good to be with you. i'm katy tur. all eyes are on lower manhattan where five women and seven men are in their eighth hour of deliberations, tasked with deciding whether donald trump is guilty of a cover up to interfere with the 2016 election. this morning, the jurors asked the court for a second hearing of key testimony. the descriptions from both michael cohen and david pecker about the 2015 trump tower meeting where the three men agreed to work together to promote and protect donald trump in the press. from pecker, quote, at that meeting, donald trump and michael, they asked me what i can do and what my magazine could do to help the campaign. i said what i would do is i would run or publish positive stories about mr. trump, and i would publish negative stories about his opponents. i said i would be your eyes and ears. if i hear anything negative or

hear anything about women selling stories, i would notify michael cohen. this from michael cohen's testimony, quote, what he, david pecker said was he could keep an eye out for anything negative about mr. trump, and that he would be able to help us to know in advance what was coming out and to try to stop it from coming out. the jury also asked for the judge to read back his instructions, laying out the crimes they are considering, and how they need to consider them, including the definition of reasonable doubt. from judge juan merchan, quote, it is an actual doubt, not an imaginary doubt. it is a doubt of reasonable person, acting in a matter of this importance would be likely to entertain because of the evidence presented or the lack of convincing evidence. so, will the jury find donald trump guilty beyond a reasonable

doubt, and if so, will they be convinced on all 34 counts. we could find out any moment, joining us now, nbc news national correspondent, yasmin vossoughian who's outside of that new york city courthouse for us. also with us is former assistant district attorney in manhattan and msnbc legal analyst, catherine christian, former assistant district attorney of the manhattan d.a.'s office, daniel horowitz, and former federal prosecutor and criminal defense attorney, duncan levin. when i was in the overflow room, i could donald trump, the prosecution, the defense, the judge, the woman playing the michael cohen and david pecker roles, reading back the testimony. i could not see the jury. what insight do we have about the jury and what they were doing this morning as they were getting back the jury instructions but also getting

back that key testimony? >> the ever important jury, right, that's what everyone is focused on right now when it comes to what's happening inside that courtroom or as we should say at this point, what's happening inside that deliberation room, if any of us could be a fly on the wall, what we would hear. as these jury instructions were being read back to the jury, as parts of this testimony from both david pecker and michael cohen were being read back to the jury, i am being told from those reporters that were inside the courtroom, the jurors were taking notes. they were taking lots of notes. they were turning over pages as well. we know now who the jury foreperson was. it was the first juror that was chosen when the jury was actually seated. that individual, i was told, was actually not taking notes, but everybody else in that jury box were, in fact, very much taking notes issue especially during the portion of those jury instructions. katy, you have seen it, so many of us have seen it at this point. these are the jury instructions. 55 pages long.

this is incredibly difficult to understand, even though i've read it four times over at this point. i still don't get it at certain points. by the way, you can't take it into the deliberation room. you can imagine why jurors are taking notes, so studiously, especially in the lead-up to count one. one other thing i think i would note, when it comes to the jury, they pay a lot of attention, take a lot of cues from judge juan merchan, and we kind of took that away from when we saw the testimony of stormy daniels, when we saw the testimony of michael cohen, and how focused in the jury was on judge juan merchan's instructions to the jury. i can remember this example of her testimony, when she was chided by judge merchan. it seemed as if the jury was kind of taking from judge juan merchan's energy at that point,

and i imagine they were doing the exact same thing during these jury instructions as he was walking through them very slowly, and even saying, listen, don't take anything away from the intonation of my voice during these jury instructions, right? this is just to make sure you are understanding these instructions clearly, katy. >> and he was reading them very slowly because as you said, they're complicated, they're also very wordy, i mean, they could use an editor, just me saying it. they could use an editor, simplify the language, make it a little plainer. >> slash some words. >> just some red pen. yasmin, talk to me about the way those jury instructions, though, are being used to the advantage of those who have nefarious purposes, what's nbc news reporting regarding threats to the judge on the basis of those jury instructions? >> so as it often happens, there

are folks that are taking these jury instructions in other parts of the media online as well, and kind of more of the right wing corners of online media, and misinterpreting what is actually being delivered by judge juan merchan in these 55 pages of jury instructions, specifically when it comes to the unanimity of a decision, right, that at this point there is a message that's being put out there that this jury does not need to have a unanimous decision. and because of that now, there are threats against judge juan merchan, and i'll give you two examples of those threats, and i'm going to give you the fact check of what judge juan mer chan actually said when it came to the decision of the threats being heard right now online. at one point, someone posting time to find out where judge juan merchan lives and protest. judge juan merchan is the merchant of death, threats like that are being posted online now by kind of the right wing corners of, you know, the internet. the reality of what was said in these jury instructions, let me

read this quickly, judge juan merchan saying that you must conclude unanimously that a defendant conspired to promote or event the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means, adding that they need not be unanimous as to what those unlawful means were. and that there, katy is the distinction. >> all right. let's bring to the table, catherine, talk to me about the jury instructions, we have gone over this so many times about not having a need to be unanimous, but i think people are surprised by that because when you think of a criminal jury, everything you have been told over the years, if you know anything about it is that the jury does have to be unanimous. how is it that they don't have to agree on the underlying intent here? >> that's actually not true. what yasmin said was for the unlawful means not unanimous, but for whether or not he caused false entries, they have to find

guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, that he did it with the intent to defraud, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he did it with the intent to commit or conceal a crime, beyond a reasonable doubt, that that other crime is new york election law, conspireing to promote an election by unlawful means, all 12, beyond a reasonable doubt. the piece that has been misstated, misconstrued, just lied about is the unlawful means piece. the unlawful means could be federal campaign violation, tax law violation or falsification of other business records. that piece, the jurors have five, seven on the others, but everything else, the main charge, and what's offensive, there is someone on another network who's a former judge, a former d.a. who was a very good d.a., by the way, in new york who is part of this kor ris of misinformation. if the judge had said, you do not have to be unanimous about

whether or not donald trump falsified business records, the lawyers have been running to the appellate division and filing a new york article 78 writ of prohibition, that did not happen and that's been out there, and it's just false. they have to be unanimous for the main charge, which is falsifying business records. >> the other thing that's being misconstrued is that this jury doesn't have access to the rules because the judge isn't allowing them to have access to the jury instructions. they can't bring those instructions back with them, again, perpetuated by people who know better. >> no jury can do that. >> explain that. >> in new york in 1987, new york's highest court, which is called the court of appeals. it's not called the supreme court. that's our trial court. here in new york, we call the highest court the court of appeals. in 1987, the court of appeals issued a decision that said jurors are not allowed to take the actual written charge with

them into the jury room. now, whether that makes sense in today's world doesn't matter because that's what the law is. so anybody who says otherwise is misstating what the law is and frankly, jurors are smart. when they need help, they did exactly what they did yesterday. they rang the bell, and they said, judge, can you give us the instructions again. and they'll do that again and again as long as they need to, until they reach a verdict. >> we could hear a bell any moment. we heard a bell two minutes before air yesterday. they're coming up on eight hours and 14 minutes of deliberations. they might have another question or a verdict soon. we'll find out. let me ask you, duncan, about the counts. there are 34 counts and i've got a trusty graphic in front of me. invoices, vouchers and checks: there were a couple of checks not signed by donald trump and the invoices made by michael cohen.

in talking to people and looking over the prosecution's argument, the question that many have is did the prosecution, say they were able to prove the other stuff, did they prove, beyond a reasonable doubt that donald trump caused michael cohen to create a false invoice? could that be some of the counts that donald trump perhaps, it's more easy to find him not guilty for? >> that's one of the probably weakness areas of the prosecution's case, this notion of whether donald trump caused the false filings, even though it's sort of the boring part of the case that no one is focusing on. it's the sexier part of the case with hush money payments but the notion of cause was something that the parties were fighting about with the jury instructions and the prosecution was asking for a very advanced sort of expansive definition of the word cause that donald trump put in

motion a set of events, said it was reasonably foreseeable that these business records would be falsified. but they wound up getting a much more narrow instruction that's called accomplice liability, that really requires the prosecution, if the jury is paying attention to it to show that he, you know, actually caused them these records to be filed so the question is, is there evidence that's different between the invoices and the checks? it's unclear is the real answer to the question. nobody knows. but i do think the jury could come away and say, yeah, there's more evidence. the invoices are different than the checks. at the end of the day, he signed these $35,000 checks to michael cohen, and that is the circumstantial evidence that he was aware of these false invoices because they were attached on to the checks that he was signing. >> he signed nine out of the 11 checks. the sum and substance, if you will, of today's read back other

than the jury instructions they got key testimony from michael cohen and from david pecker. catherine, again, this is about the conspiracy. it's about the conversations at trump tower, how this alleged scheme came into being. does it matter that michael cohen and david pecker used some of the almost exact same language. we read it at the top, to describe that meeting. >> it matters because it makes particularly michael cohen more than anyone else credible. it also corroborates michael cohen, accomplice liability. accomplice in new york state. you cannot just find guilty on michael cohen's testimony. that is the law in new york, and you heard josh steinglass talking about the mountain of evidence, mountain of corroboration, he knew the judge was going to tell the jury that. what's also important about the read back for the prosecution, and they're not going to be talking saying this means we're going to win.

i'm sure they're happy. it's their theory of the case that this conspiracy was hatched at the trump tower, august 2015, and donald trump was not a passive participant. he was the boss as michael cohen refers to him. >> testified to a direct conversation. >> it was donald trump who called david pecker, and david pecker had to come out of a meeting. it wasn't pecker calling trump, cohen calling david pecker, it was donald trump, the leader, you could say of the conspiracy. >> daniel? >> i think if i'm the prosecution, i'm very pleased with that read back because what you want to do in a summation and josh steinglass just did a masterful glass of this, you want to give the jury a road map to follow when they get into that jury room. for all the reasons we're talking about with jury instructions and complicated facts. here's what they have done, just as catherine said, they have framed the case with the first and the last witness about the most important corroboration

that we have of michael cohen. and the fact that they use similar language, not exactly the same language, but similar, is critical. right? they didn't coordinate their system. they're talking about the same meeting, using the same words to describe the same set of facts why in the prosecution's view, because that's exactly what happened, and that's why you can believe michael cohen. >> and you have michael cohen who has a motive to get donald trump. he's aggravated with donald trump. he's not happy. you have david pecker who likes donald trump, and considers him a friend and in the prosecution's words, no reason to lie about donald trump. everyone, stick around, we're not going anywhere. still ahead, the view inside donald trump's holding room. it has been described as bleak, but today they got an update in that room. we'll tell you what it is. and if donald trump is found guilty, what happens immediately after the verdict is read? what we're told the court is preparing for. plus, justice alito is refusing to recuse, but there is a way to force the issue.

the constitutional quirk, if you will, requiring recusal. congressman jamie raskin just proposed. we are back in 90 seconds. in 90.

as the jury deliberates, the former president is stuck inside a waiting room at the courthouse, where a tv was set up today. jason miller, one of donald trump's senior campaign advisers wouldn't say what the former

president was watching specifically when i asked him earlier today, but donald trump's truth social posts highlighting coverage on fox news and news max. do give us a clue. joining us from outside the courthouse is nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. so vaughn, talk to me about how donald trump has been holding up during these deliberations? >> reporter: right, and two of his close surrogates, north dakota governor doug burgum, as well as alina habba, one of his legal advisers, they appeared on newsmax within about an hour of each other here. so we can make some assumptions about what channels he was likely watching here today, but he has also been posting a flurry of social media posts and for donald trump, this is a waiting game. he is forced to be here at the courthouse, waiting for the jury to deliberate, and ultimately make its verdict known. i asked alina habba what it is like inside of this room, where donald trump is holding with his son eric and don jr., and other

allies, take a listen to what she's saying. how is president trump viewing what is taking place? what are the conversations in the side room looking like right now? >> i'm not going to speak to privileged information, obviously, but the president is doing well. i have said that time and time again. he truly is resilient, working and busy, and waiting like the rest of us. >> reporter: she also talked about the fact that the jury came back out to the judge merchan to have some of those different passages read out. and she says that they were, i believe that to be good news. the quote was she said i think the disagreement in jury is a good sign, generally speaking, the fact that they're asking those questions is a good sign. you don't want to bat in guilty verdicts, suggesting the jury could have if they wanted to walked into the deliberation room, and quickly decided amongst all 12 of them, he is guilty, come out and read the verdict. the inside of the room, with their defendants sitting there to suggest this is potentially good news that there is at least conversation happening about

whether he's guilty or not. >> vaughn, this is at least the second time that governor doug burgum has showed up, is he now a leading contender for vice president? >> reporter: he still is actively the governor of north dakota but he has been spending quite a bit of time here in the country's biggest city here of new york. i think at this point in time, he has become a very close ally of donald trump's here, and as governor burgum is walking by, jason, feel free to have him stop by here. okay. we're on the list. doug burgum again walking by, maybe this time to fox news. we have been added to the list, katy. we'll see if he comes back. i know you had the chance to speak with him a moment yourself. the list of potential vp picks is quite smile at this point. governor burgum, ever since he was the first former 2024 rival of donald trump to endorse him there two weeks before the iowa caucus, he has been somebody who has been very much in his corner and a surrogate, including here

in the middle of his criminal trial. >> i'm saying bring the governor over to vaughn's camera right now. we'll see if this message gets answered. vaughn hillyard, thank you so much. and what is the jury dealing with behind closed doors, and how are they going about lining up the complicated instructions from the judge with the evidence in front of them? msnbc's katie phang is here to explain what could jam deliberations up. and can supreme court justice samuel alito be forced to recuse himself from january 6th cases. what one house judiciary member says congress can do to require a recusal. to require a recusal. *trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪

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the jury in donald trump's hush money/election interference case is in the middle of a mammoth task. internet the law, try to match it up with the 34 counts of falsifying records, and then find intent. what exactly does all of that mean. joining us now, msnbc legal correspondent and host of msnbc's "the katie phang show," katie phang. make sense of it for us. >> i will definitely do that. it's not as difficult as some people are making it out to be. there is a novelty to this particular charge because i actually looked into it myself, "the washington post" did. when you try to go and you research this particular new york election law statute, it's only cited twice, and both times in reference to juan merchan and this case. so in terms of precedent, it doesn't have that.

however, the gem about this, katy, is the underlying falsification of the business records is a no brainer. the falsification either caused by donald trump or done by donald trump. we know he didn't go into the trump organization records to do it. and then the fact that he was doing it to elevate to the felony is that it was done to influence the 2016 election. more accurately, he did it with the intent to be able to commit another crime. the jury is going through all the evidence and considering what is the other crime, the new york election law that the prosecutor explained in the opening statements. the crime is the new york election when you try to prevent or promote somebody to be a public official in an election. here's the luxury, i love saying this, there's a buffet of criminality from which the jury can choose because the means, the unlawful means, what was the dirty deeds that were done to get donald trump across the finish line, and you don't need

a unanimous verdict on that. you don't need all 12 to agree. they could say the falsification of the business records, that's part of it, meaning the actual invoices and the ledgers themselves. it could be the fact that the llc was opened as the account. it could be improper tax documents that were done as well. it could be the violation of the federal election campaign act. and so to that end, as we sit here today, for example, we could all agree that the misdemeanor falsification happened and that he meant to, intended to violate the new york election law. you could say it was this and that and catherine could say it's something else, as long as we have a unanimous agreement that trump meant to or caused the misdemeanor falsification or intended to violate the new york election law, there's your guilty verdict. >> daniel and catherine and duncan are with us. if you're talking about the buffet of criminality, what are the day old devilled education on this buffet, what's going to jam things up? >> you know, it's whether the

jury gets confused because they don't have the benefit of the 55 pages of the jury instructions and whether they don't recall that it doesn't have to be unanimous. but here's the gem. when we heard judge merchan this morning, read pages 6 through 35 of the jury instructions, that was included. the unlawful means, that was described to the jury as following, although you must conclude unanimously that the defendant must conspire to prevent the election of a person, you need not be unanimous as to what those unlawful means. the jury has to remember that. that could be the hiccup, to think they have to be in agreement for the unlawful means. here is where those two lawyers on the jury may come in handy, they being people that are familiar with the law even though they're a civil litigator or corporate lawyer, as you'll recall, that's what judge says. that's the black box in the jury rooms. we don't know the extent and the depth and the intensity of the conversation. are they really going at it or just trying to fill out the

verdict form right now. you may get a verdict. >> that was the ipad ringing, fyi, none of the phones, it was the studio ipad ringing. >> the foreperson, when i was in court, he never took notes. he was always kind of hard to read, stone faced. he would raise his eyebrows every once in a while and a smirk here and there. everyone's taking down copious notes, he also was not taking down notes. does that make you nervous if you're a prosecutor or defense attorney? >> no, because people take in information and synthesize it in different ways. you look at people's backgrounds, you look at how much education they have, perhaps what they do for a living. you may be a visual person and i may be a visual person but i like to print things out and highlight them. i would be your copious note taker. we know there have been about three or four copious note takers, especially this morning.

>> do you think that person has a gut feeling where they're going on this and doesn't need to be as, i don't know, into the intricate details? >> and the answer is yes, and the reason why is sometimes it is okay to decide based on your gut because if your gut completely fixes with and jives with the evidence and the law, you're fine, right? >> you're nodding your head. >> people take in information all sorts of ways. the other thing to remember is we're not going to get a special verdict form at the end of this. we're not going to know what the jurors were thinking or what from this menu of options they're going to agree on. by the way, it could be multiple. they could say, unlawful means was all of them. it was stormy daniels payment, it was the payment to karen mcdougal, it was tax payments, it was bank payments, it was the filing of false business records. it's all of it. and we will really never know. there's not a special verdict form. i wouldn't take anything as a -- >> you have to define what a special verdict form is.

>> sure. so from this menu, sometimes the judge will give a verdict form which actually lays out that by unlawful means and has the jury pick out which ones from these unlawful means they're agreeing on or not agreeing on. in this case, all it is is going to be the elements of the crime. it's not going to say what these different unlawful means are. it's going to say, have you found it beyond a reasonable doubt. it's not going to say yes or no. you can't see what the choose your own adventure is. >> just great for the prosecution. >> do you guys agree? >> yes. and that's how it is in new york state count. it's just going to be count one, verdict. and then the foreperson. >> they go through all 34. >> each and every count, though it will literally look the same but for a variation on a check number or invoice, that will say number one, it will read out count one, and have a line for guilty, a line for not guilty. my question for you guys, do

they start with guilty or not guilty on the verdict forms here? >> i can't remember. >> guilty, not guilty. >> guilty first, and then not guilty, and go to count two and duoall the way to that, and they'll have a signature for the foreperson. >> and if it's guilty, the judge will ask, mr. blanche, do you want the jury to be polled and he'll probably say yes, juror number one, is that your verdict? yes, and all the way down through all 12 of them. >> have you talked about allen charges. is it too early. >> go ahead, take us there. we have 30 seconds. >> you don't want to go there yet, don't jinx us, katie phang. >> if the jury comes back and advise the judge, we cannot reach a verdict of unanimity. we're not unanimous on certain charges, it's based on the law and has the judge urging them, not too urgently saying you need to go back and try harder and

try to get across the finish line. >> how long does that go? before the allen charge. >> we're not close. we're not close. >> they have to bring out a note saying we are hopelessly deadlocked. >> sometimes if it's deep into the deliberations, you have been at it far week, the judge might give like a modified allen charge just to spur them on. but we're not close to an allen charge. >> i'm going to long beach before the tomatoes get thrown at me. should not have brought that up. >> the one thing about allen charge. if you do get to one, whether the judge reinstruct them on this whole question of unanimity and not unanimity on the unlawful means? and if i was a betting person, i would say that merchan is going to do that but he doesn't have to. >> doesn't he open the case up to an appeal if he pushes too

hard for unanimity? >> he does, but i think he's entitled with the allen charge to provide legal instructions. there's nothing improper about that. >> i have to take a break. a little bit of color inside the courtroom, and color is a generous way of describing it. it's very black and white. no sign of life according to lisa rubin. a member of the court staff made copies of a document. it's unclear if it has anything to do with the case. exciting stuff. we're going to continue to watch the courtroom that closely as you just saw for any sign of life, if one comes. and coming up, congressman jamie raskin looks to ramp up pressure on supreme court justice samuel alito. who he is calling on now to force the issue. e ise.su sometimes your work shirt needs to be for more than just work. like when it needs to be a big, soft shoulder to cry on. which is why downy does more to make clothes softer, fresher, and better.

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supreme court justice samuel alito has made it clear to congressional democrats he will not recuse himself in january 6th cases after two controversial flags flew outside of his homes. just in the last hour, chief justice john roberts sent a response to senators dick durbin and sheldon whitehouse declining their invitation for a meeting about the issue. it follows an appeal from jamie raskin who made the case in a "new york times" op-ed that justice alito must recuse

himself or being compelled to recuse by fellow justices, using chief justice roberts own words to make the case, quote, at his senate confirmation hearing, chief justice roberts assured america that judges are like umpires, but professional baseball would never allow an umpire to continue to officiate the world series after learning that the pennant of one of the two teams competing was flying in the front yard of the umpire's home. nor would an umpire be allowed to call balls and strikes in a world series game after the umpire's wife tried to get the official score of a prior game in the series overthrown, and canceled out to benefit the losing team. if judges are like umpires then they should be treated like umpires, not team owners, team fans or players. joining us now, former law clerk to judge sonia sotomayor, and legal analyst, melissa murray.

jamie raskin argues that the department of justice including the u.s. attorney for the district of columbia and special counsel, solicitor general, all of whom were involved in different ways of the criminal prosecutions underlying the january 6th cases in front of the supreme court can petition the other seven justices to require justice alito and thomas to recuse themselves, not as a matter of grace but a matter of law. is he right about that? >> yes, i think he's right. given the constitution, the due process clause and the statute to which he refers in the op-ed, all of that can be done. it's a hail mary style pass, and the point of all of this, i think that representative raskin wants to underscore, this is a court completely unbound by any of the ethical guardrails that would bind any other court. it's a court that by its own estimation decided to subscribe to a code of ethics that actually weakened the kinds of guardrails for ethical

quandaries that we saw. we said this was a code that was toothless and left it to the justices to decide when they were out of bounds and when they weren't. representative raskin is underscoring the point, the court is high on its own supply and doing what it wants, and there are no effective guardrails here, no effective checks on this court, and we have a real problem in terms of separation of powers. >> what would be stopping the department of justice and the solicitor general and the special counsel from taking the step, given how extraordinary the circumstances are, and given that the flags, both of which have, you know, a connection to the stop the steal movement, a connection to donald trump supporters who believe the election or want to say the election was stolen. given the extraordinary circumstances in front of the supreme court and the significance and the impact it could have on november and the

future, why would they not make this move? >> you know why, katy. it would be seen as incredibly political and politically minded. we live right now in a time of increasing and extreme political polarization. any step like this would be viewed as a step toward persecuting donald trump, as it were. when i said this was a hail mary pass, it's because we live in a political climate where this is not possible at this point in time. typically when you have had calls for justices to recuse themselves or step down in our past, they have been bipartisan, but we are so divided in terms of what each side thinks is appropriate and right that we can't really get to a consensus for that kind of bipartisanship that has typically marked these kinds of efforts in the past. yes, there's definitely law on the side that representative raskin is talking about here. but it's unlikely to be actually deployed in this circumstance.

>> you clerked for justice sotomayor, do you have a sense of where her head might be at, and why the other justices or would they want to get involved? i know chief justice roberts declined an invitation to meet about it with dick durbin and sheldon whitehouse, do you think behind the scenes, the justices have tried to have a conversation about this? >> i think they are very close to one another. i'm sure this has been broached in a particular way. this is an unusual work requirement, where you are with these eight people for life. you have to maintain a modcome of a relationship. i think there isn't a lot of pushing that can be done, and certainly not in a circumstance like this where justice alito, and justice thomas are the anchors of a 6-3 conservative supermajority that really doesn't need to curry favor with the other side. they can do what they want. they have the numbers and they are doing what they want. and that means that right now,

in a situation that no other justice could be in, certainly not justice sotomayor. certainly not justice ketanji brown jackson, the idea of them flying the flags over their homes without incident is preposterous. for justice alito, anything goes because he has the votes. >> melissa murray, thank you very much for joining us. i appreciate your insight, especially on matters like this. >> thank you. coming up next, what we've learned on day 2 of deliberations. we are eight hours and 49 minutes into deliberations. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. chevy trucks' advanced camera technology lets you see over, under, through, down, and any other direction you may need. ♪♪ up to eight available cameras and fourteen views. ♪♪ so you can focus on the view that really matters. don't miss a thing. chevy's got you. chevrolet. together let's drive.

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jurors are about to get into hour nine of their deliberations. you can see the countdown clock on the screen in front of you. they are deliberating on 34 felony counts against former president trump. there have been no new questions since very early this morning. katherine christian is still with us. here's an interesting question. what happened immediately after if dth gets convicted. if the jury says guilty, does donald trump get handcuffed and taken away. what happens? >> first of all, this is the nonviolent felony. it's the lowest level felony in the state. also, donald trump has made every court appearance. with know where he's going. he can't flee anywhere. that's also why, quite frankly,

he's out. he has four different indictments. he's not going to flee anywhere. and there will be a date put on for sentencing. i can guarantee you if there's a conviction, they will file a motion to set aside the verdict, which could take months because it's going to be a back and forth. he has enough money to do that. so he's not getting handcuffed and taken to the back. >> i think katherine is right. but one thing he will have to do is he's going to have to be interviewed immediately by the department of probation like every other convicted, whether convicted of a misdemeanor or felony, everybody who is convicted, the judge is going to say report to probation and get interviewed. >> what with would probation be like for somebody on a campaign trail? >> usually, it's right there. >> he won't be put on probaugs.

>> he won't be put on probation. the purpose of the meeting is so that the probation department can prepare a report for the judge that the judge will use. >> if he gets sentenced, he won't get sentenced to prison. >> i don't think so. >> there are a few options on the table. there's something called a conditional discharge, which just means you're discharged with a couple conditions. the conditions could be for a normal defendant it could be drug testing or other types of restrictions. he could get probation. that's on the table. and he could get incarcerated up to four years. this crime carries a range of two to four. it's unlikely had for somebody's first arrest is going to wind up like that. it could be a split sentence. there's a whole men you of options. what will probably happen next

if convicted is both sides will argue for a conditional discharge and one for possibly some sort of split seasons sentence. >> can he vote if he's convicted? >> in new york, yes. >> he's not a resident of new york any longer though. he's a resident of florida. >> that's true. >> so florida looks to new york law. new york law says if you are incarcerated on the date of election day, you can't vote. if it you're not incars rated on election day, you can vote. even if that weren't the case, that could be commuted by the governor of state he lives in, which is ron desantis i think it's unlikely. >> felons can't vote in florida. he would be making a special exception, if he were not able to vote as a felon. he would make a special exception for donald trump? >> usually they make people to get cleanse clemen sit to serve out their full term. all the normal rules are out the window. >> he would not turn him over

if there was a warrant out for his arrest. everyone, we are on eight hours and 58 minutes of deliberations. when you come back from this short break, the jury will be on nine hours of deliberations, and you'll also see "deadline: white house" in just a moment. don't go anywhere. white house" in just a moment. don't go anywhere. and i also have a non-profit. but no matter what business i'm in... my network and my tech need to keep up. thank you verizon business. (kevin) now our businesses get fast and reliable internet from the same network that powers our phones. (waitress) all with the security features we need. (aaron) because my businesses are my life. man, the fish tacos are blowing up! so whatever's next... we're cooking with fire. let's make it happen! (vo) switch to the partner businesses rely on.

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