death threats to doxing that includes sending pizzas to his house. he funnily told one of our colleagues he had domino's sent to his house, he didn't know domino's exist in manhattan. he will continue to be on the receiving end of threats so long as republicans continue to fight against and tell lies about the trial that led to donald trump's conviction here in manhattan. i feel for him and his family. >> yeah, and it's not just michael cohen. there's an active effort to figure out the identities of the jurors so they can be targeted as well. all right, lisa reuben, thank you very much. always ending on a happy note with you. >> i'll try next time. >> i'm kidding. that is going to do it for me today. deadline white house starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. of the many ways to describe donald trump these days, you can

officially add unhinged convicted felon who snapped after he lost the 2020 election to the list. that is how the current leader of the free world, president joe biden, describes his rival and his first expansive remarks taking down donald trump post trial, post conviction. the president taking the presumptive republican nominee on head on, for having made history in all of the wrong ways. for becoming the first ever ex-american president to become a convicted felon and for being the first convicted felon to then try to become president again. current president telling a crowd at a fund-raiser in connecticut last night that the 2024 election campaign had entered, quote, uncharted territory, with trump's criminal conviction. adding that as if the guilty verdict isn't disturbing enough, quote, more damaging is the all out assault donald trump is making on the american system of justice. echoing remarks president biden made last week, he called out

trump's claims of a rigged justice system, and his violent rhetoric in the wake of his conviction. including comments he made on fox news that the public would reach a, quote, breaking point. of that, president biden says this, quote, it is reckless, dangerous, and downright irresponsible for anyone to say that it's rigged just because you don't like the verdict. now, according to president biden, the stakes of this upcoming election are even higher than last time because, quote, the threat that trump poses would be greater in a second term than it was in his first term. this isn't the same trump who got elected in 2016. he is worse. something snapped in him when he lost in 2020. he can't accept he lost, and it's literally driving him crazy. the theme of protecting our democracy and the threat trump poses to our country is something that the president returned to in a brand-new in depth interview with "time" magazine. president biden saying this about trump's conduct on january

6th. how he sat back and let a mob ransack the u.s. capitol endangering the life of his own vice president. quote, it made me realize just how fundamentally what he allowed to happen sitting in this room. looking at that television for three hours, and he didn't do a damn thing. said about america and how much confidence people lost in america. that's not a major international meeting i attended and that before it's over and i have attended many more than most presidents have in 3 1/2 years that a world leader doesn't pull me aside as i'm leaving and say, he can't win. you can't let them win. my democracy and their democracy is at stake. my democracy is at stake. name me a word leader other than orban and putin who think trump should be the leader of the united states of america. president biden turning to campaign speeches and interviews to underscore and turn up the

volume in articulating the stakes of the 2024 election is where we start today. with us at the table, former republican congressman, msnbc political analyst david jolly. also, democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college, msnbc political analyst basil smikle is here. also, the executive director of republican voters against trump, publisher of the bulwark, sarah longwell is here. we're going to speak with senior spokesman for the biden/harris campaign, adrienne elrod. it's great to have you here. great to have you in this role. i think a lot of biden supporters are eager to see him turn up the volume. the material basically writes itself. tell me about the comments we have highlighted today. >> well, nicolle, thank you for having me. great to be with you. look, we're five month out from this election. donald trump has been convicted of 34 felonies. there's no one better to make

that contrast to not only talk about what's at stake in this election, what the choice is, but also the fact that, yes, donald trump, you know, may have done a number of reckless things as president but he's become even more unhinged since then, as you artfully laid out in your intro, and we have to made it clear somebody who has become even more unhinged and somebody who is literally tearing down the pillars of our democracy, the judicial system truly being at the center of that, is somebody who is incredibly dangerous and should not ever step back in the oval office. again, there's nobody more effective in drawing that contrast and making that point than the current president of the united states, joe biden, who is also the other person that americans will choose, whether in this upcoming election with this binary choice. i think you're going to hear president biden continue to make more of a contrast, continue to drive home this point. again, convicted felon or not, we know this choice and this election is all about coming down to the ballot box in the final stretch of this campaign and we are still going to make

sure that president biden is taking the case to the american people. we're not just leaning on these convictions, these felonies. we're making sure the american understand what president biden has done, what he's continuing to do to help them, and contrast to donald trump, who not only is tearing down our judicial system but is also seeking political revenge on his enemies and wants to seek political retribution if he gets back in the oval office. >> andrew weissmann was here yesterday, the first day of hunter biden's trial, and we covered the first lady entering the courthouse, and there's more family there today in support of hunter biden. the president had a statement yesterday. talking about his love and support for his son and his battle with the disease of addiction and now in the trial, i wonder if it's enough that people see the obvious contrast, right? the president's own son is being prosecuted by the justice department. the projection and the

accusation on the right, you have to spend a minute in the rabbit hole, the sort of disinformation they consume, but the entire construction is that trump is prosecuted by alvin bragg in new york because of the biden justice department. and as ludicrous as it is, it seems like a decent contrast to say, no, he's not in charge of that, but the one he is in charge of is prosecuting his own son. is it a conversation people are comfortable having or do you feel like it's a story that tells itself? >> look, i think it's a story that tells itself. again, we're looking at this as president biden, dr. biden, very supportive parents of their son, i think millions of americans out there can understand what it's like to have someone who has suffered addiction and overcome those challenges. they're very supportive. at the end of the day, this election is a choice between joe biden, president joe biden, and donald trump. it is not about hunter biden. we're going to stay laser focused on not only of course making it clear that somebody who does not support the pillars

of democracy, who is tearing down our judicial system should never be allowed back in the oval office, but we're going to make it clear what president biden is doing and will continue do for the american people in a second term. lowering prescription drug costs, capping insulin at $35. that's where president biden's focus is, and you're going to see him traveling across the country hitting battleground states which he's been doing in contrast to trump who has really not hit battleground states. you're going to see him take that message to the campaign trail. that's where our focus is, making the lives of american people better in contrast to trump who simply wants to seek political revenge and retribution on his enemies if he gets back in the oval office. >> so says trump himself. i want to ask you about this line about trump snapping in 2020. i had not heard the president make that on the campaign trail, and i think our friend sarah longwell, who is an expert and has educated me on permission structures might see that it seems to create a permission

structure, even for a '16 and '20 trump supporter to say he is different, and we have tried to roll the tape and show it without saying it, i'm not a doctor, but trump is performatively significantly diminished from his campaign persona of '16 and '20. i wonder if this idea of a breaking point and a snapping which is certainly corroborated by the january 6th select committee witnesses, people like cassidy hutchinson and sarah matthews who talked about trump's, i don't know what word to use other than shame spiral, i can't believe i lost to this guy, all those colorful pieces of testimony. i wonder if it's informed by that or informed by what we see, and if it's strategic in that way of creating a permission structure for '16 and '20 voters to come to the biden coalition. >> such a great point. i think it's all of the above. again, it's increasingly difficult as you know well to break through in this political cycle even if you are the president of the united states. there's so much noise out there, but when the president of the united states, the current

president of the united states, goes out there and really drives home this point, you know, says that donald trump has snapped, which is true. lists examples of how he's snapped, how he's become even more unhinged since he was last in the oval office. he said of course, he would rule as a dictator on day one. he said there would be a blood bath if he doesn't win this election. there's no better person, no better messenger to drive home these points than president joe biden. you're going to continue to see him make that contrast, but again, he is certainly not going to lose sight of the fact this election is not only about donald trump running as a convicted felon. it's about what joe biden will continue to do for the american people, what his plans are for a second term. what is at stake in this election. he'll continue to make that contrast, both affirmatively in terms of the direction of the country and making it clear the dangers we would see in this country if donald trump stepped foot back in thas white house. it would be incredibly dangerous and there's no better messenger

to make that point than joe biden. >> kitchen tabl issues with a little convicted felon on the side. great to get to talk to you. sarah longwell, i want to talk to you. snapped in 2020, just didn't feel -- it feels strategic. i wonder how you hear it. >> 100%. when i saw this, i said this is smart. this is joe biden saying, hey, look, maybe you voted for this guy in '16, maybe you voted for him in '20, but you have new information now. right? you have new information since then. you didn't know when you voted for him the second time that he was going to incite an insurrection. you didn't know he was going to deny the election results and try to overturn them. you didn't know he said he was going to be a dictator. you want to welcome people into saying, look, i have new information so i have permission to change my mind. i also just want to say one of the things joe biden is doing here that i'm so glad to see, i heard some murmurs from

democrats that was sort of like, should joe biden call him a convict? should he go after him for these things? i was sitting there saying, if this was reversed, if this was republicans making this choice, they would go hammer and tong at their opponent who had been convicted of a crime. of course, you have to go on offense. you have to change the trajectory of this race. you have to make this a referendum on trump. this is getting somewhere. i'm glad to see that it feels like they found their footing on offense. that's where they need to live for this campaign. >> yeah, i often wish that the only piece of the republican party that could sort of live on in this democratic coalition is that fight piece. you know, and i heard it in adrienne today. i didn't necessarily hear it yesterday. we had a person from the campaign on. but it's this, what would the other side do? they would be talking about it 24/7. it doesn't make it right, but there are ways the biden agenda is doing all the things they

talked about. the economy is improving and biden is foexed on it like a laser. our allies, we do have their back. we're standing by ukraine. republicans are playing footsy with pooten, the substance is there, but if you don't grab these opportunities to get on offense and throw the political punches they are gone. and i wonder what are you guys doing with this moment? i saw news of some billboards. >> yes. look, here's what we're doing. we want to make sure that the convict stuff sticks. and so we have our two-time trump voters or former trump voters, they are our messengers, republican voters against trump. we have put billboards up with the faces of a lot of these former trump voters saying i voted for trump before, but i'm not going to vote for a convicted felon because that's a message that we want to drive home. look, i heard the guest prior talking about how biden is the right messenger for this.

let me tell you about offense. offense requires tons of surrogates. this isn't just joe biden's job. this is the entire democratic party's job. this is the democratic voters' job. republicans, what did they do? they would get out there and rally behind trump. this is what everybody needs to be doing so no american misses what's happening now. >> i also wonder, i had mckay coppins on yesterday. you know who knows a lot of european leaders? mitt romney, bob corker, mark milley, john kelly. i mean, i'm not satisfied. i wonder how you feel about a concerted effort to get all those people to say i hear the same things from my allies and friends when i'm on codels because i have been serving in public life for so long, so i'm going to vote for biden. i may not agree with every policy he's for, but this time, trump is running on a promise to

annihilate our allies. where is that piece of this? >> look, you know that i believe there is one of the most important things that needs to happen going forward is for the people who saw something, they need to say something. the members of trump's cabinet who worked with him, who now, and who have gone on background to the atlantic or maybe they have said something here and there. they have a responsibility and a duty to this country. look, i think mitt romney is a wonderful person. i think he's been one of the most stand-up people, you know, in the republican party this entire time, but he does understand the threat that trump poses just as these generals do and these people who work with trump. and their affirmative support for biden is going to matter because that is how you say look, i'm not a democrat, i have never worked for a democrat. i don't vote for democrats, but in this case, i'm going to do it because this guy is so dangerous. and we're going to need them to get there as this goes on because you know they believe that trump is that dangerous.

>> yeah, i mean, i made a list on my sheets yesterday, david, and mcconnell, corker, bolton, haley, romney, thune, portman, all of the people that we once knew. and what has come out in eight years of covering the trump story isn't that they didn't see him exactly as i did and you did and you did. it's that they were political cowards. maybe something worse, but we'll go with that for today. mattis, milley, and kelly have a different, i think, set of barriers. they have some really deeply held views about the military's role in elections and they don't think generals should tell people who to vote for. it's not what sarah's talking about, if you see something say something. they saw everything. what would your approach be for the biden campaign to get these people to make this argument to the country, to their sort of stakeholder groups? >> listen, the partisan distrust

and mistrust is deep. and i think one of the reasons you see caution from the biden campaign is because they have been constantly let down by republicans who refuse to make the ultimate act of patriotism, which is to cross the rubicon and say yes, i'll vote for joe biden. a ought of these political actors, military leaders, former senior staff, whomever they are, feel comfort in having expressed opposition to donald trump but it terrifies them for some reason to say they'll vote for joe biden. >> why? >> i think it's okay to pass personal judgment on people in this moment because it's an act of patriotism they're unwilling to make. i think the reason it's so important and sarah speaks to surrogates, joe biden has an incredibly difficult task this cycle. first and foremost, because he must remain presidential. even those comments last night, there is a line he can't cross. now, as president, he has a duty to remind the american people of a couple things. first, donald trump is a criminal.

i like the word felon, but that's just the type of criminal he is. he's now an adjudicated criminal running for the white house. joe biden, though, has i see three elements he has to always package together in his messaging. the first is he has to play offense on his own policy agenda. what he's doing for education and health care and infrastructure and immigration and reproductive rights and protecting people's right to vote. his agenda is most important. then you have to move to the fitness of donald trump, which is what you heard him talk about last night. donald trump is unfit. that packages into the stakes. what does the future look like if donald trump wins or not. and the stakes is where mitt romney and mattis and mcconnell and others have failed to rally around that seminole moment which is the stakes are too high to suggest that there really isn't a good choice in november. there's a good choice. that good choice is joe biden. >> i think that the most -- i would say two things. i messaged for candidates. it's impossible to get a candidates to carry three

messages anywhere. they don't remember it between backstage and the podium. and this isn't a joe biden thing, it's any candidate. i think there is an appetite in the democratic coalition which delivered him a resounding victory in '24, a relentless conversation about donald trump. he's running to be a dictator, he's running against the press, against the rule of law, against american democracy. >> this is where joe biden as president can talk about that. i'm not suggesting he doesn't, because he actually, following the conviction, i was really curious, how are they going to handle this? because a low blow from the campaign is fine. a low blow from the president feels a little differently. but he has a duty as president, whether it polls well or not, to remind the american people about donald trump's criminality and lack of fitness. i think you're seeing him wade into that message. >> i think blunt is a better way to talk about it. >> donald trump is a criminal. >> it's not negative to call him

a convicted felon. it's blunt, the truth. i have to sneak in a break. still to come, republicans on the hill today in a hearing with merrick garland ramping up the gop's long line of attacks against the justice department. how merrick garland responded to that and the conspiracies being spread about the ex-president's criminal cases which he says are putting thousands of everyday employees at the department in danger. and later in the broadcast, the wheels of justice at work again today. wisconsin becoming state number five to bring felony charges against donald trump's coup plotting allies and their attempts to overturn his 2020 election defeat. we'll get to that story and much more when deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere. organic soil from miracle-gro has grown me the best garden i have ever had.

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donald trump is like he said in his fund-raiser, the first convicted felon to run for the office of president. that has the added benefit of being true. this whole election is going to come down to republicans like me. republicans that are lifelong republicans, conservative in nature but just don't think donald trump is anywhere near fit to have the office of president. it's whether or not we're going to stay at home and let it happen with the weight of gravity or show up and do something about it. a vote for joe biden isn't a vote for anything other than a gop 2.0 if you're a republican like me. if gives us a chance to purge donald trump from our veins as quickly and efficiently as we can, get our party back where we can show up and solve real problems. this court case we watched play out, some were wailing, talking

about whether or not he should have had the charged brought against him or not. you can't deny the facts. he slept with a porn star, he lied about it, he paid people off, he cut secrets deals, he continued to lie all the way through the verdict from the jury and a jury of his peers ruled him guilty. >> there you have it. >> it reminds me, i am reminded of two political adages that i heard very early in my career. the first is, there may not be permanent friends, but there are permanent interests. for all of those who may not support joe biden on a host of other issues, on the matter of maintaining democracy, at least support him on that. right? you may not support him on any other issue, but at least in the context of trying to move our country forward, that is an argument that i would hope the majority of republicans can sink their teeth into as well. leave him after that if that's what it takes, but on this

issue, this is where you need to vote. >> dwroent think that's enough. if you get them to tell the truth, they're where he is, they used to be where he is on russia. republicans used to find putin, mitt romney ran as -- they're where he is on infrastructure. it's so popular, mitch mcconnell got on air force one and went with him. i feel like that isn't aiming far enough or hard enough. i feel like the biden administration can go harder for these voter. >> i also worry about five months, the timing. and i worry about -- i worry about whether or not there are republicans that are actually going to listen to him on a host of other things. i'm laser focused on what he needs to do in the next five months to get republicans to say, and i think that's part of it, partly saying look, there might be other issues we have to come back to the table on. after the election, down the road, absolutely right. but just let's get over this

piece right here. you have donald trump associates in multiple states rigging elections. that's not good for us, but it's certainly not good for you either. again, let's get past this point. i go back to another point i used to hear, bill clinton used to say this a lot. that it's not enough to fire him, they have to hire you. meaning that yes, he should and is appropriately stepping into this moment, joe biden, and he's talking about the conviction, but it's about the states, about making a clear choice, and what he's doing is framing the choice for the voter. not just in talking about how bad donald trump is, but saying yes, these are the things that democrats can offer in this moment. in a way that donald trump could never really do. so i think all of those things need to be in place, and the final point on the surrogates, and i have to invoke the exonerated five former central park five now city council

member yusef salaam who said i wish for donald trump that he has all of the opportunities in this criminal justice system that he never had. and it's such an important point. because, a, it is a little taking the high road and i wish he could do other stuff. but at the same time, it really does call out that very specific and important issue, which is when donald trump says they're treating me like they treat you, no, that's absolutely not true. number one. and number two, it also says there are folks in communities at the local level that have a lot to say, a lot of minds that they could change, a lot of people they can push out to the polls. i hope the campaign really starts to activate those kinds of folks to be able to sort of be those surrogates in the communities. >> let me ask you something else. we talked about your students. i feel like a version of this message needs to be delivered in a very meaningful and authentic way to the democratic coalition, some pockets of the coalition as well to say i know there are

things you think i can do better, and especially around young people and the middle east, but if you want to continue to stand in front of the white house and scream at the top of your lungs that you hate my choices, there's only one person running who will give you the space and right to do that. the other one, last time, tried to invoke the insurrection act when the issue was something else. do you need to have that conversation with parts of the democratic coalition? >> sure. that joe biden will give you the grace and space to grow and be able to accomplish the things you want to accomplish in your life and career economically, but i will say, i have to think about my own sort of political activism. there were six years in my life, that were really critical. jesse jackson runs for president, he loses. but david dinkins andmany other black and latino leaders become mayors of big cities in '89. mandela leaves office or leaves jail in 1990. bill clinton becomes president in 1992, the year of the woman, largely on that rainbow

coalition infrastructure. apartheid ends in 1994. there was a direct action and result from my political activism, and i saw that sort of cause and effect. and i believe that even though the institutions were flawed, racist, and sexist, that if you have the right people in the right positions, it would make all the difference in the world. a lot of voters right now don't even believe that. they don't believe the institutions matter and they want to go in a completely different direction. disruptive politics means a little more. so i think the point is that what we have to do and what i think the democrats can do is say, there are still good people in office. there are people that care about you and here's my track record to prove that. and there are so many -- i go back to yusef salaam, so many examples of that across the country, amplify those voices. joe biden laid the groundwork, amplify the other voices on the ground to say look, institutions matter, the people who run them matter, and here are great examples throughout the party.

>> sarah, how much of the conversation that president biden has to have with the whole country sort of helps pull in the voters that you are expert in, the republican voters against trump, and how much of it -- it seems the bigger he goes, the greater the opportunity to pull everyone in because you make it about us, the country, the crisis the country faces. >> yeah, look, i think that joe biden does have to find a way to kind of, and he did this in 2020 a little bit. he needs to find a way to bring us back to a uniting message. i do think that the biggest coalition in american politics is an anti-trump coalition. and so i am going to be an advocate constantly for, look, and because i hear what everybody is saying but the fact is we have a different race this time. we have two functional incumbents running against each other. our persuadable voters, they tend to be people who don't like either candidate.

they're these center right voters, not democrats, they don't love the last four years of joe biden. but they really dislike donald trump and many of them voted for biden last time giving him the winning coalition. what do you have to do? you have to make this a referendum on trump. that's why surrogates are so important, because look, joe biden is not going to be able to carry this messaging game himself. obviously i care a lot about the center right surrogates coming out and telling the truth, but on the democratic side, josh shapiro and gretchen whitmer and -- there is a huge bench now of serious democratic pragmatists that can appeal to some of these center right voters. i think democrats have to figure out how do you pitch not just joe biden but the party that is behind him, the future that democrats can bring, that is not anathema to building that broader coalition, to bringing in those center right voters. because if the republican party, if its future is donald trump

and tucker carlson and candice owens and these conflict merchants and these fearmongerers, that provides an opportunity for democrats to say, we can build this bigger, broader coalition by putting forward leaders that can attract a lot of different types of people. and democrats have those leaders at their disposal, but i think we need to see them now. one of the things that blows my mind is how much we see of gavin newsom. he's out there being a surrogate. his politics aren't always to my taste, but there are a lot of people who could be doing what he's doing from a surrogate standpoint. >> i mean, i just want to ask one thing you say. this is my gut from campaign work. the largest voting coalition available to biden is an anti-trump coalition. that argues for a ceaselessly blunt and negative conversation about trump running as a criminal, running against the rule of law, running against the media, running against our democracy. and running on being against

choice and abortion. am i close? >> yeah, and look, i don't think joe biden has to do all that. and david jolly was making this point a little bit. i think joe biden should be blunt about trump. i also think joe biden has to sell himself, has to say he's ready to do this job. but that's what the surrogates are for. the surrogates are to unleash 1,000 attack dogs at what the republicans and donald trump are doing. that's what an offense campaign looks like. everybody can't leave this up to joe biden. i would like to see democrats, a lot of people talk about democracy being at stake. i want to see a campaign that feels like democracy is at stake. that is acting like democracy is at stake, that has that level of urgency, and i think that's going to take everybody. >> i completely, completely agree with you. sarah longwell, we benefit so much from your expertise and insights. thank you for starting us off. everyone sticks around. >> still to come, maga republicans using a hearing on

capitol hill today to again make these dangerous accusations of the department of justice, saying it is somehow weaponized against them, republicans. how the united states attorney general responded, and his warning about the impact of their lies when it comes to donald trump's criminal conviction in new york. that's next. that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. control of crohn's means everything to me. ask your gastroenterologist about skyrizi. ♪ control is everything to me ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. life with afib can mean a lifetime of blood thinners. and if you're troubled by falls and bleeds, worry follows you everywhere. ♪♪ over 400,000 people have left blood thinners behind

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agents to do their jobs effectively. in future investigations. i will not be intimidated. and the justice department will not be intimidated. we will continue to do our jobs free from political influence and we will not back down from defending democracy. >> that was the attorney general, merrick garland, on capitol hill today, testifying before the house judiciary committee, defending himself and his department from republicans on the committee who threatened to hold him in contempt for refusing to hand over the audio file of the interview president joe biden had with the special counsel robert hur during the case of his handling of classified documents despite the fact the transcript of the interview is already in their hands and available to the public. attorney general garland used his appearance to push back against a number of false claims by republicans, most prominent was the gop conspiracy theory that somehow merrick garland's department of justice is behind the historic prosecution and

conviction of ex-president donald trump in new york. here's what garland had to say about that. >> it's an attack on the judicial process itself. we do not control the manhattan district attorney. manhattan district attorney does not report to us. the manhattan district attorney makes its own decisions about cases that he wants to bring under his state law. >> former counterintelligence agent peter strzok. something we should talk about some day. sometimes i feel so lucky to get to talk to people like yourself and others, and sometimes i have a pit in my stomach that you're not doing the jobs that you trained to do. but along those lines, merrick garland said the right things. but the toxic conspiracy theories are like heroin or any other toxin that's poisoning the body politic, agitating the right, and priming the pump for sometimes violent acts like what

happened to speaker pelosi's husband. i worry that the pushback to the heroin isn't up to the toxin that's been ingested into the body politic. >> i think that's right. i think it's, one, very important that the attorney general did what he did today in laying out a very firm stand on doj's commitment to the rule of law, the fbi's investigations, and their commitment to the rule of law, and how very damaging it is when republicans and donald trump engage in this sort of behavior. what really struck me was the breadth of what he was talking about. it wasn't just one item. it was across the board. he was talking about the idea of doj controlling the new york prosecution, and of course, immediately after the verdict, we saw the jurors and the judge all across social media being threatened with doxing. it isn't just the threats that donald trump is making that the fbi somehow is out to assassinate him down at mar-a-lago because his attorneys materially omitted words in a court filing. it isn't just the attacks on fbi

field offices in cincinnati or ramming a gate in the fbi atlanta. it isn't just the threats as you mentioned and the attack on paul pelosi, or the threats of judge chutkan. every single aspect of our judicial system is under attack. and it's under attack because donald trump and because the people he is enabling in congress and throughout the right wing ecosphere. >> pete, i also was thinking today as i watched this that it's been going on for so long that when trump first fired comey, i remember even on the right, people were like, whoa. what was that about? and then the memos and those stories had some bipartisan intrigue. he still had captivated devin nunes and all the loons in the house, but there were still some people that were respentive to the idea that the vast majority of people at the fbi and department of justice were public servants doing their

jobs. if you really were talking to a republican telling the truth, they would tell you their gut was most of those people lean center right. the window has moved so far that you now have one normal republicans accusing the fbi of trying to assassinate donald trump when they went to mar-a-lago on a court approved search for stolen classified material. how do you begin the process of moving the window back to something resembling normal reality? >> you re-elect joe biden and get donald trump out of the american political scene forever. i think you look at senator marco rubio. somebody who was extraordinarily a supporter of national defense, of law enforcement, who is joining a critic of trump, who led the senate intel committee saying russia attacked our elections in 2016. he was willing to say that then, and now he's even engaging in these wild conspiracy theories. i don't think we are in a situation today as long as donald trump is in the

presumptive and eventual nominee for the republican candidacy that we're going to get a shift back. it is going to take a solid defeat or god forbid what happens if he's re-elected, but i don't see a way we're going to shift sanity back into the republican party or what remains of the republican party until after donald trump is no longer the primary player in that space. >> i think the important thing, i think what the right and we have to sneak in a break, but i think what i want to ask the two of you, what the right would like the electorate to believe is that it's all in motion. there's nothing we can do. the exciting piece of this is pete is absolutely right. the only way to turn this around if it doesn't sit well with you, the idea that every man and woman in the fbi is somehow corrupt or politicized which is ludicrous, is to make sure that people know they can vote and they can vote against it and reject it. we'll have that conversation on the other side of a short break. .

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we all need to speak more nicely at each other. i arrived in a different place. the way to heal the nation is to defeat republicans. handily defeat them and make them a permanent minority party in the united states. they just win the electoral college. but you cannot create equity and expect healing between the parties when one side engages in conspiracy theories, attack on law and order, and is willing to strip people of their fundamental rights. that's a movement that has to be beaten and beaten badly at the ballot box. i think pete's exactly right. the way we heal the nation is we beat republicans. >> what does that look like? >> you know, maybe because i have been upset about this for so long, i'm a little more cynical in the sense that it's going to last a generation. it's 30 years before we can change the supreme court or we can have any other types of institutional changes in the ways that i think we need to

move the country forward. however, it is interesting because the biggest -- the second biggest voting bloc in the state of new york is no longer republicans. it's independents because there are a lot of voters that don't feel connected. i understand democrats are part of that too, but they don't feel connected to the parties in the way they used to. i think one of the messages joe biden has to bring and his surrogates is that this election is also about electing people who want to provide the guardrails that you really need to keep this government running and running properly. because what we're seeing unfold is all the guardrails being taken down. not just little by little but in big chunks. and in ways that are extraordinarily dangerous for this country. and i think that's what needs to get hammered home. hammered hom. how easy it is to take those guardrails down and how vulnerable we are as a result of that. >> you know, pete, rachel did a great opening a couple mondays ago about the rule of law.

she said it is mortal and it needs to be protected. i thought about you, jim comey, i thought about all the people that were never protected. i know that everyone had a different experience and a different collision with trump but that's because we live on earth 1. on earth 2, they wanted to destroy everyone and anyone that might have investigated and tried to get to the bottom of trump's campaigns, coordination with, maybe even unwittingly with russia. right? so the lookback with the benefit of distance is that on earth 1 where we're so married to facts. we sort of push and we prod and we want to get to the bottom of everything, the right reflexively attacks everything real and just and fair and in the pursuit of truth. i wonder how the fact-based folks band together and defend the people pursuing the truth? >> well, nicole, i think you keep speaking the truth. at the end of the day, my focus came from rural north carolina

and rural wisconsin. deeply maga territory. at the end of the day, they are fundamentally decent people. i hope and believe that all these folks in america, i'm not talking about the extreme maga folks. i'm talking about who were once main stream republicans. they want something decent. and donald trump is a fundamentally indecent man. and i cannot help but hope that during the election. we've got d-day coming up. tell 80th anniversary. donald trump's refusal to go to a world war i cemetery because it was raining. there are thing when people look at law and order and national security. they look at what he did with national security and the secrets at mar-a-lago and talking to any number of people. they want somebody decent. and i think to sarah's earlier point on an earlier segment, get hammering home the fundamental indecency of donald trump. >> just the facts.

thank you so much for this conversation, all of you. up next for us, president joe biden taking action today on another issue that is important in the country at a policy level, and politics. the issue of immigration after months of republican inaction. we'll bring you that story next. . ( ♪♪ ) my name is jaxon, and i have spastic cerebral palsy. it's a mouthful. one of the harder things is the little things that i need help with:

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border acting on an issue after taking marching orders from expresident donald trump. the order kicked in as a result of illegal crossings at the border. the move is being described as the most aggressive and restrictive move by a democratic president in recent history. speaking to the pressure joe biden is under to act on the issue ahead of the november election. this is, of course, in spite of the fact that his republican opponent actively worked publicly to undermine and kill a bipartisan immigration and border bill all because it would have been good for president joe biden politically to solve this issue. when we come back, state prosecutors once again making news today by criminally charging those in donald trump's orbit for their fake elector's scheme to try to overturn the 2020 election which trump lost. much more straight ahead. more d [sniff] still fresh.

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at the wisconsin department of justice, we are committed to protecting the integrity of our electoral process. this morning we filed a criminal complaint in the circuit court charging three defendants in connection with an alleged conspiracy to have electors who were not dual appointed presidential electors meet and cast votes in wisconsin in december 2020. >> it's 5:00 in new york. the wheels of justice grind slowly but they keep on turning, don't they? that was wisconsin attorney general today announcing criminal charges against three men connected to the expresident with fentanyl forgery for their roles in the fake electors' scheme to help donald trump stay in office after he lost the 2020 presidential election. the men charged are the former trump campaign attorney, mike roman who served as the trump campaign's head of election day operations, and the architect of the fake elector scheme, kenneth

chezboro. you might remember him from other cases in other states where he's been charged like the spraug rico indictment. how did that go? here's a quick reminder. >> you understand the remaining charge against you. >> i do. you've heard the rights that you would give up by going forward with this plea. do you still wish to wave those rights and proceed? >> yes. are you pleading guilty because there is a factual basis that supports this remaining charge. >> yes. which charge. >> plead guilty. it said right there in an open court of law that he agreed with the factual basis of the guilty plea. today's indictment out of wisconsin charged the three men for their involvement in getting a slate of electors to sign that trump had won the election in wisconsin which he did not. in response to the charges, wisconsin's democratic governor had a very simple and quick

response. quote, good. today attorney general call stressed this investigation is ongoing. he was asked about whether or not charges could be in the future for the expresident. >> as i said, i'm not going to speak to any specific individual but the investigation is ongoing and the decisions we make will be based on the facts and the law. not on the identity of any individual or their role. >> so while you have the federal criminal indictments against donald trump, especially those around the january 6th deadly insurrection and his role in trying to overturn joe biden's victory, those have been delayed perhaps indefinitely should he prevail by the united states supreme court. at a minimum they're unlikely to take place before voters go to the poll in november. it would appear today from where we sit that it will be up to the states to hold those accountable who committed election interference on trump's behalf. wisconsin joins a handful of other states who have already done this.

michigan, georgia, nevada and arizona. all the states have already brought charges against those involved in the fake electors' plots. in new york we just saw the guilty verdict reached in the criminal trial of the expresident for his efforts in attempting to interfere in the 2016 election by covering up money paid to a porn star to keep her quiet. it's where we start the hour ryan riley is here with us. plus u.s. former attorney harry is here and msnbc columnist and contributor, charlie is here. i start with you on the reporting of the story. >> yeah, this is sort of a trend that we've seen in these various states. even though the donald trump case has been put on hold, the federal case. there's a lot of overlap. a lot of the focus in that jack smith indictment is really on this fake electors scheme and all the individuals involved in

it. you will have mike roman certainly coming into play there. so this is a little bit of a way for this to move forward in the state courts even though the supreme court is waiting to come back with a decision about where exactly absolute immunity trump's claim falls there. >> to the ryan's, to the point, this is from jack smith's indictment. quote, under the plan the submission these would create a controversy and position the vice president presiding on january 6th as president of the senate to supplant legitimate electors with the fake electors and certify him as president. the plan capitalized on ideas presented in memoranduma drafted by co-conspirator five.

the fake electors plot is the head of the jack smith indictment. >> that's right. and this one in particular has the mad cap feet that you are he wanted to put it in his hands. most of the others have charged the phony electors have charged them. here they weren't charged and presumably they'll be cooperating witnesses. they went for the big guns at the national level, although both are from wisconsin. this grew out of a lawsuit by the true electors who sued in the wisconsin electoral commission. he quickly settled as did he in georgia and gave over all the

documentation. it's that documentation that is featured in the indictment today and that essentially formed the base for the indictment. he has twice rolled over. he may not have the where withal to really defend. if he hoped it would keep him from getting charged again, it hasn't. now there's really no other big state left. pennsylvania had a little contingent point if the courts rule against us. so these are the big ones and they've all come home to roost. >> how does it work? for chezboro, he's pleaded guilty to the same crime in another state. does that get fire walled out of wisconsin? does that enter into evidence in wisconsin? how does that work? >> so first of all, it entered directly in because that's how he came to be cooperating here. but no. to the extent, what he did in

georgia and michigan, it's relevant. that will be put on, part of the evidence presented. if he goes forward. my best guess is that he won't. it is totally good ground for the charges. >> charlie, this is one of the fake electors, andrew, he's not been charged. here he was describing on 60 minutes how the fake electors plot would work. >> we got specific advice that these documents were meaningless unless the court said they had meaning. >> you were deciding to sign this as an elector and getting the others to sign the document based on a court challenge that you yourself don't believe has legitimacy. >> i wouldn't say it doesn't have legitimacy. that's different than not personally agreeing with it. >> you personally don't believe

the legitimate votes in wisconsin should be tossed out. yet you are signing a document in support of a lawsuit which is alleging just that. >> and if i didn't do that, and if the court did throw out those votes, it would have been solely my fault that trump wouldn't have won wisconsin. >> beautiful kids. good. good. i'm going to blame you if they don't do it. >> can you imagine the repercussions on myself, my family if it was me? andrew, who prevented donald trump from winning wisconsin? >> so i just wanted to play that on the other end of the criminal conviction of donald trump where all the evidence was mob adjacent conduct. and there he is at the podium. i could listen to that over and over again. beautiful kids, andrew. good, good. i'm going to blame you, andrew, if they don't do it.

"it" was overturning the results. >> yeah. this is one of the reasons why i don't think chesboro will be contesting it. this is based on emails that he turned over himself. and the documentation. here, by the way, this is the fake electors certification that they all signed. it is a complete forgery. it was signed by andrew who called himself chairperson of the electoral college of wisconsin which he was not. he's a former executive of the state republican party who is clearly now cooperating, i think, with prosecutors here. but this is really aimed at the heart of what happened in wisconsin. jim troopis is a major republican player. he used to be a judge. very involved in republican politics. i think another name we need to throw into the mix is senator

ron johnson who in fact knew about this, encouraged the legislature to overturn the election. on january 6th, as we know, he was the individual who was supposed to put these forged documents in the hampblds mike pence. mike pence and his staff wisely, courageously chose not to take them. but ron johnson was very involved in this entire plot, and had it played out the way conspirators hoped, you would have had the senior senators for the state of wisconsin passing on these forged documents to the vice president to overturn the election. >> pick up on that. why hasn't ron johnson been charged? either in the state or by doj? >> that's a tough question. there are so many people who are involved in this scheme. you know, i think it really would, had this trial gone forward in march on the jack smith cases, we would have heard

a ton about this. for example in detroit, at the end of last year, there was this real focus in this one filing from jack smith's team about this sort of chaos that unfolded at the tcf center in detroit. this idea that the trump campaign itself was sort of pushing for riots. so long ago, we don't often think about it. it was kind of a preview of what happened on january 6th. he had people pounding on the windows. what happened is the republican party and the apparatus in michigan had summoned all these individuals who had no clue what they were talking about in the election to detroit. to the tcf center there. all of them thought there was a massive fraud happening there. it was their job to shut it down. creating that chaos was really a part of it. that's what this broader scheme was about. creating chaos on january 6th even if wasn't directly riotous. just creating a spectacle on the hill so there was this challenge, this idea that joe

biden wasn't the legitimate president was really what they were trying to focus on, nicole. >> specifically, heidi przybilla was out there live. we all saw this with our own eyes. my pushback, my follow-up would be for you, harry litman. what the justice department i think is asking us to do is not believe our eyes. not believe what we saw play out on live tv. not believe the deadly slow-motion insurrection on january 6th. and what they are talking about, they're still members of congress in good standing with no cloud of investigation over any of them. >> i don't disagree. so there is a really big cohort of members who were involved and should be and possibly are but we have no indication, being investigated, probably starting with scott perry. one whose fingerprints are

really strong. as charlie says, johnson was going to be part of this. so i don't know what the plans are. i don't expect they'll get a lock and they've been focusing on trump and his cohorts. to date, they are really -- just think of all the calls mark meadows got on the 6th itself. it's a big part of history, of the whole crimes. they have not to date been held accountable. this shows the wheels of justice grind slowly. if you read the indictment, they're talking about, we'll put this in if the court says so but then it goes away. that's what makes it a clear forgery. i agree. there is a whole legislative aspect here that we have not even touched the surface of. >> charlie, we use your voice on the national corruption of the republican party. but you were of and from wisconsin. just take us through the story

in your state, in wisconsin. what happened? >> the election was decided by around 20,000 votes which seems to be the margin of all elections in wisconsin and even former republican governor scott walker said yeah, joe biden won. he had lost by a similar margin in 2018 and he didn't contest this election. but immediately, this conspiracy began. i have to admit, at the time in real-time, i did not understand how serious it was. the notion that you would in fact throw out the votes of millions of wisconsinites, a? united states senator would actually want to wipe out the votes of his own constituents was just inconceivable at the time. but they pushed this. unfortunately, election trutherism has not -- i mean, election denialism has not died in wisconsin. you had trump's forces push this in the state assembly to spend

more than $1 million on a completely bogus investigation. he ended up firing the guy. he now faces the speaker of the state assembly, faces a recall from pro-trump forces who believe that he is not aggressive enough in pushing back on the facts of the election. so this is really left deep wounds in the republican party. and this indictment, i think, will exacerbate that. having said that, there was a lot of frustration among democrats in wisconsin that it took so long. there is a lot of criticism of attorney general call that he did not move more quickly on all of this. now, of course, it's on the table. and a lot of very tough questions will have to be asked to some very, very prominent republicans, including one of the fake electors who still sits on the wisconsin election commission. and he has not resigned. so you have questions for

johnson, questions for people on the elections commission and then of course, you have questions for the republican dominated legislature. whether or not they'll continue carrying water for donald trump's election lies. >> you know, i know you're tracking this for us. you have nevada, six republicans have been charged. arizona, 11. i think that's the most. in wisconsin, the three from today. michigan has charged 16. georgia just charged 18 including trump. and fani willis has, there are a bunch of guilty pleas including mr. cheseboro's. is there anything that the doj could charged the unindicted co-conspirators? >> i think it all depends on what happens with the election. we're on hold now. you had that fast-track case they brought against trump even though they were these unindicted co-conspirators.

in reality, that would have meant it could go for years. if you add too many defendants, this would extend it way too long and the priority was donald trump, obviously, the person at the top of this scheme. so that's a possibility but it all depends on what happens in november. i think if that trial gets back on track, you have a little time left in the statute of limitations when you're really talking about, i guess it would be late 2025, when the statute, early 2026, when the statute might expire on those underlying charges. i don't think that the other underlying co-conspirators will be taking any comfort here. when we talk about the "60 minutes" quote, it's an ongoing thing. the idea of all these threats. mike fanone is getting threats on a regular basis. all these individuals, that is just motivating, really a scary thing for a lot of people speaking out. >> say more about the threats,

ryan riley. >> yeah. it just hit everyone. they're going after judges, they're going after the judge, after prosecutors, michael cohen was on the air last night saying that there are pizzas that showed up to his home because somebody found his address. text messages and emails were showing up to all of his family members. this is an ongoing thing. it is something we've been monitoring on the web where you have this targeting of any individual who is running up against donald trump. it is an ongoing thing that will be really important to keep an eye on. that's what was really missed in the lead up to january 6th. just this notion that all of these, this magnitude of the threat was really the issue there. we think of these as one-offs. that one crazy person would do this. on january 6th you had all these individuals who were motivated by the same thing who showed up and did harm to multiple dozens

of cops that day targeting members of congress, nicole. >> we have to put a pin in it and maybe tomorrow have all the feedback. the tactics are swatting, witness tampering, some of the docs say the georgia prosecutors were offshore to russia. you had merrick garland on the hill today. i think some people would have loved to have heard about a more aggressive prosecution strategy for people who resort to these tactics that are flagrant acts of witness intimidation and harass many of anyone involved in the legal effort to hold donald trump accountable. i love asking on live tv if you're free same time tomorrow. it's very hard to say no to me. we'll ask you off the air as well. thank you for starting us off. when we come back, the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit brought by 20 texas women challenging the strict ban on abortion.

health care when her very much wanted pregnancy. plus the behind the scenes story of how we got here to a post roe america in which we all live now. a brand new book "the fall of roe." e.

i keep telling my baby that i'm so sorry. i'm so sorry that i couldn't help her. she had no mercy. there was no mercy. >> my parents and josh's parents flew in from indiana because they were afraid that it might be the last time they would see me. >> i don't feel safe to have children in texas anymore. i know that it was very clear that my health didn't really matter. but my daughter's health didn't really matter. and that's heartbreaking. >> don't look away. trump's reelected, that will be the life of every woman in america if they have their way. heartbreaking testimony about the nightmare that is happening right now. that's life right now in texas. under a near total ban on abortions. that was amanda and fellow plaintiffs recounting their experiences, losing their babies and then being denied emergency

abortion care when their pregnancies became nonviable. as part of the lawsuit to get the state of texas to clarify how close a woman's death may be. on friday the all republican supreme court said i don't think so. providing no clarification. the supreme court, blame the women's doctors. you risk life in prison and fines up to $100,000 and having their medical licenses taken away if they perform abortions in texas, for not providing them with care. they said it is their fault. the state supreme court held that there's no right to an abortion for a pregnancy where the baby will not survive. as painful as such circumstances are, the law does not authorize abortions for diagnosed fetal conditions absent a life-threatening complication to the mother. texas has been at the forefront

of the antiabortion fervor and the movement's war on reproductive health care. last week the texas republican party which controls all statewide elected offices and has a super majority in the state legislature endorse ad platform that called for abortion to be charged as a homicide. in texas that means the death penalty is a possible punishment. this is happening right now. joining our conversation, amanda is the lead mayor in the texas abortion ban lawsuit. what do you do on this suit next? is there anywhere else to appeal these facts and this ban? >> that's a good question. first of all, thank you so much for having me back. it's a pleasure to be here even though the circumstances are not super happy this time. so as far as our suit, it feels like it's the end, right? there were 22 of us who were

named in the suit and only a handful of us were even mentioned by name in the supreme court's decision. and only one of us was found to have standing to continue the suit. and will that person is a physician, not a patient. and you know, i will leave it to my brilliant lawyers with the center for reproductive rights on what's next and their legal strategy. for those of us who are patient and who i will still say were harmed, it feels like the end. i just don't know when the supreme court tells you, you have no standing, that there is anything else you can do. and i think that's exactly the point. what are we supposed to do now in texas? how do we possibly have any recourse? this is still happening. >> i think about you and i think about the baby you lost, your daughter willow who you wanted so desperately. and i feel like there is a failure to focus, right?

we live in this post covid sort of untreated collective ptsd where we can't focus on any one thing that hurts for too long because we're all still dealing with our own whatever. i wonder how you feel on the campaign trail. it feels like when you're there and people are focused on the story, you cannot look away. this could be anyone. this could be any woman, any one of our sisters, any one of our daughters. how does it feel out on the campaign trail? >> that's a good question. it feels like a lot. you know, on the one hand, it's really hard because like i said, this is still happening. not just in texas but in more and more places as more and more of these draconian bans are being put in place across the country, specifically in the south. so every time we're out and we're on the campaign trail and we're telling our stories, inevitably people want to share their stories with us. and i will, of course, listen to every single person who wants to share but it is heart-breaking.

it is gut-wrenching to know this is happening to so many people every day. it is very motivating. people are still really fired up about this issue. people are putting in the work. aware seeing folks start to knock on doors. we're seeing phone banks. people are dome it aing their time and their money to this issue and to this campaign because folks across the country want to see reproductive justice restored and protected. and the only person who will do that is president joe biden. it is a little bit of everything. i do remain hopeful. >> your voice and your story is so vital, so important. you are uniquely powerful in the way you tell it. i mean, you're sort of getting at it here. i'm wondering what that is taking out of you and your family. >> i would be lying if i said every day was easy. it's not easy. but there is the most important thing in the world to me right

now. so i will continue on this campaign trail and doing whatever i can to raise awareness. hopefully get votes. and i'll be doing this until november. i think i've told you this before. it is exhausting. it puts me to bed at night but at the same time it is the thing that gets me out of bed in the morning. i don't think there is anything more crucial going on than this issue. i feel a very strong responsibility to continue this charge and continue this fight regardless of what happened with our lawsuit. i will still be here fighting for as long it is a takes. >> amanda, you always have a chair at our table, whether it is virtually or here in the studio. and do us a favor. i would love to hear what you're hearing and what you're, i know you sort of open your arms and you take in all this. i would love to know what you're taking in on the campaign trail and projecting out if that ever feels like the right thing to

do. please come back and see us again. >> absolutely. i'm always happy to come back. >> thank you for speaking out. when we come back, we'll turn to how we got here inside the deliberate operation by the right wing republicans in america to dismantle five decades of precedent and gut. ndt (restaurant noise) [announcer] introducing allison's plaque psoriasis. she thinks her flaky gray patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. allison! over here! otezla can help you get clskin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing otezla for over a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it.

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decades and decades they've been praying. and now those prayers have been answered through the generations of americans in the pro-life movement as a candidate in 2016, i promise to nominate judges and justices who would stand up for the original meaning of the constitution, and who would honestly and faithfully interpret the law as written. thanks to the courage found within the united states supreme court, this long, divisive issue will be decided by the states, and by the american people. >> that was donald trump, of course. that was him importantly in june of 2022. the day after the decision celebrating and taking credit for his singular role in taking away constitutional rights from generations of women for the first time ever. it's trump's doing.

trump's hand-picked justices on the supreme court who were held to a litmus test on this issue who were responsible for overturning roe. the decision was a product of years of maneuvering the far right christian nationalist activists who made their way into the mainstream of republican politics under trump. it is a story that our next guests explore in their new book, "the fall of roe, the rise of a new america." they write this. a new generation of right-wing activists began to gain strength even as the previous religious of their christian values declined in a changing manager. methodically and secretly, an elite strike force of christian lawyers and power brokers orchestrated a campaign to end abortion rights and re-make american womanhood. the result was a strategic topdown takeover at every level of american life. the opponents didn't see what was coming until it was far too late. the story of the fall of roe is quite literally the story of the

next generation of the nation. what is america becoming? joining us now, two top "new york times" journalists. the author of the new book, "the fall of roe, the rise of a new america." thank you for being here. this is the first and best read of the election cycle and the most important putting all in one place what has happened. i love this articulation and explanation of what happened. i obviously worked in put possibles whenner the extreme. is on the issues were kept on the room because it was unelectable. 93% of americans opposed the bans. 87% opposed the ban that's eliminate bans for rape and incest and that's where this republican party has gone. tell me how this happened. >> well, it is really so meaningful to hear you say that. part of what we did in this book was create the first narrative of what we've seen to calling the final decade.

roe era. what we see is we start from the point you're talking about. it seemed like these, it was after obama's re-election in 2012. it seemed like abortion, being against abortion rights was a losing cause for the republican party and the republican party was ready to cast those social conservatives out or at least minimize their role. they clawed back through a very strategic and tactical amassing of power in state legislatures, in state courts. they attached themselves to the trump campaign. followed that into the white house and then through a little bit of a struggle, the biggest prize at all which was the three supreme court justices. they just kept chipping away and chipping away at a massive power until this thing that seemed impossible for generations of american families was possible. >> you guys write about that, too. that some of the power is the surprise attack. the other is the reshuffling,

right? the people that were out of the room are suddenly in the room because donald trump doesn't care about anything or anyone. he just wants everyone to want avatar what they've been looking for. >> it's true. in the antiabortion movement, they have become experts over the years for half a century of leaning in at every moment because the cause was just so important to them. for so many, it really had some deep spiritual roots in their conservative christian values about womanhood, family, marriage, all of these things. and so at every opportunity when democrats and others are used to thinking in political cycles, right? two years, four years, they thought in generations, they took every small little chance. it ended up feeling like a deluge to the outsiders. all of these laws. all of these changes in the

courts. but it also obscured then what all of those little things can add up to. and it can really be monumental change. and it contributed for the left to what we talk about. this broad sense of denial, right? it's hard to understand what is going on. the book talks about what is the power of belief versus the power of denial, and how does that function in society and what is the big, big impact for generations of families to come? >> and the thing that i love is it has the long arc. if you can mobilize everyone who opposes overturning roe tomorrow, you still can't change life for the american woman for perhaps another generation. >> right. the abortion rights movement was focusing on what you're talking about. building popular support, destigmatizing the procedure, throwing out these terms like safe, legal and rare, in favor of a new language that would get more cultural acceptance.

you began to see abortion show up in plot lines. gray's anatomy and juno and others. what the right was doing, what the antiabortion movement was doing was amassing power. amassing power in the courts, in the supreme court, amassing power in the state legislatures. and that has really made it, they were able to achieve this victory without winning the majority of popular support. the majority of americans supported roe in some form. some kind of legalized federal abortion rights and continue to support that in some form. in fact those numbers have grown stronger. but the right was able to accomplish this regardless of that. >> everyone reads the politics. the political sleeping giant that has been awoken, i don't think people grasped that. i remember being on shows and i am, i don't think you're going to pick up everyone who doesn't want the sex they have that may result in unwanted pregnancy to be charged.

i don't think a poll will answer that question. >> such an important point. one of the big things people sometimes overlook with this issue is yes, it is about when and whether a woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy. but for so many women, and some men, too, this is about something far deeper and far more symbolic. it gets at morality and religion and actually, the very definition of what a woman sees as her place in the american experiment that we're all engaged in. so the symbolic impact of this goes so far beyond in terms of the political issue than just the laws. how many weeks you can do this or not do this. that kind of emotional connection i think is really what continues to make it such a motivator in politics. as you point out, it is really hard to capture in polling. >> it is impossible not to have an opinion about it, if you have sex, if you've had sex, if you have a daughter, if you have a sister. it is so universal and it doesn't need to be explained by

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tell me about the role, the political, the inability to bend to the fact that this is a reality for every woman. how do you break through here? >> well, for 50 years, the issue kind of operated one way. it was republicans who see it as a cause in general terms about we're the party of life. you remember all the language. but the granular details about that were hard for anyone to grasp. as we talked, so many people in this book, hundreds of interviews. it was over and over, absolutely nobody thought, it was impossible to conceive that this kind of right that had been the foundation of how so many americans, every american builds their families in some way or another. this is just the background noise. so once it really actually took as we document, even for the abortion rights activists who were trying to sound an alarm on this. even in their communities, it

took actually the right following for there to be this kind of change. as you were saying, the politics shifted so quickly. and now we're seeing again every day, it seems, democrats have this issue on their side. and it is just a completely new world for how politics is operating in a presidential election. >> and no one has adjusted yet. not the people who do my jobs every job or your job. we've never been here before. i would say having worked for republican who's were pro-life, it was safe to be pro-life because it was never going to happen. so you could be for a culture of life because it was never going to be the case that a woman couldn't access the morning after pill. that a woman with a nonviable pregnancy about to die wouldn't be able to receive health care. what the book takes you through, the story is about the most extreme radicalized antiabortion people taking the steering

wheel. and i wonder how you think our politics will have to rumble with that. >> well, part of what happened here, as you point out, republicans and democrats, too. this was more on the republican side. never had to deal with the lived reality of this issue. they never had to answer questions about what this all actually meant. what does it mean, what actually constitutes a medical exception as you were talking about in the segment before ours. what does it mean if a 10-year-old gets raped and impregnated? what do we do in that situation? now the country and all these politicians are plunged into this very messy debate about these really intimate, really sort of in some cases, quite upsetting issues. that's where the upsetting issues, and that's where the country is and discussing. turns out when you ask people whether you have to carry that baby to term and birth that baby the answer is resounding no, but it was easy to sort of paper over that with the political

terms we had all used for so long that didn't touch on any kind of those lived realities, and now that's gone. every state has to negotiate those realities and every politician has to negotiate those realitiesch. >> what we saw too was a movement outside of politics, trying to figure out -- they weren't part of the establishment. actually we start the book in 2012 when the leaders of the anti-abortion movement thought they were getting kicked out permanently. they thought president obama's re-election meant they lost. so seeing how a minority in this case a conservative christian group learned how to pull the levers of power to change a culture that was moving rapidly against them is one of the big lessons from this book. you can think it's easy for cultural change to happen first and there's this net it trickles down into our politics and our

law. but actually what the story of the fall of roe showed is the opposite can be true and it's actually the policy, the law that puts these systems in place to change american culture. >> and i think it's going to tech tonically change american politics. you guys have to come back and when you deal with politics you deal with leonard leo. i think the next conversation has to deal with the next phase of that, which is the legal changed the cultural which i think is on the precipice of changing the political. >> the fall of roe, right, wasn't the end. this was the beginning of a broad effort we talk about in the book for sweeping cultural exchange to really roll back the entire sexual revolution. that's make america great again in the eyes of this. >> we've run out of time today but you have to come back. it's in their opinion. they pulled the curtain back on

their own grand plan. it is the most important book that's been written yet about the election we're about to have. so i hope you'll become fixtures at this table in helping us understand what's happening in this country and around this issue. thank you for writing this. thank you for being here to talk about this. i hope it's the first of many conversations. >> thank you for having us. >> of course. the book is called the fall of roe, the rise of new america is out today. we'll be right back. new americ out today. we'll be right back. but this is a not flash. for moderate to severe vasomotor symptoms due to menopause... ...veozah is the first and only prescription treatment that directly blocks a source of hot flashes and night sweats. with 100% hormone-free veozah... ...you can have fewer hot flashes... ...and more not flashes. veozah reduces the number and severity of hot flashes day and night.

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as the united states supreme court nears the end of its term with more than 30 cases pending and questions swirling on the appearance of partisan affiliations and affinities on the part of the justice, politico's reporting chief justice john roberts and justices samuel alito and ketanji brown jackson were all in attendance for last night's supreme court historical society 50th anniversary dinner. if you're unfamiliar with that, it is a non-profit whose stated mission is to, quote, preserve the court's history and educate the public about the court's importance in american life. its donors, however, seem to keep finding themselves with matters before the court itself. according to "the new york times" investigation last year, 60% of identified contributions came from corporations, special-interest groups, or lawyers and law firms that argued cases before the supreme court.

politico's also reporting that before the dinner members elected the society's leaders among those re-elected to a three-year term as trustee none other than harlan crow. we'll keep an eye on that story. another break for us. we'll be right back. t story. another break for us we'll be right back. these days everyone is staring at screens, scanning the news, and watching their spending. good vision is more important than ever, but so especially now is saving. that's why america's best includes a free eye exam when you buy two pairs of glasses for just $79.95, that's a savings of at least sixty nine bucks. two pairs for $79.95. includes a free exam. that's not just a better deal, it's america's best. book an exam online today at america's best.com. today, at america's . beverage companies,... ...our bottles might still look the same...

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