the last thing before we go tonight, remembering our dear friend, been white, a frequent guest on this show and my 9:00 a.m. show, long time cnbc contributor ben white has died after a brief illness. he was just 52 years old. ben was a truly good man, a proud father and accomplished reporter who worked at political, the new york times and messenger. he shared the news and reminded us of how he lived as a family man, a huge sports fan rooting for the yankees and sadly for him, for many years, the commanders. during covid, ben was a voice of reason for us talking about the real impacts of shutdowns on society and the economy. i have the honor of being on television with him over 100

times over the years, and every time he joined us, he helped us achieve our main goal, to get better and smarter. that was easy for him. ben white was the very best. i will forever be grateful for the knowledge he shared with us, bought more than anything, for his friendship. this is a hard and competitive business and having a friend in this business like ben was a gift and i will treasure our friendship forever. our condolences go out to his entire family and all those who are grateful to know and love him. thank you, ben. i will miss you and on that note, i wish you all a very safe and good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks at nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow.

the republican party's presidential front runner was convicted by a jury of his peers on 34 felony counts. that is the reality. the republican party must now grapple with it. if they were into reality. so, that's an issue. what makes this all even more difficult for the gop is that trumps conviction has exactly 0 to do with president biden. trump was convicted in a state case brought by a new york city prosecutor who does not report to president biden. he is facing another 10 criminal charges from another local prosecutor in georgia who does not report to president biden. even the two federal cases against trump were brought by an independent special counsel who neither takes orders from nor coordinates with president

biden. so, donald trump has reacted the way he traditionally does when reality does not fit his preferred narrative. he lies about it. he claims without evidence that president biden is the one who is really pulling the strings. >> these are all biotin trials. >> these are all biden cases. this is using the justice department to go after your political opponent. his weaponizing law enforcement for election interference. >> trump has repeated some version of that lie over and over again for the past two years but now he is his party's presumptive nominee so every elected republican in congress must now attach himself or herself to that line no matter what reality dictates and today we saw exactly what that looks like when attorney general

merrick garland testified before the republican-led house judiciary committee at a hearing ostensibly about oversight of the justice department. >> for the first time in american history we do have a presidential administration that is working to put its opponent in jail. >> you are intentionally allowing the department and the agents therein to engage in political prosecution. >> the law we have seen against former president trump will do great damage beyond our time in public assist service. >> at one point in history republicans used to just excuse trumps lies or pretend they didn't hear him. no longer. they have taken a knife to any tether that still binds them to reality and are now just floating away into the fact- free universe of donald trump like balloons or seagulls in a stiff wind. and, it is not just a hard-line wing of the party anymore. this was a so-called moderate from the state of new jersey trying to take a shot at state prosecutors fani willis and

alvin bragg. >> he ran for office saying he was going to put donald trump in jail. alvin bragg and again the prosecutor in fulton county, georgia. they ran on that and that is wrong. >> the congressman directed those comments to attorney general merrick garland but again, merrick garland has no connections to the prosecutors in georgia and manhattan, fani willis and alvin bragg and whatever reservations about elected prosecutors attempting to criminally investigate members of the party, he was making that argument while defending this guy. >> she should be locked up i tell you right now. she should be locked up. she should. lock them up you should lock them up. lock up the bidens. lock up hillary. >> donald trump more than any

other politician is literally famous for wanting to jail his political opponents, but over the weekend trump tried to write that moment out of history. >> hillary clinton i didn't say lockup. we won and i said pretty openly i said all right, and just relax. >> i didn't say lock her up. i know it was a long 27 seconds ago but here it is again. >> she should be locked up, tell you right now. she should be locked up. she should. >> i should also note here that trumps claim that he gave up trying to prosecute hillary clinton after he won the election is also very much a lie. we know from special counsel robert miller's report that trump was fixated on the idea of prosecuting clinton. oh, but

that whole thing, that whole thing has been wiped from republican memory. here is what congressman jason smith told conservative media today while merrick garland was still testifying. >> attorney general garland is not acting like the attorney general of the united states. he's acting like joe biden's personal attorney. well, that's not how it is. >> okay, so as congressman smith was accusing merrick garland of acting like president biden's personal attorney, merrick garland's justice department was delivering opening arguments in the criminal trial of joe biden's adult sign -- son, hunter biden.

if that is the kind of service you get from your personal attorney, maybe you should get a new personal attorney. for the record, in case your memory has become untethered to reality, donald trump spent two years complaining that his first attorney general jeff sessions was not acting enough like his personal attorney, then trump fired sessions and heil -- hired bill barr spent the rest of the term acting like trumps personal attorney but according to republicans, merrick garland is the one doing the president's bidding. the thing is republicans are now realizing it is hard to claim you are the victim of a rigged justice system when their presidential candidate has spent his whole presidential career trying to rig the justice system. merrick garland, for his part, was not taking any of the bait. >> i will not be intimidated, and the justice department will not be intimidated. we will continue to do our jobs free from political influence, and we will not back down from defending democracy. >> joining us now are former u.s. senator and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill and new york times reporter katie benner. claire, it is like trump claims biden is an enfeebled sudden but then also simultaneously a

political public mastermind rigging the justice system. >> yeah, he can't manage to cover up a payment to a adult film star but joe biden is capable of having fingers everywhere in the justice department and pushing livers. right now the justice department is prosecuting a democratic congressman, a sitting democratic congressman, a sitting democratic u.s. senator, bob menendez from new jersey is in court as we speak being prosecuted by this justice department. those are two huge supporters of joe biden, and his son. >> joe biden son. >> do we remember that the same justice department declined to poppy -- prosecute matt gates on trafficking? if this justice department is doing political stuff they are doing it really badly. there is evidence, and evidence is not a democrat or republican or socialist or a communist. evidence is evidence, and what

is happening is cases with evidence go to court and when there is not evidence -- >> they don't go to court. >> it's not complicated, alex. that is what you are seeing here and it doesn't have anything to do with whether you are a democrat or republican. >> it seems to me they painted themselves into a corner on this one. they don't have anywhere to go because donald trump is been convicted of 34 felony counts so the only thing they can do is echo what donald trump is saying when in reality, you served in the u.s. congress, you've served in the senate. you know it's real. this is a jury of trumps fears that convicted him on these felony counts. >> what is most damaging about it is what they are attacking. first, they go after free and fair elections and say no there is not fair, even though there is no evidence even than --

though none of the courts found any evidence if you don't win it's rigged so they are attacking people's faith in elections. now, what they are doing for huge numbers of americans, they are convincing them that the rule of law is not fair in this country and that is permanently damaging to our democracy and probably the worst thing he has done and that is saying something. >> it's a low bar. for people who don't understand and i think it's worth articulating, this sort of independence of the attorney general, they haul merrick garland up to the hill to insinuate that he's pulling the strings in fulton county and in manhattan and for people to understand better how it all functions, can you explain that relationship or lack thereof between someone like merrick garland and someone like fani willis? >> merrick garland is the highest law enforcement agent in the federal system. he is the attorney general of the united states and part of the executive branch so of course we have state systems, state courts and state laws. he makes sure federal laws are enforced so for example, what trump is charged with in new york those are state laws, not federal laws.

it's about what happens in the state of new york, not the justice department, prosecuted by the manhattan district attorney there. two separate systems. however, most of the hearings today with republicans trying to collapse those two systems into one and muddy in the minds of voters what is going on, you know, it is something that for people who understand these are two very separate agreements you might not think anything of but for many people who are not paying attention, for people who are not reading the news every day and might not understand these are two separate systems, they will be confused and they will wonder why isn't merrick garland responsible. garland gave really firm push back but i think what the republicans are doing is not about whether or not there being hypocrites anymore. it's not about whether they are not quite accurate. it's really about trying to control a message, that conspiracy message, and make it

last until the election to try to keep voters really riled up and wanting to get out there and vote. >> well, and it is really cynical, that the american public is ignorant enough that they will by this line, that the american public will buy that hook, line and sinker and i wonder what your faith is in the engagement of american voters leading up to the election because this all seems like it is designed to help trump in november. >> first of all, there are two [ inaudible ] at this point and one group of people is looking at the evidence and understanding -- let me just say something. state prosecutors usually don't even like federal prosecutors. i was a state prosecutor. i wanted them to leave me alone. we responded to 911 calls. most of the violent crime in this country is prosecuted by state prosecutors. so, there is a natural friction between the two systems, much

less the illusion that some elected prosecutor is going to let merrick garland tell them what to do is ludicrous. i would've told the attorney general to pound sand if he came in my office while i was the elected d.a.. but what's going on here is they want to get their base excited. i think joe biden space understands how serious and damaging this is but to disengage voters between this group are going to decide the selection i getting convicted for felonies really hurts trump with that group and that is why you are seeing this really hair on fire, this is all agenda deal because they are worried about those disengaged independent voters that have gone back and forth from people like barack obama to donald trump and joe biden and now they are trying to fight for them to come back to donald trump. >> 34 felony counts unanimous jury decision cuts through the noise quite clearly. you know, the legal troubles in and around donald trump are not dissipating. there is the state electors

plot, the fate -- fake electors plot. i believe the attorney general there today charge three trump a.i.d.s. in their state that brings indictments and five of the seven fake electors states. arizona, georgia, michigan, nevada and wisconsin. >> we have a federal case on this. donald trumpis the named defendant. there are still unindicted co- conspirators who have not yet been named. do you think we are going to get more on that federal >> sur i think we're talking about two different things, both important. on the federal cases against donald trump, the one merrick garland does ultimately oversee as attorney general one is a

classified documents case in florida that is being held up almost indefinitely as the judge works away as slowly as i've ever seen any judge work their way through a case against the incredibly straightforward side of how to handle the classified information itself so there is that case, very slow and in this case about january 6 and the former president's role in it, it is now one of the most important pieces of, whether or not trump has immunity for any of his actions because he was the sitting president at the time of his attack, that's made its way to the supreme court and that could also drag on for quite some time because one possibility is the court, rather than saying whether or not trump is immune because they don't want to make any ruling that would want the case to move forward, the court could say we are kicking this back down to the district court level. judge tonya check-in is never seen the case. we want her to decide what she thinks was in the scope of trump's power as president and that could get re-litigated and

appealed and come back to us adding just once a month, so also pushing that beyond election day. however, these are still things hanging over donald trump's head . to rather point, what is interesting about the state cases as they really go after trump's lawyers so for example, the case you mentioned was a constitution of lawyers including ken chas borough. to go after the lawyers even if donald trump did admit it, what you are looking at is the states you seem very empowered today to go after people who are helping trump break the law in those states, and it's going to make it difficult for him to find people who want to sign up for that job again even if he is president of the united states because again we have state courts and federal courts. we have the justice department. we have state prosecutors. clearly there are states that are willing to do things like this. >> yes, the states plow ahead and as we know from the

education you gave us at the top of the hour, the states are not working at the behest of the federal government whether merrick garland is the ag or not. thank you for sharing your wisdom with us tonight. claire, please stay right here because i have so much more to talk to you about. coming up, america's european allies are following the u.s. presidential election with great anticipation and high anxiety and they are pretty sure they know who's going to win this one. first, president biden has officially called donald trump a convicted felon, but behind closed doors. we have more on the biden campaign strategy for the felon front runner right after this break.

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last night at a private fundraiser in connecticut and for the first time since donald trump was found guilty of 34 felonies, president biden confronted trump's legal status head on. here's the quote. for the first time in american history, former president is a convicted felon. now, he is running again not only obsessed with losing in 2020, he has clearly been, and i mean this sincerely, a little unhinged. so far, president biden has only said felon in private, but early postconviction poles may change that strategy. the majority of americans believe the jury in trump's case made the right call. according to a new poll, 40% of independent voters say trump's prosecution upheld the rule of law, and 10% of republican registered voters so they are less likely to vote for donald trump following his conviction. i'm back with former u.s. senator claire mccaskill and also joined by jonathan martin, senior political columnist at politico. let me first ask you what you

see or what you understand to be the trepidation inside the biden campaign around having the president more aggressively call out trumps convicted felon status. >> i think it's two things. number one, not wanting to play into republican hands of the idea that this was a political hit job that was planned in the west wing and doj and obviously if biden was to go out this head-on, you certainly would hear more of that kind of language from republicans. the other issue was joe biden himself. as senator mccaskill knows, biden is an institutionalist. he does not like the idea of using that sort of an attack against his opponent, of weaponizing his opponents legal exposure. that is not a natural thing for joe biden. i think it every step of this campaign, biden has had to be pushed a little bit to go harder it trump, you know.

for a while, he would not even say trump's name. i'm really curious if biden makes the same attack he did last night that you show there from the fundraiser on camera at a rally, because obviously it's a very different thing when you are staying -- saying that it a donor event than on camera. >> yes. clear, what is your expectation on that front? there is a debate and a couple of weeks. are we going to hear any of this? >> everybody knows he was convicted. it's not like anybody in america doesn't know that donald trump was convicted and i don't think biden needs to be the one to emphasize it over and over again. what he does need to do is stand up for those jurors. he needs to stand up for the institution. he needs to stand up for the institutions of america that

have made our country so wonderful and that is what trump is campaigning against. he is actually campaigning against the essence of our system and that is what he needs to debate. he needs to go after trump's in a way that is really strong, just like he did in the state of the union. it's about strength, about the strength of america and about donald trump thinking that we suck and that's what he needs to be doing. >> do think that ideological or theoretical argument about the sanctity of institutions resonates more with the 10 people who are going to decide the election as opposed to, do you really want a convicted felon running the country? >> i do think it does. i think people are tired of the chaos. they are tired of the drama. i think joe biden got to be president in the first place because people wanted a nice guy who believed in america and who wanted to lift us up, not grind us down. donald trump wants everybody to be grievance and mad and everything is rigged and -- joe

biden wants people to believe in the promise of this country. it's a pretty stark contrast and if he does it with strength i think you will have more effect on those independent voters than just harping on the convicted felon thing because everybody knows it. >> you know, you're calling from your alma mater at the new york times was saying on the daily podcast that the more trump is talking about the conviction and really his supporters against joe biden and the doj, the less he is talking about inflation and emigration, the better it is for joe biden. biden announced a very big executive order on immigration today. i wonder what you make of the headline to restrict migrants, biden leads on trump's favorite immigration law. what you make of that? >> that biden needs to address the board and -- board because it seems chaotic and it's done political damage to him. he needed to sign any bill that came out of congress this year. obviously trump stymied that effort so he had no choice but

to do this kind of an order and i think it's something he could hold off on the debate, hold off on the campaign trail. and say i have taken a hard line on the issue. the question is you know, was it too late doing this? i think the shorthand on this election is pretty straightforward. if in october this is about donald trump, joe biden has a good shot to win. if in october this is about joe biden, i think donald trump is probably going to win. it's hard to recall a modern campaign for the two major party nominees really wanted the conversation to be about the other guy instead of them. >> i was just going to say, the headline in the new york times is effectively biden adopts trumps stance on immigration. i'm going to set aside the immigration policy itself for a second but does biden actually get any credit when according to the times, not the bastion

of conservatism, he is adopting trumps policy on immigration? >> i don't think it loses him and he votes on his left flank because the only issue on the campaign for half the country's donald trump and stopping donald trump and joe biden is the vehicle for that so i don't think he is going to lose the vote because he adopts trumpian border tactics. i think it's going to firm up his little middleground a little bit because it gives him something to say that i am taking steps on the border. i don't think it's going to lose him any votes. i think biden is so locked in now with almost half the country because they just don't want trump again. >> clear, what do you think on the executive order? >> i think it was the right thing for him to do. i think he did it because he thought he was going to get a bill and then he didn't.

i think it is going to show the border gets shut down, which is a good thing to happen over the next five months and it is not just trumpian policy. he's not going to separate children from their families. he's not singling out a religion and there are things he could emphasize about this that are not the same. they have more fentanyl at the border in the past two years than the previous five years combined. >> and you think saying that it is more, in his eyes, it's not as draconian as trump is given not undermining the very thing he is trying to do. >> no, i don't think it will. i think there is a difference between thousands of people coming across the border and the influx of people into urban centers around this country. there is a difference between that and grabbing babies out of mother's arms. >> that child separation policy is a stain on our national conscience. we could talk about this for another four hours. thank you for making the time. coming up, can the transatlantic alliance survive a second term of donald trump? that is not a rhetorical question.

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there is pervasive anxiety and europe over whether the western world order can actually survive a second trump term. fear of losing europe's most powerful ally has translated into a pathologically intense fixation on the u.s. presidential race. european officials can explain the electoral college in granular

>> you are talking to george kent, the u.s. ambassador to estonia, and you have the sonic that where he tried to make small talk about horticulture but his gardner had other things on his mind. can we talk about the vote in congress, the gardner wanting the latest news on the ukraine aid package. you have tracked all over europe for this piece can. can you talk about the level of interest in the catholic event for that? >> i was honestly taken aback by the fact that everywhere i went with almost everyone i talked to at every level, whether it was a foreign minister or a 23-year-old worker, all of them were playing -- paying close attention to the u.s. presidential race and the catalytic event is there terrified donald trump is going to get elected again.

time and time again the word that came up in these interviews was existential, as in the stakes for this race are existential for europe and it is no secret why. donald trump has been very clear that he is not a fan of nato. he has said both privately and publicly the countries that are not paying what he considers their fair share deserve to be attacked by russia, and for especially eastern european countries, i spent time in poland and estonia, that is a really frightening thing to hear from the former and potentially future leader of the most powerful ally to europe. they talk about this in ways

that i found pretty jarring. >> i would think the idea of russia invading ukraine would strike fear in the hearts of many in western europe, and the prospect of having someone in the oval office who is sympathetic to vladimir putin's and's or bowls is probably terrifying. you know, you mentioned that germany is planning for the possibility of a trump second term. can you talk a little bit more about their thinking and why they seem so positive that this is trumps race to lose? >> yes. the german foreign ministry, after trump won the first election, and sometime in the middle of that first term, the kind of realized that they needed to rethink their approach to america, you know, like a lot of western governments, they have plans for dealing with developments in places like china or russia, but because the alliance with the u.s. has always been so close, they never felt like

they would have to do that for america, but now they do. they're developing contingency plans for the outcome of the 2024 election. they have a plan for if biden wins, the most of the officials i spoke to in germany and across europe do not think biden is going to win. they have a plan for trump winning, and in that planet really calls for figuring out which major issue sets are going to be destabilized by trump's return to power, whether that is terrorists, ukraine, nato, climate change, and how they can try to get close to trumps confidence. they're already mapping out his inner circle and figuring out their way in there. but, i have to tell you, the thing that most struck me was that they were also planning for a third scenario, which is a sustained period of uncertainty about the outcome of the election paired with widespread political violence in the united states, something like january 6th, but on a much larger scale. you know, it is not the german

officials necessarily think that is a likely outcome, but given the instability in american politics over the past eight years, their feeling is that it is not so outrageous a scenario that the should not plan for it so they are currently making plans for how to respond to that. >> yes, i think those of us who are old enough to remember 2020, planning something like that doesn't seem so out of the ordinary. it is a distressing landscape to look out upon. foreign counterparts, you are right. you are speaking about the former secretary of under affairs for the state department. foreign counterparts would say to me straight up. the first trump election, maybe people didn't understand who he was or it was an accident. a second election of trump? we will never trust you again. i understand the sense of betrayal europeans are girding themselves for, but in the sense of autocrats rising to power and sweeping through western democracy, europe has plenty of its own examples. do they see trumpism as an extension of that or as a

solely american phenomenon? >> no, i think they see trump as an extension of the same kind of right-wing nationalism and populism that is giving a lot of western democracies in europe problems, but it is different when it happens it in america. there is no other way to say it. western european countries really, european democracies in general, have looked to america for decades as an aspirational democracy. the city on the hill. i mean, it sounds cheesy in some ways and it is easy to be cynical about it but i have to tell you i was really surprised by how often i encountered this really idealistic sentiments about what role america is supposed to play in the free world and the sense of heartbroken betrayal at this idea that trump could come back to power and that americans would put somebody like trump in power. it is not like they think that

america is uniquely bad. it is just that they actually have been predisposed to think that america is uniquely adverse to this kind of authoritarian politics and seeing it now tear through american politics is frightening and disorienting for a lot of europeans. >> it is so deeply researched and so deeply reported. everyone should check it out. thank you so much for your time and essential reporting. still ahead tonight, what one supreme court justice has to say about the courts right shift in the secret conservative movement that got us all here. that is next. got us all here. that is next.

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as soon as this week thursday, the supreme court can hand down rulings on two major cases with the power to reshape the landscape of reproductive freedom in america again. the first case is the fda versus the alliance for hippocratic medicine which could drastically limit access to mifepristone. the second case in front of the court is roe versus the united states.

that case could allow emergency rooms to deny abortions to pregnant women who are experiencing medical emergencies. that sounds discouraging. try being one of the court's liberal justices. two weeks ago, justice sonia sotomayor described what it is like to be a member of the court's minority as the majority tries a conservative agenda into law. >> we did go backwards in dobbs. i'm not saying something new. we've taken away a right. we've never done that in our history. mind you, there are days that i have come to my office after an announcement of a case, and closed my door and cried. there have been those days, and there are likely to be more. >> there have been those days and there are likely to be more. did you catch that? after citing the dobbs decision, justice sotomayor implied that there might be more decisions like it coming down the pike. maybe that is the decision in

the mifepristone case or maybe emergency room abortion access. both of those cases, by the way, as well as dobbs, can be traced back to one organization, the alliance defending freedom. it is a christian legal advocacy group that is been around since the early 90s and has played a central role in the trump era push to empower a conservative christian agenda. in the fall of rome, which was a new book published today, authors elizabeth deus and lisa s described this insurgence we are living through right now. i'm going to speak with the books authors, coming up next. books authors, coming up next. 12 hours of uninterrupted pain relief. aleve. who do you take it for? ...and for fast topical pain relief,try alevex.

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co-authors of the book. it is a tour de force. you guys also talked to both sides of this, which i think is so essential. first, the adf, can you tell us what it is. >> this is a legal organization, a legal advocacy organization with an expressly christian mission who have really focused on cases that blur the line between religion and politics in the public square. they were very involved with blocking enforcement of the contraception mandate under obama care and they were the ones who really saw and developed a major part of the strategy to overturn roe and what our book tracks and really creates for the first time, the first narrative of how they did it and how they work that case up over what we are calling the final decade, a 10-year period,

the final decade of the roe era from little state legislators all the way up to the supreme court. >> what is interesting is the way in which the adf, as aggressive and ambitious as it was, did not think the dobbs decision was going to be the final nail in the coffin for reproductive choice. can you talk about the negotiations that were happening behind the scenes? >> sure, the right is a movement that things in generations and they always have a plan for the plan for the plan just to make sure that no matter what contingency happened, they were going to do whatever it took to overturn roe, and that is something the left really missed along the way. you have the sort of deluge of laws coming through the state legislatures as ended up happening with the dobbs case. they ended up being behind getting that legislation passed through their allies with conservative christian lobbyist in states like mississippi but the trick for them really was building strategies on

strategies and making sure that no opportunity could go on missed, and that big picture scope to look at how you do long-term generational changes a completely different strategy that showed how the left operated over the same time period. >> it's an interesting strategy because it is really building these cases with legal outcomes in mind. it's not just -- the 15-week abortion ban is a principled fight but it's not really about that. it is about how to test the bounds of these laws and ways that the supreme court will take them up and issue a ruling that is favorable to us. it is legal chest. >> it is public policy's litigation strategy. you think when you hear about a band at a certain number of weeks based in science or faith or some sense of morality or fetal development but in fact it wasn't really based in those things although, you know, they said that there was science

behind fetal pain, it was really purely the legal line which adf felt could be the right entry point to strike at roe and have the best shot of having the decision overturned, so it is paula g -- policy's legal strategy. >> the mississippi state solicitor general was the one who is really wanting to go for broke on this one. >> our book has interesting details inside the room and these decisions were made in real time, it is such a window into legal strategy that so many people don't get to see, but you know, they knew the broader changes that were happening certainly with former president trump getting these justices, so the question really was, which case will the supreme court take? when will they do that and so people would tell us you know, the right, they never want to

assume a thing is done until it is done. they're very cautious because the goal is so intense, to win, but once the case was taken up that is when it was like okay, this is go time and there was a question, will this legal strategy be to ask for the full overturn is the first argument or should it be courtroom wide, uphold the mississippi fifth training week law itself and ask for overturning roe second and it was the mississippi attorney general's office that decided no, we're going to go for the whole thing, which shows the radicalization of this movement over this time period. this is not the same religious right, the same antiabortion movement of 30 years ago. >> well, the southern evangelicals at the dawn of the roe decision were not even sure they were against the decision initially. right? >> no, they'd afforded it. -- supported it. >> the adf is not done with

roe. can you talk a bit about other priorities as we move forward? >> part of what we found during the course of our reporting were internal strategy documents laying out the path forward and really for the abortion movement roe was not the end. it was the beginning of the end and their goal is to eradicate abortion completely. they see this as a spiritual and moral fight and so, and it is really even beyond abortion itself. it is in some ways, rolling back the sexual revolution, remaking or reverting what american families are so when you look at their internal strategy documents, what you see our efforts to challenge trans rights, to challenge marriage, to find ways to introduce more prayer in the public square, maybe that is in town meetings or schools and that is really where they're headed and they have lower courts in many cases and certainly a supreme court that appears to be with them, or maybe is likely to be with them on some of these issues. >> yes, and trying to introduce parental rights back into the conversation which is happening. they're talking about