welcome back to the weekend. new this morning, donald trump telling lies. that is not that new. he is lashing out at the federal government in his first interview after being convicted

of falsifying business records. take a listen. >> it is a scam. the republican party, they stick together in this. it is weaponization of the justice department and of the fbi. that is all coming out of washington. take a look at who opened the case. i'm not allowed to talk about it because i have a gag order. >> joining us is former fbi council andrew wiseman and a law professor at new york university and our msnbc legal analyst, legal assistant attorney general mary mccord. andrew and mary are the cohosts of the award-winning podcast "prosecuting donald trump." >> we talked about a tax on the justice system. i want to get to that. i think it is important to underscore that, in addition to attacking the judge in the doj, he is also attacking the jury

itself. these are just average citizens that did their civic duty and he is still going after them in the aftermath. >> one of the things notable is that this jury valued and honored its oath more than a lot of people in the united states congress and certain judges and justices. they really stood up and did their job. it is normal for a defendant to say, it was unfair. that is what they do. they don't usually own what they are doing when they go to trial. for donald trump to say that is fine. that the statement is false but that is what defendants do. but the tell is that, if he really wanted to instead of saying it is the witchhunt, why doesn't he delay three of the trials? with the florida jurors, they will be my people. is not going to go to trial there or in georgia or in d.c.?

that is what just happened in new york. a jury of 12 people come with his input, found unanimously beyond a reasonable doubt, and for those of us in the courtroom, it is easy to put a label on this and say that it is unfair and rigged. but let me give you one example. david pekker, his friend was largely not examined. at no point did he say did he lie. or did we have this conspiracy to fix the election. >> that is crazy. mary, let's talk about the new felon in are midst. i think it is important to point out that donald trump is a felon.

a felon for those of you know the need that help. the new york city probation department will conduct an interview and generate a sentencing recommendation for justice juan merchan. this will be a moment where donald trump essentially confronts not just what got him into the situation but his whole life story. the aspect of this process is very probing. during the interview, a convict can try to make a good impression and explain why he or she deserves a lighter punishment. i was a good member of the community before this happened and all that stuff. but it is a chance for them to create an impression as judge juan merchan decides to meat out the punishment. how do you think that will go? >> i can hardly imagine mr. trump sitting for that and it

going well. one thing that is so different about the case, then the cases of so many individuals who do have this interview before they go to sentencing and for who it is so important is that we know so much about mr. trump's history. the whole country does in the whole world does. and normally is more common for a defendant that has gone through trial and found guilty by a jury that the probation officer and the judge don't really know that much about the defendant as a person other than their crimes, the things that the evidence will put on about at the trial. it is important to convey with their upbringing was like or what their education was like or what challenges they faced in life and what challenges they overcame and life. whether they are thought by others in the community to be good people or whether they expressed remorse, et cetera. we don't need that for donald trump. it is already known. it seems almost a little silly to go through the process with respect to him. but when we do get in front --

when he gets in front of judge juan merchan, the things that typically, somebody would get credit for, i just think some of those things would be lacking. things like accepting responsibility. >> the man is saying -- donald trump is claiming he did nothing wrong. he said it today. >> the judge could decide to say house arrest or jail. >> i'm okay with it. iso one of my lawyers the other day on television saying, you don't want to do that to the press? i said you don't dig for anything. that is the way it is. >> the other one i want to play was he said, i did absolutely nothing wrong. think of it. >> he is entitled as a matter of his appeal to be contesting the cruelty verdict. but accepting the gender --

jury's rendering of the verdict is core to our system. and the judge will be looking at things like the reason for the scheme. the judge will look to see what other cases have been weeded out for falsification of business records and what were they falsifying books often times the motive is financial gain. here it is completely different. it is undermining the results of a presidential election. very significant. there are many things the judge will be looking at. i have a hard time thinking that the interview with the pretrial service folks will be that meaningful. >> feel free to weigh and on this question. >> the grounds for appeal, it is hard to see that they are terribly meritorious. >> what they are going to say is the judge had a conflict of interest. >> that has already been ruled

on. this is a diminished this amount of money. we are talking about less than $50. and it is a mistake. it has already been decided and it's not going to go anywhere. the one thing i would say is that for those people who were in the courtroom, i'm not saying there is a transcript of everything but if you are in the courtroom, this judge was so remarkable. the idea that $35 made any difference, he was so careful and ruled in favor of donald trump on all sorts of things. >> in part, because of an awareness that this could move to an appeal. >> absolutely. to make sure was a clean trial. and i think that it is a different role. his role is to be a judge and to be impartial and to weigh what is fair to defendants. that is what his role is. i don't think that is a terribly good ground. i think there will be legal ground about the nature of the

charge. i think factually, that is where i see it being the most weak for making any claim here. the judge is experienced and well respected. >> people are going to be around the kitchen tables with trump supporters who will repeat everything they are hearing from donald trump. so let's just get into it which is one of the things they will say. this is weak case law. it is so thin and shallow. how is it possible that the first person brought up on this is the former president of the united states? >> not the first person. false business records are charged all the time. it is true that -- i was responding to this friday where they said these charges are sort of tailored to donald trump. i said all charges are tailored to the defendant. i was like, what does that mean? i was trying to related to these two organized crime cases.

charges were tailored to the facts. when we looked at enron ceos, those charges were tailored to those facts. here, as mary alluded to, these charges of false business records are tailored to these facts. and frankly, as mary said, these facts are much worse than the false business records because the scheme that the jury found, that had to be found by the jury beyond a reasonable doubt. and so i think that claim of, this is unique and different and somehow unfair, i think that is going to fall on deaf years. to be clear, it is so disrespectful of jurors. what they are really saying is that 12 people, average american citizens, we should just disregard. because somehow, even though we were not in court, we know better than jurors who took an

oath of office and should be disregarded. >> the next phase of this, andrew has touched on a little bit. this gets to an appeals process. what does the d.a. do? what does the office to at this point? are they still engaged at that level? will that be driven more by the defense going and making the case versus what we saw in the trial with the prosecution making the case? >> the defendant is the one who will appeal. the defendant will have the opening brief. and because it is up to the defendant to decide what issues he is taking to the court of appeals. i handled appeals for a decade in the u.s. attorney's office defending convictions. what you do then as the prosecutor and with the da's office will do is that they will respond to what is alleged to be the errors pointed out in the original case.

and one thing important to keep in mind is that there might be a lot of possible things that a defendant could appeal on but they need to choose the ones that are loadbearing and would make a difference. even when there are errors like an evidentiary error, it doesn't necessarily mean that it could be reversed. the air could be harmless, right. the defense wants to go for the type of errors that it thinks that if it prevails on, will result in a reversal. >> what mary is saying is that the defense has to be strategic. >> andrew, mary, stick around. we want to discuss the other trump cases and where they stand at this moment. this is the weekend and that's what we do. do. so i smell great all day, all hike, and all night. secret whole body deodorant. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds.

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special counsel jack smith, for the second time, has asked judge eileen cannon to bar trump from making statements that endanger law enforcement in the classified documents case. judge cannon denied the first motion citing a lack of meaningful conferral with the defense. will flow motions follow trump's false and dangerous claims about fbi agents being prepared to kill him during the 2022 rated mar-a-lago even though they had already secured the fact that trump was not even going to be there. >> not even in town.

andrew wiseman and mary mccord are back with us. there we are. >> donald trump said something this morning on that other network about the kind of attorney general he would like. we want to play the sound because i think the dots are connected here. take a listen. >> who do you choose? do you have a name on your list? >> i do have a couple and one in particular. and i made a lot of good choices but i got that one wrong. i was very loyal to one because he was the first senator to endorse me. when the conflict came up, he ran for the hills. and the second one, he ran for the hills. when he heard he was going to be impeached. he was like a different person. i had to get rid of him. >> first of all, he was talking about jeff sessions and he started tweeting nasty things about him starting july 2017. it seems to me, andrew, that

donald trump once an attorney general like the judge she believes he has with eileen cannon in this classified documents case. >> there are two issues there. one is the idea that he is really not good at picking people for his administration. it is basically -- jeff sessions wasn't in a good. his understanding of the department of justice was independent. the idea that he is also bill barr, he is no good because he would go along with an insurrection. no pun intended but that is pretty low bar for the attorney general of the united states. i'm not going to engage in a felony to interfere with democracy. it is incredibly scary to hear that from the leading candidate for the republican party. with respect to judge cannon, i should say mary and i were discussing this on the podcast. i never heard mary as upset.

and it is unbelievable that judge cannon said, i'm rejecting your motion on a technicality that you didn't meet and confer. one, they did meet and confer and the defendants basically said, this is an important -- i will get back to you over the weekend at the end of the weekend. when the application had to do with danger to law enforcement, i think that issue were judge cannon is being cavalier with this claim by jack smith is going to rue the day. because of this is one where she does not rule and jack smith's favor, i can easily see that they will take this up on appeal. this is the kind of issue that is the reason people are in law enforcement, to make sure the safety of the community is

insured and part of the community is law enforcement. so this is one to keep your eye out for in terms of what happens in florida and to expect an appeal to the 11th circuit. final note on that, the 11th circuit has already reversed judge cannon not once but twice. >> we had the special counsel request to impose the gag order on trump over false claims of the fbi raid and we learn from cnbc that the trump classified documents show that cannon is a target of more than 1000 complaints. the appeals court revealed that. where you think this goes from here? >> right now jack smith has come back and re- file the motion to change conditions of release. this is slightly different from asking for a gag order. as folks remember from gag orders issued in the d.c. federal case as well as the case before judge juan merchan, those were things that could be

punished. violations could be punished by contempt separate and apart from the underlying criminal case revoking conditions of release and the underlying criminal case. the motion has been brought as a motion to change his conditions, donald trump's conditions, of release pretrial to require him not to make statements at present an imminent danger to law enforcement. and that is done under the authority of a judge to set conditions of release that are necessary to ensure the safety of any person or the community. that is what jack smith asked for. he has said, we now conferred. and according to judge cannon's ruling, included a certified statement of conferral in a statement requested by former president trump's attorneys, which is that they think that the probation department which normally would be weighing in on conditions of release, should be asked for his opinion on whether these conditions

should be put into mr. trump's conditions of release and if so, how they would be enforced. jack smith already put a footnote in his motion saying, we reached out to the probation office. the probation office said that because mr. trump is out on bond, we don't have any supervised authority over him and we have nothing to say about this unless the judge ordered it. i think the next step to get to your question is will judge cannon do what the defense is asking for, what mr. trump is asking for, and order the probation office to make its own recommendation which again, you can see the delay and mr. trump's attorneys have said, we should not even have to brief the issue until two weeks after the probation office doesn't interview. to your question, talking about more time going by well dangerous and false statements are being made not only by mr. trump book by other people like steve bannon and marjorie taylor greene who have gone so far as to suggest that this was

actually an assassination attempt. >> we have all been so focused on new york as a reminder that there is a lot happening. andrew wiseman and mary mccord, as always, thank you both. be sure to check out the prosecuting donald trump podcast. the latest episode is all about the historic conviction of the former president. scan the qr code on your screen right now with your smart phone camera and start listening today. a quick programming note. be sure to watch tonight's msnbc special, local prosecuting donald trump." 9:00 p.m. eastern and also features andrew wiseman. we will be right back. dangerous ladders. gutter muck. yuck. no wonder you hate cleaning your gutters. good thing there's leaffilter. our patented filter technology keeps leaves and debris out of your gutters forever. guaranteed. call 833- leaffilter to get started. and get the permanent gutter solution that ends clogs for good. they took the time to answer all of our questions.

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that is the chief justice's administrative job so refusing to meet with the body that oversees it and funds it is not smart. the supreme court has put itself in a very, very dangerous position. >> that was democracy duckett founder and front of the show marked elias with us yesterday weighing in on chief justice john roberts' decision to not leave the democrats over the flood controversy. what is next. politico said there are few options to hold alito liable. the house and the senate don't agree on much these days issuing a subpoena to alito. justice roberts, this is so monumental that it could be seen as a separation of power difficult to imagine. >> eric swalwell joins us. a member of the house judiciary committee. welcome, congressman. >> thank you. >> good to see you. >> i'm fired up about this. the speaker of the house mike johnson, he had some thoughts about the supreme court.

i would like to play them for everyone because i am thoroughly confused. i do believe the supreme court should step in. obviously, this is totally unprecedented and it is dangerous to the system i think the justices on the court, i think they are deeply concerned about that as we are. i think they will set this straight. but it is going to take a while. you are right. the process takes a while to play out. this will be overturned but it will just take time to do it. >> the chief justice won't meet with the head of the senate judiciary committee because you know, optics. but somehow these justices are having conversations with the speaker of the house about a case, please, make it make since. this is stressing me out. how is this okay and when of the democrats going to march up to the supreme court and knock on the door and say, we are going to have this discussion right now? >> standing on virtue or being on mount olympus the day after

the election and lose everything and say, but we upheld the independence of the court. that is not going to save us. speaker johnson has back channeled to the court then we should find out about that. we should do everything we can to make sure that they are independent. and by the way, the hypocrisy. we back the blue. we back the blue. the blue go and issue a search warrant on their guy and then they want to defund the police. they say they are all for state rights and then they get a court that overturns roe v wade and now they want a federal abortion ban and then they said the court should be independent and respected but by the way, if we need to, we can back out. it is not about the constitution but serving trump. >> i want to double down and emphasize what symone said. i think it is important for the american people to understand this context. you cannot tell me in the one instance that, we can't account for the behavior and the way

the money flows in and out of this court to certain justices. we don't have an ethical or political obligation to address that with the congress but the chief justice, presumably or some justices, are having a conversation with the speaker of the house about the trump case. and when he says, this will be overturned, so i connect dots. i don't know about you all but i connect dots. johnson says, i think they are deeply combing the justices he spoke to, are deeply concerned about that, this case. really. you had a conversation about the trump case just now. which justices did you talk to? because you know this matter may get in front of that person. so for me, it is not a dilemma for democrats in the senate. this is not a dilemma. you demand the conversation with the chief justice because it is flagrant violation of

crossing political lines. there is not supposed to be conversations about a case that you know will get to them eventually. and when the speaker of the house says, this will be overturned, there is no question about it, i don't understand. >> if republicans had subpoena power and a democratic speaker of the house was saying, we have to back channeled to the court, you think they would say, let's respect the independence of the court? absolutely not. that is not how they work. virtue is not going to serve us well. we have the virtue of actually being on the right side of this. so again, some false modesty that we have about what we should or should not do. that is not working right now. >> i just think the senate needs to go. >> i think we would all like to see some of the energy that republicans are bringing for alvin bragg brought to their colleagues. you have jim jordan calling for

alvin bragg. they are really good at writing letters and less good at passing legislation that helps the american people. but it is a lot of, look over here and not over here. if they applied their outrage to an appearance of bias. not actual bias but an appearance of bias which is the supreme court operating from for recusal, they should be hair on fire about what is happening. >> by the way, if the verdict came back not guilty or if it was a serious hang in the direction of not guilty, you would be justified in saying, let's bring alvin bragg in and asked him questions about why he did this? at least i would give you some benefit of the doubt. but to attacked the verdict is not an attack on alvin bragg are on the doj or on the prosecutors who tried the case or an attack on the judge who presided over it. it is an attack on 12 jurors.

so one ages, and say what you really want to say which is that those jurors come in your minds, are liars and fraudsters. but they won't say that so they will attack everyone else because the truth is, these were donald trump's neighbors. he chose to live in new york city. he committed his crimes in new york city and his neighbors said you are a fraud. >> congress has no jurisdiction over the state courts. i'm like, they think we are stupid i think.'s i'm just here to say, what are the democrats going to do? what is this tragedy? what is happening? i know it is going to be summer. what are democrats going to do? i believe we said yesterday. when they go low, folks have to go toe to toe and i'm not seeing the toe to toe. >> in a senate with subpoena they should go on offense. in house where he can force votes even the minority on

resolutions of century, mr. speaker, when we start talking about you talking about the court and we have the attorney general on tuesday coming in and i promise that it will focus entirely on this case. we should be on offense. always point out that jim jordan is 700 plus days in defiance of his own subpoena. but just like you said, pushed back about this alvin bragg nonsense and make sure voters understand that this is a question of the character of joe biden or the corruption of donald trump. >> i think that is an important framing. when you broaden the lens on other things that are going to be important conversation pieces in the upcoming fight for control of the house, maintaining the senate and holding the white house, narrowly, we were talking with folks this morning about the political side of this and being on the ground.

jamaal bowman, congressman that you know well, was on yesterday talking about the ground game and being on the streets. you always struck me as the guy who understands what it means to be on the streets and talk to voters. how does that play out across the country, particularly in those battleground states with black and brown voters, women voters, et cetera? >> on the street, in a deli, at church, it has to be, who are they fighting for? they spend every day working as a law firm fighting for one person, donald trump and who should they be fighting for, for you, for what you pay at the supermarket and what you pay for healthcare or your childcare. that is what we will focus on. they are focused on trump and we are focused on you. they have shown that will be the priority. >> they are focused on trump and we are focused on you. congressman eric swalwell of california, thank you so much. ahead, they defend at the against donald trump's violent supporters and now they are taking him on direct.

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the loser trump, trump inspired instructions to storm the capital. brave men and women from law enforcement put their lives on the line to defend this country. our democracy. they are the true heroes. >> outside the trump courthouse, robert de niro defended the law enforcement officers that protected the capital during the january 6 the insurrection amid some very crazy honking. those officers are going on the road with the biden/harris

campaign to talk about the dangers of what a second trump term would be. one of those officers is joining me now. officer harry done. >> the monitor was halfway across the world. >> henry, it is good to have you here. let's set the scene for folks. the honking notwithstanding. there was a clear message being sent by both you and robert de niro and others about what this moment meant with his conviction and what you as a police officer went through and are still going through in many respects. now that you are no longer on the force. talk about what we saw there with robert de niro. >> the trial was going on. we were there because there

were 100,000 cameras there and we wanted to make our point that donald trump is the biggest threat to our democracy. we were not talking about the specifics of the case. i couldn't tell you much about it to be honest. i do know the man that was sitting in the courtroom has a good chance of becoming the president in november and we have to do whatever we can do to stop him from a publishing that. >> hello. alicia menendez. good to see you. you have trump of course saying that he would pardon a large portion of the january 6th rioters. i wonder how that sits with you. >> everybody is saying democrats need to move on from january 6 and joe biden is running. donald trump is running on january 6th. talking about pardoning the insurrectionists and the rioters and the people who assaulted law enforcement that day. let's call it what it is. we cannot forget what happened that day and we can't forget what could possibly happen

again. we have to do everything we can do to keep him out of the white house and as far away from the white house as possible. >> last week, you were not just outside the courthouse with robert de niro. you and other former capitol hill police officers who defended the capital january 6 have been on the road. you were in phoenix thursday. this is what you and the former officer had to say about why you are doing this. >> this is not a drill. donald trump is the single greatest threat to the united states of america. we cannot let him anywhere near the oval office ever again. >> he is no longer a question of what he will do. he is telling us what he is going to do. >> i spent a lot of time working at democratic politics. i cannot remember a time where i have seen police officers so forcefully go out and campaign for a democrat in this way.

and i think it is important to do. i think the congressman made the point about backing the blue and a lot of republicans. january six is a very clear example of an opportunity to back the blue. and led by donald trump, it seems republicans are doing everything they can to get the proverbial finger pointed to law enforcement. again, calling the january 6 insurrectionist hostages. >> he also champions the political violence that we saw on january 6th and we continue to see around the country. he calls the people patriots and calls men and women in the military suckers and losers. that is rhetoric that he says. i will say that when we were out there in phoenix and in nevada, we were greeted by law enforcement and we had the opportunity to sit down with some of them and they

appreciate what we are doing. it is not all law enforcement. a lot of individuals we talk to that we get to see on the road, they appreciate what we are doing and they are supporting joe biden. that is one of the reasons i will continue to do whatever i can do to keep president trump far away from the oval office. >> let's talk about that a little bit. you ran for congress in maryland and it came at a very strong second and crowded field. that spoke to me as someone who is the former state party chairman in maryland and understanding the political dynamics there. that was very impressive. there was something about what you were saying that allowed you to get as close as you did. translate that across the country. you are going out and talking to voters about the biden campaign and the urgency of the moment and the importance of

democracy. and what specifically happened to you on the front lines on january 6th. how are voters responding? particularly voters that might be a little bit like i'm not sure. >> i don't think the choice could be more clear about what we do november. when i ran my own campaign, i had to come up with policies for inflation in my thoughts about the border and things like that. now working for biden, i can go out there and push back about the narrative about what did or didn't happen on january 6th and the actual threat. when i was knocking on doors, people were telling me, we are worried about donald trump being in office again. not just inflation or grocery bills are high. not just that. but the single biggest threat to our democracy is donald trump and it resonates with people and worries people. i think we need to continue to get out there and pushback and talk about the threat that exists your people are aware of

it. people also have a short-term memory. we can't let people forget. >> to narrow it a little more, that conversation in a predominantly blue state and i hate using these terms but for purpose of conversation, in a more blue state is one thing. when you are in a state that is not as blue like wisconsin or michigan where there are shades of red. >> arizona. >> same response or different response or how are people responding to the idea you are putting out there about why biden's reelection is important? >> donald trump scares them because they don't know what he is going to do. he is telling us what he is going to do. he said it. it's not msnbc talking points. donald trump said he will be a dictator on day one. those are his words. he is dangling pardons in front of voters for the january 6th reuters.

and it bothers people. it isn't about how much money we are spending on xyz but literally what the country was founded on with democracy. the threat of that not existing anymore scares people. >> we appreciate you being here. thank you so much for being here with us. us. we have much more ahead, focus right here on msnbc's "the weekend." weekend." this is remington. ...he's a member of the family, for sure. we always fed them kibble— it just seemed like the thing to do. but ...he was getting picky

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even as the pipit off of big news this past week and what happened in new york, we are reminded of what is happening in florida and that there are multiple paths to accountability and we are reminded that some of that is happening at the supreme court. we need our eyes trained on each of these cases but we also need to keep in our peripheral view all these other stories that are moving at the same time. >> you do. you really have nicely woven that together. when you look at it individually, some things you can go, not so much. but when you put it together, you begin to not just see the pattern but the importance of the pattern and the importance of the behavior of certain actors and why we talk about them and why we try to explain it and we get it in front of folks so they can better understand.

when harry dunn left, symone and i would like, we scurried. and many are generally concerned about what happens next trick there is a pattern being set up and there are narratives being told to us of what tomorrow will look like. and i think that for voters out there, i get it. inflation, i get it. gas prices. the most money i have to fill my car. i'm sorry but when you tell me you are going to be a dictator, i will pay a little more to keep that from happening. i think that translation becomes very important. >> i thought gas was going down. >> and by the way, it's not going to change if donald trump becomes president. >> that is the point, alicia. >> like the stock market, he wants to take credit. it is insane. constant gas lighting by donald trump.

i think americans are struggling with this issue of accountability. like a lot of the things that are happening right now, it's like these things don't happen in america. we are not used to these things. i want people to take a moment and literally pull up a google search about other democracies that have gone through similar things or had to hold a former president accountable in the legal system. it has happened. in france and italy and israel. in october, benjamin netanyahu might not be prime minister. he is going through a trial that is literally on hold. i think americans regularly feel -- that everything is just amazing and america does everything better. what we have not been able to do in the quest for the more perfect union is this issue of accountability when wrong has been done by a former leader of

the country. leader of the free world. like nixon was pardoned because people thought, i wanted to tear the country apart. america is stronger then i think we are giving ourselves credit for. and i want people to remember that. and it is the people who have the power. the voters are what matter and the people, just like the folks in the jury box, they spoke this last week and the people will speak again in november. i am praying that what they have to say defense democracy. >> and you have to stop being lazy about democracy. it is not convenient. it is requiring work. it requires being honest about the work. you all know what needs to happen. that is how the founders gave it to us. we make it happen. tomorrow looks like how we wanted to look and not how one

individual wants it to look. that is the difference between us and success and us and something that is not quite success. >> before we get to tomorrow, we have ali joined by the executive vice president to talk about the conviction of donald trump. we will be right back. back.

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