you know, electrifying effect for former president trump, in the sense that him being able to discredit all of the cases against him by saying, "see, this is all just politics." doesn't mean it is. that'll be an argument that will resonate with the people who want to believe that, which, of course is his base and the people already voting for him. >> he'll use it as a cudgel. it's the thin slice of independents, the swing voters, will it impact them. we'll see. we've never been here before, and we'll all find out together. chief white house correspondent for "the new york times," peter baker, thank you. we'll talk on "morning joe." thanks for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. because freedom has never been guaranteed. every generation has to earn it. fight for it. defend it in battle between autocracy and democracy. between the greed of a few and the rights of many.

it matters. our democracy is more than a system of government. it's the very soul of america. it's how we've been able to constantly adapt through the centuries. it is why we've always emerged from every challenge stronger than we went in. it's how we've come together as one nation united. just as our fallen heros have kept the element of faith with our democracy, we must keep faith with them. because of them, all of them, we stand here today. we will never forget that. we will never, ever, ever stop working to make a more perfect union, in which they live and which they died for. that was their problem. that's our promise. that's our promise today to them and our promise always. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, may 28th. that was president biden marking

memorial day at arlington national cemetery with a somber message about freedom, democracy, and honoring those who have made the ultimate sacrifice for our country. it certainly is a day for reflection across the country. >> really is. it's a special day. it's long been a special day for public servants who focused on those who have given their all, given their lives to this country. that's something that donald trump has said and told a general who was his chief of staff. he didn't understand that concept. why would anybody -- >> right. >> -- give their all for america? of course, maybe that's why he marked memorial day by blasting, well, anybody who was opposed to him in various legal proceedings against him. in a post yesterday morning, trump wrote, in part, quote, "happy memorial day to all, including the human scum that

are working so hard to destroy our" -- you know, i want to stop there, willie. he attacks judges. he attacks the woman that he was -- >> sexual abuse. >> did all of that. it just reminds me that on a somber day like that, just reminds me of what was said by ken burns at brandeis university, where he was talking to the students. he told them, you know, how america came to be, how it is striving to be a more perfect union, just like president biden said, but he said choose values over vulgarity. sadly, a lot of americans are not following that basic advice and the basic values of being

patriotic and being a good citizen to this country. you've got to look to people who use holidays, whether it's christmas or whether, you know, it's thanksgiving or whether it is memorial day, a sacred day like memorial day, for america to attack, quote, human scum. defined by donald trump as anybody who doesn't support him. >> yeah, that was an extraordinary commencement address by ken burns at brandeis. we'll play some of that coming up in a little bit. >> it was. >> so much in there. so much to say about our country, where we are, where we're headed, where we've been. he is a good student of history. but, joe, what's disconcerting, i think, most about it as a phenomena we've seen develop the last decade or so, is the people who laugh or cheer on the show. even yesterday, those posts, they view it as some kind of a troll. it'll upset us, and we'll talk

about it today. even on the day where they call themselves patriots, a lot of those people, but a day he takes to make about himself, his own sacrifice, on memorial day, his own sacrifice and martyrdom. it is always about him. to the point you made earlier, he asked in the same conversation, according to general kelly, looking at those headstones, what was in it for them? why would you give your life for america? why would you give your life in defense of freedom around the world? what was in it for them? he genuinely, sincerely, deeply at his core does not understand the sacrifice of the military, the sacrifice of people who put their lives on the line for the country. >> nope. >> it's part of who he is. we saw it on display again yesterday. we talk about this contrast. look at the president of the united states at arlington. a place that gives anybody who has a patriotic bone in their body or a human bone in their body chills just to walk through and look at those headstones. then look at what his opponent in this election was doing

yesterday. there's your contrast right there. it wasn't just former president trump. it was his son, eric, getting some well-deserved backlash over his social media post after one user posted a photo of the trump family with the caption, quote, "the family that gave up everything to save america. thank you." >> oh, my gosh, no. >> this is over memorial day weekend. >> eric trump reposted writing, "and we will do it again." adam kinzinger of illinois, a military pilot, responded, quote, "your family has sacrificed nothing. your name will be synonymous with benedict arnold." and how dare you tweet this this weekend. you don't know the first thing about service, you child." this is after eric posted a memorial day promotion for the trump store writing, "we are honoring our brave men and women this weekend. please buy our stuff."

he's since deleted the post, but the website is still promoting the memorial day sale. there it is all in one place. >> there it is, the contrast, if anyone needed one. along with joe, willie, and me, the host of "way too early," bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. jonathan heilemann, a columnist at puck, is with us. and pulitzer prize winning presidential historian jon meacham. john is out with a book entitled, "the call to serve, the life of an american president, george herbert walker bush." we'll get into it a little later and maybe a little now, too. >> john, i briefly wanted you to talk to us about this memorial day, the contrast. what we've heard from president trump's own staff members about

him being completely baffled by service to one's country in the military, by the loss of life, basically calling those who were killed losers. i want to ask you, again, the contrast not just between joe biden and donald trump, but between donald trump and every president that's ever served this country before when we get to this point. i must say, too, the people who we have discussed before in their little fleece vests who, we talk about it for money, them supporting trump because they think they'll make more money. it is ridiculous because the dao dow is at 40,000. this is something else i've never been able to figure out. the very people who spent their entire life beating their chest

self-righteously about their patriotism, telling the left that they don't love america, america love it or leave it. these are the very people supporting a man who denigrates the memory of those who have served and sacrificed all for america. again, we're not shocked by anything donald trump says. we're not shocked by anything he says anymore. we are shocked by those we know. >> yeah. >> who watch this man denigrate the memory of the fallen and happily support him, happily vote for him, happily turn the country back over to him. >> yeah. i think about this as you do all the time. i think part of it is this odd decision that a lot of people have made, that politics and

trump is really about the contest and not about the substance. it's about winning at any cost. there is a suspension of reason, of history, of custom, of the values that you're talking about, that many of these folks have embodied, but, somehow or another, when you move into the realm of trump, it's as if depravity has been appealed. >> yes. >> that's the decision they've made as part of this perennial struggle now that has become politics as this form of really a sick kind of entertainment. i was thinking, obviously, about president bush. on his 18th birthday 100 years ago, well, 82 years ago, joins the, you know -- graduates from

andover, gets in a car, drives to boston where he takes an oath as a naval cadet. he considered joining the royal air force in canada because you could be a pilot before you were 18. cut to the first gulf war. he is watching cnn upstairs in the study, and he starts to cry. the only time he ever saw his father cry was when he put george bush on the train at penn station to go off to world war ii. maybe that sounds sentimental, the winds of war meets tom brokaw, but it happened. it happened not that long ago. for so many people to suspend those values is something they're going to have to answer for forever. the good news is, there's time. there's time to reestablish those values. >> all right. closing arguments are

scheduled to begin this morning in donald trump's criminal hush money trial. the defense will go first with trump attorney todd blanche expected to spend several hours on his summation argument. he'll try to convince the jury the government did not meet its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, that trump not only falsified business records but also had an intent to defraud that included, quote, an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof. the profession cushion will follow blanche, reminding jurors they can trust the paperwork they've seen and the witnesses they've heard from. the arguments could take up most of the day. once finished, there will be no rebuttals. judge juan merchan will then give the jury its instructions, which is expected to last about an hour. that could happen tomorrow. let's bring in former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent

lisa rubin and former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. lisa, i'll start with you. from covering it inside the courthouse, what are you going to be watching for, what can we expect today specifically from each side's closing arguments? >> mika, today, one of the things i'm going to be looking for is how todd blanche constructs a narrative out of what usually is a hole poking. when you're the defense, what you really want to do is try and create doubt in the juror's minds about the narrative they've heard. todd blanche will spend a lot of time saying that these legal invoices and the other documentation of the repayment scheme, they're not actually false because, in fact, michael co appointed as the personal attorney for donald trump. he did, in fact, perform legal services, and it wasn't incorrect for these documents to then refer to the payments as for legal expenses or retainment.

you can only do that sort of hole poking for so long. how todd blanche turns that exercise into a coherent, cohesive narrative that the jurors follow and eagerly is something i'm interested in seeing. on the other side, josh steinglass' job is less about feelings and more about facts. it is to convince the jury that everything they've seen fits together neatly, like a jigsaw puzzle. he has elicited evidence over these last six weeks, sometimes from disparate time periods or people who don't go together. now is the time for them to connect the dots in the ultimate way, chronologically, methodically, and, most importantly, without very much reliance on michael cohen. they want to show the jury they don't need michael cohen to prove their case. there are a couple episodes where michael cohen's testimony stands alone and unrebutted.

anyone else in the room has not taken the stand or wasn't called to the stand. for the most part, all of the evidence in the case comes from other sources, too, from people like david pecker and hope hicks. from a series of documents that range from the allegedly falsified documents themselves to phone records and emails and texts. there is a mountain of evidence in the case. it is josh steinglass' job to convince the jury that there's a lot of it and it came from michael cohen. >> can we talk about the mechanics of what we'll see today? >> sure. >> because there is a new york state criminal trial, the defense goes first. prosecution gets the last word. it's not what we've seen in other places or people are used to seeing in the mmovies. donald trump says it is unfair, a witch hunt. we should point out, this is not unique to donald trump. this is new york state criminal court. why do they do it that way, and how does it impact what the jury hears effectively? >> the best case for new york

state doing it this year, the prosecution bears the burden of proof. they get to go last. if your burden is to show byond a reasonable doubt these crimes were committed, it makes sense you get the ultimate say about what happened here. it is a shame that donald trump's good lawyers in the case, and i want to be clear, i think susan necheles and todd blanche are good laylawyers, dit have the opportunity to consult with their client and explain how today works and to make the process seem as if he is being singled out, when this is what every defendant in new york state faces. >> let's get your preview of today, joyce. what do you think the top key arguments each side needs to make as they try to sway jurors? >> right. so, you know, at the end of every closing argument by a defendant, if you don't have a little bit of real reasonable doubt in your mind listening to

the argument, the defense hasn't done its job. i think that's what we'll hear from the defense when they go first. their job is to raise questions, to poke holes in this edifice of evidence that the government constructs throughout a trial. some of the most important arguments will center on michael cohen and his credibility. in this ways, there are strong circumstantial evidence. we'll hear the people of the state of new york talk about that in their closing argument, but the defense will have an argument, if michael cohen isn't credible, the mountain of evidence is built on a platform that can't hold it up. michael cohen's credibility will be front and center in their argument, and they'll also, along the edges of the argument, point out he was providing legal services, that these paper records don't meet the technical elements of fraudulent records. when it is the people's turn,

they'll come back with this argument. they'll argue that proof beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't depend on any one piece of evidence. it is all of the evidence taken together. they constructed an immaculate case. as we discussed while the trial was ongoing, they corroborated as much of michael cohen's testimony as they could before he took the stand. we'll hear them remind jurors of whose testimony they've forgotten. they testified weeks ago, starting with david pecker. this is an important process that prosecutors go through at the end of a trial. it is memory reconstruction. telling the jurors, don't rely on our memory. rely on yours. here's what happened at the beginning of this trial. they'll layer evidence upon evidence, to say, you know, the holes the defense tried to poke in our case, they're only one or two pieces deep, but other evidence corroborates. for instance, donald trump's willingness to engage in a crime

that was designed to cover up or commit other crimes. at the end of the people's argument, they will tell the jury that proof beyond reasonable doubt doesn't depend on any one piece of evidence or any one witness. it depends on all of the evidence pilt together and that there's too much here to ignore. strong, direct, and circumstantial evidence of donald trump's heilemann, on "way too early," which was seen by a larger share of audience than anything, going back to the beatles debut on ed sullivan, in the column, he told us about the report, that if donald trump is convicted in new york, that the biden team is going to start using that possibly even in social media, talking about convicted felon donald trump.

joe biden, who hasn't spoken yet about this trial will start speaking about it. jonathan lemire reports it'll be after the verdict. now, you and i, i think we both believe that up until now, all of these charges, the constrictions in the other cases, have actually helped donald trump with the space, not really persuaded people. what do you think of jonathan l lamiere's reporting? will it have an impact, from what you've seen. >> this is the no man's land to all this. we have no idea. no one has the fainted clue of what the psychic political effects on the very small pool

of persuadable voters in the very small number of states on which this election will turn, what impact it will have. jonathan's reporting is consistent with what i have heard. there's no doubt that the biden campaign, if he is convicted, the campaign is going to start labeling donald trump a convicted felon. trump will appeal this verdict for sure. he will almost certainly not be put behind bars between now and november. that matters to some people. there's polling to suggest those voters we're talking about, seeing trump not just convicted but imprisoned is different than seeing him convicted. he is going to appeal. he is almost certainly not going to go to jail. the biden campaign will call him a convicted felon. whether joe biden does that once, more than once, we don't know the answer to that yet. but we're talking about such a small number of voters. you know, in a world where almost everyone has an opinion about this case, this is a case that the actions in question

took place in 2006 and 2016. everyone in the world, we think, has a firmly set view about donald trump, stormy daniels, michael cohen, the payments, this, that, the other thing. there is some small number of people in the country who haven't decided what they think about the election, think about this case, and convicted felon could move a very small but crucial number of them. that's one of the things the biden campaign is not going to leave to chance. they're going to rightly call donald trump a convicted felon if he is a convicted felon. >> to this point, of course, the president hasn't spoken about the trials because he doesn't want to be seen as interfering. that'll continue for the three outstanding trials. the classified documents, the federal january 6th, and the case in georgia. the president and his team aren't going to speak about those. my reporting is that once we get a verdict here, the president and the timing of this is fluid, of course, but the president will make some remarks. first from a government and white house perspective, we need to respect the outcome.

the legal system has worked. he'll do that whether guilty, acquittal, or hung jury. if there is a conviction, willie, he'll lean into it a little bit. the social media campaign will do the convicted felon donald trump, at least from time to time. the president himself will make the argument now and then that this is further evidence that donald trump is unfit for office. look at the lengths he will go to to look out for himself and not you, the american people. they understand this is not going to be a major issue. they don't spend as much time on this as abortion, the foreign wars, the economy, things that impact the american people more than this proceeding. some in biden world think once trump has to be out there more, it's a bad thing for trump. they think he's benefitted from being off the road. we'll see about that. certainly, the biden campaign believes that debates about a month from now been a much more

significant event than whatever the verdict is here. even if it moves a few voters. >> let's talk about the coming verdict, lisa. viewer's guide for our msnbc audience. what should we expect today? it sounds like you get defense in the morning, closing argument, perhaps prosecution this afternoon, jury instructions tomorrow, if they're in court? >> we will be in court tomorrow, and i would expect to hear jury instructions tomorrow. sometimes you have judges who will set time limits on each side's ability to set up. that's not what we have here. each side advised judge merchan they expect to take several hours in summing up. i would expect we'll see jury instructions tomorrow. then the jury goes immediately to their deliberations. we will stay in the courthouse, msnbc and nbc news, ready for any verdict as soon as it comes. willie, you and john know, we have no idea how long that'll

take. trying to assess whether the length of time that the jury is out means one result or another is also sometimes a fool's errand, as joyce can tell you well. >> wow. >> msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin and former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you, both. we'll be seeing you both a lot this week. thank you so much. still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump was repeatedly booed and heckled during an appearance at the libertarian national convention. we're going to show you some of that, how he responded, and be joined by the former chairman of the libertarian national committee, as well. plus, republican senator tim scott gives another vague answer when asked whether he will certify the 2024 election results no matter who wins. we're back in 90 seconds.

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government overreach and root out corruption in politics. when the crowd continued to boo, trump quickly turned on them. >> as everyone knows, it'll be my great honor to pardon the peaceful january 6th protesters or, as i often call them, the hostages. they're hostages. there has never been a group of people treated so harshly or unfairly in our country's history. this abuse will be rectified and rectified very quickly. the libertarian party should nominate trump for president of the united states. [ crowd booing ] whoa, that's nice. that's nice. only if you want to win. only if you want to win. maybe you don't want to win. maybe you don't want to win.

thank you. no, only do that if you want to win. if you want to lose, don't do that. keep getting your 3% every four years. we're asking that of the libertarians, we must work together, combine with us. we cannot give crooked joe biden four more years. we can not give crooked joe biden four more years. if we unite, we are unstoppable. i will be a true friend to libertarians in the white house. [ crowd booing ] deroy murdoch, who i've become friends with, wrote an article yesterday in which he mentions just some of the things that make me a libertarian without even trying to be one. that's nice. or you can keep going the way

you have for the last long decades and get your 3% and meet again, get another 3%. no, you want to be winners. it's time to be winner. you have a lot of common sense. it's time to be winners. i'm asking for the lib -- well, think of it. >> wow. >> all right. libertarian party. >> he brought in some of his supporters. they were actually there. their cheers obviously drowned out by all the boos. >> the party ultimately nominated activist chase oliver for president, who did not mince words, speaking about donald trump. >> i got started opposing neocon war criminals, and we had a neocon war criminal on our stage a few minutes ago. you are not a libertarian, donald trump. you are a war criminal, and you deserve to be shamed by everyone in this hall. >> john heilemann, your latest piece for puck is entitled "the r.f.k. jr. big short."

a close look at donald trump and r.f.k. jr.'s cringe-inducing, partly hilarious, and failed forays into libertarian land. tell us about it. especially about the r.f.k. factor. >> mika, you have both the guys, both interlopers at the libertarian convention in washington. people are paying attention, obviously, because the election will be so close. trump down there trying to get non-traditional, non-maga voters. he is appealing to them. kennedy was seen as angling for something different, which was to actually get -- really needing the libertarian nomination because he would immediately get ballot access in 38 states. the libertarian party is the third biggest political party in the country. kennedy is trying to get on the ballots. both made complete asses of themselves over the weekend. you saw trump say, make me your

nominee, right? that was on saturday night. on sunday morning when they went into session to actually decide who was going to be the libertarian nominee, the chair started the day by saying, trump can't be put into nomination. they didn't file the appropriate paperwork. immediately, trump was tossed off. the campaign had not done -- having begged for the endorsement the night before, for the nomination the night before, it turned out trump couldn't even be nominated if anybody wanted to nominate him. i'll tell you exactly how much they wanted to nominate him, though. he got six write-in votes, putting him under 1% in the first round of voting. kennedy, who was trying harder to get the nomination, got his name put in the nomination. he ended up getting a few more votes in that first round of voting, about 2% of the total. also, he was eliminated from consideration. i will tell you what this says more than anything, and, joe, i know you'll know as a student of

these things, what i mean when i say this, neither one of these guy it is a libertarian. whatever you think about libertarians, apparently, the libertarians saw they didn't want to nominate either of two dudes who have nothing to do with libertarianism. >> absolutely nothing. john mecum, i'm wondering, we can look at that and obviously see that donald trump and r.f.k. jr. didn't have much luck. you don't need a whole lot of luck, though, with third-party candidates if we're talking about r.f.k. changing history. talk about 1968 with wallace. nixon prevailing there, of course. we could talk about 1992. the bush family still says bill clinton won in '92 because of ross perot, as you know very well. they'll still tell you that. 2000, it was ralph nader's 2% or 3% that beat al gore.

he would have been president had ralph nader not taken those couple percentage points from him. 2016, of course, it was jill stein, the green party candidate, that took enough votes from hillary clinton. just think about this. but for ralph nader and jill stein, there would not have been a republican in the white house over the past 32 years. but for ralph nader and jill stein, the last republican victory for president of the united states would have been in 1988. >> right. >> wow. >> yeah. you can't be for democracy only when your will prevails. we'll stipulate that they can run. these are the rules of the road. >> of course. >> but the voters, however, have an obligation to weigh reality,

right? it's not just -- this connects with what we were talking about. this isn't a reality show. it's not laser tag. it's not, you know, political call of duty. you know, this is reality. the way the american system has developed is we have two big choices in the country. it is a duopoly. there are issues with that. we can talk about that forever. but the reality is, these are the choices we have. you have to compare and contrast. you know, we were talking about such de minimis numbers of folks who decide these elections now. it's a handful of people in seven or eight states. anything that distracts from that stark choice can, as you say, produce a result that, interestingly, is radically

different from what that third party voter wants. so it is against the third-party voter's interest to vote for that third party. now, they don't see it that way, but that is, in fact, the case. if you voted for ralph nader, were you really delighted by what happened from 2001 to 2009? if you voted for jill stein, were you thrilled by donald trump? i don't think so. it's the obligation of citizenship, which sounds grand, but it's true. >> our thanks this morning to john heilemann for being on. thank you. coming up on "morning joe," we're going to talk to jon meacham more about his brand-new, visual tribute to the life of president george h.w. bush. donald trump will be right back.

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burns delivered the commencement speech at brandeis university, clips of which drew attention on social media over the weekend. here's why. burns spoke about the nation's idealogical divide and what's at stake this november. >> the old testament, ecclesiastes, got it right, i think. what has been will be again. what has been done will be done again. there is nothing new under the sun. what those lines suggest is that human nature never changes or almost never changes. we continually superimpose that complex and contradictory human nature over the seemingly random chaos of events. all our weaknesses are greed and generosity, virtue, parade before the eyes, generation after generation after generation. this often givers us the impression that history repeats

itself. it does not. no event has ever happened twice. it just rhymes, mark twain is supposed to have said. i have spent all of my professional life on the lookout for those rhymes, drawn to that power of history. richard powers wrote, the best arguments in the world -- and, ladies and gentlemen, that's all we do, is argue -- won't change a single person's point of view. the only thing that can do that is a good story. i've been struggling for most of my life to do that. to try to tell good, complex, sometimes contradictory stories, appreciating nuance and subtlety and undertow, sharing the confusion and consternation of unreconciled opposites. it's clear as individuals and as a nation we are dialectically

preoccupied. every is right or wrong, blue state or red state, young or old, gay or straight, rich or poor, palestinian or israeli, we my way or the highway. everywhere, we are trapped by these old, tired, binary reactions, assumptions, and certainties. for film makers and facfaculty, students and citizens, that preoccupation is imprisoning. i've had the privilege for nearly half a century of making films about the u.s., but i've also made films about us. that is to say, the two-letter, lower case, plural pronoun. all of the intimacy of us and also we and our and all of the majesty, complexity, contradiction, and even controversy of the u.s. and if i have learned anything

over those years, it's that there is only us. there is no them. and whenever someone suggests to you, whomever it may be in your life, that there's a them, run away. othering is the simplistic, binary way to make and identify enemies, but it is also the surest way to your own self-imprisonment. which brings me to a moment i've dreaded and forces me to suspend my longstanding attempt at neutrality. there is no real choice this november. there is only the perpetuation, however flawed and feeble you might perceive it, of our fragile 249-year-old experiment, or the entropy that will engulf of and destroy us if we take the other route. when, as mercy otis warren would say, the checks of conscience are thrown aside and a deformed

picture of the soul is revealed. the presumptive republican nominee is the opioids, an easy cure for what some believe is the solution for our myriad pains and problems. when, in fact, with him, you end up re-enslaved with a bigger problem, a worse infliction and addiction, a bigger dilution, as james baldwin would say, the author of our national existence, our national suicide as mr. lincoln prophesied. do not be seduced by equal -- we are at an existential crossroads in our political and civic lives. this is a choice that could not be clearer. >> ken burns delivering the commencement address at brandeis university. ken burns, like jon meacham,

taking the large view, the long view of history, and delivering a powerful address that culminated with a commentary about what's happening in our country today, where we may be about to be going, and making a plea to the young people in that room but also to the audience that's going to see it larger than that, that this is, from a man who has soe perspective on these things given his life's work, is pivotal moment. >> it is. the root of memorial day, and the word memorial is memory. you wonder in listening to ken's speech over the weekend at brandeis, you wonder, is our memory so fleeting that we have forgotten about something else that ken mentioned? one of the greatest stories in history, the story of america. the formation of america. we remember ronald reagan in 1984 talking about it is mourning in america. now, the reality is many people

walking around probably wondering, is it twilight in america because of all the divisions in this country? i think we exaggerate the divisions because we are all americans, but the idea that this country is so filled with, as he pointed out, right, left, red state, blue state, we are all americans. whether we came here from pakistan or vietnam, whether our parents came from ireland or germany or italy, we are all americans. the idea that we seem to be loosening or maybe even losing that grip that ties us together as americans and one common purpose, to continue to pursue freedom, not only for our children but our grandchildren, the idea we're losing that is horrifying. it is beyond horrifying. it's a tragedy. we've got to come to grips with ourselves, really, to stop hating each other, to have a conversation with each other. i have no idea the percentage of americans who don't even know their neighbors, who have never

been in their neighbor's home. i have no idea of the number of children who missed so much because of covid, no matter what their age. missed first grade, second grade, high school graduations, and have become isolated from one another in our fear of the future. the future we measure now by a week's paycheck, by a month's paycheck. where are we going? we've got to be told again and again the story of america, the real story of america. >> jon meacham, i love the part -- and it spoke to me so much because it was a great concern mika and i have been talking about over time. not about who wins or loses this fall but -- which obviously concerns us -- but just the challenges that are before us and before americans. as ken said, we are imprisoned by our own binary reactions,

presumptions, and prejudices. people just, again, simplifying things, stripping it down, not understanding the complexities. like you and i have talked about, just running to whatever tribe they've picked. you look at a.i. the grave challenges that that poses on the existential scale, the humanity, but also the threats to working americans and jobs going away. you look at global warming. the evidence grows by the day. we're not doing anything significant about that. you look at people's sense of safety when they're walking through large cities. the fact that they can't get enough police officers. people don't want to be police officers anymore, not enough if

you ask the lapd, if you ask the philadelphia police department. there are these huge challenges. well, and you have vladimir putin on the march in ukraine, again, because people didn't look at the issue, as americans have since world war ii, freedom versus tyranny. they looked at it tribally. mike johnson held up aid because donald trump told him to hold up aid, and other republicans who were always cold warriors just completely collapsed because they have this binary vision of america. it has nothing to do with ideology. i mean, you have voted for republican presidents in your life. i sure have voted for a lot of republican presidents in my life. dr. brzezinski endorsed republican presidents during his lifetime. it's not a binary choice. you look at who is best for

america. now, everything is divided, not by ideas, not by ideology, but the tribalism where, on one side, you have a president praising those and the memory of those who gave their lives for america, and on the other side, a vile president, former president, who is vile when he talks about the fallen, saying he doesn't get it. what was in it for them to defend their country? and decides to write on memorial day, instead of lifting up those who gave their all for america, attacking those who oppose him by calling them human scum. let's talk about ken burns, what ken burns said and how we move back, actually, to that -- >> can we?

>> -- sort of promised land. >> well, i think we could do a lot worse than listening to what ken said, what mike said, what you just said. reality is not binary, but the choice we face is. that's an irony in all of this. i go back to this tension between what is patriotism and what is nationalism? patriotism classically understood is allegiance to an idea. the idea of america, however imperfectly realized, is all men are created equal. men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. that's our mission statement. the constitution, as has been said, is our user's guide. we've lived out of compliance a hell of a lot more years with that mission statement than we have in compliance, but at least we keep trying to get there.

nationalism, roughly understood, is just an allegiance to people who look like you. to people who worship the same god. to people who share the same ethnic characteristics. and that is a fundamental, vital, defining difference in how cultures organize themselves. are we loyal to an idea that sometimes means i'd rather -- i have to give as opposed to take, which is not part of human nature, right? since the third chapter of genesis, it's been more fun to take than to give, right? but democracy, american democracy as it has unfolded, is about giving as well as taking, and seeing each other as neighbors. you know, without that, then politics is a total war.

it's the law of the jungle. it's going to keep unfolding in this disastrous way. >> i love what you said. america is an idea. as general haden has said on this show before, america is a creed. you raise your right hand, you swear an oath to america, and you be become an american citizen. i've said this before. i think it is beautiful. my family has been in this country, i don't know, we kind of get lost going back in the 1700s. we've been here, like 300 years. today, someone will raise their right hand today, i don't know, maybe from indonesia, maybe from pakistan, maybe from denmark, doesn't matter where they come

from. they raise their right hand, they take that oath of allegiance to this country, and they become every bit as much of an american as anybody in my family that's been here for centuries. now, if you don't see the beauty in that and if you don't understand how different that is, even from britain or france or spaincountries, when you open your mouth and talk, even in britain, people know everything about you and they judge you, in large part, because of your accent, where you're from, your schooling. in america, lift your hand, make an allegiance to the oath of the

united states of america, and you, my friend, are an american. that is a simple beauty that donald trump will never understand. >> we'll be right back. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him. good game. thanks for coming to our clinic, first one's free. smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have

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a lot of republicans have been refusing to commit to accepting the election results in 2024. you haven't done so yet. let me ask you it this way, you will be a sitting united states senator in january of 2025.

will you vote to certify the election no matter who wins? >> well, certainly. we expect a fair and honest election. as a result of that expectation, we will certify the election and certify president donald trump as our 47th president. >> okay. republican senator tim scott on whether he'd accept the results of the 2024 presidential election. earlier this month, willie, senator scott dodged the question several times during an appearance on "meet the press." they just can't -- i guess they're just really wanting that veep job, huh? >> i guess so. it is such a sad spectacle to watch this parade of men and women just pledge their fealty by saying, "i may violate the constitution if joe biden wins. i may not vote to certify it because i want to make donald trump happy." i know senator scott is well-liked on capitol hill by

people on both sides of the aisle, supposed to be a good guy, but this is truly pathetic. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, may 28th. jonathan lemire and jon meacham are still with us. joining the conversation, we have pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. and chief white house correspondent for the united states, peter baker. mike barnicle is here, as well. our top story this hour, israel is facing widespread international condemnation for striking a tent camp that was housing displaced palestinians in rafah. according to the gaza health ministry, at least 45 people were killed in sunday's air strike. that was the deadliest incident in southern gaza city since israel began its offensive there earlier this month. the idf claims two hamas militants were killed in the

attack, and many measures were taken beforehand to minimize harm to civilians. now, prime minister netanyahu is calling the strike a tragic incident. he made the comment while addressing parliament yesterday, saying there will be an investigation. meanwhile, two u.s. officials tell "axios" the biden administration is looking into whether the attack violates the president's red line. earlier this month, biden threatened to suspend the delivery of some weapons if israel entered population centers in rafah. >> obviously, there has been this conflict. i do think it is important for us to note here that, again, we've talked about the united states and the kill ratio of enemy combatants to civilians, and you certainly could look at us and any other major country that fought wars. you'd be hard pressed to say

that israel has a higher rate of civilian casualties to enemy combatants than the united states. i remember back, peter baker, you know, drone strikes going after al qaeda time and again. whether it was killing most of zouhiri's family while he escaped, whether it was killing americans in drone strikes, certainly not justifying what was going on in rafah. i understand there is a red line there. i am just making sure we're not hypocritical, suggesting that somehow what israel is doing in warfare is different than what every other country does in warfare. that said, this obviously has to amp up tensions between joe biden and benjamin netanyahu, does it not? >> yeah. certainly does, obviously. it doesn't come at a good time for prime minister netanyahu. certainly not going to convince

the international court, which is considering whether to issue arrest warrants for war crimes, that israel is, in fact, exercising restraint in the way that the international court would like it to do and that the biden administration would like it to do. now, for the biden administration, for president biden, the red line that he has laid down has been kind of fuzzy. we haven't really seen exactly what he means by that. what he's said in general is that they don't want the israelis to go into rafah in a big way that would cause inordinate amount of civilian casualties and would prevent aid from flowing to people who need it. they've said so far, up until now, the limit of strikes in rafah has not crossed that line. israel has, in fact, been more restrained in the way it came to rafah than how they originally said they would. there have been a million people taking refuge there. the belief is the majority of those have left at this point.

obviously, this attack on, you know, a tent of mostly civilian people, 45 dead, is the kind of thing that president biden was talking about, the kind of thing he wanted to avoid. whether or not netanyahu has a second thought to this, we don't know, but it is terrible timing in terms of figuring out what the american position will be on this sort of, you know, limited rafah incursion we've seen so far. it is not limited to the people in that tent. >> jonathan lemire, the images coming out of this camp are truly horrifying. women, children, civilians, refugees, frankly, some of them incinerated in this attack. if this doesn't cross the red line, i guess the question could be asked by some, what does the red line mean? is there really a red line? if it, in fact, has been crossed in this case or will be crossed at some point in the future, what does that mean in terms of the united states' willingness

to support israel or withdraw some of its support? what is the red line at this point? >> it has been, to peter's point, vague. you'll recall, when the president issued this warning about a red line a few weeks ago, it was about a full-on military operation in rafah. that hasn't happened yet. obviously, the other part was to limit civilian casualties. the strike was truly horrific. images flooding social media the last couple days are too much to bear. the white house and national security council are meeting this week about what happens next. to this point, prime minister netanyahu has, frankly, resisted most of president biden's calls to show restraint. there are some in the white house who would argue the fact they haven't gone into rafah yet is proof that the president's warnings have workworked, at le somewhat. they also point to israel's -- the fact they've had to go back into the northern part of gaza shows their strategy simply isn't working. we seem to be at an inflection point, mike barnicle, as to what happens with this relationship between president biden and prime minister netanyahu.

the prime minister made clear, we're going to keep going after hamas and not going to stop, even if we have to fight it alone. the president has said, you know, he's not cutting all aid to israel, but he'd stop perhaps offensive weapons. we'll see if he takes another step. what's your read on it? >> well, you would think that that is a reoccupation within the white house right now, today and every day. peter baker, my question to you is twofold, actually. do you get the sense from talking to people in the white house, your sources who you speak to regularly, that bibi netanyahu in a very real sense is running against joe biden to try to defeat his presidency? the other aspect of it is, within the white house, the coordination between the american military in terms of counsel and advice to the idf, the israeli defense forces, do you get the sense, any sense at all, that from this side of the ocean, in washington, d.c., looking at tel-aviv and the government and the way this war is being run, that the idf is

somewhat incompetent in managing this operation? >> well, look, on the first point, i think in their darker moments, certainly you hear white house officials, national security officials, wondering whether or not netanyahu is dealing on the up and up with president biden and whether, in fact, he is trying to sabotage the president's re-election campaign. or whether, in fact, he is trying to preserve his own political domestic viability by using biden as a foil. netanyahu has a fragile right-wing coalition running israel right now, in collaboration with some of his enemies in the war cabinet. he is playing the coalition saying, in effect, i'm the one person standing up to biden, resisting his calls for a two-state solution. i'm the one person who is continuing to press our campaign against hamas regardless of international pressure, led by the president. remember, the president, of course, said he was holding back the one shipment of bombs, 3,500

bombs a few weeks back. there's no question there are politics involved here. in their darkest moments, the white house officials are quite, you know, upset about it and quite, in fact, cynical about it. at the same time, the president wants to continue to find ways to work with israel. >> all right. meanwhile, gene, i'd love your thoughts on this. former president trump reportedly said he will deport students who participate in pro-palestinian protests if he is re-elected. according to "the washington post," trump made this promise in a private meeting with donors on may 14th after a supporter complained about the protesters. he pledged to throw pro-palestinian demonstrators out of the country, calling them part of a radical revolution. he vowed to defeat. >> gene, let's see -- >> is anyone left? >> free speech. >> yeah. >> first amendment. >> there's that. >> right to assembly.

>> mm-hmm. >> i mean, all these -- all these constitutional guarantees. >> little details to him, i guess. >> little details, yeah. >> as ken burns was talking about, it's not binary. if you are a palestinian, if you are someone who has lost family members studying in the united states, if you're deeply troubled by what's going on there, on both sides, on a multitude of sides, you have a right to peacefully assemble and peacefully protest -- >> well. >> -- and donald trump is saying, well, no, forget the first amendment. we'll just throw you out of the country. >> well, you have that right now, joe. >> exactly. >> who knows how long you have that right because donald trump doesn't believe it exists, and he says he is going to crush the protests and going to deport any

non-citizen protesters. i guess he specified non-citizens. he just said he was going to deport protesters. that's amazing. that should be required reading in every single college encampment that still exists in protests of the biden administration's approach to the war. really be careful what you wish for. anything you do to hurt joe biden's chances of winning this election is going to be calamitous for the palestinians and for our rights here in the united states. i've got to say something about the rafah attack. it just seems to me, i mean, this is really horrific. it seems to me that if there is a red line, this is clearly crossing it. you know, thinking about it, i

mean, this really sort of interrogates the israeli theory of this war. they were going after two hamas guys. in the process, they killed 45 people. in addition to the two hamas guys that they were going after. this idea that you can kind of go through the civilian population -- and i know hamas uses people as human shields. i know that hamas is hiding behind them. but this is -- it leads to incidents and scenes like this. this was a tragic incident or accident, and it will be investigated. but this is really their theory of the war, that you kind of go through this civilian population. again, being used as human

shields, in order to get to hamas. in the end, how are you going to wipe out hamas? i just think the goal was an unrealistic goal to begin with. >>hamas, but you're going to wipe out every one? you're going to go through a civilian population of 2 million to do it? that was never going to work. >> it certainly doesn't help with the fate of the hostages, for sure. >> no. >> it appears the one thing israel keeps saying, benjamin netanyahu himself, is we'll investigate that later. we'll investigate that later. there's a lot of investigating later going on, and this adds a whole new dimension to it. so -- >> and i have to say, on the hostages -- >> i can't. >> it seems they're not even second on the list. >> not even a part of this. >> for netanyahu, not even third on the list. >> written off? >> the hostages have been

basically written off by benjamin netanyahu. >> that's what it feels like. i don't understand what the strategy is and if they are considered a part of the solutions that israel wants to get to. bring the hostages home to those families that are in unspeakable agony. these people that are living, if they are alive, in the tunnels, holding on to life. my god. >> you know, willie -- >> we don't hear about them. >> -- jimmy carter lost his presidency -- >> thank you for bringing this up. >> -- in part because he would not listen to just the flood of -- the chorus of americans saying, "turn iran into a parking lot. wipe out iran. attack iran. to hell with the hostages. they've done this. go in guns blazing."

carterrefused to do so. it was extraordinarily painful. dr. brzezinski said it was the most painful part of his life. certainly in the public sphere and even privately, one of the most just gnawing, horrible moments. but jimmy carter made a decision. made a decision to put those hostages first. to bring them home. it cost jimmy carter his political office. it cost him a landslide defeat. but every one of those hostages in iran came home, back to their families. so let's not hear that it can't be done, because it is a choice. every day, benjamin netanyahu makes that choice to put the hostages last on his list.

>> well, and sometimes the hostages, which should be at the center of this, are lost in all the discussion of red lines and policy and the humanitarian crisis we're seeing in gaza. when you have the family members, like ms. goldberg come on, talking about her son, it brings it all right back, about what this is and what happened on october 7th. there are still israelis -- and, yes, there are still americans being held inside gaza. so i know it is a priority in quarters of israel and in quarters of the government, in quarters of the idf, trying to get to them somehow, someway. it is an incredibly difficult mission. we've got to keep those house ta hostages top of mind. it is part of our job perhaps to remind people inside of israel, they are still there. we hope many of them are still alive. we've learned some of them aren't. but they need to come home, and we're always honored to have their families come on our show and talk about their loved ones, keep their memories alive, and keep hope alive that they will

come back. >> yes, yes. all right. june 12th will mark what would have been the 100th birthday of president george h.w. bush. to honor the legacy of the 41st president, jon meacham, you have curated over 450 photos that best capture his storied life. they're con pilconpiled in a ne "the call to serve, the life of an american president, george herbert walker bush." first, give us a sense of why you put this together now, and we'd love to go through a few of them with you. >> centennials of presidents are often revealing. george washington's in the 1930s, which is the bicentennial, was a reminder of why we were doing this amid the depression and the forces. fdr's centennial in the early '80s gave ronald reagan a chance

to talk about that he was really trying not to repeal the new deal but the great society. president bush himself was part centennial as he was trying to build a world order more about the central government more than the extremes, just as the world was beginning to change. you know, i'm a great admirer of george h.w. bush's. i'm his biographer. i like to say i didn't fall in love with him but i did come to love him. not least because at critical moments, however imperfect he was, he would put the country above his own interest. he was driven by ambition. he was driven to have ultimate authority in a nuclear age. but once he had power, he always did the right thing. june 12th is the centennial, a

big event in college station where his presidential library is. i think he is someone we have to contemplate in this moment. not because he is remote but because he's so resonant. you know, his character, his imperfections, his vices, and his virtues are all within reach. they shed light on what's possible. not because he is perfect but because he was imperfect. yet, we manage to create a more perfect union in that era. >> jon, the pictures, the photographs are extraordinary. they go back all the way through his life. there's one most recent that gets at your point, which is when senator dole rose and it still gives me chills to think about this, to see the image. he rose from his wheelchair december 2018 to salute the casket of president george h.w.

bush. these two men of the same generation, who made the kind of sacrifice that we don't see as much now as we did then, the kind of men that you've seen. perhaps there's a lot of nostalgia and romanticism for that era, and for good reason. as you have written many times, george h.w. bush was a man of privilege, who could have avoided that kind of service, but tried actually to get into the military earlier than he was even allowed to. >> so that's a marvelous -- i mean, look at that for a second, as you say. these two men were about as different as you could be. george h.w. bush was milton, massachusetts, went to a day school, andover, yale. bob dole, russell, kansas. he was in the army. he lost -- he was so grievously wounded. president bush, though he was

shot down in the pacific in 1944, used to say, you know, in the navy, when you're a navy pilot, you flew off, you did your mission, but then you came back and there were milk shakes. bob dole didn't get milk shakes. they fought each other for decades in the republican party. this was a republican party that, tragically, is virtually unrecognizable today. there you have these two rivals recognizing in each other that what united them was more important than what divided them. and that's not a presidential library coffee mug statement, right? these were real people. we actually, you know, a lot of us knew these folks. i remember being with senator dole and president bush very late and very late in their

lives, and senator dole ordered a cosmo from the bartender. president bush said, "bob, what's in that? he said, "i don't know, there's a lot of vodka." bush said, "okay, i'm in." it's a small thing, but they were brought together by this notion that the constitution mattered. that america mattered. and the fact that this seems nostalgic tells us more about where we are now than i think any of us would like to. >> yeah. jon, you know, you're so right. that is a magnificent photo. bob dole, 10th mountain division, as a young man, badly wounded in italy. george h.w. bush, 20 years old, climbs into a cockpit, fighter pilot. not having to do so, he could have gotten out of it. there are many, many -- and we grew up knowing people like this who never spoke about their wartime experiences. but one experience captured in

one of the photos in the book, that george h.w. bush used to speak about a lot was baseball. throwing out the first pitch of the astros game in 1986. there he is, sly left-hander on the mound, throwing it. tell us about this picture. tell us about bush and baseball. >> well, he played at andover and at yale. he played in the first two college world series. lost both of them, unfortunately. he was a first baseman. someone once said of him, good field, no hit, which actually wasn't true. if you look at the records, barbara bush kept score at each yale game. i think he had about a .240 lifetime average, which is better than i would ever get. his father played baseball for yale. he kept his first baseman's mitt in his desk in the oval office. you know, as a relic. for those of us who believe that baseball is, in fact, a sacred

undertaking, that tells us a lot. the great thing about george h.w. bush and the fact that baseball was his favorite sport is it really is a metaphor. it really does tell you something. what is baseball but a game of endurance? you don't have to get it right every time. the greatest of us, the greatest baseball players get it right about once every five times, right? i once heard him -- he once got into a debate with my son. i think he was about 10 probably. they were discussing who was better, babe ruth or lou gehrig. my son, being 10 years old, thought the power was most important. he said babe ruth. president bush said, no, it was gehrig because he just showed up every day. that's what george bush did. >> the new book is entitled "the

call to serve: the life of an american president, george herbert walker bush." it is available now. author and presidential historian jon meacham, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> thank you. >> -- special counsel jack smith's warning that donald trump is making public statements that pose a, quote, danger to law enforcement agents. we'll explain his latest legal filing. also ahead, our next guest is taking a look at some of the darkest places along our nation's highways. frank figliuzzi join s us with his crime book investigating long haul truckers. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful live picture of the united states capitol at 7:31 in the morning. prosecutors and special counsel jack smith's office now have asked judge aileen cannon to order former president trump to stop making public statements that pose a danger to law enforcement agents investigating and prosecuting trump's classified documents case in florida. prosecutors filed the request after trump claimed on social media last week the biden administration authorized the fbi to use deadly force when searching mar-a-lago to classified documents in 2022. nbc news learned that language of the justice department policy

on when lethal force can be used also was included in the documents connected to the fbi's search of president biden's home. the search for classified documents there. showing just how routine the provision is and how it is not connected to a particular mission or operation. joining us, assistant director for counterintelligence, frank figliuzzi, the author of "long haul, hunting the highway serial killers." frank, good morning. this book is fascinating. can't wait to talk about it. want to ask you quickly about this language that some have dug out. it's become a popular conspiracy theory online. made its way to the airwaves of prominent conservative networks. somehow, they're taking donald trump's word for it that the fbi came loaded and ready to assassinate donald trump. can you speak to the language uncovered and how routine it actually is. >> i can.

25 years in the fbi as a special agent. i can't recall seeing an ops order -- and i had hundreds of them either approved by me, written by me, on i've been on the search -- i've never seen one without the deadly force policy. why is that? it's required, and it is a federal form. it is a template with mandatory sections that you can't delete. that's why it was in the biden search, as well. people who say, well, this was a unique search. former president, you should have taken that part out, i say this, are you saying that fbi agents should have showed up on an operation unarmed? are you saying that fbi agents should have not been prepared to defend themselves against any threat? by the way, murphy's law happens on any given day throughout the fbi. what do i mean by that? a spouse shows up and shoots an fbi agent dead. that has happened. a contract employee has nothing to do with your operation, thinks you're here for him because he has a warrant. he opens fire on the agents.

of course they're going to be armed. of course they're reminded of the deadly force. >> it's not coming with intent to use deadly force, but if they're confronted with it, they have clearance to use it in that case. almost certainly, i don't want to elevate too much of this conspiracy theory, but almost certainly, the fbi coordinated with the secret service ahead of this? >> that's another theory i'm hearing from the far right, that there was zero coordination. that's simply false. >> frank, you've established this is normal behavior. now speak to the fact that trump has put this out there, it is being echoed by a lot of his sycophants. how dangerous is this rhetoric? would it put people in federal or local law enforcement on alarm, saying, well, he's claiming to be an assassination attempt. would his supporters turn to violence themselves to protect him or strike at others. >> we have to stop this former president from doing this, jack smith is saying. why? there is a long record trump is inciting violence, whether he likes to hear it or not. we have someone who tried to

breach the cincinnati office and wound up dead. people tried to shoot at si agents in provo, utah, trying to arrest them, and ended up dead. the track record is they respond to trump. let's turn, frank, to the book. it is titled "long haul." 20 years now, the working with law enforcement agenies to get the most difficult serial killers to catch, the long haul truck driver. it look a while before the bureau realized it had a problem on its hands because of the distances truckers travel. >> we started noticing within our database a number of bodies along the side of the road. victims kept coming up as prostitutes, specifically truck stop prostitutes. one after another, our main suspects or confirmed offenders were identified as truck drivers. so putting those pieces

together, we started to say, something is going on. >> that's fbi analysis from 2016. we're talking about 850 deaths along the roadways, frank. what plugged you into this story, and what piqued your interest? >> despite 25 years as a special agent, i thought i knew all the nooks and crannies of the fbi. but as i learned more about the highway serial killings initiative, run out of quantico, virginia, in the behavioral analysis units, i had to tell the story. 850 homicides, mostly of sex trafficked women along our nation's highways in the past few decades. 450 active suspects right now amongst the long haul trucking community. 200 of the cases considered active and unsolved. this is the story of the fbi's highway serial killings initiative. the numbers continue to rise. the killings continue. there are three subcultures that hide just under our nose along our nation's highways. long haul trucking, sex

trafficking, and then the crime analysts who have tried to connect the dots to stop the killing. i put my investigator hat back on. i went out on the road. i rode over 2,000 miles in a big rig. i happen to run flatbed. boy, was that amazing, to see the impact on the economy, to see modern trucking that's gone high-tech. you have to know math and physics and weight distribution and points of securement to load propertierly. i did that with the truck driver. i also talked to victims who survived violent encounters with long haul truckers because they were trafficked to truckers. >> frank, apart from victims, potential victims who are alive, cooperating, and talking to the fbi, what's the degree of difficulty in investigating a potential long trucker murder, given the forensics involved? >> you're essentially talking

about a mobile crime scene with a big rig. >> yeah. >> they'll grab a victim in one jurisdiction, rape or murder her in a second jurisdiction, and they'll dump the body in a third. you have law enforcement not knowing even most of the time the identity of the young woman, let alone the killer. now, you have county sheriffs and police departments saying it's yours. no, it's yours. you have no family members often championing the cause. what are you doing with my daughter's case? what's the latest on this? they don't even know their loved one is missing most of the time because, long ago, the drug addiction, the prostitution caused the family out of survival to distance themselves. i hope this book helps champion the cause of those who can't speak anymore. >> what about the degree of cooperation the investigators are getting from other drivers or the companies that they work for who might be pointing, like, yeah, this guy, something about this feels wrong? >> great question. really, part of the heros in

this book are the long haul truckers themselves. many of them trained by an organization called truckers against trafficking to identify signs of human trafficking. those truckers become the eyes and ears of the anti-trafficking movement. every year, truckers do recognize trafficking and rescue women out of that trap. the corporations, the big companies we're all familiar with, warner, j.b. hunt that we see on the highway, they also cooperate. they don't want this happening either. >> frank, you were quick to point out when you sat down, this is a staggering story but it is also representing a tiny percentage of truck drivers who the vast majority are incredibly hard-working people doing really difficult jobs. >> these truckers are putting food on their family's tables by giving us food for our families. i partly dedicate my book to the stalwart american trucker. very impressive people. >> such a fascinating book. it is titled "long haul, hunting the highway's serial killers."

frank figliuzzi, thank you. >> my pleasure. deadly storms tweep through central and southern united states, leaving tens of thousands without power. we'll have the latest on the cleanup and recovery efforts next on "morning joe."

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under a minute remaining. on the drive, pulls back, lost the ball, got it back. kicks it out, white. corner three. bang! white from downtown. celtics by three. >> derrick white's tie-breaking three-pointer with 43 seconds to play helps the boston celtics sweep their way into the nba finals. man, did they look good. for the third time in four games, they rallied from a fourth quarter deficit to defeat the indiana pacers. jaylen brown earned series mvp honors, 29 points. jayson tatum, 26. celtics won, 105-102, against the pacers. they've won seven straight playoff games, 6-0 on the road in the playoffs, as they advance to the nba finals for the second time in three years. boston will play for its 18th title in franchise history against either the dallas mavericks or minnesota timber

timberwolves, who meet tonight. the mavs have a 3-0 lead in the best of seven western conference finals. these celtics are really good. almost underrated in some ways. if you look at their record, they are up there in terms of the record, i'm not comparing anybody to larry bird -- don't worry, mike. >> good. >> but they're among the best celtics teams ever if you look at their record. playing so well right now. >> if you count the playoffs, they have one of the top 15 or so records of all time in the history of the nba. >> yeah. >> they've flown under the radar, in part, the western conference is perceived to be stronger this year. the celtics, to be fair, have benefitted from an easy playoff path. a lot of eastern conference foes were designated by injuries. you can only play the schedule they give ya, and they've taken care of business. five games, five games, now a sweep. they have a week off before the finals. they'll get porzingis back which will help. >> they are very good. >> they are deep and talented. looks like they're going to face the dallas mavericks. >> luka. >> luka is wonderful. >> kyrie. >> kyrie comes home to boston.

i think he won't be well received. >> that'll be a show. listen, they're a great team, no doubt about that. we'll see how great they really are in terms of character, if they complete -- we'll find out in the seven games or however many games they play against luka, okay, if it's him. but the greatest nba team of all time, '86 celtics with bill walton. >> ah. >> bill walton. we'll get to that in a second. willie, finishing up on this celtics/pacers series. you know, this is a series the pacers are going to look back on at their missed opportunities. all the celtics turnovers in game one. i mean, gene, i know we were talking about that. all the turnovers in game one. >> yeah. >> indiana let it get away. then several blown leads. one a record-breaking blown lead. gene, this is a series that indiana, man, i know you say they could have won, but they could be 2 -2 right now.

they're a great team. >> absolutely. they absolutely had every opportunity to win. you know, the indiana team just didn't yet -- doesn't yet know how to close these games. boston does. i mean, they've been there, and they know how to close. they know how to close. that's a saying we're seeing in the mavericks and timberwolves series. the timberwolves will be up, and then at the end of the game -- well, it is luka and kyrie. you know, these more veteran teams, it helps if they have great superstars, but they know how to close. i've always thought that derrick white is the secret weapon of the celtics. i mean, you know, we all talk about tatum and brown. derrick white, as far as i'm concerned, is a superstar. he always makes three when it is needed. he always blocks a shot when it is needed. he always get as rebound when it

is needed at that crucial moment. i think they need to pay him whatever it takes to keep him in boston forever. he is a great player. >> yeah, he really is. i suspect he will be paid. mike invoked the name of the great bill walton. this is the back page. even in new york, they broke the mold, talking about bill will ton. the daily news, "not fade away," a reference to the grateful dead, his favorite band. hall of fame center, star broadcaster, huge, one of a kind character, bill walton, died after a a prolonged battle with cancer. jesse kirsch has more on walton's life and legacy. >> reporter: on the court and on the mic, bill walton was a towering figure in the world of basketball. a 6'11" california kid, walton played center for ucla coaching legend john wooden. the big man helped the bruins

win back-to-back national championships in 1927 and 1973. both teams were undefeated. while in college he also made headlines for an arrest while protesting the vietnam war. reportedly, he was bailed out of jail by his coach. >> walton on the line. >> reporter: later in the nba, walton won championships for portland and boston. undeterred by a speech impediment, the hall of famer kept the highlights coming as a broadcaster. >> bill is taking his shirt off. >> reporter: his best moments arguably had nothing to do with the game. take a bite while it's lit. >> reporter: the nba says the basketball legend died surrounded by family following a prolonged cancer battle. >> takes talent to get to the top. takes character to stay there. >> reporter: bill walton was 71. >> nbc's jesse kirsch there. you covered him in boston. the incredible, obviously,

college career, two championships. remember that championship game, 21 of 22. one of the greatest performances in the history of college basketball, picked number one overall, wins a title for portland. his nba career short circuited by those injuries to his feet. he had this second chapter in boston where he was the sixth man of the year, won another title with the larry bird team. what are your memories of bill walton this morning? >> my memories of bill walton are few but precious. he was a beautiful spirit. he was a beautiful human being. i was telling jonathan during the break that he once called me, first time he called me, actually, i had written about a couple from lowell, massachusetts, who had a child in children's hospital, young child dying, and they were going back and forth taking turns. the father would go in. the mother came in. they ran a fruit stand. they were from cambodia. they had flat tires and couldn't afford tires.

he called me up and offered to buy them tires out of the blue. i never met him before. of course, the grateful dead, he often said playing basketball with larry bird is like singing with jerry garcia. >> wow, wow. guys, joe, i know you probably have memories of bill walton, too. people too young to have watched him play remember him as an announcer for the nba, college basketball, he was always funny and wild and blunt. he would say that was a terrible play. just told it like it was. >> you know, gene, there are so many people that were in bill walton's life, so many people that shaped his life. i love the story though of his basketball coach bailing him out. i love the fact that you talk about contrasts. when he was going through college, some crazy volatile

times in the united states. certainly on college campuses. yet, he had the rock. he had the foundation. he had john wooden. and wooden loved this guy. his quirkiness. but those values, we heard him speaking that it takes talent to get to the top. it takes character to stay there. and that character was built in large part by the great john wooden. >> it should have was. ops and bill walton, for his entire life, was incredibly loyal to ucla basketball. the ucla coach said he cannot imagine a season, next season in poly pavilion without bill walton coming to at least some games and being there. you know, he was the successor

to kareem abdul-jabbar, the great center coming out of ucla, and one of the most touching tributes i saw yesterday to walton was from kareem. they were great friends. of course, ucla alums. but just total mufrm respect for each other, not just as great players p but as human beings. >> all right. coming up, we're going to go live to the courthouse in lower manhattan where closing arguments are scheduled to begin this morning in donald trump's criminal trial. we're back in just a moment.

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and that, of course, compared to how former president donald trump did talking about him and his son, tried to sell stuff. we'll be back in one minute. (♪♪) (♪♪) try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints.

because freedom has never been guaranteed, every generation has to earn it. fight for it, defend it and battle between autocracy and democracy, between the greed of a few and rights of many. it matters. our democracy is more than just a system of government. it's the very soul of america. it's how we have been able to constantly adapt through the centuries. it's why we've always emerged from every challenge stronger than when we went in and how we come together as one nation,

united. just as our fallen heroes, we must keep faith with them. because of them, all of them, that we stand here today. we will never forget that. we will never, ever, ever stop working to make a more perfect union, which they lived and which they died for. that was their promise. that's our promise. our promised to them. that's our promise always. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, may 28th. that was president biden marking memorial day at arlington national cemetery with a somber message about freedom, democracy, and honoring those who are made the ultimate sacrifice for our country. it certainly is a day for reflection across the country. >> really is. and it's a special day. has long been a special day for public servants who focused on those who have given their all,

given their lives to this country. that's something that donald trump has said and told a general who is his chief of staff, he didn't understand that concept. why would anybody -- >> right. >> give their all for america? of course, maybe that's why he marked memorial day by blasting, well, anybody who was opposed to him, and various legal proceedings against him. in a post yesterday morning, trump wrote in part, quote, happy memorial day to all, including the human scum that is working so hard to destroy -- you know, i want to -- i want to stop there, willie. he attacks judges. he attacks the woman that he was found liable for sexually assaulting. did all of that. it just reminds me that on a somber day like that, reminds me

what was said by ken burns at brandice university where he was talking to the students and he told them, you know, how america came to be, how it is striving to be a more perfect union, just like president biden said, but he said, choose values over vulgarity. and, sadly, a lot of americans are not following that basic advice. the basic values of being patriotic and being a good citizen of this country. you've got to look to people who use holidays, whether it's christmas or whether, you know, it's thanksgiving or whether it's memorial day, a sacred day like memorial day for america, to attack, quote, human scum

defined by donald trump as anybody who doesn't support him. >> yeah. that was an extraordinary commencement address by ken burns at brandice. we will play that in a little bit. so much to say about our country. he is such a good student of history. yeah, joe, what's disconcerting most about it, the phenomena we have seen develop the last decade or so, the people who laugh and cheer along the show. even yesterday, those posts, they view it as a troll and it will upset us and we'll talk about it today, even on the day where they call themselves patriots, a lot of those people. a day he takes to make about himself, his own sacrifice on memorial day, his own sacrifice, his own martyrdom. it's always about him. to the point you made earlier, he asked in the same conversation according to general kelly looking at the headstones, what was in it for them?

why would you give your life for america? why would you give your life in the defense of freedom around the world? what was in it for them? he genuinely, deeply at his core doesn't understand the sacrifice of the military, the sacrifice of people who put their lives on the line for the country. it's part of who he is. we saw it on display again yesterday. we talk about this contrast. look at the president of the united states at arlington, a place that gives anybody who has a patriotic bone their body or human bone their body chills to walk through and look at the headstones. look at what his opponent was doing yesterday. there is your contrast. it wasn't just former president trump. it was his son eric getting some well deserved backlash over his social media posts after one user posted a photo of the trump family with the caption, quote, the family that gave up everything to save america, thank you. >> oh, my gosh, no. >> this is memorial day weekend.

eric trump reposted, and we will do it again. former republican congressman adam kinzinger of illinois, a military pilot responded, quote, your family has sacrificed nothing. your name will be synonymous with benedict arnold. how dare you tweet this, this weekend. you don't know the first thing about service, you child. the congressman talking to eric trump after he posted a memorial day promotion for the trump store on instagram that read, we are honoring our brave men and women this weekend. please buy our stuff. eric since deleted that post. the trump website still promoting that memorial day sale. so there it all is in one place, guys. >> okay. there it is. the contrast, if anyone needed one. along with joe, willie and me, we have white house bureau chief at politico jonathan lemire, national affairs analyst john

hallman, and roger's chair, the american presidency at vanderbilt university, presidential historian jon meacham. a new book titled "the call to serve" the life of an american president george herbert walker bush. we will get into that later and maybe a little now, too. >> i wanted you to talk to us about this memorial day, the contrast, what we heard from president trump's own staff members about him being completely baffled by service to one's country in the military, by the loss of life. basically, calling those who were killed losers. i want to ask you again, the contrast not just between joe biden and donald trump, but

between donald trump and every president that's ever served this country before when we get to this point. i must say, too, the people who we have discussed before in their little fleece vests, who we talked about it for money, them supporting trump because they think they will make more money, which is ridiculous because -- but this is another thing i have never been able to figure out. the very people who spent their entire life, you know, beating their chests self-righteously about their patriotism, telling the left that they don't love america, you know, america, love it are to leave it. these are the very people who are supporting a man who denigrates the memory of those who have served and sacrificed all for america.

i must say, yeah, we're not shocked by anything donald trump says. we are not shocked by anything he says anymore. we are shocked by those we know who watch this man denigrate the memory of the fallen and happily support him, happily vote for him, happily turn the country back over to him. >> yeah, i think about this as you do all the time, and i think part of it is this odd decision that a lot of people have made that politics and trump is really about the contest and not about the substance. it's about winning at any cost. and there is a suspension of reason, of history, of custom, of the values that you're talking about that many of these folks have embodied, but somehow or another when you move into

the realm of trump, it's as if gravity has been repealed, right? >> yes. >> and that's the decision they've made as part of this perennial struggle now that has become politics as this form of really a sick kind of entertainment. i was thinking, obviously, about president bush senior, who on his 18th birthday, 100 years ago, well, 82 years ago, joined the -- graduates from andover and gets in the car and drives to boston where he takes an oath as a naval cadet. he had considered joining the royal air force in canada because you could be a pilot before you were 18. and then cut to the first gulf war. he is watching cnn upstairs in the study and he starts to cry

because he remembers the only time he ever saw his father cry was when he put george bush on the train at penn station to go off to world war ii. and maybe that sounds sentimental and sounds like the winds of war meets tom brokaw, but it happened not that long ago. and for so many people to is us spend those values is something they are going to have to answer for forever. the good news is there is time. there is time to reestablish those values. coming up, minutes away from the start of closing arguments in donald trump's hush money trial. we will go live to the new york city courthouse for more on that straight ahead on "morning joe."

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with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles. indoorsy tina loves a deluxe suite. ooh! booking.com booking.yeah trump's criminal hush money trial. the defense will go first with trump attorney todd blanche expected to spend several hours on his summation argument. he will try to convince the jury the government did not meet its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that trump not only falsified business records,

but also had an intent to defraud that included, quote, an intent to commit another crime or aid or conceal the commission thereof. the prosecution will friend jurors they can trust the financial paperwork they have seen and the witnesses they have heard from, the arguments could take up most of the day. once finished, there will be no rebuttals. judge juan merchan will then give the jury its instructions, which is expected to last about an hour. so that could happen tomorrow. let's bring in former litigator and msnbc correspondent loose is a ruben and former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. lisa, what are you going to be watching for and what can we expect today specifically from each side's cloegs? >> today one of the things i am going to be looking for is how

todd blanche constructs a narrative out of what usually is a hole poking. when you're the defense, what you want to do is try to create doubt in the jurors' minds about the narrative that they have heard. for example, todd blanche will spend a lot of time saying that these legal invoices and the other documentation of the repayment scheme, they are not actually false because, in fact, michael cohen was appointed as the personal attorney to donald trump. he did, in fact, perform legal services and it wasn't incorrect for these documents to then refer to the payments as for legal expenses or retainers. but you can only do that sort of hole-poking so long. so how todd blanche turns that exercise into a coherent, cohesive narrative that the jurors follow and eagerly is something i'm interested in seeing. on the other side, the lawyer's

job is less about feelings and more about facts. it is to convince the jury that everything that they have seen fits together neatly like a jigsaw puzzle. so he has elicited evidence over these last six weeks, sometimes from disparate time periods or people who don't go together. now is the time to connect the dots. the ultimate way, chronologically, methodically, and most importantly without very much reliance on michael cohen. they want to show the jury that they don't really need michael cohen to prove their case. there are a couple of episodes where michael cohen's testimony stands alone and unrebutted because anybody else who was in the room has not taken the stand or wasn't called to the stand. for the most part, all of the evidence in this case comes from other sources, too, from people like david he can pecker and hope hicks, documents that arrange from the falsified documents themselves to phone records and emails and texts.

there is a mountain of evidence in this case. it's josh's job to convince the jury of just how much there is and how little of it came from the mouth of one michael cohen. >> lisa, could we talk about the mechanics mix? because this is a new york state criminal trial, the defense goes first. prosecution gets the last word, which is sort of not what we have seen in other places, people used to seeing in the movies. donald trump says in a post yesterday that this is unfair to him, it's witch hunt, et cetera, et cetera. this not unique to donald trump. >> this is new york state criminal court. how does it impact what the jury hears? >> i will give you the best case for new york state doing it this way. the prosecution bears the burden of proof. they get to go last. if your burden is to show beyond a reasonable doubt these crimes were committed, makes sense you get ultimate say about what happened here. it is a shame that donald trump's very good lawyers in this case -- i want to be clear.

i think they are all good lawyers. they didn't have the opportunity in consulting with their client to explain to him how today is supposed to work and to enable him to lie to the american people about this process and to make it seem as if he is being singled out when this is what every single criminal defendant in new york state faces. >> joyce, what do you think the top key arguments that each side needs to make as they try to sway jurors? >> right. so, you know, at the end of every closing argument by a defendant, if you don't have a little bit of real reasonable doubt in your mind after listening to the argument, the defense hasn't done its job. i think that's what we'll hear today from the defense. their job is to raise questions, poke holes in the evidence that the government constructs throughout a trial. some of the most important arguments will center on michael cohen and his credibility. you know, in many ways there are

strong circumstantial evidence. we will hear the people of the state of new york talk about that in their closing argument. but the defense will have a legitimate argument that if michael cohen isn't credible, that entire mountain of evidence is built on a platform that can't hold it up. michael cohen's credibility will be front and center in their argument. and they will also, along the edges of that argument, point out he was provided legal services, that these paper records don't meet the technical elements of fraudulent records. when it's the people's turn, they'll come back with this argument. they will argue that proof beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't depend on any one piece of evidence. it's all of the evidence taken together. and so they constructed a case whereas we discussed while the trial was ongoing, they corroborated as much of michael cohen's testimony as they could

before he took the stand. we'll hear them remind jurors of witnesses whose testimony they have forgotten. they testified weeks ago, starting with david pecker. and this is an important process that prosecutors go through at the end of a trial. it's memory reconstruction. telling the jurors, don't rely on our memory. rely on on yours, but here's what happened at the beginning of this trial. they will layer evidence upon evidence to say, you know those holes that the defense tried to poke in our case, they are only one or two pieces of evidence deep. but there are four or five other pieces of evidence that corroborate. for instance, donald trump's willingness to engage in a crime that was designed to cover up or commit other crimes. at the end of the people's argument, they will tell the jury that proof beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't depend on any one piece of evidence or any one witness. it depends on all of the evidence built together and that there is too much here to

ignore. strong direct and circumstantial evidence of donald trump's guilt. >> you know, john, on "way too early', which of course is seen by more people, than any show going back to the beatles' debut on ed sullivan. but this morning he reported in his politico column, he told us about his report that if donald trump is convicted in new york, that the biden team is going to start using that possibly even in social media talking about convicted felon donald trump. and joe biden, who hasn't spoken yet about this, this trial, will start speaking about it, jonathan lemire reports, after the verdict. we have been talking about you and i, we believe up to now all of these charges, even the

convictions in the other cases, have actually helped donald trump with his base. not really persuaded many people. they aren't paying attention. what do you think about what jonathan lemire's reporting? if biden starts leaning into it, if trump is convicted, does that have an impact from what you have seen? >> well, i mean, joe, i think, you know, something we have talked about also. i think this is no man's land to do this. we have no idea and no one has the faintest clue of what the psychic political effects on the small pool of persuadable voters in the small number of states on which this election will turn, what impact it will have. jonathan's reporting is consistent with what i have heard. there is no doubt that the biden campaign, if convicted, the campaign is going to start labeling donald trump a

convicted felon. trump will appeal this verdict for sure and he will almost certainly not be put behind bars between now and november. that matters to some people. there has been some polling that suggests that those voters we're talking about seeing trump not just convicted but imprisoned is different than just seeing him convicted. so he is going to appeal. he is almost certainly not going to go to jail. the biden campaign will call him a convicted felon. whether joe biden does that once, more than once, we don't know the answer to that yet. but we are talking about such a small number of voters. you know, in a world where almost everyone has an opinion about this case. this is a case that the actions in question took place in 2006 and 2016. everyone in the world, we think, has a firmly set view about donald trump, stormy daniels, michael cohen, the payments, this, that, the other thing. there are a small number of people in the country who haven't decided what they think about the election, what they think about this case, and

convicted felon could move a small but crucial number of them. that's one of the things the biden campaign is not going to leave to chance. they will call donald trump a convicted felon if he is a convicted felon. >> the president hasn't spoken about the trials. he doesn't want to be seen as interfering. that will continue for the classified documents, the case in georgia. my reporting is that once we get a verdict here, the president and the timing of this is fluid, of course, the president will make remarks from a government white house perspective, talking about how we need to respect the outcome, the american legal system worked and he will do that no matter what the verdict is. but if there is a conviction, willie, he is going to lean into it a little bit. i think the social media campaign, the convicted felon donald trump from time too time. the president will make the

argument that this is further evidence that donald trump is unfit for office. look at the lengths he will go to, to look out for himself and not you, the american people. but they understand it isn't going to be a major issue. they are not going to spend nearly as much time on this as they do things like abortion or the economy or the two foreign wars now, things that impact american voters more than this criminal proceeding. some in biden world who think once the trial is over and trump has to be out there more, that's a bad thing for trump, they think he benefitted in some ways from being off the road. we will see about that. and certainly the biden campaign believes the debate about a month from now will be a more significant event than whatever the verdict is here even if it moves just a few voters, it will be a tight race. >> because of the pace of the other trials, likely the only verdict we will get before election day. let's talk about that coming verdict, lisa. viewers guide for our msnbc audience. what should we expect today? it sounds like we get defense in the morning, closing argument

perhaps prosecution this afternoon, jury instructions tomorrow, if they are in court? >> we will be in court tomorrow. i expect we will hear jury instructions tomorrow. sometimes judges set time limits on each side's ability to sum up. that's not what we have here. each side they expect to take several hours in summing up. i would expect we will see jury instructions tomorrow and then the jury goes immediately to their deliberations. we will stay in the courthouse, msnbc and nbc news, ready for any verdict as soon as it comes. but of course, willie, you know, jon knows, we have no idea how long that takes and trying to assess whether the lengths of time that the jury is out means one result or another is also sometimes a fool's errand as joyce can tell you well. >> msnbc correspondent lisa rubin and former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you both. we will be seeing you both a lot this week. thank you so much.

still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump was repeatedly booed and heckled during an appearance at the libertarian national convention. we are going to show you some of that, how he responded. and be joined by the former chairman of the libertarian national committee as well. plus, republican senator tim scott gives another vague answer when asked whether he will certify the 2024 election results no matter who wins. "morning joe" will be right back.

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coming up, words of wisdom from award-winning filmmaker ken burns. what he told graduates this month about america's greatest challenges. that is next on "morning joe."

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♪♪ award-winning filmmaker ken burns delivered the commencement address at brandeis university outside boston earlier this month, clips of which drew attention on social media over the weekend. here's why. burns spoke about the nation's idealogical divide and what's at stake this november. >> the old testament eclose assisties to be specific got to right, i think, what has been will be again, what has been done will be done again. there is nothing new under the sun. what those lines suggest is that human nature never changes or almost never changes. we continually superimpose that

complex and contradictory nature over the random chaos of events. our strengths and weaknesses are greed and curiosity, virtue and, parade before our eyes. generation after generation after generation. this often gives us the impression that history repeats itself. it does not. no event has ever happened twice. it just rhymes. mark twain is supposed to have said, i have spent all of my professional life on the lookout for those rhymes, drawn to that power of history. >> ken burns delivering the commencement address at brandeis university. mike, your old friend ken burns spending his professional life taking the large view of history. and delivering a powerful address that culminated with a

commentary about what's happening in our country today, where we may be going and making a plea to the young people in that room, but also to the audience that's going to see it larger than that, that this is from the man who has some perspective on these things, given his life's work, this is a pivotal moment? >> yeah, it is. you know, the root of memorial day in the word memorial is memory, and you wonder in listening to ken's speech over the weekend at brandeis, you wonder is our memory so fleeting that we have forgotten about something else that ken mentioned? the greatest, one of the greatest stories in history? the story of america. the formation of america. we remember ronald reagan in 1984 talking about the mourning in america. now the reality is, many people walking around probably wondering, is it twilight in america? because of all of the divisions in the country. i think we exaggerate the divisions because we are all

americans, but the idea that this country is so filled with, as he pointed out, right, left, red state, blue state, we are all americans whether we came here from pakistan or vietnam, whether our parents came from ireland or germany or italy, we are all americans. and the idea that we seem to be loosening or maybe even losing that grip that ties us together as americans in one common purpose, to continue to pursue freedom not only for our children, but for our grandchildren, the idea that we are losing that is horrifying. it's beyond horrifying. it's a tragedy. and we've got to come to kbrips with ourselves really to stop hating each other, to have a conversation with each other. i have no idea the percentage of americans who don't even know their neighbors, who have never been in their neighbors' home. i have no idea of the number of children who miss so much

because of covid, no matter what their age, missed first grade, second grade, high school graduations and are isolated from one another in our fear of the future. the future we measure now by a week's paycheck, by a month's paycheck. where are we going? we have got to be told again and again the story of america. the real story of america. >> you know, jon meacham, it spoke to me so much because it was a great concern that mika and i have been talking about. not who wins or loses this fall, but, which, obviously, concerns us, but just the challenges that are before us and before americans. as ken said, we are imprisoned by our own binary reactions, presumptions and prejudices. and people just again simplifying things, stripping it

down, not understanding the complexities and like you and i have talked about, just running too whatever tribe they've -- you look at a.i. the grave challenges that poses on an existential scale to humanity, but also the threats to working americans and jobs going away. you look at global warming. the evidence grows by the day, and yet we're really not doing anything significant about that. you look at people's sense of safety, when they are walking through large cities, and the fact that they can't get enough police officers, people don't want to be police officers anymore. not enough, if you ask the lapd, if you ask the philadelphia police department. there are huge challenges.

and you have got vladimir putin on the march in ukraine again because people didn't look at the issue as americans have since world war ii, freedom versus tyranny. they looked at it tribally. so mike johnson held up aid because donald trump told him to hold up aid, and other republicans who were always cold war warriors collapsed because they have a binary vision of america. nothing to do with ideology. i mean, it's you voted for a republican president in your life. i sure have voted for a lot of republican presidents in my life. dr. brzezinski endorsed republican presidents during his lifetime. it's not a binary choice. you look at who is best for america. but now everything is divided not by ideas, not by ideology,

but the tribalism where on one side you have a president praising those and the memory of those who gave their lives for america, and on the other side a vile former president who vile when he talks about the fallen, saying doesn't get it. what was in it for them? to defend their country. and decides to write on memorial day, instead of lifting up those who gave their all for america, attacking those who opposed him by calling them human scum. let's talk about ken burns. what ken burns said, how we move back, actually, to that -- >> can we? >> that sort of promised land. >> well, i think we can do a lot worse than listening to what ken

said, mike said, what you just said. reality is not binary, but the choice we face is. and if that's an irony in all of this, i go back to this tension between what is patriotism and what is nationalism. and patriotism classically understood is allegiance to an idea, the idea of america, however imperfectly realized, all men are created equal. that's our mission statement. the constitution as it's been said is our users guide. we've lived out of compliance a hell of a lot more years with that mission statement than we have in compliance. but at least we keep trying to get there. nationalism, roughly understood, is just an allegiance to people

who look like you. to people who worship the same god. to people who share the same ethnic characteristics. that is a fundamental vital defining difference in how cultures organize themselves. are we loyal to an idea that sometimes means i'd rather -- i have to give as opposed to take, which is not part of human nature, right? so the third chapter of genesis, it's more fun for us to take than to give, right? and so but democracy, american democracy, as it's unfolded, is about giving as well as taking and seeing each other as neighbors. and, you know, without that, then politics is total war. it's the law of the jungle and it's going to keep unfolding in this disastrous way.

coming up, one of our next guests is highlighting what he calls the five issues that could determine former president trump's guilt in the trial straight ahead on "morning joe." "

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donald trump was loudly booed at the libertarian convention. senator mike lee, however, must have been watching a completely different speech. speech. >> well done, president trump. i think you've won the hearts and minds of a whole lot of libertarians out there and a whole lot of other americans. thank you. >> four. >> i think it was six. >> six votes. i'm sorry. >> we'll talk about what happened with the former chair of the libertarian national committee when "morning joe" comes right back.

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i know who we are as americans. we're the only nation in the world with a heart and soul that draws from old and new, home to native americans and ancestors who have been here for thousands of years, home to people from every place on earth. they came freely. some came in chains. some came when famine struck, like my ancestral family in ireland, some to flee persecution, to chase dreams that are impossible anywhere but america. >> president biden during his state of the union address back in march highlighting the united states as a nation of immigrants. america's immigration story is the focus of a new off broadway

play. bebe wong is with us. we don't give away too much, because the play is such an experience that surprises you as it goes. how do you describe it to people who are thinking about going to see it? >> the play uses immigration as a backdrop for the relationship of two siblings over their entire lives and how their relationship to their parents and their immigration status is completely differen and how that affects their turbulent relationship as siblings. >> obviously you can see all the themes of this playing out in our society right now, have been playing out in our society for generations, of course. this feels relevant. it feels like it's in the bloodstream. >> just the definition of what an immigrant is and how unique

that is to our american identity. that's my entry point into loving the play. i think it's really nice to talk about how our identity is informed by the fact that the people before us came here to create a better life for their kids and their families and how that's the american dream. >> certainly the production is for everyone. >> yeah. >> are you finding audience members who are immigrants themselves or whose parents were, is it of particular resonance with them? >> absolutely. what i love about this play is that it has such an incredible way of people drawing their own story from it. whether they're immigrants or not, they see themselves in these two people. it's very interesting and kind of a rorschach blot in that way.

it's very moving and very funny, and i think people really respond to the identification, the validation we're talking about that immigration status that's somewhere in our identity no matter who we are. >> you say there are two casts effectively, working not on the same nights. >> right. >> how does that play out? what texture does it bring to it? >> it's wonderful. atlantic theater is a state of the art theater company. they are doing something that is never, ever done. that is having two casts that are universal. roslyn chow and i are opening the play and subsequently tony shalhoub will be doing the play. you can see both casts on the

same day if you wanted to. it will show you and highlight the individuality of the immigration experience side by side and also show you what the similarities are. >> you've won a tony. you've also been in massive films, the "father of the bride" movies. what do you get out of this experience? >> there's no editor. i'm there with one actor roslyn chow and we are in charge of our own performances. it's what we call a two-hander. it's a huge responsibility. it is a beautiful play. you can hear the audience weeping and sighing and finding recognition in what you're saying. you don't get that when you're working in an on-camera medium

at all. you just kind of have to imagine it while you're doing the performance before the camera. but here you don't have to imagine it. it's there. i love that experience. that's why i became an actor in the first place to have that experience. >> there's a lot of talk about this play. it's called "what became of us." it's playing off broadway at the atlantic theater. bd wong, great to have you. >> thank you very much. we kick off the fourth hour of "morning joe," 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. less than 30 minutes from now, closing arguments are set to begin this morning in donald trump's hush-money criminal trial in a new york city courtroom. the defense will present its final summations first, followed by the prosecution. laura jarrett has the details. >> reporter: this morning former president trump back in court as

the prosecution and defense make their closing arguments to the jury of seven men and five women. the state is tasked today with weaving together the sprawling thread of witnesses over the last weeks, witnesses like david pecker, who described a scheme to catch and kill stories to help mr. trump's election chances. former trump aide hope hicks explaining the fallout over the "access hollywood" tape caused a scramble. only one witness, michael cohen, directly connecting a plot to buy the silence of stormy daniels to the alleged crime of doctoring business records. the jury hearing the former fixer drew on a home equity loan on the eve of the election.

cohen testified he did it at trump's direction. >> it's a persecution, not a prosecution of any legitimacy. >> reporter: but the defense has tried to sow seeds of reasonable doubt and discredit michael cohen. >> you better believe i want this man to go down and rot inside for what he did to me and my family. >> reams of invoices, ledger entries and checks bearing mr. trump's signature, all falsified, according to prosecutors. but the defense argues there is no crime, these are merely records. >> joining us, claire mccaskill.

what will you be watching for today? >> i think it's going to be hard to listen to the defense, because they're going to pick at the very weakest parts of the prosecution's case, which if we're candid, the weakest part is that the direct evidence of trump knowing about the falsification of business records all comes through michael cohen. so his credibility is something the jury is going to talk a lot about in deliberation. i venture that the prosecution will spend a great deal of time on shoring up michael cohen's credibility in their closing arguments. how do they do that? their best friend is all the documents that track exactly what he said, including phone records. it will be interesting to see how these argments go today. as a prosecutor, i was always

glad we got the last word. >> michael cohen obviously has said he has lied. he has gone to prison. he has paid a price. that doesn't make it okay, but he is a proven liar. has the prosecution from the reporting we've seen from all of this done a good job getting around the areas where michael cohen lacks credibility with evidence? >> there were a couple times on cross examination that michael cohen let some of his pugnacious personality reign supreme. that doesn't help. i think overall he did a pretty good job of staying calm and measured and admitting that he lied. let's be honest, i'm watching tim scott and all these candidates for vice president go on tv and lie for donald trump. you can't work for donald trump if you're not willing to lie. >> correct. >> it is part of the job description. you must be a good liar to work

for donald trump. i would expect that's probably the underlying closing argument also. >> let's go to the courthouse and vaughn hillyard. >> reporter: when you're looking at michael cohen, this is the opportunity for the prosecution to present the case to the jury in a consolidated form. look, there were five weeks of testimony, 20 witnesses brought by the prosecution, two from the defense. you can expect one of those two defense witnesses robert costello being at the heart of the prosecution's closing arguments to this jury, showing robert costello was somebody allied with donald trump who was continuing to put pressure as part of this long-running conspiracy to silence the likes of stormy daniels and karen

macdougall. they're going to make the case that the underlying crime was election fraud, a long-running conspiracy that went from 2016 all the way into 2018 in an effort to keep michael cohen from flipping on donald trump and talking to federal and state investigators. you saw the defense team focus on that one particular phone call on the night of october 24th, but the district attorney's office is going to reiterate to this jury that michael cohen says he had more than 20 calls in october 2016 alone about the stormy daniels payment and that the defense was never able to refute the january 17th, 2017, meeting in which michael cohen says he scratched down on a bank statement with alan weisselberg the reimbursement scheme that was executed over the course of those 11 months.

the prosecution are going to try to tie this all together even back to the testimony of hope hicks and michael cohen. you had hope hicks, a close ally of donald trump, testify about the role michael cohen was playing in order to silence the stormy daniels story in those closing days. this is the opportunity for them this morning to present to this jury essentially a wrap sheet of five weeks of testimony. the attorneys for donald trump will present their case first. they'll then turn it over to the prosecution. we could get jury instructions as early as this afternoon, though we could wait for them to come tomorrow morning. >> claire, the biden team to this point hasn't talked at all about these criminal trials. that will change once there is a verdict. president biden will first speak to the nation about the

importance of respecting the legal system and the outcome no matter what the jury will come back with. if there is a verdict, his team will talk about it some, not a lot. it will be part of their argument that donald trump is not fit for office. what's your take? >> first of all, everybody needs to understand that this is a very, very close election. the national polls, the popular vote shows it tied or one or two over way. the swing states are certainly within the margin of error, some of them just a point or two one way or the other. it matters who people vote for.

people who are not engaged yet are going to realize this guy, if he's convicted, is now a felon. i think there will be voters especially some of those independent-minded, college-educated voters who can't bring themselves to vote for someone when a jury said they have committed the most serious crime you can commit in this country, which is a felony. if it's a hung jury, i don't think it will ever be an acquittal. i don't think that's going to happen. but if it is a hung jury, that's a little more complicated. >> yeah. we will see what happens. nbc's vaughn hillyard, we'll check back in with you when court resumes in just about 20 minutes from now. after receiving a hostile reception over the weekend at the libertarian national convention on saturday, donald trump failed to even submit the

paperwork to be the party's nominee despite asking for the nomination just minutes earlier. at the convention, both trump and robert f. kennedy jr. made their pitches to voters. it was clear trump was not in front of his typical adoring crowd. >> without further ado, i would like to welcome to the stage a 45th president of the united states, donald j. trump. [ crowd reacts ] >> the libertarian party should nominate trump for president of the united states. whoa. that's nice. [ crowd reacts ] >> that's nice. only if you want to win. only if you want to win. maybe you don't want to win. maybe you don't want to win.

thank you. only do that if you want to win. if you want to lose, don't do that. keep getting your 3% every four years. >> joining us now nicholas sarwark director of the libertarian policy institute. tell us how trump and rfk junior did? >> both of them came to our convention at the invitation of party chair angela mccartel, who narrowly hung onto her seat. she was making an attempt to give him a captive audience that would somehow validate a non-libertarian candidate. i think rfk was gracious and gave a more friendly speech. donald trump tried his standard

tactic of insulting and making empty promises. libertarians rejected him. i think it was the most negative response i've ever seen at a trump rally. i've watched quite a few of them. he can't handle ridicule or shame or the boos. libertarians are not easily fooled. >> what's so interesting about this is there are many things i differ with libertarians on, but conservatives like myself, small-government conservatives, there are a lot of people who believe like me and could have gone there and been a tighter fit. i only bring myself up because we've had this conversation before. it seems like both parties are big-government parties now. when i was there, we balanced the budget four years in a row. we actually believed in smaller

government. people believe different things. some people believe in big government. that's certainly their right. it's hard to find two people, isn't it, that cut more against the grain of what libertarians believe than rfk junior and donald trump. i mean, there's these hot-button issues, but they're both big-government politicians. >> yeah. that's what the convention did in a very late night on sunday. they nominated chase oliver, who had run in the georgia senate election to be presidential candidate, and they also nominated a former republican economist and law enforcement officer to be vp for a balanced

ticket. libertarians have a consistent and coherent small-government ethos. though donald trump might find the right thing to talk about at the right point that maybe resonates a little, what we are looking for -- the reason people are involved in the libertarian party is that they want more than just a talking point or an empty promise. they want a commit to that small government, live and let live ethos that our country was founded upon. >> is there any sort of vessel there where there could be some alignment? >> sadly, no. as i mentioned when we were on during the new hampshire primary, even nikki haley, who was the never trump final last hope of this election said in

new hampshire that she was going to support the nominee and just this last week reiterated that she will support the nominee. i think the republican party at this stage, they have been unable to cure their maga infection. while our party's convection had a mixed bag where there were some wins for the alt right side, i think the presidential nomination was a firm repudiation of an attempt to bring maga into the libertarian party. from what i'm watching, the reaction of the people who brought donald trump, they are very much sad and demoralized and complaining that the libertarian party turned them away. but that's how we treat people who want to come in in a disrespectful fashion who try and occupy our party with values that don't resonate with our social tolerance and civil liberties in addition to small government economics and trying

to have a balanced budget and reduce the national debt. we want to have both. we want to have prosperity and individual rights and freedoms. we're not willing to accept the compromise that the trump republican party is attempting to give us. it's not good enough for us. >> libertarians making their voices pretty clear with those boos the other night. nicholas, thank you so much. we appreciate it. this morning, israel is facing international condemnation for a deadly air strike near a tent camp for displaced palestinians in rafah. prime minister benjamin netanyahu calls it a, quote, tragic incident and says there will be an investigation. raf sanchez has more from israel. >> reporter: this morning, new fallout after that deadly israeli strike in rafah over the weekend. an israeli official tells nbc news it appears the bomb ignited a gas tank at the tent camp, sending flames ripping through

the site as displaced families slept in shelters made of wood and plastic. at least 35 people were killed, many of them women and children. hundreds more wounded. these three brothers lost their only sister. they say she was seven months pregnant. the idf says the strike killed two senior hamas commanders. but prime minister benjamin netanyahu calling it a tragic incident and promising an investigation, though giving no signs he'll halt the military offensive in rafah. the death toll in rafah bringing protesters onto the streets from new york, to los angeles, to paris, where demonstrators clashed with police. many of the families at the rafah camp had been displaced

several times already by the fighting, but were still unable to outrun the war. why did those innocent people die, what was their guilt, this woman asked? now they're packing up their tents once again and preparing to move on. >> raf sanchez reporting from israel for us. the president has talked about a red line in rafah, that it will not tolerate a full-scale invasion from israel. when you see the images coming out of this camp of these palestinian refugees, many of them women and children, truly horrifying images, what do you make of that red line? what does it take to cross the line for president biden? >> well, you know, it might be time for us to back up and look at this from the very beginning and realize what hamas has accomplished here. a horrible terrorist organization that wants nothing more than to wipe israel off the

face of the planet went into israel and committed atrocities knowing what netanyahu's reaction would be, knowing that this would stop the progress of normalizing relationships between israel and other arab nations in the middle east, knowing that there would be a disproportionate response. when i say disproportionate, i mean numbers of civilians killed. i'm not saying there's anything that israel has done that comes close to the horrible atrocities that were purposely committed by hamas back on october 7th. what hamas wanted more than anything is to isolate israel. they also wanted to recruit more extreme terrorists to their cause. when you have something happen like happened over the weekend with these women and children being burned to death in a camp,

innocent, that creates more radical terrorists for the hamas cause. so what i would ask benjamin netanyahu at this point is, what is the goal here? how do you think you're ever going to get ahead of this if by your actions, even if it is a tragic mistake, you're creating more of the people you're trying to eliminate? i don't know how in the beginning he thought they could eliminate every single hamas extreme terrorist in gaza. it is what it is now. i worry for israel because of how they've been isolated on the world stage as a result of the sheer volume of innocent civilians that have been killed. >> what is the president to do if this continues? he talks about a red line, and there are some who have said in the last 24 hours, if this isn't

a red line, watching what these women and children went through in this camp, many of them killed, what is? how does the president handle prime minister netanyahu right now? >> he's trying to do all of this back channel. the most important goal, i believe, for this presidency right now is to get netanyahu to resign. netanyahu is holding onto power by his fingernails because of the far right, who sees the destruction of gaza in all areas of any palestinians in israel as their goal. their goal is very extreme. that's how he is in power. if he backs up on them, he cannot be in power anymore, because he doesn't have the coalition he needs. i think biden has to continue to try to press other people in the israeli government to move as quickly and as strongly as they can to get netanyahu out of that

position. >> we'll be staying on top of this story. meanwhile, back at home, severe storms across the united states left a trail of death and destruction over memorial day weekend. maggie vespa has the latest. >> reporter: storms washing through the northeast overnight, capping a memorial day weekend of wild weather. with more than 70 reported tornados touching down across 15 states friday afternoon, leaving at least 24 people dead. the governor saying five were killed in kentucky alone after multiple reported twisters plowed through that state sunday night. >> when it hit, you could feel the floors wave up and down. >> reporter: dawson springs southwest of louisville with home after home shredded.

>> we go upstairs. there's nothing left really. >> upstairs is like gone. >> yeah, yeah. >> reporter: the family's grandparents sat on their bed in this nearby home, torn to pieces. miraculously, they survived. this morning people are also picking up the pieces in oklahoma, arkansas and valley view, texas, where video shows an apparent tornado mangling this gas station with winds up to 140 miles per hour. >> as we were running, the windows exploded around us. >> reporter: the building torn apart as terrified customers took shelter in bathrooms. hard-hit communities hoping for a break as they try to piece shattered lives back together. >> these storms happen in an instant often with no time to get out of the way. maggie, thank you. coming up, we'll go back live to the courthouse in lower

manhattan when donald trump's criminal trial is about to begin. plus, donald trump picks up the backing of one of wall street's biggest political donors. andrew ross sorkin tells us who it is, next. ♪♪ unpause life when symptoms pause it. with a multivitamin plus hot flash support. (♪♪) daily zz for quality sleep. (♪♪) and enxtra for focus and clarity. centrum, powered by clinically studied ingredients. switch to shopify so you can build it better, scale it faster and sell more. much more. take your business to the next stage when you switch to shopify.

welcome back. former president trump has picked up a major endorsement. blackstone's ceo steve schwarzman. >> steve schwarzman now in

support of a candidate who said he was going to be a dictator. that guy right there supports a candidate who says that the chairman of the joint chiefs should be executed for treason. there's the guy right there who says that many people he knows, ceos and media companies, should be charged and convicted of treason if they're ever critical of donald trump. that's the guy, steve schwartzman believes trump should be able to execute his political opponents and not be

charged with that crime. he says he would have immunity as president of the united states if he executed, executed his political opponents. we could go on and on all day. a guy who said he wanted to terminate the constitution, going to basically build concentration camps for illegal immigrants and guy who says kim jong-un -- >> violent, profanity-laced threats. >> a guy who says kim jong-un is a great leader, love letters. >> that's his choice, steve schwartzman. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin. i guess steve schwartzman cares about other things.

>> blackstone not only controls about a trillion dollars of money under management, including pension funds from all over the country and the world, but through his portfolio of businesses, he's also one of the largest employers in the country. within blackstone, there is a unique divide, which says steve schwartzman is on the trump side now. jonathan gray, who works right under him, is a very outspoken biden supporter. it's very interesting bedfellows inside that office space. at the same time, it's worth noting -- you know, you go back to 2020 even before the january 6th attack, schwartzman was supporting trump almost to the end. even after the election was

over, he was still with trump. it only came with a lot of pressure for him to effectively step away from trump. it wasn't a full condemnation of any sort. again in 2022 he said he wasn't going to support trump. in fact, what he said is i'm going to look for new candidates. here we are. i think this is true of a lot of folks on wall street. two things are happening. one is they're looking at the polls and saying who's going to win? they want to be on the side of winners. craven might be the word. >> weak, pathetic. all those words fit here. >> there is that. and then they are doing it either under the cover or because they genuinely believe, and i think there are a lot of folks who think trump will be

better on israel than biden, but not necessarily for jewish people. that's a very separate complicated issue, which is to say there's a lot of folks on wall street saying, well, because of what's happening in israel, i want to actually go with trump now, but they're not looking at some of the domestic issues in the united states as it comes to discrimination and the like against jewish people. it's a very complicated dance, but that's the dance we're seeing. craven is the word. joe, you've got it. >> it shouldn't be that complicated when you have donald trump saying you can't support jews if you don't support him. he's not taking a firm stance on some of the issues that are bedevilling joe biden when it comes to gaza and the war.

claire, we've talked about this a good bit. people say i'm going to do this because it's going to make me even more money. and the bs that joe biden is a, quote, socialist. no. lowest jobless rate over time since the 1960s. i could go on and on and on and on. this economy, the strongest economy in the world, the dollar at generational highs. all the things if donald trump were doing it, he'd be crowing about it every day. but with biden, no. instead, this guy wants to support, a lot of wall streeters want to support a guy who has promised to be dictator on day one. >> our economy, like you say, you would think they would look after their self-interest here in terms of how wall street is doing right now.

now, i've got to tell you the truth. i think this may be a win for joe biden. to have this guy who is emblematic of income inequality and the folks who all rabidly for donald trump, the people they should hate. i was invited to have lunch with steve schwartzman in his private dining room. this was the most opulent dining room, persian rugs, the finest china. then this guy actually had the nerve to have a nicer dessert than i did. they brought him in really nice berries and i had some old, ugly piece of cantaloupe. he had a big bowl of berries. i had just come off a campaign trail where i had been through rural missouri where people were dying for health care and trying

to get internet, and this guy had the nerve to serve himself this opulent dessert while i was sitting across from him having graham crackers. this is where joe biden can break through. if steve schwartzman is for this guy, he is not for people who take a shower after work. >> andrew ross sorkin, you know what's so fascinating is, we always talk about the threat to democracy, but i would think that somebody on wall street would understand the threat to american capitalism, the fact that donald trump wants to bring all the power into the white house. he wants to pick the winners. he wants to pick the losers.

he wants to decide what ceos are guilty of treason. he said it. they are literally choosing a guy who wants to do what orban has done to hungary. >> you're making the point for steve schwartzman, which is that there are a group of people on wall street who are very happy to cozy up to him in hopes that if you befriend him now, he's going to somehow help you later. they spent a lot of time in the white house last time, so they want to spend a lot of time in the white house again. they're hoping they'll have his ear by getting in at this point and saying we're with you. even nikki haley last week, what

do you think that's about? you know what it's about. >> i don't understand the stupidity. everybody understands he likes you, he'll do you a favor until he won't. like what's going through steve schwartzman's head. >> i'm not saying he's a bad person. he has a huge career in business. he's a lifelong republican. i do genuinely think he was hoping another candidate would emerge. that candidate has not emerged, and i think he's looking at his choices. given the way he thinks about the world, this is where he lands. >> he would choose an authoritarian, a guy who promises to be an authoritarian if he calls himself a republican despite the fact he was a lifelong democrat before this and is about the biggest

government republican ever, ran up the biggest debt ever, et cetera, et cetera. andrew ross sorkin, on that happy note, thank you so much. donald trump's hush-money trial resumed moments ago. closing arguments are set to get under way. we're going to get a live report from the courthouse and legal experts coming up straight ahead. d.

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all right. things are moving now in the closing arguments in former president trump's criminal trial. let's go straight to the courthouse. vaughn hillyard is live outside the courthouse in lower manhattan. also with us, senior legal affairs reporter josh gerstein.

what is happening right now inside the courtroom? >> reporter: mika, closing arguments are officially under way in just the last two minutes. todd blanche, defense attorney for donald trump, beginning to address the 12 jurors who are going to determine donald trump's fate of whether he is guilty in this alleged hush-money scheme reimbursement case. todd blanche has indicated to judge merchan this morning that they intend to deliver 2 to 2 1/2 hours of closing arguments. at that time, it will be up to the prosecution to begin its summation, its closing arguments to these 12 jurors. the prosecution has indicated to judge merchan that they intend to take 4 to 4 1/2 hours to deliver their closing arguments. that should take us pretty close to the end of the day.

judge merchan in the last few minutes asking the jurors to talk amongst themselves to see whether they would be able to stay beyond that 4:30 time deadline that usually the court comes to an end, suggesting they could get through closing arguments here this evening if they are being to stick around. at that point in time, the judge will deliver jury instructions. that should take about an hour. at that point is when deliberations will begin. this could all happen rather quickly. but todd blanche beginning his closing arguments to the jury that will decide donald trump's fate. >> we know that alvin bragg is in the courtroom today. we know eric trump, don junior and tiffany trump are there at the courthouse today as well. i think people went, whoa, when they heard 4 1/2 hours for the

prosecution's closing arguments. this will be a long day. how do these projected times strike you? >> as long. i think i've had trials that lasted less than 4 1/2 hours. i also come from a federal district in which speed was prioritized and favored. it seems to me to be a very long time. i was talking to danny a little bit before we started today. i think in cases like this the jury has heard all the evidence, they've seen all the witnesses. they're smart, they get it. they're going to have all the evidence in the jury room for deliberations. i'm not sure they need a 4 1/2 hour summation from the government. i hate telling you sitting here how i would do it, because i'm not actually there doing it. but i think a closing argument in a case like this could be 30 to 45 minutes easily. >> no cameras in the courtroom.

in new york, we'll remind viewers that the defense goes first in a criminal. what should people be watching and listening for today? >> often the defense does go first and the prosecution usually goes last. traditionally, that's because they have the burden. in federal court, they go first and lasting. the defense goes in the middle. the prosecution has the burden. it never, ever shifts. here in new york city, you have a situation, as in other state courts, where the defense does go first. they make their argument. i agree these arguments could all be done in a much shorter period of time, but i also understand the psychology of lawyers. we always live in fear of leaving out that one thing in closing arguments that a jury might seize upon. the prosecution is probably thinking in a case like this --

it's arguably one of the most important cases in american history. they need time to put up their powerpoint. i feel like i can promise you there's going to be a powerpoint. prosecutors love powerpoints, and for good reason. they have the burden, so they need to put a lot of information in front of the jury and explain it to them. we, the defense, have no such burden. all we do is pot shots. you don't see us trying to build a house, because we don't have to build a house. we just need to crumble theirs, pull out a few bricks and cause it to topple. michael cohen is going to be a major theme. the factual issues are bad for the defense. the legal issues are where they have some daylight. they're going to argue things like intent to defraud and did trump actually cause these false

entries. they might have a chance arguing that donald trump didn't actually cause the false entries to be made. >> let's get into the substance of what the prosecution has. trump's social media in the last 24 hours is saying this is unusual and unique to him and evidence of the witch hunt that the prosecution goes last. >> it's not unusual. it's not unique to him, and it's not evidence of a witch hunt. this is absolutely standard operating procedure in new york. if you went to a thousand trials in the state of new york, you'd see a thousand defense attorneys begin the closing argument phase and a thousand prosecutors go last. if he were in federal court, he'd be particularly unhappy,

because there the government goes first and third and the defense goes in the middle. again, there is a reason for this. it's not unique to mr. trump. it's because, again, the government has the burden of proof. is it advantageous to go last? yes, it is. is it advantageous to have the burden of proof? no, it is not. that is how those two things are balanced out. >> josh, we have closing arguments today, jury likely to get instructions tomorrow. then it goes to the jury of donald trump's peers. walk us through, if you will, the things in your that will determine whether or not donald trump is found guilty. >> well, jonathan, i think, you know, as danny was saying the first thing that the jury here is going to have to look at are the facts and whether the prosecution has proven the facts of this case. that's partly why i don't quite understand why four or four and a half hours would be necessary after sitting through a good portion of this trial. it seemed to me like the facts

were pretty well established and i actually felt that even without michael cohen, the evidence that trump was involved in these payments just circumstantial evidence was very, very strong. i mean, very few of us would think that we could have more than $400,000 paid out to someone over the course of a year in checks that were signed, ten of them signed by trump himself, you know. it is very strange if that were to happen and you wouldn't have any idea where the money was going. even without michael cohen's testimony, i think the factual basis for the charges is pretty strong. i think where i expect the jury will spend a lot of their time is on the questions of intent that as of this moment we still don't know what judge merchan is going to say to the jury about what trump needed to know about the illegality here, if he's to be convicted in federal court as chuck was just discussing, if

this case had been brought in federal court, we know the standard would have been a knowing and willful violation of a law, at least for the election law portion of this case, and we still don't really know exactly how justice merchan is going to charge the jury on that issue. is he going to require that prosecutors to meet that same standard, which could be very tough for them to do, or is he willing to let them meet a lower standard on this intent issue. i suspect the deliberations will spend a lot of time on that question. >> so, vaughn, as we have been talking here, todd blanche, the defense attorney for donald trump, has been unfurling his argument here, the early moments of his closing argument. what have you heard so far? >> reporter: yeah, willie, right here, i want to read the quote directly from you, todd blanche to the jury, president trump is innocent. he did not commit any crimes and the district attorney has not met their burden of proof, period. you should want and expect more than the testimony of michael cohen. todd blanche, in what is

expected to be about two hours of closing arguments, is beginning to present the case that, number one, michael cohen is a liar, and that, number two, this is a case about the falsification of business records. all but dismissing stormy daniels to this jury, saying her allegation from 2006, number one, should not be met with credibility, but also is not at the heart of this case. instead, less so focusing on the actual election fraud that is being alleged by the district attorney's office, instead focusing on the falsification of the business records. and that the invoices that were created by michael cohen and that the ledgers and the checks that were created by the trump organization were then provided to donald trump in the white house. and todd blanche is suggesting to this jury that it is incumbent on them to determine and rule on whether they believe that the beyond a reasonable doubt that donald trump created with fraudulent intent by signing those checks.

and that here, when we're looking at those 34 felony counts of the falsification of business records, that it was those charges specifically that they have to determine that why donald trump did what he did. and to suggest that he was simply, well, working in the white house he kept a busy schedule, and instead he was focused not on this conspiracy that is alleged by the district attorney's office, but simply paying his long time personal attorney michael cohen for actual legal services not reimbursement for stormy daniels payment before the 2016 election. >> it does appear the defense is going right at michael cohen, saying the prosecution has hung its case on this guy who you should not believe. what will the prosecution have to do later today to shore that up? >> you're absolutely right. no surprises there. in fact, i think danny, really good defense attorney, could go down to the courthouse right now and this is not a criticism of mr. blanche, give the exact same closing argument that mr.

blanche is giving. the government will flip it around. they will say that their case is not built entirely on mr. cohen, but they won't disavow him, of course, they'll say that his testimony has been corroborated in numerous ways by numerous witnesses and by all of the documents, that they have met their burden of proof, and, this is important, i think, the jurors don't have to surrender their common sense at the courtroom door. they can look at this wholistically, see what happened, draw reasonable inferences, circumstantial evidence counts just as much as direct evidence. and that they, the government, has essentially woven a tapestry of evidence and witnesses that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that mr. trump is guilty as charged. >> danny, last word here, a flip of what we're seeing here. we'll give you the defense the last word. is it fair to say you've come out of this long weekend feeling the prosecution has a strong case? >> i do. i think they have always had enough evidence for a

conviction. that doesn't mean i think that they will get the conviction, but there certainly is enough evidence for a jury to find him guilty. however, there are some glimmers of hope for the defense on the issues of intent. this, to me, is a case that you can simplify to the facts are very much in the prosecution's favor, including the shady sort of appearance of the facts, which helps the prosecution. what also helps defense is the legal issues and primarily that they're just a little complicated. as evidenced by the fact that we, the lawyers, struggled at times during the charging conferences following what was going on. >> all right, we'll be, of course, on msnbc covering this all day long, so stay tuned right here. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera and jose diaz-balart pick up the coverage after a quick final break. coe verage afa quick final break.

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