remember memorial day, all veterans that died for us. and remember those that died hoping that their children and grandchildren would experience the america, the american veterans did. and their families on memorial day. that does it for me, thanks for watching. i will see you back here next weekend at 5:00 p.m. eastern. right now, it is the sunday show with jonathan kapok. dishonoring the fallen, on this memorial day weekend, how donald trump's praise for insurrectionist's and dictators is a slap in the face of americans who gave their lives in the fight for democracy at home and abroad.

a presidential historian and author john meacham joins me live to discuss the state of our democracy today. the beginning of the end, we will break down what we can expect from closing arguments and jury instructions and trumps hush money election interference trial this week. and the chances that trump will be the first former president convicted of a felony and a look at what happens when trump steps out of the magna bubble. >> the libertarian party should nominate trump for president of the united states. whoa! >> i am jonathan capehart, this is the sunday show. the tomorrow is memorial day , a day to remember our military service members who made the ultimate sacrifice for this country. according to historian david blight, black americans were the first to honor fallen

soldiers. black writes that in may, 1865, the black community in charleston, south carolina held a parade for a union soldiers killed in the war and, quote, converted confederate real men into their own festival of freedom. that first celebration in charleston grew into a national holiday, commemorating the hundreds of thousands of americans who have died defending our democracy. as president biden told the graduating class of west point yesterday, our rights and the system of government that protects them cannot be taken for granted. please know better than anyone, freedom is not free, it requires constant vigilance and from the very beginning, nothing is guaranteed about our democracy in america. every generation has an obligation to defend it and protect it and preserve it and choose it. now it's your turn.

>> a sharp contrast to donald trump, whose former chief of staff, john kelly, confirmed to cnn last year that trump had referred to wounded and fallen servicemembers as, quote, suckers,", losers. while visiting france for the 100th anniversary of the end of world war i, of all places. an accusation trump denies. just last night, trump mocked the sacrifices of real soldiers with a promise to release the, quote, hostages from january 6th. many of those capital riders were threatening to murder lawmakers and destroy our democracy in trump's name. but instead of condemning that attack, trump is actually suggesting he preferred dictatorship to the presidency at a rally in the south bronx on thursday, trump, again, praised authoritarian leaders. >> when you see president xi of china, when you see ken jeong

of north korea. when you see putin and you see all these people, they are at the top of their game, whether you like it or not. >> then there is trumps vision for another white house term, and an ad posted on trumps social media account answers the question of what is next for america? with a headline reading, quote, creation of a unified right. trump campaign blames a staffer for posting the video and took it down the next day, but it says a lot that a nazi slogan went public. members of congress who amplify authoritarian propaganda. jd vance says the u.s. could learn from hungary's far right prime minister, viktor orban. orban's own adviser once called him, quote, pure nazi for telling hungarian, quote, we do

not want to become peoples of mixed race. but another disturbing development is coming from the highest court in the land. supreme court justices have the ultimate power to uphold or undermine our democracy with a no term limits to keep them in check. there is also no real enforcement of its ethics code, as we are learning from justice samuel alito's choice of outdoor the core the new york times reports that two flags associated with the stop the steal movement flew at alito's private residences. both types of the flags raised there were carried during the insurrection. and although alito will participate in upcoming decisions related to donald trump and january 6th, there is no sign that he will do the moral or ethical thing and recuse himself. it is a reminder that trumps anti- democratic ideology could consume all three branches of

government if trump is returned to the oval office. so, tomorrow, as we honor the men and women who died on the front lines of wars around the globe, remember what they fought for and why it is up to us to make sure their sacrifices were not in vain. joining me now, john meacham, the rogers chair in the american presidency at vanderbilt. he occasionally advises president biden on historical matters and major speeches. he is the author of the call to serve, a visual biography of george hw bush, which comes out this tuesday. john, thank you very much for coming back to the sunday show. talk about why it is an affront to the fallen that a former president and potential future president is praising authoritarians and parenting nazi slogans as part of his campaign >> well, you know, there's a difference between patriotism and nationalism. and that may sound overly dorky

but it is incredibly revel relevant to where we are now, as you have just laid out. patriotism is allegiance to an idea, out of principles, and the united states, are best patriotic stakes finds its expression in allegiance to the declaration of independence, as our mission statement, the constitution, as it has been said, is our users guide. nationalism, however, is about allegiance and protection and privileging of your own kind, people who look like you, people who were born where you were born, coreligionists, that there is a sameness to it, and it doesn't necessarily involve principal. the mortal thing about american democracy is that we, in fact, have managed, despite all of our imperfections, put the principle that all men are

created equal, the most important sentence originally in english by thomas jefferson, we put that sentence at the heart of the national? fear meant and the men and the women who we commemorate today, tomorrow, and whatever we ponder, this remarkable democratic, d symptoms that lets us live lives of consequence and liberty, whenever we think about them, imagining people, we are commemorating people who were willing to die for that principle, not for just people who looked like them, but for a principal that we were all created equal. and to introduce and promulgate and defend and repeat all of which president trump and his followers have done. a vernacular of dictatorship and authoritarianism and autocracy is to undermine the very system that they wish to

represent. and to my mind, it is a choice we are making to 49 to 50% of the country for some reason, are choosing to enable this authoritarian movement. and it is incumbent, therefore, nobody else to stand up against it. >> and to that point, john, you know what worries me? that a sizable chunk of the american electorate appears ready to give up on democracy, including elected officials like senator vance, who is out there praising authoritarians. so talk me off the ledge. if you think i am worrying too much. >> no, don't jump but stay on the ledge. because by being on the ledge, you will continue to tell the story of what american democracy should be. and if you tell that story,

that is the only way we have is to tell the story and to show how democracy, in fact, delivers for people. you are not at all wrong to be terrified about this. this is also a country, let's be clear, that for much, far more of its years of existence, who have lived outside of compliance with the declaration of independence, that we have lived inside compliance. right? you and i have talked about this before. this country wasn't founded in 1619 or 7076, this country was founded in 1965, when there was actual, the ballot box was actually integrated at president johnson side of the immigration and nationality act in 1965 that removed those racist 1920s photos that only allowed, tended to only allowed favor northern europeans. so we are a very young country.

a very young democracy. and so you have to stay on the ledge. and keep pointing out the things you pointed out. >> yeah, american democracy is only two years older than i am. i was born in '67. you know, one more thing, because trump has cranked up his propensity for rejection lately and is trying to turn president biden's attacks on trump against him. listen to what he said, what trump said at the libertarian conference last night. >> joe biden's radical left democrat party is a fascist movement that wants to throw you in jail, the fact is that joe biden is a threat to democracy. >> you know, trump is engaged in all this projection, the new york times reports that he has cast doubt on the election result earlier and more often with each campaign. what is trump up to with this? >> exactly that. and it is working, by the way.

the polling shows that an extraordinary number of republicans, folks think that democrats are a greater threat to democracy than republicans are. this is why the truth matters. this is why the repetition of the truth, however it may seem homiletic, it may seem competitive, it may seem boring, it may seem preachy but there is a reason we need to keep pushing this. it is because president trump is very, very good at flipping these things around. as part of authoritarian playbook. it is about the audacity. it is about a big lie. we dealt with this in american history before. we dealt with this in european history before. but it is only dealt with if those who believe the truth, which is the opposite of what trump is saying there, continue to stand up and insist that as john adams said, facts are

stubborn things, it is simply the fact that president biden is defending american democracy , all of it imperfections and donald trump has self-evidently , with the evidence of our own eyes, again and again, attempted to undermine it and so if you were to stand with trunk because you think president biden is x, y, or z, be very cognitive of what you are doing. you're not just casting a vote for marginal tax rate, you are not just casting a vote for a particular policy. if you do this, you're casting a vote to undermine fundamental american institutions. and as president biden was saying, that is not a hyperbole. >> that is not hyperbole and it wouldn't just undermine american institutions, it would destroy american institutions. john meacham, thank you, as always for coming to this sunday show. coming up, in less than 48

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tomorrow, some americans will be celebrating memorial day at a cookout and others will gather to remember the brave men and women who gave their lives for this country. donald trump, the disgraced four times indicted on 88 counts former president will likely be surrounded by his lawyers, as they prepare for what could be the final week of his hush money and election interference trial in manhattan. on tuesday, the defense and the prosecution will make their

closing arguments, then on wednesday, judge juan rochon will give the 12 members of the jury, a jury of trump's peers, instructions on how to apply the law to the facts for them during their deliberations. to win a conviction or an acquittal on any of the 34 counts, there must be a unanimous verdict from the jury. but all it takes is one juror with reasonable doubt of a charge to hang the jury that leads to miss trial of that charge. who knows how long the jury will deliberate? all we do know is this, donald trump could become the first former american president to be convicted of a criminal offense. joining us now, catherine christian, former assistant district attorney in manhattan d.a.s office, and msnbc legal analyst, and former federal prosecutor for the doj and senior writer at politico magazine. welcome back to the sunday show, we are starting with you. tuesday is the last chance for

each side to make its case to the jury in your latest article you relay, and i'm quoting, in order to establish trump guilt on felony charges, prosecutors have to play all 12 of the jurors without a reasonable doubt that trump attempted to conceal another crime, such as the election loss. in the end, the case could rise or fall on that ostensibly narrow but essential and still hotly contested factual question, do you think the prosecution proved the answer to that narrow question? >> the real question is what the jurors want. i am not trying to evade the question but truly i think if i am on the jury i would have serious reservations about the state case, particularly in as much as it relies necessarily partly on cohen, who is someone who has, has lined for himself

and for others, also possibly lied on the stand. but i think the state has provided jurors with a couple of paths to conviction, including based on cohen and circumstantial evidence. i'm still seeing the other probably more likely than not to can secure a conviction. but i think a hung jury is a possibility. >> all charges or some charges? >> i would think all, just because the way i see it, it is more or less an all or nothing process proposition. personally, i would not be pursing each one but it is conceivable people could on this. >> and catherine, as part of the process is both sides weigh in on jury instructions and judge merchan then decide what those instructions are. one ruling in particular is curious. one that said that all the jurors don't have to agree on what unlawful means trump employed but they do have to agree that he did, in fact, use

some kind of unlawful means. how should we be reading that instruction? >> it is, you know, if you know anything about the conspiracy cases, there will be charges charged and the jury is defining well overactive they could be 55. and you don't pull in new york state court, there is no poll of the jury after other than jury number one. so that is not curious me. we don't know really what the jury charges are and i think that the judge wisely, and sorry members of the press, did not give an out to the press because he wants to make sure that those jury, the first time they hear this charge, is on tuesday. and if they are following their oath, they are not watching tv. i think the reason why it was released into the press because he wants to make sure that they hear for the first time on tuesday after the summations. >> i've got to get you on one thing, catherine.

all or nothing, they're not going to split the baby when it comes to these three or four charges. is there a possibility of a middle ground, do you think? do you agree? >> i agree, but i could see jurors saying the checks, there's no way he can get around. he signed all of these checks. with the ledger entries, the invoices, maybe he didn't know anything about that. that is the only thing i can see, that he is found guilty in every single check and the others are not. but i do sort of agree, really agree, not sort of, that if he is guilty it would be on all 34 counts. i would be shocked, shocked, shocked if there is an acquittal. i will be shocked if there is a hung jury. >> okay, give me something to look forward to. less than a minute, and this is to both of you, if trump is found guilty of any of these felony charges, this could include jail time.

just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. if convicted, should trump go to jail, catherine, you go first. cleaner matter what you feel about donald trump, this he felony falsified business records is not a jail case in new york. there's no prior convictions that involved looting millions of dollars from the company so i don't think he is found guilty, that judge merchan will give him a prison or jail sentence. >> i think catherine's analysis is spot on. the only wildcard is that trump has been so vocal about discrediting the criminal justice system, the judge attacking the prosecutors to that part of the sentencing process is ensuring there is respect for the law and promotes respect for the law. i think whether or not there needs to be prison time, limited just to make sure that that project does not go unpunished. >> minute that the judge could say, you know what? and you have been sent a bad

actor, i need to put you in jail to send a message. >> under the federal sentencing law, actually, promoting respect for the law is a statutorily required factor that judges have to consider i am sure catherine could talk in the new york court that i am sure that is something that is on display, too. >> this had to bring you back once we get a jury verdict to talk about. catherine christen, congress could work, thank you very much for coming back to the sunday show we are monday for tuesday, watch msnbc starting at 10:00 p.m. eastern for special coverage of closing argument in trump's new york terminal trial. then at 8:00 p.m. eastern, rachel maddow and team will break down the related in this case. that is on tuesday beginning at 10:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. up next, another state assault on reproductive rights. a dangerous controlled substance. plus, a major supreme court ruling on mifepristone is coming soon.

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ask your doctor about breztri. it has been inconsequential week for reproductive rights in the united states. on friday, louisiana's republican governor signed a bill that would add two abortion medications to the state list of controlled, dangerous substances. the bill makes possession of the abortion pills without a valid prescription or orders from a doctor a crime punishable by up to five years in prison. and in an interview with cbs pittsburgh affiliate, donald trump hinted that he might consider future restrictions on birth control. >> do you support any restrictions on a person's right to contraception? >> we are looking at that. i'm going to have a policy on that very shortly and i think it is something that you will find interesting. >> trump later posted on social media that he will never advocate for restrictive birth

control but democrats aren't buying that. immediately after trump's interview aired, chuck schumer announced that he will hold a senate vote next month on the right to contraception act, which would establish federal protection for all legal contraception. and moving on the horizon, our upcoming decisions on two abortion medications before the supreme court. one case is restricting access to the abortion pill, mifepristone and the other could determine what doctors in idaho are allowed to perform abortions on women in medical emergencies. those decisions are expected to be handed down in june. joining me now, many tim russert, president of productive freedom for all. thank you very much for coming to this sunday show. so let's talk about this new louisiana law, after the governor signed it, he posted a statement on x thing, quote, this bill protects women across louisiana.

does it? please no, i mean, this bill makes an already impossible, oppressive state for women and families worse, right? louisiana has one of the worst outcomes for maternal health already. one of the worst ecosystems of care and childcare in the country. and now they are going to try to lock women into the state and make it hard for them to leave the state, to make it hard for them to access medications, that they should legally be able to access and other states, despite louisiana's abortion ban. it is a wild case but i think you're going to see more of this as the abortion movement, as the abortion rights movement, reproductive freedom movement, you're going to see more and more extremist republicans trying to restrict access even further. >> let's talk about majority leader schumer's plan to hold a vote on federal protections of contraception, will the right to contraception act be the past

? >> we don't have, you know what ? let me take a step back, i'm just going to say probably not. but you know what? it see if republicans are being sincere. you have donald trump out there, i think you know what i think, but we have donald trump out there saying is not going to limit contraception. you have ted cruz and katie britt even talking about support for ivf. let's see what chuck schumer is doing is really smart. right now, we're going to call your bluff we're going to put it right to contraception vote and ivf bill on the floor. theoretically, they should have a shot at passing. >> yeah. we saw the immigration bill go down, voted against by people who actually negotiated that. >> that is a great example. it is so important for voters

to understand what we are dealing with, right? republican can go on fox news all day, they can talk about what they plan to do, where they stand, but ultimately we have to put them on the record and that is the brilliance of this move and that is why we are supportive and campaigning around these two bills. >> so as we all know, there are initiatives beyond the ballot all over the country in november, not all of these initiatives are the same, not all of them would in trying access to reproductive care. the aclu of south dakota says there stays proposed amendment, quote, runs the risk of establishing a right to abortion in name only. can you tell us what is going on here? >> yeah, i mean, look, i think that there is a lot of debate in the states about what can actually pass and what can be enforceable and what will actually provide relief to citizens. so as we dive into some of these battles on abortion access and state referendums, you are going to see a really smart and important debate about how to move forward with the ball. so one in every case, in every

state, we have a slightly different set of situations. i think it raises legitimate concerns. plea let me give you one more thing. the 35,000 foot level, because we have got what is happening in louisiana, we got the ballot initiatives in november, but we also know that conservative groups like project 2025 and what they are doing over there, that they had a laser focus on abortion, including a proposal to ban abortion medication nationwide using the comstock act, which is from, a 19th century law. is it possible that they could actually do that? >> yes, absolutely. >> it is a federal law. >> we already saw it in trump term one how much damage they were able to create without a lot of planning. they didn't think they're going to win now that the heritage foundation and all the orcs

came together. they know what they can do now. will get caught up in court? perhaps. will democrats be able to make an effort to repeal? they should. but the fact of the matter is, we have seen donald trump and magna extremist's over and over again in office, make good on their pledges to disregard the law and disregard the moors at the rest of us operate on in washington, d.c. so we should be terrified. we should be very worried and we should understand that donald trump saying he wouldn't sign a national abortion ban when this is the important part, doesn't actually mean much when his allies and cronies are going to put him back in office have already decided how they are going to do it without congress. >> enter the comstock act. thank you very much, as always, to coming for the sunday show. next, it is time to send off with my panel and the latest news of the week, including why donald trump mocked his audience last night

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the libertarian party should nominate trump for president of the united states. that's nice. that's nice. only if you want to win. only if you want to win. maybe you don't want to win. maybe you don't want to win. >> donald trump clearly didn't have a good night last night to return national convention. he had hoped his appearance would help drive up support of libertarian voters. instead, well, let me let one convention goer described how she feels about voting for trump. [ laughter ] >> eat my own foot out of a bear trap. i only vote libertarian. >> eat her foot out of a bear

trap. joining me now, msnbc political analyst and former chief communications adviser to former house speaker, paul ryan and press secretary, john weiner. and michael jr., democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college. thank you both very much for coming back to the sunday show. so, brendan, your reaction to trump and his libertarian convention visit. >> first of all it is funny. one of the funniest things over here about the trump operation this time around is that it is much more professional, they know what they are doing. this is obviously really bad staff work. i don't know who thought that going in there cold wasn't any kind of commitment that he was going to be our expectation that he was going to be treated well. but what is amazing about libertarian is the authority, somebody who professed his love

for authoritarianism over and over again. i don't know what he expected to happen there i am shocked that he put himself in that position. it didn't go very well, but he turned on the audience, usually in a pretty bad spot. >> yeah, what did you think? >> absolutely agree. it is interesting because one of the attendees said why would we support this guy who is working on taking away all of our rights? organize or decide that you want government and then you talk to libertarians, that is not a good thing. trying to scold them from the podium, not a good thing. it is some work ahead of time. and we would have -- so that we actually step into this. or at least no what he did. he is looking at what many of us are looking at, this is going to be one on the margins

and if he believes that he has some kind of coalition together, then maybe somebody on his staff thought that this was the right thing to do. >> i mean, if got someone say she would rather chew her foot off from a bear trap. i mean, a lot of work to do. let's turn our attention to the hush money interference trial in manhattan. listen to what trump attorney alina hoffa had to say about jury deliberations. >> i have worries about them going back to whatever friends might have trump derangement syndrome, forgetting all sense of reality and coming back and sitting in that box and saying, you know what? i've got to take one for the team and see. >> what is she talking about? >> take one for the dmc. but this is very clearly just

another effort to undermine the legitimacy of this trial. this has been going on all along and setting the stage for if he is found guilty, that this is somehow illegitimate. you know, there is a large percentage of the country, people watching that show will believe that, the this is all a set up and that none of this is real. look, i struggled to say that he is not guilty, it is going to have a dramatic impact on the race. it is shocking to say that somebody could be convicted of not be a major turning point in the election but buying stuff like that. >> what do you think, because i just, she is an attorney, the trial is not a campaign event. >> if you know what it is not, and you see that day in and day out, he turns into a campaign event because of whatever she says when she steps out of the courtroom. so it is never not campaign,

except when he is actually sitting. i do, i will call attention to this point, months ago there were a lot of folks that set alvin bragg was not up to the task. and he has been up to the task and then some. i am not an attorney but he has prosecuted, he has done a really strong job. in who knows, as we said, what the jury will decide. but if he is, an important point to note that there are individuals out there who have been targeted, who have been threatened. and they have proven themselves to be afraid to take on the job of holding donald trump accountable. >> again, i got to squeeze in two more pieces of sound. this one is for you, basil. listen to former congressman byron donalds and what he had to say about that rally, trump rally in the south bronx.

>> the rally in the bronx was amazing. you had a very diverse crowd, people from the bronx, puerto ricans, dominicans, black people, white people, all their supporting president trump because they have seen the disaster that is new york city. >> basil? >> so i am from the so i think, i take this very seriously. people have long campaigned in that county, in that borough, using it as a way to point fingers and say look at how terrible government is but i work for elected officials who have brought nonprofits together and community together to really build back that borough and in tandem with the amazing spirit of the people there. let me tell you something, what donald trump did was pandering in that courtroom. he didn't ring on any of the current elected officials, which suggest that he doesn't talk to any of those elected officials. and to state that kind of purpose was really, it's really disheartening.

especially when 80% are already voted for joe biden. so not sure what he did there except for just do something for the cameras but not really representative of the people that borough are. >> brennan, you're in luck, we are out of time. so i'm not going to get your reaction [ laughter ] to the south bronx rally. but seriously, we're out of time. brendan and basil, thank you so much very much for coming back to the sunday show. coming up, one of a handful of congressional districts nationwide that could determine which party controls the house. state representative janel joined me next. her race to flick oregon's fifth congressional district and become the state's first ever black member of the u.s. congress. stay with us.

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>> i will protect access to safe and legal abortion care. i will work to find solutions to the housing crisis. i will fight to bring good paying jobs home to oregon and support oregon. there is so much at stake this november in the past flipping the house, the majority runs right through our district. and i am ready. i am ready to be your champion. >> bynum is oregon's only black state lawmaker. and if she wins, she will make history as the state's first ever black member of congress. joining me now is democratic congressional candidate, oregon state representative, janel bynum. welcome to the sunday show. so first question i ask every person who is running for office, why are you running? why are you running for the u.s. house seat? >> i am a mother, i'm a small

business owner, i am a four term state legislator i'm really excited to bring a certain energy to this. i have worked really, really hard to bring back things for oregonians that they care about. reproductive health equity, housing, mental health supports, environmental legislation. all of these things are things that oregonians really, really care about. in great contrast, lori chavez- deremer, the sitting republican representative right now is one of those people i would describe as someone who has laid down with dogs and gotten up with fleas. she is fully invested at this point. she is a no good, do nothing congress. she hasn't been showing up in the district, she hasn't been bringing back the things that we need here. i am ready to move us forward, i am a four term elected state legislator, i am ready to move oregon's fifth district forward. >> four term, four term state

representative, you have won against chavez dreamer twice before in races in the state house. what makes you think that you will be able to what is your path. >> well, i have always run in purple districts. the number one, i have experience talking with democrats, talking with republicans and talking with nonaffiliated voters who some people call independence. i have experience in winning, like i said, beating lori chavez-deremer not once, but twice, ready to do it a third time. i understand that she won't do the work. that is the big difference. i came out in 2016 as a mom who really cared about education, the educational experience her students were receiving, professional experience, teachers and educators were having. care about the environment, i cared about making sure the

small businesses had a seat at the table. all those things, she was in our city's elected mayor and i beat her. i beat her and i beat her again. and so what we learned from that, number one, was that we had to make sure we understood the numbers because the numbers don't lie. when we turn out, when democrats turn out, what educated voters turned out, when voters who have never engaged before turnout, we know that my message wins over and over and over again. we also note that the house of representatives doesn't show up in the district very often, that is just rubberstamping the policies of a do-nothing congress. we know that that message doesn't win well. we know that when you do the work, when you meet people on their terms, when you understand what they need, and when you don't judge them, that is what wins elections and that is what they win in november. >> representative, 30 seconds left. if you do and, as i mentioned, this will be the third time you'd be the first black person to represent oregon in congress, what would that mean to you? clear voters want to know more

about me they can go to janel bynum.com. i have a record of winning. i have a record of serving my constituents. i have a record of serving in a way that is loving, that is focused, that is exact and to the point in terms of what oregonians need and i really excited to serve and i'm really excited to make our community proud. >> oregon state representative, janel biden, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. good luck on the campaign trail. >> janel bynum.com. for more of the sunday show when we come back after this break. break. ke prevagen? i don't have a problem with my memory." memory loss is, is not something that occurs overnight. i started noticing subtle lapses in memory. i want people to know that prevagen has worked for me. it's helped my memory. it's helped my cognitive qualities. give it a try. i want it to help you just like it has helped me.

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that will do it for me. i will be back saturday and sunday at 6:00 p.m. eastern. follows on x, instagram, tik tok, and threats. you can catch the lips of the show on youtube. you can also listen to every episode on our show as a podcast for free. just scan the qr cord you see right there on your screen. don't go anywhere, a marathon of encores kicks off with the exclusive interview with brittney griner next here on msnbc. thanks for watching. >> tonight on the reidout.