the level of suffering and destruction in gaza once an immediate cease-fire. you need massive amounts of humanitarian aid to save thousands and thousands of children. of course, netanyahu undermines the president's of the united states. let's all be clear. this is not some abstract war fought in another part of the world. we are as americans, our tax dollars are funding this war. netanyahu singh, mr. president, thank you for that 10 million dollars for military aid, but we will not listen to you. i think that is outrageous. reason number 465 why he should not be invited to speak to the joint session of congress. >> senator bernie sanders, thank you. that is all in.

the republican party's front-runner was convicted by a jury of his peers on 3 that is4 the reality the republican party must now grapple with, if they were into reality. so that'sre an issue. what makes this all even more difficult for the gop is that trump's conviction has precisely zero to do with president biden. trump was convicted by a case brought by a new york city prosecutor whoas does not repor to president biden. facing another ten criminal charges from another local prosecutor in georgia who does not report to president biden. even the two federal cases against trump was brought by an independent special counsel who neither takes orders from nor coordinates with president f bidench so donald trump has reacted in a way he traditionally does when reality does not fit with his preferred

reality. he lies about it. he claims without evidence president biden is the one really pulling the strings. >>he these are all biden trials. they're all biden cases. these aren't cases. these are biden -- this is using the justice department to go after yourde political opponent. joe biden isol a threat to democracy. crooked joe biden ordered his top political opponent. >> trump has repeated some version of that lie over and over for the past two years. every elected republican in congress must now attach himself or herself to that lie no matter what reality dictates. and today we saw exactly what that looks like when at or near merrick garland testified before the republican led house judiciary committee at a hearinm ostensibly about oversight of thebo justice department.

for the first time in american history we do have a presidential administration working to put its opponent in jail. that's a fact. >> you're intentionally allowing the department and agents thereinto engage in political prosecution of their opponent. >> at one point in history republicans used to just excuse trump's lies or pretend they didn't hear them. no longer. they have taken a knife to any tether that still binds them to reality and are now just floating awayst into the fact-fe university of donald trump like balloons sore sea gulls in a stiff wind. and it's not just the hard line maga wing of the party anymore. was congressman jeff van drew, a so-called moderate from the state of new jersey trying a shot at state prosecutors fani willis and alvin bragg. >> you ran for office saying he

was going to put donald trump in jail. alvin bragg and also, again, the prosecutor in fulton county, georgia, they ran on that. and that's wrong. >> now, congressman van drew directed those comments to manhattan prosecutors. whatever your reservations about elected prosecutors threatening to criminally investigate the opposing party, congressman van drew is making that argument while defending this guy. >> he should be locked up, i'll tell you right now. she should be locked up, she should. you should lock them up. lock up the bidens, lock up hillary. >> donald trump more than any other politician is literally famous for wanting to jail his political opponents. but over the weekend trump tried

to write that moment out of history. >> hillary clinton, i didn't say lock her up, and i say pretty epenly, all right just relax. >> i didn't say lock her up. i know it was a long 27 seconds ago, but7 here it is again. >> she should be locked up, i'll tell youoc right now. she should be locked up. she should. >> i should also note here donald trump's claim he gave up trying h to prosecute hillary clinton after he won the election is also very much a lie. i we know from special counsel robert mueller's report that trump was fixated on the idea of prosecuting clinton and actually pressured his first attorney general jeff sessions to do just that, to prosecute hillary clinton. oh, but that whole thing, that whole wthing, that's been wipe from republican memory. here's what congressman jason smith told conservative media today while merrick garland was

still testifying. >> attorney general garland is not acting like the attorney general of the united states. he's acting like joe biden's personal attorney. well, that's not how it is. >> okay, so as congressman smith was accusing merrick garland of acting like president biden's personal attorney, merrick garland's justice department was delivering opening arguments in the criminal trial of joe biden's adult son hunter biden. if that is the kind of service you get from your personal attorney, maybe you should get a new personal attorney. for the a record in case your memory has become i don't know untethered to reality, donald trump spent two years complaining thatp his first attorney general, jeff sessions, wasn't acting enough like his personal attorney. then trump fired sessions and hired bill barr, who spent the rest of the trump administration acting a lot like president trump's personal attorney. but according to republicans merrick garland is the one doing the president's bidding.

the thing is republicans are now realizing it is hard to claim you're the victim of a rigged justice system when their presidentialsy candidate has spt his whole political career trying to rig the justice system. merrick garlande for his part s not takingfo any of the bait. >> i will not be intimidated, and the justice department will not be intimidated. we will continue to work to do our jobs free from political influence, and we will not back down from defending democracy. >>nd joining us now former u.s. senator and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill and "the new york times" reporter katie benner. claire, claire, claire, it's like trump claims biden is an enfeebled shut unbut also a master rigging the public justice system.

can they have their cake and eat it to? >> he can't manage to cover up a payment to a porn star, but joe biden is capable of having fingers everywhere in the justice department and pushing levers. right now the justice department is prosecuting a democratic congressman -- a sitting democratic congressman, a sitting democratic u.s. senator, bob menendez in new jersey in courtne as we speak being prosecuted by this justice department. those are two huge supporters of joeo biden.jo and his son -- >> joehi biden's son. >> and do we remember the same justice department declined to prosecute matt gaetz on sex trafficking? if this justice department is doing political stuff, they're doing it really, really badly. >> yeah. >> here's what's going on, there's g evidence. and evidence isn't a democrat or a republican or a socialist or communist, evidence is evidence. what isun happening is cases of evidence go to court.

and when there's not evidence they don't. it's not complicated, alex. that's what you're seeing here. and it doesn't matter if you have anything to do with democrat or republican, the son of a president or a former president. >> they don't have anywhere to go because donald trump has been convicted of 34 counts, so the only thing they can do is echo what donald trump is saying that none of its real. when in reality is they know it's real. this iskn a jury of trump's pee that convicted donald trump. this wasn't joe biden pup masteringde this. >> first they good go after freo and fair elections and say they're not fair even though there's no evidence, even thougc none of the courts found any evidence, it was all rigged. if you don't win, it's rigged. so they're attacking people's faith in elections. now what they're doing for a huge number of americans is the

rule of law is rigged in this country. >> katie, for people who don't understand i think it's worth articulating the sort of independence of the attorney general. they called merrick garland up on the hill to insiniate he's pulling the strings in fulton county ands manhattan. fornd people to understand bett how it all functions can you explain that relationship or lack thereof between someone like merrick garland and someone like fani willis? >> i'll make a couple of points. merrick garland he's the largest law enforcement agent in the federal system, he's part of the executive branch. so of course we have state systems. we have state courts,e and we have statee laws. he makes sure that all federal laws are enforced. so, for example, what trump is charged with in new york, those are statewi laws. those are not federal laws. it is not about anything the justice departments will do. it's about whatst happens in th state of new york prosecuted by

the manhattan district attorney. they are two separate systems. however, to your point most of the hearing today was the republicans trying to collapse that -- those two systems into one and sort of muddy in the minds off voters what is going on. it's something for people who understand these are two separate agreements might not think anything of ntit, but for many people not paying attention, not reading the news every day and people who might not understand these are two separate systems they will be confused and wonder why isn't merrick garland responsible. garland gave really, really firm push back. i think what they're doing is it's not about whether they're being hip clts anymore or saying things that aren't quite accurate, it's trying to control thisit larger conspiracy messag and make it last until the election to keep voters really riled up and get out there to vote. >> it's a really cynical bet,

too, claire, isn't it that america will buy this line hook, line, and sinker. what your faith of is in the engagement of the american voter leading up to the election, because this all seems like it's designed to help trump insi november. >> well, first of all, there are two -- there's earth one and earth two at this point. >> yes. >> and one group of people is looking at the evidence and understanding -- frankly, let me just sayle something, state prosecutors don't even like federal prosecutors. i was a state prosecutor. i wanted them to leave me the hellto alone. we respond to 911 calls. most of the violent crime in this country is prosecuted by state prosecutors. federal jurisdiction doesn't even lie with federal crimes in this country. there's a natural friction between the two systems much less some prosecutors are going to letut merrick garland tell tm

what to do is ludicrous. but what's going on here is they want to get their base side in so their base votes. i think joe biden's base understands how serious this is and how damaging this is, but they the disengaged voters between the groups is going to decide this election and i think convicted for t felonies really hurts trump with that group, and that's why you're seeing this hair on fire, this is all a ginned up deal because they're worried about thosese disengage independent voters that have gone back and forth from people likek barack obama to donald trump to joe biden, and now they're trying to fight for them to come back to donald trump. >> twell, 34 felony counts, unanimous jury decision st. -- you know, it cuts through the noise quite clearly. katie, the legal troubles in and around trump are not dissipating. there's the other criminal triar but also the state electors plot

at the state level. i believe it was wisconsin the attorney general there today criminallyat charged three trum aides whoed orchestrated that electors plot in their state. that brings indictments in five of thes seven fake elector states -- arizona, georgia, nevada, michigan, arizona, and wisconsin. we have a federal case on this. donald trump is the named defendant. there are still unindicted coconspirators who haven't yet been named. do you think we're going to get more on that case around january 6th and the fake electors in the coming months? >> sure. i think we're talking about two different things, both important. on the case the justice department does oversee, the one merrick garland does oversee as attorney general, one is a classified documents case in florida being held c up almost indefinitely as the judge works her way as slowly as i've seen any judge work her way through a case that is incredibly

straightforward outside of how to handle the classified information itself. so there's that case very slow, and this case about january 6th and the former president's role in it, it is now one of the most important pieces in it whether or not trump has immunity for any of his actions because he was the sitting president at the time of the attack. that's actually been kicked up the supreme court, and that too could drag on for a bit of time because one possibility the court rather than saying whether or not trump is immune because of his behavior or making any ruling that would allow the case to move forward, the court could say instead, you know what, we're kicking this back down to the district court level. judgert tanya chutkan, overseei the case we want her to decide what shewa thinks was in the sce of trump's power as president, and that could get relitigated and appealed and come back to us for months and months and also pushing that beyond election day. however, these are still things

hanging over donald trump's head. totr your other point about sta cases what's interesting about they really go after trump's lawyers. the case to trump lawyers including chen chesebro the architect of the fake electors scheme to go after the lawyers even if donald trump did win. what you're looking is states who seem very empowered today tm go after people who are helping trump break the law in those states. and it's going to make it him to find people who sign up again. we have state courts and federal courts, the justice department and prosecutors. even if the doj doesn't do it under trump, clearly there are states that are i willing to do things likein this. >> yeah, the states plow ahead. and as weta know from the education you gave us at the top of the hour, the states are not working at the behest of the federal government whether merrick garland is the a.g. or not. katie benner from "the new york

times" thank you for sharing your time. i appreciate it. claire mccaskill, please stay right here because i have so much more tore talk to you abou. coming up the european allies are following the u.s. presidentialol election with grt anticipation and high anxiety, and they are pretty sure they know who's going to win this one. mckay coppens joins me with bombshell reportings on that. we're going to have the biden campaign strategy forin the fel front-runner for the opposition right after this break. n front-runner for the opposition right after this break what is cirkul? cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. cirkul is your frosted treat with a sweet kick of confidence. cirkul is the effortless energy

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last night at a private fund-raiser in connecticut and for the first time since donald trump was found guilty of 34 felonies, president biden confronted trump's legal status head on. here's the quote prch in the

first time in american history a former president is a convicted felon. now he's running again. he's not only obsessed with losing 2020 he's clearly been and i mean this sincerely a little unhinged. so far president biden has only said the f-word, felon, in private. early polls may change that strategy. a majority of americans iptrump's case believe they made the right call. 54% of independent voters believe the prosecution upheld the rule of law and 10% of registered american voters say they're less likely to vote for trump following his conviction. back with senator claire mccaskill and joined by -- martin from politico. let me ask you what you see to be the trepidation around the

biden campaign to have the president call out trump's convicted status and his travails. >> i think it's two things. number one not wanting to play in the republican hands of the idea this was a political hit job that was planned in the west wing and doj. and obviously if biden was to go at this head on you'd certainly hear that kind of language from republicans. i think the other issue is joe biden himself. look, as senator mccaskill knows biden is a thorough going institutionalist. he doesn't like the idea of sort of using that sort of an attack against his opponent of weaponizing his opponent's legal exposure. that's not a natural thing for joe biden. i think at every step of his campaign, you know, biden has had to be pushed a little bit to go harder and harder at trump. for a while he wouldn't even say trump's name. i'm really curious if biden makes that same attack he did

last night you showed there from the fund-raiser on camera at a rally because obviously it's a very different thing when you're saying that, you know, at a donor event, alex, than on camera. >> yeah. claire, what is your expectation on that front? and there's a debate in a couple weeks and, and are we going to hear any of this? >> everyone knows he's a convicted felon. it's not like anybody in the america doesn't know donald trump was convicted. what he does need to do is stand up for those jurors. he needs to stand up for the institution. he needs to stand up frp the institutions of america that have made our country so wonderful, and that's what trump is campaigning against. he's actually campaigning against the essence of our system. and that's what he needs to convey. he needs to go after trump in a way that really strong just like

he did in the "state of the union." this guy, it's about strength and about the strengthen of america and about donald trump thinking that we suck. and that's what he needs to be doing. >> do you think that that sort of ideological or at least theoretical argument about the sanctity of democratic institutions resonates more with the ten people who are going to decides the election as opposed to do you really want a convicted felon running the country? >> i do think it does because i think people are tired of the cay, they're tired of the drama. i think joe biden got to be president in the first place because people wanted a nice guy who believed in america and wanted to lift us up, not grind us down. i mean donald trump wants everybody to be grievanced and mad and everything's rigged. and joe biden wants people to believe in the promise of this country. it's a pretty stark contrast, and i think he'll have more effect on those independent voters than just harping on the

convicted felon thing because everybody knows it. >> your colleague from "the new york times" was saying on the daily podcast the more trump was talking about the conviction and railing supporters against joe biden and the doj, the less he's talking about inflation and immigration, the better it is for joe biden. i mean biden announced a very, very big executive order on immigration today. i wonder what you make sort of the headline to restrict migrants biden leans on trump's favorite immigration law. what do you make of the political calculation there? >> that biden needs to address the border because it seems chaotic and done real damage to his political standing over the past 2 1/2 years. it's pretty straightforward. he would have loved to sign any bill that came out of the congress earlier this year. obviously trump stymied that effort, so he had no choice politically to turn to this kind of order, and i think it's something he could hold up at the debate, hold up on the

campaign trail when he's attacked on this. i have taken a hard line on the issue. the question is, you know, was it too late doing this? look, i think the shorthand on this election is pretty straight forward. if in october this is about donald trump, donald trump has a good shot to win. if in october this is about joe biden i think donald trump is going to win. it's hard to recall in a campaign where the two major party nominees wanted the conversation to be about the other guy instead of them. go ahead, claire. >> i was going to say the headline in "the new york times" is effectively biden adopts trump's stance on immigration. i'm going to set aside this sort of immigration policy for a second, but does biden actually get any credit when it looks like he's according to "the times" not the bastion of conservatism. he's adopting trump's line on immigration? >> i don't think it loses him any votes on his left flank

because the only issue on the campaign for half of the country is donald trump and stopping donald trump, and joe biden's the vehicle for that. i don't think he's going to lose votes because he's adopted trumpian border tactics. i think it could help sort of firm up his middle ground a little bit because it give him something to say. i am taking steps on the border to try to win back some of those voters in the middle who don't like the images that they're seeing on the border. i don't think it's going to lose him any votes. i think biden is so locked in now with half the country -- almost half the country because they just don't want trump again. >> claire, what do you think on the executive order? >> well, i think it was the right thing for him to do. i think he did it because he thought he was going to get a bill and then he didn't. i think it does -- it's going to show the border gets shutdown, which is a good thing to happen over the next five months, and it's not just like trumpian policy. he's not going to separate children from their families. he's not singling out a religion.

and there are things he could emphasize about this that are not the same. he -- they've gotten more fentanyl at the border over the last two years than the previous five years combined. >> but isn't the point to be -- and you think saying it's a more in his eyes, it's not as draconian as trump is not going to undermine the very thing he was trying to do which was stuck on the bord snr. >> i don't think it will. i think there's a difference between thousands of people coming across the border and the influx of people in urban centers around this country. there's a difference between that and grabbing babies out of mother's arms. >> yes, the child separation policy, a stain on our national conscience. claire mccaskill and john martin, we could talk about this for another four hours. thank you for making the time. i appreciate it. coming up can the transatlantic alliance really survive donald trump? that is not a rhetorical

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whether the western world order can actually survive a second trump term. fear of europe's most powerful ally has translated into a path logically intense fixation on the u.s. presidential race. european officials can explain the electoral college in granular detail and cite polling data from battleground states. thomas bagger, the state secretary in the german foreign ministry told me in a year when billions of people in dozens of countries around the world will get the chance to vote the only election all europeans are interested in is the american election. almost every official i spoke with believed that donald trump is going to win. joining me now is mckay coppens, staff writer for the atlantic. mckay, thank you for being here. we're going to set aside the european assessment of who is going to be the winner for a moment, and just talk to me about the -- i think it's almost hard to overstate the hyperfixation of europeans on this presidential race. you were talking to george kent,

the u.s. ambassador to estonia, and you have this anecdote where he tried to make small talk about horticulture, but his gardener had other things on his mind. can we talk about the vote in congress and the latest news on the ukraine aid package. you traveled all over europe for this piece. can you talk a bit about when level of interest and what the catalytic event for that interest was? >> i was honestly taken aback by the fact that everywhere i went with almost everyone i talked to at every level whether it was a foreign minister or, you know, a 23-year-old grad student and low level government worker, all of them were paying incredibly close attention to american politics especially the u.s. presidential race. and i mean the catalytic event is that they're terrified donald trump is going to get elected again. you know, time and time again the word that kept coming up in these interviews is existential,

as in the stakes for this race are existential for europe. and it's no secret why, right? donald trump has been very clear that he is not a fan of nato. he has said both privately and publicly that countries that aren't paying what he considers their fair share deserves to be attacked by russia. and for especially eastern european countries i spent time in poland and estonia, that is a really frightening thing to hear from the former and potentially future leader of the most powerful ally to europe. and that fear of trump's return is causing all kinds of reconsiderations of -- of the relationship with the united states in ways that i found, frankly, pretty jarring. >> well, i mean i would also assume russia invading ukraine which is in western europe's backyard would strike fear in the hearts of many people in western europe, and the prospect of having someone in the oval office who is sympathetic to

vladimir putin's ends or goals is probably terrifying. you know, you mention that germany is planning for the possibility of a trump second term. can you talk a little bit more about their sort of thinking and why they seem so positive that -- that this is trump's race to lose. >> yeah, so the german foreign ministry after trump won the first election and some time in the middle of that first term, they kind of realized they needed to rethink their approach to america, you know, like a lot of western governments. they have have plans for dealing with developments in place like china or russia but because the alliance always felt so close they never felt like they had to do that for america but now they do. they're developing plans for the outcome of the 2020 election. they have a plan if biden wins and most of the officials i spoke to in germany and across

europe do not think biden is going to win. they have a plan for trump winning, and in that plan it really calls for figuring out which major issue sets are going to be destabilized by trump's return to power whether that's terrorists or ukraine or nato or climate change and how they can try to get close to trump's confidants. they're already mapping out his inner circle and figuring their way in there. i have to tell you the thing that most struck me is that they're also planning for a third scenario, which is a sustained period of uncertainty about the outcome of the election paired with widespread political violence in the united states, something like january 6th but on a much larger scale. and, you know, it's not that german officials necessarily think that's a very likely outcome but given the instability in american politics over the past eight years, they're feeling it's not so

outrageous a scenario they shouldn't plan for it, so they are currently making plans for how to respond to that. >> well, yes. i think those of us who -- we're old enough to remember 2020 so planning for something like that doesn't seem so out of the ordinary if it's a distressing landscape to look out upon. foreign counter parts speaking to the under secretary for the foreign department said the first trump election maybe people didn't understand who he was or maybe an accident. a second election of trump, we'll never trust you again. i understand the sense of betrayal europeans are girding themselves for, but in terms of autocrats rising to power and sweeping through western democracies, i mean europe has plenty of its own examples, right? they have viktor orban in hungary, douda in poland.

>> they see trump as an extension of the same right wing populism that is giving a lot of western democracies in europe problem, but it is different when it happen in america. there is no other way to say it, right? western european countries, really european democracies in general have looked to america for decades as a aspirational democracy, right? the city on the hill, i mean it sounds cheesy in some ways and it's easy to be cynical about it, but i have to tell you i was really surprised by how often i encountered this really kind of idealistic sentiment about what role america is supposed to play in the free world and the sense of kind of heartbroken betrayal at this idea that trump could come back to power and that americans would put somebody like trump in power. it's not that they think that america's uniquely bad, it's

just that they actually have been predisposed to think america is unaekly averse to this kind of, you know, authoritarian politics. and seeing it now kind of tear through american politics is frightening and disorienting for a lot of europeans. >> well, mckay, it's so deeply researched and so deeply reported, everyone should check it out. mckay coppens with the atlantic, thank you so much for your time and essential reporting. >> thanks, alex. still ahead tonight what one supreme court justice has to say about the court's rightward shift and the secret conservative movement that got us all here, that's next. t thatt us all here, that's next number smart bed? i need help with her snoring. sleep number does that. thank you now, save 40% on the sleep number special edition smart bed.

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as soon as this week as in thursday the supreme court could hand down rulings on two major cases, two cases that have the power to reshape the landscape of reproductive freedom in america again. the first case is the fda versus the alliance for hippocratic medicine, which could drastically limit access to miff prois tone, a key medication used in nearly two thirds of abortions nationally. the second case is loyola vs. the united states, that could allow emergency rooms to deny abortions to pregnant women experiencing medical emergencies. if that sounds discouraging try being one of the court's liberal justice. two weeks ago justice sonia sote mayor described what it's like to be in part of the court's

minority as a majority enshrined their agenda into law. >> we did go backward in dobbs. i said it's in my dissent so i'm not saying something new. we've taken up a way of right. we've never done that in our history. mind you there are days that i come to my office after an announcement of a case and closed my door and cried. there have been those days and likely to be mer. >> there have been those days and there are likely to be more. did you catch that? after citing the dobbs decision justice sotomayor implied there might be more decisions like it coming down the pipe. maybe that's something in the mifepristone case or abortion access. both of those cases can be traced back to one organization, the alliance defending freedom or adf. it's a christian legal advocacy group that's been around since the '90s and it has played a

central role in the trump era push to empower a conservative christian agenda. in the fall of roe, which is new book published today authors elizabeth dias and lisa lai describe this resurgence and how it led to what we're living through right now. i'm going to speak the with the authors of the book coming up next. with the authors of the book coming up next

her uncle's unhappy. i'm sensing an underlying issue. it's t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit... unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”.

you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. how exactly after nearly 50 years of precedent did the constitutional right to abortion collapse? in a new book out today "the fall of roe the rise of new america" reporters aim to answer that question. their investigation built on interviews with more than 350 people uncovers what happened when the trump presidency provided a critical opportunity for a christian legal group known as the alliance defending freedom, the adf. joining me now are the coauthors oof the fall of roe, elizabeth

dias, national religion correspondent for "the times," and lisa lair. it is a tour de force. you guys both talk the sides of this. first the adf, for people not familiar with the organization can you tell us what it is? >> this a legal advocacy organization with an expressly christian mission who have really focused on cases that blur the line between religion and politics in the public square. they were very involved in blocking of course the contraceptive mandate under obamacare. and they were the ones who really saw and developed a major part of the strategy to overturn roe. and what our book tracks and really creates for the first time, the first narrative of how they did it and how they worked that case over what we're calling the final decade, a ten-year period, the final decade of the roe era from little state legislators all the way up to the supreme court.

>> what's interesting, elizabeth, the way the adf as aggressive and ambitious as it was didn't think the dobbs decision was going to be the final nail in the coffin for reproductive choice. can you talk a little bit about the negotiations happening behind the scenes? >> sure. the right is a moment that thinks in generations, and they always had a plan for the plan for the plan, right? just to make sure that no matter what contingency happened, they were going to do whatever it took to overturn roe. and that's something that the left really missed along the way. you have this sort of deluge of laws coming through the state legislature and adf ended up happening with the dobbs case ended up being behind getting that legislation passed through their allies with conservative christian lobbyists in states like mississippi. but the trick for them really was building strategies on strategies and making sure that no opportunity could go unmissed, and that kind of big

picture scope to look at how you do long-term generational change is a completely different strategy than we showed how the left operated over the same time period. >> it's such an interesting portrait of strategy because it's really building these cases with legal outcomes in mind, right? it's not just the -- i mean the 15-week abortion ban of course a principled fight, but it's not really about that. it's how can we test the boundaries of these laws in ways the supreme court can take them up and issue a ruling favorable to our movement? >> it's public litigation strategy. when you think you hear a ban that's set a certain number of weeks this is based in science or faith or some sense of morality or fetal development, but in fact it wasn't really based in those things although they said there was science around fetal pain. it was purely the legal liep adf felt could be the right entry

point to strike at roe and be the best shot at having that decision overturned. his policy is litigation strategy. >> again, they weren't gunning for it necessarily. it was the mississippi state solicitor-general i think really like we're going to go for broke on this one. >> our book has new interesting details like inside the room when these decisions were made in realtime, which is such a window into legal strategy that so many people don't get to see. but the right, they kind of knew the broader changes that were happening certainly with former president trump getting these justices, so the question really was which case will the supreme court take over? when will they do that? and so people will tell us the right, they never want to assume something is done until it's done. that's the game. they're cautious because the goal is so intense to win, but once the case was taken up, that's when it was like, okay, this is go time, and there is a

question will it spark legal strategy to ask for the full overturn as the first argument, or should it be, court, we want you to uphold the mississippi 15-week law itself and ask for overturning roe as the second. and it was the mississippi attorney general's office that decided, no, we're going to go for the whole thing, which shows the radicalization of this movement over this time period. this is not the same religious right, the same anti-abortion movement of 30 years ago. >> well, the southern evangelicals at the dawn of the roe decision weren't even sure they were against the decision initially, right? >> no, they supported it. >> lisa, adf is not done with roe. the abortion fight goes on and the christian conservative cultural war continues. can you talk a little bit about their other priorities as we move forward in time? >> part of what we found was internal strategy laying out

their path forward. in the anti-abortion movement roe was not the end. it was the beginning of the end, and their goal is to eradicate abortion completely. they see this as a spearual and moral fight, and it's really even beyond abortion itself. it's in some ways rolling back the sexual revolution, remaking or averting what american families are. so when you look at their internal strategy documents what you see are efforts to challenge trans rights, to challenge gay marriage, to finally introduce more prayer in the public school -- in the public square. maybe that's in town meetings or in school, and that's really where they're headed, and they have lower courts in many cases and certainly a supreme court that appears to be with them or maybe likely to be with them on some of these issues. >> yeah, and they're trying to introduce parental rights back into the conversation, which is happening. they're talking about not affirmative action but free speech on college campuses. all these things are in the zeitgeist if not actually

legislative solutions being sought by conservatives at the state level. >> when you understand the story of how roe fell what was that legislation to courts, to law and a cultural transformation pipeline, then you can understand, okay, this makes sense in the other big cultural, transformative cases play out. >> like i said it is so comprehensive and the fact you've talked today the right about how they won the war or at least the battle, it makes it essential reading. authors of "the fall of roe" which is right now on book shelves or wherever you order books or kindles, e.-readers. thank you for being here. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire. these repeated attacks on the justice department are unprecedented, and they are unfounded.