case. it won't just automatically lose the election. biden is going to have to still make the argument, and i don't think it is decisive. i don't think that simply being found guilty -- of course, he's going to appeal it anyway before the election -- i don't think that in and of itself is enough to guarantee that biden would win. >> remarkable thing, a convicted felon. would have been crazy to hear not just a couple years ago. senior columnist for "the daily beast," orioles fan and not the biggest fan of robert de niro, apparently, matt lewis. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us on this morning. "morning joe" starts right now. then trump tells you he is the greatest president -- i love this one -- he says he is the greatest president for black people in the history of america, including more than abraham lincoln. [ crowd booing ]

i mean, can you fathom that? where in the he -- like i said, he injected too much of that bleach. i think it affected his brain. >> president biden drawing yet another contrast on the campaign trail, this time in philadelphia. he and the vice president made a pitch to black voters. we're going to have much more from their campaign stop in just a moment. meanwhile, the former president was rage posting from the courthouse holding room while a jury deliberated his fate in the criminal hush money case against him. we'll bring you expert legal analysis ahead of the jury reconvening later this morning. plus, we'll go through a possible major shift in policy on the war in ukraine as the biden administration now appears open to allowing u.s.-made weapons to be used in strikes in

russian territory. >> willie, i'm just looking at this now. i mean, after all of this, they dropped the charges. >> breaking news. >> can you believe that? >> there was so much stuff. you'd think after all this coverage, it really seemed -- >> they just dropped the charges. >> -- like they were serious. yeah, willie, i can't explain it. >> we can't explain it. >> charges dropped. >> you just drop the charges on the number one golfer in the world? take us through it, willie. >> beautiful delivery. nice setup. yeah, scottie scheffler -- >> thank you. you knew exactly what i was going the entire way, by the way, which makes you you. >> we sort of saw this coming yesterday. we talked about it. louisville, kentucky, officials have dropped all charges against world number one golfer scottie scheffler. there was a hearing yesterday. the jefferson county attorney

said prosecutors will not pursue the case, asked for the charges to be dismissed. he said mr. scheffler's characterization that this was a big misunderstanding is corroborated by the evidence. it goes on from there. i think what scottie scheffler said that day at valhalla golf club ahead of the pga championship, when he went out, after having spent time in a jail cell and shooting a 66, that this was a misunderstanding. his hope that it would be worked out. people looked at the video, saw it probably was a mistake by him, and perhaps the cop's original characterization of what happened wasn't quite accurate. the charges now, as you say, joe, have been dropped against the world number one. >> there you go. >> the video evidence shows that what the police officer said wasn't true. >> weird morning that day. >> wasn't dragged. by the end, he was saying, he tore my pants. i don't know how, except when he came running up, knocking on his window, hung his pants on his car. there's no dragging in this entire process. >> what a weird scene.

>> well, and why -- i don't know why he would lie about it. >> right. >> don't know why they amped this up the way they did, but they did. my gosh, we always support police officers whenever, you know, police officers should be supported. >> this was weird, and the charges are now dropped. let's get to the news. along with joe, willie, and me, we have the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann. he is a partner and chief political columnist at puck. and deputy managing editor for politics at "politico," sam stein is with us this morning. and thank you for doing "way too early" for us. reports of hand-wringing from democrats about president joe biden's re-election chances. "the new york times" is out with a new piece this morning entitled, "perhaps lost in the polling: the race for president

is still close." in it, chief political analyst nate cohen writes that november's election will likely come down to just three states, michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania. where have we heard that before, joe? as cohn points out, biden could lose every other swing state, but if he wins those three, he will most likely win a second term. for what they are worth, most polls show biden right in the mix in the rust belt. that includes the time zone recent poll with siena college. >> the end is near, freaked out. >> biden is running slightly better than his 2020 numbers with two groups that traditionally lean republican. white voters and voters over 65. as cohn puts it, quote, "biden has already done what would ordinarily be the hard part. the polls are not perfect.

they've been off before, and they'll be off again. they wouldn't really need to be off target by much at all for mr. biden to squeak out a victory. but even if the polls were exactly right, in the sense that mr. trump would win if the election were held tomorrow by the precise margins implied by the recent polls, mr. biden would still have a very real chance to win in november." so you've talked a lot about this, but you've also lived it, watching elections closely by experience. it's sort of what you've been saying, although, i'm all okay with the panic if you apply work to it. >> right. >> if panic inspires you to work hard, go for it. >> right. over the past several weeks, democrats have been freaking out. you know, i -- -- i'll just say, in 2016, people freaked out when we said donald trump could win. in 2020, i've even dared to say how likely i think it is that --

or in 2024, how likely i think it is that joe biden will win. i know everybody will freak out and say i have my head in the sand. you look at the numbers. you look at what biden is sitting at right now. you look at the fact he's had a low water mark. you look at the fact that the two areas that he should be having the most problem with, white voters and men, older men, he's actually -- older americans, he is actually doing very well. my feeling has always been the same as what nate cohn said, he's already done the hard part, right? he's already done the hard part. i always say, in politics, conversion is the hardest thing to do. what joe biden has to do now, as cohn says in the article, is he needs to bring his base home. black voters, hispanic voters, young voters. much easier to say, come home. it's going to be okay. stay with me here.

we're facing a real and imminent danger. much easier to say come home, than say, hey, go to that house over there you've never been in before. no, conversion is hard. politics, this is my creston coleman theory. if your family -- and i've told people this since i was 30. no, no, don't convert. if the family has been a crest family their entire life, they're not switching to colgate. 1990s toothpaste wars. it's marketing, biden has to bring them home. he states they're very close, very tight, and i always talk about blocking and tackling. they're light yeas ahead right now, the biden team, of organizing on the ground. is this a pep rally for joe biden? no, it's not. i'm just -- just like it wasn't a pep rally for trump in '16 when everybody said, no, he can't win.

yeah, he can. he can get 270. we were mocked and ridiculed and abused because we predicted the hurricane was coming in september and october. i'm here to tell you, the freaking out, the democratic freaking out is just so tiring. i think the thing that bothers me the most is they're freaking out about things in a national campaign, right? they're freaking out, whether it's about this obsession with the national race and the national polling, whether it's truth social tweets, whether it's all the crazy things and confused things donald trump says at rallies. that's fine. but this race is not going to be won in the courthouse in manhattan. regardless of the outcome of the case, it's going to be won by knocking on doors in kenosha, by planting yard signs in the

suburbs of detroit. by making sure you've got the philly suburbs locked down, and you get the margin you get by making phone calls. i'm sorry to go so far into this but, again, the stupidity i've been listening to over the past several months, about how this race is over and, you know, democrats are freaking out and trumpers are so overconfident. john heilemann, it's just absolutely insane. it reminds me when i ran the first time. i would drive past state fairs, and i would see all my opponents. they'd be waving to people at state fairs. i'd drive by laughing. then i would go to a neighborhood where i knew there were -- what i called super voters who voted every two years. while they were waving at tens of thousands of people, i was knocking on doors, shaking hands, planting yard signs. it's how i won.

i didn't have money. nobody knew who i was. it was targeted. this political race this year is targeted. it's basically about 7, 8, 9 congressional campaigns. in wisconsin, in michigan, in pennsylvania. i thought the nate cohn article explained this better than any i've ever seen. explained why biden, man, biden has as good a chance as he had in 2020. right now. >> well, good morning, joe. i will say, the last time we were talking about "the new york times" on the air, you and i were having a healthy, spirited exchange. you know, you were pretty angry, annoyed, irritated at the -- at that last wave of siena battleground state polling. i guess someone at "the new york

times" may have been listening. this seems like a useful corrective on that front, this piece by nate cohn. the paper acknowledging, without getting into any debate over the methodology of those swing state polls, noting the evident truth, which is, you know, it's a narrow path. i mean, i don't think there are very many democrats who would not like to -- who would rather win this race with more than exactly 270 electoral votes, and, yet, to your point, you know, this has always been the challenge for biden. those three states, the blue wall, if the blue wall stays in tact, and to your point, another way of thinking about that, of coming home, is if joe biden can do in 2024 exactly what he did in 2020, he'll win those three states. he'll get 270 electoral votes, and he'll be re-elected. as i said, i think, you know, a lot of democrats would like to have some margin to play with. i continue to say that even in the other states, nevada, arizona, georgia, north

carolina, it's still a margin of error race in those states. i'm going to keep saying that until it is not a margin of error race. to your point, about 800,000 voters across those three states, michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, 800,000 voters out of 350 million people in america, those 800,000 voters, unlike joe scarborough, the biden campaign does have money. the biden campaign doesn't have to bring those people home on the basis of just joe biden's charm. they have more money than the trump campaign. they have more resources on the ground in those three states. they have more experience, having done it before, four years ago, about how to get those people to come out, and they have other things like this trial, which, you know, on the margin, what do they need to do to get the people to come home? remind those people of what it was like when donald trump was president four years ago, and remind those people of who donald trump is. i think the trial, especially if there is a conviction, helps in that effort. they have a lot of clubs in

their bag here, and, again, the path -- 270 is not a comfortable path to walk. that's a tight rope to walk. >> right. >> it's a rope that they have walked before. >> well, and i'm with you, i'm not saying he can't win the sun belt states. >> i know. >> people like you, people are suggesting the sun belt states are gone. obviously haven't followed presidential elections in nevada the past half century and haven't been seeing what's happening in arizona over the past four to six years. so, you know, those races are still in play. in i were to criticize robert de niro front, i think i would say, willie, again, just explaining what type of race this is, i wouldn't send him down to the courthouse in southern manhattan. i would send him to kenosha. i'd say, go into a living room of a union worker.

just sit down and talk to him. have the kid film it. put it up on tiktok. put it up on youtube. get in people's homes in kenosha. get in people's homes in bucks county, pennsylvania. get in people's homes where this race is going to be won or lost, and let people see, you were fighting hard for every one of their votes. that's how the next president will be elected. >> and there are plans to do just that. speaking of one of those battlegrounds, in pennsylvania yesterday, president biden was there with vice president kamala harris, rallying in philadelphia. the event was the launch of the campaign's planned outreach. a big, enthusiastic event, speaking to black voters. >> because black americans voted, kamala andry president and vice president of the united states because of you. that's not hyperbole. because you voted, donald trump

is a defeated, former president. with your vote, with your vote in 2024, we're going to make donald trump a loser again. maya angelou said, when someone shows you who they are -- believe them the first time. you got it, kid. you got it. i'm showing you who i am. trump has shown you who he is. today, donald trump is pandering and peddling lies and stereotypes for your vote so he can win, for himself, not for you. donald trump, i have a message for you, not in our house, and not on our watch! folks, the threat to trump poses is greater in his second term than his first. it's clear when he lost in 2020, something literally snapped in this guy. i'm serious. that's why january 6th happened.

he unleashed an insurrection. now, he's running again, and he is clearly unhinged. he calls insurrectionists who stormed the capitol patriots. patriots. if re-elected, he wants to pardon, quote, every one of them. [ crowd booing ] let me ask you, what do you think he would have done on january 6th if black americans had stormed it? think about this. what do you think would have happened if black americans had stormed the capitol? i don't think he'd be talking about pardons. >> if he wins a second term, i promise you, he's going to go even further. so all of this is to say, who sits in the white house matters. [ applause ] it matters. it matters for the people of america and for people around

the world. >> rev, this was really, of a concerted effort by the biden/harris campaign to reach out to black voters. this was at a school that's predominantly black. talking in faith centers, churches, kind of places you spend a lot of your time. what do they need to do to do what joe is talking about, which is to bring the democratic base back home and convince them that they deserve another term? >> they need to keep doing what they're doing now and more so. they've done our conferences. president biden spoke at our national action network conference virally and engaged all of us. they've gone to some churches. so has the vice president. i also think they need to show the contrast. when you have on one side president joe biden standing there as he did yesterday at gerard, with the u.s. president who was a u.s. senator and the attorney general of the state of

california, contrast that with donald trump, who went to the bronx for a black and brown vote ers, who wrappers under indictment. which black america do you want to project, they ought to say to voters. we stood and did the george floyd policing executive order when we couldn't get republicans to make it law. he stood and supported, saying we don't want to have the police have any kind of reform in any way, donald trump did. donald trump was for qualified immunity, which was in the george floyd bill. so when you contrast what each stands for, then when you have a man saying that i've been the best president for black americans since abe lincoln, it is to call us stupid. i mean, he is really insulting our intelligence. you've been better for blacks than fdr, for john kennedy, than lincoln johnson and the great

society, than barack obama? i mean, you can argue what you want to argue about what you think you did, but to say you were better than them means you think we're moronic. i think if they keep contrasting who they are and who trump is, and showing what they have done -- they have a record. unemployment among blacks is lower than it's been in two generations. we've seen them deliver in terms of the infrastructure. we've seen them in terms of inflation reduction, how it has disproportionately helped blacks. they have a record to run. hbcu money. show your record. show your contrast. show who you're running against. i agree with joe, show that this is home. donald trump has never been home for us. he's not even been in the neighborhood, less knowing the house. >> it is patronizing. he said, black voters like me because i have a mugshot now. can you imagine? he thinks it'll resonate with

black voters. >> some black voters, he remember the mugshots he wanted all of us to have when he wanted the death penalty for the central park five. he should never bring up mugshots and blacks in the same sentence. >> joe, reaching out the black voters, the event was a large crowd, and they were genuinely enth enthusiastic. when we talk about the contrast, supporters paint joe biden a certain way, as being old or whatever it is, put up the split screen of two events. put up that event yesterday, the president of the united states, with that crowd, and then just watch the hour or 90 minutes or however long the ramblings go on in a donald trump event, and tell me who is losing when you watch those. >> the crazy thing is -- >> rage posting. >> -- just yesterday, willie, i had somebody i know very well call me up and tell me that,

oh -- and i get this call every three months -- oh, such and such has known joe biden for 50 years. went into the white house, and they were shocked. they were just appalled. he's completely lost it. he's staring off into space. he's lost control of blah, blah, blah. i kept hearing this before i went in and actually had lunch with him and sat and talked to him about foreign policy for close to three hours. i thought, gee, this guy actually -- you can tell he's been doing this for 50 years because he is smarter than any politician i've talked to. we talk to people every day, and we know who can follow us and who can't follow us. i don't think i could get 15 minutes of foreign policy from donald trump. but i heard that yesterday, and then i saw this speech last night. i'm like, you know, republicans just -- okay, my wife is telling me to stop saying people are acting stupid.

>> you need to be more validating. >> i'll be more validating. republicans are blinded by their hatred of joe biden, and they don't understand that they're actually hurting themselves. they always do this. they set expectations so low. will he drool during the state of the union? will he be able to complete sentences? then he knocks it out of the park. >> mm-hmm. >> they always set expectations low and lie about him. their running thing is that he's lost his mind, he's not cogent. it's not true. when he shows up, he wins. the expectations game is all politics is. that's part one of it. part two, sam, i did need to get back to this because my better half does say i need to validate people. >> it's a scary time. >> who may be panicking over donald trump winning. the stakes are so high. i've said the stakes are so

high. i wasn't really talking that much about democrats, other than those that are sitting in cocktail parties all the time talking about how joe biden is going to lose. maybe you'd want to pick up the telephone and ask how i don't can help instead of whining all the time. but it is a frightening time. the stakes are higher than they've ever been. obviously, i do understand why people are panicking. i guess i would just ask them to actually focus on the reality that's in front of them instead of all the things that frighten them. >> yeah. i think one of the issues here is that people don't -- not everyone recognizes the heightened stakes, right? if you look at some of these polls, you know, we've forgotten collectively about what 2020 was like. covid and the shutdowns and even january 6th, to a degree, has receded in the collective consciousness. i think one of the hurdles the biden campaign has to overcome is to remind voters of that period.

the trump presidency didn't end in 2019. events like yesterday are designed for that. you routinely hear him say donald trump snapped after he lost the election. it's to remind voters of that. ultimately, though, you know, i think the issue here is not so much, you know, will black voters, will young voters, will hispanic voters flock to donald trump? that's ultimately the problem. with issue for biden is, this can he get them re-engaged? can he get them enthusiastic about his candidacy? or are they going to be lethargic and not engage in the political resonance? joe, you and i talked about this. nate cohn's analysis is right. not only is it right, it is counterintuitive. it is rare, had been rare, for a democrat to do well with senior voters, 65 plus. biden haas done that. the poll shows if you are a likely voter, if you're among the cohort who initially votes,

you may be inclined to vote for joe biden over donald trump. it is rare. usually, the democrats have to engage the more passive crowd. now, can he get the constituencies not to shift from trump back to him but engage them in the political process? i think he is being bogged down by a lot of issues. one of them is his own reluctance to be a public communicator. he's going to step that up, obviously, as the campaign progresses. two is obviously inflation and the war, frankly, when it comes to young voters. >> yeah, you know, john heilemann, i want to circle -- i want to underline what sam also said. again, not a pep rally, just for people who have never run political campaigns before or looked at cross-tabs or understand toll pol ti understood politics up close. that is, older white voters. if joe biden were losing older white voters the way the

mainstream media suggests he is, you know, oh, he has a working class. they lost trump because he sat in the tractor trailer. no. as nate cohn said, older, white voters are stubbornly sticking with biden, and that's been as much of a surprise over the past couple years to me as has been the fact that younger voters and some black men and black hispanics are moving away. so, again, if you're biden, as cohn said, you like the fact that the hard part is done. now, you need to bring your voters home. >> right. again, i hate to give sam credit for anything, although, i don't know if you caught him this morning on "way too early," joe, his questioning related to the problems with the price of

orange juice. on the business section on "way too early" this morning, sam was talking about, man, that discussion of the alternatives to oranges, other citrus fruits that -- >> i thought that was good tv. >> -- led to a spike in prices -- >> it was compelling. >> it was. more compelling is sam's analysis now, which is something the biden campaign knows well. the concern about african-american voters, young voters, and hispanic voters, these core elements in the democratic coalition, the concern is not that they flock to donald trump but that they stay home. in a very close election, in all of those battleground states, you know, if a large chunk of any of those parts of the coalition decide to just say, screw it, i'm not going to vote, that's a problem for the biden campaign. the upside there, to your point, joe, is, again, you're not trying to persuade them in a lot

of cases to come back to joe biden. you're just trying to persuade them to do what they did in 2020 and to realize the stakes and what a devastating outcome it would be for their interests, for the interest of young voters, pocketbook interests. they're focused more on the economy than on gaza. we see that in the polling. for african-americans and latino voters, a trump re-election would be terrible for them. just, please, do what you did back -- from the biden campaign's point of view, do what you did in 2020. that is the easiest sell than trying to get older white voters who drifted away from the democratic coalition the last 20 years to come back home. those guys are sticking with biden, that is a big part why they can be optimistic in the three midwestern states. >> john heilemann, thank you. ahead on "morning joe," we'll break down what happened in court yesterday during the

first day of jury deliberations in donald trump's criminal hush money trial. plus, secretary of state antony blinken signals the u.s. may lift restrictions on how ukraine uses american-made weapons against russia. we'll dig into how that potential policy change could impact the ongoing war. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat could mean something more serious, called attr-cm a rare, underdiagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist and ask about attr-cm.

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new york city. the sun coming up, 6:31 in the morning on a thursday. the jury in the donald trump hush money criminal trial will resume deliberations this morning. yesterday, the jurors sent two notes back to the judge. the first asked to review portions of testimony from former national inquirer publisher david pecker and former trump attorney and fixer, michael cohen. the second note was for the jury instructions to be read to them again. let's bring in former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. she was in the courtroom yesterday afternoon. lisa, good morning. another day of deliberation today. i guess about 4 1/2 hours of it yesterday for this jury. what do you read into the two notes that were sent back, the substance of them? what do you think the jury was trying to get at here? >> i think the jury is trying to understand the formation of the conspiracy and donald trump's participation in it and is taking very seriously the instructions of josh steinglass,

who said repeatedly to them that david pecker's testimony was critical and they should look back at it. for example, willie, at the end of his summation, he was trying to get the jurors to focus on evidence of donald trump's direct involvement. one of the things that he said to them was, you will recall that pecker testified that after that meeting took place, mr. trump personally called pecker to discuss the mcdougle matter. he explained the defendant told him that he had spoken to michael and that michael had told him about karen. that's corroboration, that mr. cohen is keeping mr. trump informed at every step. they went on to discuss -- that is pecker and trump -- went on to discuss whether the defendant should buy the story. now, they got an instruction yet on something called accomplice liability. accomplice liability basically means michael cohen's word alone isn't enough to convict trump because cohen is trump's accomplice. they have to assure there is enough corroborating evidence that trump can be convicted.

where do you get that? from david pecker, who is one of the only people here, other than michael cohen, who says, i spoke directly to trump about the conspiracy, and he affirmed to me that he knew what was going on and that he wanted to be involved with it. >> yeah. some of this testimony goes back to the first meeting back in august of 2015. they want to understand that relationship and how close donald trump was to it. want to get some clarification from you about the jury instructions. donald trump and his minions on cable network suggesting the judge told the jury they don't have to be unanimous. that's not true. can you explain what this might be about? >> first of all, it's not true. they have to be unanimous that the business records were falsified. that is the crime that was charged. with respect to what makes falsification of business records a felony, they also have to be unanimous, that trump intended to conceal a conspiracy to promote his own election in

2016. and they have to be unanimous that he did so, or the conspiracy was through unlawful means. here's the part where they can have differences of opinion. what are the unlawful means? josh steinglass gave them five or six different options that kind of fall into three categories. one is violations of the federal election campaign act through unlawful campaign contributions. one is falsification of other business records, like michael cohen's submission of forms to the bank through which he opened the account that he used to pay stormy daniels. the third are the tax forms that the trump organization prepared when they were showing michael cohen's quote, unquote, income, that income of $420,000 that was really the reimbursement to him. you, willie, you, rev, me, lisa, we can all have different opinions on what the unlawful means are, but we all have to agree that there was a conspiracy, that it was executed

by unlawful means. donald trump is playing fast and loose here with the concept of unanimity. >> lisa, isn't that, in the judge saying that and breaking that down, isn't that a major blow to the defendant? because what the defense would have needed is for him to say you need a unanimous -- or one of the three or four or all of them? when he broke down that you don't have to agree on the elements as long as you all agree on one of the elements, even if they differ, isn't that an easier mark for the prosecution to reach and harder for the defense to argue against? >> yeah, it is easier for the prosecution in the sense that everybody can have a different take on what the unlawful means are. but i want to be really clear. to be extent that the unlawful means is an element of the conspiracy, everybody has to agree there were unlawful means. more importantly, you don't have to prove that the conspiracy

succeeded. you just have to prove that in falsifying business records, donald trump had an intent to conceal the conspiracy that was formed between and among him, michael cohen, david pecker, and a host of other people who were sort of bit participants in the drama. >> sam. >> lisa, it is sam here. >> hey. >> we're all sort of looking for tea leaves, right? i want to go back to the original point you were making, which is, the significance of the pecker testimony. >> mm-hmm. >> you know, why did that stand out as a significant testimony for the jury to say, we want to have a look at that? and can we and should we be responsible to read into that about both what we can expect for a verdict and how fast this deliberation process might proceed? >> let's start with the second part first. i don't think you can expect anything from it in terms of the

repedity. despite the exhausting closing arguments, they were paying rapt attention. they came back to the judge with a four-part request of readbacks of specific testimony. the question about why pecker. first of all, pecker was the first witness in what is now week seven of the trial with 22 different witnesses on 22 trial days. he is further away from their memory in terms of what exactly he said. on the other hand, josh steinglass repeatedly invoked pecker in the closing argument, talked about his testimony, characterized his testimony -- i read you that passage earlier. the jury is like i want to hear how that went for myself again, and i want to assure myself that to the extent that pecker is corroborating cohen, their two accounts are basically similar enough that i can assure myself that pecker's testimony means that cohen is also telling the truth here. >> jury will be back 9:30 this morning. judge merchan says they can work late if they need to but no

later than 6:00. they've got all day today to consider whether or not to find guilty of a crime a former president of the united states. msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin, thanks, as always. mika? >> thanks, lisa. the israeli military says it has seized control of a border that separates gaza and egypt. the area is known as the philidelphi corridor. 20 hamas tunnels were found by idf, and gaining control of the boundary will cut off the terror group's access to supplies. the move, however, could complicate israel's relationship with egypt as the corridor is considered a key buffer gone. israel, meanwhile, is signaling the war in gaza could continue until at least the end of the year. the country's national security adviser made the comment yesterday, saying he expects to see another seven months of combat in order to, quote, shore up our achievement.

u.s. secretary of state antony blinken was asked about that while in moldova and expressed his frustration with israel's lack of a post-war plan. >> it has to ask whether and especially in the absence of a plan for the day after in gaza, further incremental gains against hamas but gains that may not be durable in terms of hamas' defeat. in the absence of a plan, how that stacks up against some of the, again, unintended but horrific consequences of military action in a place where the people you're going after are so closely embedded with civilians. >> secretary blinken also spoke about the war in ukraine and suggested the biden administration could be open to tolerating strikes by the

ukrainian military inside russia using american-made weapons. >> we're committed to ukraine succeeding as a country. we're committed to ukraine winning the war, and i think we've shown that through the support we've provided and many other countries provided. we have not encouraged strikes outside of ukraine, but ukraine has to make its own decisions about the best way to effectively defend itself. we'll make sure they have the equipment to do that. every step along the way, we've adapted and adjusted as necessary. so that's exactly what we'll do going forward. we're always listening. we're always learning. we're always making determinations about what's necessary to make sure that ukraine can effectively continue to defend itself. we'll continue to do that. >> let's bring in former reporter for "the wall street

journal" matthew brzezinski. first of all, would love your reaction to what antony blinken has been saying, and obviously a follow up on what zelenskyy has been pleading for from not only americans but also other nato allies. >> well, if i were a betting man, i would wager that american-made missiles will be hitting russian military installations within russian territory probably within the month. we've already seen that the british and the french have said that ukrainians can use their scalp missiles to hit russian territory. because, you know, the russians are basically hiding behind their border. they have their missile batteries, their artillery batteries just inside of russia, and they're hitting ukrainian targets. the ukrainians can't hit them back with western weapons. well, that's about to change. i think the war is going to

escalate considerably because of this. >> well, and also, obviously, the russians are on the front foot right now, leaning forward because they don't have to worry about attacks behind their lines. so this really does change the entire equation, right? they can't keep pushing as aggressively toward kyiv if they have to worry about their rear flank. >> absolutely, yes. you know, this has been -- this has been a boon for the russians, that the ukrainians have had one hand tied behind their back. to actually hit the russians, they've had to use mostly, you know, homemade drones. now, with sophisticated western weaponry, they're going to go after very high-value targets. things that are extremely expensive to replace. this is going to change certainly the financial dynamic

of the war. this may be one of the reasons why we've seen what many are calling a purge within the russian military in the last month. putin is getting quite worried about his finances. >> so it's very interesting, matthew, over the last week, in our discussions over the phone, you had been telling me about putin's purge, the purge that was coming, why he was doing it. then, of course, we've since seen reporting from british papers, "the new york times" followed up with it the past couple of days, as well. but you were telling me about it last week and explained why. could you explain to those watching why vladimir putin has begun this purge? >> yeah. i mean, it's -- i'm not even sure we can call it a purge. i think he is sending a message

to the entire military industrial complex in russia, that the system of sanctioned corruption, which is a pillar of his regime, is no longer a luxury that he can afford. russia -- he didn't budget for a war that is going into year three. russia is up to 8% of gdp on military spending. that is four times the nato threshold. we here in the united states spend 2.7%. he has his rainy day fund frozen. $300 billion is frozen in western banks. he's had to raise taxes very recently. you know, for him to go after what is effectively a pillar of his regime, corruption, means that he is really worried, you

know, that he may have to go -- and he hinted that the soviets in the 1980s went up to 13% of gdp. >> wow. >> what he didn't say is that bankrupted them. he is facing potential financial ruin unless he cracks down on corruption. this is a very big deal. you know, to be a successful dictator, and he is by all arguments the most successful dictator in the modern age, you need two things, carrots and sticks. the sticks, military and state police. the carrot, you need to reward your loyal followers by giving them positions in government and state-owned companies where they have a free hand to raid the cookie jar. this ensures their loyalty. for him now to be taking out that pillar of his regime shows that i think he is really seriously worried about where

this war is going and whether russia can afford it, frankly. >> yeah. and, of course, one of the reasons why the war went so badly for so long for vladimir putin is because there was so much corruption. the investments in military infrastructure were obviously far weaker than anyone would have expected. former "wall street journal" reporterbrzezinski, thank you so much. >> thank you, guys. >> look forward to talking again very soon. >> thank you. coming up, new york governor kathy hochul is going to be our guest. she'll tell us about her new legislation addressing how social media companies target children. plus, we'll show you the major meltdown yesterday at citi field which led to the mets releasing one of their pitchers. that's all ahead on "morning joe."

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we could spend the rest of the hour listening to duke ellington and armstrong playing on the "ed sullivan show" in 1961. the legends are subjects of "the jazz men," how duke ellington, louis armstrong, and count basie." it looks into the life of the men beyond their music. "new york times" best selling author larry tye. congratulations on this book. great to see you. obviously, it's more than the beautiful music we heard there. in what ways did they help to begin the transformation of america? >> i think through themelodies, they opened america's ears and souls to black artistry, black genius, and black equal rights.

>> let's go back. it predates the clip we saw there, 1961. what was happening in america at the time that they began their rise? >> so this was early years of the civil rights movement. as martin luther king said, we don't get to social justice goals in a straight line. i think what happened was, white men who would never have let a black cross their threshold wooed their sweethearts to the music of a gravel-throated louis armstrong and duke ellington. white women who would have walked to the other side of the street if a black man came towards them, in the privacy of their own living room, kicked off their high heels and tapped their toes to the count basie band. i think this is how, for once, race faded away and america just listened. >> you know, larry, the incredible thing about this book and these three guys and the moment in history that they were so popular, is that what they did for a living, the music they

played, people's ears reacted to it. geez, these guys are wonderful. people's eyes, no, you can't come in here because you're black. one of the pivotal figures, louis armstrong. i mean, you know, we love louis armstrong. 1957, favis shuts down the little rock schools, and louis armstrong says, what these people -- what he's done to my people here in the south, this government can go to hell. a remarkable moment in civil rights history. >> a remarkable moment. up until that moment and up until louis armstrong called our war hero president, dwight eisenhower, gutless, eisenhower wasn't sending in troops to protect those kids. i don't think it was a coincidence that armstrong called him gutless, and afterwards, eisenhower sent in the troops. >> it was because armstrong thad the crossover appeal that we'd say later as a term, crossover. he wasn't just some guy that was

considered at that time in the way left. this was louis armstrong who was an american idol. he took that stand when he didn't have to. it was when black artists were beginning to be accepted by record labels. louis armstrong stood up strongly. >> he was accused of being an uncle tom, and he showed in little rock and throughout his life that that was unfair. the two most recognizable cultural figures, american cultural figures around the world in those years were mickey mouse and louis armstrong. he was a symbol of what america could be and, yet, in his home country, he would be the star at a las vegas casino and have to go in through the kitchen. >> talk to us about duke ellington. one of the things that duke ellington and a representative, aside from a great musical history, was he brought

elegance, black elegance that became fashionable in the harlem renaissance. he brought it to the american mainstream. you look at ellington and politics of that time, it was this era of elegance, black excellence, that he personified. i ended up going to see his body with my mother and ended up in the room alone. she loved ellington. i was only 18, 19. i think he died '73/'74. talk about what ellington represented in terms of bringing black excellence and elegance to the american mainstream. >> from ellington's youth, when he was a kid growing up in washington, he'd come down the long staircase in his house. he would tell his nephews to bow to him. he would tell his nieces to curtsy. he would say, applaud, applaud, because someday, i'm going to be known as duke ellington. he crowned himself arkansas

and lived up to that. he thought jazz should be negro music because it was telling the story of black america. he made it tell the story of black america. yet, one night when he went to a virginia hotel that was segregated, he was told he would have an extra charge for the sheets and pillow cases. of course, they'd have to burn them the next day. the kind of indignities that american aristocracy had to tolerate was mind-boggling. >> it wasn't just that their music was the soundtrack and they were participants in the civil rights movement, they knew the impact they were having. some traveled with martin luther king jr. in what kayw ways did that participate beyond the music? >> when king met ellington in the streets of chicago, they embraced. they didn't have to say anything. king understood what ellington and those jazzmen were doing in

opening america to all the things that he was trying to promote in terms of equal rights. what they did was they joined sit-ins. they spoke out at little rock. in 1945 on the cusp of world war ii, just at the end of world war ii, count basie said, i will not play with my band in any venue that is not integrated and that will refuse my integrated band. they said things that were revolutionary at the time. they were quiet instructionists and laying the groundwork for the civil rights movement in america. >> courage to go along with the talent. "the jazzmen: how louis armstrong, duke ellington, and count basie transformed america." larry tye, thank you so much. >> great to be here. donald trump asking republican lawmakers to help him

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beautiful shot of new york city. it is the top of the second hour of "morning joe." welcome back. it is thursday, may 30th. mike barnicle is with us. joining the conversation, we have "new york times" opinion columnist david french. and msnbc political analyst and publisher of the newsletter "the ink" annan giridharadas, great to have you on this hour. later this morning, the jury in former president donald trump's criminal trial will resume deliberations after meeting for around four hours yesterday. nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett has a recap for us. >> reporter: jury deliberations wrapping up for the day in former president trump's hush money case. the first trial of an american president. seven men and five women deliberating for roughly 4 1/2 hours after sitting through more than an hour of complex instructions from the judge, who told the manhattan jury to set a i side any bias for or against

mr. trump and to not ignore any evidence simply because you want the trial to end. judge juan merchan walking jurors through each of the 34 counts mr. trump faces, for allegedly falsifying his business records to cover up michael cohen's payoff of a porn star on the eve of the 2016 election, which mr. trump denies. the charge normally a misdemeanor raised to a low-level felony here because prosecutors argue the allegedly doctored records were meant to cover up another crime. in this case, a conspiracy to promote mr. trump's candidacy in 2016 through, quote, unlawful means. at trial, prosecutors raised possible violations of multiple other laws that could qualify as those unlawful means. including campaign finance violations mr. trump was never charged with. the judge instructing the jury to reach a guilty verdict, they need not be unanimous about which unlawful means triggers that felony. a major advantage for prosecutors.

>> it is a disgrace. i mean that, mother teresa could not beat the charges, but we'll see. it is a very unfair trial. >> reporter: the jury asking for a readback of certain testimony from the very first witness, tabloid boss david becker, as well as cohen. jurors instructed not to consider the possible sentence mr. trump could receive. if convicted, he faces anywhere from four years in prison to just probation. the presumptive gop nominee can still be elected president, even if he is found guilty. >> wow. >> david french, you are not usually brought on to talk about donald trump's travails inside a courthouse, however, you have a sharp, keen legal mind. i'm curious your thoughts about yesterday, the jury instructions, the questions the jury asked. give us some insight on your thoughts. >> yeah, it can be very frustrating, trying to read the tea leaves regarding jury questions.

it's sort of best to say, huh, that's interesting, and not speculate. because when you're in the jury room -- >> agreed. >> -- it's just -- you don't know what's happening in the jury room. i have been sitting out there waiting for jury verdicts to come down in my career and have tried to read the tea leaves of jury questions and often find little correlation between the ultimate outcome of the case and what they were going to read. but i think what is really interesting about this case is that the factual allegations here against trump were very, very strong. but what happens with the jury is not really going to have much -- there's not going to be many implications for the legal analysis that's going to follow on appeal. were these charges legally sufficient? the factual allegations against trump, i believe, were proven during the trial. the weakness of this case is not in the facts of the case. the weakness of the case is in the law of the case where they're trying to connect one alleged crime to another alleged

crime, when he wasn't charged with that other alleged crime. that's what causes this to be difficult. however the jury decides this isn't going to have much meaning for the court of appeals when it is deciding whether these charges were legally sufficient. >> david, you bring up a point that i tried to underline last week. regardless of whether he's found guilty or not guilty, if you're a part of trump's legal team, you've got to believe, because the facts are not on your side in trial, you've got to believe your best shot is actually on appeal, where you have a lot of legal scholars scratching their heads, saying, wait a second, if federal elections commission didn't charge him with this, why is a manhattan d.a. charging hi? >> that's one of the big questions here. one of the underlying crimes

were, you know, election campaign crimes that were not charged. now, michael cohen pled guilty to some of them, but a guilty plea is not precedent, legal precedent for this case. and so there are a lot of legal questions around it. at the same time, the factual allegations of the underlying affair, and also, why would trump do this? why would trump enter into the hush money deal when he was a known playboy? why would he do this? that was clearer in the trial, as well. the stormy daniels testimony wasn't some frivolous fling but something that appeared much more predatory, in line with the way donald trump talked in the "access hollywood" tape. that's why the hush money deal became so important. it was reaffirming that donald trump's conduct that he bragged about on the hush money tape, that is what made it dangerous. the facts are very clear here. the law, we'll see. >> yeah, it actually brings to

light all the things that he said on "access hollywood." that may have been a one-two, you know, that would have been -- >> right. >> -- what got him in trouble. what's interesting, as i've said for some time, any member of congress, had they done what he did on the hush money to impact the outcome of the election, you'd have members of congress charged by the fec, senators charged, congressman, house members. >> if this was anybody else. >> i believe so. but they did pass on donald trump. >> they did. the biden campaign is calling robert de niro's news conference outside the manhattan courthouse a good moment. a senior campaign aide says the team viewed the oscar-winner's appearance on tuesday, along with january 6th officers harry dunn and michael finone, as effective because it reached non-political audiences that aren't tuned in every day. since it was covered by

entertainment networks and across non-traditional media, such as tmz and "people" magazine. the aide adds, it came at the apex moment of donald trump's hush money trial. the biden campaign says they are going -- they are looking to lay out the stakes of the election and break through the trump news cycle. so, willie, i feel like -- i don't really get a sense that people are that interested in this trial, first of all, and, as we were talking about yesterday, i just feel like i don't want to promote confrontation in this election. that's not something i'd be looking to do, just given how dicey and divisive and mean trump followers seem to be, especially donald trump himself. >> yeah. i think part of this was to show from the biden campaign some of that fighting spirit that you often see on the other side. de niro wasn't afraid to go down there and mix it up. obviously got mixed reviews for whether or not they should have

done it at all, for the staging of it, and other elements on it. but you sort of read a deeper point into this. explain for us what meaning making is is what you thought of the appearance by de niro. >> i'm going to defend my guy, robert de niro. not just because i am a lifelong fan, but i think this was a very misunderstood and important moment. which doesn't mean a perfect, clean moment that everybody is going to love. it means that the biden campaign, by putting him out there in this way, i think, was finally recognizing something it has ignored, which is, you have to help voters make meaning in modern politics when a fragmented media environment, fragmented attention economy, everybody is getting things from different places. meaning doesn't make itself. a trial doesn't organize itself into a narrative in people's heads on its own. a trial could be interpreted by people as trump is being persecuted because he is fighting for me, or a trial

could be interpreted as, this guy is a lifelong criminal who finally is facing accountability. that does not happen, if you talk to political psychologists, doesn't happen on its own, right? what authoritarian leaders like trump, but, frankly, around the world have become very good at is understanding their meaning-maing role prior to asking for your vote. first, they almost play the role of the news media. they help your array experience, organize facts, the stimuli of life, organize it into a story. these people are doing this to you. this other is doing this to you. and then, as a second stage, they say, vote for me, and i'll solve that. what pro-democracy leaders are doing, including the president, but around the world you see this, is they just kind of ask for your vote. they kind of have this faith that if they do the right thing, pass the right policies, do the right solar credits or build the right bridges, you will feel it, and it's not true. all of us are in this business because, actually, putting stories around things, framing

things is actually very important. this moment to me was the biden campaign doing something a little different, which you may like or may not like, but putting meaning around this story and helping educate people about what this trial means for this campaign. >> what's interesting, joe, is if you listen to actually the substance of what de niro said, he wasn't talking about the trial and the courthouse behind him. he was talking about the man and what would happen if he were re-elected. >> right. >> yeah, and i will say, mike barnicle, as molly jong-fast said yesterday, the knock against democrats through the years is that they're afraid of their own shadows. they don't take chances. whether you liked this or not -- >> nup. >> yup. >> it was a democratic presidential campaign saying, screw it. we're going to go down and get in the scrum. we're going to fight. we'll take a fighter down there, somebody that's not going to shrink. we're going to break through. as anand said, they did break through on non-traditional news

networks and programs, which is exactly where they need to go. because people that are watching news programs, for the most part, know how they're voting in the fall. >> yeah. look at it this way, joe, campaigns are like movies. to play on robert de niro's appearance, campaigns are like movies. if you watch the donald trump movie, it's an entertaining spectacle. he has a story. he's an actor. he stands in front of crowds. he makes them laugh. he makes them think. he makes them angry. he's a joke. but he is very, very good at what he does. if you watch the democratic campaign, there's no plot to the story they're telling, other than what anand just said, vote for me. so the democrats have to tell their story, and their story has to be woven into the story of donald trump. you create a bad guy, a villain, and you tell the story of the

villain. you tell the story of the rescue that's going to come at the end of this movie that we're talking about here. the end of the story in the movie is election day. >> that's right. and when it is actually, you know -- if it was 2008 or 2004, maybe it is a different story. but when it is literally a guy who has said he wants to be a dictator on day one versus a pro-democracy leader, if you can't spin that into a story, then there is something wrong. joe said this half sentence of a thing that i think is so important, actually, which is, being afraid of your own shadow. i'd put it this way, american democracy is at risk because of the democrat party's risk aversion. there is a real risk aversion that is the dominant culture of the party, just not wanting to do weird stuff, not wanting to do stuff like this, not wanting to get a little messy, not wanting to do things that are going to, you know, alienate a third of people. i actually think risk aversion

here, these are folks i talk to, you talk to, this is something i know they are struggling with on the inside. there are often younger people in the spaces who want to do things that they're not being allowed to do. i would just say, if you're running against fascism in 2024, maybe a little less caution, a little more boldness, try some stuff. >> yeah. >> huh. >> david french -- >> i don't disagree. >> -- i know you felt the same way i did back when we would watch presidential races between republicans and democrats growing up. often, democrats were afraid of their own shadow. it was hilarious watching them being stiff and stumble their way through, going, well, can i say this? no, i can't say that because i'm going to offend this group, this group, and this. well, maybe i can say -- and they'd put themselves off because they were afraid they were going to offend this group, this group, and that group. i think the first real break in that was barack obama. obviously, bill clinton knew what he needed to do to win, but

barack obama in 2008, you could tell, he wasn't scared of his own shadow. he became the first democrat since fdr, i think, to win two times with a majority of the vote. >> well, you know, one of the things that's really interesting right now is that biden's big problem is that he isn't breaking through with the voters who don't pay much attention. this is a huge issue for the democrats. they're doing well with repeat voters, with the people who consistently vote, high-propensity voters. but he's got a bunch of people out there, joe, who are leaning trump, who are completely disengaged from politics. think about how challenging that is as a group to reach. does robert de niro break through with them? maybe, maybe not. it's very difficult to say, hey, we need to do this messaging change and this messaging change to reach people who aren't paying attention at all and who are actually, in many ways, the backbone of trump's polling lead

at this moment. i totally agree with the idea that you cannot run a timid campaign when you actually have to break through into the lives of people who are disengaged from politics, who don't pay any attention. how to do that, that's above my pay grade. but there's absolutely a need to break through with people who aren't paying attention. >> david, i wanted to ask you a question because we share a love for -- it's going to be a long way to get to where i'm going. >> not make it a long way because we have a lot to get to. >> i will shorten the path. >> thank you. >> we have the connection of the university of kentucky. you love the university of kentucky. i do. both of my parents went there. i read in "the new york times" yesterday that mrs. alito also went to the university of kentucky. i was stricken. if you've been reading the news coverage the past couple week, you would have thought she was like ginni thomas, right?

okay, this woman who is going to hang her flag upside down, she must have been really political politically engaged. no, she's a librarian. for the most part, stayed as far away from politics as possible. she arranged a cookbook after ruth bader ginsburg's husband died, you know, as an act of love, and sort of helped people on the court. to help rbg. i'm just wondering, for this university of kentucky grad, do you -- what are your thoughts on all of this? i must say, maybe it's just the old line conservative in me, like, hanging a flag upside down? i would never do it in a million years. >> i can't even imagine. >> i don't care if somebody attacks me. again, i'm not saying this, just targeted mrs. alito, but i'm

saying this, it is so shocking to me that, let's just say, our tribe, our former tribe, behaves this way now. if this had happened in the '60s, the '70s, the '80s, the '90s, the 2000s, if anybody had hung a flag upside down, they would officially be outside of our conservative tribe. now, you have this mild-mannered homemaker, she grew into being a homemaker and a housewife after a career as a librarian, is hanging flags upside down in the most fraught political times in american history. i'm just -- i just -- >> it doesn't make sense. >> i don't understand it. i don't understand how we -- and by we, i'm talking about conservatives -- how did we get here? >> i mean, the first thing you have to say about it is flying

a -- when a flag is being flown upside down, it is an associate justice of the supreme court's house, that is bad. that's bad. >> yes. >> there is no way to look at that -- >> horrid, look at that! >> yeah. >> to me, it's like burning a flag. it is horrible. you don't do it. >> yeah, that should -- >> no. >> -- not happen, period. now, look, justice alito says he asked her to take it down. she refused to take it down. we don't know the dynamics in the marriage. we don't know how all of that works. but we can say about, you know, two adult women, mrs. ginni thomas, they have the most benign explanation for their conduct. they put their supreme court justice husbands in this terrible bind, in this terrible bind. their wife's political activism or local neighborhood anger is leading to situations where ordinary, average people would look at that upside down flag

being flown outside a supreme court justice's house, at the same time, by the way, i saw upside down flags being flown outside maga houses, on trump trucks at the same time, and then just say, trust us, there is nothing to see here. this is all her. that's a terrible position to put the public in. the public wants to be in a position where it doesn't have to overcome things like, oh, flying a flag that, at that very moment, was an insurrectioary symbol outside your house, and say, trust me, this was just my spouse. >> what? >> adults need to start acting like adults, joe. they need to start acting like adults. >> yeah. >> stop acting like their neighborhood disputes or whatever are justification for outrageous behavior. and don't make the public -- don't put the public in the position of, well, we have to decide, is justice alito with his wife on this, or is this a

breach in the marriage? it's a terrible position to put the public in. it never should have come to a head. >> absolutely. "new york times" opinion columnist david french, thank you very much. in terms of donald trump's criminal trial, we cannot predict what the jury will do. if donald trump is indeed found guilty, the question is, what happens next? that is the question posed and answered by our next guest. senior political reporter at "rolling stone" joins us now. you write about how trump and his allies plan to respond if he is re-elected, but what about a conviction? start us off there, asawin. what does that look like? >> sure. well, it's not only if he is convicted. it is if he is convicted in, say, a jurisdiction like manhattan or in a state.

obviously, a criminal trial is pending in georgia. it is almost certainly not going to happen before the election year is over, but, in theory, it could start in 2025. so just to back it up for a moment, if donald trump is re-elected at the end of this year, he and his government in waiting have a sprawling plan for using the justice department to shut down criminal investigations that have been going on a federal level. so the two jack smith probes, if he is re-elected, kiss good-bye to them. a problem for donald trump is that criminal investigations going into him on a state level, he can't just pardon or use the doj in that situation to shut his way out of it. so what he has needed is a plan. an idealogical maga blueprint for how to wield the federal government to help him get out of that bind. so in our reporting at "rolling

stone," what we found is in recent months, he's been calling around to closely aligned lawmakers on capitol hill, republican attorneys and other close associates and powerful republicans, to try to figure out what laws could potentially be passed if he has an opportunity to sign them again in 2025 or after. different ideas have been kicked around. first and foremost, perhaps, is this idea that he is now closely gravitated towards, which is, okay, we need to have the house and the senate pass a law that makes it an option for former vice presidents or former presidents, wink-wink, donald trump, of the united states to have their civil cases moved from certain jurisdictions automatically to federal court. now, the reason that kind of technicality or protocol would be important for a potential

second trump administration is it would give the trump doj the very thoroughly maga-fied opportunity to shut that down. obviously, they cannot do it now in manhattan, in georgia, and in other places like that. so this is -- >> so, basically, what you're saying -- >> -- par for the course. >> -- is he would not -- you would not have state d.a.s, state prosecutors being able to bring criminal charges against former presidents. is that what he's trying to do? >> well, you would be able to bring cases, but then it would give a former president, when they no longer have the significant immunity and protections of the oval office, once they're out of office, having the option to move those investigations, those trials, i should say, to federal court. so trump is currently a former president, so he obviously does not have those protections in

places like georgia. but if he ever becomes president again and if this law were passed and he signed it, he could move something like the georgia probe to a federal court and then, theoretically, have it shut down. it is a little convoluted, but it is a potential get out of jail free card in such a situation. >> yeah. it makes sense. you can shut down the federal cases and then you can actually consolidate the state cases and move them to the feds. i think there are constitutional challenges. thanks so much, asawin, for being with us. hope you come back very soon. anand, before i let you go, i wanted to follow up, your question about what authoritarians do or people who lean authoritarian as far as creating this environment, creating this narrative, i'm curious, different types of authoritarians, obviously, and there is a sliding scale. you have vladimir putin who is

very reprsive and not quite effective at it. he can get what he wants done, but it comes at a very heavy cost to himself politically, to his country, to his economy, to his military. but let's talk about modi, who is extraordinarily successful at doing this. explain. i mean, here's a man who is, most people believe, repressing muslims, damaging democracy in india, and, yet, he ispopular. >> that's exactly right. you have to distinguish between the electoral authoritarians and the non-electoral authoritarians, right? vladimir putin isn't worried about swing voters in provinces of russia. that's not a problem he has. but, you know, india under modi is still, as we are in the united states, an electoral system with voter suppression issues, et cetera, but it is still a voting country where authoritarians need to win the

vote. there was a fascinating episode of "the daily," "the new york times" podcast, a few weeks ago explaining modi's hold over india as they go through elections right now. it described him as a kind of cultural omnipresence, right? he has a call-in radio show. he's not always talking about politics on it. when students are in exam season at the end of the school year, he's just fielding phone calls from stressed out students who call him and are like, sir, can you give me advice about managing my exam stress? he's sharing tips from his life as a tea seller turned politician turned prime minister about how to do that. he is, of course, used those for authoritarian ends. he is turning india into more of a hindu monocultural state and authoritarian state. but he has done it by being in the culture. the indian center left opposition, the indian movement parallel to the democratic party that is interested in pluralism, india as a country for all

people, frankly, i don't know as someone who watches india who speaks for it. i can't remember a speech they've given in recent years. so we have a very similar problem. it's actually sometimes helpful to connect these dots because you get out of your silo. there is something in the modern media, social media environment that is favorable to authoritarians who understand that you have to help people see the world, right? and joe biden, but i would also say the opposition in india and many other places, don't understand their culture-making role. don't understand when people's kids are coming home saying, i'm learning new things about american history and that, you know -- a parent is destabilized a little bit. that's normal, right? if the authoritarian right is the only person explaining to you why american history is being taught in some new ways and, you know, the pro-democracy side is not explaining that in a different frame, they're just

talking about policies, infrastructure, whatever else, they're missing a lot of what's actually going on in our politics. >> political analyst and publisher of the newsletter "the ink," anand giridharadas, thank you for being on the show this morning. we appreciate your insights. still ahead on "morning joe," new york governor kathy hochul joins us next to explain her push to keep kids safe online. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

a gloomy sky over new york city at 7:35 in the morning. the clouds are going to pass, though.kathy hochul is working to get bills through the legislature before it ends next week. it'd install instructions on social media economies when it comes to addictive features and collecting data on young people. governor hochul joinings us in studio. she's a member of president biden's re-election campaign advisory see you this morning. >> thank you. >> we've been having a robust conversation as the parent of teenagers over this legislation. why is this a priority for your administration? >> over a year ago, i went on a listening tour around the state of new york.

the boroughs of new york city, sitting with students in classrooms and community centers, and i have seen firsthand, not just from family members and nieces and feoff you nephews, but the addiction going on. our kids are being pulled into a place that is often very dark. we have to get them out of it. addictive algorithms are bombarding our children with messages, not inviting them in, they're bombarding them, they cannot turn it off. i'm saying, leave our kids alone. let them socialize. they can talk to their friends but stop doing this. stop selling our kids' personal data for your personal financial gain. also, parents should be able to turn it off at midnight. let the kids get some rest until 6:00 a.m. otherwise, they're going to this place all night long, and they're exhausted.

as new york state's first mom governor, this is something i know a lot about. i felt personally that this was important to take this on, despite the opposition, on behalf of all parents. >> yeah, i was telling you that our kids have to put their phones in the kitchen before they go to bed because you're exactly right. their friends, many are up all night, going into school exhausted and sort of bleary-eyed because they've been on their phones. what specifically -- let's start with this safe act. stop addictive feeds exploitation for kids act, what specifically would that do if it makes it through the legislature? >> it outlaws these unwelcome algorithms. algorithms are formulas, that's fine. the ones that are intentionally addictive, they know exactly the ones. i'll give scary examples. a lot of young people are finding they're depressed now. the number of young people, particularly girls who are contemplating suicide is one out of three. that's a fairly new development. our kids are in a dark place.

they're feeling depressed, anxious. if a young person puts the word "suicide" out there, they might be looking for help. what can i do to not be contemplating suicide? what help is out there? they'll bombard them with how to commit suicide. think about that. you're not getting help. you have messages on how you can commit suicide. this is the trap they're in. we're telling social media companies, you are not allowed to bombard young people with these addictive algorithms. let them socialize. let them do some of their clubs online. i know what they're doing. but it does not have to be for your own profit and motive to get them hooked so they can't put that device down. also, we're saying, parental controls. let parents be able to turn it off from midnight to 6:00 a.m. those are the dark hours. that's when they need their rest. they're not functioning well. they're not building up the

resiliency that you need to be able to deal with life's stresses because that comes from a good night's rest. they don't have a way to escape. i'll never forget the young woman i met a few weeks ago. she said, you have to save us from ourselves. i thought that was a cry for help. because one person can't put it down because they're cut out of everything out all their friends are doing, and it is too much of a pull. the peer pressure is too great. so we're telling the companies, you also cannot be selling and collecting and selling personal information from our young people. there have to be controls. people say, how are you going to verify age? it's too hard. you can't gamble online if you're underage. there are ways that companies know how to identify who is of age and who isn't. all this opposition, i guarantee, they can figure it out. we're not giving up on this fight. >> mike, of course, we talked a lot about national efforts and measures like these in the united states congress.

you have a bipartisan effort to protect kids, to protect young girls, specifically. because, as jonathan height wrote in his book, we run an experiment on his kids the last 15 years and the results are in. they've become more depressed, angst, suicidal ideation because they're locked in this universe on their phones. >> they spend more time with their phones than their parents. but one of the underlying factors here, governor, and perhaps you can speak to it in touring the state and talking to various pupils and teachers and parents, the pandemic years. >> yes. >> 2020 to 2022. depending on your age, whether you were 12 or 14 when the pandemic began, you virtually spend a couple of years living in isolation, lacking socialization, lacking the ability to meet and establish stronger friendships with your

peer groups, with fellow students, your friends, your former friends, stuff like that. what impact do you think that has had on what we're dealing with now? >> it was devastating. just gather a couple young people together and say the word pandemic, you can see in their faces that this is something that was traumatic for them. that isolation, especially think of a young person going from middle school into high school. this is when you're supposed to make your friends and socialize and go into clubs and, you know, emerge into the early signs of the adult you'll become. they lost all of that. the only connection they had was their device. it was lonely. they told me that. i mean, some of these young women, i had a meeting with them in brooklyn, "we don't know how to interact with each other any more." they say this to me. "because we had two years of just communicating on our

devices." the other challenges, not just the effects, but that was the rise of the algorithms at the same time. they fed off each other. and the other thing is, and i've started talking about this, i'm going to go around the state and have more conversations, why are young people on their devices all day long during school hours? how are they learning? how are they multitasking in a way they're checking out what everybody is going to be doing this weekend, scrolling, seeing different feeds, and listening to their geometry class? that was hard enough class for me paying attention. this is what's going on now. but schools, you know, individual schools are making decisions. the majority are allowing it. i understand the fear a parent has when they send their child off to school. you don't need another school shooting, mass shooting, and have that fear of your most precious person in your whole life, something could happen to them. i'm okay with you have a flip phone. your child wants to talk to you or you need a connection.

they say, pick me up at 3:00. text them a message, but you don't have to be in the world of social media throughout the day. let's talk about that for new york. i want to have conversations first, but i think talking to the parents i have already, this is something they would welcome. they want their kids to be kids again. not be held captive to this force. just be a kid again. >> there are ways to put them away at the beginning of the school day. there are ways that they do that at concerts and all those things. >> of course there are. >> before i let you go, i do want to ask about the issue of crime in new york, how it's going so far this year. we're almost five months into a new year. obviously, there have been concerns about what's happening on the subway. violent crime is down for the most part this year. how are you looking at any progress that's been made? because it is still top of mind as you know among new yorkers? >> it sure is, will leigh. it is so important to make sure that people are safe and feel safe on our subways. the last time i was here in

march was when we announced we were sending the national guard into the subway. controversial for some. not for me. i needed to work with mayor eric adams, who was increasing the number of nypd patrolling. i said, i can help you. i have national guard. i have state police. i can send transit. let's have a show of force. not to be intimidating but to say to people, if something goes wrong, there's help right here. and the physical presence since we did that a few months ago, i'll tell you, the numbers were heading up in january. we are now down 35% in violent crimes on the subway. and we're back to pre-pandemic levels. we're not done, still focused on it, but we turned the tide and things are getting better. >> let's hope it continues in that direction. we will be keeping close tabs on your social media legislation, as well. perhaps as early as next week. >> that's right. >> governor hochul, thanks for

your time. >> thank you. up next, our conversation with emmy nominated director and producer judd apatow about his new project, and why he was scolded by the documentary subject's mother. we'll explain when we come right back. new centrum menopause supplements help unpause life when symptoms pause it.

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>> that's not dan, but it is dan, but it's even more confusing because his name is dan. ♪♪ >> it's such an act of faith in the future. you want to be together for the rest of your life. >> i never shot enough. >> you have all of this back in the house. [ bleep ], and we want to beat you to death to get rid of it. >> i always say it's not hoarding if all your [ bleep ] is awesome. >> words to live by. that's a look at the new documentary "flipside," a film this follows the life of a documentary maker as he shares snippets of various products he started and then abandoned before they were finished including documentaries about this american life host, a jazz photographer herman leonard, and even a record store. join us now.

"flipside's" executive producer, judd apatow, and also the director, producer, and writer of the film, chris wiltcha. this is such a fascinating piece of work, chris. i think some people maybe watched that trailer and said, what am i looking at here? what is a this about? how do you explain the project? >> well, you know, the simplest explanation, it's about creative failure. it's about reflection on midlife, all the things you thought you were going to do in your life, and then assessing what you managed to accomplish or not accomplish. it's kind of a look back, but also trying to make sense of the things you've done and abandoned, and to try to see if there's -- if you can make something of these abandoned projects. that was kind of the idea. >> so chris, let's talk about how you kind of assembled all this.

was it sitting around the garage? was it on a high shelf in your closet at home? what drove you to want to put it all together? >> it was probably mid-pandemic when i like a lot of other people i think was going through old hard drives, drawers full of old tapes, dvds, and i was sifting through all this material that i had accumulated over years of my life as a, you know, documentary and commercial filmmaker and i felt like projects that i had abandoned or had fallen apart for various reasons still had life in it. i felt like there was still energy and ideas in this material, and i wanted to try to assemble it. so i got together with an editor and some friends, and we decided to make a run at seeing if we could put this together as a film and make sense of all of this disparate material. >> judd, where did you come into all of this? what did you see in this idea that you thought would be cool to work on? >> i was very excited to work on the documentary that wasn't about a cult or a serial killer.

it had never been done in the history of documentaries. >> there aren't many. >> i mean, i -- i am a big fan of chris' work. how i got involved with this, many years ago, i asked chris to do a documentary about the making of the film "funny people," the film i was working on, and he moved to los angeles to continue to make documentaries and his mother has hated me for the last 15 years because she thinks i ruined his life. so i felt the need to support chris in this, but it's a really interesting hard to categorize documentary because it's about art and the price you pay to commit to it and trying to balance your family. it's a lot about hoarding and trying to hold onto the past. it's a really beautiful, beautiful movie. >> actually we have a moment from the film where judd actually gets a talking to from chris' mom, pat. let's take a look. >> my mom was crushed when we moved west, and there was only

one person she blamed, judd apatow. >> pat. >> yes. >> there you are. oh, it's inside your body. the ipad was inside your body. chris tells me that i somehow led him to california and separated your whole family and maybe i'm a destructive force. >> yes. i believe it was you who made the phone call, and invited him to come to california, and tell people that judd apatow took our grandchildren away. this whole trauma in my life is your fault. >> i didn't even know i was paying him that well that he would leave the state. >> so you were my favorite person at the time, but you have so many movies and projects and i think of you constantly and i must say every time i think of you, i think of you as the dark man who took away my family. >> if i had a movie come on cable, do you, like, shut the tv?

>> well, i, you know, i like dramas. >> yes. i understand. let me tell you something. i will be guilty about this. like, you say it as kind of like a joke, but i'll actually think on this and i'll just be, like, i can't believe i ruined pat's life for a dvd extra. >> chris, it appears your mom is not yet over this after all these years. >> no. she's fully traumatized. we moved to l.a. to pursue this job with judd, and again, my children -- the good news is my daughter just got into college and she's coming back to new york. so she will be able to see my parents anew, but my mom to this day resents judd, like, no joke. there's humor in that clip, but her heart is broken. >> join the club. >> she was joking for a second, but then got real serious that when she sees your movies in the dropdown menu on tv -- >> we all prefer drama. we all prefer drama. >> i want to ask you about the

title, "flipside" because it's kind of central to the story. it's about a record shop, i believe, in your hometown not far from where i grew up. why is that the title and what's that part of the story in the film? >> well, flipside is the record store i worked at. it's in pompton lakes, new jersey. it's still there, and i would encourage everyone to go visit, but i think i was also trying to look at the flip side of, you know, your dreams, your aspirations, to look at your life and examine it from the front and it back and to try to decide, you know, is, you know, that you can have two contradictory experiences. there's things you can regret and look at your life and feel thankful and joyful. it was kind of looking at the flip side of things, but the record store is still there, and i encourage everyone to go out and make a pilgrimage because it is a vinyl-filled treasure trove. >> the fact that you -- now we're going real jersey. you have your uncle floyd as your narrator.

fantastic. that's jersey royalty. >> you remember him? >> of course. i'll give the last word to you on this, judd. bigger message about this film. what is it? >> go to the movie theater and see it in a theater. it's rare to get to see a great documentary in a theater. it's playing in new york at the ifc center and a bunch of theaters around the country and i think you'll enjoy it and i'm surprised i'm not a witness in the stormy daniels trial because she told us that she slept with trump in 2006 on the set. it's in our stormy daniels doc and i don't know why we're not there right now as witnesses. >> i think you've redeemed yourself in the eyes of chris' mom with this film, judd. congratulations, guys. the documentary is called "flipside" as judd said. it's in select theaters now. executive producer judd apatow. director, producer, writer, chris wilcha, congrats on the film. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." film we'll be right back with me or

"morning joe."

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hi, i'm janice, and i lost 172 pounds on golo. when i was a teenager i had some severe trauma in my life and i turned to food for comfort. a friend told me that i was the only one holding me back from being as beautiful on the outside as i am the inside. once i saw golo was working, i felt this rush, i just had to keep going. a lot of people think no pain no gain, but with golo it is so easy. when i look in the mirror, i don't even recognize myself. golo really works. then trump tell us he's the tt -- i love this one. he's the greatest president for black people in the history of america including more than abraham lincoln. [ boos ] i mean, can you fathom that?

where in the -- like i said, i think he injected too much of that bleach into his skin. i think it affected his brain. >> president biden trying another contrast on the campaign trail. this time in philadelphia where he and the vice president made a pitch to black voters. we're going to have much more from their campaign stop in just a moment. meanwhile, the former president was rage posting from the courthouse holding room while a jury deliberated his fate in the criminal hush money case against him. we'll bring you expert legal analysis ahead of the jury reconvening later this morning. plus, we'll go through a possible major shift in policy on the war in ukraine as the biden administration now appears open to allowing u.s.-made weapons to be used in strikes in russian territory. >> willie, i'm just looking at this now, and i mean, after all

of this, they've dropped the charges. i mean -- >> breaking news. >> i mean there was so much stuff. >> can you believe that? >> you would think after, like, all this coverage and, like, it really seemed -- >> they dropped the charges. they just dropped the charges. >> they were serious, and it's -- yeah. i mean, willie, i can't explain it. >> i can't explain it, charges dropped. >> you just drop the charges on the number one golfer in the world? >> beautiful delivery. nice setup. scottie scheffler -- >> you knew exactly where i was going. that makes you you. >> we sort of saw this coming yesterday. we talked about it. louisville, kentucky officials have dropped all charges against world number one golfer scottie scheffler. the hearing yesterday, the jefferson county attorney said prosecutors will not pursue the cause, and asked for the charges

to be dismissed. scheffler's characterization that this was all a big misunderstanding was corroborated. ahead of the pga championship after he went out after having spent time in a jail cell, he shot a 66, and people looked at the video and said it was probably a mistake by him, and the cops' original characterization of what happened, and the charges as you said, have been dropped against the world number one. >> there you go. >> i mean, the video evidence shows that what the police officer said wasn't true. >> a weird morning that day. >> by the end there, he said, he tore my pants. i don't know how he tore his pants until he came up knocking on his windows -- >> hung his pants on the car. >> there's no dragging in this entire process. >> what a weird scene. >> and why -- i don't know why he would lie about it. >> right. >> i don't know why they amped

this up the way they did, but they did, and my gosh. we always support police officers whenever, you know, police officers should be supported. so -- >> this was weird and the charges are now dropped. let's get to the news and also who we have with us along with joe, willie and me, we have the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton, nbc news national affairs analyst, john heilemann. he's a partner and chief political columnist at puck, and from politico, sam stein is with us this morning, and thank you for doing "way too early" for us. amid reports of hand-wringing from democrats about president joe biden's re-election chances, "the new york times" is out with a new piece this morning entitled perhaps lost in the polling, the race for president is still close. in it, chief political analyst nate cohn writes that november's

election will likely come down to just three states, michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania. where have we heard that before, joe? as cohn points out, biden could lose every other swing state, but if he wins those three, he will most likely win a second term, and for what they are worth, most polls show biden right in the mix in the rust belt. that includes "the times'" own recent poll from siena college that sparked panic this month. that shows biden even slightly better than his 2020 numbers with those two groups that traditionally lean republican. white voters and voters over 65, as cohn puts it, quote, biden has already done what would ordinarily be the hard part. the polls are not perfect. they have been off before, and they'll be off again. they wouldn't really need to be off target by much at all for

mr. biden to squeak out a victory, but even if the polls were exactly right in the sense that mr. trump would win if the election were held tomorrow by precise margins implied by the recent polls, mr. biden would still have a very real chance to win in november. so you've talked a lot about this, but you've also lived it watching elections closely by experience, and it's sort of what you have been saying although i'm all okay with the panic if you apply work to it. >> right. >> if panic inspires you to work hard, go for it. >> right. we have been over the past several weeks that democrats have been freaking out. you know, i -- i just say, in 2016, people freaked out when we said that donald trump could win. in 2020, i've even dared to say how likely i think it is that joe -- or in 2024, how likely i think it is that joe biden will win because i know everybody

will freak out and say i've got my head in the sand. you look at the numbers. you look at what biden's sitting at right now. you look at the fact that he's had a low watermark. you look at the fact that the two areas he should be having a problem with, white voters and men, older men, he's actually -- older americans, he's actually doing very well, and my feeling has always been the same as what nate cohn said. he's already done the hard part, right? he's already done the hard part. i always say in politics -- in politics, conversion is the hardest thing to do. what joe biden has to do now as cohn says in this article, is he needs to bring his base home. black voters, hispanic voters, young voters. much easier to say, come home. it's going to be okay. stay with me here. we're facing a real and imminent

danger. much easier to say come home, than, hey. go to that house that you have never been in before. conversion is hard, and politics, this is my crest and colgate thing. i've told people this since i was 30. if the family has been a crest family their entire life, they're not going to switch to colgate. that's 1980s, 1990s toothpaste war, but it's like marketing. biden has to bring them home, and you look at these three states. they are very close. they are very tight, and what i always talked about is blocking and tackling. they are light years ahead right now. light years ahead, the biden team is, of organizing on the ground. is this a pep rally for joe biden? no, it's not. i just -- just like it wasn't a pep rally for trump in '16 when people said, he can't win. yeah, he can. he can get 270. we were mocked and ridiculed and abused because we predicted the

hurricane was coming in september and october. i'm here to tell you the freaking out, the democratic freaking out is just so tiring, and i think the thing that bothers me the most is they're freaking out about things in the national campaign, right? they're freaking out whether it's about this obsession with the national race, in the national polling, whether it's truth social tweets, whether it's all the crazy things and confused things donald trump says at rallies. that's fine, but this race is not going to be won in the courthouse in manhattan. regardless of the outcome of the case, it's going to be won by knocking on doors in kenosha, by planting yard signs in the suburbs of detroit, by making sure you've got the philly suburbs locked down, and you get

the margin you get by making phone calls, knocking -- i'm sorry to go so far into this, but again, the stupidity that i have been listening to over the past several months about how this race is over and, you know, democrats are freaking out, and trumpers are so overconfident. john heilemann, it's just absolutely insane. it reminds me when i ran the first time, i would drive past state fairs and see my opponents and they would be waving at people at state fairs and i would just drive by laughing and then i would go to a neighborhood where i knew there were -- what i called supervoters who voted every two years, and while they were waving at tens of thousands of people, i was knocking on doors, shaking hands, planting yard signs. it's how i won. i didn't have money. nobody knew who i was, but it was targeted.

this political race this year is targeted. it's basically about seven, eight, nine congressional campaigns in wisconsin, in michigan, in pennsylvania, and i thought the nate cohn article yesterday explained this better than any i've seen, and explained why biden, man, biden's got as good a chance as he had in 2020, right now. >> well, good morning, joe, and i will say the last time we were talking about "the new york times" on the air, you and i were having a healthy, spirited exchange, and, you know, you were pretty angry, annoyed, irritated at that last wave of siena battleground state polling and i guess, you know, someone at the "new york times" may have been listening. this seemed like a useful

corrective on that front, and this piece acknowledging without getting into kind of debate over the methodology of those swing state polls, noting the evident truth which is, you know, it's a narrow path. i mean, i don't think there are very many democrats who would not like to win -- they would like to rather win this race with more than exactly 270 electoral votes and yet, to your point, you know, this has always been the challenge for biden. those three states, the blue wall, if the blue wall stays intact, and it's your point another way to think about that coming home is, if joe biden can do in 2024 exactly what he did in 2020, he'll win those three states. he'll get 270 electoral votes, and he'll be re-elected. as i said, i think, you know, a lot of democrats would like to have some margin to play with. i continue to say that even in those other states, nevada, arizona, georgia, north carolina, it's still a margin of error race in those states, and i'm going to keep saying that until it's not a margin of error

race, and, you know, it's your point. about 800,000 voters across those three states, michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania. 800,000 voters out of 350 million people in america, and those 800,000 voters unlike joe scarborough, the biden campaign does have money. the biden campaign doesn't have to bring those people home on the basis of just joe biden's charm. they have -- they have more money than the trump campaign. they hav more resources on the ground in those three states and they have more experience having done it four years ago about getting those people to come out, and they have other things like this trial which, you know, on the margin, what do they need to do to get those people to come home, remind people of what it was like when donald trump was president four years ago, and remind people of who donald trump is. i think the trial is, if there's a conviction helps in that effort. they have a lot of clubs in their bag here, and again, the path -- 270 is not a comfortable

path to walk. that's a tight rope to walk. >> right. >> it's a rope that they have walked before. >> well, i'm with you. i'm not saying he can't win the sun belt states. i think people like you -- >> i know. >> -- they're suggesting the sun belt states are gone, and they obviously haven't followed presidential elections in nevada over the past half century, and haven't seen what's been happening in arizona over the past four to six years. so, you know, those races are still in play, and i think mainly if i were to criticize the robert de niro front, i think i would say, willie, again, just explaining what type of race this is, i wouldn't send him down to the courthouse in southern manhattan. i would send them to kenosha, and i would say, go into a living room of a union worker. just sit down and talk to him. have the kid film it. put it up on tiktok.

put it up on youtube, like, and get in people's homes in kenosha. get in people's homes in bucks county, pennsylvania. get in people's homes where this race is going to be won or lost, and let people see. you were fighting hard for every one of their votes because that's how the next president will be elected. >> and there are plans to do just that, and speaking of one of those battle grounds, in pennsylvania yesterday, president biden was there with vice president kamala harris rallying in philadelphia. the event was the launch of the campaign's planned outreach, speaking to black voters. >> because black americans voted, kamala and i are president and vice president of the united states because of you. that's not hyperbole. because of you, donald trump is defeated former president. with your vote -- [ applause ] with your vote in 2024, we're

going to make donald trump a loser again. [ cheers and applause ] maya angelou said, when someone shows you who they are -- >> all: believe them. >> believe them the first time. you got it, kid. you got it. i've shown you who i am, and trump has shown you who he is, and today donald trump is pandering and peddling lies and stereotypes for your votes so he can win for himself, not for you. well, donald trump, i have a message for you. not in our house, and not on our watch. and folks, the threat that trump poses is greater in the second term than his first. it's clear that when he lost in 2020, something literally snapped many this guy. no, i'm serious. that's why january 6th happened, when he unleashed an insurrection. now he's running again, and he's

clearly unhinged. he calls insurrectionists who stormed the capitol patriots. patriots. if re-elected, he wants to pardon, quote, every one of them. let me ask you. what do you think he would have done on january 6th if black americans had stormed it? think about this. what do you think would have happened if black americans had stormed the capitol? i don't think he would be talking about pardons. >> if he wins a second term, i promise you he's going to go even further. so all of this is to say, who sits in the white house matters. [ applause ] it matters. for -- it matters for the people of america and people around the world. >> so rev, this was the beginning really of a concerted effort by the biden/harris

campaign to reach out to black voters. this was gerard, a school that's predominantly black, and they were talking about faith centers and churches and places that you spend a lot of your time. what do they need to do to do what joe's talking about which is just to bring the democratic base back home and convince them that they deserve another term? >> they need to keep doing what they're doing now, and even more so, you know, they've done conferences, the president spoke about it on the network convention viral, and he engaged all of us. they've gone to some churches. so as a vice president, but i also think that they need to show the contrast. when you have on one side, president joe biden standing there as he did yesterday at gerard with the vice president who was a u.s. senator and was the attorney general of the state of california, contrast that with trump who went to the bronx for black and brown voters

with two rappers under indictment, which black america do you want to project they ought to say to voters? we stood and did the george floyd justice and policing executive order when we couldn't get republicans to make it law. he stood and supported saying we don't want to have the police have any kind of reform in any way. donald trump did. donald trump was for qualiied immunity which was in the george floyd bill. so when you contrast what each stands for, then when you have a man saying that i have been the best president for black americans since abe lincoln, it's to call us stupid. he's really insulting our intelligence. you have been better than fdr, than john kennedy, than lyndon johnson in the great society, than barack obama? you can argue what you want to argue about what you think you did, but to say you're better

than them means you think we're moronic, and if they keep contrasting who they are, and who trump is, and showing what they have done -- they have erected unemployment among blacks and lower than it's been in two generations. we've seen them deliver in terms of the infrastructure. we've seen them in terms of inflation reduction, how it has disproportionately helped blacks. they have a record, hbcu money, and show your contrast, and show who you're running against, and we were joe. show that this is home. donald trump has never been home for us. he's not even been in the neighborhood less known the house. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll break down what happened in court yesterday during the first day of jury deliberation in donald trump's criminal hush money trial. "morning joe" is coming right back. ney trial. "morning joe" is coming right back

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manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. try it for free at freestylelibre.us when migraine strikes are the tradeoffs of treating worth it? ubrelvy is another option, it quickly eliminates migraine pain. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. allergic reactions to ubrelvy can happen. most common side effects were nausea and sleepiness. ask about ubrelvy. the jury in the donald trump hush money criminal trial will resume deliberations this morning. yesterday, the jurors sent two notes back to the judge. the first asked to review portions of testimony from former "national enquirer" publisher david pecker and from former trump attorney and fixer michael cohen. the second note was for the jury instructions to be read to them again. let's bring in former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. she was in the courtroom yesterday afternoon. good morning, lisa.

another day of deliberation today. i guess about 4 1/2 hours of it yesterday for this jury. what do you read into the two notes that were sent back, the substance of them? what do you think the jury was trying to get at here? >> i think the jury is trying to understand the formation of the conspiracy and donald trump's participation in it, and is taking very seriously the instructions of josh steinglass who said repeatedly to them that david pecker's testimony was critical and they should look back at it. for example, willie, at the end of his summation, he was trying to look at donald trump's direct involvement, and one of the things that he said, is david pecker testified that donald trump personally called him to discuss the mcdougal matter and he said he had spoken to michael and michael had told him about karen, so that's corroboration that mr. cohen is keeping mr. trump informed at every step. they went on to discuss that as

pecker and trump went on to discuss whether the defendant should buy the story. now they got an instruction yesterday on something called access liability -- i'm sorry accomplice liability, and that means that michael cohen's word alone isn't enough to convict trump because michael cohen is trump's accomplice. they have to assure themselves there is enough corroborating evidence that trump can be convicted. where do you get that? you get that from david pecker who is one of the only people here other than michael cohen who says, i spoke directly to trump about the conspiracy, and he affirmed to me that he knew what was going on and he wanted to be involved with it. >> some of it goes back to that first meeting of august of 2015. they want to understand that relationship and how close donald trump was to it. i want to get some clarification from you about the jury instructions. donald trump some of his minions going on cable network suggesting that the judge told the jury that they don't have to

be unanimous. that's not true. can you explain what this little dispute may be about? >> that's not true at all. first of all, they have to be unanimous that the business records here were hat was charged. with respect to what makes falsification of business records a felony, they also have to be unanimous that trump intended to conceal a conspiracy to promote his own election in 2016, and they have to be unanimous that he did so or that the conspiracy was through unlawful means. here's the part where they can have differences of opinion. what are those unlawful means? josh steinglass gave them five or six different option that is fall into three different cat -- categories. one is the campaign act. the other is falsification of business records through the bank which they opened the account to pay stormy daniels.

the third are the tax forms that the trump organization prepared when they were showing michael cohen's, quote, unquote, income, that $420,000 that was really the reimbursement to him. you, willie, you rev, me, lisa, we can all have different opinions on what those unlawful means are, but we have to agree there was a conspiracy and it was executed by unlawful means. donald trump is playing fast and loose here with the concept of unanimity. >> isn't that the judge saying that, and breaking that down, isn't that a major blow to the defendant because what the defense would have needed is for him to have said, you need a unanimous of one of the three or four or all of them, and when he broke down that you don't have to agree on the elements as long as you all agree on one of the elements, even if they differ, isn't that an easier mark for

the prosecution to reach, and harder for the defense to argue against? >> yeah. it's easier for the prosecution in the sense that everybody can have a different take on what the unlawful means are, but i want to be really clear. to the extent that the unlawful means is an element of the conspiracy, everybody has to agree that there were unlawful means and more importantly, you don't have to prove that the conspiracy succeeded. you just have to prove that in falsifying business records, donald trump had an intent to conceal the conspiracy that was formed between and among him, michael cohen, david pecker, and a host of other people who were sort of bit participants in that drama. coming up, secretary of state antony blinken signals the united states may lift restrictions on how ukraine uses american-made weapons against russia. how that potential policy change could impact the ongoing war. "morning joe" is coming right back. ongoing war

"morning joe" is coming right back

the israeli military says it has seized control of a border that separates gaza and egypt. the idf says it found about 20 hamas tunnels and gaining control of the boundary will cut off the terrorists' access to supplies. the move however, could complicate israel's relationship with egypt as the corridor is considered a key buffer zone. israel meanwhile is signaling the war in gaza could continue through at least the end of the year. the country's national security adviser made the comment yesterday saying he expects to see another seven months of combat in order to, quote, shore up our achievement. u.s. secretary of state antony blinken was asked about that while in moldova and expressed his frustration with israel's lack of a post-war plan. >> it has to ask whether, and especially in the absence of a

plan for the day after in gaza, further incremental gains against hamas, but gains that may not be durable in terms of hamas' defeat in the absence of a plan how that stacks up against some of the, again, unintended, but horrific consequences of military action in a place where the people you're going after are so closely embedded with civilians. >> secretary blinken also spoke about the war in ukraine, and suggested the biden administration could be open to tolerating strikes by the ukrainian military inside russia using american-made weapons. >> we're committed to ukraine succeeding as a country. we're committed to ukraine

winning the war and i think we've shown that through the support we've provided and many other countries have provided. we haven't encouraged or enabled strikes outside of ukraine, but ukraine as i said before, has to make its own decisions about the west way to effectively defend itself. we're going to make sure that it has the equipment it needs to do that, and every step along the way we've adapted and adjusted as necessary, and so that's exactly what we'll do going forward. we're always listening. we're always learning, and we're always making determinations about what's necessary to make sure that ukraine can effectively continue to defend itself, and will continue to do that. >> let's bring in former reporter for the "wall street journal", matthew brzezinski. first of all, i would love your reaction to what antony blinken has been saying, and obviously a follow-up on what zelensky is pleading from not only americans, but also other nato

allies. >> well, if i were a betting man, i would wager that american-made missiles will be hitting russian military installations within russian territory probably within the month. we've already seen that the british and the french have said the ukrainians can use their missiles to hit russian territory because, you know, the russians are basically hiding behind their border. they have their missile batteries, their artillery batteries just inside of russia, and they're hitting ukrainian targets, and the ukrainians can't hit them back with western weapons. well, that's about to change, and i think the war is going to escalate considerably because of this. >> and also obviously the russians are on the front foot right now leaning forward because they don't have to worry about attacks behind their

lines. so this really does change the entire equation, right? they can't keep pushing as aggressively toward kyiv if they have to worry about their rear flank. >> absolutely, yes. you know, this has been -- this has been a boon, this for the russians that the ukrainians have had one hand tied behind their back, and to actually hit the russians, they have had to use mostly, you know, homemade drones. now with sophisticated western weaponry, they're going to go after very high-value targets, things that are extremely expensive to replace, and this is going to change certainly the financial dynamic of the war, and this may be one of the reasons why we've seen what many are calling a purge within the russian military in the last month because putin is getting quite worried about his finances. >> yeah.

so it's very interesting, matthew, over the last week, we have been in our discussions over the phone, you have been telling me about putin's purge, the purge that was coming, why he was doing it, and then of course, we've since seen reporting from british papers, "the new york times" followed up with it the past couple of days as well, but you were -- you're telling me about it last week and explained why. can you explain to those watching why vladimir putin has begun this purge? >> yeah. i mean, it's -- i'm not even sure we can call it a purge. i think he is sending a message to the entire military industrial complex in russia that the system of sanctioned corruption which is a pillar of his regime is no longer a luxury that he can afford. coming up, one of our next

guests won the nobel peace prize in her push to protect the freedom of the press. we'll talk to maria ressa about the dangers posed and the threat of it here at home. "morning joe" is back in a moment. it here at home "morning joe" is back in a moment you've been waiting for. now there's an easier-to-use at home skin tag remover, clinically proven to remove skin tags safely in as little as one treatment.

coming up, filmmaker ken burns has spent his career looking back at history, but today he's focused on the future with a stark warning about america's direction. he joins us with his powerful message this month to students at brandeis university. that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." >> there is no real choice this november. there is only the perpetuation, however flawed and feeble you might perceive it of our fragile, 249-year-old experiment or the entropy that will engulf

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tried to see the identity and the apps of american ownerships. you have to come up with a substitute, either to restore the virginity of the source, or i will tax you to death. >> wow. that was former philippine president rodrigo dutarte vowing in 2017 to go after one of the country's largest media companies for its reporting on the murders he was ordering against his own people. in 2019, dutarte made good on his promise arresting the cofounder inside the company's

office in front of her team. despite this, she continued to speak out about the atrocities taking place in the philippines and would be awarded the nobel peace prize in 2021 for, quote, her efforts to safeguard freedom of expression, and maria ressa joins us now. tonight she is being honored again at the annual vital voices global leadership awards ceremony taking place at the kennedy center in washington, d.c., and thank you so much for being on the show this morning. congratulations on receiving this award, this honor. what does it mean to you, maria? >> i mean, the name says it, you know, vital voices. i think now more than voices. i think now more than ever, we need to make sure vital voices are heard. women are at the forefront. journalists are the first under attack. we need to keep going.

>> talk about the journalists right now who are in hot spots around the world putting their lives on the line and how important that is to all people, especially burgeoning democracies or just democracies? >> what we are forced to face is that in order to do our jobs in many countries around the world, including the united states, you're forced to be okay with sacrificing things. for me, i had to be okay with going to jail for the rest of my life to keep doing our jobs. i have some good news. we have seen the attacks on journalists increase as the quality of democracy decreases. in the philippines you heard my former president duterte's

attacks on the press have been unprecedented. i came out from being arrested, 11 criminal charges against me. now, after eight years i'm down to two. i still have to ask my supreme court for approval to travel. here's the line i always use. we were in hell, now we're in purgatory. it can get better, and it must keep going. >> this is determination at its best with you. if you look at the threats that journalists face around the world, the ones you're still dealing with right now, we can add a new layer to it. how do you think ai is impacting journalists and in some ways making the job harder? >> i marvel at how it has fallen. i would say it's in a worse

place than we were under duterte because of the fracture lines of society. ai has been around for 70 years. artificial intelligence is actually a marketing term that was used for the technology. what it has done is to hide the surveillance economy, our data for profits, the cloning of our individualism and to hide that underneath the will to make more money. this is something that as americans go to the polls, you've got to be aware of. social media and generative ai is off the scale. you have to fight for agency. >> i also want to ask you about the american elections happening this november and how you think

the fact that democracy is at stake here in the united states, how that impacts countries around the world struggling with authoritarianism? >> in the nobel lecture, i talked about how an atom bomb exploded in our ecosystem. half the world is voting, and yet the kinds of safety measures for every individual that is voting is almost nonexistent, worse than it was in 2020. june, the eu walks into its elections. yesterday south africa had its elections. when america has its elections in november, it will be the final tipping point. where america goes, the world will go. for american voters, you must

choose democracy over fascism. this is something i said in the harvard commencement speech last week. there are only two choices here. it's fascism or democracy. your choice will determine where the world will go. >> thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us and congratulations on the big honor you will receive tonight. up next, we're going to have a live report outside the manhattan courthouse as jury deliberations in trump's criminal hush-money trial is set to resume in just moments. keep it right here on "morning joe." orning joe.

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coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. mike barnicle still with us, that's a shock. and jen psaki joining us as well. good to have you both. in just about 30 minutes, the jury in the donald trump hush-money criminal trial will return to a new york city courthouse, where they will begin deliberating for a second straight day. jurors spent roughly 4 1/2 houred behind closhour hours behind closed doors yesterday. they want to hear the jury instructions again. yasmin vossoughian live from outside the courthouse in lower manhattan, what are we expecting in just a few minutes? i'm so curious about what exactly they wanted to hear

again. >> reporter: you mentioned 4 1/2 hours of deliberations. the bell rang once, the bell rang twice, four questions, an additional question as well, a lot of folks on edge out here as we waited to hear what they wanted to hear. there are about 35 pages or so from the transcript of the trial with regards to david pecker's testimony, three questions regarding his testimony, one recording michael cohen's testimony. it was testimony regarding an investor meeting he was in. he got a phone call from donald trump at the time asking him about the karen macdougall situation. what should i do? david pecker says, well, i should pay her off. donald trump says, i don't usually do that because the story usually gets out. another conversation, another part of the testimony in which

he talked about buying karen macdougall's story rights. michael cohen said the boss will make sure you get that money. that testimony will also be read back to the jurors when they resume this trial at 9:30 in the morning. the other two are this infamous meeting we have been talking about repeatedly over the last six weeks. it was a 2015 meeting in trump tower. it was david pecker, donald trump, michael cohen. they got together and decided to place damning stories in the ""national enquirer"" about other people who had run from office, often times women, would

emerge from the woodwork. those four parts of the testimony from david pecker will all be read back to the jury as court resumes at 9:30 this morning, about 35 pages or so. after that, mikamika, it's jury instructions. one thing i want to remind you that i think is really interesting, we're getting testimony of that trump tower meeting from michael cohen's perspective and david pecker's perspective. judge merchan, said take michael cohen's testimony, look at it in the grand scheme of things. do other witnesses and evidence

back up michael cohen's testimony? and you see here, which i think was so interesting that the jury was asking for that testimony from david pecker and also michael cohen. it's going to be a really big day. >> they'll be back in the courtroom deliberating around 11:00. potential for a verdict right now. thank you so much. yesterday in one of the largest campaign events of the season, president biden and vice president harris rallied in philadelphia. the event was the launch of the campaign's planned outreach to black voters. >> because black americans voted, kamala and i are president and vice president of

the united states. with your vote, in 2024, we're going to make donald trump a loser again. maya angelou said, when someone shows who you are, believe them the first time. you got it, kid. you got it. i'm showing you who i am and trump is showing you who he is. donald trump is pandering and peddling lies and stereotypes so he can win, for your votes, not for your. we have a message for you. not in our house and not on our watch. america's always been a place where we worked toward a more perfect union. i still believe that. i'm still optimistic, but i need you. my question for you is a simple one.

are you with me? [ cheers and applause ] >> talk to your families. >> four more years! four more years! >> joining us now, symone sanders townsend. great to have you with us. jen, i'll start with you about the event yesterday, the initiative to bring the base home. the president doing well in places you might not have expected with older voters, with white voters. so now it's a matter of bringing the base home, certainly in pennsylvania. >> if you look at the president's calendar, that's quite telling, because the most valuable thing on a campaign is

the candidate's time. they're spending his time showing up. they know they need to make up ground. what he has going for him is his record is significantly better. the challenge is how the trump campaign is running somewhat effectively is they're running on this campaign of economic nostalgia, going back to the time pre-covid and reminding people that was a time that felt better. that's true. it did feel better to most people. it's not an on the level argument, but it's working to some degree. they need to bring those voters home, show them there's a reason to go back and pull the lever for president biden again. >> that was a big enthusiastic

crowd yesterday. what work does the president and the vice president also need to do to earn back the trust and the votes there? >> i think they have to continue to do what jen just described in terms of showing up. the vice president has been on this economic opportunity tour. this tour is specifically tailored to speak to not just voters, but also black men specifically, black business owns, talking about what the administration has done for black small businesses and opportunity and access to capital. that's extremely important. we talk about the pandemic. black businesses were gutted by the pandemic. more than 50% of them shuttered. the opportunity for black businesses to build back under this administration has been phenomenal. they have to talk about that.

secondly, they have to talk about the unfinished work and what they would do if elected the next term. why are the numbers not resonating, folks who are supporting the president and vice president? and the reality is for people who are just trying to pay their bills, people who are renters, or people who are aspiring homeowners, it is extremely expensive to do those things right now. the biden/harris campaign has talked about attacking housing, particularly for renters and also for people who would like to purchase. there is an entire plan around credits to first-time home buyers. that's some of the unfinished work. that speaks directly at the heart of what people are dealing with every single day. they need to hear about those plans.

i think the student loan thing is important. people think joe biden has not done much on student loans. that's false. i know people who got their student loans forgiven last week. this is something that touches so many people. i'm not talking about college students. i'm talking about older millennials. the oldest millennials right now are 43. that student loan forgiveness is affecting them too, and they have to hear about it. >> jen, you've been asked this question a million times. >> uh-oh. go ahead. >> why is it that the biden administration and the president himself is now, according to some people, competing with donald trump for the black vote in the black communities in this country? how can that be the case when he has a lifelong record of positive movements for the black

community? >> it's also how he became the nominee in 2020. the campaign and pollsters will tell you a couple things. one is there's still this challenge that the biden campaign is facing that hasn't settled into everyone that trump is the other choice. there are still people who are not paying attention. that's why they're eager to get onto the debate stage. the other factor is what i just touched on earlier. things like housing costs, higher interest rates, who do they impact? they impact people who are lower income, who are living paycheck to paycheck. it impacts some of the demographic groups, young people, people of color that the

president is struggling with. i was on president obama's campaign back in 2012. the argument he was making is not i have solved every economic problem for you. it was, i am the better fighter for you than the other guy. that has to be the president's argument. they started to draw the contrast. they have to move on from accomplishments and getting credit for accomplishments and make it all about the contrast of what a biden or trump presidency would be. it's really about bringing people home to who they pulled the lever for before. >> bring them home. earlier this week we discussed the recent commitment address by award-winning filmmaker ken burns at brandeis university where he reflected on what's at stake in this year's

election. take a look. >> there is no real choice this november. there is only the perpetuation, however flawed and feeble you might perceive it of our fragile 249-year-old experiment or the entropy that will ungulf us. a deformed picture of the soul is revealed. the presumptive republican nominee is the opioid of all opioids, an easy cure for what some believe is the solution to our myriad pains and problems when, in fact, people end up reenslaved, a bigger problem, a bigger solution, james baldwin would say, the author and finisher of our national suicide, as mr. lincoln prof

profesized. we are at an existential crossroads in our political and civic lives. this is a choice that could not be clearer. >> wow. the emmy award winning filmmaker joins us now. he is this year's recipient of the national constitution center's liberty medal for illuminating the principles at the heart of the american idea. ken, great to have you on. i want to start right there with the american idea. everything you said jumped out at me. you said do not be seduced. i think that's so important in the age of the cult of trump. even more important, you used the word fragile.

i don't think people understand just how fragile our democracy is. can you explain how easily it can be unravelled? >> i think all you need to do is go back to where in 1932 you'd want to be where everything was great with ideas and politics and arts and architecture, in movies, in painting, in music, there would be no better place on the planet than berlin. and the next january, not so much. what we learned from the study of authoritarianism, what he learn from the study of despots is that these democratic institutions are fragile because the covenant of democracy is a new thing. we invented it. it said you're not going to be a subject, you're going to be a citizen. that requires some responsibilities. we're going to build

institutions where, just like driving down the road, we are going to trust people not to cross the line. there's no them. it's really not about joe biden and donald trump. it's really about this tendency of us to other and make it not an argument and a story. we've been so focused. it's like we're waiting for the train wreck of the trial. we used to have an airplane hangar where he was going to arrive and say some bad things. the only place where trickle down works is in media. if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, did it make a sound? joe biden has the third greatest legislative accomplishments in the last 100 years after fdr and

lbj, and people don't know about it because we've been more interested in the argument of guilty or not guilty or this outrage or that outrage. we've missed our responsibility to help. the other thing i would add too is that in the othering, everybody does it. we do it too. we need to reach out to trump voters. we need to listen to them. we don't need to other them over. their guy is doing that. we need to remind them that so many of the things that keep them at the level they're at, that paycheck to paycheck are there because of things barack obama and joe biden have done for them and not allow them to be completely seduced by the stories the despots always tell, that if we get rid of this problem or these people, that things will be better. i think it's on all of us to try to speak to each other in a way

and tell stories, not make arguments. >> let me try and respond to a lot of that. as it pertains to responsibility, i think there is a fine balance from covering the trial or looking at the consequences of a certain type of behavior or looking at anti-democratic behavior or looking at treasonous behavior or look at a crime being committed and admitted to by a former president, ignoring that is almost being a part of what i think fascists do, which is desensitize a population. i think it's a fine balance that nobody's perfect.

the accomplishments of biden are by every definition historic. that's a balance i think the media struggles with. but then there's the other issue of networks and websites that lie, that completely corrode the truth, that make it look like the biden presidency has ruined the economy and that's just where it begins. so i guess now let's talk about responsibility of the american citizenry. how do you explain that responsibility at a time like this when you need to look at history in order to understand what has happened and perhaps shape the future, but you have a firehose of lots of different things coming at you? >> that's the question. you framed it so beautifully and so articulately. i don't think we entirely know

the answer. we need to learn to tell stories. too often we find ourselves speaking to the converted. everybody is nodding and doing yes, i agree. what i've tried to do in my professional life is tell stories that appeal to everybody, that doesn't have a d or ar an r in front of it. if we have all the elements of a good story, then we don't get stuck in only one paragraph. it was really about our own responsibility to each other, not to completely always go into the binary, black or white, gay or straight, israeli or palestinian. the responsibility goes back to the ancients.

it isn't even american democratic founding. it's know thyself. we're always happy to tell each other what we're doing wrong. all of the work of life spiritually and collectively in our communities and in our government comes from our own self-discipline, our willingness to choose virtue over vulgarity. that's where we've got to be making those clear distinctions. that's critical, but also telling more complicated stories about democracy's work. dictators always say i've got the easy solution. here's how we do it. we just take 15 million people and get them out of here. or we just stop the press, which is noisy over here. all of a sudden people become

susceptible. thomas jefferson said it in the declaration, all experience has shown that mankind is more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable. the whole history of human beings we have been peasants under rule. in this new thing, there are going to be individual responsibilities, obviously the first of which is vote. that's hugely important. also it requires being informed. we were reading thomas payne and getting reports from georgia. people wanted to be informed. now we just listen to what we want to hear and it reenforces how bad the other is. we need to figure out a platform and start altering the narrative

to get out, to have conversations, to make clear distinctions, but also remind people of the fundamental responsibility that you bring up. that's why your question is so central to the survival of our republic. >> ken's full commencement address to brandeis university's class of 2024 is online now through his digital platform, kenburnsumin.com. thank you so much. thank you for delivering that incredible commencement address and generating this conversation. take care, ken. jen psaki, some ideas there for the campaign, i would think. >> no doubt about it. just a few. the way he talks about this moment in history, you know, we don't know who that will break through to, but i think it's important for people to hear.

we don't need to suggest that the american public is not smart enough to consume what this moment in history means. but there's almost no one who does it better than he does, and that speech was incredibly, incredibly powerful for anyone who hasn't seen it. >> i think the opportunity is, in fact, to build coalitions. the biden coalition is very specific. it's not the obama coalition, it's not the secretary clinton coalition. it's a coalition made up of democratic voters, a number of independent voters and republican voters. that's the coalition that powered president biden and vice president harris to the white house. i think there could be a tendency for folks, older voters

with the cap on insulin and the folks on medicare and the negotiating drug prices. that is what joe biden and kamala harris fought for. that is why that has happened. because we've heard that so often,older voters are paying attention. we have to include young voters, black voters, latino voters, women. when you talk to the heart of economic issues, issues of freedom for women's ability to make decisions about their own body, those are issues that unite people across the board. folks in downtown chicago are dealing with some of the same issues that people living in rural north carolina are dealing with. sometimes people just talk about it differently. >> symone sanders townsend, thank you very much.

we'll be watching "the weekend" saturdays and sundays beginning at 8:00 a.m. and of course, a new edition of "morning mika." coming up, we're going to get another live report from the courthouse in lower manhattan as day two of jury deliberations gets under way. also ahead, he's the founder of spacex, the ceo of tesla and the owner of x, but will elon musk add presidential advisor to his resume? we'll be right back. his resume we'll be right back.

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♪♪ beautiful live picture of new york city, 9:30 in the morning. somewhere downtown in that picture, the jury has reentered

the courtroom in donald trump's criminal hush-money trial. meanwhile, elon musk may become an advisor for former president trump if the republican nominee is elected in november. the "wall street journal" is reporting, quote, the role hasn't been fully hammered out and might not happen, but the two men discussed ways to give musk formal input and influence over the economy. trump and musk speak several times a month. musk and his political allies host gatherings of powerful business leaders across the country to try to convince them not to support president biden's reelection campaign. bring in the coanchor of cnbc's "squawk box" andrew ross sorkin. good morning. if we didn't know it already, it does appear at least elon musk is firmly in the camp during

this campaign, for starters, of donald trump. >> sort of. so this is a bit of a stealth endorsement if you will. it makes for strange bedfellows. the truth is elon musk for a very long has been publicly critical of donald trump, just within the last year telling tucker carlson, wouldn't it be nice to have a normal person be the president? and maybe you could take that as a comment about president biden, but i think it was registered the other way. it's really, i think, early days to see what's happening here. he has been outspoken in that he will not vote for president biden. in fact, i did that interview with elon musk last november where he effectively said the reason that he didn't want to vote for president biden was in large part due to his frustration that president biden

iced him out early on in favor of automakers that were using unions. tesla did not use a union, and that created sort of early fiction. elon musk said he believed president biden and the democrats have gone too far left, this "woke mind virus" concept, and that has led him not to vote for president biden. having said that, we don't know where the story really lies. there are a couple of people trying to position this as an opportunity for trump to get on board with musk. by the way, musk would like trump very much to be on twitter. trump doesn't want to go on twitter, because he has his own truth social platform. there's lots of very strange things going on here. and elon musk owns tesla, a company that has been about

trying to solve climate change, and the truth is president trump has been on the other side of that issue. we'll see where this goes. president trump did use informal advisors that lived inside the business world during his presidency. so whether he ends up calling on musk or not, i think, remains uncertain. it is worth noting that elon musk was, like many other executives, part of some of these committees that were called to help advise the president in the first term, and he ended up stepping off one of those committees after he decided he couldn't abide by some of the things former president trump was doing when he was the president. >> andrew, musk is also in the satellite business. there was a piece in the times the other day about not only is he in the satellite business, he goes out of his way to obstruct or impede anyone else that wants to go into the satellite business.

can you get a sense from the many people you talk to, is there any sense of potential danger in elon musk that they fear. >> i think the fear is that elon musk maybe has too much influence, especially when it comes to the fact that he does control the race to space at the moment. that's why, i think, folks are hopefully trying to be very supportive to folks like jeff bezos and others who are trying to get space and get satellites in the sky. but right now there is a demonstrable reliance on elon musk across the world. this is not just true of the u.s., but when it comes to defending our allies in other parts of the world. so that is a real concern. you could argue one reason elon musk is trying to get close to former president trump is that it would help his business. having said that, it hasn't hurt his business to be as publicly

vocal against president biden, oddly enough, in large part because he has, at least right now, a monopoly on that business. >> andrew ross sorkin, fascinating dynamics at play between politics and business. thank you so much. good to see you. jen, i want to ask you about the nate cohen "new york times" piece i referenced. it kind of gets to the handwringing you hear almost every day from democrats. >> not just democrats, people kind of in the basement of 30 rock who ask me is it going to be okay. >> there's in some quarters this resignation that we're going back to donald trump. first of all, it's late may. if you look at the data, if the election were held today, it would not be terribly surprising if joe biden won the election today, and he still has time to

do more. >> this is really about six or seven states. that is what the election is about. in half of those states joe biden is within a point or two, which is within margin of error. that's quite close. what the president has to do is bring those voters home who voted for him in 2020. part of that may be doing more on abortion rights and abortion access, which is something that may bring people who hate both candidates back. it's six or seven states. this is why national polls don't matter. these state polls don't factor everyone.

getting people out to vote is not always easy. in some ways it was easier in 2020 because so many states did not vote by mail because of covid. i think that was effective in laying out really the realities of it, not overly positive for president biden, but a reminder that all is not lost. it might be okay. we have some time to go here, and there's more work to be done in bringing the voters back from 2020. >> and a debate coming up in just a few weeks. >> that's what is they're focusing on right now, is the debate. >> calm for now, right? >> i mean, don't be too calm. i think, yes, it's a reminder to level set. this is going to be very close. it's going to be down to the

wire. it's on the margins. what the campaign is doing in reaching out and showing up in communities that have said they would not vote for him, that's exactly the right thing to do. >> helping turn that anxiety into action. >> there you go. >> watch "inside with jen psaki" mondays at noon and 8:00 p.m. eastern. we'll see you soon. >> sounds great. moments from now, day two of jury deliberations in former president trump's criminal hush-money trial will begin. we'll go to the courthouse in lower manhattan next on "morning joe." thouse in lower manhattan next on "morning joe.

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43 past the hour. let's go right to vaughn hillyard live outside the courthouse in new york city.

what's going on inside the courtroom right now? >> reporter: good morning, mika. we're tracking this realtime. donald trump is back inside of the courtroom as well as the jury. they have delivered an additional note here this morning clarifying what parts of jury instructions they want read back to them this morning inside of this courtroom. you'll recall that yesterday before court closed for the day and before jury deliberation day number one ended, this jury requested to have parts of the jury instructions read back to them. it took an hour and 26 minutes yesterday to do that. this is where it's articulated what the law is that they are looking to determine donald trump's guilt over and the extent to which they are able to draw inferences of facts states in this case. the new note says they would like pages 7 through 35 read

back to them. if you do the math, that should take about 45 minutes. they also requested to have four different parts of witness testimony, specifically from david pecker and michael cohen, read back to them here this morning. we expect that to look like about 35 pages of testimony. it relates to conversations that took place between donald trump, michael cohen and david pecker in 2015, 2016 that's what the prosecution alleged to be the beginning of this conspiracy to hatch this catch-and-kill scheme. that is expected to take about 40 minutes to read back. so court here today should look like donald trump and the jury back in the courtroom to read back some of these notes. they do not have the entire pact of jury instructions in front of them. so if they want clarification, they must request judge merchan to read back to them.

they have headphones to listen to some of the audio exhibits introduced here in this trial, and they have the actual transcript of the witness testimony. if they want testimony read back to them, they've got to request it. that could indicate, based off the jury's note so far, that this may not be a quick decision. we'll see just what that may look like a little bit later this morning and note if any additional notes come in for judge merchan. >> vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. our live coverage continues in just a moment. our live coverage continues in just a moment. and doug. (bell ringing) limu, someone needs to customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. let's fly! (inaudible sounds) chief! doug.

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why did you go to san francisco? >> to see the end of the world. >> this is it? the place you chose of all the

places you have seen. no flowers, no garden at all. you live like a dog. >> a happy dog. >> you have to tell me where you want me to plant the trees. >> you are still a dog. >> can i have your attention, ladies and gentlemen? i am sergeant webb of the california regiment. we need volunteers if we want to fight to save the union. we're looking for men of honor. >> i'm thinking about enlisting. >> this is not your problem. this is not your country. >> it's the right thing to do, fighting against slavery. >> we have a life together now. it is only beginning. >> be my wife. >> you cannot make things right with a consolation prize. >> no sense being all alone on a night like this. >> no different than any other. i am fine, mr. jeffries. >> you most certainly are. >> a look at the new film "the dead don't hurt."

it's set in the american west of the 1860s. the film follows the immigrant couple vivian and olson as they struggle with olson's departure to fight for the union army in the civil war. leaving vivian to fend for herself in a dangerous small town. and joining us now the stars, actor, director, and writer of the film, vigo mortenson, also with us actress vicky creeps. good morning to you both. thanks for being here. >> that's a lot of hatds to wear on one film set, is it not? >> it sounds like i'm harboring all the work, but it's not true. all those things are done in in collaboration with other people, we had a great team. enjoyed it. >> what was it about this time, the american west of the 1860s, come upon the civil war, that fascinated you enough to do all the work you did to put it on the screen? >> we tried to make a classic western, like the ones i

remembered growing up watching, you know, but there are some significant differences. the two main characters, vicky's character and mine are not anglo-saxon born in the usa characters. they don't have english as their first language. the lead character is vivian. he does go away even though he's not from this country. he's been here ten years and he sort of adopts it as his country many, and he decides to join the union forces and fight in the civil war leaving her to fend for herself, you know, and it's really a story about her, and we stay with her, which you never do. usually you go with the guy off to war. i wanted to explore what happens to women, girls when their partners, their fathers, their sons go off and fight! that's part of what's so

extraordinary about this film is that he does go off to war, and this is a story about vivian. how do you describe what she goes through after her husband goes off to war? >> i think she goes through what many women go through now, you know. it's just a very universal female experience to be the one who stays behind and that holds everything together, holds the family together, holds the whole village together, you know, like i think there's whole continents nowadays that have been held together by women, and the difference is that we don't see them or we don't talk about them, and this movie you stay with her. what i find most to me personally, most interesting about the film is that we don't stay with her because she's particularly especially strong. you know, she's not a hero. she's just a woman. >> ordinary. >> yeah. but we stay with her, and that's what is so beautiful and respectful, i think, about the

film. >> there were probably a lot of women like that back then. it's just that the people writing stories about that time, men, didn't really -- weren't interested in telling the stories about strong, independent feisty women, you know. >> the two elements that you're just talking about right now are truly fascinating and relatively unknown elements. one, the union army was an army of immigrants, a large number of immigrants fought that war for a country that they weren't born into. and the women who were left behind -- and you're left behind on a frontier that's filled with loneliness and danger, unheard of in later days, but very common in those days. >> yeah, i mean, like i said, i think there were lots of women like that, and the inspiration for vicky's character vivian was my mom. she was like vivian and like vicky strong-willed.

had her own ideas about things. i thought let's put this story of vivian in that time on the western frontier, you know, in the 1860s, a place that's kind of lawless dominated by a handful of very powerful, unscrupulous men who are not averse to using -- to achieve their goals. seems like things don't change much but that gave her more of a challenge, i think. >> that was interesting because i've never felt i'm in this other time. i really felt very much myself because even though i'm not struggling with the same, you know, situation, but i feel like that very often that i'm still fighting against an invisible frontier maybe or invisible, you know, enemies. i keep trying to understand when i am as a woman. am i this kind of woman, am i the actress, am i the mother, what role am i supposed to play? who am i supposed to please or how independent can i be, so

interesting enough, playing it, even now when i talk about it to you, i don't even feel like it was a historic movie, you know, because it's so like now. >> that's well said. "the dead don't hurt" is in theaters nationwide. that starts tomorrow, it co-stars viggo mortenson and vicky krieps. >> msnbc's coverage of jury deliberations in donald trump's criminal trial continues after a quick break.

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good morning. it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. let's get right to the breaking news in the historic trial of donald trump. the jury just back in the courtroom right now after sending a third note early this morning specifying the portion of the judge'sy