the fixer, when they hear from the henchman, when they hear from the guys that did the dirty work for the kingpin. >> watch prosecuting donald trump, witnessing history tonight on 9:00 p.m. eastern and streaming on peacock. and, before we go tonight, i would like to wish a happy birthday to the mother of our fabulous senior producer belinda walker. barbara walker is celebrating her 80th birthday today, oh, get down. and having fun surrounded by loving family and good food and great dance tunes, party on mrs. walker. party on. that will do it for me. thanks for watching. i will be back next saturday and sunday at 6:00p.m. eastern. don't forget to follow us on x, instagram and more. catch clips on the show on youtube. listen to every episode of our show as a podcast for free. just scan the qr code on the

screen to follow. stay right here on the screen to follow. stay right here ayman is up next. good evening, tonight, the coordinated attacks on the justice system, a campaign of vengeance. trump is finally held accountable. a i knew investigation that looking into the efforts to keep the criminal court off of its back and harvard's new policy of silence that reveals a sad truth about where we are in america. showing empathy is now somehow controversial. let's do it. >> immediately after trump made history last week becoming the first u.s. president to ever be convicted of a felony. republicans rush to his defense and they have not left his side

ever since. we saw the ex-president and his ride or die followers echoing the same. >> people get it. it is a scam the republican party they stuck, they stick together. representation of the justice department, the fbi, that is all coming out of washington. >> i think anybody who is not speaking up in the face of really something that should never again have seen the light of day trial never brought against any other person aside be side donald trump. >> but. >> do you accept the fact that they are guilty? >> no, peter. i disagree. i jury can only act within the constraints that the judge puts on it. this case was rigged from the beginning. >> lone republicans like maryland governor larry hogan that had the gull to respect the verdict were swiftly

oustersized. saying you just ended the campaign. they declined to say if he would support his run. trump's allies in congress are exhausting all of their options to fight the justice system from speaker mike swron son saying the supreme court should step in to save their dear leader to judiciary chairman sending a letter to manhattan -- da bragg follow it. >> now, that they are following in line same can not be said for the democratic party. biden spoke about it and as the campaign grows aggressive. hakeen jeffreys was asked about it today. >> do i want to drill down on that and excuse my delay and

the satellite. those close to the biden campaign tell me that trump's conviction will not be a central message of this campaign. is that the right approach. >> the "new york times" said 50 democrats found they are hungry for bid tone get more aggressive and make trump's convictions one of the corner stones of his 2024 campaign. adam schiff said as much during an interview earlier today. >> i think the day on the conviction or the day there after the president staying above the fray and demonstrating his respect and expressing his respect for the jury system. but i think the president should be leaning into this going forward. his competitor is a convicted felon. >> joining me now to discuss this and more. david heppedder son, civil

rights attorney and a former prosecutor. nbc daily columnist. former assistant and cohost of the hash tag sisters in love podcast. democrats have been freaking out over biden's re-election prospects given his polling and fundraising numbers lagging behind donald trumps and the question is, wouldn't it be the best time to double down on, you know, his attacks against trump? seize the opportunity, go on the offense, fund raise on it. stick it to him? >> they should make donald trump's first name convicted felon. even on policy. do not ignore the other things, convicted felon, trump, wants it. over and over again and sell

merchandise instead of 35 should be 34k. he do the debates would the parole officer allow him to leave the state? when americans are going to think who they want the question is deep down. do you want to represent the united states of america on the word stage a man convicted of 34 felonies? people that do not follow it, around the edges, i don't think so. when they follow my showed the last couple of days they were giddy. they won. holding trump accountable made them happy. the one thing that is due intentionally increasing excitement to vote and vote against trump. >> david, let me step back from the politics and get your thoughts as a lawyer. what are your thoughts when you get trump to portray himself as the victim in all of this. he hauled in a massive amount of fundraising because he has been able to project this victimization part of his narrative. give to us if you will.

>> speaking as a lawyer i agree with former president trump. he got an unfair trial. it was unfair in his favor because he was afforded luxuries that no one else would have been. anyone else would have been incarcerated for violating a gag order. not a maybe, not a possibly. you would have been incarcerated for the duration of the trial the first time it happened and jury selection. i never picked a jury, i tried about 80 cases to a verdict where the judge just says who here does not think they can be fair and impartial? hands go up, excused t. normally takes more than that to get excused from jury duty. everyone who wanted to get out of it was allowed to get out of it beginning on the first day. when they asked about the mistrial based on the way daniels testified. the judge said if you will object more i would sustain them i am surprised you are not

objecting. dr. merchan bent over backwards to give him a fair trial that it is unfair to everybody else. >> let's turn to how other legal experts have been responding. you have, for example, new york magazine. one expert laying out how the jury did its job and did it well there are other outstanding issues with the judge including the judge donating $35 to the democratic party back in 2020. yes $35. an ethic's board dismissed this complant. what do you make of these kinds of critiques. do they have any validity at all in the way that the trial played out? >> these are only for political purposes. to go to the base. the donald trump base. they have nothing to do with law or ethics. nothing to do with the appearance of impro prity. it was not directed to biden as

i understand it. other condition. and it ignores all of the ethics that really show a possible appearance of impro priity. and of it. the judges are going to sit on a decision about the january 6th events about the immunity. things that they chorally got the appearance of impro prity. it is not a serious argument. it needs to be answer. but it is part of what the press publishes that trump and his supporters say. >> we will delve into that later in the program. i want to get your thoughts on this. the analyst said quote the da's charges pushed the outer boundaries of the law and due process. perhaps suggesting normally these charges would not have been brought to bear. what do you make of that? >> reporter: what i make of it,

i agree. we don't have a playbook for convicting former presidents. so, you have not had a defendant like him before. it stands to reason. let's go back, talking about mob movies looking for every excuse to bring them up. al capone went down for something else. how do you prevent them from harming the public that is what they did with trump. they looked for a means of prosecuting him. let's be honest with this. shouldn't there be law that prevent people from trying to influence e electrics and paying people off? to the extent there are laws on the books for that purpose, shouldn't it be enforced? what you hear legal analysts providing in favor of trump is incomplete analysis. i keep hearing about bias.

how did it go in unfair harm. i have not heard an argument. >> now, let's talk about fox and friends about trump as if he has no idea that his previous comments have been recorded. >> you famously said regarding hillary clinton lock her up. you decline to do that as president. >> i beat her. it is easier when you win. i am not sure i can answer the question. hillary clinton. i did not say lock her up the people say lock her up. >> he said i did not say lock her up. luckily for us we have the tape. take a listen to this. >> i tell you something, yes, you should lock them up. lock up the bidens, lock uphillary. >> yeah. we all know he said it. are you kidding me? that was his trade mark. mexico is going to build a wall

and lock uphillary clinton. michael flin went out there and said lock them up. he was all about it. it did not happen for whatever reason. there is a deeper question. does trump truly not remember saying that? and there is a lot of signs about him and what he says and i am not a doctor, some cognative issues, and he does not look well, either. he said it, we know it, trade mark of his campaign, now to say he did not say it, it is ridiculous. >> and also he thinks his followers, his voters are going to live in their, you know, isolation chamber. they will not see this clip on msnb. they don't watch msnbc so he can lie to them on fox and friends and nobody will hold him accountable, certainly not on that network >> thank you very much. next up, rules for the but not for me. trump's outcry about his

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>>if they can do this to me they can do this to anyone. that is donald trump asking in other words, isn't this america? where the rich and powerful are protected class not to the justice system like the rest of us the ex-president received the guilty verdict in the same

manhattan courthouse where the central park 5 were wrongly convicted in the beating and rape of a white woman jogging. at the time, trump put out a newspaper ad calling for the execution of the five black and latino teenager. that is why it is rich to hear him 34 years later calling himself a political prisoner in. trump and his campaign are engaging in lazy stereo typing, heavy-handedly trying to use his guilty verdict to connect with black and brown voters. >> they are feeding him segments of the population that he might not have had in 2016 and 2020. for the first time they realize the system is coming down, he is the victim, haddie is the victim that oftentimes their communities were. you see them looking to the african american vote. swing over to trump in spades. >> david henderson, david, i will start with you, your response to the eric trump

click slip and the lazy spin. >> reporter: my response is my attempt not to laugh when i see those clips. first i love that he thinks it is news for people that look like me if it happens to him it can happen to anybody. i did not realize republicans were as concerned as they appeared to be about the rights of individuals of those with criminal histories including those who are convicted felons. what we are seeing here, not related to this verdict that we received last week or these verdicts. but it is part of an ongoing trend where end republicans ignore the rule of law when they disagree with the outcome. this president is more dangerous than it appears. reminds me of something that happened down here in extexas where a man was convicted for shooting and killing a black lives protester but the republican governor of the state of texas decided i do not like the verdict soy am a quiting this individual.

former president trump is making similar arguments after he just got convicted. amazing how quickly republicans are lining up. again, as a civil rights lawyer, this will not be limited to him. therefore, i find it a relief that they will realize maybe we will reexam a number of convictions of people that might be up against the law under circumstances we find unfair. >> the racism is in the insigne wages saying trump is like those that are rounded up or not getting fair due process. it is almost insulting to the intelligence of americans that he would imply giving him political sway or clout with black voters like selling sneakers saying there is some kind of connection. >> he does it for his base. i don't think black and brown people going he is just like us

because he is a billionaire charged with, for example, charged with over 30 counts of espionage. find me another case is not sitting in a prison cell awaiting their trial date. you will not find it. ridiculous. you show the ad theput up in "new york times" for the central park 5. he called for the death penalty and they were not convicted yet. they were exonerated by dna. he called black lives matter a symbol of hate. he is a white nationalist and cares about himself, his kids are like that. today, this is his point. the republicans that reject this. the results, the jury system, my question is, what part of our constitution, our rule of law, our system does maga embrace? the answer is, what trump says. whatever trump says they embrace. reject every part, constitution, rule of law. a dangerous place. one party that believes in the rule of the law and the other

believes in trump. >> they embrace what trump says and what favors them. if it benefits them they will go along with it. the system does not always benefit the rich and the powerful. it begs the question of central park called the verdict karma. david, what do you make of that? >> i am sorry, i thought we were going to see a clip. >> my bad, my bad. he call today karma. your thoughts it is a full circle moment for a guy that called for the death penalty as dean was saying for these teenagers before they were convicted, now getting a taste of justice and accountability. >> i think it is the beginnings of karma. if it is karma we will see what results from the verdict. not sure it is the justice that

we should receive. i will give you an example. judge desantis where trump is a resident we will say the man has the right to vote here in florida. why does that stand out so much, under florida law if you are a convicted felon you can not vote until your sentence is completed and if the sentence is completed is a process. desantis is saying, hang on a second, the man was not convicted here in florida. he was convicted in new york and they have liberal laws, in new york you can vote unless you are in prison. therefore, it would be wrong for us not to apply liberal's democratic laws to my republican friend down here in florida. when i see outcomes like that are on the horizon it is hard for me to think of this as karma. what he is doing is doubling down on the end justice and the inequitable treatment people when they are rich and powerful. >> that is a good point. he wants trump to be able to

vote in florida the game governor in florida who was running up black people in front of the cameras who had, perhaps, previous convictions from voting. again are another republican double standard. >> they only care about trump. i hope people grasp this. a reason party, that cares about donald trump antidemocratic party. if there was real karma donald trump will go to jail. he is convicted of 34 felonies, i urge people, email me, tell me where you find someone convicted of 34 fell flees and each fell -- felonies and each felony worth four years in jail and they don't get any. the special treatment is despicable. i know people call my show. a rich white guy does not go to jail. the only one bernie madoff because he stole money from other rich guys.

you steal it from poor people you get to run for president and buy a country club. i want trump to be treated like everyone else but our system bent over backwards to protect him. david, really quickly how does it play out on july eleventh in terms of what he might get? >> you can not send him to prison because if you go to prison with the secret service detail i will argue that is not the same going into prison. mob movies earlier it locks like sendy polly to prison in the movie good fellas, he gets a special type of time. with that in mind, mercharn is a n whatever you think about cohen and i have lots of opinions as a trial witness but he is an amazing punishment witness. at the end of the day he pled

guilty, remorseful for what he did and he went to jail. it is difficult to justify not sending former president trump there. >> he was the unindicted co-co- conspirator -- co-conspirator one. -- co-conspirator one. are period-proof. and sneeze-proof. and sweat-proof. they're leakproof underwear, from knix. comfy & confident protection that feel just like normal. with so many styles and colors to choose from, switching is easy at knix.com okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy.

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. when the international chief prosecutor issued a arrest. the statement had a warning. quote, i insist that all attempts to impede, init imidate or improperly influence the officials of this court must cease immediately. now, thanks to a new bombshell joint investigation from the guardian plus 972 magazine and

local call we know what he was referring to. israel's newly uncovered secret war against the international criminal court. that is according to several sources familiar with the campaign. last week's warrants where the icc's year's long probe into israel's conduct in palestinian territories. back in 2017, 20 -- 2015 that they look into it. it was spearheaded by the former head of the intelligence agency according to several sources briefed on the operation. the guardian details how cohen ambushed bens so, uda in the bizarre episode in the

manhattan hotel sweet. three of those sources familiar with the disclosures to the icc about the matter said, this is just one of several occasions when cohen urged him not benzuda. there were three encounters by the two. all initiated by cohen and his behavior was concerning to icc officials. sources even liking his behavior to stalking. one occasion cohen is alleged to presented bensouda of photographs with her husband that were taken when they were visiting london. they told the guard yen israeli intelligence obtained a cache of material including transcripts. according to icc officials they

threatened bensouda saying you should help us and let us take care of you. you don't want to get into things that could compromise your security or that of your family. those are the kind of scare tactics you would expect from a mob boss not high ranking government official. israel's pressure campaign was far beyond one prosecutor to dozens of other international officials related to the probe. human rights groups that provided the prosecutor's office with the attacks became targets of the operations. according to numerous sources, they wanted to delegitimize the groups that i were mobilized at the highest branches, the intelligence community and the powerful military. it went to the very top. the prime minister benjamin netanyahu said to have taken a keen interest in the campaign sending intelligence teams instructions in areas of

interest regarding their monitoring of icc officials. the pressure campaign did not end in june of 2021 when he replaced bersouda. intelligence continued to follow the activities. despite all of this, years of threats and acts of intimidation against the icc, the court's investigation was through to the very end. ultimately issuing the arrest warrants for benjamin netanyahu and defense minister as well as three hamas leaders for war crimes and crimes against humanity. we should note the israeli prime minister office called the allegations made in the joint report unfounded. and the army remied surveilling the officials. and article 70. that the treaty established the

court with. only time will tell if more charges are to come you can not intimidate your way out of accountability. not intimidate your way out of accountability. o, i figured it wasn't a big deal. then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light- headedness can come and go. but if you have afib, the risk of stroke is always there. if you have one or more symptoms, get checked out. holding off on seeing a doctor won't change whether or not you have afib. but if you do, making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk. contact a doctor and learn more at notimetowait.com

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st. jude is hope for every child diagnosed with cancer because the research is being shared all over the world. . before the break i shared new reporting with israel's secret years spying campaign and hacking intimgation efforts against the court. earlier i had the chance to

speak with an associate of international criminal law at the university of milan and senior legal advisory to the center for constitutional human rights. professor. thank you very much for joining us this evening. let's start with that new investigation regarding israel's almost decade long covert war on the icc and intelligence and harassment campaign managed, really, from the top. according to that report. have you seen anything like this before or experienced anything like this as well? >> reporter: no. what we have seen in the past week is something that had been, in a way anticipated by those who work closely with the international criminal court. but we have not seen anything similar. we know that already two years ago, actually, the news was ready to be published by the

israeli newspaper. now we know that they also got threatened and intimidated quite heavily so they refrained to publish the story that just came out now. there was the request of the warrant of arrest for the prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, and minister of defense. >> the intelligence that the israeli government on be tained in these methods have been used to open investigations into alleged war crimes as an attempt to prove that israel's legal system is capable of holding its own to account. does not need the icc to interfere. based on this new reporting and the levels of the israeli government was willing to quash these investigations. how can we trust them to hold their own leaders responsible? is that even possible that israel can investigate itself

and hold its officials responsible? >> reporter: no. the answer is a simple no. honestly it is something that for people that deal with international crimes and in particular those kind of crimes that are committed pursue ant to a pursuant to the highest order we know it is not an exception. normally that is why we need international courts and tribunals, exactly, to investigate and prosecute these kinds of crimes. when it comes to israel it is serious because we have seen the, despite documentation the independent sources that have already seen at least 15, 20 years the commission of very grave crimes, the israeli legal system is not only not properly

investigated those crimes but has put in place the system that i would say whitewashed the responsibilities. and now the investigation by the guardian and by 972 shows very well it was done to tie it allegedly to what was a possible investigation by the international criminal court. so, trying to show an appearance of justice. of course, this is done in the intent to activate the principal of the international court according to the state they are investigating the crimes. generally, the international court does not need to become active. but, everything that has been shown shows at the moment very well the fact that these investigations were never

genuine. where a system that was, as i said, to not to investigate them. let me ask you about what all of this does to the legal order. in the wake of this report there was an investigator reporter saying they sanctioned threats against him if he reported on the attempts of intimidation. the united states basically some calling for sanctions against the icc, ignoring rules from the icj, if this was any other nation wouldn't there be more international outrage over these actions or is israel held to a different standard? >> reporter: i put would it in this way. no state is above the law. israel is not above the law.

but in the mast many decades israel has enjoyed a level of impunity that was granted to it, also, thanks to its strongest ally, the united states. that made basically impossible to ajudicate the international law violations committed by israeli government, subsequent israeli governments, not just the last one. in international flora. what we see now is the beginning, i think of the end of the impunity that was granted to the state of israel for so long. and this, of course, is a message for every state. we have something that is called international law and international legal order. that was decided by the international community after the second world war. exactly in order to make sure

that the atrocities, the genocide in the first place of the jewish people would not happen again. so, therefore, that is why we need these rules and see them immented. >> thank you. coming up how harvard's new policy on empathy exposes deep division in america policy on empathy exposes deep division in america season to season, ultomiris is continuous symptom control, with improvement in activities of daily living. it is reduced muscle weakness. and ultomiris is the only long-acting gmg treatment with the freedom of just 6 to 7 infusions per year, for a predictable routine i can count on. ultomiris can lower your immune system's ability to fight infections, increasing your chance of serious meningococcal infections,

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. after an academic year marked by sweeping pro- palestinian protests, harvard university adopted a new policy of silence. they will no longer make public statements on political or social issues and that means harvard will no longer offer cond emanations statements.

>> in issuing official statements of empathy the university runs the risk of caring more about some places and events than others. the stance is representative of how deeply polarized america is today where expressing empathy is considered risky and devicive. it extends beyond academia. this week a nurse was fired from new york university after she expressed empathy for women losing their children in gaza. the reason? her use of the word genocide to describe what she believes is happening there. at the time, she was receiving a compassion award on stage. recently, a master student at harvard spoke out during a school award ceremony to stand up for the 13 harvard students who were denied diplomas for protesting on campus.

here is some of the speech. >> we are in america. the shining city on the hill, we can denounce the invasion of ukraine. yet we drive the genocide and occupation of palestinian and use police force to brutalize young people who dare speak up against it. harvard university threatened has chosen to withhold degrees from our peers who fulfilled every graduation requirement but more importantly, extended >> just graduating from the harvard kennedy school with masters in public policy joins me now. great to have you on the show. i want to start by asking you about your comments did it feel like a risk to publicly denounce harvard's treatment of protesters and what has been the response from both the university, faculty members and

anyone else that you may have been concerned about? >> reporter: thanks for having me. of course, of course i felt at risk. we live in an age as you mentioned where speaking up for humanity and against the killing of children is somehow still under attack. but, palestinian poet said we are not the ones living under the rubble. on the point of why the suspended students were protesting in the first place, we are living in a moment that is perhaps unique in the extent that israel and the western allies are inflicting upon the palestinian people the brutality of them and global outcry. but nothing that i said and nothing that the students who were protesting and students that were suspended or students across the nation is saying is new. palestinians have been sharing their opinions for decades. should not take students in they are at harvard, chicago,

otherwise, to have their freedom of speech impinged. we have been sharing what has been said for decades and continues to be stated by palestinians what is unique is that we contribute to these, it is invested in death. it is literally carrying out a genocide with our division dollars so we do what we can. i gave my speech, we set up encampments, we protest. to borrow from one of the seniors who had their degree withheld from harvard, we protest for thousands of unnamed palestinians murdered. protest because we have hearts that respond to images of bloodied dead bodies, the destruction of safe havens,

refugee camps and hospitals. of course there was a risk of denouncing it. how can any of us live with ourselves, i could not. if we did not condemn what was condemnable. >> this is harvard's response that it finds itself. what do you make of how harvard responded specifically to the fact that it will refrain from taking public stances on issues unrelated to academia and one faculty member put it. as the faculty report put it. the most compassionit course of action is not to issue official statements of empathy. what do you make of the statement? >> as you stated it says a lot about the polarization. harvard is in position of not making statements of empathy and therefore all well and

good. they are attempting to operate under a veneer of objectivity through their claim that they will no longer be taking stances or making statements on public issues whrvment in reality they very much complicate in bankrolling it. they are uniquely punishing students advocating for palestine and using their soft academic power. and all of this, frankly. ties to harvard out of occupied palestinian demands. the university disclose their investments. we know in the past, harvard infested $200 million in entities for illegal settlements in palestine and the actual dollar view of the invested in entities perpetrating in genocide right now is higher. number two, harvard divest the funds and that harvard drop the

charges that it levied against pro palestine students participating in activism and civil disobedience. if harvard were to do them, less empathetic on public issues and those things i might mention they might be near what they report to achieve. regardless what they say, they are not neutral. >> right. i guess now that you have graduated and you have your degree and about to go in the real world. when you look back at your time at harvard and what you learned about the institution, at the institution do you have regrets going to harvard? encouraging of other students to be selective where they go to school to do a full audit of where the universities are complicity in the issues that students may not agree with and

not go to these -- universitys? what should they do -- universities? >> what should they do? >> any university that students choose to go to are morally and ethically complicate in the ongoing genocide in gaza and the occupation of palestine. hard to pick one that does not bankroll some way, shape or form what is happening. so, that is the unfortunate reality that we face with students. my advice would be to continue to attend these universities because if our voices were not there for them to disclose their funds and to hold true to their motto and other schools such as harvard then there would be no talk about this issue at all in these spaces. >> congratulations on your degree. we will follow you closely as

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on this new hour, donald trump and his flock. they played the victim. and a look at how many times israel has caused the death of