good evening, donald trump was convicted on 34 felony counts. our special coverage of this unprecedented verdict continues. i'm ari melber here with my colleagues. may third, 2024 is now a day etched in history. it was 4:30 p.m. when the jury in new york versus trump reached its verdict. the jury told the court triggering a process which unfolded over a roughly 36 minutes as the defendant, lawyers, and reporters returned to the courtroom. around the nation, people received alerts. a verdict was in. on msnbc as you can see, nicole wallace reported this verdict was imminent. and that this jury, which was tested in unusual ways and heard over 20 days of testimony and deliberated over nine

hours, this jury's work was done. it had not been delayed. and, jury's work and its findings were not deadlocked. they reached a unanimous decision filling out the legal forms tabulating each felony count signed by the anonymous foreperson who read out the verdict to the court. with no cameras in court, here is how the moments played out as the decision in the courtroom at 5:06 p.m. new york time ripped across the nation and the world. >> a verdict has been reached in former president donald trump's criminal kyle. >> count one, guilty, count two, guilty. count three, guilty. >> breaking news, donald trump found guilty on at least five of the 34 charges so far. >> tell us what's happening. >> there is an eruption, guilty

on one through five. >> it is accountability. it is exactly what america needs right now. count 20. guilty. count 21, guilty. count 22, guilty. >> the rule of law within liberal democracy has survived. >> how does the public receive this verdict? will it be fractured like the country? >> count 33 and 34. guilty. found guilty on all 34 felony counts. >> the breaking news, donald trump guilty in the so-called hush money criminal trial. >> the first former president of the united states convicted on criminal charges. >> the test for us now as a country is whether or not this former president and his allies will have succeeded in trying to undermine the rule of law so that people reject this as legitimate function of the rule of law in our country. >> that's what happened today. did you remember where you were

when you heard the verdict? when you heard it was guilty on all counts? as rachel just referred to, the rule of law held. that was the whole point today. that is far more significant than any commentary or complaints about it. donald trump stands convicted of these felony counts by a jury of his peers. the first such conviction of any former president. the kind of unprecedented negative fact that will be repeated many times throughout his life and history books. guilty is the legal fact. as rachel and our panelists have mentioned, it is law and order which we hear so often debated. it is a reality, a fact, a legal ramp to the next stage of sentencing. it echoes the true power we understand operates in courtrooms that work. the judge and the judge's rules, the jury's judgment and

its deliberations and certainly not the defendant. no matter who the defendant may be. whether this does lead to cuffs on another day, is an open question. but we can tell you how it will work and when it will be. today, the judge rejected at the end of the process, at the very end of the court, rejected an effort to set aside this verdict in any way and then announced sentencing for defendant trump now convicted july 11th which is four days before the republican convention. tonight, da bragg spoke about this case, declining to say what his office may seek regarding a potential jail sentence for a convicted defendant donald trump. they continued his approach to speak on this matter only through the court. >> while this defendant may be

unlike any other in american history, we arrived at this trial and ultimately today at this verdict in the same manner as every other case that comes through the courtroom doors. by following the facts and the law and doing so without fear or favor. >> without fear or favor. and we have here, the pages from the foreperson on the jury. unanimously read out. chris, i can ask you where you were when this happened but i know where you were. i know where we all were. as we reset here, some people coming home from different parts of tar lives as rachel likes to say, people are busy, we recap. big picture, what does today mean? >> we were between the verdict and the reading of the verdict. there was a flurry of tea leaf.

there is no hung jury. okay. i know a lot of people watching the trial thought you were going to get acquittals. right? that was generally the sense. and as you said, i thought really clarifyingly it was not an acquittal strategy, it was a hung jury. strategy. the unanimity of the verdict and the fact that every count was guilty to me creates a kind of clarity of the story for the american people about this trial. that would have been a little tougher if it weren't. changes the fact that he would be convicted of felonies but the unanimity sends a message about the seriousness of the case. the sereness with which it was

brought and the lack of reasonable doubt that what he did was criminal. >> i'm struck by this verdict coming on the same week that there has been a very divisive debate over the supreme court. it feels like a real stress test for the judicial system. in different ways but meaningful ways. a justice who has been resolute in his righteousness and said he does not need to recuse himself. there is a real loss of faith in the integrity of that court among some parts of the population. and this ruling. this verdict here that gives one part of the population. maybe the majority confident in the justice system. that the center can hold. and yet, you have in the same hour it is released, the republican machine working full

tilt to undermine american faith in this particular verdict and really the justice system at large. so it just feels like a maelstrom. a real moment in which it is unclear what happens from here. right? we don't know how the politics around this verdict will shake out and we don't know what the long term damage the republican party is doing to the justice system will be at present. i just think the sort of deep thinking we have to do about the integrity of our democracy, this moment really throws that all into sharp relief. >> michael cohen when he was here in that fantastic interview jumping to the ends of it, he said that this case was the fourth most important case donald trump faces. but i think there is a symmetry to the four cases that i think people may miss. they will get caught up in the

stormy daniels of it. if you think about it, the jack smith case and the case in georgia are about donald trump trying to retain power illegally by illegal means. the case that is dead in the water in florida is about donald trump trying to benefit from power. trying to steal the fruits of power. to steal the trinkets he got from being in power. but this case is about donald trump's criminality and willingness to commit crimes to retain that power in the first place. and but for what he did, in the acts that he committed that he was convicted for, today, each of these counts is about payments to the person who went to jail for this. and i think we can never forget the reason we started calling it the hush money election interference trial is that this was not a case about paying off stormy daniels. this was a case about using

illegal means to quash critical information that the public deserved in deciding whether to give donald trump power. the ultimate power in the united states. the highest office in the land. the leadership of the free world. and he broke the law, lied to the state of new york, lied not just for no reason, he did that to trick a public who had, he had been exposed as somebody who bragged about assaulting women. and to fix that, he paid off stormy daniels and got michael cohen to commit crimes to help him do it. i think the four cases do go together. for what he was convicted of here, he might not have had the opportunity to do the things in the other cases. >> to me, today was all about power. as soon as we got the verdict, i was on the phone with all

sorts of gop donors. trump is my guy. not one single person i called seemed to be fazed. no one i spoke to said he was innocent. they went after alvin bragg. and what's scary about that is why would all of these people, one of the ways you become a big gop donor, you are successful about something. these smart successful business people, this group doesn't care. they know now more than ever, trump is especially weak and humiliated. if they side with him now and stand with him publicly now, he is going to owe them. and what is really scary when we are talking about ultimate power, now there is a whole universe of people saying i will stand with this guy because he is weak.

this is a group of people who want to have ultimate power and they want this man to be president so we don't have a normal judicial system. think about the moment we are in. 12 americans sat there for five weeks. hours and hours. the justice system worked. the fact there are still people out there saying i'm okay with it, that is really a moment to think about where we are. >> it deals with filing. but i think when we consider to kind of the point four different diems that donald trump faces, alvin bragg's was the first. and alvin bragg's case was the first trial. i used this phrase original sin day after day. the jury focused on the 2015 trump tower meeting between david pecker, michael cohen and donald trump.

and that is the original sin that was the hatching of the scheme of catch and kill. and the first in line, first in time was this case. because all the subsequent indictments came from after donald trump made it. successfully to the oval. and a year ago, when the indictment was unsealed, and announced, i was on joy's show. with charles coleman. another great legal analyst and i said donald trump stole the election. this is how we know he stole the election. now we know the extent of his election interference and the hush money phrase was catchy. but alvin bragg figured out how to make it matter because people didn't think hush money was such a big deal. but the person we heard from the least had the most important in this case and that was alvin bragg. he didn't try this case. a lot of jurisdictions, a lot of das and state attorneys

want the limelight. they will try this case. alvin bragg showed up to support his lieutenants. to support the assistant district attorneys. you have only seen alvin bragg once in a while do a presser, it is how it is supposed to be. what is remarkable about this trial, it is really unremarkable. every single day there are verdicts rendered guilt or innocence, hung juries or not. but this is how the process plays out. >> can i ask you a question then? katie was laying out for us this original meeting with david pecker. donald trump has yet to go after david pecker. david testimony was so damning, yet we have not heard one single negative word out of donald trump's mouth about david pecker. it has to make you wonder.

what else does he know? given how damning his testimony was. in the fate of donald trump. >> not only has he not gone after him, but said he is a nice guy. a good guy. they talk about the bots, what if he gets hit by a truck? you really have to wonder what's in the box. >> what's the compromise that david pecker has. >> even if you are on the other side of the law, we see this and we are talking about criminal law. may intimidate a lot of people. but they have created a new set of enemies or people who have power over them. even if you pay them. the hitman is a contract killer. so no one is alleging violence here. but if the information is what killed other people politically and hurt them in the campaign,

we have evidence about cohen and trump talking about what would happen if pecker moved onto the other job. whatever else is off the books, we don't know. but yes, it is striking on that point. the other point that i think is interesting as we look at how this is all sinking in, donald trump really hurt himself. one thing you see sometimes i have noticed in both his supporters who have a view of him and his critics who have a rabid view of him. is an overestimation of his abilities. he has played poor hands pretty well. he stumbled his way to an electoral college victory. that did happen. that does not mean that every other time he has had input, it has been great. we heard from mr. cohen with many of you tonight, i want to briefly play some news from donald trump's lawyer who spoke to fox news and said something

that sounds true. it sounds true which is donald trump was very involved in his failed losing defense which led to this unanimous verdict against him today. let's take a listen to todd blanche. >> how involved was donald trump in his own defense? >> what do you think? i mean, very involved. he is a smart guy. he knows what he is doing. he jokingly said to us he wanted to be the litigator. the one that was actually arguing because he is a smart guy and he knows what he is doing. we made every decision together. >> that's unusual, chris. you don't usually make every decision together. because the defendant doesn't have the knowledge of the state court system. criminal law. how to deal with the jury. which things are a priority to the jury or the judge, which aren't, and we saw when discussed at this very table covering the case tonight, we saw the lawyers make many choices that were so adverse to the defendant's interest we said and this is new. but we said it at the time.

that would have to come from something other than just that lawyer's decision. >> i think it is very funny that blanche's reaction was what do you think. and here is why. part of the defense theory of the case was that donald trump was so checked out that this all happened without him managing it. and when asked did he micro manage the case, well, of course. literally, the subject of the defense was he a micro manager who would never know about this. and him saying what do you think is just a very funny thing to say. i think that i agree with you about this overestimation of his ability that happens on both sides of the kind of polarized view of him. i also wonder, there is a sort of in folk tales and mythology, the figure of the trickster who gets away with things and the audience sort of likes the fact the trickster gets away with things. it is true of odysseus in the odyssey.

he trick his way out of stuff. and i do think that like, the donald trump trope of getting out of stuff, getting away with it, is actually part of the narrative appeal of donald trump and i do think that getting caught straight up, not getting away with it. you ran out of your magic tricks here. there is something about that, that is extremely threatening. >> this is a great point. if you read mary trump's book. one of the things that she talks about is the way donald trump has gotten away with it. he has had stronger men than him. his dad. he mass always had men that were his bulldog that would get him out of things. it is not that donald trump got away with things. that he always had someone to

fix it. they were also extremely loyal. michael cohen said he would take a bullet for donald trump. he needs that kind of person. you had people like paul manifort willing to go to jail for him. the problem with donald trump is he allowed his fixer to go to jail. and michael cohen resented it. so he found the one guy willing to take a bullet for him. but then took the bullet and he didn't reward him, help him. take him out of jail, let him do anything but rot. and so, michael cohen wrote a book called revenge. that's what the revenge was for. so here is the lesson for donald trump. you might not want to pull your fixer into the tar pit. because he actually might come back and bite you. and michael cohen is the person that made this case happen.

his testimony before congress opening the door to the tish james. it opened the door to open conversations about his racism. which has now been confirmed in a very amazing slate article. it opened the door to this. so donald trump made a bad choice. >> and none of this would have happened if he hadn't messed with his fixers. if he would have stayed with michael cohen. if michael cohen wouldn't have felt abandoned, we wouldn't be here right now. that's what is extraordinary here. alan weisselberg was willing to go to jail for donald trump because most likely, donald trump is taking care of him. >> he has a severodonetsk renders agreement. >> i will sit in jail for this period of time. he made that deal with donald trump. donald trump did not do that with michael cohen and alas,

michael cohen. >> you raise the point. and i think it is important. that he has an insurance policy around him in the form of strong men and he didn't in this event. and that blanche interview on another cable news station is notable. because trump is involved in his defense intimately and it was not great defense. and i'm not a lawyer, but this position they adopted. trump never slept with stormy daniels. access hollywood wasn't a doomsday event. every campaign is a conspiracy. donald trump is innocent. they just took every argument to the nth degree. all they had to do was prove reasonable doubt. but it was very clear that trump was trying to litigate his sins in the court of public opinion. and that infiltrated their strategy as a defense team to little avail. >> that highlights the difference when it comes to the quality of the lawyering. this was a court of law. i understand the court of public opinion is different.

you have a judge. and that judge will definitely call up someone like todd blanche when he does take an absurd position like he did in this case. when he violated and abused things by saying don't send donald trump to prison which he knew better not to do. and i think that also, the jury watched this so carefully. they watched the choreography. they watched the dance. and the type of person who came to the defense of donald trump. what does it tell you that when you are looking at 34 felonies, the person who comes to your rescue is not todd blanche's paralegal who told the truth and said those are really not the total number of calls. it is bob costello. that's the person who.comes as your character witness and that's a big tell. but the lawyers, the quality of the lawyering did donald trump in. where did it do him in? think about all the other people that have represented him and all the other cases.

he has been losing, losing, losing. >> he has also been guilty. >> and he has not been surrounded by reputable people. he hasn't had top republicans around him. mike johnson is speaker of the house and showed up one day a few days after he got aid for ukraine passed which is the opposite of what donald trump wanted done. his number one person ivanka, jared? no. >> we are supposed to fit in one of our only breaks of the hour. the bob costello, having him as a character witness would be like hypothetically having an indicted murder do your campaign appearances. but you wouldn't do that.

>> well. >> we have a lot coming up. we have our whole panel staying. we have professor melissa murray making her first appearance. so stay with us. appearance. so stay with us. (restaurant noise) [announcer] introducing allison's plaque psoriasis. she thinks her flaky gray patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis.

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donald trump was convicted today on all 34 felony counts he faced. in the case brought by the manhattan da alvin bragg who

spoke about the power of the jury in his remarks tonight. >> the 12 everyday jurors vowed to make a decision based on the evidence and the law, and the evidence of the law alone. their deliberations led them to a unanimous conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt that defended donald trump is guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business records in the first degree to conceal a scheme to corrupt the 2016 election. >> reporter: the da touting the jury for doing its job. the nation now hearing their results. we are joined by nyu law professor melissa murray. she has been a law clerk for justice sonya sotomayer. professor, the meaning of this

verdict, going about its business, coming to an unanimous verdict on all counts. >> it was really again, this was the system at work. we are not like other countries with the judge doing most of the fact finding and making the determinations. we leave this to a jury that looks very much like all of us. people from all walks of life. and alvin bragg credited the jury, credited his team. he could have taken a lot of the credit for this. alvin bragg could have bragged about this and there are a lot of people he could have rubbed this in their faces. there were a lot of nay sayers questioning whether this was the time for this particular case. but he had faith in the indictment. he had faith in the lawyers on

his team and ultimately, he had faith in the jury. >> what does it say about parts of the system that are working? we have an unusual federalist system that divides power and it made this da and his power to pursue this case protecting from federal court, the supreme court which is allied to president trump in an unusually partisan way and other such intervention. >> i want to paint this with rose colored glasses. as alex wagner said this has all happened in the same week where a justice resolutely denied any wrong doing, resolutely refused to step aside though there is a very clear appearance of

impropriety. i think what we can draw from this set of verdicts, we have the divided system. alvin bragg was able to bring a case based on new york law. try it before a juryover new yorkers and get an outcome that new yorkers had one of their own that committed these crimes. it is a verdict that he cannot pardon himself out of if he is successful in november of 2024. this will stand no matter what happens. this will certainly be appealed if he does win the presidency in november of 2024, i will say right now, we will have a genuine constitutional crisis about whether or not a president-elect can actually serve out whatever sentence merchan decides to mete out. this is the beginning of what i think will be a very

interesting ride. and one that may very well end with the constitution being further tested. >> this case was highly criticized because of the risk of a potential hung jury. too complicated for the jury to grasp. does the fact that the jury unanimously voted on all 34 counts, does that prove the nay sayers wrong? >> it proves they may have overstated how difficult this would be for the jury to grasp but the real thing i take for this is of all four of the criminal cases that were brought against donald trump, this one was probably the shakiest and you still had a jury of 12 people say over and over and over again, he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. imagine what might happen if we were able to go to trial on the federal january 6th election interference case? or the mar-a-lago documents case where i think the evidence

would be irrefutable. and you would have the same outcome. the problem is that we are very unlikely to get to a trial in either of those cases before november. >> professor, thank you very much. we return to the panel as part of our special coverage, alex. just to underscore the point i'm making, i'll put it simply. if the supreme court sucks, or is corrupt. >> just to be clear, you are underscoring a point you are making. >> if the supreme court sucks, or is corrupt, then a federalism system is a protection against that corruption. so the point you raise, the worse the supreme court is, the more you want that protection and distance. that is what functioned here and why you have said this is the only trial that is probably

finishing by election. >> the supreme court's work on this may not be done. we are awaiting the rule on immunity question. on whether president trump is immune from all criminal prosecution forever more. that will have an effect on this. we have not paid enough attention to what professor murray has outlined there. if donald trump wins, there is very, there is almost no scenario in which if he is assigned jail time, he will serve that before the election. but if he wins, and is assigned jail time in this, loses on appeal, it is a stress test for the constitution like nothing we have ever seen before. >> just to walk down that road. because melissa murray opened the door. but she is right. first of all, i think we were doing a little research on other people that have been prosecuted and found guilty of this and there is a range. it would not be at all a special favor for him to not

get any prison time. that would be a perfectly legitimate sentence within the bounds of what other people would face. it would also not be outrageous for him to receive prison time. there is just zero constitutional road map. it is the case that you can run for office, there is no bar on running for office. we do have a federalist system. yeah, you can't put the sitting president in jail. i don't think that is going to happen. maybe i'm wrong. but there is no case law here. and there is no resolved constitutional question. if the man in the white house having been convicted in a local court in new york of 34 felony counts, having appealed his conviction and having that

appeal conviction upheld through multiple courts, is now duly sentenced with the sentence. to some form of confinement. maybe he has an ankle bracelet on in the white house? i don't know. it is just an unresolved question. there is no, we don't know what any of that is. >> i do wonder, katie, ari, what you think bragg in that press conference we had was reluctant to say anything about whether they were going to request in terms of sentencing. some were reading that his silence on that to suggest he will be aggressive. i don't know if you had a thought about his appetite. >> and you may be able to do home confinement in the white house. >> white house arrest. >> i will sigh this and katie can join. this is a reminder that these

are the problems it brings. as katie knows, this kind of offense for a first time offender often doesn't carry jail sentence. but as others have emphasized, there are other aggravating factors including how often he was held in contempt and whether they want to go for more. and they could. they are allowed to consider practical conditions. just like if you have a situation where a mother and a father are both convicted and you think about whether to orphan the children or not. it is a practical consideration. not a legal one. they could say we want a month home confinement and we want to get it it done before november. there are things they could practically consider with a reasonable judge. >> so, the reason why bragg didn't want to make a commitment, he has done something before during the course of the trial. when he didn't ask for jail with the repeated gag order

violations because that was available to the court. you can do up to 30 days in jail. or a thousand dollar fine or a combination of both. a lot of us thought it was escalating to the point where he was going to ask for jail. but every single time his office didn't ask for it. there is an actual process. donald trump has to sit with the probation officer and be evaluated for a presentence investigation report. a psi. this former president of the united states like every criminal defendant who gets convicted will sit down with a guy or a woman from probation and he will go through all of the evaluation and the factor to be considered and a report will be generated and presented to the prosecution and the defense. and then on the 11th which is the sentencing hearing, there will be a presentation by both sides. the prosecution will ask for what it wants, the defense will say what it thinks it deserves and there will be that report that the court is going to be giving due deference to. that is what the people do for

a living. this is how the process goes. he is not president trump. he is defendant trump. what if the probation offer comes back and says this guy has to go to jail? what is he looking for in this interview? >> so they do an investigation of your childhood. and your upbringing and your education. and your jobs. and are you a criminal. the fact he has two pending federal indictments and a pending state court indictment is a big tell that maybe you are prone to violating the law. >> and violated the gag order multiple times. i have a similar question as to whether or not because the one thing donald trump's lawyers have been good at is delay. because i expect in our near futures we will be talking about donald trump attempting a lawsuit that says you cannot

jail the president of the united states. i wouldn't expect him to simply comply if he wins the election, somehow he wins the election. and then, his sentence is upheld in new york, that will be litigation. and the people will decide that, will probably be the supreme court. including samuel alito who will not recuse. and he and justice clarence thomas whose life along with martha anne are willing to do the most to keep donald trump in power. will be the deciders. so, yes, we have a federalist system that gives new york protection for its system of jurisprudence. but donald trump will challenge that. and so the question becomes now we are in a completely unknown territory of law because we have never had a president who is a felon. >> if he is elected president, and this outstanding constitutional question about what becomes of the sentence will be resolved by the supreme

court. there is no question. >> we know how they will resolve it we know they will rule in his favor. >> but they have a chance to resolve in a couple of weeks. >> though not on this issue. >> to send the message of what they think about the immunity afforded him. they will definitely have that opportunity. >> in fairness, it's a distinct legal issue. the way the case is postured, this case deals with prepresidential acts. >> except for the checks he signed in the white house. >> the it begin ins 2015. it predates the idea. >> you proved a point. just like we have seen with everything that is going on. >> we know how they would rule. >> we are all familiar with the fact you can do appeals but i'm drawing a very important distinction.

we have to see what happens. katie is right when you have meetings with the po, probation officer. one of the first questions is, you have any other cases? i'm trying to run them out. we are supposed to fit in a break. >> when they talk about the three upcoming cases, what about the things he has been found guilty of? understating and overstating the real estate value. none of this has any bearing. all of those past things. they are non-issue? >> they are. but they are civil cases, and not criminal. they are not fond of the law. >> one of the civil cases. >> and that again goes back to how we as a society understand

this. and for the people who like to say, allegedly, i don't know. we will see. we are supposed to get to a break. alex wagner mentioned po stands for probation officer. >> got it. >> yes. eyeball. and if my po calls, tell him i'm just slaying in dry wall. he has a legitimate job. >> that's during the break. >> really? >> good. >> we have the power panel on a big day and we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

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welcome back to our special coverage in new york versus donald trump, the verdict arriving today. trump guilty on all 34 felony counts. our full panel is here as we have been processing all of this breaking news. joy, it is easy even for something that happened late in the day for all of us and for other people to start moving on and what's next and then the sentencing and then this. i was just curious to reflect on -- for someone who has run and skate sod many times -- >> yeah. >> -- what it means to see a jury of his peers catch him and convict him. >> donald trump built a legend in the state of new york and the

city of new york. his whole dream was to be respected in manhattan. and it was in manhattan where he was brought low. i think there's something interesting and poetic about that, but also there's a loneliness to donald trump. we were chatting about it in the break. he faced proobly his greatest humiliation today without his family. they, you know, i'm not sure if any of them were in the courthouse when he was found guilty. and as he's hearing -- i'm thinking 34 count, he's hearing them over and over. they were so dramatic for us to hear. he heard those by himself. he might be the loneliest man in the world. >> we also have not heard from melania, which again, that's her right to not say anything publicly. there is an expectation that gets placed on the spouses of political figures to be in the political arena, but it is a striking thing. i mean, i -- having covered, again, i feel like i have covered a lot of -- when i was a younger reporter, i was in chicago, a lot of politicians on trial -- it is part of being a

politician in the crosshairs that you are there with your family and with your spouse. it's a sort of -- and partly, i think at a human level that you have -- it's not just you alone. you're facing it. i completely understand. can't speak to the internal psychology of melania trump about this, but it is notable that there's been nothing. there's been no statement from her. there's been no appearance. she chose not to come to court. and that's just a striking fact. >> and i would add that not as a punch line but -- >> no -- >> -- but as a fact i will add that one of the failed dens was everything he was doing was for her, this absentee figure. maybe it wasn't for her. >> well, right. i was just going to make that same point. her name was invoked at this sort of -- that was the explanation for all of it. to not see her in court, to not have a single message or misive from melania land in the course of all of this, for her to not be there in this moment tells you a lot about this line of defense. >> then go back to the one and only positive thing that hillary

clinton ever said about donald trump when they were in a debate. she said they have a very close family. remember when they were debating -- >> she had to come up with something. >> she had to come up with something nice to say about the other one. she complimented their tight knit family and where were they? where was melania. ivanka, i said it before, she is his numero uno. they were his senior advisors in the white house. they were not in the courthouse not one single day. that's cold. >> we should say that ivanka trump has posted a message of support. i don't know if we have the graphic of the picture of her and her father that says i love you dad. it was on stories, not on the grid. that'll be up for 24 hours. >> the people that did show up for him, i caught that -- >> yes. >> it's temporary. >> just noting it. i'm just noting it. >> what's notable are the people that did show up. it was trump surrogates in the form of goppers and campaign people. and when this case is about you want to influence the outcome of

a campaign or an election, and those are the only people ethat come and support you, the jury saw that. the jury saw these people walking in, the red tie brigade, every day a different group of some, you know, gop support. and that was it. it wasn't family. >> we did see eric and don jr. like one day. thinkty two of them came one day. and tiffany once. >> they were in there. >> well, anyway, the point is, the main people that were there were the political people, and they were the campaign people. and that's exactly what the jury -- the jury watches everything when they're in this courtroom. they really do. >> the jurors -- i was going back over -- you said this before, katie, about this sort of -- and this has been a theme for the trump years and particularly through the last year of legal coverage, the difference between the court of public opinion and actual court. >> sure. >> even at a kind of basic method level -- public discourse as guided by our free speech than they do in a court of law, but one of the jurors said his

number one source of news was truth social. >> yeah. >> going in. and that juror was one of the unanimous 12 who said he's guilty on all 34 counts. >> it's a great point. it speaks to the transparency in this process that we know these things going out. we know what the jury has decided. we're approaching the midnight hour here on may 30, 2024 on the east coast, the day that the united states for the first time ever watched a jury convict a former president of a crime, in this case, 34 counts of a felony in new york. our special coverage continues with jen psaki after this break. with jen psaki after this break. introducing, ned's plaque psoriasis. he thinks his flaky red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. otezla can help you get clearer skin. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection

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