under incredible pressure from the qataris. what the u.s. is counting on is for qatar and egypt to bring hamas to the table on this. sinwar, who is calling the shots, is deep underground somewhere in a tunnel in gaza. what does his legacy want to be? is he willing to actually call an end to the war, as well? you know, we shall see. finally on rafah, you have the israelis, the americans, and the egyptians, the qataris, as well, meeting on this. one of the things the egyptians want to see is for rafah to reopen. a lot of this has to do with if israel and hamas can come to a deal. >> a delicate moment in this conflict. we, of course, will stay on every detail. we appreciate the insights from retired cia officer mark polymer roptous. thank you again. thanks for getting up "way too early" on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. folks, folks, folks.

she shouldn't be allowed to run, okay? there's virtually no doubt that fbi director comey and the great, great special agents of the fbi will be able to collect more than enough evidence to honor indictments against hillary clinton and her inner circle, despite her efforts to disparage them and discredit them. if she were to win this election, it would create an unprecedented constitutional crisis. in that situation, we could very well have a sitting president under felony indictment and, ultimately, a criminal trial. [ crowd booing ]

it would grind government to a halt. >> wow. >> well, that was then candidate donald trump just three days before the 2016 election, saying a president under felony indictment would grind the government to a halt and create a constitutional crisis. he got the premise right, just the players wrong, as he is now the first former u.s. president and candidate to be convicted of a crime. >> i mean, this is what he said. "she should not be able to run. it would create an unprecedented constitutional crisis" if someone with a felony was running for president and got elected. "it would grind government to a halt." also, taking note that, at that time, donald trump actually

didn't despise and hate the fbi. it's a situational way. too many of his supporters only love this country if donald trump is president of the united states. and if donald trump is not the president of the united states, they turn on the men and the women of the fbi. they turn on america. they turn on american democracy. they say this country is horrible. it is all very situational. not the way i was raised. i love this country. don't turn flags upside down if my candidate doesn't win. i don't lie for four years and say my candidate really won elections. it's just crazy. she would be unable to -- she should not be able to run an unprecedented, constitutional crisis. >> the country would grind to a halt, hmm. >> mika, the question is never about trump. >> no. >> it's about -- how is it going on your phone? >> i was getting your coffee

hot. >> you want it hot? >> you want it hot. i was letting them know. >> thank you very much. >> you're welcome. >> very kind of you. >> you're welcome. someone has to do it. >> must have thought i was lagging here and wasn't awake enough. >> it's not donald trump that we're surprised by. it's the people that continue to follow a guy who so clearly is a h hypocrite, who is situational, who goes from saying he loves the fbi to hating the fbi, who goes from saying america is the worst country in the world to saying america is great again. when he loses, he says he didn't lose and america is a terrible country again. his family calls this country a shithole country. america, the greatest country, the greatest country on the face of the earth by just about every measure. i mean, i believe that. i love america. i love america. i love america!

i don't see it through the prism of who is sitting in the white house and whether this is a great country or not. it's a great country. sometimes, sometimes i think some presidents are better than others, but, my god, it is staggering. >> yeah, well -- >> that donald trump's supporters convince themselves that they hate america because donald trump says he hates america. because america is weak. they rag on the military all the time, saying it weak and woke. we have the most powerful military in the world. they rag on our economy, saying our economy is terrible. some saying it is going toward a depression. we have a strongest economy in the world. relative to the rest of the world, there's not a close second. america is more powerful today than it has been in a very long time relative to the rest of the world. that's just the reality of it.

>> despite what you think of joe biden. i think the thing that's most troubling and scary and frightening about this, and deadly serious, is the republican party. >> yeah. >> and the rnc. >> it's sad. >> that part of this equation is where we don't know how this ends. >> it's sad. and it's sad primarily for the republican party because they're going to lose again. after all these years of losing, from 2017 through 2023, jonathan lemire, you think they would have learned by now. and i'm dead serious here. you think they would have -- you know, occasionally, some people will get on other shows and say, oh, they're always attacking the republicans. i'm here. i've been on a mission of mercy

since 2017, trying to save the republican party from themselves. >> deeply generous. >> they didn't listen, and they lost. didn't listen in 2017, and they lost. didn't listen in 2018, and they lost. didn't listen in 2019, and they lost. 2020 they lost. '21, '22, '23, they lost. they always think they're so clever. they always think they're so tough. they're the 1962 new york mets, and at some point, somebody needs to wake up and go, hey, guys, we suck at this game of politics. we need a new manager. >> think of the moments that republicans could have cut donald trump loose. they could have parted ways with him. right after the november 2020 election, they chose not to. right after january 6th, and that subsequent impeachment trial when it did seem he was at his low water mark, they chose not to. during the january 6th committee

hearings when all of that was resurfaced for national consumption, they chose not to. after the 2022 midterms when trump's candidates, particularly for the senate, lost. donald trump lost. people were questioning whether he should even run again. he rushed his campaign announcement, and there was a sense he was doing so to try to avoid prosecution, that it wasn't good for the party. they could have done it then. they chose not to. now, during the primary process, they could have gone another direction. trump refused to debate his rifles. republicans chose not to. e. jean carroll. now this. there is now a criminal conviction. not only are republicans cutting donald trump loose, they're wrapping themselves tighter to him with few exceptions. republicans have come out in recent days and denounced this as a travesty of justice, rallied behind donald trump and suggested that this was a

department of justice witch hunt, that it was a political prosecution, and they have attached their fate to his yet again. and there is no sense that that's going to change between now and november. we are seeing, as we'll get into this morning, some early polls that suggest modest but real movement away from trump after this conviction. warning signs are there for these republicans, and they're ignoring them. >> and that's -- that's the thing, mika. maybe marco rubio thinks attacking juries plays well with his base. i'm not so sure. i mean, i think most americans respect other americans that sit for six weeks. even trump's own attorney said the jury was serious. they did a good job. you know -- >> paid attention. >> they paid attention. >> to the facts. >> he did not find fault with

them at all. he said they paid attention and did their job. but you have marco rubio and other republicans who, again, because they want donald trump to notice them, attack an institution like america's jury system. >> right. >> then compares the united states of america, the usa, compares us, us, to castro's communist cuba. >> oh, my god. who are you? >> yeah, what's happened to marco rubio? where is he? that is so deeply unsettling, for us, for him, for the republican party, for the people who vote for him, for the people who vote for this republican party. because you're losing when you talk this way. when you attack the rule of law, when you attack the fbi, when

you attack jurors. maybe you get $25 in fundraising, you know, blitzes, but you lose independent voters. you lose swing voters in wisconsin, in michigan, in pennsylvania, and you lose elections. they keep doing this, and they keep losing elections. i just, again, i wonder how long can they keep going off the cliff for this guy? >> you know, at some point, people who are clueing into this election, which historically starts to happen in the months and days before an election, they're going to see all these republicans saying this is the biden justice department. that i going to be parroting trump, who says it is biden, it's biden. well, hunter biden is going to court, so biden must be the worst co-opter of the justice department on earth if this is the biden justice department, which we all know there's no

evidence of that in this new york criminal trial where trump was convicted of 34 felony counts. 34, across the board, from beginning to end, every single cowan was guilty. that's resounding so, you know, good luck with that argument. it only lasts until people start reading. >> yeah. or if they look at what peter alexander said yesterday when a member of the united states senate tried it on him. here's peter. >> let me just clarify a couple things for the audience right now. as you know well, this was a state case. donald trump was indicted by a grand jury in new york. he was convicted by a jury of 12 new yorkers beyond a reasonable doubt. they didn't seek this responsibility. joe biden, as you know, had nothing to do with this case. in fact, the manhattan d.a.'s investigation, this case began in 2018 when joe biden wasn't even the party, the democratic

party's presidential nominee. when you talk about what joe biden's department of justice has done, joe biden's department of justice is also right now prosecuting cases against democrats, robert menendez of new jersey, henry cuellar, the representative from texas, and hunter biden on the gun charges against him. let me ask you about what we heard from former president trump. the first official event of this re-election campaign, donald trump proclaimed, "i am your retribution." he talks about seeking revenge against his political enemies and says he'll appoint a special prosecutor to, in his words, go after joe biden and his family. if it's so objectionable for the justice system to be, as you say, weaponized against donald trump, why is it acceptable for donald trump to campaign on weaponizing the doj against joe biden? >> well, of course, there is no answer to that. by the way, you could go back to 2020, two weeks before the election. i keep bringing this up.

republicans for some reason aren't bothered by it. two weeks before the election in 2020, donald trump went to bar his attorney general and ordered him to arrest joe biden, hunter biden, and the biden family. ordered two weeks before the election. he ordered the arrest of his political opponent, and barr refused to do it. one of the reasons why he left. let's bring in also with us this morning a member of "the new york times" editorial board, mara gay. and deputy et torre of politics for "politico," sam stein. and of "the financial times," ed luce. mara, peter laid it out pretty darn well. you have the biden justice department actually going after joe biden's son and democratic members of congress, but not going after donald trump in new york. because that case, that investigation began in 2018.

2018. again, as peter points out, all this maga b.s. about joe biden orchestrating this always overlooks the fact that, well, we've got a system, unfortunately for poor marco, that the communists in cuba don't have. we have a grand jury system. a grand jury found probable cause. a jury of 12 new yorkers, 12 of his peers unanimously found him guilty on 34 counts. yet, they continue. >> yeah, well -- >> go ahead. it is nonsense. >> it must be extraordinarily broad conspiracy. in order to be real, it would have to involve members of the jury who we know were simply just, you know, teachers from harlem. it would have to involve all kinds of people for a series of years across a series of states

that are really invested in, you know, overturning our democracy. it's just not actually -- it is laughable. it's not serious. it reminds me, actually, of the exchange between brad raffensperger and donald trump that we know about. because it's just impossible for any impartial, serious observer to believe that it would be a republican secretary of state that would be, you know, interested in stealing an election from donald trump. all of this just requires us to suspend belief, and it is preying upon a series of disinformation campaigns that, unfortunately, trump's base has been consuing now for years. i think the thing to focus on, i think, in the months ahead is that the more the republican party continues to wrap itself up with trump and trumpism, the

more anybody who is not in that base is going to be extremely motivated to show up at the polls. in some ways, i think this election is going to be decided by -- not by trump's base. we know what they'll do in some ways. actually, by everybody else, not just democrats, independents and republicans across the country who are looking at this and are extremely concerned. if donald trump does return to office, this may be a presidency that looks -- you know, he may be more like a king in some ways. i have a colleague who wrote about that today. i mean, there are serious concerns about his -- whether there are going to be checks on power for a president who sees the presidency now as a retribution opportunity. so i actually think that the more this goes on, the more the rest of the america, and that is a majority, is going to be motivated to show up at the polls. that helps joe biden. because the real issue for democrats is how to motivate people to get to the polls. it's not what they feel about

donald trump. >> right. >> so this can really only help to keep donald trump out of the white house, i believe. >> i totally agree. we're going to show you a poll that abc did along with ipsos which points that fact out, mika, in one second. i do want to go to ed luce, though. ed, i was not watching because i do my best not to watch live donald trump. >> oh, yeah. >> i will go back, then i'll look at it later. or read about it. or any people who are going to spew lies for as long as he did. but i started getting texts from people on the biden campaign that i know, and they were like, thank god trial is over. this is the moment we've been waiting for.

stay up there, donald. keep talking, donald. again, the idea that the biden campaign or joe biden wanted donald trump locked down for six weeks, not going out, not sounding crazy, not sounding actually a lot crazier than he did four, five years ago, completely takes the wrong view of what's going on here. the biden campaign loved what they saw on friday. because they know what people on the inside of the trump campaign know, and that is that donald trump is getting even crazier, even -- when i say crazier, i mean angrier, more unmoored from reality, and the one thing he has completely stopped doing is asking, hey, what do you think of this? what do you think of that? he's just completely raging and on his own.

>> yeah, i mean, i take the same sort of steps as you do, joe, to protect my mental health. i try not to watch too much of this live. this is the one, of course, where he calls the judge, judge merchan, the devil, and then many other things. you know, his sentencing hearing is july the 11th, just four days before we're all going to be in milwaukee for the rnc convention. i don't know what judge merchan is going to sentence him to, whether it's going to be, you know, some community service, cleaning toilets at the port authority, or picking up trash in the park, but we can, i think, probably safely bet that donald trump that week in milwaukee is going to be in the same kind of frame of mind that we saw last friday when you took those precautions for your mental health not to watch it. i have to say one thing.

you mentioned rubio's comparison of the new york trial to the cuban justice system. even more frequently cited comparison by republicans, by many republican senators, by the federalist society and others last friday, was between the new york court and the moscow show trials, the soviet show trials of the 1930s. these were trials where the defendant had confessions extracted by torture, heard before appointed judges with no juries, let alone juries that have been selected partly by the defense, which resulted in pre-scripted sentences that then resulted in their execution. the level of ignorance to compare this system to what happened in stalin's russia is quite remarkable.

i think the fact that people like putin and orban of hungary were repeating those talking points on friday and saying in the a rigged trial, this is a corrupt -- shows the corruption of america, proves that point. it is an extraordinarily level of ignorance and insult to the intelligence of americans when people say this. >> well, ignorance is actually -- that's the kindest accusation. >> it is depending on who you're talking about. >> if they actually know what went on during those show trials, the horrifying show trials that absolutely laid siege to the soviet union in the mid to late '30s, and actually ended up with stalin killing most of his effective generals and allowing hitler to come in and almost take the country, it shows such an extraordinary

ignorance or cynicism. mika, it's, once again, slander against the united states of america. this is a party that does not love america. when you compare american -- the american judicial system to stalin's judicial system, to castro's judicial system, and you know you are lying, you know you are defaming the united states of america, you know, you have put party over country, and you're not going to win swing voters. you're just not. >> well, republicans and most of fox news, they're doing it to keep their job. they're not doing it for the truth or for facts or for news. they're doing it to keep their jobs. we've been told that. you can also see it, plain as day. >> well, we have been told that. new polling from abc news and ipsos is giving us our first snapshot has how independent voters feel about last week's

verdict. although 45% say the verdict was politically motivated, more than half of all independents, 52%, believe the jury reached the right conclusion and think it should end donald trump's 2024 campaign. those numbers are even higher among voters with unfavorable opinions of both trump and president joe biden. the so-called double haters. among that group, 65% say the verdict was correct, and 67% say it should end trump's bid for the white house. >> keep this up for a second. >> agree with donald trump then, how we came in on the show here. >> sam stein, we're looking at the double haters. everybody are talking about the double haters. people who don't like biden, don't like trump. actually, if you dig into that, they are, of course, pollsters say, they're the most important group. if you dig into it, you know, you actually get a lot of

hated -- a lot of animosity toward donald trump. with joe biden, it's like, eh, he's too old. he's a good guy, too old, don't want him in there. double haters actually is a bit of a misnomer. but they always seem to break overwhelmingly biden's way. here we see it again. 67% of this undecided group that's going to determine the outcome of the election think that the convictions should end donald trump's campaign. what say you, mr. stein? >> well, i think it's an alarming number if you're donald trump, obviously. you can't afford to bleed that type of support anywhere, but that block, in particular, you need to break to you specifically, right? he's going to win his voters. we know that. what he really needs in this election is those people who are on the fence, maybe a little

wary of joe biden, breaking all the way his way. that said, i'm going to hold my judgments for polls that are not snapshot polls. that's right after the verdict. people may be reacting to the news. we're also five months out, as jonathan pointed out rightfully at the top of this, we have a lengthy history of people circling back to trump after egregious, seemingly crippling moments. january 6th top among them. let's wait and see and be sober about the poll numbers. i will say, look, it obviously doesn't benefit donald trump to have 34 guilty counts against him. it's not something that any candidate would want. i think he is trying to turn it into some sort of political favor. i don't think it is ignorance that other republicans are comparing it to the show trials of the stalin era. they know exactly what they're doing. they're not ignorant of it. they're trying to discredit the justice system because that's the card they have to play here. the question, joe, you raised

is, will the public, or at least will a good portion of the public look at that and say, you know what, i'm all for it? or, you know what? our foundational system of government and the rule of law is too important. it was telling to me, when joe biden offered his first remarks on the trial last week, he did not go after the substance of the verdict. no one expected him to do that. what he did is he got really heated about the effort to get republicans to undermine the faith in the rule of law. that's where he wants to point his anger, and that's the case he wants to make heading into the election. >> politics of this are going to be fascinating. yes, polling shows there is a percentage of republicans who won't vote for trump, or say the convicted felon, but now there are talking points, creating an ecochamber about how unfair the verdict was. now, let's see what the

democrats do. the president, it was the right thing to do, most people believe, his remarks saying we need to respect the process. now, what do fellow democrats do, the campaign, the president do in terms of driving home this conviction, as an example why donald trump is not fit for office? now, let's turn to the legal part of this and bring in former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. i hope you've had a chance to catch your breath after a frenzied stretch. we are a couple days out from the verdict now. any additional reactions now that you've had time to sit with this as to how it went down? and give us your latest thoughts as to what the prosecution may seek in terms of penalty. >> let's start there. i think the prosecution, notwithstanding donald trump's efforts to say the people won't stand for his serving any jail time, i would be very surprised if the manhattan d.a.'s office doesn't seek some form of jail time here. the reason is for two reasons, john. one is the severity of the

conduct. we're talking about 34 counts, each of which could be pun niche punished by four years. they're not going to seek four years for each count. they'll have a concurrent sentence where it is grouped together. it is hard to imagine given the multiplicity of counts here, they won't seek jail time. the other factor is the lack of remorse by the defendant. not only do we have a defendant already found in criminal contempt ten times, but he continues to say things about the verdict, about the process, about participants in the process who are covered by the gag order. theoretical violations of the gag order that haven't been brought to justice merchan's attention. that could be a part of sentencing. when he says it is a cabal

because they had someone serving in the biden department of justice, that is no remorse. a person who says the process is rigged, the judge is corrupt, that the district attorney didn't want to bring the case but did under political pressure, that is a person who doesn't believe he did anything wrong, as he continues to play. i expect that to be a major factor in the sentencing. >> lisa, obviously, we have no precedent for a former sitting president to be convicted of a felony on 34 counts. at the same time, if you're the judge, judge merchan must be thinking, okay, you know, i have to look at precedent in terms of sentencing, what is fair? so are there high-profile cases you think he may be looking at? are there, you know, other examples that we can look to to say, well, this might be be what it looks like? i mean, what would be fair? there's no precedent. we're just kind of running blind here.

>> judge merchan is a person who historically has not been particularly lenient with white-collar offenders. it is also not the case, despite what trump is his allies continue to say, that falsification of business records as a felony is not a traditionally prosecuted crime in manhattan. in fact, it gets prosecuted all the time. what might be novel here is the combination of falsification of business records and an election law conspiracy under state law. it is new york election law 17152. that's the crime that trump says, nobody had any idea what i was being accused of. that's not true at all. but, again, if you're looking historically at have people committed falsification of business records that get bumped up to a felony because there is an underlying crime that they either intended to commit or conceal, that happens all the time in manhattan. judge merchan will take that into consideration. >> all right. msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin, thank you very much. we'll see you again soon.

>> thanks, guys. ahead on "morning joe," president biden announces a new cease-fire proposal to end the war in gaza. we'll go over the terms and explain why israel is pushing back against biden's description of the deal. plus, history made in mexico. with the election of its first female president. we'll go live to mexico city for more on the country's new leader. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds.

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33 past the hour. a senior israeli official tells nbc news president biden's description of the latest cease-fire proposal is, quote, not accurate. the official specifically disputed that israel had agreed to fully withdraw its troops from gaza, a clause that's in the second phase of the proposal. the comment comes as far-right members of the israeli government have voiced their opposition to the proposal. president biden announced the framework on friday, describing it as a, quote, durable end to the conflict. the three-phased plan begins with a six-week truce and the return of women, children, and other vulnerable hostages in exchange for the release of hundreds of palestinian prisoners. israeli troops would also withdraw from populated areas of gaza. the second phase would see a permanent end to the war as well

as the release of the retaining hostages. the third phase outlines a three to five-year period of reconstructing gaza and the establishment of a non-hamas palestinian government. hamas has responded positively to the proposal so far. joining us now, columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. david, president biden seems to be quite out front on this. what do you make of the israeli response? >> so i think president biden is trying to force prime minister netanyahu to make a choice. in a way, there are two bibi netanyahus. there's the person who is the head of the war cabinet, that person, from everything i know, signed off on the consensus of israeli military leaders that the vision that president biden laid out on friday about a way to end this war is correct. there's another prime minister netanyahu who is the head of the

governing coalition which has some extreme right-wing members, who knows that if he presses forward with biden's deal, his coalition will fall. already two key members have said, one said this would be absolute defeat for israel. the other said he'd immediate quit the government. netanyahu's government will fall if he takes the deal. if he doesn't take the deal, he'll probably be replaced because he is not popular in israel. we're at a scenario where elections are extremely likely. biden has tried to force the issue, make netanyahu choose, make the israeli people choose between a credible path to winding this war down, bringing the hostages home, which israelis feel so passionately about, and continuing with netanyahu's fundamentally

disorganized approach to this war. he still doesn't really have a plan for what we call the day after. he just keeps talking about needing to fight and fight until we have absolute victory, which our cia, which israeli military intelligence generally thinks is an impossible goal. >> well, and, again, he's, as you said, being pulled into different directions. he can listen to the military. he can listen to his security advisors, or he can listen to the extreme right in his coalition. either way he goes, politically at least, he's out, right, david? >> netanyahu is the ultimate survivor. i've been covering him much of hi life, and i never want to bet he's not going to find a way for political survival. there are proposals that lapid, a centrist, might come in. if the extreme right-wing people

defect from benjamin netanyahu's coalition, lapid might get enough mandates to continue to govern. the fundamental question that biden is putting to israel is one that simply can't be escaped. what is it that they see as the end to this war that's been so costly for israel, so devastating to the country's morale? how is that going to end? i continue to think that they have a real friend in biden who is still trying to embrace israel and say, "let us help you find a way out of this." >> yeah. biden still appears to be very popular in israel. despite the problems he's had with netanyahu, who netanyahu is obviously very unpopular there. i am curious, though, in your visits, in your communication with your sources, where are the israeli people right now? i know maybe a month or two ago, people were talking about

netanyahu's policies being off the mark and, yet, the israeli people were with him as far as taking the war to hamas. now, i really think the brilliance of the biden proposal is that he's had hamas basically agree, thus far, to a future where they're not running gaza. if that's not victory, i don't know what is. do the israeli people -- will the israeli people see it that way, the release of hostages, the expulsion of hamas from any governing role in gaza, and three- to five-year rebuilding of that area? >> so, joe, from release of the hostages will bring a sense of joy and relief in israel that will be overwhelming. >> yes. >> and will change the situation. but i think the strongest card that netanyahu has is that he's

saying to israelis, we should fight on until victory. we're israel. we're tough. we don't let terrorists stream across our border on october 7 and murder our people without exacting the ultimate revenge and vindication. that's popular in israel. i have israeli friends. one stopped by the other night to warn, netanyahu, the average israeli who is traumatized by what happened october 7th is becoming more popular, not less, this person said to me. make israel great again. >> i don't understand. >> that's bibi's line. bring back our sense of strength. sound familiar? >> keep me out of jail. >> well, keep me out of jail. there are a lot of parallels here we could cite. make israel great again. the country that's traumatized, that feels it's been reversed. we know from our american

experience that the appeal of that kind of populism can be strong. what's needed is a firm vision of an alternative path to end the war, bring the hostages home, and give israel security. if somebody, the defenseman, mr. gallot, former chief of staff, benny gantz, can provide that, you know, you can have a strong general who says to a traumatized israel, here's a way forward with our best ally, the united states, that will make us all secure, that's going to be the most powerful factor, i think. >> well, jonathan lemire, you can make israel great again by not having a prime minister who knew where all of hamas' illegal funds were in 2018. he and donald trump did nothing about it. you could get a prime minister in israel that didn't go to qatar and say, "hey, keep funding the hamas terrorists billions of dollars. keep that pipeline of cash and

supplies going to hamas, which bibi netanyahu did." we could go on and on. hamas existed, and hamas was able to attack on october the 7th because bibi netanyahu built their war machine. and they don't deny it anymore. they don't deny it. they only say, well, let's talk about that after the war. but make israel great again? how about getting a prime minister that doesn't go to doha and say, "hey, we want you to fund a terrorist organization whose very existence is focused on the slaughter of jews and the elimination of the state of israel," because that's bibi netanyahu. he's the one who put israel in this position on october the 7th. make israel great again? yeah, yeah, make israel great again. get competent leaders that aren't runaround by a cabinet of extremists. >> yeah, you've underscored the

flaw with this comparison here. trump, for all his flaws in 2015, 2016, when he introduced make america great again, he was an outsider. prime minister netanyahu was in power the morning of october 7th. he is no outsider certainly. ed luce, let's get you in on this to get your analysis on this maneuver by president biden. seemingly trying to box bibi netanyahu in. what do you think netanyahu's choice will be? it's his priorities. what are they? is it to end this war or to stay in power? >> i think david ignatius is absolutely spot on on this. there are two netanyahus. there's the one who leads the war cabinet, which sees the logic of this three-phased plan that biden laid out. then there's the netanyahu who heads this coalition that includes extreme right-wing jewish supremacist parties. unfortunately, wherever in netanyahu's career there has been a choice between doing the statesmanlike thing and doing

the thing that would save his own skin, he's always gone for that second netanyahu, the one that would save his own skin. i guess the hope is that by forcing this issue last friday, what biden will do is accelerate the departure from netanyahu's coalition of the moderates, people like benny gantz, that will then lead to a general election that would replace netanyahu and, i guess, result in the resumption of the criminal trials against him, by the way, which is why i have absolutely no doubt that netanyahu will do anything, sacrifice anything, including israel's interests -- >> yeah. >> -- in order for that not to happen, to stop that general election from taking place. >> that seems pretty obvious. u.s. national editor at "the financial times," ed luce, thank you very much. and "the washington post"'s

david ignatius, thank you, both, for coming on this morning. >> they're institutions. >> i know. >> they're institutions in and of themselves. >> they know their stuff. >> i think we need to get statues of them around "morning joe" headquarters. >> okay. >> yes. >> all right. we could do that. thanks, guys. coming up, caitlin clark is getting the rookie treatment from some opponents in the wnba, highlighted by a hard foul over the weekend. look at that. we'll discuss that and much more with the great pablo torre, straight ahead. >> he's the best. >> on "morning joe." people are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food.

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about ten minutes before the of the hour. history was made overnight in mexico's presidential election. claudia sheinbaum is set to be mexico's first female president. she'll also be the first mexico president of jewish heritage. early results show sheinbaum, a climate scientist and former mayor of mexico city, winning in a landslide, grabbing nearly 60% of the vote. sheinbaum campaigned on a promise to cement the legacy of outgoing prosecute and her long-time mentor, manuel, and her defeat conceded defeat after taking only 30% of the votes. history. >> mara, history here. a lot of history made here.

first woman elected in mexico. also the first jewish person in one of the world's largest predominantly catholic countries. still cartel violence there, which hasn't been curbes. also some undermining of institutions at the same time. a lot of mexicans lifted out of poverty over the past four years. >> she's also a climate scientist. he is-- she's an interesting figure. what will be interesting is mexico is not only focused right now on cartel violence, which has been an ongoing concern, of course, but actually also on building infrastructure, which was a major issue in this campaign, just as a close observer of it. it's also a country that is dealing with a lot of the same

border control issues that the united states is. so it will be kind of interesting to see what the president-elect does on that front, as well. there is, you know, some anger among the mexican public, too, about having migrant crisis that it is also experiencing. it's not only the united states experiencing the migrant crisis. of course, we always want a close look at how that could be destabilizing democracies, not just here in the united states but elsewhere. this is an election that, sadly, was beset, as well. at the local level, there was political violence. we don't want to miss that. this is a really critical time, not just for the united states and its democracy but for democracies around the world. i think that this is a moment of hope, but this really is something to watch there, as well. >> yes. >> all right. other news, a legal disciplinary board says rudy giuliani should be disbarred. the recommendation from the d.c.

board of professional responsibility cites giuliani's work in pennsylvania following the 2020 election in which he sought to have the state's election results thrown out in favor of his former client, donald trump. now, the case heads to the d.c. court of appeals, which will decide whether giuliani will be disbarred. a spokesperson for the former new york city mayor blamed the findings in the report on partisan democrats. >> sam stein, if only it were that easy for rudy giuliani. i mean, facing bankruptcy, continued disbarment proceedings going on against him. the news keeps getting worse for rudy. >> yeah, i mean, i'm not sure his legal practice in d.c. was that big or that people were eager to hire him in this city, but it is a humiliation, frankly. you know, rudy obviously is a controversial figure. he was a controversial figure as mayor. i'm not going to sweep that

aslide. it is fair and objectionable to say this is a shocking fall of grace from a man who, after 9/11, was on "time" magazine as america's mayor. just the litany of things that happened the last five years is an inglorious final chapter. it makes you wonder about the path not taken for him. >> sam, let me ask you quickly, what are you working on this week at "politico"? what are you looking at? >> every week seems like a crazy week, guys, but this is a wild week. we have the hunter trial starting today. that's happening as the president is set to give an executive action on the border, addressing the migrant crisis we just referenced. that's happening right before the president heads to france for a ceremonial trip for the 80th anniversary of d-day, all with the backdrop of the fallout from trump's verdict. it is a wild,d.c.,

as they tend to be. >> sam, thank you so much. >> thanks, guys. coming up, we're covering a lot of ground in the sports world. first, roger bennett joins us to explain the major match in the champions league. and pablo torre is in studio with more about the incredible start to juan soto's season with the new york yankees. we'll be right back. (♪♪) i'm getting vaccinated with pfizer's pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine. so am i. because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. come on. i already got a pneumonia vaccine, but i'm asking about the added protection of prevnar 20®. if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes, copd, or heart disease, or are 65 or older,

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come on. come on! >> it's the top of the hour almost. >> if it's almost the top of the hour, that means it is time for nbc sports soccer analyst and founder of "men in blazers" -- >> no. >> -- media network. >> it's supposed to be -- >> it is not just a media network. it is a media empire that roger runs. top of the hour today. roger. >> mika. >> dortmund, dortmund was playing great the first half. they just blanketed real. wait, is roger yawning? >> no, no. i'm reliving the game. it's like a horror movie. you don't go down to the beautiful spot late at night when it is misty. just bad things happen. you'll see what i mean. >> never. >> the club football season -- >> it happened here. >> -- saves the best until last. the champions league final.

the planet wide eclipse across the globe for 90 minutes. london's wembley, top dog, facing real madrid, the gold standard of the tournament, seeking their 15th win all time against dortmund. real madrid, bama, they were a bit like the match with the electric energy. the best chance of the first half. the decision making not well. real madrid just find a way to win when playing badly. 5'7" spanish hair hobbit leaps in front of a 6'2" giant, flicks a ball home. seven minutes later, 20-year-old english king rolls a ball to the best junior since soprano. 2-0, madrid. football is a cruel game, joe. unless you are a real madrid fan. stop me if you've heard this

before, they played poorly by win the champions league again, 15th. it is a magical aura. in american sports, i don't know anything like it. other than joey chestnut in the hot dog eating thing. it is a magical transcendence. >> that's what i think when i see the beautiful game and see real flying through the air, winning another championship. my mind goes straight to joey chestnut. you know, you are so right. it's like the liverpool match when they beat liverpool in the champions league final. they didn't play that well. it's a game liverpool could have easily won. but they always, like patrick mahomes in super bowls, they always figure out a way to win. >> mahomes, joe. it is transcendent, magical. the end of the day, in football, we're cheering for spreadsheets. mika, the season has ended, and it starts in about two weeks' time. >> congratulations. >> two weeks' time.

i was just going to say the same thing. >> okay, make the turn. >> then those two weeks, we'll see liverpool play, i think, in philadelphia, playing all over the place. >> founder of "men in blazers" media network -- >> hold on, hold on. holding roger to something. roger, we're going to liverpool next year. we're going to watch the derby. we're going to watch liverpool and everton. you pick the location. i'm pinning you down now. we need to do it. >> i know. i will be there. mika, always, this has been, i think, my 14th year on the show. still pretending she hates it. i just want the world to know how secretly she adores the game of football in real life. >> i love it so much. >> real mika. >> okay. >> yes. >> i love it so much, i think you both should go, definitely. >> yeah? good. >> please. let's turn to "pablo torre finds out" on meadowlark media, pablo torre.

you have a lot of titles. >> i do. >> important man. >> i want an invite. roger bennett just got invited on a european grand tour by joe scarborough. i'm at the table want waiting to talk about my yankees, you know? >> yeah. >> unfortunately, heartbreak at fenway yesterday, as we blew a 3-0 lead. mika was very -- >> it was tied. >> -- polite staying with me through extra innings, watching that. no problems for the yankees. juan soto, we see so many of the free agents who are busts. not juan soto. he's incredible. >> i've been banging the juan soto drum to you for a while now. what is the venn diagram between me and rudy giuliani? rooting for soto and aaron judge. the guy is also an mvp candidate.

if you're not aware of what the yankees are doing, it feels like my childhood again. which is to say, i get to look down at the standings somewhere and see joe and john's red sox pathetically near the bottom anywhere. i don't know, third place, whatever, it's all the same. meanwhile, aaron judge and juan soto are the bash brothers. aaron judge is leading the a.l. in homers, walks -- >> this is so great. >> juan soto, of course, is the guy who i've celebrated as the dude we should pay all of the money in the world to. now we got two of those guys. >> yes. >> and a pitching staff, joe! the best pitching staff in the -- >> this is so exciting. >> oh, my god. >> keep going. keep going. >> it's all just a feast of nostalgia for me. >> what is so great about this, look at this. look at this, the standings, jonathan lemire. do you know what's so exciting about this? >> is lemire there? >> i'll tell you, they're going to win 112 games. dodgers will win 111 games. they'll both be out in the

divisional series while we'll keep going. >> how dare you. >> with the wild card team, that little engine that could. i think i can. i think i can. i think i can. jonathan lemire, we've seen this before. the yankees, maybe they have a great season. the dodgers have a great season. they're going to get bounced out. then more tears and less gloating from our own pablo torre. >> why do we have him on? why are we doing this? >> reading the news. >> so much yankee gloating, it is deeply insufferable. you're right, joe, the red sox split a series with the tigers this weekend when they should have won three out of four, to be sure. pablo is great, the yankees are playing great. i hate to bring this up, but it is all about gerrit cole, their ace, who could be back in a month's time. but, to be fair, since 2009, part of the yankee tradition is falling short in october. that is something they still have to deal with.

>> more excited -- >> you mentioned the dodgers. >> go ahead. >> yankees and dodgers play each other i believe next weekend. >> great. >> that'll be a lot of fun to see. two teams that are perennially heading home before the first of november. >> perennially. >> perennially, it's been -- >> rudy giuliani was a normal person, about to see championships won. that's what i remember. >> he was never that normal. >> i have a question for pablo. >> past the top of the hour, but this is too fun to stop right now, mika. >> i have a question for pablo. this is wnba rookie phenom caitlin clark taking a hard foul from chicago sky guard chennedy carter. >> carter's jumper is good. carter with 12 points off the bench. and a delay from boston as the officials are going to take a look at what just transpired

between carter and clark. >> after it was initially ruled a common foul, the league upgraded it to a flagrant yesterday. carter showing no remorse on social media following the game. carter wrote, quote, besides three point shooting, what does clark bring to the table? she added another post, i'd rather that you hate me than love me, and i mean that on my dead aunt. and she's not the only member -- >> she's -- i'll tell you what -- that's what you do when you want the pepsi endorsements. >> one of clark's former college rivals seen cheering on the hard foul from the sideline has been fined $1,000 for skipping out on interviews with the media following saturday's game. >> come on. >> pablo. >> this is bill -- >> it is the jordan rules. mika, this is how they treat you

when you're a rookie who also is a superstar. when you are a goliath who feels like a david. in pro wrestling terms, you are a heel and a face, a villain and a hero. this is, on many, many levels, the perfect story. because everybody has something to be mad about. a lot of the anger is not just the clip that we are seeing now and the social media chatter. it's from everybody, all levels of race and hype and culture wars. the question i had, guys, entering this wnba season was, how could caitlin clark pros replicate what she did in college? the most watched basketball game in espn history was her iowa team making the run to the tournament. the way you do it is by getting everybody varying degrees of mad. this is the perfect sports story

because it has all of that culture war in it, as well as sports. she is struggling. she had three points last night against the liberty in that loss. before then, beat the chicago sky against her own rival, angel reese. this one, lone three-pointer. that's what you saw from caitlin clark. at the same time, as she struggled, 17, 6, and 5, i think, really good season. it is an ink block test. you see caitlin clark, what do you see? some see hype. others see the truth. >> i see someone getting assaulted. >> we can talk about race. we can talk about socio-economics, whatever. the end of the day, there's always a good bit of just, like, jealousy. >> pitiful. >> here's a woman that came out of college, and she does state farm commercials. who knows how much she gets paid. all of these other endorsements. she's made more money before she

played her first game than most of the women out there. >> that's right. >> who have been struggling in the wnba year after year after year. >> yeah. >> so there's going to be resentment whoever that player is, right? >> totally. i mean, some of this is just haters gonna hate. there is an element of that. >> yeah. >> i hate to say it that way, but it's true. of course, as a woman who did attend middle school myself and high school, you know, college thereafter, sometimes women can be terrible to one another. which is not something we enjoy seeing. but i did watch this, and it felt really icky. it's not why i love watching the league. but i did wonder, and i'm hoping pablo can answer this for us, how much of this is in the environment -- we're talking about culture, race, class, but how much is it about the players are extraordinarily underpaid compared to the amount of joy and buzz that they have now

earned in american culture? >> yeah, i think there is a lot of -- there are so many people in this league who have been ignored forever, who are now getting a chance because the spotlight is shown upon caitlin clark, to do something in that refracted glow. for chennedy carter and lots of people who don't fit the -- look, chennedy carter is not a star, closer to an enforcer, is what we learned about her in the last weekend. some people want to say, we are a tough league. like, the nba, you guys complain about softness over there. the wnba has a history of beef. in this case, joe and mika, it's totally true. the refs missed it. it was a flagrant foul. she probably should have been ejected. she was not. >> yeah. >> it went too far. but in terms of the juice it gives you, john, this is why people are going to be watching. they're going to see, wait a minute, is america's sweetheart going to be beaten up? is she going to overcome that? that story is an irresistible

soap opera now on top of a legitimate sports story. >> undeniable, what a cheap shot that was. pablo, you mentioned the nba. they took two months off before the finals started, but they finally begin on thursday. briefly. >> yeah. >> here we go. mavericks and celtics. luka doncic, the best player of the series. mavericks have been the best team all year long. my heart, of course, lies with america's team, the boston celtics. >> oh, lord. >> give us your quick analysis. >> yeah, we have a luka doncic and kyrie irving pairing that is stable and thriving. i first talked to you guys because of kyrie irving, when he was unhinges and doing all sorts of stuff that was indefensible. >> all i want to say about kyrie irving in the short time is that he has been, from a p.r. perspective, acting, acting beautifully. on the basketball court, he has been incredible next to luka. off the court, he's said

nothing, seemingly quite stable. that combination, to me, they have the two best players on the court. the celtics are really, really good. john is fixing his face like he wants to fight me now. america's team? what, you think the celtics have all the answers for a duo that is more talented than any two players? you think tatum and brown won't joke? >> i think tatum is better than kyrie. kyrie irving has a history in boston. >> there is that. >> since he quit on the celtics a few years ago, he's not played well in that arena. that crowd going to be eager to see him. i think it is a long series, but i'll pick the celtics in seven. >> you know, pablo, and i've said this, i just haven't followed the nba much. it seems like, you know, guys kind of walk down the court and shoot it from 40 feet, it swishes, then they walk back. >> there are a lot of that, it's true. >> i don't know what it is about this playoff. i have been completely locked

in. and it's exciting. there are guys -- i had no idea. it shows how ignorant i am at become. i had no idea how great luka was. the guy is beyond extraordinary. i think the mavs just may pull it off. >> yes, yes. he is a basketball genius. luka doncic is a 6'10" slovenian basketball genius, the closest thing to lebron james since lebron james. me and joe scarborough are going on a road trip to dallas. forget liverpool. >> yeah, we're going to dallas. >> the host of "pablo torre finds out" on meadowlark media, espn's pablo torre. thank you very being on this morning. hope to see you really soon. >> the best. ahead on "morning joe," donald trump claims he never said hillary clinton should be locked up. >> didn't he do that repeatedly in 2016. >> he did, said it several

times. there is video tape. >> 2020. >> he keeps forgetting that he's on camera when he says these things. >> if you forget world war ii existed, you may forget what you said four, five, six, seven years ago. >> true. we'll be right back. >> if you forget who president of the united states is, thinks it's obama, you may forget that, too. >> we'll be right back. tardive dyskinesia, or td. so her doctor prescribed austedo xr— a once-daily td treatment for adults. ♪ as you go with austedo ♪ austedo xr significantly reduced kate's td movements. some people saw a response as early as 2 weeks. with austedo xr, kate can stay on her mental health meds— (kate) oh, hi buddy! (avo) austedo xr can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, or have suicidal thoughts. don't take if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. austedo xr may cause irregular or fast heartbeat,

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what they've done. these people are so evil. at the same time the country can come together. i'm saying this, but the country can come together. >> you famously said regarding hillary clinton, "lock her up." you declined to do that as president. >> i beat her. it is easier when you win. and they all said, "lock her up." i felt -- and i could have done it, but i felt it would have been a terrible thing, and then this happened to me. and so i may feel differently about it. i can't tell you -- i'm not sure i can answer the question. hillary clinton, i didn't say "lock her up," but the people will say it, okay. then we won. i said pretty openly, i said, "all right, come on, just relax. let's go. we have to make our country great." >> every time i mention her, everyone screams, "lock her up, lock her up," keep screaming. you know what i do? i've been nice. but after watching that performance last night, such lies, i don't have to be so nice anymore.

well, i used to say, just a couple of weeks ago, let's just beat her on november 8th. you know what? you have a point. crooked hillary clinton, oh, she's crooked, folks. she's crooked as a $3 bill. okay, here's one. just came out, "lock her up" is right. [ crowd chanting "lock her up" ]. >> for what she's done, they should lock her up. it's disgraceful. >> so crooked hillary -- wait. you should lock her up, i'll tell ya. lock up the bidens. lock up hillary. lock 'em up. >> that was, that final one, was just a few weeks before the 2020 election. when he was calling for the

imprisonment of his political opponent. >> i guess he agrees with -- >> by his attorney general. he kept saying, despite the lies to "fox and friends" weekend crew, which, of course, they didn't challenge him after he said that, he said, "lock her up" repeatedly, joined in, agreed with the crowd, repeatedly. the guy completely -- and this idea, jonathan lemire, that he didn't push after he was president of the united states to investigate hillary. he did time and again, and time and again, his attorney generals came back and said, "there is nothing to indict her on." >> i was struck by how many of the rallies, both in 2016 and 2020, i attended. this was one of the signature pieces of his act, was the "lock her up" chants from the crowd. he would egg it on and

eventually say he agreed with. as president, no longer candidate, as president, with the power of the government behind him, he absolutely asked attorney general jeff sessions and later bill barr if there were means to prosecute the clintons. the answer was no. then, as you just mentioned, there in the fall of 2020, we could see the polls, see that he was losing to joe biden, he pushed bill barr to investigate the bidens, as well. that, of course, did not come to pass. it was one of the reasons why barr -- >> well, he said to lock them up. he said biden should be locked up. he said that two weeks before the election. talk about something straight out of russia. there is a reason he admires putin. there is a reason he admires orban. there is a reason he is in love with kim jong-un and president xi. why he says president xi is so brilliant. he loves that they have the power of authoritarians, and that's what he wants. that's what he is promising his voters that they'll get if they vote for him. >> yeah, in the same interview over the weekend, he said that they would go after -- if he

were to win again, his department of justice would go after his political foes. he thinks that'd be fair play because of this case in manhattan which, of course, we know that joe biden, president biden, had nothing to do with. if there is better evidence of president biden not being involved with the intricaies of the doj, his beloved son, hunter biden, his own trial starts in a couple hours in delaware. joining the conversation, we have the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. nbc news and msnbc political analyst, former u.s. senator, claire mccaskill. she and jen palmieri hosts of the podcast "how to win 2024." good to have you. >> senator claire mccaskill -- >> former prosecutor. >> -- former prosecutor, talk about donald trump's lies over the weekend, saying he never

called for hillary clinton to be locked up. and how the guy who actually promoted the politicalization of the justice department the most is the one now lying, claiming that it was joe biden who started this investigation in 2018, before he was even the democratic nominee and was somehow responsible for the new york grand jury and a new york jury of 12 finding donald trump unanimously guilty on 34 counts, felonies. >> yeah, what's interesting about this is republicans, who are denigrating the institutions that make sure we have a rule of law in in the country that applies to everyone, these folks are advocating for red state d.a.s to go out and prosecute democrats.

donald trump, when he got to the white house, wanted the justice department to bend to his will and go after his political opponents. what they forget is the most essential ingredient in our rule of law is evidence. and evidence is not a democrat. evidence is not a republican. evidence is not a communist or a libertarian or a socialist. evidence is what comes into court for juries to consider. and the reason that donald trump is being prosecuted is not complicated. it's because of the evidence. i thought this interview was astounding in so many ways. how about him firing all the generals and putting in maga loyalists? can you imagine what that would do to our military? can you imagine the upheaval that would cause within a military that is so important right now with the world, in the kind of, you know, on knife's edge in terms of the middle east and in terms of what russia is trying to do, china's desire in terms of what they want to do

with their power in that part of the world. so i will. you know, when the masks slip, joe, when he said it is easier when you win, that phrase was really interesting to me. for a moment there, he was acknowledging that he ran once and didn't win. >> mm-hmm. >> you know, rev, the thing that, of course, his voters should know about donald trump, but they won't, but the thing that everybody else needs to understand, those swing voters who are going to decide who is the next president of the united states, is this is a guy that does not respect american democracy unless elections turn out in his favor. and he doesn't respect the rule of law, which actually, i think, is the bedrock of our constitutional republic. he doesn't respect the rule of law unless it gets to the

outcome that serves him the best. this weekend on "politics nation," you actually interviewed someone who can tell that story as well as anybody, and it is very personal to him. because donald trump was calling for this man's execution even after we all knew he was innocent. >> donald trump, who never took a public position on any race case in new york -- and i'm talking about killings in howard beach, i mean, people killed because of the color of their skin -- but when five young black and brown men, teenagers, were arrested and charged with raping and beating a white woman in central park, and some of us stood up and said, wait a minute, these people's families are saying they didn't do it, they weren't there. it doesn't make sense. they were convicted.

donald trump, who never took a position on anything else, took out full-page ads, actually spent money -- he is notorious for not paying bills -- took out ads in newspapers and called for them to have the death penalty. after dna evidence proved none of the five were there, he still refused to back down. so one of the five, who is now a member of the city council, came on my show this weekend because, as we see these polls talking about black men moving away from trump, they need to know what they're moving toward. here's a man who committed himself to the execution of young black men, even when the evidence was the other way. here's a man that was -- many of us are adversaries of the stop and frisk policy. nobody was closer to rudy giuliani in stop and frisk than donald trump. young black men are looking at someone who has never regarded

the letter of law for anybody, not just blacks, but specifically for blacks when he raised it. but he had no respect for law at all. when you have a man that now talks about judges and others like there's something wrong with them if they judge him, it is a threat for all of us. we need to understand this election is more than a race between two older men. this is about where we're going to have law in this country. >> and he doesn't respect the judges. he doesn't respect the rule of law. he doesn't respect american democracy unless he wins. when he loses, he undermines it, attacks america, says america is horrible. also, let's talk about the jury. >> yeah. >> him going after the jury even when his lawyer said the jury did a very good job. but think about the sacrifice those jurors made. for six weeks away from work, away from home, away from their

families, away from their lives. >> the stress. >> under incredible stress. now trump people trying to find out who they are to terrorize them, the threats. these people, these people sacrificed an awful lot. >> yeah. >> and for marco rubio to -- >> feed into that. >> -- to feed into the hatred, feed into the threats, saying that this is like castro's cuba. >> disgraceful. >> for other republicans to feed into that by suggesting that these americans, these american citizens who did their civic duty, who went and sat for six weeks, that, somehow, they're in line with joseph stalin and just the heinous show trials of the 1930s and the soviet union, it is unspeakable.

make no mistake. these republicans that attacked the jurors, that attack the decision, that attack the judicial decision and make those comparisons with the worst dictators of the 20th century, um, all they're doing is they're putting the lives of the judge, the family, the jurors, everybody in danger. >> yeah. and long-term ramifications for the country. november's presidential election has implications beyond our country's borders. in a new piece in "the atlantic" entitled "what europe fears" details how european leaders and nato are preparing for the potential re-election of joining us now, the author of the piece, staff writer at "the atlantic," mcckay coppins. what are they saying? >> european leaders are watching this closely.

the state secretary in germany actually told me in a year where billions of people around the world will have the opportunity to vote, the one election everyone in europe cares about and is paying attention to is the american presidential election. the other thing that struck me is that almost every official i spoke to believed that donald trump was going to win again. they say that with a sense of dread, in some cases, bordering on panic, honestly. you know, the word that i heard most often in these interviews was existential. they said if donald trump comes back -- you know, we made it through the first trump term, right? it took a toll on the transatlantic relationship. but they made it through. they said if he comes back, given what he has been saying about nato, given what he has been saying about russia, the war in ukraine, they're really afraid that it will be the end of nato and the gunning of a new stage of russian aggression, that europe, frankly, isn't

prepared for without america's support. >> mckay, let's dive into that a little more. from president macron of france, in particular, there's been this effort to make europe more independent or, let's say, less dependent on the u.s. in terms of military and financial strength. what other steps are he and his fellow european leaders taking to try to, if you will, trump-proof what they're doing right now ahead of his possible return? >> yeah, there have been a number of efforts recently proposed. one of them, as you mentioned, is, you know, developing defense autonomy in europe in a way that would potentially channel funds away from nato, which really does rely on america and toward the european defense alliance. there's been talk of taking the responsibility for arming ukraine, the literal logistical responsibility out of nato's hands. they don't know if a future

trump administration would abandon the war or not. really, the biggest change has been a lot of european allies are spending a lot more now on their own defense. this is one thing that, you know, trump takes credit for, and i have to say, a lot of the european officials i spoke to actually grudgingly gave him credit for. they said, you know, trump, by kind of being so vociferous about this issue that european allies aren't spending enough on defense has sort of bullied a lot of these countries into spending more. but it's come at a cost. that cost is that these european countries, while they are now spending more on collective defense, contributing more to nato, all don't trust america as a long-term ally the way they have for the last 75 years. when america becomes an unpredictable power or a transactional power, that changes the entire global order in ways they don't think we can predict right now. >> sure does. >> well, and we heard back in, i

think 2018, 2019, angela merkel, the chancellor of germany, saying we can no longer depend on the united states, basically with trump, because he is so erratic, we have to defend ourselves. it is something macron has said as well. it is damning with faint praise, claire mccaskill, is donald trump is making them spend more money on defense. they're spending more money on defense because they know they can't count on the united states, in their minds, if donald trump is president of the united states. mckay writes this also, that "almost every official i spoke with believed that trump is going to win." i hear that an awful lot from europe and hear it across the world. i think, claire, we should probably tell our friends not to bet too many euros or pounds or rubles on that fact. what you see on tv may not be what ends up happening in voting booths for swing voters in wisconsin, michigan, and washington. >> yeah, those three states,

particularly. really, biden has never been more than a point or two behind and, in many polls, has been ahead in those states which are incredibly important. mckay, i want to ask about what is going on in europe domestically in terms of their politics. we have seen in the united states populism and a strain of anti-immigration, nationalism, that's roiled our politics here. what is happening on that front in europe? it looks from a distance that they're having some of the issues internally within the conservative parties there, the anti-immigration, the populism. is that something that europe is also worried about? >> oh, no question. you know, the fear of trump's return in europe is of a piece with the fear of a broader rise of right-wing populism and nationalism across europe. we've seen it in the uk. we've seen it in italy. in germany, the afd party, which

is the far-right party, there was one recent poll that found that 25% of germans now identify with that party. that's a pretty extreme party. there's no question that throughout western democracies and really in europe especially, we've seen lot of the same forces that contributed to trump's rise. to that, europeans say it through that prism. we get it. we have our own issues here. some allies have elected leaders like donald trump. it's different when it happens in america. america is not only the linchpin of nato alliance, it is, in a lot of ways, seen as kind of big brother, right? european countries rely on america for security. they rely on it for leadership. they rely on america to set an example to the world for what a well-functioning western democracy should look like. a lot of the anxiety about this

election in europe stems from the fact that they're seeing this kind of chaos in american democracy and wondering if the city on a hill can still be looked to as an example. that causes a lot of alarm among our friends in europe. >> the new piece is online now for "the atlantic." staff writery coppins, thank you for writing the piece and being on the show. coming up, melinda french gates announces a donation for women's rights. one of the recipients is an organization for boys and men. we'll explain how this can help with the fight for gender equality. that's ahead on "morning joe." what causes a curve down there? is it peyronie's disease? will it get worse? how common is it? who can i talk to? can this be treated? stop typing.

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live look at the plaza, 30 rock, at 44 past the hour. welcome back the "morning joe." philanthropist melinda french gates has announced she will be donating $1 billion over the next two years to support women's rights. in a guest essay for "the new york times" regarding her decision, french gates writes, quote, "in nearly 20 years as an advocate for women and girls, i have learned that there will

always be people who say it is not the right time to talk about gender equality. it's frustrating and short sided. a research on economics, well-being, and governance make it clear that investing in women and girls benefits everyone. one of the grants recipients was the american institute for boys and men. joining us now is that organization's president. also with us, professor of marketing at the nyu stearns school of business, scott galloway. good to have you both. richard, i'll toss to you first here. i'll ask why this grant makes sense overall for women's rights. >> well, i think what melinda french gates has realized is that a world of floundering men is difficult to be a world of flourishing women. we do have to rise together. the investing in particularly

young men and education, mental health, et cetera, in the long run, will be good for women. men and women will be raising children together. there is growing evidence that many young men are struggling in education, mental health, et cetera, especially young men, i'd say, and men of color above all. it's a recognition that gender equality movement has to expand to include boys and men, as well. coming from a figure with such prominent like melinda french gates, with such a strong track record of leadership, i think it sends a strong signal that we do now need to include boys and men in this conversation. >> to your point, scott galloway, you've been a great voice on this. on the state of young men in america right now, explain the challenges. because equality doesn't necessarily mean that each side is the same. men and women have differences. but what's happening to young men is equally as potentially as disturbing. >> yeah, good to be with you. congratulations to my friend, richard reeves.

this is a great american story. yeah, look, unfortunately, young men are paying for the advantage that me and my father received, so there is a lack of empathy. richard turned me on to this quote. empathy is not a zero sum game. gay marriage didn't hurt hetero marriage. when men come off the tracks, as they are doing, especially among younger men, they're more prone to nationalist content and misogynistic content. an investment in boys an investment in society and women. >> richard, it's so fascinating. maybe five years ago, when people like scott galloway, three years ago, were talking about this, and a lot of people threw their hands up. oh, my god, how dare you talk about boys when men have been dominant through, you know,

thousands and thousands of years. you heard the complaints. what mika and i on a very personal level, but so much anecdotal evidence that i suspect a lot of people hearing this, are young women talking to mika, talking to mika and me going, where are the men? >> right. >> the men to date. where are the men that understand the basics? there's like this horrible choice. on one side, you do have, again, all anecdotal, but you have -- well, i'm not going to wander into that minefield, what i was about to say. let's just say, younger women are understanding the costs of the male crisis right now. >> yeah. >> they're understanding it -- >> or they're living the costs.

>> they're living the costs of it. >> what's interesting is these stories, you say anecdotal, but it's in the evidence. it's in the data. we see there's a big gender gap in college today than in the '70s, just the other way around. the biggest rise in suicide rates, tragically, has been among young men. we're losing 40,000 men a year to suicide. what i've discovered is if you have -- it's among parents, if you have a boy in the k-12 education system, you kind of get this immediately, and if you have a daughter in the dating market, you kind of get this immediately, too. and realizing that you just can't separate these two things out. it is not a betrayal of the ideals of gender equality to start dealing with the issues of boys application of the ideals of gender equality. it's not a zero-sum game as scott said. i think that depends on it dropping. people are realizing we cannot neglect the problems of boys and

men. it's not anecdotal, it's in the data. we got to take this seriously. >> scott, i was particularly interested on what ms. gates has done, i salute her for it in terms of investing in young men and boy. and i think you and richard mentioned young boys and men of color. because of many us, in any study has shown, disproportionately are raised by single mothers. i was one of them. and to help those young boys and men that are buttressed by programs like yours and to develop them also helps the single mothers who are trying to balance life because they are single mothers disproportionately and in minority communities. talk about the challenge of that, and how this could be

helpful there? >> well, reverend, you and i share that. we were raised by superheroes. my mother was a single immigrant mother, a secretary, raised me on her own. and what the research shows is that the single point of failure if you were to reverse engineer as to why white men are struggling is when they lose a male role model. we have a single parent household which is lacking for a woman leading the household alone just behind sweden. in addition as richard has pointed out the vast majority of people in primary education are women. a boy is twice as likely to be suspended in school and five times as lucky if he's a black boy. what you have is a cohort of men being raised individually. what richard's research has shown and it's so fascinating and important is that while boys are physically stronger, they're

mentally and emotionally weaker. and we need to acknowledge that. we need a group of thriving young men. how many times have we heard people say i know a ton of single women who are great and i can't find any men for them. you can't find men for them, just not any men they want. we need people to level up in general and specifically young men. >> and how, richard, as we leave, this is a generational crisis, and we hear it, again, we hear it every day. and mika and i hear it, not only from women, girls in their teens or women in their 20s, we hear it from women in their 30s and 40s. and they will say that especially women in their 20s that -- >> there's nobody worth dating. >> there's nobody worth dating. they are playing video games. of course, this is a massive

generalization, i understand that. there's some great guys out there. but the numbers just show, they're not graduating from college at a rate that women are, they're not taking jobs at the rate women are. and anecdotally, what we get, they spend their days on video games, porn and watching netflix and just saying at their parents' house. i don't know -- when did this happen? when did this happen? >> it's a slow-burning crisis. this hasn't happened overnight. we've seen this in the education system now going on for years. but i do think it's important here not to end up blaming young men entirely for that plot. >> no. >> it's a bit of -- i don't want us to kind of roll our eyes here and say, well, if they would just get out of the basement or whatever, we have an education system that's just not working very well. 23% of boys in the k-12 system in the u.s. have been diagnosed with a developmental disability.

we're just failing them. aslluded to. we reduced the male teachers to 20%. we're emptied out of our classrooms. and the labor market has turned about men of color. so, these are structural challenges that many men are facing. and we have to deal with them as such and not fall into the trap, and not just, well, if they would buff up a bit, man-up, et cetera, these would take to the societies. >> president of the american institute for boys and men, richard reeves, thank you very much. and nyu's scott galloway, thank you so much. scott's recent book entitled "the algebra of wealth: the simple formula" is on sale now.

>> it is a great book. coming up, can the white house find a way to end the war until gaza and bring home the hostages? president biden may soon find out with his knew proposal for a cease-fire in the middle east. david ignatius weighs in on that when "morning joe" comes right back. s. ok, but why is shaq coming too? to show you how it's done. ♪♪ for a great low rate, go with the general. before planning the big trip you were limping thanks to a bad knee. then, you heard about mako robotic-assisted knee replacement. it starts with a ct scan to pinpoint the problem. that becomes a personalized, 3d plan to guide your doctor during surgery. mako can help lead to better outcomes, like less pain and shorter recovery times. the lifetime of a knee implant is limited, and revision surgery may be required. individual results and recovery times vary.

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president under felony indictment. >> timely? >> no, actually, he thought the government would grind to a halt. >> yeah. >> if the president of the united states -- >> exactly, can't have a convict president. plus, we'll go to the presidential race after his conviction last week in new york city. we're back in one minute. one mie so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection,

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she shouldn't be allowed to run. okay? that's it. >> there's virtually no doubt that fbi director comey and the great, great special agents of the fbi will be able to collect more than enough evidence to garner indictments against hillary clinton and her inner circle, despite her efforts to disparage them and discredit them. if she were to win this election, it would create an unprecedented constitutional crisis. in that situation, we could very well have a sitting president under felony indictment and ultimately a criminal trial. it would grind government to a halt.

wow. >> well, that was then candidate donald trump. >> yeah. >> just three days before the 2016 election. saying a president under felony indictment would grind the government to a halt. and create a constitutional crisis. he got the premise right, just the players wrong, as he is now the first former u.s. president and candidate to be convicted. of a crime. >> i mean, what he said, she should not be able to run. it would create an unprecedented constitutional crisis if someone with a felony was running for president and got elected, it would grind government to a halt. also, taking note, that at that time, donald trump actually didn't despise the fbi, or hate the fbi. he actually loved the fbi because it's all situational. just like he loves this country in a situational way.

just like too many of his supporters only love this country if donald trump is the president of the united states. and if donald trump is not the president of the united states, they turn on the men and women of the fbi. they turn on america. they turn on american democracy. they say this country is horrible. it's all very situational. not the way i was raised. i love this country. i don't turn flags upside down if my candidate doesn't win. i don't lie for four years saying my candidate really won the election. it's just crazy. she should not be able to run an unprecedented constitutional crisis. >> the country would grind to a halt. >> so, the question, mika, again really is here. again, it's never about trump. >> no. >> it's about -- how is it going -- >> just getting your coffee hot?

>> you want it hot? >> you want it hot. as on the note. >> thank you very much. >> you're welcome. >> you're welcome. >> you must have thought i was lagging here and i wasn't awake enough. but it's not donald trump that we're surprised by. it's the people that continue to follow a guy who is so clearly a hypocrite, who so clearly is situational who goes from saying he loves the fbi to hating the fbi. goes from saying america is the worst country in the world to saying america is great again. and then when he loses saying he didn't lose and america is a terrible country. america, the greatest country, greatest country on the face of the earth, by just about every measure, i believe that. and i love america. i love america. i don't see it through the prism of who is sitting in the white house and whether this is a great country or not.

it's a great country. sometimes, sometimes i think some presidents are better than others. but my god, it is -- it's staggering. >> yeah. >> that donald trump supporters -- >> that's the staggering. >> -- convinced themselves, they hate america, because donald trump says he hates america because america is weak. and they rag on the military all the time. they say it's weak. and woke. we've got the most powerful military in the world. they rag on our economy saying our economy is terrible. some think, oh, it's going towards a depression. we have the strongest economy in the world. relative to the rest of the world, there's not a close second. america is more powerful today than it has been in a very long time. relevant to the rest of the world. >> despite what you think of joe biden. but i think the thing that's

most scary and troubling and deadly serious is the republican party. >> and -- >> -- and the rnc. that part of the equation is where we don't know how this ends. >> it's sad, it's sad primarily for the republican party because they're going to lose again. and after all of these years of losing from 2017 through 2023, jonathan lemire, you would think they would have learned by now. and i'm dead serious here. you'd think they would -- you know, you know, occasionally people will get on other shows and say, oh, they're always attacking the republicans. i'm here. i've been trying. i've been on a mission of mercy since 2016, trying to save the republican party from themselves. they haven't listened and they

lost. they didn't listen in 2017, and they lost. they didn't listen in 2018 and they lost. 2019, they lost, 2020 they lost, 2021, they lost. '22, '23, they lost. so, they always think they're so clever, they always think they're so stuff. they're 1962 new york mets. and at some point, somebody needs to wake up and go, hey, guys, we suck at this game of politics, we need a new manager. >> think of the moments that republicans could have cut donald trump loose. they could have parted ways with him. right after the november 2020 election. they chose not to. right after january 6, and that subsequent impeachment trial, when it did seem like he was at his low water mark, they chose not to. during the january 6 committee hearings where all of that has resurfaced for national consumption, they chose not to. after the 2022 midterms when

trump's candidates pretty good for the senate, lost, donald trump lost, and people were questioning whether people should run again. and he rushed his campaign announcement and there was a sense he was doing so to try to avoid prosecution but it wasn't actually anything good for the party. they could have done it then. they chose not to. and now during the primary process, they could have gone in another direction. trump refused to even debate his rivals. republicans chose not to, e. jean carroll and now this. a moment where there's a criminal conviction, not only are republicans not cutting donald trump loose, they're wrapping themselves even tighter to him with very few exceptions. republicans have cut out in recent days and denounced this was a travesty of justice, rallied behind donald trump and suggested this was a department of justice witch hunt, that it was a political prosecution. and they have attached their

fate to his yet again. and there is no sense that's going to change between now and november. and what we're seeing as we're getting in this morning, some early polls that suggest modest but real movement away from trump after this conviction. there's warning signs. >> oh, yeah. >> there for the republicans and they're ignoring them. >> that's the thing, mika. is maybe marco rubio thinks it's hacking juries, plays well with his base, i'm not so sure. i think most americans respect other americans that sit for six weeks doing a good job. even trump's own attorney said the jury was serious, they did a good job. you know -- >> paid attention. >> -- they paid attention. and he did not find fault with them at all. he said they paid attention and did their job. but you get marco rubio and

other republicans who, agai because they want donald trump to notice them, attack an institution like america's jury system and then compares united states of america, the usa compares us, us to castro's communist -- >> oh, my god. >> -- cuba. yeah. what's happened to marco rubio? where is he? because that's -- that is so deeply unsettling. not for us, for him. for the republican party. for the people who vote for him, for the people who vote for this republican party. because you're losing when you talk this way, when you attack the rule of law, when you attack the fbi. when you attack jurors. maybe you get $25 in fundraising

like, you know, blitzes, but you lose independent voters. you lose swing voters in wisconsin. in michigan. in pennsylvania. and you lose elections. and they keep doing this, and they keep losing elections. and again, i wonder how long can they keep going off the cliff for this guy. >> you know, at some point, people who are cooling into this election which historically starts to happen the weeks before the election, they're going to see all of these saying it's the biden election. it's biden, biden. hunter biden is going to court. so biden must be the worst co-opter, if this is the biden department of justice. which we all know there's no

evidence of that in this criminal trial where trump was convicted of 34 felony counts. 34, across the board, from beginning to end. every single count was guilty. that's resounding. so, you know, good luck with that argument. >> yeah. >> and it only lasts until people start reading. >> or if they look at what peter alexander said yesterday, when a member of the united states senate tried it on him. here's peter. >> let me just clarify a couple things for the audience right now. as you know well, this was a state case. donald trump was indicted by a grand jury in new york. he was convicted by a jury of 12 new yorkers beyond a reasonable doubt. they didn't seek this responsibility. joe biden, as you know, had nothing to do with this case, senator. in fact, the manhattan d.a.'s investigation, this case began in 2018 when joe biden wasn't even the party, the democratic party's presidential nominee. when you talk about what joe

biden's department of justice has done. joe biden's department of justice is prosecuting cases of robert menendez, henny cuellar and the democratic justice. let me ask you about president trump, in the first official re-election event, donald trump proclaimed i am your retribution. he said he will appoint a special prosecutor to, in his words go after joe biden and his family. if it's go objectionable for the justice system to be, as you say, weaponized against donald trump, why is it acceptable for donald trump to campaign on weaponizing the doj against joe biden. >> well, a serious answer to that, by the way, go back to 2020, two weeks before the election. i keep bringing this up, republicans for some reason aren't bothered by it. but two weeks before the election in 2020 donald trump went to barr, his attorney

general, and ordered him to arrest joe biden, hunter biden and the biden family. ordered, two weeks before the election. he ordered the arrest of his political opponent. and barr refused to do it. one of the reasons why he left. let's bring in also with us, a member of "the new york times" editorial maura gay and the editor paul stein. and u.s. national editor ed lewis. maura, i thought peter laid it out pretty darn well. here you have the biden justice department actually going after joe biden's son and democratic members of congress but not going after donald trump in new york. because that case, that investigation, again in 2018, in 2018, and, again, as peter points out, on this maga bs

about joe biden orchestrating this, always overlooks the fact that, well, we've got a system, unfortunately, for poor marco, that the communist -- the communists in cuba don't have. we have a grand jury system. a grand jury found probable cause. a jury of 12 new yorkers, 12 of his peers, unanimously found him guilty on 34 counts. >> yes. >> yet, they continue. go ahead. it's absolute nonsense. >> it must be extraordinarily broad conspiracy. because in order for it to be real, it would have have to involve members the jury who we know simply were just teachers from harlem. it would have to involve all kinds of people across a series of years across a series of states that are really invested in overturning our democracy.

it's not actually palpable, it's not in theory, it reminds me of the exchange between brad raffensperger and donald trump that we know about. it's just impossible for any impartial serious observer to believe that it would be a republican secretary of state that would be, you know, interested in stealing an election from donald trump. all of this just requires us just to suspend belief. and it's preying won a series of campaign that unfortunately the trump base has been consuming now for years. and i think the thing to focus on, i think, in the months ahead, the more the republican party continues to wrap itself up with trump and trumpism, the more anybody who is not in that base is going to be extremely motivated to show up at the polls.

because in some ways, i think this election is going to be decided by -- not by trump's base. we know what they will do, in some ways. but actually by everybody else, not just democrats. independents and republicans across the country, who are looking at this and are extremely concerned that if donald trump does return to office, that this may be a presidency that looks -- he may be more like a king in some ways. and i have a colleague who wrote about that today. there are serious concerns about whether there are going to be checks on power for a president who sees the presidency as a retribution. i actually see the more this goes on, the more the rest of america as a majority is going to be motivated to show up at the polls and that helps joe biden. the real issue for democrats is how to motivate people to the polls. it's not how they feel about donald trump. >> right. >> this will only really help to keep donald trump out of the

white house, i believe. >> i total agree. and we're going to show you a poll that abc did along with ipsos which points to that fact -- mika, in one second -- i do want to go to ed luce, though, and ed, i was not watching because i do my best not to watch live donald trump. >> oh, yes. >> and i'll go back and i'll look at it later. or read about it. and any people that are just going to spew lies for as long as he did. but i started getting texts from people in the biden campaign that i know. and they were like, thank god. trial's over. this is the moment we've been waiting for. >> uh-huh. >> stay up there, donald, keep talking, donald. again, the idea, the idea that

the biden campaign or joe biden wanted donald trump locked down for six weeks, not going out, not sounding crazy. not sounding a lot crazier than he did four or five years ago, completely takes the wrong view of what's going on here. the biden campaign loved what they saw on friday because they know what people on the inside of the trump campaign know. and that is that donald trump is getting even crazier. even -- when i say crazier, i mean angrier, more unmoored from reality. and the one thing he has completely stopped doing is asking, hey, what do you think of this? or what do you think of that? he's just completely raging and on his own. >> yeah. i mean, i take the same sort of steps as you do, joe, to protect

my mental health. i try not to watch too much of this live. this is the one, of course, where he calls the judge, judge merchan the devil and many other things. you know, his sentencing hearing is july the 11th, just four days before we're going to be in milwaukee for the rnc convention. i don't know what will judge merchan is going to sentence him to, whether it's going to be -- you know, some community service, cleaning toilets at the port, picking up trash at the park. but we can, i believe, probably safely bet that donald trump that week in milwaukee is going to be in the same kind of frame of mind that we saw last friday when you took those precautions for your mental health, not to watch it. i have to say one thing. you mentioned rubio's comparison of the new york trial to the cuban justice system.

even more frequently cited comparison by republicans, by many republican senators by the federalist society and others last friday was between the new york court and the moscow show trials, the obvious show trials of the 1930s. these were trials where the defendant had confessions extracted by torture. heard before starting appointing judges with no jury. let alone juries that have been selected partly by the defense which resulted in prescripted sentences that then resulted in their execution. the level of ignorance to compare this system to what happened in russia is quite remarkable. and i think the fact that people like putin and orban of hungary

were repeating those talking points on friday, saying this is a rigged trial, this is a corrupt -- shows the corruption of america proves that point. it's an extraordinary level of ignorance and insult to the intelligence of americans when people say this. coming up, we'll get to that abc poll that joe just mentioned after a quick 90-second break as we weigh in on the numbers straight ahead on "morning joe." centrum! it's scientifically formulated to help you take charge of your health. centrum gives every body a healthy foundation. supporting your - oops - energy, immunity and metabolism. and yours too! you did it! plus try centrum silver, now clinically proven to support memory in older adults.

a new polling from abc news and ipsos is giving us our first snapshot at how independent voters feel about last week's verdict. although 45% say the verdict was politically motivated, more than half of all independents, 52% believe the jury reached the right conclusion. and think it should end donald trump's 2024 campaign. those numbers are even higher among the voters who with unfavorable opinions of both trump and president joe biden, the so-called double-haters. among that group, 65% say the verdict was correct. and 67% say it should end trump's bid for the white house. >> keep it there for a second. >> i believe, donald trump how

we came in on the show here. >> yeah. so, sam stein, we're looking at this double-haters, everybody is talking about the double-haters, the people that don't like biden, people that don't like trump. actually, if you dig into that, they are -- of course, pollsters say they're the most important group. when you dig into it, you know, you actually get a lot of hated -- a lot of animosity towards donald trump. and joe biden, it's eh, he's too old. he's a good guy. too old, don't want him in there. so double-haters actually is a bit of a misnomer. but they always seem to break overwhelmingly to biden's way. we see it again, 67% of this undecided group that's going to determine the outcome of this election saying that the convictions should end donald trump's campaign. what say you, mr. stein?

>> well, i think it's an alarming number, if you're donald trump, obviously. you can't afford to bleed that type of support anywhere. but that bloc in particular, he's going to win his supporters, we know that. what we know, those people on the fence wary of joe biden breaking his way. i'm going to hold it for snapshot polls, right after the verdict, people with reaction to the news. we're also five months out, as jonathan pointed out rightfully at the top of this. we have a lengthy history of people circling back towards trump after egregious political moment, january 6 among them. let's wait and see about these poll numbers. i will say, it obviously doesn't

benefit donald trump having 34 guilty counts against him. it's not what any candidate would want. i think he's trying to turn it into some local favor. i don't think it's ignorance that people are comparing it to the trial. they know exactly what they're doing. they're trying to discredit the justice system because that's the card they have to play here. the question, joe, that you raised here, will the public, or at least a good portion of the public look that the and say, you know what, i'm all for it. or will they say our foundation and rule of law is too important. and it was telling to me when joe biden came out and offered his first remarks on the trial last week. he did not go after the substance of the verdict. no one expected him to do that. what he did, he got really heated about the efforts of republicans to undermine the rule of law. i think that's where he wants to point his anger. and that's the case he wants to

make for the election. coming up, we're going to go live to delaware where the president's son hunter biden goes on trial today. we'll have a preview of that case when "morning joe" comes right back. my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis held me back... now with skyrizi, i'm all in with clearer skin. ♪ things are getting clearer...♪ ( ♪♪ ) ♪ i feel free... ♪ ♪ to bear my skin, yeah that's all me. ♪ ♪ nothing is everything ♪ ( ♪♪) with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. and most people were clearer even at 5 years. skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions... ...and an increased risk of infections... ...or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms,... ...had a vaccine, or plan to.

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now, let's turn to the legal part of this and bring in former litigator at msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. lisa, i hope had you a chance to catch your breath after a frenzied stretch. we're a couple days out from the verdict. for additional reaction, now that you've had time to sit with this as to how it went down, give us your latest thoughts in what the prosecution may seek in terms of help. >> let's start there. the prosecution, notwithstanding donald trump's efforts to say the people won't stand for his serving any jail time, i would be very surprised if the manhattan d.a.'s office doesn't

seek some sort of jail time here. the reason is for two reasons, jon, the severity of the conduct, 34 counts each of which can be punished up to four years. of course, they're not going to seek four years for each of these counts. rather, they've asked for some sort of concurrent sentence where they're all grouped together. but it's hard for me to imagine that given the multiple counts here's they're not going to seek jail time. the other feature is lack of remorse shown by the defendant. not only do we have a defendant who has already been found in criminal contempt ten times, but he continues to say things about the verdict, about the process, about participants in the process who are covered by the gag order, and theoretical violations of that gag order that haven't been brought to justice merchan's attention that could be part of any sentencing procedure. when he goes out and says, for example, that this is all a

biden administration-led cabal, because one of the prosecutors happened to have served in the biden department of justice, that's the only connection at all that they can draw, that is a person who shows no remorse. a person who says the process is rigged. that the judge is corrupt, that the district attorney didn't want to bring this case but only did so under political pressure, that is a person who doesn't believe they did anything wrong as he continues to say and i expect that to play a major factor in his sentencing. >> well, lisa, one of the questions, i've had, obviously, we have no precedent for a former sitting president to be convicted of a felony on 34 counts. at the same time, if you're the judge, judge merchan must be thinking, okay, i have to look at precedent in terms of sentencing, what is fair. so is there other high-profile cases you think he may be looking at? are there other examples that he

can look to say this might be what it looks like? what would be fair? there's no precedent that we're running blind here? >> judge merchan is a person who historically has not been particularly lenient with white collar defendants. it's also not the case despite what trump and his allies continues to say that falsification of business records is not an offense in manhattan, in fact gets prosecuted all the time. what might be modeled here is the combination of falsification of business records and election law conspiracy under state law, new york election law 17152. that's the crime that trump said nobody has any idea what i'm accused of. that's not true at all. again, if you're looking historically with how people committed falsification of business records that get bumped up to a felony because there's an underlying crime that they intended to conceal, that happens all the time in manhattan. and judge merchan will take that into consideration. coming up, will israel's

leader accept the deal to end the war in gaza and free the hostages by hamas? david ignatius breaks down the high stakes by president's biden's new push for a cease-fire. that's next on "morning joe." these days everyone is staring at screens, scanning the news, and watching their spending. good vision is more important than ever, but so especially now is saving. that's why america's best includes a free eye exam when you buy two pairs of glasses for just $79.95, that's a savings of at least sixty nine bucks. two pairs for $79.95. includes a free exam. that's not just a better deal, it's america's best. book an exam online today

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♪♪ a senior israeli official tells nbc news president biden's description of the latest cease-fire proposal is, quote, not accurate. the official specifically disputed that israel had agreed to fully withdraw its troops from gaza, a clause that's in the second phase of the proposal. the comment comes as far right members of the israeli government have voiced their opposition to the proposal. president biden announced the framework on friday, describing it as a, quote, durable end to

the conflict. the three-phased plan begins with a six-weeks truce and the return of women, children and other vulnerable hostages, in exchange for the release of hundreds of palestinian prisoners. israeli troops would also withdraw from populated areas of gaza. the second phase would see a permanent end to the war, as well as the release of the remaining hostages. the third phase outlines a three to five-year period of reconstructing gaza and the establishment of a non-hamas palestinian government. hamas has responded positively to the proposal so far. joining us now, columnist and associate editor for "the washington post" david ignatius. david, president biden seems to be quite out front on this. what do you make of the israeli response? >> so, i think president biden is trying to force prime

minister netanyahu to make a choice. in a way there are two bb netanyahus. there's the person ahead of the cabinet. and that person, from everything i know, signed off on the consensus of military leaders, the 56 vision that president bi laid out is correct. there's another president netanyahu ahead of the coalition which has extreme right-wing members, knows that if he presses forward with biden deal, his coalition will fall. already two key members have said accepting this deal would be absolute defeat for israel. another said he would immediately quit the government. so, netanyahu's government will fall if he takes the deal. if he doesn't take the deal, there's every likelihood that he'll be replaced because he's not popular in israel.

and we are heading towards a scenario where russians are becoming increasingly likely. what biden has done is try to force the issue, make israeli choose, make the people choose an incredible path of bringing the hostages home and winding the war down and continuing with inquiry's fundamentally disorganized approach to war. he still doesn't have a plan for what we call the day after. he just talks about needing to fight and fight until we have victory which our cia and intelligence thinks generally is an impossible goal. coming up, the next guest serves on the president's advisory board. congressman ro khanna stands by

which what would be the more cycle in america. "morning joe" returns in a moment.

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welcome back. a new novel is bringing together for the very first time the work of two of the greatest writers of modern fiction. the book which has the title "eruption" follows a team of scientists trying to prevent the fatal consequences of a historic volcanic eruption. the novel was started by best-selling author michael creighton in 1994 which wasn't finish and he unfinished: >> james and jerri join us now.

thank you both for being here. let's start with you. the backstory of this book, your husband was working on it before he passed away. tell us how far he had gotten and why you decided it needed to be completed. >> well, it got far enough along to where i was left with a cliffhanger that was completely unexpected, obviously. and so i went searching back for all the files and everything. i couldn't find what i needed. and it had such richness to the story. it was true creighton through and through and his love of hawaii and all the twists and turns that he was famous for, all of his scientific detail. i was, like, i can't just stop right here. i have to have the next, what's next. >> what's next was me. >> so tell us, since michael was 6'9", she went shorter. >> why was james the guy?

>> because, number one, i always loved james' work, jim now, as i call him. i love jim's work. and i was, like, you know, he has what it needs, which is that page turning, that great pace, the attention to characters, and i needed that. and i was, like, why would i go anywhere but big? i need two great minds on that page collaborating together. >> and i had been a huge fan forever. i think i've read all of his novels, and it was a challenge for me because i usually don't have a lot of science in my stories, and to keep a fast-paced story with science in it. i thought that would be exciting. and, also, i think this is the kind of novel that used to be -- you don't get them anymore, the kind of novel where you want to keep reading, but you don't want

it to end. that's what i think this book is. >> you mentioned the challenge of having to incorporate the science, which michael was so famous for addressing. but, also, you're being handed something that was partially completed. you do work with collaborators at times, but this is a different challenge. walk us through how you made it happen. >> i think the hard thing here, and i do challenge readers, and a lot of people -- it's number one on amazon, which is spectacular. but i challenge readers to figure out where michael stopped and where i begin. and that was a challenge, and i really wanted to do that, because in a way, this is sort of like another chapter in their love story. because this book was so important to them. that was pressure, too. >> of course it was, we'll get to your verdict in a second. tell us a little more about the plot. >> i feel like trump now, oh, my god. >> tell us a little bit more

about what readers should expect. >> you know, fast-paced but smart. the thing that michael had done, and it was in the pages he had written is two story lines. one is a volcano that threatens to destroy the island of hawaii, but there's something on the island, toxic waste that could have a major effect on the world and destroy plant life on the world. when i was reading it, i was like, oh, my god, this is pure crichton. to some extent, the voice was there. >> last word to you, are you happy with how it turned out and how do you think your husband would feel? >> i think michael would be so proud. he would be excited. my son is excited. he was, like, oh, my gosh, mom. >> sherry was pregnant when michael died. >> yes, i was pregnant when michael died, and that was one

of the main reasons why i got into his work so deep the way i did. when i found this piece, a piece that he had always talked about, i just knew it had to be completed. >> we are certainly glad it is. two of the absolute biggest names in modern fiction. the new novel "eruption" is on sale now and number one on amazon, we just learned. coauthor james patterson. thank you very much for being here. up next on "morning joe," we're going to continue to follow the fallout from donald trump's criminal conviction and how voters are reacting to the guilty verdict. our friend lawrence o'donnell will join the discussion. keep it right here on "morning joe." tees. and underwear. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order.

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i just want to say a few words about what happened yesterday in new york city. the american principle that no one is above the law was

reaffirmed. >> if they can do this to me, they can do this to anyone. these are bad people, these are, in many cases, i believe, sick people. >> donald trump was given every opportunity to defend himself. >> i would have testified. i wanted to testify. the theory is you never testify. >> our justice system has endured for nearly 250 years and it literally is the cornerstone of america. >> anybody, if it were george washington, don't testify, because they'll get you on something that you said slightly wrong. you could go into every single thing that i ever did, was he a bad boy here, was he a bad boy there? >> the jury heard five weeks of evidence, five weeks. after careful deliberation, the jury reached a unanimous verdict. >> i would like them to say, gee, we have to have a little sorrow for this man, because they just don't say that about me. >> it's reckless, it's dangerous, it's irresponsible for anyone to say this was

rigged just because they don't like the verdict. >> it was a rigged trial. we had a conflicted judge, highly conflicted. there's never been a more conflicted judge. >> the justice system should be respected and we should never allow anyone to tear it down. it's as simple as that. that's america. that's who we are. >> the people of our current know it's a hoax. they get it. we're living in a fascist state. >> it's really unbelievable that he still has as many people following him as he does, that republicans compare -- that republicans compare the united states of america, republican politicians, to castro's cuba, to stalin's soviet union. these tyrannical thugs. here you had a grandeur eye

finding probable cause against donald trump, and then you had a jury of 12 new yorkers, a jury of donald trump's peers, finding him guilty on all 34 counts. and there's so many safeguards. i suspect that donald trump's team will appeal, and it may be overturned on the legal grounds. we don't know. but that's probably their best chance. they don't have the facts on their side in this case, they may ultimately have the law on their side on appeal. but we don't know. you know why? because we're americans, because we have to wait and see how it actually turns out. it's the same thing with, by the way, hunter biden, whose trial begins -- >> they're in court right now. >> you will not hear democrats, nor have you heard democrats calling america a fascist state,

because the president's son is facing charges brought by the justice department and the biden administration. strange enough, you don't hear this. i'm just hoping for independent voters, for people whose minds haven't been warped, by the harsh ideology of the past eight, nine, ten years, i hope they're listening. and above all, i hope that they don't get swayed by people who are constantly trashing the united states of america, saying that we have a weak, woke, military, when our men and women in armed forces are stronger than ever, stronger relative to the rest of the world than ever. they say we have a weak, pathetic economy. our economy is the envy of the world. it really is. you can say what you want to say about it. but there's not a world leader anywhere that wouldn't trade with the united states of america in a second.

and then, of course, you have a justice system that is the envy of the world. >> right. >> which donald trump trashes. he trashes american democracy when he loses elections, and he trashes the judicial system when he loses court cases. >> what was so interesting about this case is that the evidence was clear, like when you ask most experts who have studied the law and you say what happened in this trial, they say evidence happened. they had all the evidence, which led to 34 guilty counts, again, a resounding verdict, a resounding verdict. so when donald trump says most of what we just showed you was him lying, but the one thing he said was right, and that is if they do this to me, they can do this to anyone. yes, anyone who had sex with a porn star while his wife was pregnant and found ways to pay off the playboy bunny and found

ways through a fixer to pay off the porn star, thereby breaking campaign laws and falsifying documents. yes, someone who does that, it can happen to you as well. that's called the law. >> and as i said, if a member of congress, if a senator or a house member had done this, they would have been found guilty of basic campaign finance rules, a long, long time ago. again, it's a lack of respect for america, a lack of respect for america's institutions, and that's what donald trump thrives on, the tearing down of america, the tearing down of american institutions, the tearing down of american democracy, the tearing down of our court system, which, again -- which, again, leaves open the possibility for an appeal, leaves open the possibility of these 34 felony counts being reversed. >> the former president right

now faces sentencing in six weeks, just days before he is set to accept his party's presidential nomination. nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson has the latest. >> reporter: former president trump overnight saying he hopes to take his case to the country's highest court, posting the supreme court must decide, as he now braces for what could come at his sentencing in six weeks. >> the judge could decide to say house arrest or even jail. how do you face that? >> i'm okay with it. >> reporter: an extraordinary moment after his unprecedented felony conviction on 34 counts of falsifying business records. the penalties now ranging from probation to prison time, which is technically possible, legal experts say, but highly unlikely. >> i'm not sure the public would stand for it. i think it would be tough for the public to take. at a certain point there's a breaking point. >> reporter: the suggestion coming in an interview before mr. trump's appearance at a ufc fight saturday night, as he

tries to distance himself from his 2016 opponent, hillary clinton. >> they said lock her up, and i could have done it, but i felt it would have been a terrible thing. and then this happened to me. hillary clinton, i didn't say lock her up, but people said lock her up. >> reporter: in reality, though clinton was never convicted of any crime, mr. trump did say "lock her up" repeatedly. >> for what she's done, they should lock her up. >> reporter: since the conviction thursday, the rnc says the committee and campaign have raised $70 million online, a massive haul. >> there's no doubt that this verdict has actually been unifying our party. >> reporter: majority of americans are agreeing with the verdict, with the race remaining deadlocked as it's been for months. most top republicans falling in line behind the gop nominee. >> we have to fight back and we will with everything in our arsenal, but we do that within

the confines of the rule of law. >> reporter: president biden himself issues a warning about gop rhetoric. >> it's reckless, dangerous, irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict. >> i completely agree with the president. i will say words do matter, and i notice something different, what mike johnson said compared to donald trump. donald trump says we're at the breaking point, and mike johnson said we must fight back, but he said we must fight back within the confines of the rule of law. that's important, that's important. it's all right for us to say we have to fight politically at the ballot box, et cetera, et cetera. that's what politicians have always spoken, until we get to donald trump who talks about telling the proud boys to stand back and stand by or saying come

to washington on january 6th, it will be wild, or saying, lawrence o'donnell, that we are at a, quote, breaking point. coded language for a man who started the worst riot, political riot in american history in washington, d.c. since the civil war. i mean, this guy was the author of that riot and now it looks like he's trying to provoke again. >> and, joe, it's obviously aspirational on his part. when he says breaking point, he's hoping for the breaking point. >> right. >> but he saw the crowds that did not show up at the manhattan courthouse. you'll remember that he summoned them just before the indictment was announced last year, and they didn't come. they never showed up. so people think, oh, well, there's no trump voters in new york city.

there's 85,000 of them on the island of manhattan alone. 85,000 of them. when you add in brooklyn, queens, nearby new jersey, northern suburbs, there's a few million trump voters within an hour of that courthouse. they did not come. they are not motivated to go out there and protest for him over his conduct with stormy daniels and what he did to cover it up. and i don't believe that there is any serious threat of what donald trump would be hoping for, which is some kind of rerun of january 6th. you've got to remember how many of those people are in prison and the rest of them, their mothers are telling them, don't do that again. i just don't think that threat is really there. >> yeah, you know, the thing is, it's also interesting that you look at the polls, lawrence, that hallie had in her piece.

one of them is 57% to 27%. i saw it quickly. it was like a 25, 30 point spread on people who believe the conviction was the right result in the trial. and then you have republicans coming out and saying, the united states is like castro's cuba, the united states is like stalin's soviet union. i know a lot of people freak out, their hair gets on fire, they run around in circles. all i see is a former politician, i'm sure you see somebody that has been in this world forever. i just see a party moving further and further and further away from the very independents and swing voters they have to pick up in wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania. >> yeah, they absolutely are, joe. and when you look at that number, 57% think the verdict was correct. that's without those people being able to watch the trial on tv. if they could have watched it on tv, that number would have been significantly higher, because they would have seen that judge

merchan was the model of what they hope a judge would be if a member of their family was on trial in that courtroom. they would see the trump lawyers were winning all sorts of arguments with the judge all the time. the judge was sustaining their objections, the judge was agreeing with them in certain motions, arguments that they made. and no one got to see that. donald trump got to go out and tell his followers how bad the judge was every day, even when the judge was ruling in donald trump's favor. and so television would have really shown everyone just how fair this was, and there would be the hard core who would absolutely never agree that it was a fair trial. but 57% thinking that was a fair outcome without even being able to see it. >> right. >> the television would have been the most valuable asset in this particular trial. >> also with us this morning, the host of "morning edition"

and washington post opinion editor and writer, and jonathan lemire is still with us. >> this is an all-star cast. >> it is. >> they had night of the thousand stars. >> here we are. >> we've got them here in the morning. it's pretty incredible. steve, let me go to you. let's put these polls up again. they're only polls, they're only snapshots, i certainly understand that. at the same time when you have the abc poll, a 50/27%, cbs, 57 to 43 split. this could change, but these snapshots certainly show the republican party, 27% believe that that verdict makes us castro's cuba or stalin's soviet union, but i doubt those people are buying the republican line

right now. >> i suppose one of the questions is how much difference does it ultimately make in the election, in people's votes. i've looked at different surveys about that. i'm sure you have as well. and i also understand that -- tried to look a little into history to ask what happens when somebody who has been convicted of a felony, who has served prison time runs again, and sometimes in a democracy people vote for that guy. in the city where i am right now, washington, d.c., marion berry won a fourth term after going to prison. curley served one of his terms in prison. and i thought of chavez, elected in a democratic election in venezuela as the leader of that country after going to prison. the reason being, i think, that people vote on their own interests, not the morality of the person they're voting for. and some political leaders do manage to take their trial, take

their conviction and make it part of a narrative that attracts support. that's going to be one of the things we'll need to watch for in the months ahead. >> so alexi, let's live in more on the politics. we have seen the republicans already with only a few exceptions, really, rally around donald trump, adopt his talking points, this is a witch hunt, and suggested it was a travesty of justice ordered up by president biden. of course we know that's not true. democrats, though, seem a little more split into how they're going to handle this. some have been very aggressive, as far as more muted, suggesting they don't want to be seen as putting their thumb on the scale. president biden, we heard him speak about the need to respect the verdict, his campaign has been a little more aggressive. we'll see if they go more so. talk to us about the debate among democrats, how to try to capitalize on this. because some have told me, why should we talk about it, it's not breaking through? but the counter from other democrats is, well, isn't it our job to make it break through. >> it's a question that's been

plaguing democrats isn't hillary clinton lost in 2016, how much should they talk about donald trump and his daily controversies. this is obviously more than just a controversy and it's historic. so for those reasons, of course they should talk about it. but democrats know the perils of adding to the idea this was just a political hit job against donald trump already. i think that what is more effective with voters is not reminding them that he's a convicted felon, no matter what polls say, or that he was charged on all 34 counts. but using this moment, this conviction to remind voters of his character, of the underlying facts about who he is that are represented in this case. he lies, he cheats, he steals, he manipulates, he cheats on his wife and has affairs. he will do whatever he needs to do to gaslight you to make sure his version of reality is accepted. that did not fly in a court of law and that is what democrats should remind folks of. >> lawrence, i've been looking

at trump's crowds and often see him talking and the people behind him kind of looking disinterested, kind of like mika right now, disinterested, baffled, wondering where he's going, just like mika always wonders, where exactly is joe going? >> i know where you're going here. >> i always say it's kind of like elvis, like fat elvis in '77, where he's playing the old hits where we played some clips from 2016, because donald trump's faulty memory, he doesn't even remember world war ii, but he says, i never said "lock her up" and we looked and those audiences were so much more engaged. he was the new thing, he didn't have a record to run on. i'm just curious where you are as you look at donald trump eight years later after the 2016

race. what kind of command does he still hold over america, and is it to a shrinking base, or do you think we're looking at the next president when we see him walking to ufc events to a roaring ovation? >> i've thought all along joe biden is going to be re-elected, i still think that. that's a longer discussion. >> yeah, same here. >> here is an important thing about trump voters that gets overlooked all the time. more than 99% of trump voters have never been to a trump rally and nothing could make them go. nothing could make them go. and, by the way, the people at trump rallies, as has been reported by people who cover them, are repeat customers, they attend the trump rally in florida, that same person would be at the trump rally in south

carolina the next week. so it's a very, very small section of trump voters who actually will animate themselves to the point of going to a rally, which, again, tells you something about how few would be willing to actually go out there and be violent at such an event if donald trump suffers more legal consequences going forward. and so it's really important to understand that the trump vote is based on things like i hate taxes, i think abortion is murder, i hate what's going on at the southern border, i think he's the only guy who can do something about it. it's about things other than donald trump, in addition to what is obviously a cultish thing that is expressed by the people who go to the rallies, and then, joe, what you would see as political cult behavior in washington, where i think you and i know that all of those people, marco rubio, all of them, know what a complete fraud

donald trump is. and all those republicans are trying to do is survive the trump era without donald trump turning on them. and if they can survive the trump era and donald trump is gone, then they can return to whatever they might be left of what they actually think about what government should do. >> yeah, i think that the dwindling numbers of trump supporters, double rally goers or whatever is true. i think, lawrence, the concern i have is that you are underestimating the power of not only the republicans in congress and in the senate, but also on fox news who are all working for donald trump to keep their jobs. and that cult-like behavior influences a lot of viewers. steve, we'll end with you on this. i just want to get your thoughts on the power of trump's cult

over its people, especially those who are in positions of power or positions of influence in the media. >> there is an enormous media complex, of course, on that side of the equation, and there are a lot of republican officials who are seeing it in their interest now to support the former president. i do want to note when i look at the polling and when i look at past elections, it's plausible to think that former president trump is near his ceiling, that he cannot attract many more votes than he can. right now he's ahead, there's a lot of people parked on rfk, a few people parked on undecided. what is also happening, though, perhaps is that there's some potential or past biden voters who are dormant, who don't know why they would vote for him again. and when i talk to democrats, that's one thing that they emphasize. the current president hasn't given enough reason for people to step up and vote for him yet. and that's one of the vital things he needs to do, and fast, because early voting begins pretty soon.

>> all right. as always, thank you so much for being with us. his latest book is titled "differ we must: how lincoln succeeded in a divided america" and, lawrence, we'll give you the last word. fascinating what steve just said about that ceiling. because all the polls show trump does have a ceiling. it seems to me biden, he doesn't have to -- he doesn't have to be in the conversion business. biden has just got to bring them home. how does he do that? >> he just has to get what he got before, and, joe, donald trump is the only person ever elected president or to any office, who after the election made no attempt to ever speak to a voter who didn't already vote for him. everyone else tried to convert voters, or at least reassure voters who didn't vote for him. and donald trump is the only one who said, i don't need anybody

else. the voters who got me, the electoral college in 2016, i'm never going to need anyone else. >> lawrence, we'll be watching "the last word" week nights at 10:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. thank you for getting up early for us today. coming up, democrats have billed themselves as the party of the future. but now some in the party are concerned about tech leaders defecting to other candidates this year. democratic congressman ro khanna joins us next to explain what he's doing about that. he's straight ahead on "morning joe." but the picture started changing when i started on vyvgart. ♪♪ vyvgart is for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are anti-achr antibody positive. ♪♪ in a clinical trial, vyvgart significantly improved most participants' ability to do daily activities when added to their current gmg treatment. most participants taking vyvgart also had less muscle weakness.

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nvidia has never done better. investors are bullish. but last year more than 600 top ai scientists signed this statement urging caution, warning of ai's risk to humanity. >> when i talk to you and i hear you speak, part of me goes, gee

whiz, and the other part of me goes, oh, my god, what are we in for? >> yeah. >> which one is it? >> it's both, it's both. yeah, you're feeling all the right feelings. i feel both. >> you feel both? >> sure, sure. >> the co-founder, president and ceo of the world's most valuable chip maker, nvidia, expressing both excitement and concern about the rise of ai. yesterday in taiwan he announced his company's plans to upgrade its ai computing power every year, and joining us now, democratic congressman ro khanna of california, whose district represents parts of silicon valley. he's also a member of the house oversight committee, and this weekend hosted a two-day gathering of tech leaders, many of whom have been skeptical recently about the democratic party and want to know what president biden's plans for ai are. >> congressman, it's not just

ai. i mean, we've all noted this rightward tilt, this rightward shift of a lot of tech leaders in silicon valley, and those writing about it talk about this sort of libertarian bro culture among some silicon valley elites. talk about that and how we move from the silicon valley that seemed to be left of center to one that is moving right of center. >> you're absolutely right that some of the loudest voices have been right of center. i would say the democrats had 90% of silicon valley, now we probably have 60% to 70%. this conference, which i convened, we had speaker pelosi, and we made two central points. one, president biden with the chips and science act has had the largest investment in science and technology since the kennedy years, and we're

bringing manufacturing for semifinals and advancing manufacturing back. we've had the largest investment in clean tech, which a lot of silicon valley founders and venture capitalists have funded. the challenge you speak to, there's a concern, candidly, that the administration has been too negative on block chain. speaker pelosi and i supported patrick mchenry's recent bill to provide regulatory clarity. i think it would be helpful if the white house gets behind that. second, there has been a sense which i think has gone too far that, while there's too much political correctness in the democratic party, they want to speak out. in my view, some of the reason we have political correctness is we respect each other. but there is this kind of brash sense that we can say anything, break anything, and you're not going to win some of those votes back. >> on a related note, we are in an election year. what is your level of concern about on some of these high-tech

platforms, these social media platforms, twitter, x, tiktok, others, where we've seen a rampant rise of disinformation and misinformation with very little on the way of content controls, no fact-checking to speak of? what is your level of concern about not just they wouldn't be the facts, but this could be a really dangerous combination as we barrel toward november? >> i'm very concerned. i think that's the biggest immediate risk of ai, that you can create these bots, you can create misinformation at huge scale, with huge speed, and that there's no reasonable content moderation. look, i came on the show a couple years back, and i remember joe's passionate rant that social media is killing many people in this country, because of misinformation to our youth, leading to suicide thoughts, leading to eating disorders. look, congress still hasn't done anything. that is a dereliction of duty. we need to pass resolution.

>> congressman, donald trump and his campaign joined tiktok over the weekend, obviously biden's campaign is on there, too. i was surprised to learn from the company in reporting that there's, like, two-two-one trump to biden supporters on that platform. do you think the biden campaign should be on there? >> yes. look, it's a problem, when i have as many followers on tiktok as president biden. we've got to do more content on these platforms, we've got to be more creative, we've got to get more passionate and get young people on there. we're getting outmaneuvered on tiktok and on facebook, and it is a problem. but some of us are working to try to get more energy on those platforms. there are a lot of young people on them. >> democratic congressman ro khanna of california, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you. coming up on "morning joe," jury selection in the federal gun case against hunter biden is

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36 past the hour. hunter biden's felony gun trial is set to begin in a delaware courtroom, with the jury selection process, and many members of the biden family are by his side, including dr. jill biden, who raised him, ashley biden, one of his closest friends, jack owen, president biden's brother-in-law, and others. it is dr. jill biden's birthday, and according to the "washington post" hunter said, happy birthday, i have a special event, and the two laughed. let's go to nbc news justice

correspondent ken dilanian outside the courthouse. what's going on inside the courtroom right now? this certainly is a big show of family support. >> reporter: it really is, mika. right now jury selection is under way, 250 jurors have been called. they're going to bring in 50 at a time to ask them a series of questions. a tough day for the biden family. we saw jill biden walk into this courthouse, and now we have a new statement from the president himself, and i'm just going to read it to you, because it's pretty important. he says, i'm the president, but i'm also a dad. jill and i love our son and we're so proud of the man he is today. hunter's resilience in the face of adversity and the strength he has brought to his recovery are inspiring to us. it goes on, a lot of families have loved ones who have overcome addiction and know what we mean. he says, as the president, i don't and won't comment on pending federal cases, but as a dad i have boundless love for my son, confidence in him and respect for his strength. our family has been through a

lot together, and jill and i are going to continue to be there for hunter and our family with our love and support. that was a pretty carefully worded statement, guys, and it doesn't repeat what president biden has said in the past when he said his son did nothing wrong. he's careful not to comment on his guilt or innocence in this case because it's a sensitive time where the former president has been convicted of felonies and his supporters are questioning the fairness of the justice system. and hunter biden's attorneys are making some of the same arguments in this case where they're arguing that this was a malicious and vindictive prosecution. this is a gun case with a colt revolver that hunter biden owned for 11 days before his then-girlfriend threw it in a dumpster. he was using and addicted to drugs at the time and the government says he lied on a federal form and then possessed the gun. this is a charge rarely brought in this context, and there was going to be a plea deal last

year that called for a deferred adjudication on this charge and hunter biden was going to plead guilty to misdemeanor charges. that fell apart. he's facing felony charges and time in prison, guys. >> give us a sense as to the timeline of this trial. what should we expect in terms of witnesses produced, what sort of evidence will be discussed, and frankly, how long it may all last? >> reporter: jonathan, this is expected to be a one to two-week trial, probably in the middle of that range. jury selection is expected to take one to two days. it's a fairly simple case. he filled out the form and there's going to be testimony about his drug use, including some pretty painful testimony for the biden family from hunter biden's ex-wife and from haley biden, beau biden's widow, who was romantically involved with hunter biden after her husband died, and can testify about his drug use.

she was actually the one who took the gun away from him and put it in a dumpster. it was then found by a homeless man and that's how the police got involved. it's worth noting, there were no charges filed at the time, this was 2018. but this conduct and this case arose again when the justice department was investigating hunter biden's business dealings, and that's what brought us here today. >> nbc's ken dilanian, thank you very much for your coverage this morning. we'll be seeing you again soon, i'm sure. still ahead on "morning joe," the writer behind the tony-nominated play about a day in the life of a group of hair braiders in a harlem salon, our guest next on "morning joe." well done, viv. you got the presents, the balloons and the raptor cake. now, how about something to put a smile on your face? aspen dental provides complete, affordable care with dentists and labs in one place plus free exams and x-rays for new patients without insurance...

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four-story brownstone, yeah? >> mom, please. >> okay, you don't have to be a doctor. i'll take engineer. >> you have to let her be what she wants, jaja. >> i'm just playing with her. she can be whatever she wants. this is america, after all. just smile, for once. everything is working out for us. >> working out for you, maybe. >> that's how i know she's american. >> all right, that was a look at the play entitled jaja's african hair braiding and nominated for five tony awards, including best play. it depicts a day in the life of hair braiders in harlem, as they experience joys and an occasional rude customer while working as immigrants in a country where they do not always

feel welcome. joining us now, the tony-nominated playwright. jocelyn bioh. it is a joy to have you on the show this morning. tell us about jaja's. it seems the hair salon is sort of a meeting of all of black society's challenges, including hair. >> yes, i think it's a rich universality in hair braiding or barber shops, all of those places where people come and get some sort of service. so i really wanted to highlight the women in the harlem community who are really a rich tapestry of harlem. they're entrepreneurs and immigrant women who come from various countries all over the continent of africa and try to come here to america to create a better life. and there's something really universal in all of our experiences, and i think that's what audiences saw when they

came to see the show. >> jocelyn, i'm so happy to meet you and congratulations on your nominations. you're obviously a proven playwright, but i wonder if you could take us behind the scenes. and i don't know what it takes to pitch and produce a broadway play. did you have to convince folks that this was a worthy topic of putting on a stage and exploring? were they like, what are you talking about? what was that like behind the scenes pitching it? >> i have to say, and that's a credit to manhattan theatre club, the theatre that produced it, we had wonderful producers who came onboard, and we have an actress named taraji p. henson. i think when everyone read the play, when we had a reading, realized that this story was really urgent, it was vibrant, and it was full of all of the things that broadway plays should have.

and so i'm happy to say it did not take much convincing in this case. i did a reading of it, and literally 15 minutes after, i was told, we would love to do it on broadway. i was very lucky. >> that's awesome. >> i think it speaks to the power of what this play brings, yeah. >> yeah, unbelievable. let's take a look at another clip where the hair braiders discuss the education of the main character, marie. >> look at those people whose house your mother was cleaning. if they were not on the board of your school, how else would you have been able to go there? >> come on. >> what? everyone knows that's how marie got into that fancy school. >> she took tests and got higher scores at the school. >> it's fine. >> all i'm saying is that jaja puts too much faith in these white people. okay, they helped marie that time, fine. but when jaja went to them

asking if they would help with her papers, all of a sudden, it was, oh, we don't know, we don't feel comfortable. now look, she's still stuck. >> so jocelyn, tell us about that wonderful cast and how the show is resonating with audiences. >> i mean, the cast was incredible. it was a cast of ten actors, nine women, one man, who are playing 17 different characters, the braiders who work in the shop and then the various customers who came in. and i think the audiences from day one were so with them. i think they really connected to who they were as people, they saw facets of themselves in a lot of the characters, whether it was their mothers or aunts, their sisters, or even just neie who are selling mangos on the street or lotion our t-shirts, there's a rich, vibrant tapestry to what harlem is. i think that resonated with a

lot of people. it was a thrill to do and even more thrilling that we're here now with all these tony nominations. it shows how long the play lasted in people's minds. >> i was struck, talking about lasting a long time in people's minds, i was struck in that last scene hearing faint echoes of a certain broadway musical from 60, 65 years ago, "west side story" when immigrants there were talking about the plight of getting to america and, of course, the women in that case being more positive. the men saying, ah -- sounding again more like a scene right there, ah, please. don't have quite so much faith in this country and how immigrants will be treated. yeah, 60 years later, there are faint echoes of "west side story" there, right?

>> 100%. i think that's my thing, people came into the play thinking perhaps it was just going to be about hair and braids and polite conversation. really at the center of us, the fulcrum of it is an immigrant story. both my parents are immigrants from ghana and west africa, and they have their own unique journey of how they became unique citizens and certainly chased after the american dream. i think at the time i wrote it, which was in 2019, we were having a very different conversation about immigration and it kind of only had one face. i really wanted to add to how this thing that was becoming a policy issue actually had humans at the center of it. that was so, so important to me to be able to do that. i think being able to reflect on daca -- in that clip, that's what this young girl is hoping to attain but couldn't because it was so expensive. there's so much to the immigrant journey and trying to get the

american dream, and i think it was important to be able to reflect that and a play that people thought was just about hair. >> we're glad you did it. the play, "jaja's african hair braiding" is up for five tony awards. you can see it on tour starting this fall in washington, d.c. tony-nominated playwright and co-founder of black women on broadway, jocelyn bioh, thanks so much for being on this morning. good look at the tonys. >> thank you, thank you. i'll take it. >> take care. congratulations for sure. still ahead, new hampshire's republican governor chris sununu tries to explain his inexplicable support for donald trump now that the former president has been convicted. we'll play for you those comments. also ahead, history made in mexico. the country has elected its first female president. we'll tell you what you need to know about the new leader this morning. we'll be right back.

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so donald trump is now a convicted felon. are you comfortable voting for him in november? >> oh, sure, as -- according to the polls, most of america is. >> but do you find it troubling at all? >> look, i don't want my nominee to be convicted of anything, of course. i worked as hard as anybody other than maybe naoki haley to make sure he wasn't the nominee. we had a lot better choices, but he is going to be the republican nominee of the party. >> nikki haley who you endorsed, worked very, very hard for, during the time when she was still in, you guys were still a team. she said this about what americans would do following a conviction. watch. >> there is no way that the american people are going to vote for a convicted criminal. they're not. >> do you think she's wrong?

>> yeah, apparently. apparently we were both wrong on that one. >> republican governor chris sununu of new hampshire walking back comments he made regarding former president trump's election prospects should he be convicted of a crime. we're just going to let his massive flip-flopping speak for itself. so we saw an historic election play out in mexico where voters have chosen the country's first female president. nbc news correspondent guad venegas has the details from mexico city. >> reporter: this morning mexico elected the first woman president and first jewish president in its 200-year history. claudia sheinbaum, a close ally of mexico's current president andres manuel lopez obrador, the election happening across the

u.s. with 20 mexican consulates allowing voters to cast ballots. >> as a young adult, it's exciting to come vote for my own country. >> reporter: in mexico, some waiting hours at polling locations. >> it's a necessary change and it's a good sign of progress. >> reporter: sheinbaum shared a nobel peace prize for her work on climate change. it's the growing power and violence of criminal organizations that are expected to be her greatest challenge. hundreds have been killed at campaign events including dozens of candidates. mexico's drug cartels and gangs are thought to be behind the attacks. >> 20 years ago mexican drug cartels were just shipping drugs to the u.s., now they are doing business locally and extorting people and governments. so they need to have a political base, and elections are the opportunity to increase the control. >> reporter: criminal organizations are also profiting from the smuggling of migrants to the u.s. with thousands arriving daily through mexico's

southern border. the immigration crisis a major issue for u.s. voters this november. sheinbaum will become america's crucial partner to avoid another surge at the border. >> nbc's guad venegas with that report. that does it for us this morning. we'll be back tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports," breaking news at a courthouse in delaware, hunter biden's trial beginning with jury selection. the witnesses we expect to see and how his father, the president is approaching the proceedings. the countdown to donald trump's sentencing. his new warning about what could happen if he gets jail time. also ahead, history made in mexico, electing its first female and first jewish president. what does it mean for diplomacy with the u.s.? later, the new uncertainty in fragile cease-fire