you as a defense attorney, i have felt this tension the entire time in this. because i felt like it has been remarkable to watch the law function in this way. he is in there like any other criminal defendant. at the same time, the american criminal justice system is a brutal beast. >> that's a whole other show. >> but they are together in some ways. in some ways it seems to me like this is the apotheosis of what we want. good tourneys, blah blah blah. and this outcome represents the system at its apex. >> i agree with that holy, and what i would like to say is you have a lot of commentators who are formal federal prosecutors who have come in spoken about this particular trial. i want to give one nuance with respect to new york state practice. the jury selection process is not done by the judge. the jurors are questioned by the attorneys. when you start to have trump out here now starting to

implicitly and explicitly go at the stirrers and say it was never fair and he never had a chance, your lawyer chose them, spoke to them personally. this was not the judge. at the end of the day, you picked the jurors, you did not object, and we got the outcome that we have. >> thank you both, that is all in for this week. alex wagner tonight starts now. >> you are not going to have kokomo played well for the weekend? >> how good was that clip? >> i got to say, i was laughing. maybe that's what needs to happen. >> shout out to our beloved and arranged senior producer who watches that show every morning. >> listen, i would take the beach boys kokomo live at fox square, whatever that was, over tearing down the rule of law. bring the beach boys back. whatever you got to do. thank you, my friend, have a great weekend. so, it really happened. donald trump is been convicted on 34 felony counts in the state of new york. and there is been a lot of reaction to that news, including and especially outrage and accusations from republicans.

but if i had to pick one response that is worth paying particularly close attention to, it would be this comment from the country's highest ranking republican. >> i do believe the supreme court should step in, obviously. this is totally unprecedented. people have to believe that justice is fair, that there is equal justice under law. they don't see that right now. and i think the justices on the court, i know many of them personally. i think they are is deeply concerned about that as we are. i think they will set this straight, but it is going to take a while. >> okay, set aside a moment that very questionable bit about speaker johnson claiming to have a personal relationship with presumably the conservatives on the high court. the speaker of the house is saying that the supreme court should step in and overturn donald trump's conviction. can they do that? can the supreme court upend justice here? well, to answer that question we have to talk about what comes next for the convicted former president. first, there is the sentencing.

trump is scheduled to be sentenced on july 11th. he faces up to four years in prison, though the judge could also let him off of probation. which some experts say is typical for this type of crime. ahead of that hearing, trump will sit for an interview with the probation officer, who will put together what is called a presentence report to get a sense of trump's character and his behavior. that officer will then make a recommendation as to how heavy or how light trump's sentence should be. on one hand, trump has never been convicted of a crime before now, which should weigh in favor of a lighter sentence. on the other, trump has shown precisely 0 remorse for the crimes he has just been convicted of. he has attacked the judicial process throughout his entire trial, and he has repeatedly violated the gag order that prohibits him from talking outside of court about the parties involved in this case. that gag order is still very much in effect, and this morning trump likely violated it again when he talked about star

witness michael cohen without exactly mentioning his name. >> by the way, this was a highly qualified lawyer. i'm not allowed to use his name because of the gag order. but you know, he's a sleazebag. everybody knows that. >> so, all of that might suggest a stricter sentence. once trump is sentenced he can beneficially appeal his conviction. right after sentencing trump will have 30 days to file a notice of appeal, basically indicating to the court that he intends to keep fighting his conviction. then, depending on a sentence, trump will have anywhere from 4 to 6 months to actually appeal. all of this would potentially stretch past the election and towards the end of this year, possibly as late as december. then the prosecution will get time, usually several months to file its response to trump's appeal. once that happens the cases than in the hands of the new york appellate division's

first department, which is composed of 21 justices. despite a picture that went viral today showing five of the justices who are all black women and suggesting that donald trump's fate would be in their hands, there is no reason to believe that specifically these five desk justices would be the ones to hear the appeal, or, by the way, that there would be anything wrong with it if they are chosen. again, the case is not likely to reach that court until sometime next year, and it could take that court until early 2026 to make its decision. so, what about speaker mike johnson's fever dream of the supreme court stepping in? well, let's say the appellate court decides to uphold trump's conviction. if trump loses that first appeal he can then appeal again to new york's highest court. in any other state that would be the state supreme court, but new york is weird.

you probably already knew that. here we call our highest court the new york court of appeals, which isn't confusing at all. but if trump takes his case all the way to new york's highest court and loses, he has one last hail mary. can you guess what it is? it is the supreme court. now, the supreme court is not obligated to hear any appeals from state court. but, given the way this particular supreme court has treated this particular defendant, you probably can't rule it out. in other words, there is a chance that sometime in the not- too-distant future donald trump could have his 34 felony convictions thrown out by a rogue conservative supreme court. in the meantime, donald trump, felon and front runner, has to continue to work his way through the appeals process, just like any other defendant. and while that happens, trump is taking his fight to the court of public opinion. where he is intent on trying to undermine the integrity of the

american judicial system. today the former president posted this video to his social media platform. >> this is a manufactured criminal case. >> ridiculous charges. >> what happened today was offensive to the constitution. >> they never articulated the crime here. >> awakened the sleeping giant. >> what the radical left democrats are counting on is your submission. no one's going to stop us, no one's going to slow us down. the only way for us to fight back successfully is to let donald trump win. see my the real verdict will be on november 5th. he couldn't be more right. >> don't get mad, get motivated. >> we will fight for our constitution. thank you very much. >> 20 me now are anna bauer, legal fellow in quartz correspondent for l'affaire, and duncan levin, assistant

attorney for the district of new york. i see you guys both have notes, that's good. i have a lot of questions. first, duncan, just weigh in on the prospects of an appeal here. trump is clearly going to appeal. >> and appeal is 100% likely. to get to the united states supreme court, really all you need is five friends on the united states supreme court and a pathway to get there, and you have grounds for reversal. the first stop is the new york state appellate courts. i think you are likely to see a number of arguments that really go nowhere. mr. trump is going to throw his loggers under the bus for not objecting, like he has done for every other lawyer, not objecting enough during stormy daniels's testimony and letting all the salacious details come in. of course, that is the reason the prosecutors brought out that testimony in the first place, to show the power of stormy daniels's testimony. and the story that was going to come out on the heels of that access hollywood tape, he is going to argue that he could not get a fair jury pool in new york as he is so notorious here,

although that is largely true of anywhere he gets a trial. he is going to argue there is a novel application of this statute that has never been used before, although just because it is novel doesn't mean they can't do it. >> can we pause on that? i have asked other lawyers whether they think this is novel, and i get different responses. writing in politico today, if trump has a good path to appeal, it is based on the idea that state law is effectively nixing what federal law in this case. can you break that down? >> i don't think that's actually going to be the most effective pathway into federal court for him, and that is because if you take a step back and look what this case is, it is the mr. trump cause the falsification of business records with the intent to conceal a conspiracy to promote his election by unlawful means. it does not say that the unlawful means can't be a violation of federal law. there is nothing saying that it needs to be state law. >> there were three options that i think the judge outline. one was tax laws, one was falsification of other business records, and the other was a federal campaign finance law.

so that's eye exam? >> you did very well. and i have to say, i think that is exactly where this appeal is going to lie to get him into federal court. there is this concept of a writ of habeas corpus, and this is all going to start in the state appellate courts. for that reason, i don't think we will see the end to this in the state courts before the election. but he is going to try to get into federal court on this writ of habeas corpus that his federal constitutional rights were violated. and i think there is no new york state law that says that there has to be unanimity on the means by which he unlawfully promoted his election. but there is some federal law out there that says that where the facts are so complicated or the facts are so different there has to be a unanimity direction given to the jury. and if there isn't, that it could theoretically violate a defendant's sixth amendment rights under the united states constitution to a fair trial. i am not saying that is a meritorious appeal, but that is going to be has pathway to the

federal courts, that there is federal law talking about his sixth amendment right in the united states constitution, as opposed to the violation of the new york state constitutional rights. and once against a federal court he is going to be rocketing up to his five friends on the supreme court. once he gets his foot in the door there, that's what his plan is going to be. >> your nodding along. >> yeah, i think there is a different issue, as well, the deals with the mixing of state and federal law which is preemption, i think, as you mentioned, the three unlawful means, one of them being bees campaign finance violations which is federal law. and within preemption there is this idea that states can't, within -- infringe on this if was a domain of federal regulations. so there is going to be this argument that justice merchan erred by allowing the jury to consider the these unlawful means as specifically the federal ones. i don't think that is going to be a convincing argument, though.

keep in mind, this preemption argument is one that they already made last summer. they tried to remove the proceedings to federal court from state court to federal court. >> something they have done in other cases. >> in georgia, exactly. yes, exactly. so, what judge heller, the federal judge, said, is no, there is no issue of preemption here. why? because this is not a law that targets any of these federal campaign finance issues, it is just a state law, the object defense is a state law. it just happens to be that one aspect of that state law has to do a little bit with the campaign finance. but remember, there is nothing here that requires prosecutors to actually prove any kind of campaign finance. >> that's right, there was a

poo poo platter of options, to put it in layman's terms. >> intent to conceal. there is nothing here that really is a conflict between the state and federal laws, that is what judge hellerstein said, and trump's team decided after that to not appeal that decision. if you look at the decisional law it really would be inconsistent. >> it is heavy lift. >> what is the scuttlebutt on the appeals court? the second highest. 21 justices, i know it is hard to generalize given the number of justices there. but do you think that they would be inclined to hear, to give trump the benefit of the doubt? >> the intermediate appellate court is a matter of right. he has the right to appeal there. whether the court of appeals, the highest one. >> i know, the second highest court. the first division. >> the appellate division is the middle one.

it is definitely going there. whether it goes to the court of appeals is something that is discretionary, it probably will, given the weight of the case. but there is really nothing under state law that he has a right to stand on. so to the extent that he has any real shot of getting this overturned, it is going to be in the federal courts. even that, look, it is a longshot to get anything overturned. if your name is donald trump maybe you have a better chance in the federal courts, because this is a case that is a category all to its own. >> yeah, i am looking at the supreme court there was not even supposed to take up the immunity case and is now seriously deliberating over it. could have remanded back to district court. what is your expectation about the supreme court getting involved in this? >> look, as you said, alex, it's going to be a little while. i think if they do get involved i think it will have to go through up to the new york court of appeals. but i do think that, you know, it seems like donald trump, as you said, you've got to have five friends on the supreme court. seems like donald trump does have five friends on the

supreme court. but i think it really just depends on the issues. if there are any of these issues that are attractive to the supreme court, it may very well be the preemption argument that we just discussed. although, i do think it is a really heavy lift, and it would kind of upend a lot of the established law. >> that sounds like it is tailor-made. >> is one of those moments you wish you had a supreme court that was not enmeshed with all these controversies, where you would believe that if they took a case it would be on the merits of it and not because they are fully radicalized in any way. >> waving and insurrectionist flag in front of their beachhouse, yes. >> that they are actually looking at the lawn of fairway. if he can get a federal court all bets are off in this case is unlike any other, and mr. trump has a rocket up to them. >> when you say a rocket, just to be clear, can he circumvent the appellate division in new york? he has to go through this many month long procedure before he can do an end run?

is that right? >> the law is pretty clear that this will go to the new york state appellate process. it is to be completely exhausted before the federal courts can step in on this writ of habeas corpus. it's really his only way in. >> so we could be looking at 2025, 2026. who knows who is president. who knows if there is still time lexi or probation? and maybe the supreme court getting involved. >> we could be sitting here years from now talking about this. >> what can go wrong? well, it is great to see you guys. thank you so much for helping me and all of us through this. we will break down the furious political reaction on the right to yesterday's verdict. but first, president biden offered a measured reaction to trump's's convection today at an official white house event. will that change once he is the campaign trail? we are going to ask one of the campaign at national co-chairs for biden's campaign. that is next. to be able to make

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>> donald trump was given every opportunity to defend himself. it was a state case, not a federal case. and it was heard by a jury of 12 citizens. 12 americans. 12 people like you. that is how the american system of justice works. and it is reckless, it is dangerous, it is irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict.

president biden today broke his silence on donald trump's unanimous guilty verdict with a not subtle response to trump's attacks on the judicial system. resident biden's comments follow an apparently deliberate strategy to address trump's trial, while maintaining an edict that biden himself put in place a year ago, that the entity is that the white house controls were not to publicly discuss any of the criminal investigations into trump, keeping a clear line between the west wing and the department of justice. it is unclear what the strategy will be when biden is not at the white house and is instead on the campaign trail. joining me now is mitchell andrew, biting campaign national co-chair and former lieutenant governor of louisiana. governor andrew, thank you for being here. i am eager to know, from what you can tell us, what the strategy might be once president biden is not at the white house, and whether he is going to speak more vociferously, perhaps, about the phelan front runner in the

republican party. >> well, it will be the same as it always has been, because joe biden from the beginning has talked about wisdom, character, and judgment. that a person needs to be a good president of the united states. you saw yesterday a jury of donald trump's pierce create a foundation, a strong foundation for democracy that comes from being judged by a jury of your peers. it is a mainstay of democracy. and they found it donald trump guilty on all 34 counts, and he has, as a matter of fact, a convicted felon. he also, by the way, has a judgment against him in court for being a defamer and a sexual abuser, he also has a state judgment against him to the tune of about three or $400 million from being a business fraud. and of course, three or four more cases coming up. it points up this particular fact, that even given this criminal conviction, donald trump will still be the republican nominee for president. and the only way to keep them from the white house is for everybody to go out and to vote against him. that is how we are going to save democracy, which, in case people haven't figured it out

yet, is under serious threat by donald trump's insistence on focusing on himself and tearing on democracy in the process. and we will make that case to the american people. you cannot have seen a more bizarre split screen today, when donald trump and his soliloquy could not string two words together. and you cannot understand what he was saying. when he was talking hardly told one truth. with joe biden in the white house, being the commander in chief, talking about our nation's security, trying to bring peace to the conflict and continuing to govern the country and protect people's freedom, democracy, lower-cost for families, and protect the gains that have been made under the most historic in ministrations that we have seen in a long time. >> i am trying to read between the lines here. i understand the stagecraft, which is born of reality, that the president is running the country. he is continuing to execute his duties, and those are big duties. and to be sort of dragged down

into the muck of donald trump and his incoherent press conferences is probably not great strategy. but at the same time, we do have reporting that the biting campaign wants the president to be more aggressive on the campaign trail. and i wonder, it you mentioned e. jean carroll, is that something the president is going to talk about? will we see more pugilist them from the president, especially given what is being said about him from his opponent? today donald trump said this case was all done by biden and his people, maybe his people, more portly, because i don't know if i do knows too much about it. i don't know if he knows about anything. he is punching below the belt. i am not adjusting the president do the same. but can you offer any insight into his aggressive posture? >> i can absolutely do that. we are not going to bring a knife to this gunfight. donald trump should not talk about people's mental acuity after that 35 minute diatribe that was just deranged and

unhinged. that is who he is. and of course, when you talk about wisdom, character, and judgment, you are talking about whether or not donald trump can make a reasonable decision. you know what nobody has even mentioned in this case? donald trump is the guy who picked michael cohen. michael cohen was donald trump sky. he was the same type of take that donald trump made when he picked rex tillerson, general mattox, john kelly. all of this people were donald trump's pics. because donald trump is great at picking people. everyone of those people will say please do not let donald trump anywhere around the white house. so this election, which, by the way, can only be won if people go to the polls and vote. that is the only thing that is going to stop donald trump from being the president of the united states, it will hinge on whether they think donald trump will continue to take us into chaos, and you know he will, because that is all he knows how to do. or whether you want to follow joe biden, who is fighting for the american people every day, who has created millions of jobs, who has the lowest unemployment rate we have had in the last 50 years, and who will continue to fight pharma and big oil.

and oh, by the way, in case anybody miss it, donald trump stole the people of america's clean air and clean water to the oil and gas companies in exchange for a billion-dollar contribution. the public will hear about that every day, because we will remind them what it was like when donald trump was president. you recall, he lost 2.5 million jobs. many people were dying from covid, and his response was to drink bleach. he supported an insurrection. now he continues to tear down the tenants of democracy. joe biden will stand between him and a dictatorship that he wants to create. and our campaign will take that message to them and stand toe to toe every day until this election is over and joe biden is the president of the united states again. >> when you talk about standing toe to toe, i wonder if you could weigh in on the contrast between the two responses here. mike johnson, speaker of the house, republicans said today is a shameful day in american history. the weaponization of our justice system has become a hallmark of the biden administration. house democratic leader hakeem

jeffries, and many ways his colleague in parallel power with the democratic conference. america is a nation built upon the rule of law. the jury has spoken and carefully rendered a decision. responsible leadership requires the verdict to be respected. what do you make of the contrast between those two statements? >> well, mike johnson knows better than that. mike johnson is a constitutional lawyer, which, as he likes to remind us to of time to time, and the bedrock of the constitution as an independent judiciary. this was a state court judgment. you know how many there are in the country? about 30,000 of them. this was the same exact process they use for every defendant that is charged. and oh, by the way, donald trump had a right to lawyers. they had the best paid lawyers in america. they actually helped pick this jury and it was a unanimous jury on all accounts. and the jury system in the united states of america is the thing that separates us from autocracy, because it you are able to be judged by a jury of your peers. the alternative is mob rule. that is we had a long time ago before we left those folks on the other side of the pond.

so hakeem jeffries has a much closer read on what is right. mike johnson knows better than that, and it is shameful that he actually took that course of action. >> yeah, it is not the court that is kangaroo, perhaps the kangaroo is you, donald trump. former lieutenant governor mitch landry, not bringing a knife to a gunfight. you heard it here first. thank you for joining me here, it is great to see you. >> thank you, good to be with you. coming up, republican party officials were swift and unequivocal in their rejection of trump's guilty verdict, but how does this conviction and their outrage play with american voters? we are going to discuss with michelle goldberg and tim miller. that is next. >> no application fee if you apply by may 31 at university of maryland global campus, offering online and hybrid courses and lifetime career services. learn about our more than 125 degrees and certificates at umgc.edu. dangerous ladders. gutter muck.

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>> de respect with the jurors have had to say in the verdict? >> no, i don't. i think it is partly the jury's fault, but really the fault of judge merchan . >> we have to be willing to fight back. we have to subpoena judge merchan and his daughter. >> we should subpoena judge merchan 's daughters financial. >> the jury supporters were selected from manhattan. >> the 24 hours since donald trump was found unanimously guilty of 34 felonies, elected republicans have been rushing to cameras to not just say falsely that this trial was rigged, but to say that the party needs to fight back. despite no evidence of wrongdoing, at all, republicans are now calling for criminal

investigation into judge juan merchan, and for d.a. alvin bragg and one of his prosecutors to be investigated by congress. rather than accepting the rule of law, republicans are demonizing the people who enforced it. today the nonprofit group advanced democracy reported that since trump was found guilty there has been a high volume of social media posts containing violent rhetoric targeting, no surprise here, judge merchan and d.a. bragg. post showing alvin bragg next to a photo of a noose showing caption january 20th, 2025. traders get the rope. equally concerning, advanced democracy reports a high volume of new posts calling for the jurors from this case to be docs, with posts saying we need to identify each juror, then make them miserable, maybe even suicidal. joining me now are michelle goldberg, new york times opinion columnists, and tim miller, writer at large for the bulwark.

thank you for being here. i know it is like a frog in a slowly boiling pot of water, but the last 24 hours have felt measurably worse in terms of the integrity of our democracy than any time i can remember. >> for sure, on two levels. i appreciate that a port. they actually put rigorous research into looking at this. but speaking for myself, back in 2016 i used to get a lot of really mean maga messages, as an ex-republican. i haven't as much in 2020. the volume was lower a little bit. maybe it was covid, maybe it was biden versus hillary. who knows. but a huge skyrocketing of trolls, oh, you better hope your boy wins, it feels real. the anger is real. are people going to act on it? i don't know. when you have a tender box like that, people are are liable to act. and you look at the people who are supposed to be responsible, the leaders. their messages are delusional and deranged. what you just showed the beginning was a small snippet

of the kinds of things. mike collins of georgia, republican, was saying that republican d.a.s should start targeting democratic candidates. nancy mace, who is supposed to be one of the normal ones from south carolina was tweeting that this was like a prudent situation. the irresponsible, insane rhetoric about our justice system from even the more qualified normal, mainstream republicans is extremely alarming. >> yeah, we are talking the senate here. not just the lack of new house. and there are plenty of what to do people in the senate. eight republicans vowed to oppose all biden nominees and all democratic legislation. mike lee, jd vance, tommy turberville, marsha blackburn, rick scott, and marco rubio. >> it's not like any of these people have been super cooperative up until now in terms of legislation. but i think, so, maybe this is giving them too much credit. but i think that some of these

people, in order to live with themselves and in order to maintain their kind of psychological integrity have had to convince themselves that this is a kind of situation where this is a show trial. because otherwise they would have to come to terms with the fact that they have thrown their support and their life's work behind a man who did all of the things that he was just convicted of. mike lee, one of the signatories to that letter, in 2016 mike lee called for trump to step aside after the access hollywood tape. and now you have him -- >> it was the convention! he was on the convention floor trying to replace trump. >> right, now you have them vigorously, passionately defending the right of trump to not just pay off a porn star to keep it quiet after the access hollywood tape, but to then not be prosecuted for it. and again, i think, i am sure some of it is just cynical and it is just about power. but i also think that in order

to make their worldview cohere they have had to convince themselves that donald trump is being victimized in some way. >> right, there was the kind of swimsuit competition portion of trial last week where everyone arrived in the same outfit. >> it's friday night. >> it gives who can kiss the boot the best. that is also a weird metaphor. but the vp stakes for all of this. that is the element. but to michelle's point, the kind of stockholm syndrome where they learned to love their captor, donald trump. which is more disturbing to you, and which do you think most officially accounts for what is happening? >> the stockholm syndrome is more concerning. because if these guys really believe their own bs, if they have really come to rationalize somewhere in their brain that the american justice system, that there is a two tiered system of justice and half of americans are being targeted because of their views, then they are going to be able to rationalize a lot of insane

stuff if trump were to win again. and that is the scariest part. at some level you almost hope they are faking. you almost hope they are faking, just in case trump gets in. now we have marco vp and we are going to start to push the old man down to florida. that would be a preferable situation. and these guys really know, for whatever reason, they hate the left so much or it is their own conscience calling at them, whatever the reason is, they are now so deep in that they are ready to go along with donald trump's authoritarian aspirations. that is the scariest part. >> and this is a truism of the trump years, every accusation is a confession. everything that they accused biden and bragg and the democrats are doing is all telegraphing exactly what they plan to do if they are able to seize power. >> you are making such a good point. they want to throw around the word fascism. witness what happened this week on the house floor. jim mcgovern, the democrat from

massachusetts in the house, mentions trump's indictments on the house for. this is from susan glasses reporting in the new yorker. mcgovern's words this week were officially deleted from the house record on the grounds that he had accused donald trump of illegal activities, as if mcgovern were somehow just slinging charges on his own rather than referring to actual court cases in courts of law. she writes trump is no sovereign, regal or otherwise, not yet, anyway, but in the house ever seen by his party unpleasant events concerning him can officially be written out of history with the bang of a gavel. it is orwell. this is what is happening before this man -- >> it is dumber than orwell. >>'s i was the crowd size thing. all of these things with trump, there is this line between sinister and ridiculous that is kind of destabilizing as you

try to figure out which side things come down on, and the answer is that they are both. >> i just feel like this is where we are right, the week trump has been convicted, what happens when he is the front runner? what happens when he is the actual official nominee? >> the rhetoric is only going to ratchet up, and we were talking a little bit about this on the break. but he is going to be sentenced four days before the republican convention. so you can imagine the type of rhetoric, the type of attacks that are going to be going after the judge, the judge's family, the jurors, and everyone else. if we are in a position where donald trump has an ankle bracelet or is on home confinement when the rnc is supposed to meet in milwaukee. >> here we are, that's where we are at. >> don't leave, stay right where you are. we still have a lot more to get into tonight. coming up, president biden weighed in on donald trump's felony convictions. so now, what about the rest of the party? we are going to discuss the debate among democrats after this quick break.

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massachusetts senator ed markey posted a picture of red sox legend david ortiz wearing his 34 jersey, you know, because of the 34 felony counts. these democrats are so far the exception. on the whole, the party has maintained a very sober approach to the trump verdict, with the majority limiting themselves to statements like no one is above the law, and the rule of law applies to everyone. i am back with michelle goldberg and tim miller. thank you both for sticking around. michelle, let me start with you. storied political strategists have very different ideas about how democrats should manage this. axelrod says the biting campaign may be tempted to flood the zone about the conviction, but while trump wallows in his own troubles, the right play for biden maybe to lean even more into the day- to-day concerns of people. the contrast would be powerful. you are already shaking your head.

there is simply no need to recite wrote talking points about the sanctity of the judicial system. our opponent in the election was convicted of serious crimes. we should make an answer for it at every opportunity. do you have an opinion? >> yeah, my opinion is that dan pfeiffer is right. it is bananas. i don't think that biden or the democrats need to go around popping champagne corks, at least in public. they don't need to take victory laps. what they do need to point out is first of all, that this conviction was for interfering in the 2016 election. then he tried to steal the 2020 election. he has already talked about kind of in this kidding not kidding way that he wants three terms in office. if he goes into office with a jail term on the other side of it, he is not coming out. i think there is a very, very clear way to link donald trump's criminality to his threat to the future of american democracy. >> i also think, in addition to the reality

anything about it.

the only reason i know is because politico wrote a story out it. you are right, he hasn't said anything. do any republicans applauded him by the fact he is following the norms of not attacking supreme court justices? >> i think acpart of the strate as he is an institutional list. he has a hard time bringing himself to attack members of the court even though they are flying insurrectionist flats. >> he is not getting credit for it and if he doesn't talk about donald trump being a convicted felon surrounded by felons thatu he pardoned, bringing felons on the stage with him, bringing out people out on bail for murder on the stage with him in the bronx last week. if he doesn't talk about that t nobody will know it. we can talk about it, but that is not where the persuadable voters are right now. joe biden has to talk to it in a way that people will see it on tiktok and youtube and make sure people know about this stuff.

>> look, no democrat is able to do what donald trump does and just repeat the same lines at nod to see him -- lines ad nauseam. i do think the refrain with hillary clinton created this psychic atmosphere where when comey reopened the case before the election there were all of these associations that there was something untoward and people were worried. remember, people were worried. how can she be president with a possible criminal investigation over her head. what kind of chaos l will that cause? you don't get people there unless you say it over and over and over again. felon, ellen, felon. >> even the ones you highlighted, these are good, but there was no message. >> that was the social media version of popping champagne. >> which is fine, but have a message. >> the fact is there is an

ongoing debate as to whether the president will refer to trump as a convicted felon, which to me signals we have a long way to go before there is a more aggressive posture. the campaign is working on it. they said they will not bring a knife to a gunfight, so time will tell. michelle goldberg, tim miller, i appreciate you. have a great weekend. still ahead, republicans say that prosecuting and convicting a former leader means one thing. we live in a banana republic and they are not talking about the store that sells chinos. there are quite a few arguments and we will bring you the most glaring one, coming up next. up. with no odor and no mess. they work continuously, so you don't have to. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly.

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banana republic is a phrase that republicans have been throwing around a lot in the last 24 hours since donald trump's conviction. according to the gop, trumps guilty verdict is a sign that our justice system and democracy have been replaced by what they call a third world system of government. there are a number of problems with that, but chief among them is this. stable democracies around the world hold their heads of state accountable for breaking the law and they do it all the time. >> out of south africa, the country's former president has been found guilty of contempt of court and sentenced to 15 months in prison. >> reporter: guilty, a judgment heard quite often these days.

>> the only french president to stand trial for corruption charges. now the only ex-president to be found guilty of trying to bribe a judge. >> 2015 saw another former south korean leader sentenced to jail time. the former conservative president who ruled the country from 2008 to do thousand 13 was sentenced to prison for corruption charges. >> argentina's vice president sentenced to six years in prison and barred from holding public office again. >> france, italy, south korea. do republicans consider those countries banana republics? france may have a banana republic store, i don't know, but it is not an actual banana republic. all of these countries have successfully prosecuted leaders without collapse or threat of violence. it happens. which is why as the daily beast puts it, the rest of the world is looking at this news and mostly just accepting it.

most of the world with one notable exception, russia. russian president vladimir putin's spokesman echoed republicans and accused president biden of weaponize in the justice system against his political enemy. here is how our secretary of state, antony blinken, responded. >> the kremlin put out a statement saying the trial shows that the white house is eliminating its political rivals. you know, they are trying to use this as a way to besmirch the american legal system. how do you respond to that? >> i would say that is a classic case of projection. >> that is our show tonight and as a reminder you can listen to every episode as a podcast, for free. scan the qr code on your screen or search for alex wagner tonight wherever you get your podcasts. now it is time for the last word with my friend, lawrence o'donnell, on a friday. what an evening.