political landscape, and things people organized and provided space for others to have really changed in terms of organize with them, that's how you do politics. that's how you change lives. and it's amazing all those politics. then, they have also helped a people who spent a career in lot of people, millions of politics can't figure out how to do that. people, to come out of poverty, >> every person i named knows and that's mainly the reason why how to reach me if they need to she was elected. a lot of people see this as a be organized. referendum to president i've done that before. mckay coppins, it's another obrador's government, and people have voted for continuity. incredible sort of installment they have to keep -- they want to see this government continue in this moment. it's an incredible piece of to help people come out of reporting. what are you turning to next? poverty. >> first woman elected to >> i feel like i can't reveal mexico. julio vaqueiro, thank you so it. this anxiety about democracy much for joining us. that's going to do it for me both here and abroad is going to be a theme of this year's today. reporting for me and a lot of "deadline white house" with nicole wallace starts right now. other journalists, i think. ♪♪ >> well, i appreciate you stitching it together. we voraciously consume everything you write in "the atlantic" and your book. so thank you so much for being here to talk about it. hi, everyone, happy monday. i hope this is to be continued. it's 4:00 in new york, backed ian bhasin, i quote you for days into a corner, now carrying the between your appearances. permanent stain of a criminal so please come back so i'm not conviction, donald trump is telling the ladder, the canoe proving that a tiger really and the motor boat story for too

many days on the air before you never changes its stripes, responding to his guilty verdict freshen up our vivid examples of where we are as a country. in the election interference hush money trial like any mob thank you very much for being here today. when we come back, president joe boss would or wannabe auto biden running for re-election against a convicted felon. this is who we are. autocrat, with more threats and democrats want the president to intimidation. the same person that sent a make donald trump's guilty violent mob to the u.s. capitol that nearly killed his own vice president, said this about the conviction a real issue in the upcoming election. very real possibility that he could be sentenced to house arrest or even prison. the biden-harris campaign >> i don't know that the public would stand it, you know? co-chair cedric richmond will tell us how they feel about i'm not sure the public would that. after a short break. stand for it. don't go anywhere. that after a short break. don't go anywhere. with a -- >> house arrest or -- >> i think it would be tough fbt public to take. at a certain point, there's a breaking point. >> now, to avoid prison or harsh sentence, donald trump might have taken the other path, right? he could be showing remorse for his crimes, at least publicly. he could back off the frequent near-daily attacks on the judge overseeing his case, as well as the judge's daughter. he could stop testing the limits of the gag order imposed on him.

but of course, this is donald trump we're talking about. one former prosecutor tells "the washington post" this. "he's almost daring the judge to do it. what are you going to do about it?" instead, though, trump and his allies are challenging the most basic principles, not just of our democracy, but any democracy. the rule of law, the near-daily attacks about a weaponized justice system are happening while the biden justice department puts the president's own son on trial starting today. he's on trial on gun charges that are rarely brought and whose constitutionality has been questioned in news reports in "the new york times" and other places. the bulwark puts it this way. "in all likelihood, trump got more process than he was due. nobody in the history of the american criminal justice system has access to his election donor-funded trial defense team, his supplicant band of congressional republicans attacking the rule of law, and the criminal justice system on his behalf. his truth social megaphone of

lies and his compliant supreme court majority who effectively excised section 3 of the 14th amendment from the constitution on his behalf and punted the january 6th criminal trial until after the election in order to craft criminal immunity for him." one of his biggest allies from the so-called red tie brigade -- the red die brigade was there almost every day of his trial -- and someone who appeared in court with the defendant is the current speaker of the house, mike johnson. well, johnson is now asking for the supreme court, already handing trump a gift in the january 6th case, to do him a solid in this one. listen to that. >> i do believe the supreme court should step in. obviously, this is totally unprecedented, and it's dangerous to our system. this will be overturned, guys, there's no question about it. it's just going to take some time to do it. >> really? there are signs that the stark vision from earth 2 is butting up against plain old common

sense from those of us over here on earth 1. not everyone is buying team trump's desperate attempt to spin the first ever criminal conviction of an ex-president and presumptive presidential nominee. here's a dose of much-needed reality from the rather surprising corner of the culture media universe. sports talk host and self-described political moderate, colin cowherd. >> donald trump is now a felon. his campaign chairman was a felon. so was his deputy campaign manager, his personal lawyer, his chief strategist, his national security advisor, his trade advisor, his foreign policy advisor, his campaign fixer and his company ceo. they're all felons. judged by the company you keep. it's a cabal of convicts. if everybody in your social circle is a felon, i don't think it's rigged. i don't think the world's against you. and to get people to agree on anything, 34 counts, 0 for 34, i -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you. jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. jublia is recognized by the apma. most commercially insured patients may pay as little as $0 copay. go to jubliarx.com now to get started. ♪ ♪ may pay as little as $0 copay. have you always had trouble losing weight and keeping it off? same. discover the power of wegovy®. ♪ ♪ with wegovy®, i lost 35 pounds. and some lost over 46 pounds. ♪ ♪ mean, that's a -- that's a and i'm keeping the weight off. wegovy® helps you lose weight and keep it off. i'm reducing my risk. wegovy® is the only fda-approved weight-management medicine that's proven to reduce risk of major cardiovascular events in adults with known heart disease and with either obesity or overweight. wegovy® shouldn't be used with semaglutide or glp-1 medicines. don't take wegovy® if you or your family had medullary thyroid cancer, multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop wegovy® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may happen, including pancreatitis and gallbladder problems. wegovy® may cause low blood sugar in people with diabetes, especially if you take medicines to treat diabetes. tell your provider about vision problems or changes, or if you feel your heart racing while at rest. depression or thoughts of suicide may occur. call your provider right away if you have any mental changes. common side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may cause kidney problems. with wegovy®, i'm losing weight, i'm keeping it off. and i'm lowering my cv risk. our daughter just bought her first house. all by herself. so we went to go see it. she knew exactly how she wanted everything. but then he pointed out the gutters. you think you've raised them right and then— she didn't know. you have to call leaffilter. leaffilter's patented filter technology keeps debris out of your gutters for good. parenthood is such a wild ride. it's a lot easier with leaffilter. join millions of satisfied homeowners. call 833 leaffilter today or visit leaffilter.com i think the president should be leaning into this going

batting slump even the new york forward. mets could be impressed with. the -- his competitor is a 0 for 34. convicted felon. >> in politics, we call that and you can only imagine if the breaking through. it's where we start today with situation was reversed they some of our favorite experts and friends. would be going after joe biden with us at the table, former top with a vengeance. they're making those false official at the department of justice, msnbc legal analyst, claims about joe biden andrew weissmann is back. plus, former u.s. senator, co-host of "how to win 2024" regardless. >> congressman adam schiff calling on president joe biden to drop the hammer on donald podcast, claire mccaskill is at trump and his criminal the table. conviction. also at the table, former lead he's not alone. according to some brand new investigator for the january 6th reporting in the "new york times" today, many democrats select committee, tim is here. think president biden should make trump's criminal conviction that bulwark poll, this one that is the gut punch, always, is the central to the 2024 campaign conversation. the "times" says today their supreme court entertaining immunity so what just happened interviews with democrats, in new york doesn't happen in quote, reveal a party hungry to washington to hold trump or tell voters that trump's adjudicate trump's conduct around january 6th. conviction makes him unfit and >> we're waiting with bated breath, nicole, for the supreme worried that mr. biden might not use the bully pulpit of the court to rule. whether they reject outright the presidency to press that argument. joining us now biden campaign immunity claim or issue some co-chair cedric richmond. sort of partial verdict will thank you so much for being have a dispositive effect on the here. >> thanks for having me. >> so you know, i went back and january 6th case. i always thought that was the

watched the video, the "soul of most serious case in terms of a nation" video that sort of is relative culpability of conduct, subverting democracy, that is one bookend of president joe the headliner here, and it's biden's first run for the getting increasingly unlikely as presidency. and this seems central to the time passes with no opinion from argument that he was making. the supreme court that that case could be adjudicated by the will it be central to the election. >> it's interesting, though, to general election campaign this see mike johnson sort of ride fall? >> well, one, i think that it's the wave of, yeah, they did us a about vision and values. the president wakes up every day solid on this, let's do a solid on that. it's not even the quiet part out fighting for american citizens and putting work in families loud. it's the loud part at the top of first. president trump is only his lungs. >> the supreme court's not concerned about himself. and look, we know exactly who supposed to do anybody a solid. give them the benefit of the doubt. donald drup is and we're going they saw this as an issue of to remind people who he is. significance of constitutional he was a person sued by doj in magnitude that needed to be decided by the supreme court, but the fact that it took them a 1973 because he wouldn't rent while to make that decision -- his apartments to black people. >> did it? he was impeached twice. did it need to be decided by the supreme court? the second time he was leading >> they could have said, we an insurrection against the country. agree with the appellate court, which would have been speaking, and now he's convicted on 34 which would have been deciding that issue of constitutional magnitude without an argument, counts. so we know exactly who he is. without a supreme court opinion. we're going to remind people it would essentially allowed the exactly who he is. but at the same time we're going

d.c. circuit opinion to go into effect. to talk about what's important given the benefit of the doubt, to voters also. that they believe that some sort that's them, that's their families and that's their of written opinion was appropriate here, but the fact that it's taken a long time to communities. >> cedric, i think some of what i pick up from democrats is schedule for argument, to brief it, then schedule for argument and now weeks after the argument to be decided, increasingly anxiety that the campaign won't looks like it is going to delay deliver a smackdown of donald the ultimate adjudication of those cases, and that does, in trump. the porn star-paying, convicted effect, do the defendant a felon, lying, my ndas are better solid. >> when you've got a member who than your ndas, now criminal who flew to flagstone at the insurrection above their house, launched an insurrection. do they deserve the benefit of the doubt? his own vice president hasn't >> no, there's a clear supported him. i think there's some anxiety appearance issue. i won't go as far as to say that the campaign won't have enough teeth when it comes to judge alito is a supporter of insurrection or aided and the indictment of donald trump abetted insurrection. it just doesn't matter. on character, on policy, on that's not the standard. the standard is, is there an corruption and now on being a appearance issue? and if a supreme court justice criminal. can you reassure them that it is flying symbols that were will? >> well, all i will say to that waved in anger at the capitol is that we're going to run a above his residences, it campaign, we're going to run a campaign designed to win and absolutely creates an appearance. we're going to remind people who so, for confidence in the court, which is an important value that donald trump is. and all of those things you said the court and the justice system

themselves have to promote, describe donald trump. but we're going to continue to stepping away would obviously be focus on families. the most appropriate thing to do. >> what's interesting to me, and and look, if i had a dollar for the reason i pressed him on every time people questioned or that, is that, in smearing the doubted joe biden in a campaign, i'd be a wealthy man. but again, we're going to put rule of law, they have our heads down, we're going to diminished the people that they perceive to be on their side as do the work, and we're going to do the contrast. well. right? you know, president biden wants the public -- i mean, gallup to take us forward. asks everybody, and the other trump wants to take us back. group that's been asking -- i president biden has character and commitment and love for this can't think of the pollster -- country. donald trump only loves himself. but both institutions have support for the supreme court at and so we will do that. 40 or below of the public, but it will be a full-fledged people that think they're doing campaign on issues also. a bad job is over 60%. and the near daily assault on >> i worked during campaigns, the rule of law is harming even and i vividly remember the some of the people they perceive in their heads to be their articles, let sarah palin be allies. >> yeah. sarah palin, let george bush be i'm not sure that they are george bush. you know, attacking people like hurting them as much as the you. i had a job in the press office. supreme court has hurt itself. >> right. so i hear you. >> the ethical transition -- they own all the ethics i think what sort of the biden problems. that was not foisted upon them. coalition, the people who do not but you're right that the folks view a vote for president joe biden as the lesser of two evils who are following trump down but who are enthusiastic to vote this dead-end alley that our for the one person in the race

who would protect a woman's right, the one person in the justice system is fatally flawed race who isn't a convicted don't realize what's at the end of that alley. felon, the one person in the and that is that everyone's race who would not dismantle rights are impacted. nato, the one person in the race >> right. >> and the thing -- when they who actually got infrastructure done and it didn't turn into a all came out and said, well, now, the red state d.a.s need to go after democrats, it's like punchline, they're disheartened that the polls are close. they don't understand how this what do you say to them? process works. >> we're not putting a lot of why haven't a bunch of democrats stake in the polls. been charged since trump was i mean, the last poll i saw showed that over 50% of the convicted? why didn't they gin up a bunch people in the country didn't of charges? think biden or trump would be because people who do these jobs the nominee. know you have to have evidence. but you're going to see them and evidence is not a democrat stand on the stage on june 27 in atlanta and they're going to go head to head. or a republican. and president biden is going to evidence is evidence. and no one is going to bring a debate trump for who he is and he's going to talk about all of charge with no evidence. first of all, they could lose their law license. his accomplishments. he'll talk about his vision. and you will see the same joe secondly, they've got a judge biden that you saw in the state they've got to answer to. of the union and that is a third, there's juries that are president up for the fight. he knows what's at stake. selected with the input of the it's our democracy. defense, so the whole system is set up to protect people's it's our future. and so you're going to see that out of him. individual rights through a system of checks and balances within our justice system. once again. so i understand the angst. and part of that is the state system and the federal system,

which you see in play in these but the polling, i think there's 34 polls where we're either now cases where you have the state up or gaining, and we're going system where trump can't be pardoned if he's re-elected. to continue to race. so, it's worked so well, and it the race is not tomorrow. the rhys is in november. and we're going to do the hard has been the envy of the world, work of organizing, communicating and getting our and i'm going to hold out hope message out to voters. with these two guys, because we >> are you calling the never both -- we all three believe in trump republicans, the people who might create what sarah it very much. we've all three been a part of longwell calls a permission structure for all the nikki it. they're not going to destroy it. they are putting it in jeopardy hailey voters, nikki haley in a way that i think every before she said she would support donald trump was still american should be frightened about. >> well, and what's trump pulling in 18 to 30% of the talking about in the public republican vote in closed is -- i think lindsey graham republican primaries. who's in charge of reaching out to the never trump republicans said -- lindsey graham said he who might help bring those folks wants his fox sound byte back. into the biden coalition? >> if you do this, the public >> well, i won't give you all of our strategy, but i'll tell you, won't stand for it. first of all, this is, like, we the day that nikki hailey got managed to, actually, hold that out of the race i was on tv making an appeal to haley voters trial. there was -- there were days that we were down there, and that there's room over here. there was, like, one, you know, and that there's reason to vote for joe biden. and all of the things you kind of somewhat -- let's just mentioned before in terms of our say not total -- let's just say standing in the world,

a sort of representative new democracy, freedoms, our yorker who you might see on the reproductive rights, voting subway was there. rights, all of those things are there was one guy when i was on the ballot. the affordable health -- i mean, there, the huge space for affordable care act. protesters, of which there was all of those things. one person with a cross and a and so we're going to continue to make our case to persuade cowbell. those persuadable voters, go >> that's very new york. >> yeah. and i was thinking, oh, kind of after independents and shore up like taking the subway. our coalition that elected joe and so, you know, we managed to biden the first time and that is get through all of that without making sure that minority voters huge protests. know exactly what they got out you know, the justice system of the three or four years of prevailed. joe biden and kamala harris in i have to say, i want to go back to just your opening, because terms of real meaningful impact the -- the contrast of somebody and change. >> i saw you on tv making that who is basically saying -- not case. i guess my question was about basically -- who is saying, i don't believe in the rule of law, i don't believe in a system whether there's any behind-the-scenes outrage. where facts matter, where we act >> of course there is. out of principle, and what is >> very reassuring. biden campaign co-chair cedric before us is a president who is richmond, who has incoming from right, left and in between and living the rule of law. everywhere you can think of. he is living it in the most -- thank you for fielding my questions. thank you for taking some time out of your day to talk to us. in the most personal way. we appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. he is not telling doj to stand >> when we come back, this is the month we expect the united down, which, you know, is his states supreme court to issue

power to do. its ruling on whether the it is a norm, the reason he's disgraced ex-president, now not doing it. convicted of felonies, should be he could tell the department of justice, this is what you need immune from future criminal to do. he is not pardoning his son, prosecution. the calls for justice samuel alito to recuse himself from which he could do. trump-related cases growing these are federal charges. louder. we'll bring you that story next. he is not doing that. that is a power -- he has the power for both of those. he is not doing it because he is living what it means to have a rule of law in this country, and it is -- i mean, if you want to know if he believes it, you can actually see what is happening with his own son. i mean, i'm not saying that he should get credit for it. >> that's the norm, but trump is beneath it, yeah. >> exactly. it's that you -- the idea that you can't see it or is that really what's going on? isn't he telling the department of justice to go -- to get a state prosecutor to bring a state case when you can see the -- what he is actually living by is his own son is being prosecuted, and he is

allowing the norms that are required to live in a democracy to go forward. >> you know, we're going to talk about this more later in the show, but because dr. jill biden, the first lady, was there today, but when he sat here, you know, you can see his pain over the assault on the institutions, and that day, i believe, it was the supreme court in the news. but how do you bring to life, in an electorally relevant way -- i mean, i played colin cowherd because i think there's way too much hand-wringing, nothing's going to matter. sure, to someone, nothing's going to matter. to the people that trump thinks he's in dialogue with all day, the people trump describes as sticking with him even when he shoots someone on fifth avenue, as a quote, but trump would be the first to tell you, because it was an exhibit in his first ever criminal trial, that he can't win without other swaths of voters. i think in '16, he was talking about suburban women. so, it's not, does it matter? that's the wrong question to ask here five months ahead of the election. it's, to whom does it matter,

and does it break through? and i enter into evidence colin cowherd as it matters to some people who consider themselves pretty normal and not total political nerds drinking out of the fire hose of daily cable news. >> yeah. cowherd is huge. >> huge. >> i mean, people don't realize how big that is. and there will be others, i think, between now and november that can break through. it, frankly, is probably not going to be the folks that are firmly on earth one and firmly on earth two. it's the folks that are not watching fox or us, probably watching "america's got talent" or "dancing with the stars" or espn or hgtv and those people are not dialed in to the extent that we would all want them to be dialed in. but as it gets closer, there's going to be some realities that are stark, and there will be other people outside, and that's

why i've been banging on the military -- the retired military leaders, and the trump cabinet members and the people who had been closest to him. what was powerful about cowherd's statement is when he listed all the people, and then you list all the people that worked with him that won't endorse him. >> right. >> i mean, that is what needs to break through to that disengaged voter that's in pennsylvania, wisconsin, and michigan. he wins those three states, joe biden is president. >> i mean, it all sort of has an echo to the way you presented the january 6th insurrection to the country. >> yeah. to senator mccaskill's point, we looked at -- >> claire. >> claire. we're friends now. >> yes, absolutely. makes me feel younger anyway. >> to claire's point, to my good friend claire's point -- (vo) dan made progress with his mental health... ...but his medication caused unintentional movements in his face, hands, and feet called tardive dyskinesia, or td. so his doctor prescribed austedo xr— a once-daily td treatment for adults. ♪as you go with austedo♪ austedo xr significantly reduced dan's td movements. some people saw a response as early as 2 weeks. with austedo xr, dan can stay on his mental health meds- (dan) cool hair! (vo) austedo xr can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, or have suicidal thoughts. don't take if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. austedo xr may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, or abnormal movements. seek help for fever, stiff muscles, problems thinking, or sweating. common side effects include inflammation of the nose and throat, insomnia and sleepiness. ♪as you go with austedo♪ ask your doctor for austedo xr. ♪austedo xr♪ ( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. -remember when i said we need to screen for colon cancer? -was that after i texted the age to screen was now 45? [both] because i said cologuard®! -hey there! -where did he come from? -yup, with me you can screen at home. just talk to your provider. [both] we'll screen with cologuard and do it my way. cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for me, cologuard. if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. >> she's too cool and young to be in the senate. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪ t—mobile's 5g network connects a hundred thousand delta employees so they can make every customer feel like they've arrived before they've left the ground. this is how business goes further with t—mobile for business. today, at america's beverage companies,... ...our bottles might still look the same... ...but they can be remade in a whole new way. thanks to you... we're getting bottles back... and we've developed a way to make new ones from 100% recycled plastic. new bottles - made using no new plastic. you'll be seeing more of these bottles in more places. and when we get more of them back... ...we can use less new plastic. see how our bottles are made to be remade. >> absolutely. even in normal times, and you know from me these are not those, the month of june is a we broke the world into three portions in terms of our busy and vital one for the audience and our ability to

persuade. there's a core of people that no united states supreme court. the term is wrapping up. matter what we found, no matter decisions need to be made and what we said, it wasn't going to quickly. but this year perhaps more than matter. as a matter of fact, it might any other in recent history our actually strengthen their nation's highest court holds in resolve that this is a rigged process. its hands the very future of then there's another group of people that we didn't really need to start. american democracy, which is they had already decided that precisely why the actions of the former president caused the some justices have been under insurrection and was a threat to such intense scrutiny. democracy. but there's some group of people when it comes to justice samuel in the middle, and i don't know if it's a third of america, if alito's unapologetic refusal to it's 10% of america. recuse himself from i don't know how large it is. trump-related cases, for it's hard for me to tell. instance, in the aftermath of but there's still, i think, a his flag-flying scandals, group of people in the middle that are not part of either core there's brand new voice today that are persuadable. >> right. >> and that was our audience, joining the call. in a sunday op-ed in the "philadelphia inquirer," one of right? the select committee said, let's talk to them. let's try to create a credible justice alito's former law clerks insisted the justice narrative of facts, let's just recuse. start with facts that you can't quote, at stake is not only the independence of the court itself really rebut when you hear but also its credibility. partisans of the president saying, i told him it was bull, its role as a protector of our constitutional democracy. joining our conversation, former right? the partisans we presented. prosecutor for the manhattan that might get through to that district attorney's office and middle, third, quarter, whatever it was. the writer of our very own colin cowherd is another voice from that middle. deadline legal blog, the person >> right. >> there are a lot of people that aren't watching this show who keeps us honest two hours a every day, that aren't reading day, which isn't easy, jordan

"the new york times" every day, who aren't even watching fox news or reading "the journal" rubin's here. i love your thoughts this every day. they're just not paying that morning on the significance of one of justice alito's former much attention, so things like a felony conviction, retired clerks speaking out. generals speaking out, the former vice president saying, i tell everyone your thoughts. wouldn't vote for him even though i served under him, >> so what she's saying is those -- those voices have a what's plain for anyone to see. tendency to pop through and to it's just the fact that now it's affect that middle ground. finally coming from someone who >> you passed me a note when the actually clerked for him, even if it's someone who's an admitted progressive. verdict came down after trump so even before this came out there was just no excuse for spoke, rigged trial, rigged alito to be sitting on these election. cases, even before his strained, i think talking about rigged systems when you're sort of an insurgent first-time candidate illogical explanation last week, which think only made matters from the entertainment world or worse and raised more questions business world or whatever than it answered. people saw him as coming from, so the fact they even have a is a different thing than former clerk now needing to tell talking about rigged systems when you ran all the systems. the justice something he i think there's sort of like a shouldn't need to be told, makes depleted adrenal gland in the an obvious case even more obvious than it was before. rigged rant. >> i mean, jordan, what i love >> yeah, well, i mean, we've is that we've had the impression based on alito's many, many heard it a lot. i mean, at some point, you're public appearances where he just, like -- it just becomes bashes the press and seems to like everything is rigged. quote things that people have

i mean, that is, to the -- it's said on this program almost verbatim and rebut them, but rigged that paul manafort is a even his own former clerk knew felon, but he went to trial and that the way to reach him was he was convicted and then, by through the press. let me read some of her -- what the way, he pled guilty. she writes today. it's rigged that michael and this is susan sullivan. flynn -- it's rigged that rick quote, flying the susan sulliva. gates -- it's rigged that steve quote, flying the flag upside down at your home is more than a bannon. >> cowherd's list. i was googling. it's amazing how many people hint of political impropriety. were convicted of felonies. >> i mean, so, this -- i was on it ir refutably calls into question impartiality, sit a the mueller investigation. tangible demonstration of there was a large group of support for those ewho continue people who were convicted, and to assert that the election was just so people understand, some stolen from him. it is the chosen insignia of of them went to trial and were those who tried to hijack the convicted the same way by, you know, you had to prove it to a election and gut the very unanimous jury beyond a constitutional democracy that reasonable doubt, and others, actually, just admitted it from their own mouths. established the supreme court. it's not like you can sit there my question for you is we know and say it's debatable. he'll see it, is he likely to be and i keep on going back to the moved by it? >> absolutely not. if anything, he'll probably be facts of the trump case where further solidified in his it's so easy to say, oh, it's terrible decision, because justice alito's logic essentially comes down to if rigged. you're a reasonable person, david pecker, they did not say you'll see that i don't have to

he was lying. recuse. by saying i need to recuse, >> okay. you're therefore necessarily an >> they didn't cross him to say he was lying. at no point in the closing did unreasonable person. trump's lawyer, for three hours, it's a total circular largic say he was lying. same thing for hope hicks. which reflects bad judgement, same thing for jeff mcconnie. which is an important thing for all of these people are his someone in his position. he clearly cannot be a judge in his own case. unfortunately, that's just the people. is it -- is david pecker -- is way it in the supreme court he rigged? is hope hicks rigged? xchlt the reality is, these decisions are going to be is jeff mcconnie rigged? tainted because of his parms and his own notes rigged? if you go to the actual facts justice thomas' participation in and just dig an inch below the these cases. that's just the reality. and clearly they have chosen to surface, it's blood. go that route. >> jordan rubin, thank you for it's like, you can use that adjective all you want, and sharing your wisdom with all of facts really do need to matter. our viewers, it's great to see >> you have been on the facts you here. get your phones out, folks. we want to remind you, for even bandwagon. >> absolutely. >> it's the only way we get you more on all the legal stories we to do these shows. cover here every day, sign furp >> i leave claire to talk politics. deadline legal newsletter. i'll talk about facts. yeah, facts have to matter. expert analysis from jordan every morning. scan the qr code on your screen i go back to charlottesville. to have it delivered straight to i spent a lot of time thinking about, in a broken community, your inbox. we're going sneak in one more nicole, a really fractured place break, but we'll be right back. where there was a lot of break, but we'll be right back misperceptions and a lot of

anger, let's just start with the truth. let's just start with a credible narrative of what happened. if we can agree on that, then you can start thinking about how to prevent it and what it means and are there broader things that we need to do to reinforce our community, our democracy? we have a hard time in this country even agreeing on the facts because a lot of people question the messenger, and that's what the defendant in this case is trying to do. he's trying to criticize the messenger, the messenger being the criminal justice system. >> yeah. >> they don't agree with the sources. they may not agree with the mainstream media, congress, now the criminal justice system is part of the deep state and is corrupt. continually dispute the messenger of those facts, because they don't want to admit the core fact. >> and that is why we led with colin cowherd, because at some point, and i used to feel this way about -- like, mueller got in a tree house with mccabe, comey left a note for him before he got fired, and all these lifelong republicans hatched a conspiracy to do what? it was ludicrous. the idea now that voters are

going to see something that happened in new york and they're going to see something that happened at the capitol and they're going to see something that happened, charged filed in florida. they're going to hear something on espn. it starts to be too many inputs for, what, did they all get together? is there a morning call where everybody gets up? it's ludicrous. i think that's where you hit a tipping point. i do not believe that the people in the middle that we're talking about are going to believe in these wild conspiracies. >> let's not forget how important it is for people to talk to people about this. sometimes the messenger is, in fact, you. >> yeah. >> you know people in your life that has -- have not digested the facts, and you need to find that common ground where they agree what the facts are and build that conversation from there. that's more powerful than cowherd or the military or anything is one-on-one conversations. >> people that you know. all right. >> and to that point, nicole, i know you have to go to commercial, but the one difference between the criminal justice system and all the others is the involvement of real people.

>> jurors. >> average americans, 12 new yorkers that are not part of the deep state. they're just going to work every day and paying their taxes and talking to their friends. they heard the evidence and decided he was guilty. if that happens again in washington, d.c., that happens again in florida, that is not the chattering professional class of elites. that's regular people. >> right. >> that does have the chance to penetrate, again, that persuadable group. >> and by design, kicks them off. i mean, the process which was also covered. no one's going anywhere as tim alluded to. we're getting pressure to sneak in a break. when we come back, as andrew mentioned, president biden really did want to do the things to the justice department that donald trump has been accusing him all weekend of doing, then why in the world is his son on trial today? stone cold proof that the president is letting doj go about its business as it sees fit. plus, being a pro-trump witness apparently has its financial perks. alarming new investigative reporting on a windfall of financial benefits for those who

stood by the disgraced ex-president while he was on trial. nice work if you can get it, i suppose. and later in the broadcast, harsh new realities for trump post-conviction. presidential candidates get intelligence briefings, but should a convicted felon get one? a leading voice in american intelligence has his answer later in the program. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. es after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. custome and save hundreds with liberty mutual! (inaudible sounds) (elevator doors opening) wait, there's an elevator? otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. otezla can help you get clearer skin. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. live in the moment. ask your doctor about otezla. i don't know how long it's been there. long enough to produce eggs, it seems. it would appear that it has begun moving towards us! visionworks. see the difference. everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. i'm an active mom, but when i laughed, lifted or exercised, bladder leaks were holding me back from doing the things i loved. until, i found a bladder specialist that offered me bulkamid - a life-changing and fda approved non-drug solution for my condition called stress incontinence it really works, and the relief can last for years. take the next step at findrealrelief.com to arrange an appointment with an expert physician to determine if bulkamid is right for you. results and experiences may vary. move beyond the leaks. (♪♪) [shaking] itchy pet? (♪♪) with chewy, save 20% on your first pharmacy order so you can put an end to the itch. get flea and tick medication delivered right to your door. [panting] our biggest challenge? uncertainty. hidden fees, surcharges... who knows what to expect! only pay for what you need. turn shipping to your advantage. keep it simple...with clear, upfront pricing. with usps ground advantage®. ♪♪ one more story you might have missed during the chaos of ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ last week. on friday the texas supreme ♪ liberty. ♪ court rejected a challenge to that state's extreme abortion ban brought by 20 women who say they were denied medically necessary abortions under the state's near total ban. with the justices there argue nrg the decision that texas law does, in fact, permit a life-saving abortion as long as sometimes your work shirt a doctor uses, quote, reasonable needs to be for more than just work. medical judgement. like when it needs to be a big, soft shoulder to cry on. amanda, the named plaintiff in that case, and a familiar face to all of us, disagreed, calling

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morning with jury selection. federal prosecutors allege that hunter biden, who has a well documented struggle with addiction, something he himself wrote a book about, illegally purchased and possessed a firearm at the time he was, as he describes, heavily using drugs. president joe biden released this statement this morning, saying, "i am the president, but i am also a dad. jill and i love our son, and we're so proud of the man he is today. hunter's resilience in the face of adversity and the strength he has brought to his recovery are inspiring to us. a lot of families have loved ones who have overcome addiction and know what we mean. as the president, i don't and won't comment on pending federal cases, but as a dad, i have boundless love for my son, confidence in him and respect for his strength." it all comes while his republican opponent, donald trump, has bashed the department of justice on a near daily basis, claiming it has been weaponized against him, donald trump, the same agency which has

indicted and is today beginning the prosecution of president biden's son. we're back with tim, claire, and its future you. constipation with belly pain again? our doctor figured it out. she said... it's ibs-c and linzess could help you get ahead of it. linzess is not a laxative. it's a once-daily pill that helps you get ahead of your symptoms. it's proven to help you have more frequent and complete bowel movements. and helps relieve overall abdominal symptoms - belly pain, discomfort, and bloating. do not give linzess to children less than two. it may harm them. do not take linzess if you have a bowel blockage. get immediate help if you develop unusual or severe stomach pain, especially with bloody or black stools. the most common side effect is diarrhea, sometimes severe. if it's severe, stop taking linzess and call your doctor right away. these aren't all the side effects. get ahead of it. talk to your doctor and say yess to linzess. learn how abbvie and ironwood could help you save. new projects means new project managers. andrew. claire, the republicans have you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. craig here pays too much for verizon wireless. so he sublet half his real estate office... whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. [ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg's moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. thank you so much for letting us into your homes tried to impeach joe biden. during these etruly extraordinary times. some day we won't say that, but for now we will. even the trumpiest of house republicans threw up their hands we are grateful. the beat with ari melber starts and said, we got nothing. right now, hi, ari. nada. zilch. they've tried to make more of >> hi, nicole. thanks so much, welcome to the the hunter biden -- they actually, i think, met with some beat. we are reporting on the story riveting the nation and much of of the folks involved in this the world. prosecution. the unprecedented conviction of it's always a projection. a former president. and i have a theory about the -- i mean, any family that's been touched by or that has lived or has watched a parent try to keep their child alive or struggle with the disease of addiction, sees the biden family for what it is, literally, eyes wide open, and supporting their son. >> and i think the part of the president's statement that will resonate with a lot of families, it certainly resonates with my family, many other families, we have people we love that have addictions, and it is really

hard. it's a disease that is tenacious and pervasive in this country, and if you don't know that, then you're not in the united states of america. and the irony here -- i mean, let's step back for a minute and think about this. it's a gun charge. now, understand that what the republicans want to do is allow everyone to buy guns everywhere without ever having to tell the federal government anything. >> right. >> they are so totally opposed to the idea that the federal government gets to know anything about them and their gun purchases. they don't believe in the law that he is being prosecuted under. >> that's right. >> can you imagine what donald trump would do if this was don junior being prosecuted for not telling the truth on an application to buy a gun? they would be -- i mean, this would be another moment where he would be calling on everyone to fight the institution of

government over any gun regulation. so, that's the ultimate irony here is that he is -- i don't know how many charges like this did you see brought when you were at doj? >> zero. >> yeah. i mean, there really isn't -- this isn't something that typically the department of justice has big fish to fry in terms of criminal activity. somebody who has lied about their addiction status on an application to buy a gun generally doesn't make their top hundred crimes they're worried about. so, there is a resonance here, i think, that people need to realize, and the fact that joe biden is staying silent on this speaks to his character and his integrity and the respect he has for the oval office and the rule of law. >> you know, this wound its way through the system last summer, and there was some reporting that the law under which he's

charged is not -- may not be constitutional, if and when it's ever tested. there are, around gun issues in america, and with this make-up of the supreme court, to claire's point about irony, there are some legal questions. all the same that the jury's been selected, the trial's under way, and dr. jill biden was there. >> no, there are cases that are pending dealing with sort of analogous provisions of when you can criminalize ownership of a gun, whether amy coney barrett, before she was on the supreme court, questioned the validity and the constitutionality of some of the provisions that are part of this same law that is at issue here. i wanted to point out a similar irony, which is, in the case before judge cannon, that mar-a-lago case, what is pending

there is a motion to say that jack smith needs to be completely disqualified because it is unconstitutional to have a special counsel. and so, he needs to go. that would also mean he goes from the d.c. case. and that is a motion that is pending. interestingly, there is -- >> yes. >> yeah, you know who was prosecuting the hunter biden? a special counsel. now, it is clear, the special counsel law is constitutional. we have litigated it three times in the mueller case. the special counsels, whether it's jack smith, whether it's david weiss, who's got the hunter biden case, they're what's called subordinate officers. they're within the department of justice. they do report to the attorney general, and any day of the week, the attorney general could say, you know what, you're gone, i'm going to take control of this. it's just an internal regulation that is entirely constitutional. but the complete -- it's just

shameless that it's like, you know what, it's a case that we don't want you to bring. we're going to say it's unconstitutional. if it's a case we do want you to bring, it's absolutely fine. and to me, that -- again, it goes to what you're hearing from donald trump, which is, if i'm -- you know, i'm acquitted, it's fair. if i'm convicted, it's rigged. and by contrast, you have joe biden truly living what it means to act out of principle. >> yeah, it is -- i mean, and to what tim's saying about -- there's people over here that you're never going to reach. there's people over here that are always going to support the president, that have read hunter's book or lived with addiction. what does the large swath in the middle see about this? up next for all of us is witness tampering at play in the criminal cases against donald trump? a brand-new piece of extraordinary reporting suggests that very well could be the case. one of the reporters who broke the story will be our next guest. don't go anywhere. story will bet esgut. don't go anywhere.

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one witness described phone calls from people interested in that witness's testimony. "what they said to me is as long as i continue to be a team player, they know i'm on the right team. i'm doing the right thing. i'm protecting who i need to protect. you know i'll continue to stay in good graces in trumpworld."

"and they have reminded me a couple times that trump does read transcripts and just keep that in mind as i proceed through my interviews with the committee." >> it's still happening, folks. that was former congresswoman liz cheney describing trump allies' attempts to influence witness testimony during the january 6th select committee hearings. investigating the insurrection. brand-new reporting out today finds that it is very much not an isolated incident. propublica today reporting on a pattern of trump aides and allies who find themselves ensnared in his many, many, many legal travails, receiving suspiciously timed financial benefits. one campaign aide has his average monthly pay double from $26,000 a month to $53,500 a month. another employee got a $2 million severance package, barring him from voluntarily cooperating with law enforcement. one of the campaign's top

officials had her daughter hired on to the campaign staff where she is now the fourth highest paid employee. these pay increases and other benefits often came at delicate moments in the legal proceedings against trump. one aide who was given a position on trump's board got that seat after he was subpoenaed but before he testified. the trump campaign denied the allegations, saying, "any false assertion that we're engaging in any type of behavior that may be regarded as tampering is absurd and completely fake." joining our conversation, propublica reporter justin elliot. tim, claire, and andrew are back with us. take me through what you found and what you learned. >> sure, so, first of all, as you noted, the context here is this issue of witness tampering or trying to influence witnesses. it's something that has come up repeatedly over the years with president trump and sort of other investigations in his world. actually, roger stone and paul

manafort, both former trump campaign aides, were each convicted of witness tampering charges, federally. president trump made a post on social media last year in which he actually explicitly said a georgia politician should not appear before the grand jury down there. so, what we found is money flowing from three trump entities, the campaign, the business, a trump organization, and trump media, truth social, to people who had been witnesses in the various cases he's facing, and this is something that, you know, white-collar defense lawyers we spoke to said really gets their blood pressure up when you see bonuses and raises flowing to people who are also witnesses or potential witnesses about the boss's behavior. >> let me read from the reporting, because you guys, as usual, bring the receipts. susie wilds, the head of the trump campaign. you write this, "when trump was indicted on june 8th over his handling of the documents, the

indictment described trump allegedly showing susie wiles a classified map related to a military operation, acknowledging, that he should not be showing it. news reports indicated that wiles told others she was testified because she was forced to. that june, the political consulting firm wiles founded received its highest ever monthly payment from the trump campaign, $75,000, an amount the firm has only equalled once since. a few months later, wiles' daughter, caroline, reportedly left one job because she didn't pass a background check but was hired by his campaign. her salary, $222,000, making her the fourth highest paid staffer." i worked on campaigns. what does the third, second, and first highest paid staffer make? >> it's not much more than that, actually. but -- and that's actually one of the smaller amounts of money

that we reported on. i mean, in another case, dan scavino, the long-time trump communications aide, got a grant of stock from the new trump media company worth $4 million. he also got a board seat on the company in between the time when he got a subpoena in one of the investigations and when he finally testified. so -- and to be clear, the lawyers we spoke to said to actually cross the threshold of the federal crime of witness tampering, prosecutors needed to show there was actually intent to -- i believe the phrase is corruptly persuade or influence a witness's testimony, and we have no reporting about the intent of president trump or the campaign, but there is this pretty striking pattern where we found at least nine cases of witnesses getting significant financial benefits. >> well, and to maybe -- i mean, the dots that propublica has presented to the world and other

investigative reporting they've done have sort of always painted a picture that is what it appears. so, i appreciate the note about these being dots that aren't necessarily connected by intent. but let me put them all up. boris epshteyn, his pay more than doubled. susie wiles, payments to her firm, the campaign hired her daughter. margot martin, i got a 20% raise. dan scavino, who we talked about, appointed to the board. jennifer little, payments to her firm increased dramatically. evan corcoran, remember him? he became a witness in mar-a-lago. payments to his law firm dramatically increased. allen weisselberg, it became an issue in the criminal trial, had a lucrative severance package which was almost entered into evidence around questions of whether he would testify. >> it all sounds familiar, as the clip you played from the vice chair, ms. cheney. we had a lot of evidence, witnesses to whom we wanted to

speak, either had invited to come voluntarily or subpoenaed had lawyers show up, paid for by the save america pac. ironically, the money that went into the save america pac to pay the lawyers was raised on this stop the steal narrative, which continues to raise money. there's this weird vicious circle of money raised talking about election lies is preventing people telling us about election lies. there's nothing illegal about a third party paying a lawyer to represent an individual. that's permissible as long as the lawyer is loyal to the client, not to the payer. we had evidence in our case that some of those lawyers were sharing information over the client's objection. >> cassidy. >> cassidy hutchinson, in great detail, testified about this and got a new lawyer because her belief was that the first lawyer was doing things against her interest, not abiding by that ethical obligation to be loyal

to her. this new reporting, really interesting, reaches back years and years and is just the latest manifestation of a pattern that we have seen. >> what's amazing, too, is it spans all the criminal indictments, right? weisselberg on the hush money, corcoran on mar-a-lago documents, wiles on mar-a-lago documents, scavino on documents on january 6th. we're going to ask everyone to stick around. we have to sneak in a break, but we have many more questions for you on this great reporting. we'll all be right back. you on this great reporting. we'll all be right back. [street noise] [car door shuts]

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everyone is back with us. justin elliot, andrew weissmann has a question for you. >> so, i understood what you were saying about that you have no sort of direct evidence of intent, someone saying, you know, this is -- we did it to corruptly persuade. but i was wondering if anybody has responded, any of the people that you have written about, with any factual information that would explain why they were suddenly getting more money or why their relatives were getting hired. in other words, is there any sort of objective basis so that you can go, okay, well, maybe that's the case, or if there isn't, well, that's -- because we were saying, that's how you build a circumstantial case. >> yeah, it's a great question, and i think, in our reporting, there's really a spectrum. a couple of the attorneys that we wrote about told us that the spike in payments -- these are trump attorneys who also became

witnesses down in georgia or in the classified documents case, and what they told us was, look, basically, we were just working more hours, and that's what explains the spike in payments from the trump campaign. we weren't able to get a look at their invoices to kind of fact check that. they wouldn't provide those. but that is possible. in other cases, like the case of boris epshteyn, the trump campaign aide whose pay doubled from around $26,000 a month to over $50,000 a month, a lot of money, the campaign simply said, you know, his workload increased. but in that case, for example, we also found he's still working for other campaigns. he started a new role with the financial services firm in the same period. so you know, it's not like he's working full-time for the trump campaign. is that really an explanation for his payments to him doubling? so in many cases to answer your

question, no, we don't have a full explanation for these increases. >> and let me just put back into the record what we know trump has done in the area of witness tampering. this is liz cheney once again. >> after our last hearing president trump tried to call a witness in our investigation, a witness you have not yet seen in these hearings. that person declined to answer or respond to president trump's call. and instead alerted their lawyer to the call. their lawyer alerted us. and this committee has supplied that information to the department of justice. let me say one more time, we will take any effort to influence witness testimony very seriously. >> i read all the doj indictments of donald trump. i don't believe witness tampering is one of them.

in volume 2 of the mueller report, in the obstruction tome, there was witness tampering. but there's a consequence to never holding trump accountable, not through the mueller probe, not through january 6th, not through the documents. i know he's been charged for the obstruction piece of mar-a-lago p but it's abundantly schraer that judge will never happen, certainly not in judge aileen cannon's courtroom. there is this issue that if all of your legal education comes from "law & order" i don't know that you know the fancy legal terms but the central tenet is if someone's going to keep doing this thing over and over again the system has failed. trump continues to tamper with witnesses over and over and over again. >> well, we have a real expert to my right here on mob behavior. i don't know if you did organized crime cases too. >> yes. >> those are typically brought in the federal system and not the state system that i participated in. but this is really classic mob

behavior. you take care of people that take care to not talk to law enforcement. you take care of them. you take care of people who take a hit for you. look at all the people who have gone down for donald trump. and they have not come forward. you take care -- i mean, manafort, they're trying to bring manafort back in, for gosh sakes. i would use another word but i'm trying to be polite in this afternoon hour. so it is one of those things that it just resonates with -- you get away with it because you clamp down on the people who can put you in jail in ways they cannot squirm out. weisselberg is a perfect example. look how he's been rewarded. he's in rikers but he's got 2 million bucks. >> waiting for him. it's unbelievable. >> and in these cases you never have direct evidence of the sort of attempt to corruptly influence testimony. you don't need it.

because the power of the person providing the benefit is such that it's clear that they're -- what the intent is. >> you have the money, you have the lack of cooperation, you have the lack of accountability. >> and the mob boss doesn't say hey, if you don't do this i'm going to kill you. but it's clear because of the power imbalance and the provision of the benefit that engenders loyalty. so i'm not surprised that in all these indictments you don't have a count of obstruction of justice or witness intimidation because again, the direct evidence of that is very, very difficult. >> justin elliott, you and your colleagues are on a roll. it's a pleasure to get to talk to you about this incredible new report. thank you very much for spending time with us. andrew, claire and tim, it's a pleasure to have all of you at the table. embarrassment of riches. thank you so much for being here. up next for us, another hour. we're only at the halfway point. a historic first in mexico. we'll tell you about that before the next hour starts. don't go anywhere. we're just getting started. e. we're just getting started tyler, he's ten, and little dayrl, he's 12.

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over the weekend the people of mexico made history, electing its first woman as president as well as its first president of jewish heritage. claudia sheinbaum, in a landslide victory capturing at least 58% of the vote. president joe biden called the president-elect today to congratulate her on her victory. sheinbaum is a physicist, a climate scientist, a nobel peace prize winner for her work as part of a u.n. panel. former mayor of mexico city. and now president-elect. in a victory speech to supporters she said this, quote, for the first time in 200 years of our republic i will become the first woman president. as i've said on other occasions, i don't make it alone. we've all made it. with our heroines who gave us you are homeland-w our mothers our daughters and our granddaughters. much more news to get to in the second hour of dlds. don't go anywhere. ere. but i'm staying focused. and doing more to prevent recurrence. verzenio is specifically for hr-positive, her2-negative, node-positive early breast cancer

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donald trump was entitled to

the presumption of innocence. he received it. donald trump was entitled to a trial by a jury of his peers. he received it. donald trump was entitled to a vigorous defense. he received it. that is an affirmation of the american judicial system. this is america. we are not a system that is occupied by a monarch or a king or a dictator. we are a democracy. and in a democracy no one is above the law. >> hi again, everybody. it's now 5:00 in new york. it is one of the preeminent features of american governance that truly makes this country a democracy. that is, what the leader said right there. the rule of law and the equal application of it. when it came to the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president, the rule of law was followed. evidence was presented. witnesses testified. and a jury of donald trump's peers reached a verdict.

just like any other trial of any other american citizen. but a now convicted donald trump has only sharpened his attacks since that conviction against the rule of law, painting himself as a political prisoner of sorts, a target of a so-called politicized justice system. trump has sown distrust in our institutions to make himself look better, to puff himself up, if you will. but the staying power of his attacks is only possible because the people in the republican party promote the attacks and the lies as well. watch. >> this was a disgrace. this was a rigged trial by a conflicted judge who was corrupt. it's a rigged trial, a disgrace. >> what happened there was outrageous. and you're right, the american people see it. this is a purely political exercise, not a legal one. >> it's really the two-tiered justice system that has so many americans concerned about fairness in our country.

>> no, it doesn't. not if you weren't telling them that, lying to them. and it isn't just the justice system and the rule of law. trump and the likes of his enablers that you saw there have sought to undermine another pillar of our democracy that holds all individuals accountable, the free press. >> fake news is all you get. and they are the enemy of the people. >> the media is corrupt and complicit in this. >> in media rigged the 2016 election. they rigged the 2020 election with the hunter biden laptop story. and they're going to rig this election. >> i think it shows how low the media is willing to go to cover for joe biden. >> i can't even rig traffic. as well as the ultimate check on any official's power in a democracy, free and fair elections. watch that. >> we didn't lose. it was a rigged election. so they rigged the presidential

election in 2020, and we're not going to allow them to rig the presidential election in 2024. >> will you accept the election results of 2024 no matter what happens, senator? >> no matter what happens? no. if it's an unfair election -- >> what would you have done if you were vice president? >> i would not have done what mike pence did. >> i would not have done what mike pence did. what did mike pence do? refuse to overturn an election he lost. it's a terrifying portrait of cowardice, political cravenness. and a pattern. if you don't watch closely-u might not notice that it's getting worse. it's getting more extreme. the lies are going completely mainstream in the wake of trump's conviction on thursday. the denigrations to our institutions are harmful. a vengeful donald trump poses an actual immediate national security threat today. nbc news reports this. quote, donald trump could turn america's spy services into weapons of retribution against

domestic political opponents. he could skew intelligence findings in favor of authoritarian leaders and undermine information sharing with u.s. allies if he wins a second term. that is according to more than a dozen, a dozen former intelligence officers, western officials and lawmakers. the starkest of contrasts shaping up between the two major political parties. one that respects the rule of law, america's alliances and the intelligence community, and the other whose leader and members have shown that they will do away with the fundamentals of our society, of our democracy to save trump. where could that leave us if the latter is in power? living in an autocracy right here in america. it could happen. it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. former cia director now msnbc national security analyst john brennan is here. plus the co-founder and executive director at protect democracy ian bassen is back. and former trump impeachment

manager congresswoman madelene dean of pennsylvania is with us. director brennan-i start with you. last time you were here we talked about whether or not trump should receive intelligence briefings once he is officially the nominee of the republican party. he's now a convicted felon. do you still think he should? >> no, i do not, nicolle. and i said previously that i thought that the biden administration could give him essentially an unclassified intelligence briefing without any reference to sources or methods to keep up the tradition for the last 70 years of providing a presidential candidate a briefing before the election. but now that he is a convicted felon i do believe that he should not be entitled to that. because if he were given such a briefing i think it would minimize the significance of this conviction, a felony, as well as belittle the whole process. clearly, donald trump has shown total disrespect and disregard for the rule of law. and so one of the things that i would offer to the biden

administration if i were still in government, my recommendation would be to maybe offer an intelligence briefing to somebody within the trump orbit like a robert o'brien, a former national security adviser who i do think is a person of integrity but not to give it to donald trump himself because again, aside from just the total disregard he has shown for classified information when he left the white house, and donald trump never would have qualified for a security clearance at any time during his life, but once you're in the oval office you get access to this country's secrets. but i certainly would think that the biden administration is going to rethink their previous decision to offer him an intelligence briefing prior to the election. >> director brennan, are we past the point of having like a wtf republicans conversation? john kelly afraid of trump starting a nuclear war with north korea by calling him little rocket man. you had mattis quit for cause over his policy around the border between turkey and syria.

you had milley averting through white knuckle communications political instability on january 6th. i mean, the folks who had your old job gripped the steering wheel with the whitest of white knuckles. are we past the point where anyone can say to anyone in the republican party like you really want to do this again, guys? >> well, it seems like they do want to do it despite i think the real concern that donald trump is going to weaponize the institutions of governance. law enforcement, justice, intelligence and other types of things in order to advance his personal agenda. when it's clear that the members of congress who have come out with these outrageous statements, again, denigrating the decision of 12 jurors in new york, it just shows that not only donald trump has this disregard for the rule of law but republicans almost across the board -- and there are too few liz cheneys and others and

adam kinzingers and individuals who don't have that integrity, who are willing to stand up to donald trump. but unfortunately they're few and far between and it appears the republicans are willing to allow this travesty to be wrought upon our government by continuing to advocate for donald trump's presidency. >> ian bassen, i like a reality check from you in terms of where we are. obviously, the republican party, which has all of these impulses and instincts that are clearly autocratic in nature, is not in power of the executive branch. they control the house but not the senate. but these are the things they're saying to their base and they're kind of neck and neck in the polls, which suggests that the public does not view these things as disqualifying. what does that say to you? where are we? >> i think the phenomenon that we're seeing from the republican party reminds me of the parable of the drowning man. if you remember this parable,

it's about a preacher in a small town. flood waters are rising in the town and the precher praise for god to save him. and then neighbors come along with a canoe and urge the preacher to get in. he says no, no, it's okay, god will save me. then the coast guard comes by in a motor boat and urges the preacher to get in. he says no, no, god will save me. eventually the fire department. the helicopter lowers a ladder and says climb on. and the preacher says no, no, god will save me. and of course the preacher drowns and when he meets god at the pearly gates he says why didn't you save me? and god says i sent you a canoe, a motor boat and a helicopter, what more do you want? and i think our nation right now is in danger of drowning and republicans are acting like the preacher, continuing to decline to use the tools that we've been given, that our founders gave us to save us. there was an impeachment, an opportunity to deal with donald trump then. and they said no, no, this isn't the way but don't worry our institutions will save us. there were criminal indictments and ultimately a criminal conviction. they said no, that's not the right way but don't worry, the

institutions will save us. there's an election. and they're all getting behind him including nikki haley. they're saying don't worry, the checks will hold, the institutions will save us. but in our parable the people are the sovereigns and if we don't do it, if we don't use these institutions no inanimate institution is coming along to save us. the founders gave us canoes, motor boats and helicopters and if we don't use them we're doomed. >> well, i love that. and i think the helicopter with the ladder was the 2020 election. and the midterm before and after it, right? they didn't -- to your point, they didn't like impeachments. it was a political process. we can't remove a president. that was why the senate twice refused to convict him even though the facts of both impeachments were never really in dispute. and the indictments from the most sort of small c conservative attorney general sort of in modern history in merrick garland to your point

they impugned the integrity of merrick garland himself and his deputy lisa monaco. many of them voepted to confirm both of them. but the election also spoke decisively. trump lost by huge numbers. republicans have suffered electoral defeats by huge numbers. it's the rejection of -- in your story the helicopter and the ladder. does it suggest that the republican party drowns or that the country drowns? >> well, it's the country because it's not just republican leaders who are declining to use the tools in our constitution to protect the republic be from a tyrant but frankly it's civic leaders of all stripes around this country. it's leaders in business institutions. it's leaders in the media, present company excluded. it's leaders in faith communities and other sectors in society who are essentially -- and i meet with many of them on a regular basis saying well, i don't want to get involved in partisan politics, i think it's all going to be okay. our schekz will hold. the institutions will save us.

but all of those people are engaging in the same fallacy as the preacher. our institutions will not defend themselves. and right now our whole nation and the future of self-government in this country depends on us realizing that it is up to us as individuals to use the tools at our disposal. they will not operate independent of us picking them up. >> congresswoman, i would like to associate myself with everyone that's been said before you. i want to ask you, though, where the opportunity lies for the democratic party. republicans are now engaged in the desecration of the american flag on a scale that i've never seen, not just in my political life but in my life on this planet. celebrating and defending people who have hung the flag upside down. it is in modern political parlance something last seen in large numbers by the trump supporters who carried the upside down flag at the insurrection. i haven't seen republicans have

to answer whether or not they support or oppose or condemn the alitos flying the upside down flag on their porch. i mean, the failures of everybody are too many to enumerate here or we'll be here for four more hours. what is the opportunity for democrats in this moment? >> well, i want to say amen to the two preachers who spoke before me. i too associate myself with the parable. and of course the wisdom of cia former director. what i do want to celebrate first, if you don't mind, is thank you to those 12 citizen strangers, frankly, who listened attentively to the case, listened to the evidence, listened to the able attorneys on both sides, and listened to a very talented judge by all reporting, and they found 34 convictions. this was a clear signal to the american people that the rule of

law does hold against a tremendous push and weight of the corrupt former president. but of all the people that are associated with him who are now saying outrageous things, to speak to the alito flag flying, number one, how cheesy to blame it on your wife. it's your house too, justice alito. forgive me. i can't understand this, blame it on my wife, she has every right to do everything he wants, as he writes opinions that take away women's rights. but also i have to tell you, nicolle, having been there on january the 6th, having been an impeachment manager, when i first saw that flag flying i was disgusted. not because i thought of it in association with january 6th. i just thought of it as so unpatriotic. how rude to our country that anyone would do that. and then was reminded that it had been co-opted, this distress signal had been co-opted by

those who were chanting "stop the steal." and brought it to this capitol, to this place where i am. and used it to beat police officers alongside trump flags and regular american flags. so it's a very low moment. i've called for justice alito to recuse himself. but could i also speak to the parable? in terms of the cry that our institutions will save us, there's one other layer here that is so corrosive. and that is something i have watched for six years on the judiciary committee, the very powerful judiciary committee, whether we were in the majority or we are now in the minority. with jim jordan as the chair. they have spent most hearings and most mark-ups tearing down our faith in our institutions. literally. the speaker, when he was on our committee, if it was fbi in front of us, doj, whoever was in front of us, they would use

their time at the microphone to tear down the institutions and then go out to a microphone like this and say i can't understand why americans just don't have faith in our institutions. they're a part of the problem. they are complicit alongside the least patriotic president we will ever see. >> congresswoman, larry hogan, republican of maryland, is facing backlash for simply saying this. quote, i urge all americans to respect the verdict and the legal process. at this dangerously divided moment in our history all leaders regardless of party must not pour fuel on the pfeiffer fire with more toxic partisanship. we must reaffirm what has made this nation great, the rule of law. he's -- i don't know. i think the word is getting canceled by the republican establishment. what does that tell you about the asymmetry or the progress that that project you just described has made? >> well, hogan is absolutely

right. that of course this is the rule of law, that we all swear an oath to. the constitution we swear an oath to. i'm a former lawyer. that's why i love seeing this process play out. and i actually thought win or lose, acquit or find guilty, the president had to stand to account. he had to stand trial. and for public servants who swear to the constitution and to the rule of law to be calling it -- what are some of the expressions that the speaker are using? a travesty of justice. will they find it a travesty of justice that hunter biden is sitting trial now? or is this america? is this that we must be held to account to the rule of law. strange that in all of this none of the republicans who are so complicit alongside this corrupt, corrosive president, former president, have ever said donald trump's behavior is why we are where we are. whether it was january 6th or

these trials that he is silting for and being held to account. both civilly and criminally. they're dealing with the most irrational child of a man. and yet they don't ever say you know what, it's actually his behavior that he is being held to account for. after all, this was behavior days before a national election where he wanted to bury a story that would have hurt his electoral prospects. they know that. they know the truth of it. and the jury has spoken. >> congresswoman and director john brennan thank you, very much for starting us off. this conversation is to be continued. ian sticks around a little bit longer with us. when we come back, there's brand new reporting in the atlantic about what our friends in europe think about all this. what we've been discussing. and their growing anxiety of what the twice impeached four times indicted now criminally convicted ex-president would do if he were to return to the

white house. the journalists who talked with dozen of foreign officials and leaders about those rising fears will be our next guest. plus the question facing president joe biden. how hard should he push donald trump's felony conviction as an election issue over the next five months? we'll put that question to the co-chair of the biden-harris presidential campaign later in the hour. and in what will be a huge month for the supreme court, another call for justice alito to recuse from one of his own former clerks. we'll tell you about it. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues aft. don't go anywhere. he thinks his flaky red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. otezla can help you get clearer skin. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. live in the moment. ask your doctor about otezla.

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that another trump term would bring to stability, national security, democracy spreads far beyond us here, our borders. the entire continent of europe, for example, where mckay coppin spoke with dozens of leaders who he says expressed alarm bordering on panic at the possibility while russia wages war next door. the, quote, undercurrent of dread by our nato allies who take trump at his word and his flippant disrespect for the alliance that has for seven decades shared a commitment to democratic values. fear, coppins says, of losing their most powerful ally that has, quote, translated into a pathologically intense fixation on the u.s. presidential race. coppins writes today europeans are bracing for an america that behaves like any other transactional superpower. several officials express fears that trump would turn america's nato membership into a protection racket.

threatening. joining us now the aforementioned mckay coppins, staff writer for the "the atlantic" and msnbc contributor. mckay, the first thing i thought of is your exquisite body of reporting on mitt romney. i mean, why don't people understand why you write about, act more forcefully to influence the outcome of november's election? >> yeah, it's a fair question. i mean, i think that among the republicans who are fearly clear-eyed about the risks trump poses both domestically and internationally there's a lot of people who believe in american power abroad, right? they believe in america's role as not just a supplier of security and protection to european allies but as an aspirational democracy that other western democracies should look to. and i think that a lot of those

republicans are worried about the trickle-down effects of a trump presidency on america's standing in the world. but also, you know, look, a lot of republicans also don't know how to influence the party. i think mitt romney, for example, somebody who clearly believes in nato, believes in america's influence around the world but also realizes that his influence on the republican base at this point is basically nil, and his ability to try to move those voters away from trump is pretty minimal. >> i just made a list. romney, hailey, bolton, mcconnell, portman, graham, thune, corker, john kelly, jim mattis. i mean, the list -- i understand what you're saying that one of them sort of staring at their twitter feed or after getting barked at at an airport will think oh, they won't listen to me. but i've interviewed world leaders who said i'm not sure that -- the foundations of

american foreign policy making could fall apart if people believe what they're saying, and i have no reason to doubt your reporting or anne applebaum's reporting or things that people have said on our program. so do you sense that the alarm -- are they all just paralyzed? >> i'll give you an example of what should alarm them. so i report in this piece that the german foreign ministry is making contingency plans for the outcome of the american election in 2024 and they have plans for a biden re-election but i will tell you that most people in germany and really most of the officials across europe i spoke to do not believe biden will be re-elected. they believe that trump is going to win. their plans for trump's return involve trying to figure out how he will destabilize a wide range of issues, from ukraine to nato to climate change to tariff policy. and they're also figure out who

his confidants are, how they can get close to them. but this is what's striking to me. they are also making plans for a third scenario in which basically there's a sustained period of uncertainty about the outcome of the election accompanied potentially by widespread political violence in the u.s. and their fear is that in such a moment of vulnerability that would be when vladimir putin or some other adversary decides to roll the dice and attack nato or, you know, do something really provocative because they believe that america would be paralyzed. so when you step back and think about the fact that we have allies in europe who are now drawing up contingency plans for basically a democratic collapse in the united states, that should be really sobering for people who believe in america, believe in america as an aspirational democracy regardless of what party they're

in. >> ian, i'll put this list to you. i mean, they are preparing for a democratic collapse in europe. this is not an msnbc person what they call tds, i think i was first accused of having tds in 2015. it stands for trump p delusions or something. but what keeps mitt romney and nikki hailey and john bolton and mitch mcconnell and rob portman and john sthun and sow esper and gina pass haspel and chris wray and john kelly and mark milley from warning about what they surely have access to that would point to the same possibility as our friends in germany. >> i think there's two things that maybe if i could speculate what's going on with them that could be standing in the way. one is that as awful as they personally believe strup to be, and we've talked about this before in this program, nicolle, i think they fundamentally don't

view him as as dangerous. they believe that ultimately he's too incompetent to undermine the american system or the international alliance. and i think what is so naive and troubling about that is that i have found there is a direct relationship between how close attention people pay to what donald trump is proposing to do and the detailed plans that people around him are laying out to do it and how alarmed they are. the more attention people focus on it, the more alarmed they are. this is why mckay's article is so important. because those people in the highest levels of governments that are our top allies in the world, whose job it is to assess the state of the united states, where it could lead and what it means, for the national security of their own publics, of their own countries, they are among the most alarmed people out there. and if they're alarmed, then certainly the group of people you listed are missing something

if they think somehow this danger isn't at that defcon 5 level. and i think in addition to the national security potential danger ramifications if they're worried about sort of american foreign policy and geopolitical stability, think about what people who are making bets on the financial future for the united states and the world are thinking. because one of the things that mckay talks about in his article that they said that they basically -- basically if trump is elected our allies have said we will never trust you again. maybe 2016 was a fluke but if you elect him again knowing everything we know we will not trust you again. right now the u.s. dollar is the most trusted currency in the world. and american power, economic and otherwise, stems heavily from that fact. but if all of a sudden trust were lost in the stability of the united states, that would mean trust likely would be lost in the dollar. what happens to this country when all of a sudden the dollar no longer becomes the reserve currency? the second thing i think that is standing in the way of that group of people you listed is

they are seemingly incapable of organizing amongst themselves. what we have seen over the last eight years is every one of those people individually has stood up at some point in time bravely and to their credit courageously and called out what's going on. but they've done it as solo cam cazzie pilots and as a result they've ended up crashing themselves in the process. we have not seen any unified campaign from them. and mitt romney's right, probably on his own he's not going to affect the gop base but