president or other members of the administration really get out ahead of any of the cease fire proposals, release proposals that have been on the table before. there have been several instances in the past where we knew that there was a deal that was being considered by one side or the other, and typically, the white house, the administration has said, we're not going to get ahead of the process. we're not going to get ahead of the deal. we're not going to lay out details. we typically have gotten details from sources here in the states and in the middle east, and in this instance, we saw a deal that seems to have come together very recently that was handed over to hamas, and the president of the united states himself, upon returning to the white house from spending time at his home in rehoboth beach, delaware, and visiting his son's grave yesterday, he made his first stop before the cameras to announce the details of this deal, something that has been as we've said, a priority for the administration, an issue, a problem that has plagd the

-- plagued the president in lots of different ways. we're going to see what happens next here. there was a delegation of diplomats set to meet with the national security adviser today, this afternoon, to talk about the hostages that are from their countries. we also know that there was a delegation slated to go to the middle east next week as well to engage in some more talks and conversations around a deal coming together, and so the administration still has this very robust presence in trying to make this happen, and we'll be looking to see whether there's a response to any degree from hamas in the days to come. >> aaron gilchrist, thank you for that. claire mccaskill, i want to go to you. i want to talk about the president's statements, they were forceful but brief on donald trump's trial and conviction. you spent many years in the senate. if i'm remembering correctly, you were on the armed services committee, homeland security committee.

this is an area of the world that you know well. and that you legislated in and around, and i just want to get your take on what we heard from the president in that regard. >> well, this was bold for him to announce this before it came from israel. it was a bold move. and assuming that he would never do this without israel signing off on it, i think this is a big win for him. assuming that when the sun goes down tomorrow in israel netanyahu backs him up and says this is what we have agreed to, if this cease fire happens, and if the hostages are returned, and if the u.s. remains involved in terms of keeping the peace and rebuilding gaza, this is a huge headache that maybe joe biden just took some serious advil or tylenol or headache

medicine for, if this actually comes to pass, and i think it is a big deal for his campaign, if in fact this deal happens. as to the trump trial, i think he did exactly what he should do. he went after the dangerous precedent that trump and his supporters are engaging in, which is to tear down the institution that protects every american under the institution, and that is our rule of law, and i thought he did a good job of that. didn't dwell on trump's conduct but rather the very dangerous thing the republican party is doing, which is tearing apart the institution that protects everyone. >> and this is the first time that he's spoken out. he has been very careful not to speak during the trial, but for him to come out so forcefully, to do it before his middle east comments, not waiting for a question, as we assumed, we all assumed he would do it as an add

on. to come out and say, no man is above the law. donald trump was given every opportunity to defend himself and was defended and he had a jury of 12 american citizens, just like you, men and women, you know, and in fact, he had choices, and in fact, we pointed out they only used one peremptory challenge on the jury. >> there was a line, that's how the system works. he went before a jury of his peers. he could have testified if he wanted to. there were five weeks of evidence. it was a unanimous verdict and he can appeal, this is who we are, he said. >> yeah, it was necessary for him to do it. you could imagine a situation, i'm going to be above this, i'm going to focus on the israel deal. he needed to do both. obviously the israel issue is going to have huge ramifications on this election and the region. he had to speak clearly about how this was dangerous, reckless, irresponsible, the way republicans are acting.

>> has the ship sailed on the president and israel on the people so firmly against the war and call him genocide joe. are they ever going to come back? does he need those people and is there an acknowledgment that a president trump, a renewed president trump wouldn't be better, would in fact, probably be worse given the positions that he has taken on israel and on settlements and moving the embassy to jerusalem. >> speaking crassly and politically, these two issues are tied together for him. he has to make a negative case against donald trump, president biden does. that's how he can win some of these people back. he has a coalition that ranges from people that have a nikki haley level view, that want to level gaza, to people who think joe biden is committing genocide. all of those people need to vote for joe biden for him to win this year. in order to do that, he can't win by a positive israel solution. it has to be a negative case against donald trump. >> another netanyahu speech to a

joint meeting of congress, having been invited by the speaker, and chuck schumer has signed on to it. this is not something the white house welcomes at all. we know what happened during the obama years, and he used that platform to campaign against the white house and the iran nuclear deal. this is a preemptive action against netanyahu, especially with netanyahu listening, as katy was saying, to his right wing coalition members who do control his -- >> his political fate and criminal fate as well. because he's facing -- >> an analogy as well. >> come to go a head at the time that there's going to be a debate. >> oh, that. >> i was going to say, a couple of weeks, and when he's going to get sentenced in that too. >> peter, claire, tim, thank you so much. a lot of breaking news. up next in the wake of president biden's comments, we're going to dig into the big questions about what exactly this guilty verdict means

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we are back with our special coverage, and just moments ago, president biden weighed in for the first time on donald trump's guilty verdict.

>> it's reckless, it's dangerous, it's irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict. our justice system has endured for nearly 250 years, and it literally is the corner stone of america. our justice system. the justice system should be respected. and we should never allow anyone to tear it down. it's as simple as that. that's america. that's who we are. and that's who we'll always be, god willing. >> now, there are three huge questions at the center of everything that we're talking about in terms of the trial today. how will donald trump's verdict inform the political process moving forward. will it change his approach to his legal future, three more criminal cases, plus the sentencing in this one, and the personal impact on the former president. and, katy, you and i were talking about this. in some ways it's all tied together, how his move could

impact how he approaches both the politics and the court cases. >> yeah, but the apparatus, as i argue is there bolstering him, pushing forward with the plan no matter what. we all three spent time inside that courtroom watching the first criminal trial of a former president, now the first former president, president period, to be convicted of multiple felonies. but the verdict is in the end, we are still many months away from the election, and donald trump is saying that the vote is going to be the election or the vote is going to be the verdict. >> it's been a long hour. >> the real verdict is coming up in the vote. >> november 5th. >> this is sentencing, by the way, which is just a few days before the rnc convention. >> and joining us now are two people who spent even more time inside that courthouse. andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, former senior member of the mueller probe and an msnbc legal analyst, and

msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin. so, andrew, first to you. take it 30,000 feet view of all of this. what does this verdict, what we've seen for the last six plus weeks, seven weeks now, the verdict, the response, we've now heard a response from donald trump and president biden. these are the two candidates. that's not going to change. what does that tell you about where we are as a country, and the respect for law, and what are the danger zones ahead? >> so the hard part of this is that all of us at this table saw the trial. we were there. we witnessed it. we could see who was called as a witness. we saw the cross-examination, the witnesses were in large part, allies of donald trump. it was david pecker who was not really cross examined and called

a liar by donald trump. one of the witnesses who was the leadoff witness, one of the most damaging witnesses. one of only two witnesses, the jury said we would like a read back. that is somebody aligned with donald trump, and at no point during the lengthy defense summation did they say david pecker is a liar. they don't believe him. and yet, they don't like the result, and suddenly, first we went from, you know, the election was rigged, now the trial is rigged. i'm reminded of when hillary clinton said, you know, when he didn't get an emmy, the emmys are rigged. if you lose, it's rigged. if you win, it's fair. it's just the same light motif, again, and again. but what's hard is that we were all there, and so we know, in fact, that the judge was fair. we know that the witnesses were, as they should be, had to testify on direct and be subject to lengthy cross-examination, and this is a jury decision of

12 new yorkers where donald trump used to live and lived for many many years, so it's certainly his peers. >> the seriousness. we all saw it. when they came in on the last day for the jury instruction, and i was in there, didn't look at donald trump. looked straight ahead. looked at the entire time, either looked at juan merchan or were taking notes. there was a sense of seriousness of purpose. no distraction. no looking around. this was, it seemed to me, almost a lesson of the power of the people that 12 ordinary manhattanites, and donald trump doesn't think they're ordinary, he thinks they came in against him. but 12 people who gave up their days and weeks and privacy now because they believe in the system. >> yeah, and you know who else believes in the system or at

least he believes in the system a few days ago is todd blanche who opened his summation by exalting the power of the jury, starting by thanking them for their time and their attention and then reminding them that the decider ultimately of the facts in the case was not the judge or a group of judges but them. and yet last night, there he is on the cnn saying that always it was clear to him that his client was never going to get a fair trial. and when he was pressed on that by the host of the program, he ultimately said what was unfair about it was the veneer, meaning where the trial was situated here in manhattan. not anything wrong with those 12 particular jurors. he still can't bring himself to criticize those 12 particular people. he won't criticize the process. it's just there's something fundamentally about the water in the city, apparently, that doesn't suit them. >> he seemed to be blaming his client. we had all inferred with a lot of reason to do that that donald trump was influencing the way

his defense was organized, decisions that were made. robert costello being put on the stand, which was clearly a big mistake, and he said that himself in an interview, which, i thought was strange, and it was an interview on fox, to suggest that, well, that was the defendant's fault. he's the lawyer. i don't know how much longer, katy, you referred to this earlier, as they head down to florida, because they have some pretrial hearings before judge cannon on the mar-a-lago documents case, how much longer he will be the lawyer. >> alina habba is still his lawyer and she helped lose him half a billion dollars. answer that, lisa. >> look, i think todd was in between a rock and a hard place in answering that question because of who his particular client is. if he takes ownership of all of those decisions, you also have on the other side, as your client, somebody who was famously micro managerial who has a fragile ego, who wants to be entrusted with the decisions

in the case, and of course, ethically, your client is allowed to direct their defense, and so i feel for him in that moment because had he taken it all on himself, not only is that probably inaccurate, but he also may have faced greater client complaints. what do you mean you made the decisions yourself. i'm the master mind and that's a client that believes the defense is the right one. i don't share that opinion. i think that's donald trump's genuine one. >> the thing that struck me, andrew and lisa, was him saying he was gagged, therefore he didn't testify. he seemed to conflate things. he was given the chance. it was made clear, the judge, in fact, in open court made sure he agreed with that, and he nodded. >> absolutely. he made that comment early on. the judge in court corrected him, and donald trump, as he's the to do at the end of court dates said that. this was just going back to, i mean, this is like facts don't

matter. this is really earth 2. just so everybody understands that donald trump had a right to testify. it was stressed by the judge that he could have hopped on the stand and testified any day of the week, and it was his choice not to do that. so just to be clear, at trial, he has an absolute right not to testify. what he doesn't have a right to do is say outside of court, oh, i didn't have an opportunity to do that. he had an opportunity to testify. he had an opportunity to cross examine david pecker. he had an opportunity to cross examine hope hicks. both of those witnesses provided devastating evidence. they were not cross examined to say that they were lying. there was a choice he made, and so now to say don't believe the process, these were in many ways his allies giving the most damming evidence. >> we talked about the other day, i called this a novel case. you said it wasn't a novel case.

elie honig, former federal prosecutor, he argued in new york magazine that this was really a bespoke case, that these charges were tailored for one particular defendant, and that was donald trump. he talked about how the judge gave a small amount of money to a democratic group, but that still is against the rules. he shouldn't have done it. he talked about how district attorney alvin bragg ran in some ways as a man who would go after donald trump. he understands the arguments that donald trump and his team are making that this was not fair. when you went through this elie honig argument about how this case could be ripe for appeal, and the way that it was tailored to donald trump, what's your opinion on that? how do you see it, andrew? >> i think this is fair. it's useful to go through these -- i'm really happy you're raising them. let me give you quick responses that you would hear. first, on the money, there's no question that juan merchan, i

mean, we're talking about -- >> $34, very small. >> it is diminutive. he said there's no reason to get off the case for that. >> they being the ethics panel. >> and he was randomly chosen for the case the way aileen cannon was in florida. >> absolutely. and all of us were in that courtroom. does anyone -- i mean, we were saying this before we knew what the verdict was that this was a fair process. we were making sure that all of our viewers knew in case this was an acquittal that this was a fair process. so it happens to have been a conviction. >> what about the charges and the way that they elevated it from misdemeanor to a felony? >> sure. so with respect to -- can i just do the bragg comment. >> go ahead. >> because that's simply not the case. it is missing the number one thing that the d.a. did when he took office, which is to say, i am not bringing this case.

it is not ready. and he took enormous flak, and now, you know what, he has a right to sort of -- he had a right to say, i told you so at that press conference, and he didn't. he took the high road. this is a man who, what you see what you get. this is somebody who's the real deal. when the case wasn't ready, he said no. that is the clear factual response to that question. >> i want to ask youquickly about alvin bragg, he made a choice not to do any interviews. he made a statement. he didn't take any questions, unlike the defense attorney who was on multiple networks, answered lots of questions. i wonder what you think is happening there. >> i think they have different roles. and i think that the prosecutor without, you know, i would say, is much more in the sort of jack smith, bob mueller mode of i'm going to speak in court. and even though he had a right

to, and they said you know what, this is an ongoing process, and i'm not going to do it. >> can we go to the last part. >> good. thanks. >> i'm really interested in the answer. >> it's like oral argument, where you always have to come back. but answer my question. so i don't really understand the idea of saying something is tailor made. i have been a prosecutor for 21 years. every single charge is tailor made to the facts that are presented. so, you know, there was a rico charge against the head of the family that's tailor made. there are charges against ken lane, the heads of enron, that's tailor made. the issue is not tailor made. the issue is are these charges that would be brought against anyone regardless of what name they have. did it matter that it was donald trump or joe blow. and there alvin bragg's response to that was every day of the week we use false business

records as a crime. yes, we use all sorts of things to bump it up to be a felony. if they have an intent to further or conceal some other crime. so to say, well, you picked the crimes or the facts alleged is, well, that's right, but we were talking about this today in our podcast, which is when you think about the routine way in which a false business record case would be brought, it would be let's say you worked at a company and you embezzled money, and you covered it up by creating fake records. the charge would be false business records, and you covered it up for your stealing. that's a relatively -- it's not a good thing to do. that's a relatively low crime. when you compare it to, okay, you had false business records, and it was in connection with a scheme to interfere illegally with the 2016 presidential election.

can you honestly say, oh, yes, it's tailor made, but it's unfair. of course it's tailor made, but it's not unfair. in fact, you would say, my god if you do it in the lower case, isn't it unfair if you didn't do it here? in other words, many people think about this as a selective prosecution. i would argue to not have charged this would have been selective nonprosecution. >> this is why i'm so happy you answered the question. it was an interesting argument. elie honig was making. i was interested to hear what your opinion was. >> lisa rubin mentioned in last night in regard to alvin brag not -- alvin bragg not going public. you mentioned donald trump was out there speaking, they couldn't leave the courtroom, they were still there, the discipline of the prosecutors in the d.a.'s office to not smile, not gloat, not cheer. >> look, there was no hand shakes, there was nothing. no reaction. >> not even like a very small,

we did it sort of gesture exchanged between in and among them. i will say, and andrew knows this better than anyone, that is what good prosecutors always do, you know, if you walked into any courtroom, you would see that. but it was still notable and striking, particularly contrasted with how trump's people acted. >> and given how significant the case was. lisa rubin, andrew weissmann, thank you very much. coming up next, two retired new york judges who know all about the process around a sentencing are standing by to tell us what donald trump is about to go through. stay close, our coverage continues right after this very quick break. is very quick break. pray. it removes 99% of grease and grime in half the time. dawn powerwash has 3 cleaning boosters not found in traditional dish soaps that remove food and grease 5 times faster. and, because it cleans so well you can replace multiple cleaning products for counters, stoves, and even laundry stains.

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donald trump is now entering a dramatic and different kind of waiting game. in just 41 days, he will be back at the courthouse here in new york for his sentencing hearing. before that, he'll be required to report to the 10th floor for an interview at the department of probation office where he will answer questions about his background, his mental health and the circumstances of his case to help compile a report. it's a process some lawyers describe to the "washington post" as humbling. one white collar criminal defense attorney told the paper, quote, if you think the courtroom is dingy, just wait until you go to the probation officer. i want to bring in retired new york state supreme court judge

jill konviser, and diane, you know the process well. before july 11th, donald trump gives that interview, and then what happens to that information? how is it used? >> that information gets put into a file that is confidential, that is given to the defense lawyer, the prosecutor, and the judge. and that is part of an entire picture of the defendant that the judge gets to see and rely upon during sentencing. >> and that includes, right, the defense and prosecution making arguments, essentially, to the judge about what they think the appropriate sentence would be. here's what both sides have said so far, just in the last several hours, let's take a listen. >> putting aside the fact he was president of the united states, the conduct that we're talking about is seven, eight years old. nine years old. he's a grandfather, a husband, a father. he should not go to prison.

i don't know what the district attorney is going to do. >> do you plan to request a prison sentence, donald trump's multiple violations of the gag order in place, factor in? >> the judge scheduled a sentencing for july 11th. we will speak in court at that time. >> no surprise on either of those counts. what does the judge use to weigh, obviously, do those two arguments weigh heavily? how much does the trial transcript, how much might, for example, the fact that he got into some trouble with the judge for breaking the gag order ten times. >> everything is on the table when it comes to sentencing. it is a look at donald trump's entire life. it's a look at any bad acts he's ever committed. even things that were not presented at trial. >> so e. jean carroll. >> e. jean carroll can come into

the picture. i think the way in which he has ripped apart the criminal justice system every single day he's been on trial here, the judge can consider all of it. in addition, i assume there will be a lot of letters sent to the court because that happens all the time with regular defendants or non-famous defendants, if you will, in which people will say, he's, you know, the savior of our country. he's a wonderful man. other people will say he tried to tear apart democracy when he left office, so all of that comes into play. >> jill, what about other extraneous issues, the fact that he is a candidate running for office? i mean, they can decide -- with sentencing, they can decide when to impose the sentence if it can be delayed in july, or suspended pending the appeal. how much does all of that, the political context, and you have a judge who despite all of the

these attacks, has tried to ignore them to the extent possible, has been very calm and modestly mannered in the courtroom, how personal can he be when he makes the ultimate decision after the recommendation as to what the sentence is? >> i'll say a few things. first of all, if you think pro -- probation is dingy, you should see what rikers island looks like. i have been there a number of times. sentencing is something that's very broad and vast. there are no rules or guidelines. you take in anything that is relevant about a defendant's particular background and life. that would include that with which you're asking. i don't know that the judge should say i'm going to postpone this indefinitely. the defendant has a constitutional right to a speedy sentence, and if he isn't sentenced, you'll probably hear that argument that it wasn't timely. he certainly does have the right

to take everything into consideration. i certainly think he can and will take into consideration the way he has handled the system and his press conferences, the things he said today. if i were his lawyer, i would tell him to stand down. i don't know if he listens to his lawyer but that's what i would do. >> todd blanche was on with the "today" show and said donald trump had every right to, and it was a good strategy to rail against the process, and he would not go and tell him to pull back in any way. >> i would say that's a big mistake. sentencing is the one time you as a judge get an opportunity to say, who is this person in front of me, has he been remorseful, has he shown some respect. he has done none of those things. i would consider that. >> allen weisselberg is serving time in jail. donald trump called him a good man. said it was totally unfair. take away the fact that donald trump is the former president of the united states, and taking that out of the equation, what's the difference between what allen weisselberg did and what donald trump did, because allen

weisselberg has served time? >> well, yes, he has. they were similarly situated defendants there, coconspirators, if you will. that's where sentencing comes in. you look at who the person is. you're looking at allen weisselberg, he didn't go to trial. he took a plea. the judge who has now sat through an entire trial and has a chance to observe the defendant in the manner in which he's handled this, which is quite frankly, un-american, and tear down the institutions, that's something he could consider. that wasn't what he had with weisselberg. >> do you think a nonviolent first offender would still get a possible jail sentence? >> also one who has never suggested remorse, which is something we often see. >> has not been remorseful. and allen weisselberg has served time. would you recommend jail? >> that's a fair question and

i'm going to tell you there's balancing in every decision the judge makes. the balance will be here too. the judge in this case has to look at this defendant. sure, he will look at what happened with the others, but they're not exactly situated the same and so would i consider jail, yes, i think the law requires me to consider jail. nonjail, fine, conditional discharge, unconditional discharge, intermittent sentence, which is weekends, probation, split seasons with probation or state prison. those are all things that are on the table. >> can't go golfing this weekend, got to go to jail. >> absolutely. i'm glad i'm not juan merchan for the next six weeks. it's a terrible, tough decision, and just like the world's been watching him for all of these many months, the world is going to be watching what he does here, and i think he's going to be widely criticized from one side or another no matter what he does. >> sentencing is the hardest thing for a judge in any case. this one, yes, in every single

case. this is no different. judge merchan has done this, has sentenced defendants for 15 years with grace and a plum constitutionally. he will do it again in this case. >> we will never know how many nights of sleep he loses in the process. tough decision. diane keisel, jill konviser, thank you so much throughout this trial. it's been great having you both. the legal lightning bolt in manhattan is spiking a massive fundraising windfall, and the trump conviction setting off a count down for his future and possibly his freedom. will trump's top lawyer remain by his side when sentencing comes down. by his side when sentencing comes down be hard, even with . diets and exercise add to the struggle. today, it's possible to go from struggle to cholesterol success with leqvio. with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by 50% and keep it low with 2 doses a year. common side effects were injection site reaction, joint pain, and chest cold.

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- [narrator] we're coming together for our yearly service project indulge. and running a t-shirt fundraiser through custom ink to help the cause. plus, their design services team helped us get a design we love. come together for a cause. get started today at customink.com. moments after his conviction, former president donald trump said the real verdict is going to be november 5th by the people. that's what that quote was. and so far his base of supporters have put their money behind him. according to the trump campaign, they raised a record breaking

windfall of cash after trump's guilty verdict, $34 million. joining us now is stephanie ruhle, nbc's senior business analyst and the host of the 11th hour, and also with us, david jolly, a former republican congressman, no longer affiliated with the gop. where is this money coming from? >> i spent last night, as soon as the verdict came, on the horn, calling all different sort of gop donors, wall street guys who give big. and remember, it was about a year and a half ago, so many were getting excited about ron desantis, they loved nikki haley, but in the last month, they're getting closer and closer to trump. let's be honest, they were going to vote for them anyway, but they know, donald trump is 100% transactional. he is down right now, and he is humiliated. he keeps track of exactly who stands with him and how long they have stood with him. they know, you back trump right now, he wins, you got a direct line into the white house. wait a minute, let's talk about joe biden's policies, look at the stock market, look at what

he's done for evs, shouldn't a guy like elon musk like him? for them, it's about absolute power and controlling the rules, and if you believe that the person who could be in the white house is going to basically give you a get out of jail free card, you're going to back him. and it's extraordinary, that's what's happening. >> he flipped on tiktok. the biggest backer. >> correct. the richest guy in the state of pennsylvania, one of the largest owners of tiktok, and trump flipped. two weeks ago he met with oil executives, harold ham put it together, give me a billion dollars, tell me what you want. if that isn't an ultimate gift to them, and so yes, they are puts pay for principles. we're talking about the most successful guys on wall street. isn't it amazing for them. not just they're going to get corporate tax cuts extended, they will get a free pass. >> trump piece bread and butter has been the base. he has been remarkable at fundraising and the e-mails, and

i want to break down some numbers here david, $34 million, almost $35 million according to the trump campaign just since the verdict came in, and i think it's worth remembering that i think it was the biggest one-day haul for joe biden was across the street at radio city music hall, $26 million. the campaign made a lot of the fact after the state of the union which went much better than people anticipated it might. 10 million. 26 million, and 34, almost 35 million in one day when read, which is the republican fundraising arm said it crashed. having said that, according to the biden center. >> brennan center. >> he's almost spent $100 million so far on legal bills, so give us the big picture as you see it, david, on this fundraising. >> yeah, look, i think the pig -- big picture is there.

i think it's important that we correct the president's words. when he says the real verdict will be in november. yesterday was a real verdict, and nothing that happens in november changes that real verdict. maybe on appeal it gets changed but that verdict yesterday was real. he is an adjudicated criminal. >> but not for those donors, he was putting a call out, saying this was an illegitimate. >> they were going to give him money, win, lose or draw, and trump's team got cute because they needed a win last night. yesterday is an unprecedented, humiliating, devastating loss, and they searched and searched for a positive headline, and this is how they bought themselves one. >> as you're saying, they don't need to be bought a positive headline they're being give it by wall street. >> because these guys are buying themselves a treat if trump wins. >> biden and harris also put out a fundraising appeal. look, they say they got 34 million, contribute to us. everybody is in this.

>> it's a vicious cycle, i think you would call it. david, jump in. >> what donald trump has successfully done is conflated the judicial decision with the political decision he wants in november. but voters are motivated either by intensity or by persuasion, and what you are seeing in very realtime with the increase in donations to donald trump is a renewed intensity. those donors that stephanie talked about already going to vote for donald trump, but now they are acting with greater intensity, his base is fired up. are those new voters for donald trump? i don't know that they are. but in the persuadable camp, i think you have a lot of the voters, that mythical nikki haley voter, they look at this and say do i want an adjudicated criminal, they might not be donating but they're paying attention to this. in '18 and '20, donald trump's immigration policies or reproductive freedom or his own alleged criminality or january 6th, we saw a lot of intensity in the last 24 hours by trump voters, but i don't think we should overlook those persuadable voters who have said

every time they see donald trump's criminality, they say, i just can't be there for him, those are the voters that joe biden is hoping show up for him in november. >> david jolly, stephanie ruhle, it is great to have both of you here. catch stephanie tonight and every weeknight on the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle and 11:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. >> featuring katy tur tonight. >> wow, the power couple. we won't miss that. the key question after donald trump's historic conviction is how it will impact of course the 2024 race, not only at the top of the ticket but very importantly on the down ballot races. before the verdict came out. polling of the battle ground states, a mixed message for both parties. the presidential race remains very tight within the margin of error in all but two states, nevada and north carolina where trump is leading. in the down ballot races, under

performing, in nevada, and wisconsin. trump is over performing republican candidates in those states. shaquille brewster is in kenosha county, wisconsin. chuck todd is here as well. nbc news chief political analyst, and so, chuck, i want to start with you. how do democrats in red states and republicans in blue states address this verdict? i was thinking, of course, immediately, not surprisingly for people like jon tester, critical to the democratic majority, so is sherrod brown in ohio, where trump remains very very popular. >> right. >> yeah, look, i think i have a basic thesis on this. whoever is talking about this is losing, right? whether you're trump, biden or a candidate down the ballot. voters expect you to look forward and to talk about their issues. you're talking about somebody else's issues. you're not talking about their issues. i will say this, i think it was -- i have been intrigued by

the distinction of reactions of republican senate candidates. while they have universally condemned the verdict, there has been a distinction between those that are a bit more trump or maga, if you want to refer to that, might as well have been trump's language, and a guy like david mccormick, who used his release, faried zacharia. he was critical of the decision to bring the case, but he didn't attack the judge. didn't attack the rule of law like he was trying, you could tell he knows his swing voter is that suburban republican that might not vote for trump, right? so i think it's been -- it's a very risky strategy of all of these republican senate candidates in the swing states to hug trump as tightly as they did after this. but i understand the math problem that they have. look at what larry hogan did, right? he went the other way, and basically the chief strategist

for the trump campaign said your campaign is over, sending the signal to the maga base, don't support hogan and at the end of the day, you can't win without the swing voters, but you can't win without the trump base either. right, and so i don't know if it's a tight rope that's walkable for some candidates. i think a shehee can do it because there's enough maga to win. it's a riskier strategy for david mccormicks or sam browns, for instance, in nevada. >> and, chuck, i wanted to ask you about just where does bill cassidy come from. i know you have interviewed him many times. surprised by him coming out so quickly, not so surprised by mitch mcconnell who sees, you know, the senate, you know, on balance here, but some of the knee jerk reactions were really pretty surprising. the party is just completely donald trump's party, and it didn't take him 20 minutes. >> are you surprised, andrea, or did all of these republicans

learn a certain lesson after the "access hollywood" tape. remember, after the "access hollywood" tape, most republicans fled him. including people like mike lee, you know, i'm old enough to remember when mike lee was a trump critic. a lot of them fled him. i was just at a conference where i saw paul ryan, and we were talking about that moment, right, and then the moment he had to suddenly work with a guy he refused to endorse. and so if you're an elected republican now, and you ask yourself, what do you do, you look at that "access hollywood" moment and politically you see no choice to find a way to be on trump's side. notice what mitch mcconnell did. this case, you know, it shouldn't have been brought. probably should have went on appeal. for mcconnell, he would argue he was being responsible, meaning he's being as responsible as he can while still trying to be politically relevant in the

republican party. he didn't want to totally be alienated from donors and all of those things. i know why they did it. i think it's risky long-term, but i understand the short-term decision. >> and larry hogan took a chance because it's better for him. >> it's the only way he wins. >> it's the only way he can win in maryland, and he got hit over the head by it. >> you brought up senator mike lee of utah. that's my favorite example, the crying selfie, where he said he could never possibly get behind a man who said such things after the "access hollywood" tape. shaq, let's talk to you, and forget these republican lawmakers and politicians, let's talk about the voters. what are they telling you in wisconsin? >> reporter: yeah, katy, you know, it's interesting because this is a battleground county in this battleground state, and in true kenosha fashion, there's a group of two gentlemen behind me who i just overheard arguing about this news, and i went over, stirred the pot a little bit, had a genuine conversation with them, and my take aways

mirrored the conversation since the verdict is read. this is breaking through. the headline is being blasted across social media, they know the number of counts, may not know the details of the case, but they at least know the headline. two it's largely reinforced how they felt about donald trump, and to some extent, how they feel about joe biden. i want you to listen to a sample of the conversations i have had in kenosha since the verdict was read. >> how does that change anything for you in how you viewed donald trump? >> i didn't like him in the first place, so that's about it. >> you voted for biden in 2020, you plan on supporting trump this time around despite the news of his conviction. >> they're both not the greatest but i'm going to go with trump because it was a much better place. >> i would probably still vote trump over biden. >> despite having pause over the conviction? >> reporter: why is that? >> i don't think biden is a good enough candidate, and his old age should be a factor.

>> reporter: you know, it's perhaps an over generalization to say that no one cares about the verdict. you heard that last gentleman say it does give me pause. he cared about other things more. you heard him mention gaza, how he feels about the economy, in other conversations, health care came up. they put the blame on different candidates for that. people are paying attention to this but how they're digesting it is far different when you have the individual conversations. >> shaquille brewster, chuck todd, thanks to both of you. this morning, todd blanche was in the lobby of trump tower as former president trump was railing against the hush money conviction. much like we have seen him do every day for the last six weeks. now that he's been convicted is blanche going to remain his top lawyer? he is set to return to florida, turning his sights now to the florida classified documents

case. >> we're going to wake up tomorrow and fight. next week, my team and i are going to florida. we have another case that we have to fight in florida, and that's what we're going to do. we're going to go there, go into a skiff and fight that case too. >> joining me now is someone who knows what it's like to be in todd blanche's shoes. former trump organization attorney william brennan and former u.s. attorney, professor at the university of alabama school of law, and msnbc legal analyst, joyce vance. reporters in the room said yesterday before the verdict came down, the bromance between donald trump and todd blanche appeared to be back on, they were seated shoulder to shoulder, laughing and jovial, and minutes later, trump and his team found out that he had been found guilty. do you think their relationship is going to be forever changed because of the verdict? >> changed, not ended, andrea. i just finished a seven-hour sentencing and my co-counsel and i got into it a few times.

we'll be back at work on monday morning. these are emotional, passionate events in people's lives. you know, criminal trials, civil trials. it's not unusual. especially with a defendant, client, who was the most powerful man in the world for four years to get into it a little bit. i would be surprised if todd blanche didn't stay on. you know, if you fired your lawyer or kept him on or her on based on verdicts, it would be just a roller coaster ride. i think from what i saw mr. blanche did a good job, and i'll be surprised if he doesn't stay on the team with former president trump. >> he made it clear that no important decision during the course of the trial was made without donald trump, and i want to play for you what michael cohen said about that and about todd blanche last night when he was talking to rachel maddow. >> the term gloat, it's a donald

trump 4th grade playground bullying type of tactic. >> didn't you have an acronym for todd? >> i did, i was going to call him a sloat, which is the stupidest lawyer of all time. you cannot listen to your client when you are trying to create a defense. >> so i'm wondering what you make of that? don't you have to listen to your client? they are paying you. but talk about that conundrum. >> sure. so a good defense lawyer -- >> i jumped in, i apologize. >> i'm sorry. >> i'll let you go in after joyce, for sure. >> a good defense lawyer does listen to the client. they're obligated to listen to the client, but a skillful defense lawyer knows how to persuade the client to take the lawyer's advice. that's after all what they're paying for, and you want to use

the best strategy, the most effective legal advice to pursue your defense. look, one suspects that todd blanche has turbulent times ahead of him in this relationship. donald trump is clearly not happy about this conviction, but the reality is that trump was lucky to get blanche. it is unlikely he will be able to attract someone of this legal caliber, and although there is sometimes a tendency to use a different lawyer for the appeal, that can be effective. the lawyer who tried the case might have some trouble scrutinizing his own behavior in the same way that a fresh lawyer might be able to look back and talk with the judges about what went on. but i think at least for now we'll see todd blanche remain on this and other trump cases. >> joyce makes a good point, and that is that todd blanche is a good lawyer. he also had susan necheles on this team, a more experienced defense lawyer, and there were a lot of questions about why she

wasn't leading this case. blanche had his work cut out for him. he didn't win on a single count, not even the michael cohen invoices. why was susan necheles not leading this? >> well, you know, about 18 months ago, sue and i represented the trump payroll corporation and a related entity in that courtroom with judge merchan, and at least two of the prosecutors, and we were 0 for 17. you know, they were 0 for 34 yesterday. sometimes the evidence and the facts or the jurors, just, you know, can't see it either way, so to speak. doesn't mean you're not doing a good job. i agree with everything joyce said, in a criminal case, the defendant gets to make two choices, plead guilty or not guilty, testify or don't testify. that doesn't mean you just ignore the client. you certainly out of respect listen to the client, factor it in. but i think the lawyer has to run the show.

i think that's what happened here, and i haven't worked with mr. blanche, i worked closely with sue necheles, she's a tremendous lawyer. i'm sure there was a lot of collaboration. for whatever reason, mr. blanche was lead counsel. >> the only cross-examination she did was of stormy daniels. joyce vance, mr. brennan, thank you very much. and our special coverage continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. r a quick bre. don't go anywhere. ... we had toe had seen all these shows... now that we have verizon, we can stop pretending. (vo) disney+, hulu, espn+, netflix and max. all for just $20/mo. only on verizon. (mom) my turn. looking for a smarter way to mop? try the swiffer powermop. ♪♪ an all-in-one cleaning tool that gives you a mop and bucket clean in half the time ♪♪ our cleaning pad has hundreds of scrubbing strips that absorb and lock dirt away, ♪♪ and it has a 360-degree swivel head