call manny and say we got this done. >> it is going to be very meaningful to me. >> it sounds like that is righting a wrong. that is going to do it for me. inside with jen psaki starts right now. ♪♪ okay. so there are big leaks and then there are really big weeks and this week is as big as they get. after multiple desperate attempts to delay the trial from donald trump by himself, after weeks of revealing witness testimony and intense cross-examination and after our legal system has been try and tested in ways it never has before, we're reaching the end of the trial. closing arguments in donald trump's criminal trial start tomorrow. after that the judge will deliver his instructions to the jury and then those 7 men and 5 women will deliberate and decide the face of the former

president. we don't know what the outcome will be. only they decide that. that is how our system works, as it should. i know it sounds sur role. it is all really happening, starting tomorrow morning. and if one person appears to be feeling the heat right now, it is clearly trump himself. who, surprise, surprise, lashed out at the judge and the district attorney on the case as a whole over memorial day weekend. trump is pretty clearly testing the bounds ever his gag order because he knows at this point hours away from closing arguments, the judge is past the point of wanting to derail the trial and as the case enters the final phase, you could find any prediction for how it may end. the jury may find the prosecution did not make its case or be acquitted or deadlock and this could end in a mistrial. or the jury could convict trump as former fbi director james comey predicts. that would make trump the first former u.s. president to be

convicted. by the end of the week, we may know which scenario prevails. but how this will play out. we don't know yet. but it all starts tomorrow morning. and judging from the opening statements, we could expect prosecutors to make a meticulous approach to story telling as a communicator, i was impressed in how he structured the opening. a key part is convening to the jury what trump's motivation was behind misrepresenting the payments to michael cohen. there are other components but that is a key part of it. and judging from the defense, we could expect to hear further effort to dismantle michael cohen's credibility. there were more than a dozen witnesses before cohen that corroborated his story and it is in part if the jury doesn't believe him, michael cohen, they could help their client avoid a conviction. there is a lot to unpack tomorrow when the prosecution and defense make their final cases. and then very soon after, when a

jury of trump's peers in new york decide on fate. i have mary mccord, the former acting assistant attorney for the justice department and glenn kirshner is a former federal prosecutor, lisa rubin is a legal constituent. all of them have been following this trial very, very closely and they join me now. so lisa, i'll start with you. you've been in the courtroom and almost every day. maybe every day. you've been -- >> every day. >> every day. i'm sorry, i didn't mean to cut you short there. we know the judge is meticulous and organized storyteller and reading the transcript from the opening statement. what do you expect in terms of what he'll say and how it will be structured tomorrow. >> i think josh stein glass is going to put together a chronology from all of the desperate pieces that we've seen so far. and we have seen testimony from so many different people and data and other documents from

different sources. everything from phone records providers to the trump organization itself. as though i expect that josh steinglass is going to take the jury through and talk about the conspiracy was formed and how donald trump was a part of the conspiracy and a broad sense but okayed the payment to stormy daniels and then moving on to the period in which he was president, how we know that he okayed the repayment scheme that they came up with and executed the check, nine of them personally to michael cohen all throughout that period. and then they're going to take us to a period beyond the point where michael cohen was receiving checks to all of the different episodes that show what mary and glenn will know is consciousness of guilt. statements that trump made in litigation, in his financial disclosure form and even on twitter that show he knows full well exactly what this was. it was a repayment for a hush money payment to stormy daniels,

not payments for legitimate legal services. >> so mary, this is a lot to pack into a closing argument. you know, a lot of what was in the opening, it was interesting and it was story telling in an edgy way that people that aren't lawyers could understand. what is most important in your view in this closing argument that the jury needs to hear and digest and understand? >> a few things. he wants to continue the story telling in the sense we've now told you this story. here is the evidence and i agree with lisa, he'll set out a time line and go through it con logically. here is the story in opening and here is how we proved it up through the evidence admitted at trial. i think crucially he'll show how basically the government, the people as they call them, when it is a state court in new york, the people establish really the elements of this crime even before they got to michael cohen. so that he will try to minimize the necessity for michael

cohen's testimony, michael cohen's evidence and have the jury understand that the case was pretty much proven and then michael cohen just tied it all up. filled in some gaps. but everything that was critical that he said that is necessary to find mr. trump's guilt had already been corroborate and proven through other witnesses include exhibits, through allen weisselberg's notes on the actual documents that were actually the bank records that michael cohen had. the notes about how the repayment would be made. all of these things. so i think that is going to be very, very important for them. the defense on the other hand is going to hammer michael cohen's credibility and try to suggest that michael cohen was acting completely independently to the extent there was a conspiracy here, it was a conspiracy between michael cohen and david pecker and, you know, keith davidson, but not donald trump. >> the michael cohen acting

roguely just doesn't even make sense as a human being. but i'm not a lawyer. glenn, you wrote a piece this morning. but as mary just said, they're strategy seems to be around michael cohen's credibility. and you've basically argued in your piece that michael cohen admitting to his lies may help with the jury in credibility. right. he did admit to it pretty quickly. and wrote about how you would handle the issue with the phone call which is kind of a big moment during last couple of weeks that cohen may have mixed up in terms. date of the date. >> i agree they will hammer on michael cohen. but the good news is the jurors don't check their common sense at the courtroom door. they bring it into the jury box and the deliberation room and they're going to view the evidence through their sort of common sense lens and i think one thing that will likely resonate with them is the question who benefited from this

crime? certainly not michael cohen. he wasn't running for office. he didn't get elected president of the united states. in fact, it sounds like he had to sneak around and hide from his own wife the fact that he was opening a home equity line of credit to make this corrupt hush money payment. why? to try to help donald trump win elected office. that is the kind of common sense argument that will resonate with the jury. with respect to the phone call, i frankly chuckled to myself as a former career prosecutor when i heard people swooning over just how damaging that was to michael cohen's credibility. think about this. michael cohen did not accurately remember whether he told donald trump in a phone call on a tuesday or a thursday, hey, boss, i made the payment. now, first of all, i would ask the jurors, ladies and gentlemen, do you remember chapter and verse the time of each phone call eight years ago. you may remember the substance of a consequential call but you don't remember the date and the

time. and more importantly, as much of a cheapskate as donald trump is, do you really think that he would have started writing $35,000 reimburment checks if michael cohen hadn't told him, hey, boss, i made the payment. i want my money. you know, these are common sense arguments. that will resonate with the jury and i think that the defense overplayed its hand in any number of ways. including and maybe we'll get to this, insisting that donald trump had no sexual encounter with stormy daniels. boy, is that going to come back to bite them. >> it was in the opening statement of todd blanche where they insisted on that. lisa, let me ask you about this piece. it is this credibility component, feels like it is a big weight for how both sides are thinking about the jury. and as glenn mentioned there, the did he or did he not have sexual relations with stormy

daniels, but there is also this credibility of michael cohen. i mean how do you play that if you're the prosecution? >> well, i think that would take stormy daniels from michael cohen, let's talk about michael cohen first. i think the way you play that is as mary was suggesting, about minimizing cohen and really focus on all of the other ways thab established critical facts and through two people's testimony, david pecker and hope hicks. each of whom were devastating to donald trump. so when you talk about earlier and glenn was talking about for whose benefit was this extreme, certainly not for michael cohen. one answer to that is of course it was for donald trump. because why else would donald trump throw david pecker essentially a thank you party from the white house in july of 2017 where he said to pecker, according to pecker's testimony, invite whoever you want. this is a thank you for you. well what the heck else is donald trump thanking david pecker for other than saving his behind in the general election,

but burying not only one, but two stories that could have had a devastating impact on his campaign in the wake of the access hollywood tape. and in terms of michael cohen and his own credibility, the way you shore up that credibility is similar. you show all of the ways in which the documentation and other witnesses support cohen. so for example, hope hicks, by taking a dig at michael cohen, shored up his credibility. she said, i didn't believe for a second that when trump was telling me cohen made this payment out of the goodness of his own heart, that is the way that all went down. and when she was asked why, she said because that wasn't the michael cohen i knew. the michael cohen i knew was the first person to take credit for anything. he was not a selfless and generous human being. that is the way to establish credibility even if it is taking a knock at him in other dimensions of his life. >> the corroboration of it by so many witnesses is such an important component ever this.

so i feel like everybody is texting me, how long will this take. we don't know. everybody is becoming a lawyer. so one of things that i read about is that the jury is not allowed to take the instructions with them. which i think is -- might be standard in new york. we could ask lisa that question or maybe you know the answer to that question. how do they do that? do they take notes? is there any timeline for deliberations? >> i think part of the reason that some sorts decide they won't give the jury instructions to the jury is they don't want people who end up having questions an going back to it then playing lawyer themselves. and interpreting that language. if there is a question about instructions, the court will want the jury to ask the judge their question. >> and the judge will then talk to the jury. >> exactly. and that way it is coming from the judge. so they are relying on memories. and at the beginning of the trial, the judge allowed them to take notes. and other thing i expect that you'll hear from jury

instructions is your notes are not evidence and your notes are not proof. use them as an aid to refresh your recollection. but people should understand, people make mistakes in their notes and don't rely so much on that. once they have written something down, they take it as fact. but that is not the case. so those kind of instructions will be there for the jury. in terms of how long it takes, there is just to way of knowing. what they don't need to do, what you often start other federal trials with, is electing a foreperson. we already have a foreperson because it is the first juror selected in new york. there are 34 counts but the proof for each is pretty similar. the instructions will tell them what elements they have to prove in order to find that people had to prove in order for them to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. i think in addition to the different alternatives you mentioned at the top of the hour about what the jury might do, there is another possibility too which is a mixed verdict.

i'm not saying that the prosecution didn't prove their case for all 34 counts but they could view the first few counts relating to payments that were reimbursements coming from the trump revocable trust, signed not by donald trump as president, but signed by those still working for the trump organization. they could view those differently for example than the nine counts where donald trump himself was signing from the white house for goodness sakes and where they've heard evidence that those invoices were sent personally to keith schiller for him to sign. so you could see some break down between some counts finding not guilty or hanging on, not having all 12 agree, because an acquittal means all 12 have to agree. i find that highly unlikely to be honest in this case. but you could have break downs

like that and though takes time. >> all things to watch. nobody set their time. we don't know. we have to sneak in a quick break. we'll keep our conversation going back on the other end. also coming up, donald trump's hush money trial isn't the only legal battle the former president is facing right now and we're following a significant development in other case. jack smith is seeking a brand-new gag order against trump. we'll discuss that next. (vo) you've had thyroid eye disease for a long time. and you've lived with the damage it caused. but even after all these years, restoration is still possible. learn how at tedhelp.com. ♪ [suspenseful music] trains. [whoosh]

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40 federal charges. trump followed up tuesday night with a fundraising email blast claiming that the doj was authorized to shoot me. also adding, quote, joe biden was locked and loaded ready to take me out and put my family in danger. that is obviously not true and a borderline crazy statement but that did not stop his allies from getting behind that lie. congressman marjorie taylor greene said the fbi was planning to assassinate president trump and gave the green light. on his podcast, steve bannon called it an attempted assassination and tim scott deflected during an interview just yesterday. >> once again we find ourselves re enforcing this two tiered justice system where we see a different standard for republicans and specifically a different start ard for donald trump. there is a fear among conservatives that this weaponizing of the justice system, if they do it to donald

trump, they do it anyone. >> i mean, tim scott, come on. now the fbi took the rare statement of issuing a statement in response to all of these bogus and by the way dangerous claims saying in part, that they followed standard protocol as we do for all search warrant which includes a standard policy statement limiting the use of deadly force. and i would note, and this is an important detail, donald trump was not even in florida at the time. attorney general merrick garland pushed back during a press conference on thursday. >> that allegation is false. and it is extremely dangerous. the document that is being referred to in the allegation is a justice department standard policy limiting the use of force. as the fbi advises, it is part of a standard operations plan for searches and, in fact, it was used in the consensual search of president biden's

home. >> standard protocol. also used in the -- in president biden's home. important words there from merrick garland. another person who knows all of this is special counsel jack smith. he's asking for a new court order blocking donald trump from statements that endanger law enforcement statements and he called the statements false and imflammatory and he explained as trump is well aware, the fbi took extraordinary care to execute the search warrant and scheduling the search of mar-a-lago when he and his family would be away. they're all back with me. glenn, i think this is so important for us to understand. let's start with the fact that this language is standard protocol. explain more on that. >> every law enforcement agency, every law enforcement officer, when they on an operation,

whether it is executing an arrest warrant or searching a premises, they're entitled to use deadly force when to repel a deadly attack or to protect the safety and lives ever others. so this was entirely routine. run-of-the-mill as the attorney general and others said. but i'll tell you, jen, the most infuriating part is when i read the 12-page filing from jack smith and two things that jumped out of me. one, they coordinated with donald trump's attorneys in advance of the execution of the search warrant. i have to tell you, i think that is a mistake. because that gives targets of an investigation an opportunity to hide evidence, to destroy evident, so, i don't know, move boxes of classified documents from one place to another. not only that, they executed this search warrant at a time they knew donald trump and his family would be out of florida. they weren't even going to be in the state. so when donald trump posted that

they were ready to shoot me and they endangered my family, he knows that is an extraordinarily dangerous lie to tell because they weren't even in the state and the fbi made sure they weren't going to be in the state. so when steve bannon said this was an assassination attempt, it has got to be the most incompetent assassination attempt ever because they made sure the target wasn't even going to be on the promises. this is dangerous violence-inducing rhetoric from donald trump. >> this is -- and i want to spend a moment on that. because the threat and jack smith references in this his filing, the danger this caused and you heard merrick garland talk about this and they know trump wasn't even there at the time. that is an easy to understand fact. and what the problem is, is that people could watch tim scott, or watch marjorie taylor greene and think there was an assassination

attempt on the former president when there clearly was not. talk about the danger this poses to law enforcement officials. >> this is why jack smith has sought an amendment of mr. trump's release pending trial including that he not make these type of accusations and attacks. we know from all of the cases that have been brought that attacks on judges result in threats to judges. there is a person being prosecuted for threatening judge tanya chutkan here in d.c. and after the mar-a-lago search warrant was executed, there was an attack on the fbi field office in cincinnati in retaliation for what the person who committed this had been consuming from sort of unfair raid on mar-a-lago. we know that prosecutors have been threatened over emails, by voice mail, with people coming to homes, we know people have gotten docks, people have had

false hoaxes called in about them and swatted as they call it. there is a track record here of people listening to false statements, not only by donald trump but by people like marjorie taylor greene and tim scott and acting on them. and now this is probably mostin -- most inflammatory of all. and what jack smith is concerned about is that will put a target on those law enforcement agents's backs. >> and it is so alarming. and ailine cannon has moments, what can she do here? what are the options should she want to take action? >> well the first option for her to do what the motion asks which is to modify donald trump's conditionch release and i want to differentiate that from your standard gag order. because the release that the

government is asking here would modify trumps conditions of release such that if he were to violate them, and make some sort of significant imminent and foreseeable threat to the law enforcement involved in this investigation, she could immediately revoke his release and impose conditions that would include putting him in jail or pretrial detention. so the fact that the government is asking to modify the conditions ever release and not just the standard gag order. that is a big deal. and then we have judge cannon who has not been expeditious on ruling on the motions to dismiss in front of her. i think she sits on this for a while and denies it at which point jack smith could elevate this to the 11th circuit and a denile after a request to modify conditions of release is immediately appealable and in the federal system and that is one of the reasons they likely have asked for it the way that they have. >> not particularly expeditious.

that is a good way of describing it. lisa, thank you all very much. mary mccord, glenn kirshner and lisa rubin and i know you're working hard this week. and coming up, donald trump heads to the libertarian convention and gets booed loudly. we'll tell you about that when we come back. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals,

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over the weekend, donald trump made his case to the

libertarian party on why they should support him. and let's just say the crowd reception is not what he's becomed accustomed to at the usual maga rallies. he was loudly booed throughout his remark and at one point he clearly got fed up. >> the libertarian party should nominate trump for president of the united states. woe, that is nice. that's nice. only if you want to win. only if you want to win. maybe you don't want to win. maybe you don't want to win. thank you, d. roy. thank you. no only do that if you want to win. if you want to lose, don't do that. keep getting your 3% every four years. >> antagonizing your audience. i could tell you, it is not the most effective of strategies and in a political campaign.

but there we go. surprise, surprise, trump did not get the libertarian endorsement or the nomination. they nominated as they have in title and he got six write-in votes which is less than 6% of the vote and that is to eke out a few votes. and look at 2020. back in 2020, the libertarian candidate received more than 50,000 votes in the hotly contested state of arizona. trump only lost that state by just over 10,000 votes. so from the trump's campaign perspective, courting some of the voters could maybe swing the election or put a dent in it. could maybe flip a battleground state, one of the ones they narrowly lost four years ago. but what is also notable is what the trump campaign is trying to target. go after some libertarian voters but they may want to take a closer look at a block in our own party. that chunk of republican voters

who still vote for nikki haley over donald trump in state primaries even though trump is still the nominee. tim miller is here and jennifer palmieri and david jolly is a former republican congressman from florida. okay, tim, antagonizing your audience, notoy deal strategy. what did you make of the reaction at the libertarian convention? >> just rewatching it right through, the one thing that struck me is standing in front of the sign that become ungovernable and the anarchy and the biden campaign could use that image because that is in line with donald trump. he is ungovernorable. ands you poin out, it makes sense that he could try to reach out to those folks. the third parties will matter. joe biden will have to reach out

to the green party. that is not in donald trump's skillset responding to negative feedback. as a mega narcissist, that is not his strength. you could understand the strategy about why he was doing that. it is just executed pretty poorly. >> very poorly. it is almost like they didn't know what they were walking into. as we all know, there is nothing more valuable than a candidate's time. so jennifer palmieri, i want to ask you a follow up to the question i asked tim, yes, it makes sense to reach out to these voters, and maybe reaching out to the haley type voters or something else. what did you make of the decision? and they doesn't seem to know what they were walking into. that is the thing that sits with me. >> the former president of the libertarian party was on morning joe on thursday and friday and he predicted exactly what happened. he's going to get a bad reception and not get the

endorsement. i don't think even that guy thought he would get six votes. but it is that he hasn't done a lot of other campaigning. he's in the bronx last week. >> new jersey. >> and then new jersey. people are like, oh, he was in new jersey but it is the philadelphia media market or you could go to philadelphia. co go to an actual battleground state. so it tells me that the campaign thought they're worried about rfk and they think this is a good move to try to get those voters over. but then also, you know, i think he just won't appeal to haley's voters. i think he's too upset about it. you're correct that that -- you do both things. appeal to the libertarians and the haley voters and he appears to not want to do that. >> no, he doesn't. i i think rfk got more votes than him at this convention. so not even that works. and trump has to expand and the polls are very tight and trump is up in a number ever places

but he has to expand his base of support. if he's not going after the haley voters, he's not going over the libertarians effectively, is he just assuming people will come back to him. what is the game plan here? >> well, look, i think negative partisanship is more likely to put people in trump's camp than anything trump can run on. he could run on chaos and being a wrecking ball again. but a lot of people, that is why they don't want trump. that is why the haley voter is a haley voter and not a trump voter. when nikki haley said i hope donald trump will do more outrook, they don't like him. the two opportunities to expand his base and i say it sadly, first is negative partisanship. what nikki haley's move showed us is that the level of hatred to joe biden and the effectiveness of conspiracy theories and false information about the economy and his leadership on the world stage, that is really deeply rooted in

republican performing voters. so the negative hits on joe biden might bring some haley voters back to the trump camp. but the second wild card is the vp pick. look, mike pence in 2016 was necessary for a specific reason. you can bring a proxy of nikki haley, a marco rubio to the trump ticket and a lot of the haley voters say, coy see this. i could see policy. this is a republican party that i remember. look, a lot of haley voters will still vote for joe biden. but the vice president pick could matter for the president -- for the former president. >> it would be the first time ever that it mattered. but maybe. maybe in terms of winning an election. maybe. p tim, let me ask you about rick grenell. he's trump's former acting director of intelligence and current adviser. according to him, he had the anews for the appearance and he said that he knew the election wasn't stolen and that was to,

quote, throw spaghetti at the wall and wanted to be secretary of state and what is bizarre is that he's driving some of the campaign strategy here. what strikes you about it? >> what strikes me is my holiday weekend is over when someone said let's talk about rick grenell. that is a downer. but anyway, look rick grenell is a unstable character. what strikes me, he's an unstable guy. you just have to look at his twitter feed. he sends out deeply personal misogynistic and conspiracy information and yet he might be among most strategic, if i could use that word, of the people around trump. and trump has, you know, cast out a lot of the people around him that had political experience before. now he's brought in chris and susie wilds. two people at the top ever his

campaign. but everybody he talks to is a insane person and i think grenell tries to bridge the two camps. so like super crazy and a republican strategist who knows what they're doing, who is going along to get along with the crazy. and i think that is why he plays an important role and i think he wants to be a leading foreign policy advocate for trump or appointee if he gets in there. >> it sounds like i didn't ruin your memorial day because you had a lot of thoughts on rick grenell there. so, i'm going to call you out on that. >> i'm just getting warmed up, baby. i could do the full hour if you want. >> be careful what you offer. we may need to. jennifer palmieri, let me end with you. there are so many factors going on here. rick grenell and libertarians booing him. and there is tweeting out crazy videos. calling it the third reich. there are so many crazy things happening. if you're the biden team, the polls which may be so tight until the end, they don't seem to be shifting. what are you hoping for if you're them?

>> i think what i saw that was important and there is so much to pick from. you have to pick your lane and any argument you make has to ladder up to an overarching message. for example, when biden -- or excuse me, when the trump campaign posted that video that talks about the unified reich, president biden did a video responding to it and he didn't end with trump is a fascist. he ended with i'm fighting for you and trump only cares about power and himself. right. like everything is lathering up to that message. and so i think there are a lot of voters that are open to him. but you have to taylor and have a unified message that is breaking through every time you make an argument against trump otherwise it is going to get lost in the wash which is something that i worry about. >> who am i fighting for feels like the core t-shirt.

it was the 2012 message too. thank you so much for joining me. i'm sorry it is memorial day and david jolly. thank you. coming up, world leaders are condemning an israeli air strike that killed dozens of displaced palestinians in rafah late last flight. we'll tell you what benjamin netanyahu is saying what the u.s. will do in response. we're back after a quick break. e we're back after a quick break a year after a heart attack, mike's feeling like himself again. but even though time has passed, his risk of a second attack hasn't. mike is still living in the red. with a very high risk of another heart attack or stroke. he doesn't know with his risk factors his ldl-c (bad cholesterol) is still too high - the recommended level is below 55. are you living in the red? get in the know. learn how to get a free ldl-c test at attackheartdisease.com.

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start with a round brush head. add power. and you've got oral-b. round cleans better by surrounding each tooth to remove 100% more plaque. for a superior clean. oral-b. brush like a pro. according to health officials in gaza, dozens of people, including women and children and elderly, were killed in a deadly israeli strike last night in rafah. civilians were sheltering in makeshift tents as a fire tore through the camp. at least 45 people were killed from the initial blast and the fire that followed. according to the local health ministry. the israeli military said they

killed two senior hamas leaders in the strike. this is part of the attacks by the israeli military despite ordering a million displaced palestinians to evacuate there. the top court ordered israel to stop its attacks on rafah. tonight a spokesperson for the white house national security council said the devastating images following the idf strike in rafah that killed dozens of innocent palestinians are heartbreaking. as we've been clear, israel must take every precaution possible to protect civilians and we're actively engaging idf and the naerts on the ground to understand what happen and understand that the idf is conducting an investigation. netanyahu called it a tragic incident and are investigating the case and will draw conclusions because this is our policy. joining me the author of sub stack and everybody should subscribe to. and i've written those

statements and there is an investigation and look into it. but the photos an the images. >> they are devastating. >> so if you were sitting in your old job at the state department or now, what would you be pushing and asking secretary blinken and other officials about what they might be discussing and considering in terms of additional steps to change the behavior of the israeli military. >> if you look back the past few weeks and you've been talking to your former colleagues, president biden has been laying out certain things about rafah. don't go into rafah. but if you want to do it, be limited or i'm going to hold the aid. then he said, the humanitarian situation is so bad and oh, yeah, by the way, there may have been violations of international law. and so he keeps saying to prime minister netanyahu, he keeps laying out what his red lines are and what he likes to see and at every point prime minister netanyahu is ignoring. >> plowing forward. >> plowing forward. and i think you're hearing the

discussion in the u.s. and other circles, even if, jen, and we don't want to do that. but if we want to put the hampton suffering, the death and the aid and all of that aside for a second and focus on israel and whether this is in their best interest. when you see the isolation that israel is facing in the wake of this attack, france, germany, italy, the united nations, the isolation is deepening. now egypt, one of the only allies that it has a peace treaty with, you see a lot of tension on that border right now. >> one of their soldiers was killed. >> and they joined this icj case about whether it is a genocide or not. we put that aside. but is this all in israel's best interest? and you've heard jake sullivan and the president say we don't think it is in israel's best interest and we want to go a two-state solution. at what point does the israel and the u.s. interests are

antithetical, i think the u.s. has to make a hard choice now about how it is going to support israel? is that with weapons and diplomacy? >> some of it is hoding back of military. it is significant when that actually happens, right. the holding back of military aid to israel if they do more of that. >> i don't think u.s. will hold back the kind ever aid from defending itself against iran or hamas. but these kind of weapon that's are allowing them to launch air strikes, you could condition them for very specif things that they could do and what they can't do. and i think you're going to have to see president biden maybe step it up in terms of the conditions themselves. because clearly he's saying, again, this is not in your interest. and what ally that continues to give israel or any other country aid would be giving ukraine aid if they were --

>> but prime minister netanyahu might decide it is in his personal -- >> he needs this war. i saw mike johnson, the house speaker was going to the israeli national day the other day, to speak on the whole idea of independence and invited prime minister netanyahu and i saw a lot of israelis there that are talking about netanyahu has to go. netanyahu has to go. the head of the european union is saying i'm not going to say israel, i'm going to say the netanyahu government because they think that it is the netanyahu government's policies that are really against israel's best interest and more you see the israeli public saying that too. >> we only have a minute left. but you're a professional. is netanyahu, he referred to the strike as a quote, tragic mishap. he has to acknowledge gib the civilian deaths and the outcry from the international community. is there anything you read in

that in terms of a potential change or we should expect they're going to continue to proceed into rafah? >> you saw today. they didn't even miss a beat, right. they said, sorry. this is collateral -- i'm sure they're not happy that it happened but in their view it is collateral damage. they got two high value targets so in their view they're going to keep plowing ahead. i don't see short ever something international action or particularly a u.s. action that would actually put the brakes on this. israel is going to do what it wants and it is continuing to get, put the brakes on this. israel's going to do what it wants and it's continuing to get i would say mixed messages from the biden administration about what it will accept and what it won't accept. originally it said don't go into rafah. then it said go into rafah but maybe do it in a limited way. so it's going in in a limited way but still we saw what happened today. even if it's not technically in a safe zone, it was right near a u.n. depot where these palestinians thought it was

safe. there's really nowhere right now for them to go short of israel putting them all on a bus and putting them somewhere. so i think you're going to continue to see this until there are some limits put on the campaign. >> a lot to watch. horrific images in the meantime. elise labott, thank you so much for joining me on memorial day. appreciate it very much. up next a current president, a former president and two very different memorial day messages. i'll explain after a very quick break. katie! it's future you. constipation with belly pain again? our doctor figured it out. she said... it's ibs—c and linzess could help you get ahead of it. linzess is not a laxative. it's a once—daily pill that helps you get ahead of your symptoms. it's proven to help you have more frequent and complete bowel movements. and helps relieve overall abdominal symptoms... belly pain, discomfort, and bloating. do not give linzess to children less than two. it may harm them. do not take linzess if you have a bowel blockage. get immediate help if you develop unusual or severe stomach pain, especially with bloody or black stools. the most common side effect is diarrhea, sometimes severe. if it's severe, stop taking linzess

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we all know that memorial day is a solemn day. a day to honor and mourn u.s. military members who died while serving their country. but donald trump is not surprisingly not focused on any of that. he's focused on himself. he posted a long-winded rant on truth social earlier today. earlier that said in part, "happy memorial day to all, including the human scum that is working so hard to destroy our once great country. ." thank you veterans for your service is not what he said. while donald trump spent this day doing that president biden honored the fallen. he participated in a wreath laying ceremony at the tomb of the unknown soldier earlier today along with vice president kamala harris and defense secretary lloyd austin. he then spoke at the national memorial day observance gathering in the memorial amphitheater focusing on those who gave the ultimate sacrifice. >> we gather at this sacred place, at this solemn moment to remember, to honor, honor the

sacrifice of the hundreds of thousands of women and men who've given their lives to this nation, each one literally a chain -- a link in a chain of honor stretching back to our founding days. each one bound by common commitment. not to a place, not to a person, not to a president, but to an idea, unlike any idea in human history. the idea of the united states of america. >> president biden of course has a personal connection to this day. his son beau didn't die in battle but he did die from cancer after being exposed to toxic smoke from burn pits while he served our country. which is one of the reasons why president biden has been adamant about helping other veterans suffering from toxic exposure. he announced just last week that the va has approved claims for more than 1 million veterans injured by burn pits while serving under a new law that he championed. the ninth anniversary of beau's death is coming up later this

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♪♪ well, a verdict is coming soon in the manhattan election interference trial of donald trump. we don't know what it will be. that's up to the jury. but what we can think about is how could a conviction or an acquittal change the presidential race? if at all. i mean, the conventional wisdom is that american voters largely have their minds made up about trump, that the pie is baked, as people say. i don't like that term, by the

way. and his approval numbers haven't really changed much through this trial. not even on days when the testimony against him was pretty devastating. and while there are signs in recent polls that a conviction might peel off some trump voters at the margins, one thing is unlikely to change regardless of the outcome in this trial. trump's reaction to it. according to two veteran trump watchers at "the new york times," maggie haberman and jonathan swan, quote, if the past is any guide, even with a full acquittal mr. trump will be angry and vengeful and will direct attacks against everyone he perceives to be responsible for his prosecution. no surprise there. i mean, if you've paid attention to trump's re-election campaign so far, which has basically been a nationwide vengeance tour day after day in which he likens his criminal prosecutions to the daily trials and tribulations his supporters feel and promises them all a divine sort of revenge. >> in 2016 i declared i am your voice. today i add i am your warrior.

i am your justice. and for those who have been wronged and betrayed i am your retribution. i am your retribution. >> i am your retribution. that was at cpac just last year. and that message is such a huge part of his campaign and his rallies. every time he does them. but it goes even deeper in trump's case. remember in 2020 when the republican senate majority voted to acquit trump in his first impeachment, the one over his perfect phone call seeking dirt on joe biden from the ukrainians? well, the next day trump was pretty fiery, waving newspaper headlines, bragging about the verdict. and where did he do that? at a national prayer breakfast. now, imagine that times ten. this is what you could get with a favorable trump verdict in manhattan. as alyssa farah griffin, the former trump white house communications director turned trump critic told the "times," quoerkts an acquittal or a hung jury is just absolute gold for trump. and it will resonate with a lot of people. she sadded, i do think he realizes there's a way to turn

this into political jet fuel. so what is the biden campaign doing to prepare for that possibility? i mean, it's delicate and difficult. it's a very tricky balance to strike in many ways. with some democrats saying president biden shouldn't be seen as gloating about a guilty verdict. people familiar with biden's reasoning tell politico that he will break his silence on trump's trial after the verdict and he'll do so from the white house. not a campaign setting to drive home that his statement isn't political. a very delicate and difficult balance to strike. with a conviction or without it those close to biden expect that he'll have one message above all. the legal system worked and the process should be respected. but how do you convince enough americans to have deep respect for the process when the republican candidate says the process is the deep state working against him? anthony colee was the director of justice public affairs office. he joins me here on set. also here with us is msnbc political analyst molly jong fast who also hosts the fast politics podcast, a great podcast. and msnbc contributor mckay

copins, who is a staff writer for "the atlantic." i'm going to start with you because you're sitting here with me on set on memorial day. it is a tricky balance for president biden. he's an institutionalist as many have said, many have been critical of. he does not love to get engaged in talking about the legal process even if there's a conviction or acquittal. >> right. >> people may have a higher expectation of what's going to come out of his mouth, but what do you expect him to say? what should he say? >> i think he's got two challenges right now, jen, if you step back and look at it. complacency and amnesia. >> from the electorate. >> from the electorate. people are just not paying attention right now either to this campaign or to this race. so if you're joe biden you want to use this moment to draw a contrast between yourself and between donald trump, but you want to do so in a way that is respectful of the process. right? you've got to choose a setting that is both sober, and so this should be from the white house, right? it should not be out on the campaign trail. but he also has got to pull in

the broader apparatus here. this is not just incumbent upon him to draw this sharp contrast. there's a role here for moderate republicans, for people who are prodemocracy, pro constitution to stand up and speak out. i tend to believe there are so many people who are silent right now and their silence is complicity. it's not just on him to stand up and to speak out and to draw this contrast. this is a moment for everyone, democrats, republicans, and moderates alike who love our country regardless of what the outcome is. >> there's like a defense of institutions moment here because the campaign is not that far away. molly, let me turn this to you because, i mean, there's different polling that suggests that it could matter. right? it could turn some people if trump is convicted. we don't of course know what the jury's going to do. they probably don't know what they're going to do yet. i think there's a question of resources and time and energy. biden's going to speak to this.

but what happens after that? abortion rights is a huge one of them. economy and who you're fighting for. what do you think -- but there's also satisfying the base, to anthony's point there's a lot of complachs out there. what is kind of the level, the amount that biden should talk about this? how should he talk about this in your view? >> look, trump is running against american institutions. part of his autocracy play is that they're not coming for me, this is not a criminal trial about my payments to a woman i had relationships with, in fact it's about you. right? so he's running against these sort of -- the rule of law, the legal world. sort of our norms in this country. so biden has this opportunity here to say this is how the law works and if this jury of his peers finds him guilty this is how justice is supposed to work

and if the prosecution doesn't meet the threshold that too is how these institutions are supposed to work. remember, trump has attacked democracy on january 6th and now he's attacking the justice system. but we know for a fact what will herd says always rings in my ear. this man is running for president because he doesn't want to go to jail. >> yes. that feels accurate. mckay, let me ask you, you've spent so much time covering the republican party, leading republicans. there's a poll that says most trump supporters have their minds made up. as many as a fifth say they would reconsider withholding their support if he's convicted. of course there's a range of different trials, different things. of course what sticks to me even though it isn't a part of the legal case is he had an affair allegedly with a former adult film star while he was married, of course. i mean, but we've written a whole book about it. do you think, mckay, that that

could move any evangelicals if he's convicted or they're pretty much stuck where they are? and if not them who if anyone do you think could be moved in the republican party by a conviction? >> you know, i would love to say that i thought, you know, a conviction here would lead to a mass exodus of social conservatives or evangelical christians. i want to be clear, i've spent a lot of time on the campaign trail interviewing a lot of these people and a lot of them are sincere people of faith who struggle with supporting donald trump on a character basis. but they've made their peace with him and they've made up their minds to support him. and i think the problem with this trial as a potential needle mover and that there just isn't enough new information for people who have already over the last two election cycles brought themselves to pull the lever for donald trump. they already know that he's a womanizer. they know he's not a man of great, you know, faith or integrity. they also, a lot of them, know that he's corrupt. in fact, if you remember, in the

2016 campaign part of his message was -- corrupt establishment people, i know how they operate. so i think that while certainly a lot of the details coming out of this trial are not flattering, and i'm sure there are a lot of trump supporters who kind of, you know, hold back and are chagrined by this stuff, i just don't know if it's enough to make them change their minds about him because so much of it is already baked in. >> anthony, one of the things we've seen the trump team do is kind of throw back accusations that are true about him on his opponents. not just with president biden. with others. it's this whole, you know, corrupt justice system, the biden crime family. you and i both grew up in public service where you're trained basically to not talk about the specifics of like criminal trials, of legal cases. but it does feel like there needs to be some kind of

fighting back on this. what does that look like? >> from the biden campaign perspective? >> yeah. >> so listen, they've got to play it straight. but they've got to go, back to what i said, they've got to sharpen the contrast, understanding what's going to happen on the other side. right? trump, if there is a conviction in this case, he understands that the road to the white house goes through the courthouse. right? and we see this explicitly. you and i use words for a living. we see this explicitly in his language where he says and you played some of it leading into this segment, "i am your retribution," right? he says i'm only getting indicted because of you. and i suspect we're going to see more of that type of language, jen, if there is a criminal conviction here. so what do you do if you're the biden campaign? you go where i started. you play it straight and you bring in the broader app pratt tous help drive home this contrast. you, and i know the first campaign we did together i think was the kerry campaign in 2004.

and what we saw then was that george w. bush beat john kerry. we saw barack obama beat mitt romney, and we saw donald trump lose because that campaign, the trump campaign was a referendum on them. independent presidential campaigns, incumbent presidents tend to win when the race is framed as a contrast between two competing visions, two distinct ideologies. that is what the biden campaign need to do even more of regardless of what happens in this case. >> yeah. i think for the biden campaign, they're thinking about the overall electorate and obviously how to get more votes. that's how you win campaigns. but there is this risk, which i think they're fully aware of, that if he does not say something that the base of the party feels is strong enough when this case is resolved that people will feel upset, disappointed, even more complacent. i mean, how do you strike that balance if you're them? >> look, i think that biden has

done well with he is a protector of institutions. like important institutions. like democracy. right? he should run as that, the keeper of democracy. it's a flawed system but it works. and i would say look, i still think if you look at these polls -- i just wrote a long thing on the polls. they really do -- they take a lot of these voters that -- trump wins a lot of these voters that aren't traditional voters. they're sort of may show up. they're the voters that showed up in 2016, but they don't show up for other elections. so i actually think that that group of voters may actually be moved. they may be slightly less likely to -- i'm not talking about the trump base. i'm talking about the number biden needs to win in swing states. and some of those people are just not traditional voters. so it's not clear to me what will make a difference, but i think that biden world certainly

has an opportunity here to take back the narrative and to sort of change where things are going. >> yeah. that's an interesting -- it could be an interesting moment for that. and the debate is just a couple of weeks to go. so we'll see. mckay, you wrote the biography on mitt romney. there are so many good pieces in that biography. you know kind of the differences in the republican party. could you see other conservatives, i mean, taking more of a mitt romney approach? i'm asking this not just about the outcome of the trial but things like trump suggesting that there was an assassination attempt against him. right? things that are just absolutely false and ludicrous. dangerous. they're attacks on our institution. do you have any sense that there's anything that may push kind of a bigger movement of some of these more responsible republicans to come out? >> so something that i think about all the time that mitt romney told me was that when he was first elected to the senate he was surprised by how many of his colleagues privately agreed to him. he talked about how republican senators would kind of sidle up

to him in private and say i'm so glad you're out there saying what you're saying about trump, holding him accountable. you know, i obviously can't do this because i have to be re-elected but i'm glad you're out there doing it. and it drove him insane because, you know, he thought that he was going to get to the senate and rally, you know, like-minded republicans against the spread of trumpism. that obviously didn't happen. what i will say is if that were to happen the scenario would be that this year we have a not quite record number but an unusually large number of retirements and resignations among republicans in both the house and senate. i do wonder if you'll see republicans on their way out the door not worrying about re-election anymore deciding you know what, i'm finally just going to say what i think about all of this and maybe get a little chance to rewrite their legacies. at least that's what they'll hope. but also i think a lot of them have been spending years kind of with pent-up anguish about

what's happening to their party. and i wonder if you might see a few of them come out and finally say what they're thinking. >> let me just say this. their silence is complicity. it is past time for these people to stand up and to speak out, jen. i mean, the democracy is at stake. what are they wait forget? not just our country but for the future of their party. >> a lot of people are feeling the anthony colee feelings today. molly jongfast and mckay copins. thank you for joining me on this memorial day. coming up donald trump continues to rage against judge juan merchan ahead of closing arguments and deliberations. here's a question. could all of those attacks come back to haunt him if and when it comes time for sentencing? two people who have been following this trial very, very closely join me next. we're back after a quick break. t we're back after a quick break

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so right now donald trump is doing exactly what you'd expect him to be doing before the conclusion of his first criminal trial, unfortunately. he's attacking everyone involved in the case including judge juan merchan. the former president targeted judge merchan in a number of rage posts over the weekend and as these attacks continue it's important to keep in mind that in the view of basically every credible expert merchan has handled this case in an incredibly fair and impartial manner. but in the warped view of donald trump merchan is of course highly conflicted and corrupt. now, obviously that's the sort of thing we have come to expect from this criminal defendant. but most criminal defendants usually refrain from attacking judges, in part because judges are the ones who issue sentences. so how might merchan take those attacks in addition to trump's

repeated violations of a gag order into account if at all? here's what former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade told politico, quote, remorse and the need to promote respect for the law are typically factors that a judge takes into consideration when imposing sentences. trump's repeated violations of the gag order certainly demonstrate the lack of remorse and respect for the law. christie greenberg is the former deputy chief of the criminal division in the southern district of new york. anna bauer is a courts correspondent for lawfair. both have been attending this trial and covering it very, very closely i think it's fair to say and both join me now. christie, let me start with you. i just read a statement from barbra mcquade and for those trying to understand how all of trump's bad behavior could impact a sentencing and again i always like to state we don't know what the jury's going to do it's up to them, how do you see it? could that impact the sentencing? >> i don't think it will. as much as this judge on a personal level probably is not a fan of donald trump. i think that's probably an

understatement at this point. i think he has to look at certain factors for sentencing. and donald trump saying nasty things about the judge personally is probably not going to be a factor that the judge will look at. the judge is going to look at the seriousness of the conduct if he's convicted that he was convicted of. he's going to look at deterrence, what is it going to take to make sure this guy doesn't offend again and do the same kind of thing, general deterrence for others. he's going to look at as barbara said violations of the gag order and promoting respect for the law. but under the gag order donald trump is allowed to attack the judge. he's allowed to attack the process. he's not allowed to attack jurors, witnesses. and so those violations of the gag order absolutely i think the judge will consider. and the lack of remorse. i think as a general matter donald trump has been fighting his case, which is his right. but once he's convicted if he is convicted and then sentenced a lack of remorse really is something that judges look at. so if he keeps this up, if he

keeps attacking the process after a conviction, yes, i do agree that is something the judge would look at at sentencing. >> what about you, anna? not to prejudge what the outcome is going to be or any potential sentence but you've also been covering and watching this judge closely. anything that you're watching or anything you think in terms of consequences or repercussions in terms of trump's actions? >> look, i think that kristy is right that the previous gag order violations probably are something that justice merchan is going to take into account. he clearly took it very seriously. trump has been held in contempt of court ten previous times. and it's also notable as well that while trump has recently been attacking the judge and alvin bragg, which he is allowed to do under the gag order, there have also been times recently at court that he's gone out and not by name but by implication has been attacking members of alvin bragg's staff, which the gag

order does in fact prohibit, specifically matthew colangelo, who used to work for the department of justice, and trump has by implication suggested that there is someone from joe biden's doj who is running this trial, a seeming reference to matthew colangelo. however, prosecutors, who have the burden of course of filing a motion to hold trump in contempt, have not taken the steps to file that motion. i think probably because we are coming up toward the end of this case. they want to keep things moving and don't want to throw another wrench in the machine by bringing up another gag order violation. but i think justice merchan is probably taking notice of these various public comments that trump continues to say in apparent violation of the gag order. >> i mean, kristy, we're near the end here, we're closer to the end than we were a few weeks ago i think it's safe to say of this trial at least. tomorrow the closing arguments

start. in your view what does the prosecution need to do and anything you're going to be particularly watching for? >> so i worked with alvin bragg when we were prosecutors at sdny. and one common technique in closing arguments, it's not always done but it's done a lot of the time and i actually think it would be good for this case is to really point out for the jury what is actually in dispute and what is not in dispute. so that they can really focus on the issues that are before them to decide. and in this case there is so much for the prosecution to point to that is actually not in dispute. things like a.m.i. working with michael cohen to catch and kill these karen mcdougal and stormy daniels stories and the planting of negative stories against donald trump's opponents and positive stories in favor of donald trump. that's something nobody has disputed in the case. the "access hollywood" tape being a crisis for the trump campaign. not in dispute. the fact that michael cohen was

discussing the karen mcdougal payment with donald trump. that's on a recording. they can't really dispute the recording says what it says. we heard it. and that the payments to stormy daniels were delayed, that michael cohen made those payments after having to take out a home equity line of credit on his house and then setting up this shell company to do it, the kind of whole secret mechanism. not in dispute. the fact that donald trump signed nine of the checks to michael cohen and that there were invoices that were attached to those checks. not in dispute. you know, they're i think going to point out all of the tweets after fbi raided michael cohen, before saying don't flip and then after he made comments that donald trump directed the payments and they were for the financial benefit of donald trump then all of a sudden the tweets donald trump put out that were attacking michael cohen. the pressure campaign beforehand and then when he flips attacking him. all of that, there's no dispute

here that that happened, and so much of that is kind of corroborating michael cohen's story and the stories of the other witnesses about what happened here. that these payments to stormy daniels were made at the direction of and the benefit of donald trump. >> i mean, there are so many details, as kristy just outlined so well, that we've learned, we knew, we've been reiterated. and we know or i think we can all expect that part of the defense's strategy is going to be to continue to attack michael cohen's credibility. what are you going to be watching for in their closing arguments tomorrow? >> right. i certainly think that in closing arguments it's all coming up cohen, so to speak, and that a big strategy for the defense is going to be attacking cohen's credibility on various fronts. they're going to attack his recollection. they're going to bring up this moment on cross-examination about that october 24th phone call to keith schiller in which cohen originally testified that

he spoke to trump about the stormy daniels hush money payment on that call. the defense, however, tried to suggest that there was another reason that cohen could have made that call. they're also going to attack his motives. they're going to say that he's profited off of making podcasts and media appearances about trump. but beyond attacking michael cohen i think that we're also going to hear a lot about causation. they're going to focus on that key element because the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that trump caused these false entries in the books of the trump organization. and i think to that end they're going to say that, you know, there are other people who were involved in this who were the real causes. for example, they could point to allen weisselberg and to the fact that allen weisselberg, the trump organization's cfo, did not testify at this trial. i think that we also will hear a lot about intent.

intent to defraud or intent to cover up the other crime. they're going to focus on the fact that it's a lot of circumstantial, not direct evidence of intent here. so those are some of the things that i'm looking for. but i do think that cohen's credibility is going to take the forefront of the strategy for the defense in the closing arguments. >> no question. before i let you go, kristy, i just want to ask you, after the closing arguments, we'll get jury instructions, o'ar the jury will get instructions from the judge. what will you be looking for in those? what will be interesting to watch? >> so this point that anna made about the causation, i'm very focused on that piece in terms of the falsification of business records. we know that donald trump wasn't in the systems of the trump organization going through general ledger entries. but you can cause somebody else to make those entries and that makes you guilty as well. if you did it indirectly. if you requested someone to do it. if you approved somebody doing it.

and the prosecutors wanted an instruction saying that, well, causing somebody to do it can be done if it's a reasonably foreseeable circumstance that those business entries would be made given that you approved kind of the reimbursement scheme as a whole. and juan merchan seemed very reluctant to give that instruction when they were having argument about this in court. we haven't seen the final version to know if that's in there. so that is one thing i'm going to be looking for because there really wasn't the direct evidence that he instructed anybody to make any particular entries in terms of the general ledger or the invoices. so that is one i'm going to be looking for. if they don't get it, i suspect the prosecutors will say, well, they were working in concert with one another and so once he gave that instruction, you know, he's essentially an accessory to this happening because he approved the general scheme. so i think they'll get around it. but it would certainly be better if they got that instruction.

we'll see if they get it. >> lots of things to watch. some different advice and views from the prosecution and defense with those jury instructions. kristy greenberg, anna bower, thank you both so much for joining me on a memorial day. appreciate it. and coming up, donald trump said he'd be telling us about his position on the abortion pill in one week. only one problem. that was a month ago. we'll talk about what his silence says and what's been happening at the state level in the meantime. but first, brand new reporting about the upside flag at justice samuel alito's home. as top democrats request a meeting with chief justice john roberts. we're back after a quick break. k with the scrubbing power of magic eraser and the cleaning power of dawn. watch it make soap scum here... disappear... and sprays can leave grime like that ultra foamy melts it on contact. magic. new ultra foamy magic eraser. hi, i'm kevin, and i've lost 152 pounds on golo. magic. (uplifting music) my biggest concern when i started golo was food. i'm a big guy and, shockingly, i like to eat. i was worried it was gonna

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the "new york times" "new york times" published two stories about the flag flying outside of two of justice samuel alito's residences. the "washington post" put out its own story about the upside down american flag that hung outside of alito's virginia home just days after the january 6th attack. a story i should note that the paper decided to sit on for over three years. according to the post, on the day of joe biden's inauguration a reporter for the paper encountered the alitos coming out of their house. marltha ann alito was visibly upset by his presence, demanding that he, could edit, get off my property. as the reporter described the information he was seeking mrs. alito yelled, "it's an international sign of distress." justice alito then intervened and directed his wife into a car. the justice denied the flag was hung upside down as a political protest, saying it stemmed from

a neighborhood dispute and indicating his wife had raised it. mrs. alito then got out of the car and shouted in apparent reference to her neighbors, "ask them what they did." after getting back in the car she exited again and then brought out from their residence a novelty flag, the type that would typically decorate a garden. she hoisted it up the flagpole. "there, is that better," she yelled. that still doesn't answer why that was the response to a neighborhood dispute. the top two democrats in the senate judiciary committee are now seeking to meet with chief justice john roberts and are asking him to ensure that justice alito recuses him from the two january 6th cases currently before the supreme -- before the court. which include trump's presidential immunity claim. much more on the crisis facing the supreme court with someone who covers them very closely after a quick break. covers themy after a quick break.

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going to vote for whoever the republican is. during oral argument you just wait for him to pounce on whoever the more liberal attorney is. he doesn't really have a worldview beyond republicans should win. so the fact that he's now putting flags up that advertise the thing that he's done from the bench for the last 18 years he's been on the supreme court, not a surprise at all. >> right. so your point, and we were just talking about this during the break, it's not just the flags. i mean, the flags are head scratchers. they're offensive. his wife's behavior is a little strange. but it's about the overlap with his worldview and how he operates. so as you look at how you've covered the cases in the courts, you just answered that he kind of is a reliable conservative voice. what other ways that he's been voting or ruling kind of should concern people? >> i would dispute your choice of word there. he's not a reliable conservative voice. >> he's a reliable trump -- >> he's a reliable republican voice. >> yeah. >> clarence thomas is a conservative voice. and like sometimes conservatism

or thomas's values leads him in a different direction than where the republican party wants to go and thomas goes where he wants to go. alito will go wherever the gop wants him to go in any case. there's empirical data on this. there's a study that looked at what are called standing questions, questions about whether a party has jurisdiction to be in federal court in the first place. 100% of the time if it's a conservative litigant he votes that yep, they've got standing. they could be in court. 100% of the time if it's a left-leaning litigant he votes no on them. so this guy, he's not really a conservative. he's just a partisan. >> yeah. definitely. correct me anytime, by the way. >> oh, sure. >> you are the expert. let me ask but john roberts. there's always hopes democrats have about john roberts doing the right thing, as many would say. there's a couple of members of the senate who want to meet with him about asking, requesting alito recuse. how will that go and how would that work even if roberts wanted to do that? can he force him to?

>> not really. the one power that the chief has over the other justices is when he is in the majority he assigns opinions. so if he were really mad at alito he could assign him a lot of crappy opinions that are really boring that no one wants to work on. but he can't force alito to recuse. realistically here, there is one point of accountability and that is the election. alito wants his republican party to win. if trump wins, there's going to be many more alitos on the courts and potentially on the supreme court. and if biden wins, then he has the opportunity to at least dilute alito's vote by appointing people who are very unlike him. >> to unpack this a little bit for people who don't follow this as closely, some of these supreme court justices are older. >> yes. >> and are likely to retire just by age in the next four-year term. >> right. >> so that could mean trump could appoint two, maybe more? >> yeah. i mean, alito is 74. thomas i believe is 75. roberts and sotomayor are both

pushing 70. and sotomayor has a chronic health condition. she's a type 1 diabetic. so like the possibility that there's going to be at least one and possibly as many as four vacancies in the next term is pretty high. and if trump gets -- especially if he gets to i appoint to replace someone like roberts, who's a more moderate conservative or sotomayor, who's an obama appointee, then we're looking at an extraordinarily right-wing court. >> and it's the model of alito. >> exactly. i mean, what i think is going to be different if there's a second trump term from the first trump term is the first term he didn't really know what he was doing. he didn't know who his friends were. now he knows like i want to appoint loyalists. kavanaugh and barrett, you know, two of his appointees to the supreme court, i mean, they're not good justices, they're very, very far to the right. but like they don't always vote the maga line. barrett in particular i think -- >> she's had some surprising moments recently. >> she's had some guns cases

that i thought she did a very sensible thing. she's a real judge. she does something other than do what her party wants her to do. trump now knows he doesn't want anyone like that on the supreme court. he wants more alitos. alito is the model for donald trump if he gets a second term. >> and the first term he basically took the federalist society list, right? and picked from that list. >> right. >> what are they doing right now? are they freak out that he's not going to pull from their list? >> i mean, possibly. the question -- the service that the federalist society provides to the republican party is that when there's like a vacancy on like a district court in idaho if you're a president you probably don't know who the good lawyers are in idaho, much less the ones who align with whatever you want to have happen. so the federalist society's service that it provides to the gop is it knows who all the lawyers are and what they believe and who is reliable. and so if trump goes to the federalist society and says i want people like alito, i want people who are going to vote lock-step for my agenda, it doesn't matter what the law

says, the federalist society is going to be able to find those people for him because that's what they do. >> that's their role. we have 30 seconds left. but in the odds of recusal by alito from the january 6th case, what do you put the odds of that at? >> i am more likely to encounter a magical unicorn as i walk out the door to your studio than alito is likely to recuse himself. >> for all the unicorn lovers out there, i consider myself one of them, that means he thinks it's very, very unlikely. >> very unlikely. >> ian millhiser, i could talk to you all night. you're so knowledgeable. it's very interesting talking to you. thank you for joining me. i appreciate it. coming up, we could have done more to fight. that's what hillary clinton said recently about democrats in the leadup to the dobbs decision. we'll talk about those comments and where the fight goes from here after a very quick break. here after a very quick break. brushed away. even a little blurry vision can distort things. and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves'

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mifepristone? his response? "well, i have an opinion on that but i'm not going to explain. i'm not going to say it yet. but i have pretty strong views on that and i'll be releasing it probably over the next week." way to keep us hanging. over the next week. well, that interview was released about a month ago. so we'll just keep waiting, i guess. in the meantime, states are continuing to act and not in a good way. in louisiana republican governor jeff landry just signed a law classifying two abortion drugs, mifepristone and miss pris tol as dangerous and controlled substances. the law is the first of its kind in the country and will make possessingthe first of its kind in the country and it will make possessing the abortion drugs without a prescription a crime punishable with jail time. join me now here at the table, president and ceo of productive freedom for all. you know so much about these issues and what is happening across the country. as were waiting for donald trump to grace us with his view on transiting steam --

mifepristone, russell waiting on the supreme court to do the same. there is a lot happening in states across the country. give us a sense of other states what is happening with mifepristone in states across the country? >> mifepristone is incredibly safe but it is important for your viewers to know that. it is safer than tylenol this is important. it is not summit new drugs. it is established and tested and saved. >> this was a judge, not the fda making the decision. >> the trump --

is a ridiculous, outlandish case what is interesting now is that it is so crazy. even big pharma weighed in. the oral arguments were actually pretty promising, fingers crossed -- >> at the supreme court. >> correct that is why you are service he states like louisiana they get in their own hands. >> other other states and verizon? >> we should watch every single state with a band. we know it is not going to stay in louisiana for the fact that i got this far and signed by the governor is really chilling. that is the goal here. you should and can get access to mifepristone in other states .

>> she has been a long time by for decades. but what she said -- >> i saw some of this firsthand. i agree with her on some point she has made and then i think, you are right. that was a huge wake-up call. not just the abortion right but

the larger gender equity movement. we have seen folks fired up and angry and doing a much more aggressive job of drawing the line between gender equity, policy and it is not just about abortion, it is about the larger ecosystem of how women are not treated as a society. when i talk about birth control , what i want folks to remember is that it was just a few decades ago, just a few generations ago that women did not have access to be saying. the underlying issue is the fight for power, control and women's bodies are our mothers were the first generation to have access to contraception's. if you have anything resembling equal access to the marketplace and the workplace this is an effort to push us back into our homes. this is something hillary clinton knows well. she was the pioneer on the front line. for the ecosystem we are in now and managing as you said for folks being an ed distant

franchise or disaffected, we have an opportunity to make it clear to women voters but also independents. male voters, young men that we are at a critical moment for donald trump and his administration eases every tool in the toolbox to really rollback fundamental freedoms. we have an opportunity and this administration has done so to advance freedoms. >> such an important contrast one of the most important things i have seen is the individual women who have dealt with their own losses or dealt with pregnancies they very much wanted. is that the most effect -- would you like to see more and more money spent on ads like that as we roll up to november? what are using is most effective in this case mark >> ever time-out the president biden versus trump, the most effective method is donald trump in his own words, bragging about overturning roe v. wade.

and then, two, painting those horror stories for telling the stories would the work that so many of these women and stories that are really hard to tell. i would like to really see many more stories of regular moms and dads who had to make tough choices. all stages of the pregnancies at all backgrounds. that is so important to great and thank you for all the work you do every day. we will be right back. back. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley power e*trade's easy to-use tools make complex trading less complicated.

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thank you so much for joining us on this memorial day and thank you to everyone who served. we have a very busy week ahead of us because closing arguments in the criminal trial are tomorrow. that means special coverage right here on msnbc. i'll be joining rachel maddow and the rest of the team for two hour special beginning at 8:00 p.m. eastern. all of the host will be at the big table, all of your legal analyst will be there to help make sense of it all. it will be a start date and we hope to see you all there. for now, stay right where you are a special dish and of the transom with katie phang starts right now. how are you doing? >> i am looking forward seeing you at the trial tomorrow. we will see how the closing arguments go. we appreciate it. we met look forward to you expanding it to all of us. as jen just said, donald trump will be back in court tomorrow morning for closing arguments in his new york election interference trial. he has been charged with 34 felony counts of falsifying business records to hide a hush money payment made to stormy daniels