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12 new yorkers have affirmed the principle that no one in america, not even a former president, is above the law. a jury unanimously found donald trump guilty on 34 felony counts of falsifying business records. the criminal case hinged on the testimony and evidence of the trials narrator, trumps fixer turned foe, michael cohen. he joins us here now. he is the author of disloyal, the true story of a former personal attorney to president donald j trump and how trump weaponized the u.s. department of justice against his critics. is also the host of the mea pope and political podcast. >> i am so busy. >> i want to get some context here. when this all began for you in many respects, at that time trump is in the white house, you had gotten caught up in this thing on your way to prison

, how, having this, full-circle and watching what occurred this week, do you appreciate that role? that narration? i thought it was very interesting and important for you to frame this chapter in this context. you knew how everyone else was going to come at it. for you, it was like it is time to tell my story and tell it the way it occurred, the things that happened, what i saw and what i heard and did for donald trump. >> i have been trying to tell the same story for six years. i could not get the story out against the trump mega microphone machine with all of the crazy gop members of congress. i wrote a "new york times" best- selling book and it still did not work. i wrote a second "new york times" best-selling book and it still did not work. now, at least i have the platform at a trial. the first

in u.s. history of a former president to be held accountable for the things that i have been talking about for six years. remember, the das case did not start when i was released from otis phil, it started while i was in otis phil. three times, three times the manhattan da team came to visit me there. that is where began. >> that's what really began. that is where the saga began. >> prior to the start of the trial, you were very careful, i think, not to discuss anything that the manhattan das office discussed with you. you wanted to protect the integrity of the trial. now that the verdict has come down and that these of the trial is over and we move on to sentencing. initial conversation that you had with the manhattan da office when you found out they were going to bring this case forward, what was that

conversation? >> there were two separate das involved in this case first it was side vents. when i was in otis phil it was cy vance's team, then i met with mark when i was ultimately released from otis phil as a result of covid. the nutcase went away and we all remember that story and alvin brandt became the district attorney, he was looking at a different set of charges than what cy vance was looking at. a lot of people, myself included, were very disappointed because they believed there was more than enough in the other set of charges to come against trump and hold him accountable for those crimes. i guess we were all wrong and i am the first one to admit i was wrong. alvin braggs certainly brought the right case, 12 jurors

unanimously decided on 34 counts of guilt. >> tom branch was on the today show talking about the prospects of an appeal, take a listen. >> you are confident on appeal? >> yes. >> what is the main issue? do not give me a legal brief. >> i think the statute of limitations, the way in the background this case was brought is meaningful. i do not think michael cohen should ever be somebody who could be relied upon to convict somebody. >> you are part of the case and now you are part of the appeal. >> thank you very much for it i have a name for, it is called slope, stupidest lawyer of all time. i'm sure he is watching like everyone else great ratings. he is the stupidest lawyer of all times. why? you do not make the defense of all-time great let's just

credit one of the witnesses, let's discredit the narrator. there are 19 other people that were called by the manhattan district attorney prosecutors like susan often stir, josh stein glass, obviously alvin bragg leading the charge, 19 people testified which all corroborated, again, the narrative of my story, what i had been saying for six years. corroborated by 19 independent people, who by the way work for trump and still remain loyal to him. >> is that your instinct that donald trump was calling the shots and such as go after cohen? >> combination of both. guaranteed it is all predicated around donald trump calling the shots. i have seen him do it going back to 2007 when i started working for him. he calls the shots, it is the

wrong thing to do, you do not allow your client to dictate to you the terms of your defense, especially when you're talking about something as important as this case. u-turn and you let them create the defense. you can participate as a client, you do not dictate the terms of the defense. it is, again, stupid which is why i call him a sloat . >> there is a paper trail, there are documents here that cooperate and held up everything that you said, it was not just you, there was david pecker and hope hicks -- >> what is your sense why did they not come for david pecker the way that they came for you or the way they came for stormy daniels, why were they not critical of hope hicks? >> hope hicks is sort of the

poster child, she is young, she is attractive, she is intelligent, and she is very soft spoken. she is like a prosecutors dream poster child, despite the fact she was involved in so many aspects of what was going on. me, new yorker, raisin, trash, easy to attack me. why the southern district of new york did what they did, why they gave david pecker and allen weisselberg immunity in order to testify against me, to this day nobody can give me that answer, it does not make sense. >> how will you process, we raised the point about appeals in the next level up and be level of involvement that you will have. you have these other narratives that are out there around you

and around others in terms of donald trump is the victim here. the one thing you are narrative makes very clear and i think will be be very important on the appeal is, donald trump was the architect. he is a micromanager of micromanagers. he is not one of these guys or ceos who sits back and every quarter gets a debriefing of what happened in the last three months, he is involved day in and day out. you think that narrative reinforces the argument as it gets in front of an appeals court? in other words, this is less about michael cohen despite what trump's lawyers are saying and it really is, as the 12 jurors decided, all about trump. >> donald has put this in many of his books, if you come at him, he will come at you 10 times harder. i seem to be the only one who has stood up, i should not say

the only one, stormy daniels has, e. jean carroll has, we are talking about in this specific narrative, i am certainly front and center. his feeling is not only do i need to knock michael down, i also need to set an example for others that you do not want to be michael cohen, you do not want to take the blows that i and members of congress that are supporting this are going to be coming at you. this is a mafia message. >> what is the difference between you and weisselberg? weisselberg is like, don't know not staying. >> weisselberg is still in the camp and still in the cold and he will not testify against donald trump. he has the right not to testify to plead the fifth. that is what he did. as a direct result he is spending more time at rikers island.

>> he is at rikers. y'all have not been to rikers -- . i am struck by the fact, you went to jail, you did not have the sexual encounter with the young lady, it was not even you, you, at this point were the one person held accountable for everything that went on and that was an inflection point. why do you think that was an inflection point for someone like allen weisselberg? >> there is no way to explain why he refuses to provide the testimony that we all know that he has. as you stated earlier, it is in his handwriting. it has his initials next to it. it has two checks with his name written on the bottom. why he refuses to do it, nobody -- he is also under an

agreement, he gets a severance of light $2 million if he does not testify. >> that was something that did not come up in court. they were not able to reference it. >> we will just talk about it here on the weekend. another thing we should talk about that no one else is talking about is yesterday's wacko doodle press conference. >> we will talk about that. we will take a break and then talk about that. >> it was a show. >> i appreciate that. right after this, stay with us. sometimes your work shirt needs to be for more than just work. like when it needs to be a big, soft shoulder to cry on. which is why downy does more to make clothes softer, fresher, and better. downy. breathe life into your laundry. if you're living with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis or active psoriatic arthritis,

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we are back with michael cohen. before we went to break, you were talking about the press conference, let's be clear, it was not a press conference, it was a statement. with a press conference you take questions. >> it was filled with a bunch of people who work in the building. as i was watching it, i decided i would have to put something on my twitter account. i wrote, trump's press conference is nothing shy of a bad crazy avalanche of broken brained manure. that's what it was. it was a rambling series of nonsense. here is something that is

interesting that no one is talking about, he is not even allowed to do that press conference in trump tower. >> why not? >> he does not own the public space. if you look outside the door it says open to the public. he gave away that space years ago in order to build the residential portion. that is how he obtained the fa are, the air rights in order to go as high as he did for that property. he does not own it, therefore you need a permit. he was warned of this in 2016 during the campaign. does donald trump care about the law? no. the same way he put up the clock on fifth avenue without permits. he just does things. the law does not apply to him the way it applies to the rest of us. >> that is an important point and part of the psychology of trump that i have always been fascinated by. in my encounters with him early on at 13 and whatever, it is very clear he

is a man who believes i will do it unless you stop me. he does not believe that you can stop him. there is truth to that. if you look at how our system, our judicial system, our political system, our media has capitulated to his brand, his level of pugnacious offensive behavior, treating it as entertainment, treating it as politically press it in terms of how republicans look at it. what is it about him that allows him, to your point, do the thing that he is not allowed by law, or by principal to do? yet everything around him just kind of goes, okay. >> we are having this conversation with the fact that he was convicted of 34 counts

-- >> and 500 million in the new york attorney general -- >> we are eight years into this. now we are at that point. look at all of the terrain that has been disrupted and burned to the ground before we got to that point. that is what i'm talking about. this accountability is important . along the way it was not there. what was it about him that made people feel? the lawyers did not get paid. the banks had defaults. they would give him alone the next time. what is it? >> it is unexplainable. i truly do not understand it. is donald trump entertaining? absolutely. first of all, the look that goes on, how many people have made fun of the orange tan and cotton candy hair?

he actually embraces the attacks. he believes anything they could've said about him is a positive. that is a narcissistic sociopath by design. what he does is he makes everything about him. for whatever the reason -- he brings out the worst in people. >> and they seem to like it. >> not only do they like it, they embrace it and run with it. >> true question for you, one, having gone through this presentencing hearing, i want to hear from you what the expenses like. i also heard you say you don't think you should go to prison and i underwent and i want to understand why. >> yes, i did go through that process, thanks for bringing up a bad memory. it is a horrible process. you sit down with an individual

and you basically have to open up your entire life to them whether it is financial, medical, they need to know everything. it is based upon that document that gets submitted to the judge for review and the judge uses that in determining the sentence. here, we see, to mike's point, donald is a bombastic. they wanted to call me bombastic, they thought i would come on with the nine iron and start swinging it, donald trump is the only one who went went out and attack everybody. >> again, he had a whole slew of members of congress sitting behind him doing the same thing. that is going to determine the sentence including violations of the gag order, which i believe he did again yesterday. i still think the gag order is in place in his behavior, his 10 minute rambling about me he is violating the gag order. do i think he will be

convicted? absolutely, 100%. do i think the judge is going to sentence him to prison or jail? the answer is no. >> you also said you do not think he should be sentenced to jail >> announcer: i'm afraid for him to go to jail. >> why? >> not for him, not for safety. i am more concerned for you and for all of us and for the american people. this clown had four years of being debriefed on national security issues. on top of that, if he becomes the republican nominee he gets debriefed again think about this, america, think about this. you now have a republican leading candidate who is a felon who is going to be debriefed on national security issues knowing how loose lipped he is, how he is willing to

give away america's secrets to vladimir putin, or to anybody for money. or simply for bragging rights but he did it with the australian billionaire at mar-a-lago. he sat there in helsinki with vladimir putin talking about national security issues but no one else was around except for vladimir putin's translator. these are not normal things. you do not allow somebody like donald trump to be declassified especially now as a felon. my concern is in a prison situation, he is willing to give away these secrets for a bag of tuna or a book of stamps. he will do it because he does not care. if america turns against him, he would rather see america burned to the ground. that is who he is. >> that part i believe. >> will you stay for a little longer?

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not all toothpastes whiten the same. crest 3d white removes 100% more stains for a noticeably whiter smile. new personal best. crest. we are back with michael cohen. thank you for sticking around. >> it's not like i had a choice. >> you kind have locked him into the chair. >> a couple things i want to check on but i want to finish up with the prison portion. here is where i come from. i get the whole formal president thing. i am looking at all of the former presidents before trump and none of them did any of this, none of them wound up in the court system, been adjudicated rapong someone.

for me, all of the entrapments of the presidency kind of go away. as a former lieutenant governor if i go in do a crime like trump , i am not going to rely on that i was once an elected official. we have countless elected officials that have come before donald trump before the u.s. senate governors, et cetera, who do not have the benefit of their former office to protect them and everyone bent over backwards for them in the judicial process because of their former position. that is how i look at this. you forfeit that, mr. trump, when you behave the way you behave, while you were in office and while you were trying to maintain that office. this idea of being the president and being treated that way when it comes to what is the penalty for your crimes, what would it be for anybody else? you get up to four years x is

it 18 months plus community service? there should not be a bar just because. you see things differently -- >> i agree with you 100%. what i am worried about, i am willing to put aside that, for the fear of the danger that he will place, not that he might, he will place america in if in fact he is put into a institution, jail or prison, he will do it or if there is no doubt in my mind, the same way he did it while he was in office. the same way when he was in mar- a-lago. we know for a fact that he gave away information on how many nuclear warheads were on a specific nuclear ship. one of our military vessels. think about how dangerous information in that guys head

is, and he does not think. >> this is something to wrestle with between now and july, the sentencing. i don't think we can operate out of fear. the united states has joined italy, france, israel who have held current and former residents accountable and the legal system for a crime. >> i want to end by talking about michael cohen i want to take you back to 2019 is something that elijah cummings that to you. take a listen. >> i know this has been hard and i know that you face a lot, i know that you are worried about your family, this is a part of your destiny. hopefully

this portion of your destiny will lead to a better, a better michael cohen back, a better donald trump, a better united states of america, and a better world. >> do you feel you are better michael cohen mac? >> different. those words hit me the same way now as it did back then. i tell you, a lot of people don't know this, that night he called me after, not to talk about the hearing, just to ask me if i was okay. i said to him, one day i will be i don't know how long it will take, but one day i will be.

i'm not there yet. i am far from okay, hopefully his words come to fruition one day. >> when you say you want peace, you say you will never get peace as long as donald trump is here. >> i don't believe i ever will. >> make you for being with us this morning. next, a quick programming note be sure to watch msnbc special prosecuting donald trump. our colleagues have a lot of great insight about the trial including michael cohen's neck roll. we will be back. and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain,

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a biscuit for the "new york times", she has been inside the courtroom for the bulk of this trial and for the past four weekends. we are on the other side. you all heard our interview with michael cohen, i wonder what your reaction is? >> i have to say, of all the people who have taken the hits over the years, michael is up there. to watch him on the stand and see what he was put through they kept trying to baby him and kept trying to provoke him and he withstood it he was cool, calm and collected. between him and stormy daniels, who was also another person they try to provoke and debate and get a reaction out of, i'm going to don my cap. both of them in the courtroom and outside of the courtroom are part of the reason we are here yet they have stood up but they have gone on the record and they called these crimes out. their testimony helped seal

this deal along with david pecker , who, in my opinion was the star witness. he has been put through, michael, as he was telling everyone, he went to jail. david pecker and, has a no prosecution agreement. of all the people that took the hits and stood up for it, my respect to michael and stormy. >> i think there are a lot of aspects in this case, the twists and turns were very important. the coach wrote about how this could have been -- a case built

around michael cohen mac was not strong reliable enough to warrant this watershed moment in american history. you were in that courtroom, a fixture if you will, sitting there doing the writing and analysis and trying to take it all in. is that an assessment that you could conclude that there were lanes available to the defense that would have put michael cohen back in a different box in terms of how the jurors viewed him, thereby resulting in acquittal or hung jury? >> i think michael cohen was a very complicated witness. he has a record that is not great. stormy daniels is complicated. what was hard about this case and his heart about a lot of criminal prosecutions, the witnesses are often difficult. they have criminal backgrounds, they lie and cheat and steal.

usually when you end up in a courtroom for one reason or another you have done something. that was difficult, particularly, i was listening to commentary on fox news about how this case was built on all of these undesirable people, why were they there? they were there because donald trump rocked them to us. they were a part of his world. michael cohen was hired because he was willing to live for donald trump. >> if it was not an affair, we never would have met stormy daniels. >> i think of michael cohen back on the stand. before the trial started he was the former da and he looked at it and he was worried michael cohen mac could be a hand grenade. i just think how michael cohen

handled himself on the stand. i think that carried the day. he was incredibly composed. i was surprised seeing it. i watched his twitter feed and listened to his podcast. he is a very opinionated person. his performance on the stand was incredible. he had some punches that were thrown at him that were landed by donald trump lawyers. in the end, not only was his performance incredible, it was more than a performance, it was backed up by documents. his ability to speak to the documents and other witnesses came in and backed him up and backed up the documents. >> he was the narrator and david pecker was the star witness. >> the way this was set up and lined up, we had david pecker as the ultimate because of what

he was telling us. >> does that make him a ninja turtle? >> i guess so. >> the way this was set up with david pecker being the first witness and then parlaying that into stormy daniels into these witnesses who were there. the publishers, the books who were the people who were reading from donald trump's books and hanging in on his own words, he talks about signing every check. by the time we got to michael cohen, the story had been lined up. also witnesses were acknowledging that michael cohen mac was complicated that he had lied. in the jury's mind, a lot of these faults had been spoken about and that was just brilliant on how they were able

to structure the case. >> i thought there was a gift at the end. michael cohen mac was not all roses and sunshine. there was tough cross- examination that happened and i was thinking, that is pretty much the last thing the jury is going to hear before we go into deliberations. everybody was worried about it. the defense, donald trump's legal team, instead of saying they have not proven their case let's take this to the jury room, they come on in with bob costello. it does not even matter what he was there to testify for. the impression that is left when you step back from him is he was combative and heoff the judge. >> he was bombastic , he did what they thought michael cohen mac was going to do. >> he was the avatar for donald trump, he was not going to take the stand and he never was, all you foos fools who think he was, stop. the reality is that was donald

trump's voice. he wanted that petulance in your face judge, screw you kind of attitude. he wanted to see that because he could not do it himself. >> he himself has done a brilliant job in handling the court and handling the proceedings great he just lost it in that moment it was like clear the court, i need to speak to costello and read him the riot act. costello continue to behave like that augustine at the jury went out before the holiday weekend and i kept thinking that is the last thing that we are thinking about. >> what happened in the deliberation room is okay. it is the window that we get when the jury asked for clarification

which is the note asking for david testimony really clarified that they were utilizing that to connect the dots. >> that was a key moment for me when we got that note. they were asking for four things and three of them relate to david pecker . also the meeting in 2015 when he says opening the eyes and ears of the campaign. i thought to myself, they already have gotten to a conclusion and they are trying to ensure that they are raising from a misdemeanor to a felony by ensuring that the conspiracy is totally, and how they get there is through david testimony. he became so key to this case. for someone who goes on the stand and says donald trump is my friend and mentor, i wonder what that conversation is like. >> i think the misdirection was

heavily focused on cohen and the bomb laid with pecker . >> they forgot about david pecker. it came out early on , if you read the indictment, if you will, it was noted in there there was david pecker and a non-prosecutorial agreement, remember we asked him about this and he said it's not about me. >> we have more to talk about including how this conviction destroyed the notion that donald trump is invincible for something he would like you to believe. believe.

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of weightlessly smooth hair that frizz can't beat. new tresemmé keratin smooth collection. take a look at this headline from greg sergeant and the new republic, trumps stunning guilty verdict shatters his aura of invincibility. he goes on to argue that his conviction on 34 felony counts is powerful new information and we should hold institutional democrats responsible if they don't use it ruthlessly and effectively. i am all about the ruthlessly and effectively. it is time to throw down on this. we have folks out here talking about some crazy, we should not let trump go to jail and

president biden should not say anything about this. no. the man is convicted. politics here is right with the opportunity what say you? >> again, this goes into the guessing game, does he get some jail time for this? what does that look like? i have been thinking about that. i go back to when the case first started and everyone was like, there is no way he will get any time. i think there is a possibility that looks 30 days or 60 days. part of it is his behavior great i am thinking not so much showing remorse, he is still at a point where any person that has been accused is not convicted, if they are going to go on appeal not to say i'm sorry i did that, he is not showing remorse, by the way, he

violated the gag order multiple times and he is also a candidate running for election. this is the case of election interference. we do not know what will happen, let's say he does get 30 days, what does that look like? i think that is 30 days and then it will be served on appeal. he is not going to be hauled off. we will not be seeing that. i think that is important to say that because there is confusion. >> there is confusion about that, there is confusion about whether or not someone can run for president of the united states when they are convicted of the crime. there has been confusion on if he can vote. in some ways, if there is a silver lining it's forcing interest in our justice system. >> i think the frustration for a lot of people, you mentioned is tough on, he never faces accountability and once again, he has been convicted of 34

felony counts he is still able, because of the money he has behind him, the legal system will continue to kick this down the road. we saw with a civil trial he did put up hundreds of millions of dollars and there was accountability. that will go on appeal and these things play out. when you're wealthy you can play them out. >> the billionaire is the convicted felon. he now has been 34 counts convicted. >> i just want to say to everyone in the country -- there is confusion around can he still run for president? yes, nothing is in the constitution that says you cannot run for president if you have been convicted of a felony. you cannot serve in the military, -- you cannot travel to certain countries, there are many things, you cannot vote in many states except vermont and

maine, everywhere else in this country your voting rights are taken away. donald trump is still a candidate but i think that is one thing the republicans and democrats have agreed on, this conviction, while important, does not change the fact that he will still be on the ballot. >> i think something that has come about from the the verdict , which i am pleased about is people don't understand, yes there was 34 counts of falsification of business records, what is the wider picture. this was a scheme to influence the 2016 election. this was a plot and conspiracy to influence the 16 election by robbing the public of information that would help inform their vote. for people who have gone to the polls in november, that is something that they can think about. they did not have information the last round and they are privy to that information i think their reasoning is, we

just thought it was about a star and business records , there was a whole scheme going on here with a tablet professor and with the president to influence the 2016 election. i think people are appreciating the magnitude of what this was all about. >> that's what we were talking about at the top of the hour. were you on the line? >> here is the bigger thing. it kind of goes back to the point that greg sergeant was making. the democrats and everyone else who is fighting for this country in this upcoming election have to be clarifying right now at this hour of what this is. to your point, our constitution does not prevent, preclude or otherwise far donald trump from prosecuting a case for the

presidency. we, as citizens and the system itself has to account for that, that he is going to engage and use the very institutions against the system itself in order for him to win this office. >> he did it before. >> before he was convicted on 34 counts, we know the track record. the ruthless and effective part for me is important. i am concerned that the ruthless part is what got everyone nervous. we do not know what that means. what it looks like and feels like to me is the accountability piece politically. the judicial system has helped him accountable. had we politically hold him accountable? >> i don't know the answer to this but i was listening carefully to abided yesterday. joe biden got up, president of the united states and talked about this. what he talked about is the

rule of law. he talked about how the jury the 12 pairs of donald trump had done their job and he talked about through that infrastructure. what i am wondering, i don't think yesterday was the form for him to do this. that has been the messaging. it was about how justice was served, not about the underlying facts of the case. i am wondering, will democrats and others going forward, we have several months until the election, are they going to talk about the underlying facts of the case and what he did and will they weaponized that in battleground states? or are they sticking to more elevated argument? >> cliffhanger. >> i think that will be part of the challenge, how do you utilize both legs one is above and what is below. we have to go.

lachlan cartwright and suzanne craig, thank you very much . we have another hour coming up and there's so much more ahead on the weekend. there is a lot more. grab that third cup of coffee because you will need it. it.

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