disengaged from traditional news media, getting information from tiktok, how does it happen? >> i'm so happy to see the campaign engaging on all of these different, you know, platforms. if you are not following biden hq and the tweets and the clap backs and the receipts that are constantly coming out of that, you know, account, we have to talk to people wherever they are. i know folks were surprised to see philly elmo, but philly elmo is a philadelphia icon, okay, just like in the annals of gritty and all the rest. so for folk who is didn't get it, why is elmo there -- >> if you know, you know. >> if you know, you know, and vice president harris and president biden know. >> we'll play this tape for you and delight in that replay. pennsylvania state representative malcolm that. is our show for this evening. now it is time for the last word with my buddy katie phang in for lawrence. katie, i haven't seen you yesterday since we were sweating

it out in the overflow room. >> it was definitely not cold, contrary to what donald trump likes to tell people that it's a, quote, icebox, i actually think we were all profusely sweating. but it could have been because there's just so much at stake. alex, malcolm, one of the brightest, brightest stars in pennsylvania. i'm a huge fan. i'm glad you got a chance to talk with him. >> he's a star. he's available in the 10:00 p.m. hour too, no, he's not, heist ours. >> he can hang out in our a block if you would like. >> we're not doing that tonight, my friend, but bless you for the suggestion. have a wonderful show.. >> thanks, alex. and today it's 421 days since donald trump was indicted on charges of falsifying business records to pay off porn star stormy daniels in an attempt to hide their affair in the final days of the 2016 election. and a 12-person jury of new york citizens began a historic process, deliberations to determine whether to convict a former u.s. president of any of the 34 felony counts. trump was at the courthouse

today where he has been every day there has been trial and where he must remain every day the jury deliberates his fate. here is how one court reporter captured trump after the jury left the courtroom. todd blanche appeared to gently shake trump awake, nudging his shoulder, as the six alternates filed out of the courtroom, and he was the only person still sitting down. judge juan merchan handed the case over to the seven men and five women jurors with this charge, quote, it is not my responsibility to judge the evidence here, it is yours. you are the judges of the facts, and you are responsible for deciding whether the defendant is guilty or not guilty. these 12 jurors are the, quote, judges of the facts. only they have the power to decide whether donald trump is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. the judges of the facts have spent 22 days in a manhattan courtroom listening to 22 total

witnesses, more than 80 hours of witness testimony, and seven hours and 37 minutes of closing arguments. today judge merchan read all of the jury instructions to help the jury decide trump's guilt or innocence as to each of the 34 counts. the jury spent four and a half hours deliberating. we have some insight into the juror's deliberation process through notes that they sent to judge merchan. at 2:56 p.m., the jury made four requests to review some of the most damaging witness testimony by tabloid mogul david pecker and by star witness michael cohen. including david phone call with trump about karen mcdougal, his decision to pull out of the deal to transfer the former playboy playmate's life rights to michael cohen and the now infamous trump tower meeting in august of 2015. an hour later the jurors then sent the judge a second note

requesting to rehear judge merchan's instructions. judge merchan asked the jurors to decide by tomorrow whether they need to hear the entire set of jury instructions over again or just part of them. court will reconvene at 9:30 a.m. tomorrow morning. the judges of the facts will then continue deliberating, deciding the fate of donald trump. leading off our discussion tonight is andrew weissman, former fbi general counsel and former chief of the criminal division in the eastern district of new york. he's an msnbc legal analyst and the co-author of "the new york times" best-selling book the trump indictments. also with us is adam clasfeld, who's been in the courtroom every day of trump's criminal trial. he's a fellow with just security. gentlemen, it is a pleasure to have you both here. andrew, i don't have you here on set, i am remiss to not have you here, but i'm grateful for you to join us. adam, i'd like to start with you, because you are here with

me. let's talk about the fact that donald trump actually called into dan's radio show and said, quote, the whole thing is crazy and nobody knows what's happening. well, i don't know about him, i'm not the criminal defendant, but you and i clearly know what is happening here. but one of the things he raises is the fact that the jurors asked the judge to reread the instructions. i do think that's interesting. we don't know if they want the entirety of the instruction, adam, or maybe just a portion, but what does it tell you about the fact they're asking for those instructions again? >> it tells me they're paying attention, that this jury could have -- if trump were actually right, that they were hopelessly biassed against him, they're a new york jury, the fix is in, they don't need to listen to all of these instructions again. these instructions ran on for an hour, and they include detailed information about the interpretation of the law. concepts like unlawful means, which trump made a big issue of

today. they want to understand the fine legal points of the law. and this is not unusual. it is very common in a case to hear the jurors to want to get in more detailed explanation of certain instructions. here under new york state law, they need to ask permission to hear any of the instructions. they don't have it in written form. so it shows they're paying attention. it shows that they are meticulous. and it shows that they want to get this right. >> so andrew, these jury instructions, there's 55 pages of them. i mean, we've talked about this, you and i, offline a lot. is there a disadvantage to the fact that these jurors don't actually have their hands on these jury instruction, or does it actually -- there's a school of thought i was thinking about myself, maybe it actually helps the prosecution that the jurors don't have these jury instructions because there is some complexity to the legal concepts that are here. >> you know, in the federal system, it's left very much to each judge to decide whether

they want to send a written copy back or not. and i know some judges who do, some judges who don't do that. and i think it's because there are sort of up sides and downsides because, yes, you definitely want them to understand the law, but you know, this isn't sort of a biblical -- where you want them to get hung up on certain words and to obsess over that as opposed to understanding, you know, what are the legal parameters but then really digging into the facts. and so i think, you know, again, there are up sides and downsides. in new york, they'd simply not allow to send that back, as i understand it, and that's why the judge will reread certain portions. and that's very common. we are officially now in the tea leaf part of the -- this case, which we're all going to be looking at each note trying to figure out what's going on. there's no question, i agree

with adam, that this is a good note in terms of assessing the jury. it's a good note if you are the prosecutors. but we're still a long way away. but i do think that big picture is kind of the one that you said, katie, which is if you start with donald trump denigrating the process, you know, all three of us do not know what's going to happen, but all three of us who've been in the courtroom day in and day out, we know to our core that this is a fundamentally fair process with good lawyers on both sides and an eminent judge presiding over it. so you know, that, i think, is the real take-home message for no matter what happens in the case, it has really been handled superbly. >> so adam, there is something that you just mentioned a couple of minutes ago, it's the unlawful means definition. and i'm actually thinking if i'm the prosecution, i would want the jury to actually have this specific definition, because if you look at it it says that there is no requirement for the

jury to unanimously find or agree upon the unlawful means by which donald trump was able to corruptly, you know, reach the felony that they have in this case. and that gives the jury the opportunity to consider three different ultimate, you know, ways by which this happens or a myriad of ways that this happens. so is there enough clarity, though, do you think going into the jury deliberations today after those very long close eings yesterday, which i thought were effective, but they definitely were long. do you think there's enough clarity for this jury? >> i think there is going to be clarity because this jury is seeking it. they are asking for the instructions, and specifically this instruction, unlawful means. >> yes. >> now, if they are unclear about this, i would expect they're going to ask for more instructions. this is an instruction that took on a life of its own after it became public today a lot of commentators kind of took it out of context and made it sound like the judge was turning the

concept of jury you than -- no person other than trump's own attorney had said that this was a usual instruction. i actually brought the transcript from last week, because it's really a very interesting moment. he said, we submit -- and this -- he was arguing to get a different departure from the instruction. he asks the judge, we submit that the jury should be required to make a very specific finding as specific as your honor's discretion would permit. so it's very clear what happened at trial. the judge asked him, do you agree that's not ordinarily required. and bove replies, certainly. and at that moment, he makes a concession, this is how it happens under this election law conspiracy, you can -- the jury

has the discretion to decide which were the unlawful means. and in this case, there's a wide variety out there. the falsifying business records, this is one of kind of choose your own adventure for the jury. the jury can decide that all those shell companies that michael cohen created after calling donald trump and going into first republic bank that those bank records for those shell companies contained lies as attested to by a witness. they could find that federal election law was broken -- violated. they could find that the 1099s for the tax authorities were misleading. and if that is too many options for the jury, that's the nature of the case. that is the widespread nature of the concealment that went into the disguising of this hush money. >> you know, andrew, that's a buffet of criminality that adam has just offered up to us. but i do think one thing that's been a critical part that we

heard through the closings and also that we're seeing woven throughout the jury instructions is this issue of witness credibility and what was remarkable to me and something that stood out to me during these jury instructions was that an accomplice as a matter of law jury instruction that was tailor made for michael cohen's testimony stating that in new york you cannot convict a defendant based solely on the testimony of an accomplice. you have to have some corroborating evidence, which is why that first note that came out from the jury, i'm really stuck on the fact that they were asking for david testimony, not only concerning that 2015 trump tower meeting where they -- i call that the original sin, where they agreed to the catch and kill scheme with the national inquirer, and that set the table for the buffet of criminality that adam talks about that ended up happening over the next few years. they sought information about why, why the national enquirer would not sell the life rights of karen mcdougal, why they ripped that up agreement despite having reached a written agreement to be able to do so.

a lot of this seems to me, andrew, that david pecker, friend and mentor of donald trump, is the person who will corroborate very squarely what michael cohen said was the original conspiracy. >> i couldn't agree with you more. i think it's useful for everyone to go back and think about how we were reporting on this case when we heard david testimony. everyone was taken aback because they went, oh, this is so solid. here you have a witness independent of michael cohen saying that there was an agreement that he had as a principle with donald trump as a principle. michael cohen was a staffer who was going to carry out the instructions of that agreement and maybe even more surprising is that donald trump's counsel didn't really cross examine david pecker in terms of his creditability. so you're left with this kind of jury note saying tell us about more, we want to be reminded about what david pecker specifically said. he was the first witness, this

is many weeks ago, but it was very much a little bit like hope hicks' testimony, which was also damaging, which was also something that donald trump's counsel didn't really challenge. and then finally just to your law point, new york has this rule which is that you do have to have corroboration of an accomplice. you cannot be convicted solely, the keyword here is solely, on an accomplice's word. i will say de facto that is the federal system as well, even though we don't have that real, de facto we do have that rule. no one would dream preesenting a case to a jury where the only witness was somebody like michael cohen who was an accomplice. you always would have some sort of corroboration, usually strong corroboration, but i completely agree with you, while the note is a first sign, there's no question if you are the prosecutor, you think this is a good note. it is going to the heart of the

case. it is going to a clear piece of evidence that was not challenged. and it also did ask for some testimony from michael cohen. >> yeah. >> which suggests that they didn't write off his testimony as the defense asked them to do. >> and maybe it becomes an apples to apples comparison in terms of testimony and michael cohen's testimony about that critical meeting. thank you so much for joining us tonight. and for joining me this afternoon for our msnbc youtube livestream. you were fantastic. we're going have one when the verdict comes out, so i'm going to put you on the spot right now, you're going join us, right, for that? >> absolutely. >> we wouldn't have it without you. thanks for being here. coming up, donald trump's favorite federal judge, aileen cannon, a trump appointee overseeing the classified documents and espionage case in florida just gave criminal defendant donald trump another procedural win. how is special prosecutor jack smith likely to respond? that's next. ck smith likely to respond? that's next.

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this is a reminder that donald trump was scheduled to go to trial on federal charges related to illegal retention of classified documents last monday, may 20th. that trial date has come and gone and it doesn't seem like trial will be rescheduled any time soon. and now the florida federal judge who donald trump appointed is once again ruling in his favor in the case. judge aileen cannon denied a motion by special counsel jack

smith seeking to prohibit donald trump from making inflammatory statements about law enforcement after he pushed the wild and dangerous lie that a standard fbi procedure document included in the mar-a-lago search warrant was an assassination plot. even though the search had been planned for a day when trump was 1,000 miles away in new jersey. judge cannon rejected jack smith's motion on procedural grounds and rebuked smith for not conferring with the defense more thoroughly, writing, quote, the court finds the special counsel's proforma conferral to be wholly lacking in substance and professional courtesy, any future, nonemergency motion brought in this case shall not be filed absent meaningful, timely, and professional referral. that's judge cannon taking the side of donald trump's lawyer who is maid that argument in their response. but as "the washington post" notes, smith wrote in a footnote that prosecutors contacted trump's lawyers, but his lawyer, quote, do not believe there's

any imminent danger and asked to meet and confer next monday. judge cannon said nothing about the risk of threats and danger to law enforcement officials by donald trump's repeated lies, so this is yet another example of judge cannon's slow walking decisions on a growing number of pre-trial motions. in a new profile of judge cannon, the "new york times" describes her as an industrious but inexperienced and often insecure judge whose reluctance to rule decisively on minor matters has -- in a log jam of unresolved issues. she has largely accomplished this by granting a serious hearing to almost every issue, no matter how farfetched that mr. trump's lawyers have raised playing directly into the former president's strategy of delaying the case from reaching trial. joining us now is bradley moss, national security attorney who represents people in the intelligence community and

andrew weissman is back with us. when i last spoke with you, i think it was monday, perhaps, we didn't have any movement from judge cannon at all in response to jack smith's motion. and then we get this order, which was remarkably insulting to jack smith, but that's par for the course. let me be frank, because i've seen judge cannon with the government in court. that's exactly what she does. but i tweeted, bradley, that this is a form over substance issue. she could have set a hearing after doing a very quick briefing schedule on this and addressed the lack of conferral, but didn't jack smith actually confer with donald trump's lawyers and they said we don't think it's an emergency? >> comes back to that phrase that we've been talking about since the beginning of this particular case, judicial discretion. particularly when we're dealing with procedural matters. so yes, there were certainly alternate options that judge cannon could have taken here. she certainly could have set a really quick briefing schedule. she could have also asked jack

smith's team to submit declarations or multiple declarations about the nature of what they viewed as the threat from these statements from donald trump. that was a path she could have taken. she chose not to. she didn't do what donald trump wanted, which was immediately, you know, order some kind of sanctions, evidentiary hearing, she did tell jack smith, go back, do at least something to show me you, quote,unquote, conferred with donald trump's team, and provide me with something more. put more meat on the bone before you bring this to me in a nonemergency form. is that within her discretion? sure, of course, it is. was it a bit of an unforced error by jack smith? a little bit, they could have done it a different way. would other judges have done what she did? probably not. >> we have to speak frankly, though, about whey think is not even a double standard here. to bradley's point -- and i'm very respectful of process, right, there's a procedure that has to be followed, but in this instance, this motion wasn't filed on an emergent basis, but

it does allege something that is of serious security and safety for law enforcement officers who executed a dually authorized search warrant that was approved by a magistrate judge and was done in coordination with the united states secret service. and so in order to be able to curb what is happening with trump, is there a fear that there's going to be a first amendment issue that's going to be raised by trump's defense? >> well, i can't believe i'm about to say this, but i disagree with brad. bradley, i think this is something that is absolutely outrageous. i think this is the kind of thing that is going to be -- when she ultimately denies judge -- when judge cannon denies jack smith's application when it gets refiled, i think this will be taken up to the 11th circuit. this is something that the

government obviously cares deeply about. indeed, the attorney general of the united states talked about how this was a dangerous and false misrepresentation by the former president endangering law enforcement is the kind of thing that is the reason that you go into government to try and prevent and to make sure that you are upholding the people's safety, including those in law enforcement who put their lives on the line. for her to have put this off when it was a matter of safety -- >> mm-hmm. >> -- on a ground that -- it's not even a technical ground, there was conferral. and for the defense to say, i, the defense, don't think that's an emergency, that's not the issue. the issue is does the judge think it's an emergency. so i think this is one where the judge is dead wrong. i think she is making up the procedural issue. i think it is the kind of thing

that is going to be used by jack smith rightly on appeal. and it shows the same kind of cavalier disregard for law enforcement that caused judge cannon to be reversed not once but twice by the 11th circuit when this investigation and case was just beginning. and you know, i think she is really playing with fire here and she's playing, i think, with people's lives. so i really think this is sort of outrageous conduct by somebody who took an oath of office as a judicial officer. >> bradley, i'm going to give you the chance to respond. i mean, i'm going to outnumber you i think right now, because i agree with andrew. this is a fore gone conclusion. we know she's going to say that this motion cannot be well taken by jack smith because, like i said, i think she's going to say there's a first amendment issue here in terms of his ability to speak. but this definitely is a serious risk to the lives of these law

enforcement officers who, because remember, jack smith's been fighting the disclosure through the discovery process of the identities of many people that have participated in this investigation as well as this prosecution. >> yeah, well i hope to see when the -- when the justice department does refile this, when jack smith's team comes back with a new motion, i would like to see a lot more substance, not necessarily just in the brief. i certainly think they should preempt some of the first amendment issues. there have been plenty of rulings and analysis on that in the other cases in manhattan and in d.c. they can use as a foundation. but put some meat on the bone and call judge cannon's bluff. she and the trump team have kind of, you know, been wishy-washy on the idea there's a threat to public safety, a let to law enforcement. get agency declaration if needs be. show her, spell it out like she's a 5-year-old if need be. here's the threat. here's every time he made these remarks and it got amplified on

various media outlets, here's the various threats the agencies received, et cetera, et cetera. call her bluff on that. it gives you a better grounds for appeal if she were to deny it on the merits. >> andrew, there's a tipping point, though, to your point, that the 1 #19 circuit has bench slapped her repeatedly, is this the one that's the tipping point to either get her off the case or get it reassigned in some way? >> it may be, but you know, this is one where i would say as somebody who used to be in law enforcement, it's more important that the merits of this be dealt with properly because we are dealing with safety. and if it leads to the secondary goal of the 11th circuit deciding, you know what, it's the third strike and you're out, so be it. i would note that it really is important to remember that what she did here and her not really

giving weight to the -- the allegations of harm to law enforcement is exactly, is exactly what the 11th circuit denigrated her decisions about when they reversed her twice, which was her cavalier disregard of the national security of this country. that is a core why she was reversed twice by a conservative panel of the 11th circuit. so this is very much of a piece -- we'll have to wait and see what she does herself on the motion and what the 11th circuit does, but on this i do agree with bradley, this does give the government a chance to sort of reset and file things that have more meat on the bones, as bradley said. >> well, i'm going to predict the refiling of the motion will happen, she'll set a substantive hearing, probably involving

evidence, which is absurd, and she'll do it in about six months, thereby, you know, maybe removing any opportunity to deal ewith her, and as my colleague rachel say, watch this space, because i think that's exactly what's going to happen. andrew weissmann, thank you for joining us. bradley moss, my friend, so good to see you as well. still ahead tonight, why donald trump spent another day as criminal defendant trump awaiting a verdict in his new york election interference case. president biden spent another day on the road today as candidate biden alongside vice president kamala harris making their case to black voters in pennsylvania. that's next. to black voters i pennsylvania that's next. sleep... ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand. and wakes up feeling like himself. get the rest to be your best with non-habit forming zzzquil. ♪ ♪

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today while donald trump sat in criminal court in manhattan while the jury deliberates his fate in the 2016 election interference case against him, president biden arrived at one of his largest campaign rally this is year in the battleground state of pennsylvania. the campaign stop at girard college a predominantly blackboarding school in philadelphia, marks a rare joint appearance with both president biden and vice president kamala harris as the two announced a new initiative called black voters for biden/harris. >> because black americans voted, kamala and i are president and vice president of the united states because of you. that's not hyperbole. because you voted, donald trump is defeated former president. with your vote -- with your vote

in 2024, we're going to make donald trump a loser again. because you voted, i was able to keep my commitment to appoint the first black women on the united states supreme court. justice ketanji brown jackson. a promise made and a promise kept, and i appointed more black women to the federal circuit courts than every other president in american history combined, every single president combined. we appointed 200 black judges -- i moon judges in the federal branch, and guess what, the next president, they're going to be able to appoint a couple justices, and i'll be dam nshgszed if -- >> in philadelphia, black residents have exprisoned concerns about public safety and crime in the city. vice president harris spoke about what the biden administration has done to reduce gun violence. >> we promised to take on the issue of the epidemic of gun

violence knowing that today in america gun violence is the number one cause of the death of the children of america. not car accidents. not cancer. gun violence. we took on the issue knowing black americans are ten times as likely to be the victim of gun homicide. and i'll tell you, i have personally held too many hands of mothers and fathers as i attempted to comfort them after their child was killed by gun violence. so to address this crisis under the president's leadership we passed the first major gun safety law in nearly 30 years. >> joining us now is reverend mark kelly tyler. he serves as pastor of mother bethel ame church in philadelphia. reverend tyler, thank you for joining us. you got to attend the

biden/harris campaign rally, and i wanted to ask you, what was that energy like at the event and in the room? >> good evening, katie, and thank you for allowing me to be on with you tonight. it was electric. i mean, really, you don't usually see that type of energy this early. you know, we haven't even really hit june just yet. that's kind of september/october energy, but it felt like people were excited about the opportunity to be there with the president with the vice president and so many elected officials as well who've been out there fighting the good fight. so again, really, the best way to describe it is it was an electric atmosphere. >> share with our viewers kind of what your congregants and other members in your community are telling you about this upcoming election in november and their concerns about what this election means to them. >> well, listen, quite frankly a lot of the people that i speak to within my congregation, within my community are afraid. certainly people have frustration about, you know, the cost of milk, the cost of a

gallon of gas and everything else, but they're also afraid that, you know, that this country will make a big mistake and go back to what we had from 2016 to 2020. while things may not be perfect, we certainly don't want a repeat of what we had before or even worse. and so i would say that if you had to put your finger on the pulse of it, that really is the concern. that's not to say that, you know, as we think about the last four years that there are things that we want to see improve and that we want to see those things become even, you know, bigger wins. but people certainly in my circle do not want to go back. in fact, i saw those poll numbers, and i'm having a hard time getting my head around it, because if you believe those poll numbers, that would mean i would know three people in my circle that have changed their vote. i can't tell you one person. i don't put a lot of stock in those numbers. >> you know, reverend, you are very involved with an

organization called power, philadelphians organize to witness, empower, and rebuild. and part of the mission for power is centering on criminal justice reform, ending mass incarceration, and police accountability. i know there is a concern in your community at large as well about making sure that the streets are safe, that your children in the community are doing okay. talk about whether or not those concerns are being addressed by the biden/harris sxhrgs whether or not you think that that's going to be looming large in the minds of voters in philadelphia when they go into the ballots in november. >> well, listen, that's a great question, and i'm glad that you raised it, because what power is also about is also fighting for a living wage. we're also about fixing the inequity in public school funding in the state of pennsylvania to make sure that public schools regardless of their zip code receive the kind of funding that they need so that every child gets a quality seat. so we have a number of issues that we're fighting for.

and if you want to make philadelphia safe, if you want to make cities like where i grew up in oakland, california, safe, then you've got to actually put resources in the community. in fact, i find it laughable that the same republicans whether it's in the state of pennsylvania and harrisburg and our legislature or in washington, d.c., in the congress who claim to be about the safety of black people are the same ones who continue to put roadblocks into raising the minimum wage. we've asked for something that is very, very minimum, a $15 minimum wage, which is what dr. king asked for, if you adjust for inflation, back in 1963 . and the same people who tell us they're for us will not help us get a higher wage, which everyone knows will bring down crime if you can put more food on the table and quit forcing people into a black market economy. >> well, i'm glad that you actually lent that perspective, because it's important, and i want to thank you, reverend mark kelly tyler for joining us

tonight. i appreciate it. >> thank you very much, have a great evening. >> you too. >> and also joining us now is the democratic speaker of the pennsylvania house of representatives, joanna mcclinton, the first woman to serve as speaker, which i find fantastic. malcolm was on with alex wagner just before you, and i was thrilled to tell him that you were going to be on the show. so thank you so much for being here. talk about this biden/harris rally that happened today. there was a lot of energy, according to reverend tyler, and there was a lot of excitement, but you know, we want to make sure that the expectations are managed. and so, talk about what is going on with your constituents and what are the primary top of mind concerns going into november. >> so thank you for having me on this evening. i was at a high school in my community just last week when i got off the road coming from harrisburg, we were celebrating some students who had the most academic achievement right in

west philly at sayer high school. we gave out certificate, it was great. but before i left, one of the senior member, senior citizens, that is, i call them the wisest neighbors, in the community pulled me aside and said, hey, what's going on with the biden/harris campaign, and are they going to be on the ground in philadelphia. and i let her know that every single conversation i've had with the biden/harris team has been about them being on the ground in philadelphia. there is, of course, no demographic that any elected official should take for granted, and certainly that includes the african american community. the same way we lowly state representatives at the bottom of the ticket have to earn the votes of our neighbors, our president has to do the same. and he and our vice president, kamala harris, have such a great record of achievement it's about telling the story of their wins and the contrast between the terror that preseeded them and the 45th president and what we cannot allow or go back to any

time soon here in america. >> you know, another big issue is going to be reproductive right, and it's not only just in the states. it's obviously going to be a federal issue. there's going to be a battle for the u.s. senate seat for your state going into november as well. are the voters paying attention to that race? are they concerned about those issues that are federal as well? >> absolutely. reverend tyler was talking about why is the minimum wage in pennsylvania stuck at $7.25. well, ours is is stuck at the federal rate, we've been working in harrisburg, we passed a bill with our one-seat democratic majority almost an entire year ago. it's waiting in our republican-controlled senate. people are thinking about every issue. they're thinking about voting rights. they're thinking about our democracy and its future. they're thinking about whether or not they can afford a house. they're also, of course, thinking about what has our president been able to deliver for us. we're talking about stability, diversity to the courts, and so

much more. >> pennsylvania house speaker joanna mcclinton, it's an honor to have you here. thank you for being here. >> thank you. and still ahead, the stakes, the strategies, and the realities of where we are in this presidential election just 161 days from election day. simon rosenberg joins us, that's next. day simon rosenberg joins us, that's next [sniff] still fresh. ♪♪ get 6x longer-lasting freshness, plus odor protection. try for under $5! as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+

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women's rights, our freedoms, democracy is on the line and we have a choice. this is what i am out there saying. we have a choice. we can have my husband who is calm and steady and strong and has character and integrity, or we have the other choice, which is chaotic. >> that was first lady dr. jill biden on good morning america today laying out the choice in this election, calm versus chaos. the biden harris campaign hope that voters have not forgotten donald trump's chaotic four years in office. according to recent polls donald trump is performing better than president biden, but listen carefully. among respondents who are least likely to vote, the new york times reports, quote, the polls have shown donald trump with an edge for eight months, but there is a flashing warning sign suggesting his advantage might not be as stable as it looks.

that warning sign, his lead is built on gains among voters who don't pay close attention to politics, don't follow news and don't regularly vote. trumps dependence on these letters could make the race more volatile. there is a chance that disengaged democratic voters could revert to usual partisan leanings. alternately, they might stay home, which could also help biden. joining us for more is simon rosenberg, democratic strategist -- simon, i was so excited to have this conversation with you and i was telling melissa, the executive producer, i normally don't look at the poles at all. what i found to be fascinating about this piece, and this is what stuck with me, biden leads trump with at least four percentage points among people who voted in 2020 and 2022. you have a combination of factors. voters who are engaged in

exercise their right to vote and voters who are high information voters, versus trump voters that are low information or don't do it. dig deeper for the viewers and explain what's going on here. >> first of all, you would rather be ahead among the people who are most likely to vote in this election. joe biden, this is one of the reasons i have been arguing that things are better than they look. among the people who are most likely to vote, joe biden does much better and in some cases is actually winning the election. i think the big question in front of us about these disengaged voters is, will they, once they decide to become a voter, as jill biden said earlier, the first lady said, and the choice in front of them is presented to them and they become informed, will they stick with their trump lien or become democrats and help joe biden when? it is my belief and the belief of the campaign that those

voters will go through this process of becoming more interested. they have this choice thrown in front of them by the campaigns in the seven states and what we have seen in 2022, 2023 and 2024 is that when voters are given a choice in elections of all kinds, they pick the democrats and they don't pick the republicans. i think that gets to the fundamental optimism we have about the election right now. >> i want to pose a question to you that i do many of the political analyst they speak with. if you have firmly entrenched voters on both sides of the aisle, what will it take to make them converts? do you give them more information? i feel like we put it out there and it is not being consumed, so what is the answer? >> what campaigns do is put information into voters heads that they don't already have. in 2022 we had this extraordinary thing happened. we were all told that the red

wave would comment it would be disastrous for the democrats. we had these big, muscular campaigns that went into battleground states and controlled the education environment. we educated voters and used that money to push to the upper end of what is possible. the same process that works so well is about to happen in many of these same states in 2024. so we have enormous tools to overcome the big right-wing noise machine and the bluster of the day today and it is called a campaign. the campaign has unprecedented resources and volunteers working all across the country to bring our story and present the choice that joe biden talked about to voters. when we've done that, we went and they lose. i still think that is the likely scenario. >> simon, i have probably 30 seconds but i wanted to bring this up. biden holds a 20 point advantage among latino voters

and with black voters biden's lead is 80 points among those who participated, so it looks like regardless of communities it is engagement that makes a difference. >> right. if you think about it, engagement means you are considering what is in front of you. you make a choice. you are educated. those voters that are not yet checked in are willing to go through the same process all of the other voters will go through and will they become more democratic? i think that is the likely thing that will happen and why there is this confidence right now. >> people need to become high information voters -- thank you for being here, simon. i appreciate it. >> good to see you. and we will be right back.

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and that is tonight's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now.