seize the awkward. it's totally worth it. that'll do it for me on this memorial day weekend. thank you so much for joining us today. we have a quick programming note about tomorrow. we'll be on the air from 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. eastern instead of in our normal time slot because of the holiday. we have a lot to cover, and we hope to see you there tomorrow. in the meantime, check us out on all the social media platforms. for now, stay right where you are because there's much more news coming up on msnbc. ♪♪ good morning. welcome to this memorial day edition of "morning joe." we're on tape this morning with some of our top recent conversations. we begin with our discussion

with former secretary of state hillary clinton who joined us to talk about the 2024 election and the threat that her 2016 opponent, donald trump, poses to the future of american democracy. how do people manage, especially people who really love this democracy, who take it seriously, who take the words you just said on our show very seriously, that you can't just sit back and let democracy come to you, that this is, every day, something we all must work on together, what do you say when people ask you about the former president, these trials, these delays, and the fear that they feel about the upcoming election? >> well, mika, i'm happy to go to therapy with you any time -- >> let's do it. >> clearly, the pressure and the stress on our system, our country, our constitution, our future is so intense. for those of us who understand

what's at stake -- and i don't mean that in a, you know, derogatory way to others -- >> no. >> but if you've been in this world as you and i have, you've studied it, watched it, it is a very difficult time right now. you know, justice delayed is justice denied. the people in our country, it looks as though, will most likely go to vote without knowing the outcome of these other very serious trials. the one that is going on now currently in new york is really about election interference. it is about trying to prevent the people of our country from having relevant information that may have influenced how they could have voted in 2016 or whether they would have voted. i think that the defendant, the former president, knew exactly what he was doing when he went to such great lengths to try to squash, bury, kill stories, pay

off people, because he understood the electoral significance of them. so i think that this is not, though, about the past, because the other cases are about election interference. he's practically promised us, if you listen to him at his rallies, you read his interview with "time" magazine, that if he doesn't like the way the election turns out, he is going to do something again to try to prevent the lawful winner from taking office. i mean, i was secretary of state, traveling around the world on behalf of our country, trying to persuade leaders to believe in democracy, to believe in the peaceful transfer of power, to accept election results, after appropriate challenges were made. you know, trump had all the time in the world to make those challenges, and he was shut down by courts. he was denied by republican as well as democratic election officials because there was no evidence. this is all about power, how to

get it, how to keep it, how not to give it up. that is so opposite of everything we believe or should believe in our country about how we are a nation of laws, not of men. they are men who try to put themselves above the law, try to hang on to power. the other point i would quickly make is that the supreme court is doing our country a grave disservice in not deciding the case about immunity. this is -- i read the excellent decision by the court of appeals, and the judges there, i think, covered every possible argument. what we heard when this case was tried before the supreme court, to my ear at least, were efforts to try to find loopholes, to try to create an opportunity for trump to have attempted to

overturn an election, to have carried out hundreds and hundreds of pages of very highly classified material for his own amusement, interest, trading. we don't know what. these are very serious charges against any american, but someone who has both been a president and wants to be a president again, that should cause any voter to think not twice but many, many times over about whether we should entrust our country to him. >> madam secretary, therapy session obviously officially over now. >> wait, wait, i need more. >> oh, do you need more. okay, well, we'll tell you at the end everything will be okay if americans do their job and get out and vote. madam secretary, you know, yesterday, we interviewed andrew ross sorkin who called to one of the founders of the silicon

valley revolution in the late '80s/early '90s, who said as much as we're talking about a.i., we're not talking about him enough. i feel the same about donald trump. we talk about him so much in the media, it is hard to do it. it gets nauseating after a while. at the same time, for some americans, they're not focusing in enough on a president who said he would be a dictator on day one, that he would terminate the constitution, that he would execute the chairman of the joint chief of staffs, that he would immediately jail reporters who he didn't like, that he would immediately find them guilty of treason, news organizations who didn't run the way he wanted them to run. we can go down the list. he'd terminate attorneys who

didn't jail those he wanted. some say i'm being dramatic but i don't think so. a column in 2007/2008, there was a scene around a lake in germany in 1937, how peaceful and how beautiful it was. everybody was going about their business. 1937, kids were playing. then he said, nobody saw it coming. nobody saw it. a year later, the world had changed. jews were being rounded up, slaughtered, executed. so we find ourselves in this sort of a dilemma. we seem to talk about him so much, and, yet, i don't know that people are really getting their arms around just what a threat a democracy, an american democracy, the american experiment, is facing right now. help us out with that if you will. >> you know, joe, i think you make a really important point. i mean, it's one thing to cover the circus, and the circus is

covered. i mean, people can't stop covering the circus. every utterance, every insult, every outrageous action or comment, it gets covered. the context is often missing. what does that really mean? i think it's imperative, especially for members of the press who understand, as you were just pointing out, the world has been here before. people did not take the kind of threats that we saw in the 1930s as seriously as they should, including american journalists. you know, people were taking it face value, that, oh, this can be controlled. he may have said some outrageous things, but, you know, the institutions will hold. a determined demagogue, unfortunately supported by members of his political party, other enablers, people who care more about a future tax cut than the sanctity of the constitution, are falling in line behind him.

they are trying to excuse some soft most outrageous things you just recited. i don't think the press has done enough to basically say, okay, the circus is here. you can watch the circus. but let's tell you what that means. let's talk to people who have a real understanding of how dictatorships evolve. let's look at the people he admires and what they've already done. you know, back in 2016, we didn't have interviews with him. we didn't have track record of four years in office. you know, there was a lot of speculation, and, you know, i understood that people wouldn't take what i said necessarily as dpos pearl about what i thought could happen. i get that. but, now, we know. we've seen him, and we've heard him. so we need to do a better job of making it absolutely clear that someone who says these things, you know, maybe he wouldn't jail all of his political opponents. one is one too many. maybe he wouldn't try to force

out a business, you know, the members of the press who didn't agree with him. one is one too many. we go down the line. maybe this would be our last election. because someone who will not accept the validity of an election is someone who doesn't believe in elections. he believes in his own power, his own right to power, and his demand that he be installed regardless of whether he gets the votes or not. we're back in just a moment with more of our discussion with former secretary of state hillary clinton. stay with us.

(♪♪) (♪♪) try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints. if you have wet amd, you never want to lose sight of the things you love. some things should stand the test of time. long lasting eylea hd could significantly improve your vision and can help you go up to 4 months between treatments. if you have an eye infection, eye pain or redness, or allergies to eylea hd, don't use. eye injections like eyla hd may cause eye infection,

separation of the retina, or rare but severe swelling of blood vessels in the eye. an increase in eye pressure has been seen. there's an uncommon risk of heart attack or stroke associated with blood clots. the most common side effects were blurred vision, cataract, corneal injury, and eye floaters. and there's still so much to see. if you are on eylea or a similar type of treatment, ask your retina specialist about eylea hd today, for the potential for fewer injections. welcome back to "morning joe." we pick up with our recent conversation with former secretary of state hillary clinton, where we discussed the war in the middle east and her message to disillusioned voters in 2024. >> everybody gets heated about israel and gaza. what i'm about to talk to you about happened before october 7th.

i'm going to talk about radicalism on college campuses. the sort of radicalism that has mainstream students getting propaganda, whether it's from their professors or whether it's from communist chinese government through tiktok, calling the president of the united states genocide joe. calling you and president clinton war criminals. actually stopping the naming of a building after madeleine albright because they claim, professors claim, some of the same professors that took part in the most radical elements of the protests over the past couple weeks, called madeleine albright a war criminal. and we're still waiting for the building for foreign service to be renamed after madeleine albright. the first secretary of state that's a woman, made history,

just like you made history, but you've got mainstream college students -- i know because i've talked to a lot of college students over the past year or two -- and they have this radicalized view of the middle east, a radical sized view of american public servants like yourself, madeleine albright, president clinton, joe biden. name republican presidents, as well. there's this radicalization, and i just want to know, first of all, it's distressing. what do we do about it? so public servants aren't taught that american leaders are war criminals and that joe biden is not genocide joe. quite the opposite. secondly, the stupidity of the slogans that ignore all the history since 1948.

about what the united states had tried to do, about what you tried to do, about what president clinton tried to do in bringing a two-state solution. i remember when you've talked about a two-state solution, and it was considered radical. they couldn't believe it. oh, my god, hillary clinton actually is talking about a two-state solution. she hates israel. now, that's been flipped to you're a war criminal. madeleine albright is a war criminal. bill clinton is a war criminal. joe biden. it is disgusting. i want you to tell us what needs to be done, what you would hope would be done, one. number two, how do we go madeleine albright's name on that building? because she's been slandered in death. she's been slandered in death, a public servant who escaped the holocaust, gave her entire life to the united states of america, and has been slandered in death by extremists -- i'm sorry -- funded by qatar. number three, i told you we were

moving past therapy session. >> yeah. >> number three, maybe this will get on youtube if the communist chinese will allow it to get on youtube. please, tell any students watching what president clinton and you put together in 2000 in the oslo accords. you gave the palestinians a pathway to peace, and they were scared to take it because they knew they would be slaughtered by hamas. >> wow. i don't know where to start, joe. >> go ahead! >> okay. well, you know, i want to make a couple of quick points because you raised, you know, things that need to be vented about. first of all, i have had many conversations, as you have had, with a lot of young people over the last many months now. and you're right, they don't know very much at all about the

history of the middle east or, frankly, about history in many areas of the world, including in our own country. but with respect to the middle east, they don't know that under the bringing together of the israelis and the palestinians, by my husband, the then israeli prime minister, ahood barack, the then head of the palestinian liberation, and then the palestinian authority, yasser arafat, an offer was made to the palestinians for a state on, you know, 96% of the existing territory occupied by the palestinians with 4% of israel to be given to reach 100% of the amount of territory that was hoped for. this offer was made. if yasser arafat had accepted it, there would have been a palestinian state now for about 24 years. it's one of the great tragedies

of history, that he was unable to say yes. you know, my husband had a book cop coming out later this year, joe, in which he talks about how arafat kept saying he intended to agree, he wanted to agree, but he was, as you rightly point out, pretty sure he'd be killed. sadat was killed by extremists when he made peace with israel. our dear friend was killed by a radical israeli when he was pursuing the two-state solution. so this is a very important piece of history to understand. if you're going to take any kind of position with respect to what's going on right now. 1948, but you could literally go back thousands of years. the important point i want to emphasize, though, is propaganda is not education.

propaganda, whether it is on tiktok or in the classroom, is the opposite of education. anybody who is teaching in a university or anyone who is putting content on social media should be held responsible for what they include and what they exclude. so much of what we're seeing, particularly on tiktok, about what's going on in the middle east, is woefully false, but it is also incredibly slanted, pro hamas, antianti-israel, and any it's not any place where anyone should go for information on complex matters like what is going on there. we have to do a much better job in trying to, number one, teach history at all levels. that's why i love our history. it is a part of history we didn't all study and learn about. it's also important that we recognize the propaganda value

of social media. people are on social media oftentimes to press a financial, political, partisan agenda, so, of course, you don't get the facts. of course you don't get any context. we have to do a better job ourselves and certainly with young people in trying to help them understand how to filter and interpret the information they're giving. i think we also need to do a better job in our classrooms, particularly at the college and university level, not to fall into, you know, easy absolutes. you're either this or you're that. you're for it or against. life is too complicated. history certainly is. i agree we've got to do something to, you know, stand against a lot of these false narratives. with respect to my dear friend madeleine albright, she deserves to have anything and everything named for her. >> yes. >> she lived the 20th century.

she fled first from the nazis, and then after returning to what was czechoslovakia, she fleed the communists. she demonstrates what a great refuge america has been for people seeking freedom. heaven forbid, if we don't protect this democracy, this constitution, our institutions, against demagogue, wanna be authoritarian leaders, shame on us. let's not forget people who helped us get to where we are and where i hope we will always be here in this country. madeleine albright was certainly one of those whom i admire greatly. >> well said. in our remaining moments, secretary clinton, you laid out the stakes of this election here this morning in our conversation. you have a massive following

among democrats, among swing voters, among progressives. what would you say to those who are disillusioned, saying joe biden is too old, we need new leadership? i'll look at rfk jr. who is polling right now in the double digits. they don't like what's happening in gaza and how joe biden handled the relationship with israel. what would be your message to the skeptical or disillusioned voters who say, i'll look somewhere else or might stay home this fall? >> please look at the whole picture. also, think about yourself. think about the future you want, the country you want to live in, whether you value freedom or whether you want to give it up to people who want to change the way that america has tried to work and our values that we've tried to aspire to and fulfill. you know, when people ask me about the biden/trump race, my answer is very clear. we have two old candidates.

one is, yes, old and effective, has passed legislation that i think is going to put america on such a strong footing for the future, is compassionate, cares about people, tries hard to make the right decision, and there are complicated. the other is old and dangerous. i mean, why is that a hard choice for people? i think every one of us has an obligation as a citizen to try to figure out, waking up the morning after the election, do i want to throw my vote away? do i want to not vote and let somebody who doesn't agree with me or care about me essentially fill that vacuum that i left? or do i want to feel like, okay, maybe i'm not ecstatic about the outcome, but i'm safe. i'm not going to have to worry about what might happen to the economy because we've got somebody who took us out of covid, has tackled inflation,

the best economy in the world right now. let's not mess with that. there's just so much. you know, i think it is also important to say that as hakeem jeffries, who is the majority leader in the house, said the other day, and i think he's done an amazing statesmanlike job, he said, "you know, if you can overturn roe v. wade, you can overturn social security and medicare and medicaid." a lot of things that many, many americans not only take for granted but really rely on. i think the future is at stake not just in a big, abstract way, but in everyone's life and family. coming up, we'll speak with anne applebaum about the propaganda war being waged to discredit liberalism and freedom around the world. we'll be right back. we'll be ri.

generalized myasthenia gravis made my life a lot harder.

but the picture started changing when i started on vyvgart. ♪♪ vyvgart is for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are anti-achr antibody positive. in a clinical trial, vyvgart significantly improved most participants' ability to do daily activities when added to their current gmg treatment. ♪♪ most participants taking vyvgart also had less muscle weakness. and your vyvgart treatment schedule is designed just for you. in a clinical study, the most common side effects included urinary and respiratory tract infections, and headache. vyvgart may increase the risk of infection. tell your doctor if you have a history of infections or symptoms of an infection. vyvgart can cause allergic reactions. available as vyvgart for iv infusion and also as vyvgart hytrulo for subcutaneous injection. additional side effects for vyvgart hytrulo may include injection site reactions. talk to your neurologist about vyvgart. switch to shopify and sell smarter at every stage of

your business. take full control of your brand with your own custom store. scale faster with tools that let you manage every sale from every channel. and sell more with the best converting checkout on the planet. a lot more. take your business to the next stage when you switch to shopify.

- [narrator] this is my coffee shop. we just moved into a bigger space, brought on another employee, and ordered new branded gear for the team. it was so easy. i just chose my products, added our logo, and placed my order. bring your own team together with custom gear. get started today at customink.com. welcome back to "morning joe." we recently spoke to "the

atlantic's" anne applebaum about her growing movement around the world to undermine liberalism and democracy. take a look. >> we haven't had a chance to talk to you since the "time" interview, but in the "time" interview, again, just, again, it reads like it is straight out of twilight of democracy. your warnings about what happened in poland, what happened in hungary, putin's russia. in the "time" magazine article, of course, donald trump is talking about firing u.s. attorneys that do not prosecute, arrest and prosecute his political enemies, enemies in the press, enemies in the judicial system. we have donald trump talking about states monitoring, that it is okay for states to monitor women's pregnancies. do down the list.

as you read that, were you surprised that he would admit what he is going to do, or do you suspect that he's just trying to let americans know, if you elect me, we're moving beyond democracy and will look more like orban's hungary than madison's america? >> this also connects to the topic of my "atlantic" cover story. so for some years now, there's been a part of the american right, helped by some other foreign actors, who have been pushing the idea that autocracy is stable and safe and democracy is chaotic and destructive, degenerate, and, therefore, we need a different kind of political system in america or we need a different kind of -- different kinds of people running it. you know, what trump is doing is playing into an existing sentiment, one that has been built up and created for many years. so the idea that, you know, his

presidency would be stable, more prosperous, you know, isbroader decline of democracy and the rise of autocracy. >> for you, looking back, when did that start? when did that begin? you say it's been happening in the republican party. when did the party, my former party, start moving that direction? >> i mean, i think, you know, different things happen at different times. you know, it became clear to me during the 2016 campaign that something odd was happening. even, for example, trump during that campaign, you know, using and repeating russian-invented conspiracy theories. there was one about obama creating isis and hillary starting world war iii and, you know, attempting to show that the democratic party, in this case, was chaotic and destructive. remember his language about, "only i can help you. only i can save you."

there was already autocratic language that was beginning to appeal to people. i think he sensed it and saw it coming. >> yeah. let me read from your extremely powerful piece. it's the cover story in "the atlantic." you write in part this, "the new authoritarians also have a different attitude toward reality. they lie constantly, blatantly, obviously, but they don't bother to offer counterarguments when their lies are exposed. after russian-controlled forces shot down malaysia airlines flight mh17 over ukraine in 2014, the russian government reacted not only with a denial, but with multiple stories, plausible and implausible. it blamed the ukrainian army and the cia and a nefarious plot that dead people were put on a plane. this tactic, the so-called fire hose of falsehoods, ultimately

produces not outrage but nihilism. fear, cynicism, nihilism and apathy, coupled with disgust and disdain for democracy, this is the formula that modern autocrats, with some variations, sell to their citizens and to foreigners, all with the aim of destroying what they call american hegemony." joe, i think donald trump will drag out picking his vp because he has these people stepping up and jumping into his lies and holding on to them tight. >> right. >> developing a little system for him, among many others. the question is, as anne lays out how this happens, how does america pull back from self-destructing? >> anne, you're just so perfect to talk about this. >> yeah. >> because you understand poland, what has been happening in poland over the past several years. you actually had the law and

justice party completely controlling so many levers of power there going into the election. they fought they were going to win the election. others thought they were going to win the election because they did control those levers. but they lost. they ended up -- donald tusk ended up winning. i'm just curious, what lessons can america learn from that, and how do you combat this fire hose of falsehoods? i remember reading in "the new yorker" back at the beginning of donald trump's presidency the diaries of a man who saw the rise of hitler. one of the things that he talked about was just the fire hose of falsehoods, how confounding it was to keep up with what the truth was, what the truth wasn't, and, eventually, people just gave up. how do we not give up in trying to discern what the truth is, and how do we overcome this?

>> so it's really interesting that you talk about poland, where we did have a very similar kind of government, one that lied repeatedly, that sought to manipulate the media, but also sought to take control of all the institutions of the state. so much so, nobody really believed anybody could ever beat them in an election again. we're not in that position here in the u.s. we're in the opposite position. we don't have that kind of government yet, although, of course, we could. the absolutely in the end was to look for other ways of contacting people. there was an enormous grassroots campaign in which the opposition party sought to reach people where they were. visited small towns, rural areas in huge numbers, partly as a way of showing up in real life to contradict the fake messages. i mean, that's not as easy to do in the united states.

we're a much bigger country, and i don't think joe biden can visit every major city in america in the next six months. but he could certainly get surrogates to do it. he could get others to do it. certainly, finding ways to reach people who are apathetic, who, as i wrote, are nihilistic, who look at all of this stuff in politics and say, it's so confusing and contradictory, i want nothing to do with it, and reminding them what elections are for, why we engage in them, why our country is important, why our future is important, getting them to talk and think about the future. i mean, that's really the task for the next six months. >> the autocracy is on the global stage. xi jinping touched down in france, meeting with president macron there. this will begin his european tour. also has stops in serbia and hungary, not quite the liberal democracies the rest of western europe is. talk to us about this moment on the global stage as it comes

just days after u.s. intelligence says that while china is still not providing lethal aid to russia, they've been supplying equipment to help the military stay afloat, despite the damages it took in ukraine. >> certainly, china -- and this is one of the new elements that i talk about in the cover story. china now very much sees itself in league with russia and in league with other autocracies, and works with them and sees them as having a common cause. these are countries that have nothing in common idealogical. communist china, nationalist russia, theoretical iran. they don't share an ideology. there is no a secret room where they sit around and plan things together, but they do now see themselves engaged in a common process. the common process is their desire to undermine us. in other words, to undermine the narrative of democracy. again, as i said, to describe

democracy as degenerate, as divided, as chaotic, to show themselves as the only real alternative. the chinese have built an enormous network of media in africa as well as asia and latin america, all over the world, in order to push those arguments and push those stories. they're looking for allies. looking for allies in hungary and serbia. the trip to france has a different purpose. xi jinping is hoping to break france off or break europe off from america. i don't think at this point he'll succeed, but he certainly has -- you know, there is a deep iranian/chinese connection. there is a deep venezuelan/chinese connection. china has deep, important relationships with places like zimbabwe, you know, countries that are -- that use and share the similar kind of narrative. they see themselves as being a kind of vanguard. you know, we're going to make the world safe for autocracy. we'll change how the world is

run. we're going to eliminate human rights and discussions of freedom from the global stage. instead, we're going to change the focus and use words like sovereignty. when the chinese use it, it means we get to decide what we do. we don't want to hear any criticism from anyone else. coming up, harvard professor henry lewis gates jr. joins us to discuss his recent book which goes through the cultural contributions from black american writers. "morning joe" will be right back. re's plenty of space. i've even got an extra seat. wait! no, no, no, no, no. [ gasps ] [ indistinct chatter ] [ sigh ] let's just wait them out. the volkswagen atlas with three rows of seating for seven. everyone wants a ride. [ snoring ] ok, get in. [ speaking minionese ] yippee! and see "despicable me 4" in theaters july 3rd. rated pg. i have active psoriatic arthritis. but with skyrizi

to treat my skin and joints, count me in. along with clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement. and that means everything! ask your doctor about skyrizi today. learn how abbvie could help you save. (fisher investments) at fisher investments we may ask your doctor about skyrizi today. look like other money managers, but we're different. (other money manager) how so? (fisher investments) we're a fiduciary, obligated to act in our client'' best interest. (fisher investments) so we don't sell any commission-based products. (other money manager) then how do you make money? (fisher investments) we have a simple management fee, structured so we do better when our clients do better. (other money manager) your clients really come first then, huh? (fisher investments) yes. we make them a top priority, by getting to know their finances, family, health, lifestyle and more. (other money manager) wow, maybe we are different. (fisher investments) at fisher investments, we're clearly different. have heart failure with unresolved symptoms?

it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat could mean something more serious, called attr-cm a rare, underdiagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist and ask about attr-cm. shop etsy until june 16th and get up to 30% off

father's day gifts that go beyond the classic go-to. sound like you? save on personalized gear, and other things dads dig. when you want a one-of-a-kind gift to show him he's #1. etsy has it. ♪♪ sandals jamaica sale is now on! with rates from $199 per person per night. visit sandals.com or call 1-800-sandals

ow! uh oh. you, ok? no... i mean yeah. -just hit my melon. -yikes! should we see a doctor? i can't tell a doctor i slipped on a toy. i'm a triathlete! i had a concussion. most happen doing ordinary things. sometimes the tough thing to do is to get help to prevent serious damage. i like your sensitive side. don't mess with your melon. if you hit it, get it checked.

aaron c. burton, head of house, born in arkansas, occupation, school superintendent. grammar school, salary, $350. wife, age 28. pearl b. burton, father. negro aged 60. birthplace, arkansas. occupation, school superintendent, junior high. >> so you met your great

grandfather. >> pearl. >> yeah, pearl b. burton. >> he and your grandfather worked in education. >> both school superintendents. >> both father and son school superintendents. >> one for grammar school and another for the junior high school. >> how does that make you feel? >> fills me with great pride that i have inherited this mantle of educator. >> yeah. >> really, honestly. >> you come from educators on both sides. >> that's very cool. i'm very proud of that. >> this is really cool. that was a clip from the pbs series "finding your roots," which is amazing. host henry lewis gates jr. helps actor levar burton learn about his family's incredible contributions to its community, which had been lost to history. that rediscovery of african-american history and

culture is a theme in his book entitled "the black box, writing the race." "the new york times" best selling author joins us now. also, the director for african-american research at harvard university. professor, in explaining the title of the book, you write in part this, "we know all too well what the search for the black box, the flight recorder, sadly signifies in the event of a crash. that device preserves a record of the truth amid disastrous circumstances. it is what survives. the black box, in other words, is something whose internal works we can't know about, but whose output we can see, touch, hear, feel, or see. while we can determine inputs, and while we can measure outputs, we can have no way to determine how these outputs are produced. i find this metaphor a useful

analytical tool for thinking about both the nature of the discursive world that people of african descent have created in this country, and how this very world has been seen and not seen from outside of it by people unable to fathom its workings inside." so with that, i ask you to open the black box and tell us what you're able to reveal. >> well, when i was an undergraduate at yale, our campus was full of idealogical bullies. someone trying to tell you how to be black. that there was only one way to be black. the black muslims, the black panthers, the black cultural nationalists. i swore that if i grew up and was ever in a position of power, to let students know that this was crap. that our people have been as diverse idealogically, religiously, ethically, as any other people, then i would do it.

"the black box" is composed of the lectures i gave for 20 years in my introduction to african-american studies class at harvard. it was structured around all the debates black people have had since the day we got off the boat in virginia in 1619, about how the hell to get out of here. because i wanted them to show there never was one way to be black. the last sentence of my last lecture in class is, if there are 47 million african-americans, there are 47 million ways to be black. never let anyone bully you and tell you there is only one way to be black. >> you know, it reminds me, my oldest son sent me, and all my kids, said, you need to see "american fiction." >> uh-huh. >> the clip looks hilarious. i have to see it. it looks like a movie about how

white people see black people and what they expect from black people to sort of align with their own prejudice. >> precisely. when we got off the boats, we were dumped in the black box. a world apart, a world separated, w.e.b. du bois famously said from the white world by a veil. they could not see us, but we could see them. what they did in that box is dump all the stereotypes, fantasies, paranoid assertions, accusing us of being subhuman, not being equal, being by nature, biology, created by god to be slaves. we had to fight with those stereotypes, as al knows. that's what the black is beautiful movement was about in the '60s. trying to shed all of the ways

that the systems of racism made us hate ourselves. our color, our hair texture, our features. so we grew afros. you know, we maybe went a bit overboard. >> al, you had an afro, right? >> he did, oh, my gosh. >> come on now, we all remember. >> even i had an afro. i tell my students because they can't believe it. >> i had a jew-fro. >> dr. gates, let me say this. part of what probably united a lot of us was that we all faced common racism, but it deceived a lot of the public, feeling we weren't diverse. >> right. >> i think that's that's something you, i, every black in america had to deal with. i think that going to what you do with the black box, going back to the roots, talk about how important this displacement is when we find out who we are connected to.

i was telling you, when somebody just went back two generations and i want to go back more than that in my life, i find out my great grandfather was owned by a guy named alexander sharpton, who carried the aunt of thurmond, the segregationist, and i was named after him. we were named after our owners. sharpton. i don't know my name. i know the name of the man who owned my great grandfather. it's the struggle against whether you are henry lewis gates, barack obama, al sharpton, we had the same discrimination, and we were never differentiated between what our different styles or cultural habits or whatever. >> all you have to do is go to a black barbershop or black beauty parlor to see how diverse the black community is. >> correct. >> the black community is essentially conservative on a lot of issues, as any minister knows. >> absolutely. >> right. >>paal sex, abortion. we're radical when it comes to

racism. that's where the stereotype of us all being on the left came from. when you talk about ancestry, every black person whose ancestry i've ever traced swear they have native american. great great grandfather has high cheekbones and straight black hair. when we do their dna, guess what is this they have 0.8% native american ancestry and 24% ancestry. the dna companies virtually never tested a black person who was 100%. isn't that amazing? that is one of the biggest surprises in all the time i've been doing "finding your roots." we'll be right back with much more of this memorial day edition of "morning joe."

i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased

risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save.

with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles. mountain climbing tina at a cabin. or tree climbing tina at a beach resort. nice! booking.com booking.yeah. at bombas, we're obsessed with socks. tees. and underwear. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order. i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein! those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar,

25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. (♪♪) welcome back. happy memorial day. we're on tape with our best, recent discussions. earlier this year, i sat down with dr. jill biden at the white house for an exclusive, one-on-one interview. we discussed the state of president joe biden's re-election campaign, her priorities as first lady, and the attacks against hunter biden and her family. >> you've been married to president joe biden for 46 years. there have been senate races, three presidential campaigns, eight years of your husband serving as vice president. >> mm-hmm. >> unthinkable personal loss and challenge. now, democracy is on the ballot. what do you think when you hear that people say, well, i just can't vote for joe biden this

election? what is it they may not know about him at this point, especially when the alternative seems to want to change this nation so radically? >> well, you know, mika, when i was dating joe, one of the things that drew me to him was his strength. and i -- at that point, he'd been through the death of his wife and baby daughter in a car accident. then, you know, later, we experienced the death of our son to cancer. throughout all of this, you know, i saw joe as steady and calm and resilient. and, actually, i -- when we got here, i felt that he knew how to rebuild this country because he had rebuilt our family out of tragedy. and i think what people don't see is how hard joe works every

single day. that he gets up thinking what he can do for the american people. and he does that -- you know, his job doesn't end when we just have dinner together at 7:00. he's on the phone. he's on the phone with leaders of foreign countries. he's on the phone with his cabinet. or he's on the phone with somebody who has lost their home because of a tornado or going through some personal problem. so i see that strength and that resilience and that steadiness every single day. >> wow. >> and he's unflappable. when i look at the man, you know, his integrity, his character, has not changed, and he's unwavering. he is unflappable. >> yet another presidential campaign. this would be, what, your fourth? >> oh, yeah, fourth. >> is it? >> 14th campaign.

>> exactly. potentially another four years in the white house. >> yes. >> with everything you do here, does yet another one give you any pause, thinking of, like, the personal health and well-being for both of you, the division in this country, the cruelty of maga republicans against your family? does any part of you once in a while think, uh, maybe we bow out? >> you know, that's why i want to go through yet another campaign. because i think, as joe says, democracy, our freedoms, are what's on the line. and so americans have a choice. you know, they can have strong, steady leadership, someone fighting for democracy, or they can choose chaos and division. >> so what do you see as your role as first lady now as opposed to a possible second term? any changes you would make? i know you have a big policy platform now. >> well, when we came into office, i knew that i wanted to work on what i've always worked on, military families.

>> yeah. >> cancer and education. now, i have a new initiative, which is the women's health research initiative. because women have been -- women's health has been underfunded always, and we need to have fairness in the amount of money that goes toward research and studying women's diseases. because, you know, women are living so much longer with chronic diseases. that has to change. i took that to joe, and he said yes and signed the executive order. >> amazing. >> we're on our way. >> how have you been coping personally with the onslaught of accusations against your husband and your family, including and especially hunter as the focus of a house oversight committee hearing, holding him in contempt, obsessing over him, showing pictures of him during vulnerable moments in his battle with addiction. >> horrible. >> on the floor of the house.

this would crush any family. >> mika, i think what they are doing to hunter is cruel. and i'm really proud of how hunter has rebuilt his life after addiction. you know, i love my son. it's had -- it's hurt my grandchildren. that's what i'm so concerned about, that it islives, as well >> what do you think when trump republicans call you the biden crime family -- [ laughter ] one congresswoman, marjorie taylor greene, he sold out america. he is a liar. mentally incompetent. let's not even talk about what "let's go brandon" means, but you have u.s. senators holding signs that say that. >> hard to recognize our country. to look at what we used to have and what the other side, the extremists have turned this country into. i mean, we would never see

things like that, say, ten years ago. >> this has got to be so different than any races that you and -- >> it is. >> -- your husband have run. >> yeah. >> a little scary. >> it is a little scary, but i think it is not just for me and for joe, but just to see what happened. i mean, look at the insurrection that took place. i mean, it's just so hard to believe that the united states of america witnessed an insurrection. i think americans were just stunned by that. >> i guess they're being called by the frontrunner, republican frontrunner, hostages, those -- >> or patriots, you know. he doesn't call them what they were, insurrectionists. dangerous extremists. >> and you still want to be in the fight? >> oh, that makes me want to be

in the fight even more. because we have to win. we must win. we cannot let go of our democracy. >> and if you don't? >> i don't know. >> can't even think about it? >> no, i can't think about it. >> there are two hot wars on the world stage that your husband is managing. there is the threat of another trump presidency, which we just talked about. he is a man indicted four times. he's doubling down on the conspiracy theories, flouting the rule of law. many would say that literally everything is on the line. i think you just said that. >> mm-hmm. >> this is a massive amount of physical and emotional stress. it would be on any person. your husband is 81. at the end of a second term, he'd be 86. as his life partner of 46 years, is there a part of you that is worried about his age and health? can he do it? >> he can do it.

and i see joe every day. i see him out, you know, traveling around this country. i see his vigor. i see his energy. i see his passion. every single day. >> so to those who say, i can't vote for joe biden, he is too old, what do you say? >> i say his age is an asset. >> he's wise. >> yes, he is wise. he has wisdom, has experience. he knows every leader on the world stage. he's lived history. he knows history. he's thoughtful in his decisions. he is the right man -- or the right person for the job at this moment in history. >> so democracy is on the ballot, and also something has been lost in this last four years or during your husband's presidency as a result of the trump presidency, and that is a woman's right to choose.

>> yes. >> women's health care. how important do you think that should be in a factor for all americans who are voting in the next election? it feels like we've slid back. i mean, i can't believe my daughters -- >> that's why we have to keep fighting. we're going -- and what joe wants to do is to codify roe. that's what we have to do. we have to keep fighting. >> are you ever hopeless? do you ever lose hope? >> no, no. i'm never hopeless. >> so what do you say to people who are really scared right now? >> i would say that things are going to get better. you know, we have to continue the fight. that's what we plan to do. >> what does make you hopeful for this country? >> you know, i feel, as i travel around this country, the people i meet, the teachers, the nurses, you know, the moms, we

all want the same thing. we all want a good life for our families. and, you know, what brings -- we have more in common as americans than our differences. i think that that's what makes me hopeful, and that's what makes me want to continue on to fight for them. coming up, our discussion with princeton professor eddie glaude jr. about his new book entitled "we are the leaders we have been looking for." that's straight ahead on "morning joe."

(vo) you might be used to living with your albuterol asthma rescue inhaler, but it's a bit of a dinosaur, because it only treats your symptoms, not inflammation. treating both symptoms and inflammation with rescue is supported by asthma experts. finally, there's a modern way to treat symptoms and asthma attacks. airsupra is the first ever dual-action rescue inhaler that treats your asthma symptoms and helps prevent attacks. airsupra is the only rescue fda-approved to do both. airsupra is an as-needed rescue inhaler and should not be used as a maintenance treatment for asthma. get medical help right away if your breathing does not improve, continues to worsen, or for serious allergic reactions. using airsupra more than prescribed could be life threatening. serious side effects include heart problems, increased risk of thrush or infections. welcome to the modern age of dual-action asthma rescue.

ask your doctor if airsupra is right for you. why choose a sleep number smart bed? can it keep me warm when i'm cold? wait, no, i'm always hot. sleep number does that. now, save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add any base shop now at sleepnumber.com a perfect day for a family outing! shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. only shingrix is proven over 90% effective. shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache,

shivering, fever, and upset stomach. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingrix today. ♪ limu emu... ♪ and doug. (bell ringing) limu, someone needs to customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. let's fly! (inaudible sounds) chief! doug. (inaudible sounds) ooooo ah. (elevator doors opening) (inaudible sounds) i thought you were right behind me. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪

no matter what you're up against, we have your back. we are united way. we are neighbors helping neighbors in communities around the when disaster strikes we get you back on your feet. we help children build brighter. we've been here for over 135 s but now our work is more . join us. join your neighbors. join united way. ♪ ow! whoa! watch where you're going. yeah mom, pay attention. what if it's a concussion? hang on, i'll look it up. uh... i'm probably fine... probably? we noticed something wasn't right and got her to a doctor. i thought i was okay, but i had a concussion. sometimes, it's hard to tell on your own.

don't mess with your melon. if you hit it, get it checked. welcome back to "morning joe." recently, we were joined by princeton professor eddie glaude jr. to discuss miss book and the lessons we can learn from the great civil rights leaders of the 20th century. >> "we are the leaders we have been looking for." eddie looks back at a series of lectures he delivered at harvard over a decade ago that focused on martin luther king jr., malcolm x, and ella baker. eddie explores the question the trio posed, how to fight for justice in a post civil-rights era and in today's political ply climate. quote, "at the heart of the book is almost a cliche, if we are going to be the leaders we are looking for, we have to become better people." eddie, congratulations on the book. we've been anticipated this for a long time. it is here today. people can go pick it up today.

what did you set out to do? i set the table a little bit, but specifically with this book, what did you want to say? >> really, i think we've outsourced, willie, our responsibility for democracy for too long. we've outsourced it to politicians, so-called prophets and heros, and we've given over our responsibility, our power. what i wanted to do, the title actually comes from ms. ella baker. ms. baker used to say, a strong people doesn't need strong leaders. she wanted us to involve ourselves or engage in politics in such a way that everyday, ordinary people, right, involved in the fray, would be involved in their lives. i'm trying to figure out my relationship to this tradition that made me who i am. what does it mean to be a gen-xer born in the shadow of the '60s. i think that's the greatest generation, in my mind.

what does it mean torre born in the shadow and find my own voice? what is my relationship to dr. king? what is my relationship to malcolm x? how can i find my signature voice without engaging in supplication to them? so these lectures are an attempt, in some ways, to call people to take responsibility for now, to take responsibility for future. >> eddie, you focused on king, malcolm, and ella baker, they did not start out to be leaders. they became that because of activism. dr. king left boston university and went to montgomery to pass the southern church and ran into the situation with rosa parks. he didn't play rosa parks and plan to do what we did. ella baker doing the work in mississippi. malcolm x finding himself after being a convict. i was raised by some of the king men, mentored by then. jesse jackson was a student leader that emerged in this era. i think the critical part of

your book of "we are the leaders that we've been looking for" is that's how the leaders we look up to became the leaders. >> oftentimes, what happens with prophets and heros, they become larger than life, doc. >> yeah. >> we think that they have qualities that are beyond us. so then what we do is we follow them. when we follow them, we give up the hard work of working on ourselves. we don't see, joe, that king exhibited a courage that's in me. that this person revealed character that i'm capable of demonstrating in my own life. instead, we have this nostalgic longer. if only we had fdr today. if only we had dr. king today. no, we need you. part of the challenge is to rid ourselves from engaging in sup supplecation, from being fans in the pews to pastors.

this is a radical call for everyday, ordinary people to take control of this democracy and to disrupt a style of leadership in which we give over our power to folk. to understand that we, in fact, have the power. >> and we expect too much from them. once we exalt them, you know, like dr. king didn't say, i wish thurgood marshall was in montgomery. he did it. abernathy did it. then we look for this flaws. oh, i made you this great image, and i found out you don't wash your feet that well. i mean, we look to break down people rather than lift ourselves up. >> absolutely. >> eddie, this conversation, especially what you two were talking about, what happened to us? why have so many americans lost the memory of what this country was and still is and ignore what the country still is? >> you know, it is a really important point. i think, and i'm following the story of richard slotkin, who has a new book coming out, he

says we're in a second lost cause. we're in the midst of a second redemption. what was distinctive about the lost cause and redemption wasn't the violence of koufax, louisiana, and where there was a coup over the governments, it was also, mike, an assault on what we knew, how we remembered reconstruction, how we remembered the past. what's so interesting about it, when i look at what's going to happen to the kids in florida, in texas, all these places where they're not going to be taught the full scope of our history, i get angry about my black and brown children having to learn that, but i'm more angry about what will happen to white children. you know what? those kids who were taught in the first lost cause, they turned out to be the adults in montgomery. they were the adults in mississippi. they were the adults in louisiana. the folks who actually engaged in the violence of the second reconstruction. i think part of what we're dealing with is what frederick

douglass called, joe, the horrible reptile in the nation's bosom. we must tear it away, and we have refused to tear away the serpent and it is eating the nation's entrails. coming up, pulitzer prize winning historian doris kearns goodwin and her new book, "an unfinished love story" about her late husband. "morning joe" will be right back. back ( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. (♪♪) i'm getting vaccinated with pfizer's pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine.

so am i. because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. come on. i already got a pneumonia vaccine, but i'm asking about the added protection of prevnar 20®. if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes, copd, or heart disease, or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. prevnar 20® is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. in just one dose. don't get prevnar 20® if you've had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. adults with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects were pain and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, fatigue, headache, and joint pain. i want to be able to keep my plans. i don't want to risk ending up in the hospital with pneumococcal pneumonia. that's why i chose prevnar 20®. ask your doctor or pharmacist about the pfizer vaccine for pneumococcal pneumonia.

today, at america's beverage companies,... ...our bottles might still look the same... ...but they can be remade in a whole new way.

thanks to you... we're getting bottles back... and we've developed a way to make new ones from 100% recycled plastic. new bottles - made using no new plastic. you'll be seeing more of these bottles in more places. and when we get more of them back... ...we can use less new plastic. see how our bottles are made to be remade. i've struggled with generalized myasthenia gravis. but the picture started changing when i started on vyvgart. ♪♪ vyvgart is for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are anti-achr antibody positive. ♪♪ in a clinical trial, vyvgart significantly improved most participants' ability to do daily activities when added to their current gmg treatment. most participants taking vyvgart also had less muscle weakness. and your vyvgart treatment schedule is designed just for you. in a clinical study, the most common side effects included urinary and respiratory tract infections, and headache.

vyvgart may increase the risk of infection. tell your doctor if you have a history of infections or symptoms of an infection. vyvgart can cause allergic reactions. available as vyvgart for iv infusion and also as vyvgart hytrulo for subcutaneous injection. additional side effects for vyvgart hytrulo may include injection site reactions. talk to your neurologist about vyvgart. ♪♪

who is this? >> secretary rask with dick goodwin. goodwin came three years ago. he was law clerk. he had a brilliant record at harvard law school and has been working as an assistant. he's been particularly concerned with latin america, which has been a matter of special interest to us. therefore, our program in latin america and its implementation now have fallen into ddick goodwin's hands. >> works on the messages. >> he works on the messages, that's right. >> president john f. kennedy speaking to nbc news in 1961 about a young staffer named dick goodwin. joining us now, author, presidential historian, doris kearns goodwin. her book is entitled "an unfinished love story, 1960s," part memoir, part biography of her and her late husband, dick goodwin. you've written a lot of books. this is special for all the

obvious reasons. boxes and boxes dick had from his years serving under kennedy. how did you approach this differently than the other biographies? >> he saved 300 boxes that were a time capsule in the '60s. he not only worked for john kennedy, he worked with jackie kennedy, for lbj as the chief speechwriter. he was with senator mccarthy in new hampshire, bobby kennedy when he died. he is everywhere there, but he wouldn't open the boxes. it made me so upset because i knew there was great stuff in them. he was sad about how the decade ended. martin luther king jr. killed. he was with bobby kennedy when he died. the riots in the streets, the violence, the anti-war movement. finally, he turns 80 and comes down the stairs, it's time. it's now or ever. if i have wisdom to dispense, we spent the last years of his life reliving the '60s, we living our youth. i was in my 70s when we did this, he was in his 80s. started with kennedy and went through the end of the decade

together. >> dick and i were talking about the war at one point and lyndon johnson. he went and got an old speech he'd written for lyndon johnson prior to his departure. he had notations on the side, didn't know what way johnson would go on the war, but we now know. what was dick's mood now that you reflected on, having looked at everything in the boxes, his mood toward lyndon johnson and the increased escalation of vietnam? >> one of the things that happened for dick and me, i was such a johnson loyalist. i ended up working for him in the last days of his white house and helped him on his memoirs. while i had been an anti-war activist, i had great respect for what he did domestically, medicare, medicaid, immigration reform, education, everything. dick was a kennedy loyalist. there was a fault line between the two. after the war escalated, he resented johnson so much. he had loved him so much. he was involved in doing the selma speech right after bloody

sunday. it was dick's proudest moment in public life. the incredible joint session speech. after it was over, johnson went for voting rights, talked about the idea of what america stood for and how we had the freedom riders and the people marching, they made this happen. he said, i love lyndon johnson. i never would have imagined two years later, i would be marching in the streets against him. >> we shall overcome. >> that was the moment. when he was working on the speech, only that day to work on the speech, nine hours. he comes in at 9:00, has to be ready at 6:00. he put his watch away, as if he would put his watch away, he wouldn't have to worry about time. it was crazy. he kept working. pages were going out to lyndon johnson who is screaming outside, but knows he can't pressure ddick because he only has that day. he had to take a break. he and mike used to smoke cigars together. he heard the young people singing, "we shall overcome." he added that passage into the

speech after he talked about not a northern problem, not a southern problem, not a states right problem, the constitutional command is clear, it is not even a moral problem to deny your fellow americans a right to vote, it is wrong, dead wrong. then he said, even if we get this done, the full blessings will take a lot longer, but we have to fight for it. and we shall overcome. that's the moment when change happens. as you know, eddie, the outside movement fires the conscience of the people and it happens. he loved him so much, then he was so angry the war had undone things. in the last years of his life, you saw us in the last years, mike, he retained a remembrance of what was great about johnson, the he came to terms with him. it made him a happier person and he was fulfilled, that he'd done something that mattered, that the country did something that was madders, and it was all despite vietnam. >> we have an extraordinary

clip. 1964 conversation between president johnson and his press secretary, bill moyers. it was this conversation that sets the stage for dick goodwin's return to the white house. though he wouldn't know it took place until decades later. >> we've got no one that can be phonetic, get rhythm. >> the only person i know who can, i'm reluctant to ask him to get involved in this because right now it's in our little circle, is goodwin. >> why not just ask him? if he can't put sex in it? i'd ask him if he couldn't put some rhyme in it, churchillian phrases. if it takes off, we'll use it. but ask him if he can do it in confidence. call him tonight and say, i want to bring it to you. i have it ready to go. but he wants you to work on it if you can do it without getting it into the column. >> all right. i'll call him right now. >> i'm pretty impressed with

him. he's working on latin america already, see how he's getting along. but can he put the music to it? >> wow. can he put the music to it? can he put a little sex in it? as we said, dick didn't know that conversation had taken place until much later. what do you think when you hear that conversation? >> oh, it's great. we were like nosey neighbors listening on a party line. he realized, this is what got me to work for lbj. not long after that conversation, dick is called to a meeting by bill with lyndon johnson. they want a vision for what johnson's program would be. he was getting the tax bill through, and he wanted his own johnson program. the meeting took place in a pool rather than the office. they come, and johnson is swimming naked in the pool. >> wow. >> there's bill and dick standing with their suits on, no bathing suits. he says, come on, boys. as they swim, he says, i want my own program, and they outline what will be the great society.

that's the first big speech that my husband worked on. he comes up with the phrase, great society. it has in it medicare, medicaid, aid to education, all the things that will become the 89th congress. it all started naked in the pool, paddling up and down. >> that's some image, doris. >> for the history nerds. >> now you know the rest of the story. well, thank you, doris. tomorrow, we will get to the points we wanted to get to, but this was far too interesting, especially figuring out where all the greatest programs of the 20th century started. in that pool. all right. thank you. coming up, host and creative director of msnbc live, luke russert will join us on his new book, "look for me there," which explores grief and how he found himself after his legend father, tim russert, passed away. "morning joe" will be right back. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu,

a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu. from midnight tweets- to drinking bleach- to tear-gassing citizens, and staging a photo op.

we knew trump was out of control when he was president. then he lost the 2020 election- and snapped. desperately trying to hold onto power. now he's running again. this time threatening to be a dictator. to terminate the constitution. "if i don't get elected,it's going to be a bloodbath." trump wants revenge. and he'll stop at nothing to get it. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. slowing my cancer from growing and living longer are two things i want from my metastatic breast cancer treatment. and with kisqali, i can have both. kisqali is a pill that when taken with an aromatase inhibitor helps delay cancer from growing and has been proven to help people live significantly longer across three separate clinical trials. so, i have the confidence to live my life. kisqali can cause lung problems or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. avoid grapefruit during treatment. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms,

including breathing problems, cough, chest pain, a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain, bleeding, bruising, fever, chills, or other symptoms of an infection, a severe or worsening rash, are or plan to become pregnant, or breastfeeding. long live life and long live you. ask your doctor about kisqali today.

norman, bad news... and long live you. i never graduated from med school. what? -but the good news is... xfinity mobile just got even better! now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. i gotta get this deal... i know... faster wifi and savings? ...i don't want to miss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc?

next month marks 16 years since we lost our dear colleague and friend, tim russert, after he suffered a heart attack preparing for "meet the press" in our washington bureau. he was 58 years old. tim's son, luke, just 22 at the time, began his own career with nbc news before he left it all behind in 2016 to face his loss. after traveling to more than 60

countries on a trip that lasted more than three years, luke detailed his journey in his memoir, "look for me there, grieving my father, finding myself," which is now out in paperback. luke joins us now. he is the host and creative director of "msnbc live," a concept that i absolutely love. let's first -- luke, welcome back to the show -- let's talk about the book out in paperback. that journey, why was it important for you to get away a little bit? you were in this world. >> mika, you gave me very sage advice when i was in my 20s. you grew up in a very similar washington bubble. i remember you saying to me, you know, there's no harm in getting outside of this bubble a little bit and really seeing what the rest of the world was like. i didn't take that advice immediately, but when i got to around 30, which i thought was old at the time, and now i'm 38 and realize that's not very old,

i started to realize that i had this lingering question, which is, who was i independent of the last name? who was i independent of this privilege and this d.c. washington bubble i grew up in? would i be able to live with myself if i never tried to ask and answer that question? so i decided to leave and travel. it was originally supposed to be six months to a year, but then it was three years because there were a lot of questions. i was on two parallel tracks. i was, a, trying to answer something, which is the question of who i am independent of this, but i was also running away from something. i was running away from processing the grief of losing my father. if i ever really processed it and sat in it, i really had to admit to myself that he was gone. my guiding light and guiding rock wasn't going to be there anymore. that was something that took a long time to process. once i was able to get through it, write about it, i really got to a place of peace, of which i am so thankful. it is a long journey, and that's often what grief journeys are. there's no rhyme or reason. they're different for everybody, and you have to find your own

way. this book got such a response by so many people who shared their own grief journeys, and i write about that in the afterword and what it meant to me. >> luke, i remember the summer after your dad died, you graduated from bc, and we put you right out in front of the camera. you stepped right in. you write in the book about trying to live up to your dad's name, carry out a legacy, and carry the torch. you were 22, 23. we were in the conventions together at st. paul. >> you were a young pup, still are. >> it was a long time ago. but you did a great job. you were fighting to earn your place. you didn't want people to think you were there for the wrong reasons. i remember thinking, this is a lot to put on you, not just because of your age but what you were grapping with at the time. with distance, what do you think? >> miserable is hard work. i threw myself into that.

there was legacy preservations. i'm trying to live up the spirits of network, of the people who said, we see tim's twinkle in your eye, and wanted to process him. i think i didn't realize the enormity of that. i didn't realize what i was putting myself through. honestly, at that time, like young men in their 20s, it was store and be tough, don't be emotional, you have to be strong, don't be weak. i realize now, later, that's wrong. you have to be vulnerable. you have to be willing to look at yourself and say, you know what? maybe this isn't the best situation for me to have to white-knuckle everything, and find up the balance between showing up and working hard, but also realizing, i don't want to put on this undue stress on me to live up to something that is impossible. it's hard to follow the legend. look at the nfl teams with legendary quarterbacks. sometimes it takes 20, 30 years to follow them. there's a reason why. >> when you went on the road -- >> so great. >> -- you know, initially, it

looked like you were just doing a travelog. >> yeah. >> sending pictures from bali and everything. >> i missed you in bali, mike. i sent for you. you didn't come. >> i envied you. i wanted to be in bali with you, one of my favorite spots. >> yeah. >> was there a point in time over the two to three years in which a lot of people who love you and were close to you and close to your father wondered, is there going to be a time when guilt meets grief? the guilt of what am i doing to myself, taking trips, whacking out the american express card, i have to get something going for myself? was there anything that happened when that happened or did it happen? >> did you get texts from uncle mike while on the road? that sounded personal. >> one of my favorite things -- there is a song, "something more than free," and talks about the concept, if you have too much

freedom, it becomes like a noose. you can hang yourself with it. i got to a point where i realized that as great as the experiences were, it was way different year three than year one. i was not as engaged as i should have been. it was almost like the travel became the job. the travel posts became the job. i wasn't working on myself hard enough. i had two conversations. one with my mother, that she basically sat me down at the kitchen table and says, you come from privilege, all these opportunities, what are you doing? also, a close friend said, you know, this experience is so enriching. you might want to do something with it and help people out. i came to go through all the journals and realized, if i can help out one kid who feels lost because they lost their dad, then this is what i have to do. i threw myself do it. the response has been overwhelming, mike. i mean, i got a letter from a lady in her 90s. she showed up to see me in south buffalo on sunday. she basically said, you know, you could be in your 90s and still not have fully processed

grief. imagine that. carrying a grief for 70 years and not processing it just because of the times or because of your own emotions. the fact that i've been able to open that up in some people, i really thought it'd be more my own age cohort, but, you know, a lot of people hold that grief for a very long time. it's just been overwhelming. the community has come around. it took a long time, but i got to where i needed to be. >> you know, luke, i think -- >> sorry, ifb here. what is josing? >> we'll fix you up, and i'll translate. >> i was just saying, i think it is brilliant what luke did. there are -- you hear from thee theologians, rock stars, so many people, they don't understand the journey until they get at the end and look back, and it all connects.

it's so important, willie, that luke got out and actually had that down time and was able to wrestle with that grief. okay, luke can hear. luke, it all makes sense now, like so many things. when you get down the road, you look back and see how things are interrelated and connected. that time that you had was so remarkable because you had so many great experiences. i remember mika talking to you. i remember when she talked to you, when she said, hey, you grew up in a family like my family. you're going to get there by doing other things. by working harder than everybody else. by doing things that other people haven't done. and when i look at what you've done, your dad went in a different direction. it's the same thing with your dad, when he went to work for senator moynihan, he told him, hey, you've had experiences. none of these other people have had them.

that's why i need you. luke, you've had experiences that few other people have had, this traveling around, trying to outrun your grief. man, it's brought you back to a place where you actually, the grief caught up to you and you come back with all outside experiences. i think it is beautiful, man. talk about how it's changed you as a person and what you've brought back from the journey. >> well, i think where i changed as a person more than anything, it pushed me to be more vulnerable. in the space of being vulnerable, i was really able to not only understand myself but also understand others in a much more deep and meaningful way. i think often times, especially in the media as you know, joe, you get caught up in what the news cycle is, who is up, who is down and all that, and you don't take time to step away and be perceptive and evaluate things, notice the world around you. what is actually getting

through? what matters to people? going around the world, you see it is pretty simple. people want a roof over their head, food in their bellies, a sense of safety, and they want opportunity for themselves and their children. everything else is just an added bonus. those are the main things that they focus in on. there are also a lot of god-fearing people and different faiths around the world who, at the end of the day, are kind and welcoming. i went to countries you would think do not like the united states, and they could not have been closer. one thing i want to say, though, to you, joe, which you honed in on the last time i was on, you quoted our good friend mr. brokaw, about being able to talk to your lost loved ones every single day. it is an amazing thing. you know, when i was doing the book signings, so many people came up to me and said, i know this sounds crazy, but talk to your dad. you can do it. i go, i know. i do. i said, joe scarborough talks to his dad, too. there's a whole community out there that does that. i thank you so much for bringing

that up last time because it resonated with a lot of people. coming up, joe's sit-down interview with jerry seinfeld and the hilarious cast of the new netflix movie "unfrosted." that's next on "morning joe." some people just know that the best rate for you is a rate based on you, with allstate. because you... you are not doing this. save with drivewise and get a rate based on you. you're in good hands with allstate. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪)

announcer what if you could whiten your teeth by simply brushing your teeth? now you can with smileactives, the teeth whitening breakthrough that safely gets your teeth white and keeps them white every day just by brushing your teeth. christine i never thought that whitening my teeth could be so easy. i just put the gel on the brush, the toothpaste on it, brush and i can see my white teeth. announcer simply add smileactives to any toothpaste, and our patented polyclean technology activates into a powerful micro foam that penetrates into the enamel surface to safely lift and remove stains. robert you need a simple way

to withen your teeth without strips, without trays, without going to the dentist. and it was about time that a product was developed that you would be able to do that with just brushing. announcer and now smileactives is even better. with new pro whitening gel with 33% greater whitening power. clinically shown to whiten teeth faster up to eight shades. 100% of users saw whiter teeth on food stains, coffee and wine stains, even on veneers, crowns and dentures. paul i eat the blueberries, i drink the coffee and i know that smileactives will keep my teeth white every day. janell if you could do something so easy like smileactives to take yellow teeth to white teeth, why wouldn't you? announcer why spend hundreds of dollars for whitening treatments at the dentist, when now you can whiten your teeth with new smileactives pro whitening gel every time you brush your teeth. call or go to smileactives.com and for a limited time get new pro whitening gel for just $24.95. order in the next 5 minutes and buy one get one absolutely free

for just $24.95. that's two for one and save 58%. we■ll even include free shipping. get your teeth whiter, guaranteed, or return it within 60 days for your money back. i smile every day now. the difference is literally night and day. so now i'm always smiling or cheesing because now my teeth are much wither. announcer this offer is not available in stores, so call or click now before the special buy one, get one free offer goes away. ow! uh oh. you, ok? no... i mean yeah. -just hit my melon. -yikes! should we see a doctor? i can't tell a doctor i slipped on a toy. i'm a triathlete! i had a concussion. most happen doing ordinary things.

sometimes the tough thing to do is to get help to prevent serious damage. i like your sensitive side. don't mess with your melon. food isn't if youjust fuel to live.ecked. it's fuel to grow. my family relied on public assistance to help provide meals for us. these meals fueled my involvement in theater and the arts as a child, which fostered my love for acting. the feeding america network of food banks helps millions of people put food on the table. when people are fed, futures are nourished. join the movement to end hunger and together we can open endless possibilities for people to thrive. visit feedingamerica.org/actnow welcome back. jerry seinfeld is no stranger to assembling an all-star roster of talent. his latest project may just take the cake. the movie entitled, "unfrosted,"

chronicles an alternate history of the invention of the pop tart. joe recently sat down with jerry and some of the "unfrosted" cast to discuss the making of the film and their experience working together. >> i grew up in a time and where cereal was king. i mean crisp versus quake. >> yes. crisp verse you quake that should have been in the movie. >> you had the games on the back. it really did have a huge cultural impact. >> yeah. >> we weren't fat then though. >> yeah. >> everyone was thin in the '60s. even with the same junk. i don't know what happened. >> you came up with this idea during covid? >> my friend who wrote "the soup nazi." >> not for you! no soup for you. >> said we used to joke for

years about doing a movie about the pop tart. i used to talk about the pop tart in my comedy set. >> the biggest food thing that happened to me when they invented the pop tart, the back of my head blew right off. and just as a stupid idea. and he said let's talk about it. the and andy robin, another writer from my series was talking with us. he said why don't we do it like "the right stuff." when i heard that, i said i'm in. that's comedy. >> and your first -- your first directorial bit at a feature film? >> definitely. when we were doing the series, larry and i were always directing. we were not moving cameras and doing all the prep and stuff like that. >> any trepidation going into it as far as directing? >> no. i have funny people like this. funny people, it's about getting them in a good mood and the fun

will just happen. you know? >> sarah? >> the food was great. >> you had a horrible time? >> awful. >> you told me beforehand this is one of the worst experiences of your life. >> one of the worst experiences i ever had. he made me stand on an apple box for several hours and kept my eyes open. it was awful. but it's a good movie. if that's what you have to do to get a good movie. >> you say as a director he was obsessive. you know, where your place you hands. >> where you place the hands, where your eyes are. how loud your voice is, how quick you talk. i mean this guy -- >> i had a great time. >> of course you did. you want to be in the next movie. >> so when max had the tongs in toaster -- remember that scene. >> yes. >> must be so dramatic. >> i said, okay, max. knew your getting electrocuted but you're going to fight through it. >> it was beautiful.

>> and that was one of my favorite funny moments. . >> one of your favorite moments? >> yeah. most people would let go, you know? i said, no, you're going to fight through this. >> so, max, what was it like working -- actually, you were playing the rival of a guy that was your idol. seems to be like any musician getting a chance to jam with paul mccartney. >> yeah. well, i mean, just working with jerry, they called me and said you can bring up oppenheimer and i got a call about it. he said you want to audition for "oppenheimer" and they sent me something dummy size and i read it. i said nobody is going to believe me as a scientist. i said no one wants to see this. and then three weeks later they called and said do you want to audition for jerry seinfeld's pop tart movie? 100%. >> i'm all in. all in. and you played the kellogg that would fail. >> yeah. >> edsall.

>> yes. >> it was great. i played jerry's boss in the movie. >> you did. >> very similar to our every day life. i tell him how to do everything. the. >> and christian, i would not expect you to be a milk mafia don. >> there was an element of danger, elements of the character brilliantly written. i like the guy's back story. you know? he's got children. he's got mouths to feed. >> exactly. >> so, you know, this guy coming along and creating a thing that doesn't need milk is very upsetting. >> what was it like, jim, just the people you got to work with? we're joking a lot about "oppenheimer" and christopher nolen. and they say when he calls, you do it. i would guess -- i'm serious here. same thing with jerry seinfeld wants you to be in this movie -- >> oh, yeah. i definitely wanted to be

involved immediately. but to your point, i mean, every day it was -- you're like, oh, my gosh, i can't believe this person is coming in. and it's just all these funny people upon funny people. and then some people, you're like how did jerry pull this off? because it is an enormous cast. and it is -- it real yind of -- really kind of covers the spectrum. >> you made it right in the politically correct times. mousse leany and jfk, cuban missile crisis, jfk assassination. very gutsy, maverick. >> you are making any progress? >> it's not to scale, but -- >> what you are guys, 5 years old? little john-john draws better than that. i think will is something wrong with him. >> i'm just curious, how did that writing go? you say, yeah, just throw this line in about jfk jr. because everybody is making jokes about him right now. >> yeah.

that was a bill burris ad lib and we just loved it. it was really funny. i didn't know it was an ad lib. >> it got much much worse. he had elanor roosevelt coming over for a naked swim in that scene. and we couldn't quite put the history of that together. the so elanor roosevelt is coming over and you're going to swim in the nude. what is that called, skinny dipping. >> sarah, what was the part for you the most exciting? what did you enjoy the most? >> watching the movie was great. i watched it many times now. but actually when we were filming it just the funeral scene is one of my favorites. when i saw the box of kelloggs that said funeral size -- that was where, i said this movie is brilliant. it's just punch line after punch line. >> jerry, let me ask you, where did you come up with the idea for the funeral scene?

>> credit andy robin who said full cereal honors. and i thought well what would that be? and then i came up with we're going to turn the grave site into a cereal bowl. and then that's why we had killed the guy. there was no reason to kill that guy. i just wanted to do the funeral scene. we killed somebody to have a funeral. being a cereal obsessive, anything that's a whole, i want to put milk and cereal in it. >> anything that's a hole. >> which brings us -- i just -- >> which brings us, jim, to the awards ceremony. the awards ceremony. and some of the cereals that did not make it the first year. one of them called -- >> grandma's hole. >> you know what? i never liked that joke. i didn't like that joke.

>> but you laugh at it, right? >> yeah. >> i think also that's some of what is so amazing about this movie is it's -- we're talking about one of 1,000 bits and layers. we heard about the funeral. there's like six different elements that are so absurd -- [ singing opera ] >> and the fruit loop and top of it is a nest for some reason. that's the detail. it's so fun. but it's thought out and there's a strong point of view with it. that's what kind of associate with jerry. it's point of view driven not to be nerdy. but it is. >> what is the strong point of view? >> well, the strong point of view is just in every situation,

there's a strong choice made. and, you know, some of it makes sense. and some of it intentionally doesn't make sense. >> yes. >> so, it's like -- >> never put the horizon in the center. >> right? or it's oddly kind of reference of, like, how our culture was okay with that and -- it's a strange kind of commentary. >> that does it for us this morning. thank you for joining us. we hope you have a thoughtful memorial day. msnbc reports starts right now. >> so i'm asking for the liberation -- think of it. will i'm asking for the libertarian party's endorsement or at least lots of your votes. lots and lots of libertarian votes