she is here tonight for the special. and another special guest, the lawyer for one of the key star witnesses, stormy daniels. with me for the first time coming up. coming up. an alternative to pills, voltaren is

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those who are still with us, yes. grandpa! what's this? your wings. light 'em up! gentlemen, it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. the former president coming face-to-face with adult film actress stormy daniels. >> this is what i want to be known for. >> riveting bombshell. sometimes a key testimony. >> was at hush money to stay silent? >> yes, i was concerned for my family and their safety. >> this is her lawyer, clark

brewster. couldn't be prouder of my client. >> the cross was right up her alley, and she dealt with it well. >> she was not going to let her story be mischaracterized. >> stormy daniels is a key witness in this trial. she spent about eight hours on the stand. her testimony is crucial to whatever happens next. we are joined now by her lawyer, clark brewster. thanks for being here. >> my pleasure. >> what do you think she got across as a witness about the things she knew from her own experience, primary knowledge in this trial? >> well, the thing i think she really brought the courtroom was the genuine openness, the transparency, the ability to deal with the cross, and both of the facts. even if there were contradictions in her previous statement, to explain why. and i believe she appeared to be very credible, very genuine. and the jury got to see a

person that experienced what happened to her. and i think she related very well not courtroom. >> we have seen different approaches to cross-examination over the trial. now you are joining us in the special, so we have it all. i think it is fair to say that michael cohen had a rougher cross exam. he certainly had to concede not only falsehoods, but criminal and other acts, which is known, because he is a convict. and ms. daniels is not in the same position. over time it came clear that her cross was not the hottest or worst moment, that she did pretty well, i think it is fair to say. i want to show that they discussed with her, what about the 130,000, and what her motivations were. she said i don't care about the amount. it was just get it done. the money didn't matter to me. and they had this back-and- forth. of course, the whole thing is about money. and at the trump attorney was also able to say well, you didn't know what trump's involvement was. indeed, at the time, as we have

all since laird, the money came out of a michael cohen loan. she said not directly, no. does any of that, in your view, matter to the core issue of donald trump's guilt? how should people understand what she said there? >> i think what really heated up the need to quiet her was the access hollywood tape. when that broke, there was kind of a fevered effort on the trump side of things to try to quiet as many women as they could. two that we know about, obviously, karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. that was the motivation, that is what set the fire. in stormy, obviously, would not have known what was going on behind the scenes on the trump side. but she certainly knew what was going from her perspective. and from her perspective she thought if this is documented and dealt with in a way, if something happens to me, i will feel as if i have at least some protection, that it is documented and known about. so that was her plan. either to

go public and reveal what happened, so it was a matter of record, or have it documented in the form of a nondisclosure agreement with the payment of some money, at least, to document that. and that is what she did. >> in the questioning, trump's lawyers seem to suggest or argue that ms. daniels worked, that her career somehow makes her less than credible, or even in their arguments, somehow a questionable individual. i don't know whether they will return to that in closing. do they think they crossed the line there? >> well, if they crossed the line i think the jury saw who she really was and what she dealt with in her life, and how she dealt with it. she is an incredible success as a person, and not only in that industry, but the film industry. and what she has chosen to do since then, being so involved in film. i think that falls flat. but i do believe that was a narrative he believed to take advantage of her, that she was in this industry, that she would not tell people or that she could bring more women into

his sphere. so the very thing they are accusing her of now is what made her a target for him, in my view. >> and clark, it is no secret to you or are viewers that being stormy daniels's lawyer is a certain kind of job with exposure, political heat. we have had the past lawyers up. keith davidson ended up testifying in this trial, one of the early witnesses. famously represented her and was in conviction of crimes both related to that representation and other crimes, as you know. and is still in prison. since you are here, we heard from him, it was his first jailhouse interview and sometime at the dawn of his trial. since you are here, i want to give you the benefit of responding, because he said things about this history with your client. take a listen. >> i think this is the wrong case at the wrong time. i think the case is, in many ways, stale at this juncture. you are talking about conduct

that occurred eight years ago. it had been represented to me that she had not attempted to extort donald trump in the campaign in the waning days of 2016, that they had come to her. and i believe her when she told me that repeatedly. unfortunately, in early 2019 i came to learn that that was not true. >> he no longer represents her, you do. your response? >> interesting from a guy that has been convicted of extortion, fraud, embezzlement. to suggest there is some kind of extortion scheme, when in fact, he actually was engaged in extortion in the nike case is quite interesting. in 19 i began representing stormy in early march of 19, late february, early march. i was involved and i had the conversations the revealed that we knew he had forged her name and embezzled the money. he had been completely quiet,

was not referred returning her phone calls area and had just goes to her for weeks. the idea that he had come into the knowledge he was doing something wrongful and his ethics were so strong that he had to withdraw from presenting her is nonsense. >> understood. and you represent her now, so we wanted to get you on that. final question, and you are smiling, do you have more? >> no, i find avenatti's ability to attempt to reinvent himself to be quite interesting. >> fair enough. in closing, the final question, do you have any views of what you expect when the jury gets the case? what is this ultimately mean, and whatever the result may be to your client, ms. daniels, who i think it is fair to say has been through a lot. >> she has, and it is hard to predict what jurors think. no matter what you might think, what you think one of them will do, when they get into the

deliberative process different results occur. it will be really interesting to see their verdict. i think it is going to benefit the prosecution greatly to be able to go last and explain the evidence in a way that is powerful, that meets the jury instructions. and i don't believe there is any real doubt that the criminal acts occurred. the question is whether this jury will convict, that is the issue. >> understood. clark brewster, attorney for witness stormy daniels. thank you for your time on the special. appreciate it. and we have a response from andrew wiseman, and as promised, doris kearns goodwin tonight. those are both coming up.

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we are back with andrew wiseman. on more than one topic . i just heard from stormy daniels lawyer there, as mentioned, her very first lawyer that did this deal as a witness. her lawyer convicted of crimes related to her in dishonesty, which i mentioned, and he is other. i'm curious what you thought of everything we heard. >> sure. well, one thing that is really striking with the clip you played from michael avenatti, and we heard it with bob castillo, the last witness, is i had always been taught as a lawyer that you have a continuing duty of loyalty to your client. you may no longer represent them, but you can't just get on tv and start besmirching them.

at least that is what i thought the ethical rules were. so there is something that just as a lawyer that i am sort of stunned, because when you have a client you have that obligation to them. so i very much respect in your guest. he is representing her, and he is not allowed to besmirch her. and he is resenting her interest, and other lawyers should not be doing something different. the other thought i had, and i was in court for stormy daniels's testimony. the whole case here is that donald trump is accused of not wanting her story to come out. and he had a cross examination of her that was hammer and tongs. in her testimony wasn't even all that important to the case. this was just, whether she was telling the truth or not was really almost irrelevant. because the issue is did he want that story to be out there or not. but david pecker and hope hicks

, who had very damaging information to give to the jury, they had very light cross examinations. so in many ways, what you saw with respect to stormy daniels was almost a continuation of the reason he didn't want, in 2016, this story to come out. he is still adamant in trying to prove that this did not happen and did not want people to believe it. and you saw it in court, and it is what the actual charge is. and finally, i just think stormy daniels did a really good job, particularly in cross examination, and humanizing herself and making people understand who she is. she was wicked smart, as the young kids say. >> yeah, i think all that is fair. for the jury that was getting this narrative, as you say, you hear from her as a person. and i think the d.a.

scored points as well by being very clear, there were stories that were false. there was a doorman story which they said very clearly in opening arguments, you're going to hear other things that are false. we are not just throwing everything at donald trump for no reason, but if he is lying about this and his lawyers, as they are allowed to do, or presenting a story, we will hear from the witness herself. so that was striking. andrew, on more than one topic in our special, thanks for being here. >> glad to be here. take care. >> absolutely. we wanted to get that perspective from andrew on ms. daniels current lawyer, and what he told us. up next, as promised, renowned historian doris kearns goodwin on how the nation is taking in this living history. on us. so you'll get a free phone and a smartwatch and a tablet. yep, all 3 on us only at verizon.

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♪ liberty. ♪ we hear these words so often. unprecedented, historic, consequential. but i can tell you no matter what happens in the weeks ahead, they have now rested the case in the first criminal trial of any former president, who is, of course, running for president. this is history. it has captured the nation's attention, and it is reaching a massive audience in new ways as we live through history. just as fdr had the radio and kennedy have tv, and his trial, while not itself televised, is very much being discussed and thus shared, and thus broadcasted in its own way through our own digital tools in social media today. >> we really are nearing the end of this trump trial.

>> and just 45 minutes of testimony this became the worst day in court for donald trump. >> really pleading to trump, follow my order please. i'd don't want to have to put you in jail. >> i don't think we give trump and his lawyers enough credit for the strategy they developed. >> what a loser. donald trump doesn't testify. >> this is how many millions of americans and people around the world are first learning of things that are happening. you and i might read the transcripts or follow it on tv, or listen to the lawyers. and that is a part of it, but a lot of people are getting it this way. trump and his allies are also trying to not only shape how people understand what is happening inside the trial, but argue that the whole thing itself is somehow a witchhunt or unfair, not on the level. polling shows most americans still trust jerry's. in fact, de jure system, which is about how we trust each other to follow these rules in court is

more trusted than other aspects of the system, like what judges do. and about a third of republican voters still say, and this is interesting. if trump is convicted in the next week or two, it could happen, they would no longer be able to vote for him. as promised, and as, quite honestly, promoted. the story of doris kearns goodwin, the presidential historian and pulitzer prize winner is with us in our special tonight. her new book is an unfinished love story, a personal history of the 1960s. welcome. >> thank you. glad to be here, as you say, in a historic moment. >> yeah, i will start with a straightforward, maybe easy question. what do we need to keep in mind when we are living through history like this? and doesn't matter, as mentioned, that many people who will ultimately process the outcome of this trial and go on to vote are learning about it in new mediums, including the internet with all of its pros and cons? >> i think what is going to be really important in these weeks ahead is how the country

regards whatever the jury decides. i mean, i love the idea that still there is a trust in the jury decisions. that sixth amendment is such an important thing. and if the former president were to be convicted, and if people then began to attack the jury system as we saw it attacked after the election was lost, the electoral system was devastatingly attacked. then i think the country is going to be in trouble. what we have got to hope somehow is that we can educate the country as to what the jury means, what it means to have 12 citizens, if you were to be convicted, and why we need to trust that as we have trusted it over an enormous amount of our time. started by the pilgrims way long ago. and then there might be an acceptance of the decision as it is. we still haven't accepted, at least large numbers have not accepted what happened in the election. and if we were to have another distrust of another institution, i think the country is really going to be in trouble. and it is up to the media to do

what i can right now to really describe what it means to have those 12 people come to that decision, if it were to be a conviction. and i think that is the chapter that is ahead of us, that may be even more important than what the decision is, itself. >> as you say, the justice system, that branch of government. while it has its problems, and we have covered them, it is supposed to be more independent, less political, less partisan than the other branches, obviously. and that has worked in some ways. the numbers are referred to, i want to do the comparison. when you look at congress and the presidency, you know, congress has, people have no confidence in it. the presidency depends on the situation, but the supreme court has fallen in the last five or 10 years, and is seen, i would argue, doris, not as a problem with the court, but the people think the court itself has become too political and they act like politicians. now they are getting politician like numbers. let me flip the question to you and ask, if trump is not

convicted through acquittal or hung jury, so many people feel they have just seen this public evidence of a crime. what is important for people to consider on that side, as well? because it has to go both ways, doesn't it? >> you're right. i think there might be an argument on the part of the people who are disappointed by the decision, while the rule of law was not applied fairly because somebody had power. and that will be an equal problem, because then you are not trusting the jury in that sense. i think we just have to put our trust in the jury. that is the only thing on either side we can say. one of the things that old abraham lincoln said, which is still to be determined, and your percentage about people who might not vote for the former president if he is convicted suggests that. lincoln said that sentiment was more important even than a court decision, was more important than a law that is passed by congress. and what he meant by that is that if a settled feeling that develops in the country, not just public opinion, but a settled feeling developed that

slavery was wrong, there was nothing to stop that from being undone. if a feeling in the country is felt that this is the wrong thing that the president did and he should not be elected, that will be one decision that i think will be made. it is going to be public sentiment between now and november. really the history of how this country is responding, how democracy responds, and whether the institutions hold up. >> is really striking when you put it that way. and what we need is this backstop. precisely because things have gotten this intense, especially with republican attacks on the rule of law itself, and people flying up to new york to doubt the whole jury system, that we need it more than ever. doris kearns goodwin, as promised, the special ingredient to our special tonight. i wanted to mention your new book, an unfinished love story,

which debuted at number one. we will put it on the screen and people can find that wherever you get your books right now. we always love having doris on, it is a treat. i want to tell everyone of the special that we have, reporting from inside the courtroom. our whole team, the lawyers and anchors you see on msnbc. i want to mention next week will be back there. on tuesday i can tell you i will be inside the courtroom to see and report on those closing arguments for you in person. you can go online and see what we share from that footage. go to any of your favorite shows to find our extra coverage. keep it locked right here on msnbc.

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