cushner and max brukman who beautifully and hauntingly captured what it was like in germany before the first world war and the second world war, there was all that trauma yet let's love for the now. you captured the moment of 2024. what it feels like to be an american right now. i think we'll look back on these images and be taken back to today just like the german expressionists bring us back to what it was like out there. before world war ii. isabel, thank you so much for joining us. there's going to be a show for this, right? >> we're figuring that out right now, but definitely. >> i hope i get invited. >> you're invited. and your mom. >> mom, she'll love that. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. that is something to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪

hi, everyone, we made it to friday. it's 4:00 in new york. the very first person to earn the dubious of being first -- of the republican party is at this very moment playing a game of chicken with the rule of law with practically every prominent member of the gop either silenced or acting at his henchman, the ex-president is talking like a mob boss, amping up his threats of retaliation against his perceived political opponents and enemies in the wake of his conviction on 34 felony counts for concealing a scheme to interfere in the 2016 presidential election. over the course of a single day, trump openly mused about revenge, not once, not twice, but three times. even when he was practically begged to back off the threats by friendly interviewers. watch. >> i think you have so much to

do, you don't have time to get even. you only have time to get right. >> well, revenge does take time, i will say that. >> it does. >> and sometimes revenge can be justified, but sometimes it can't -- >> but is the country better or worse for them going after you? >> i think the country is really worse for what they've done. >> people are claiming you want retribution. people are claiming you want what has happened to you done to democrats. would you do that, ever? >> look, what's happened to me has never happened in this country before. and it has to stop because -- >> wait a minute. i want to hear that again. it has to stop. >> it has to stop. >> when you ask me the question, would we do it? i'll talk to you in about three years from now. >> nice try, guys. the complete and upper lack of remorse trump is showing in the wake of his guilty conviction, guilty verdict is likely to actually be a factor for him legally in the next chapter of convicted felon donald trump's

journey through the criminal justice system. reporting in "the new york times" that lays out the challenge for manhattan d.a. alvin bragg as he contemplates his sentencing recommendation for the ex-president. trump was convicted of class e felony, the lowest level in the state and could be sentenced to probation or up to four years in prison. alternately what is known as split sentence is possible with a relatively brief amount of time spent in the city jail in advance of a probationary determination. expected to be a factor in trump's sentencing, quote, the fact that michael cohen, one of the exto he can tors. he pointed out that trump's

three pending indictments, his lack of demonstrative remorse, which was given considerable decision during sentencing decisions and the several times he was held in contempt during his trial. quote, you can criticize the d.a. for asking for jail time as politically motivated. that was former manhattan prosecutor duncan levin, quote, but it doesn't mean trump doesn't deserve it. convicted felon donald trump promising to bend the criminal system to his will. that's where we begin with our favorite reporters and friends. david kelley is back with us and normer top prosecutor, doj, msnbc analyst, andrew weissmann and the president of the national action network, the reverend al sharpton. david kelley, how do you see this? >> well, you know, it's really kind of shocking to me. i was struggling to have come to mind anybody who would carry out

any such orders if they were made. as andrew knows having been a prosecutor, as did i, you have the luxury of essentially putting blinders on and doing what's right because it's right. not because of any politics, not because somebody told you to do something. and you take an oath. like any other high government official, you take an oath. unlike any other high government officials, that's an official you bring to life and live each and every day. it's not something you just mouth every four years or whenever it is you get reinaugurated. i think that any real prosecutor in any position in a trump administration who received that sort of order couldn't live with themselves if they're a real prosecutor, if they actually tried to carry out those orders, but it's hard to fathom who would do that, but i wouldn't leave it to chance that he'll find somebody to do that. >> david, what is the right

sentencing recommendation on alvin bragg's part and what is the right sentencing judgment on judgment marshon's part? >> that's a tough question and it's going to take a lot of judgment from both of them. but i think one of the commentators you mentioned at the outset hit the nail on the head. i think that he has an awful lot going against him. he has a lot of factors here that i think would give any defense lawyer and, frankly, any defendant a lot of heartburn as they approach sentencing. he had a gag order. he violated it. he violated it directly. he violated it by being complicit with others to violate it. he has shown absolute zero remorse. he's gone out and done anything he can to instill a lack of confidence in the criminal justice system. he committed a serious offense with lots of victims when you consider the impact that this crime had. and it really comes down -- the only thing he has in the positive column is the fact that he was president. and so, i mean, that kind of

cuts both ways. you put a president in jail, it's hard to look at this if you don't consider that factor and look at all the other negative factors. i think it kind of cries out for a period of incarceration. >> you mentioned blinders, david. if you put on blinders and you had someone who was convicted of 34 felonies who have violated their gag order at least ten times, was unrepent ant and railing against the rule of law, what would you do if his name was joe blow? >> well, to be clear, when you put on blinders, what i mean to say is you put on blinders to outside influences and really -- you really are guided by the law and the facts that come before you that you find. the saying goes, and it's so true, you pursue those without fear or favor. so when i talk about blinders, i'm not talking about blinders. i'm not looking around the world and seeing what's happening so much as putting your blinders on to improper influences. something political or some sort

of bias that you may have. but if you look at this on the paper, i think when you kind of do a scorecard, which judges do, you know, it's hard to see how this wouldn't be justified by a jail term, but i can also see an exercise of reasonable discretion and reasonable judgment by both judgment marshon and by alvin bragg to call for a different sentence. that's really something they're going to have to serve their souls for and determine what they think is the right exercise of their judgment. >> you know, andrew weissmann, at this moment, a.i. and chatgpt, they're still human beings making these decisions and they're still human beings who have to do exactly what david kelley just said, search their souls. if the human being was you in alvin bragg's shoes, what would you do? >> well, i think david has done an incredible job of outlining

the factors. one is you alluded to, nicolle, which has to do with michael cohen. our justice system is -- its fundamental principle is treating like people like. that goes back to ar stotle. the issue are when are likes alike. how do you differentiate or not differentiate? with michael cohen, he pled to the federal equivalent of this charge. as you noted with respect to -- he pled to count 7 and 8 of the indictment. they're the exact equivalent of what it is that president trump -- former president trump was convicted of. and he got three years. that was after he pled guilty and cooperated with special counsel mueller. those two things are reasons for a lower sentence for michael cohen. i think that would weigh on me tremendously because it's hard to figure out what factors there

are for former president trump that are more favorable than michael cohen. there are a lot of reasons to think he is much more culpable because he was the leader of the scheme and it was done for his benefit. so, i think that is, i think, a significant weight that i think would be very, very hard to not give him a jail term. the other is something else that he opens with, which is his ongoing sort of calls for retribution. even when he's being goaded by people trying to help him to say, you don't really mean that, do you? he goes, oh, yeah, i do, imagine any other defendant who says, yeah, i'm planning on -- i'm continuing to rob banks. i think it's a good thing. i'm planning on going after the prosecutor who just prosecuted me. you don't think that is a sentencing factor that the judge should consider? all of that goes into the fact i

think so it's going to be extremely hard to come up with a nonjail sentence. frankly, the only reason you wouldn't is because he is running for president. but i think that factor kind of goes away because he either will lose the election, in which case he can go to prison any day of the week, or if he's going to be president, then the jail term isn't going to really start until after he's out of office. i mean, as a practical matter. i just think it's unlikely the judge will say you have to start the jail sentence between now and the election. and so i think if you take that off the table and you treat him like anyone else, it's really hard to see why, given his -- what he was convicted of, what michael cohen has the sentence and his continued comments and statements, it's hard to see he will not get a jail sentence. >> andrew, i have watched trump

evade accountability with just this question of, what is the point of all of the levers in our system of being on trial, of having a jury, of being -- if you're found guilty, bing sentenced to prison. the point as a nonlawyer is you don't do it again. and i guess in an ideal world, you become rehabilitated before you're back out in the world. in the political context, trump has become an accelerated danger. he gets away with mueller the day after robber mueller testifies before congress is when he calls president zelenskyy and asks for that investigation or to just say there's an investigation into joe biden, right? he gets off of impeachment and he begins his shenanigans to sow doubt about the 2020 election, calling it rigged way ahead of anyone even casting a vote in the election. so, for trump every time he got away with the kinds of punishments that would rain down on any of the rest of us, and

we're fortunate we have access to very capable legal defense, which most americans do not, and certainly a lot of his supporters, i imagine, don't. some of them. and some of president biden's supporters. but his behavior as a factor, explain that to me. >> i was thinking about senator collins' famous or maybe infamous statement after the impeachment that he's learned the lesson. your point is that she's right but not in the way that she intended, which is that he's learned his lesson which is he's learned that no accountability. he can get away with so much without actually being held to account. since he's been out of office, we've seen lots of civil accountability and now we've seen and now we've seen criminal accountability. i do think it will be a hard

decision tore judge marshon because of the fact that the -- not the fact that he was president. it's more the timing of the fact that he's running for president, because you can easily see his determining that he has a job to do and the job requires jail time. it's simply not a condine sentence when you compare it to what others got in a situation like this. just to answer your question. if a defendant is saying, not just i will do it again, but i'm going to seek revenge on those people who held me to account, that is the antithesis of remorse. it is the -- it is a way of saying, i am a recidivist and i'm proud of it. and, further, he's really promoting that. i mean, his -- we've talked about how he is running as an outlaw. i mean, he is running against the criminal justice system. frankly, a civil justice system. all of that is a reason for him

to be held to account when you think about the sentencing factors for judge marshon. and i really do think if you think about anybody else in this situation, it would be treated incredibly harshly. finally, he has had every privilege and it must be galling to people watching this show to think about all of the people who are disadvantaged, who are dealt with in the criminal justice system, very harshly, who don't have -- who aren't raised with a silver spoon in their mouth, who have to overcome adversity and -- not that that's an excuse but it is at least an explanation for where they are and donald trump doesn't have any of that. he's had every reason to be law abiding and not commit these crimes and not to be denigrating

the criminal justice system and also not threatening people who are doing their public duty, whether it's jurors, judges or prosecutors. >> the other thing, if he couldn't take the off-ramp of not being criminal and he couldn't take the off-ramp of not doing it again, the off-ramp available to him after he was convicted was to not be such a jerk, to show some remorse, to stop violating the gag order and he seems to be willing a decision that david and andrew just said is quite possible. >> not only is it possible, i think one of the things that i will be watching, i'm not a lawyer, never been a prosecutor, but i've been involved in criminal justice work through civil rights for a long time, and sometimes i don't know if it's mandatory or customary, judges will let the defendant address the court before sentencing.

if that is the case here, can you imagine what he may say that will push judge marshon? he may get up and attack the judge and the prosecutor and go through all of this and mock the court and put them in a very precarious position because, yes, i think they've got to deal with the reality he was president, but they also have to deal with the reality, if we allow him to continue to break the gag order and then stand in the court and defy us, what precedent are we setting for future sentences? they've got to think about that. i know d.a. bragg, we are praying for his family and him. i've never talked to him about the case. he'll be at our rally in the morning like he's always around gun violence. we don't talk about the case. i have no idea where he's going. i think rather than trying to guess where bragg is going to recommend or his office or the judge, they ought to be concerned about what donald trump may say in that courtroom

if the judge gives him an opportunity to address the court before sentencing. if i was his lawyer, i would be scared to death. >> that's such an interesting point. no one is going anywhere. von hilliard will join our conversation. he's traveling with the ex-president. he was in arizona with him last night. he joins us next. still to come for all of us, we usually see mark meadows running from cameras, but this time he turned his camera on, joining a zoom into an arizona courtroom today. donald trump's last white house chief of staff was at an arraignment for his role in the criminal fak elector scheme in that state. the very latest is ahead. plus, the supreme court's legitimacy problem. brand-new disclosures from clarence thomas confirming some earlier blockbuster news reporting on the extraordinary number of gifts the justice has received from a very, very wealthy, friendly friend. later in the broadcast, president joe biden reaffirming his commitment to rooting out extremism both here at home and

abroad, blasting those who threaten america's democracy. we'll dig into that after we continue after a quick break. tee continue after a quick break

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or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley they did go true that process, the presentencing report. thanks for bringing up a bad memory. it's a horrible process. you sit down with an individual and you basically have to open up your entire life to them, whether it's financial, whether it's medical, you know, they need to know everything. and it is based upon that document that gets submitted to the judge for review and the judge uses that in determining

the sentence. now, here we see once again to mike's point, donald is bombastic. they wanted to call me the bombastic one. they thought i was coming onto the stand with a baseball or 9 iron and start swinging? donald trump is the only one who every single day went out there and attacked everybody. again, he had a whole slew of members of congress behind him doing the same thing. that's going to determine the sentence, including the violations of the gag order, which i believe he did again yesterday. i still think the gag order is in place and his behavior, his ten-minute rambling about me, he's violating the gag order. >> nbc news coverage, and david and the rev are still with us. vaughn, i heard michael say that and the idea that dr. phil can't get trump to sort of focus and come to jesus or level up

suggests to me that he's going to have a really hard time with an individual along the lines of the kind of person michael cohen describes. >>. >> right. and i think also, if i may, and say this on the outset here, nicolle, as someone who watched a lot of dr. phil over the years, if i may, dr. phil is not the same man who had the syndicated show on television for a lot of years. you saw there much in the way that sean hannity was trying to do earlier this week when he was having his own conversation with donald trump, urging him to take the route -- the moderated route of not seeking revenge and not allowing his next five months to be fueled by this idea that he is going to use the white house and weaponize it as an attack on his perceived political enemies. over the course of more than an hour, dr. phil tried to -- somebody clearly was an ally, he perceived donald trump to be an ally of, he encouraged him to take a step back there. you heard it, despite the equivocating, the reality is just yesterday alone he posted,

while aboard his plane here to arizona, a social media post calling for the indictment of the members of congress who were on the january 6th select committee, including liz cheney and adam kin sdmringer. they are it is true criminals and should be indicted. despite the best efforts of someone who may not be advantageous, donald trump, since calling for the citizens arrest of letitia james, and calling for the indictment of alvin bragg. donald trump has time and again continued to show and express what he would like to use his department of justice for if he were to get back in the white house in january of '25. >> we have to go back to dr. phil. i watched a ton of dr. phil. remember the intervention shows. people knew why they were there. it had that feeling, right, where he was trying to help me help you a little bit. say a little bit more about this new dr. phil and say a little

bit more -- as you're talking, i'm thinking of biden's line in connecticut at the beginning of the week that he snapped. you're describing someone that snapped. he also seemed to at least verbally, maybe mentally, i'm not a doctor talk as if he was in front of a texas crowd for a couple minutes yesterday. talk about both those things. >> right. dr. phil when he had a syndicated show, the show he now has, donald trump appeared on, is his own media network that's streaming and he's trying to build it up. he just started in april. that is his new platform. that two decade old syndicated show, like dr. oz, who was welcomed into homes and as a trusted voice, we saw him utilize that for a senate run. phil may be just a few years behind him. the man there was who i think we all became accustomed to, someone who would hold guests on

his show accountable. there was no accountability of donald trump of his alleged infidelities. there was none of that. instead he held imup as a martyr of the political system and felt he has been unfairly targeted. even introduced guests and said, because of you, dr. phil, i now see donald trump in a different light, getting him to hear how he's been victimized. that is the type of platform dr. phil has created -- that's why i use more of a conversation with donald trump instead of one that he was using as an accountability measure. >> rev, jump in on this. the other word for this is the messiah, right, dr. phil has bought into trump as a messiah figure. >> and the real question is, if you're going to bill someone as a messiah, who is he saving you from? we needed somebody to save us from him. we must remember, they're

talking about donald trump like he was not president for four years, with a record, that caused, in my opinion, many people to get sick and if not die because of his mishandling of a pandemic. they're acting like he's a surgeon. the man has a record. and we know what -- >> two kinds of them, right? >> right. now he has a 34-count conviction. so, i think for them to try and recast him as something that we've already experienced for four years is that they're banking on us having political amnesia. >> david kelley, the legal pivot here is abundantly clear but i'm going to make an effort. judge marshon is in this extraordinary position of making the legal decision. but the judge showed such extraordinary restraint when it came to violations of the gag

order, when it came to nonreactivity in a moment to something outrageous and unprecedented. i wonder how you think he thinks of the moment for the country, which feels, to those of us watching like it's about to burst, but to someone who sort of does this and lives this. what do you think his assessment is? >> this is a tough call. this is a judge who shows restraint and shows tremendous judgment, he shows the courage of his convictions and he will consider all the factors that i mentioned and andrew mentioned. he will consider this as someone who was found by a jury as a sexual abuser, found by two federal grand juries to have committed crimes, found by a grand jury in georgia to have committed a crime. it's kind of tough to find a way to impose a sentence that is fair, that represents fairness in how others have been treated.

if it's not an incarceration sentence. but also recognizing the moment in time and whether or not imposing a sentence with incarceration would be a worse impact on society and cause more tumult than it would if he didn't impose one. so, i think it's -- it's obviously a tough call. but i think a reasonable exercise of judgment, it can go either way here. >> andrew, i keep thinking of all the dogs that haven't barked, right? i say that as someone who has two dogs that rarely bark. the idea that new york city was going to burst, right, if trump was put on trial. you were down there every day. there was a space for the protesters. they never needed more space, is the most generous way to describe the enthusiasm of trump's supporters.

he's got an ongoing proceeding at mar-a-lago. he goes in and out of that courthouse. there's not much chafe. the country is handling this, so far, just fine. i always feel like part of what trump succeeds in and part of how he's advantaged by the two-tier justice system that he talks about that he has himself on the wrong end of it is that he's constantly -- he and lindsey graham, supporters are constantly instilling fear that the country will blow. i think he's said it since he was convicted, my supporters won't stand for this. lindsey graham said something along those lines. does that way on judge marshon and alvin bragg? >> to an extent. i think the judge will try to steer clear of those larger -- important larger issues but are not directly relevant to sentencing. for us looking from the outside, you know, these sort of claims

t being christ-like figure, as reverend sharpton says, is easily debunked. if you go to the old or new testament, you can easily turn to the -- this sort of view of false idols and how people worship to them. and i think the way that if i were on the bench considering this, i would look at it in terms of donald trump fomenting within the populous as sort of anti-law enforcement sentiment. that the way that he is undermining -- not just saying, oh, i'm not guilty. almost all defendants who go to trial will continue to say that. but to foment that and to foment the idea it should be taken out

on the participants and to foment that even among people who have taken an oath of office in congress is something that is relevant to considering the gravity of the offense, to the risk of recidivism of this offense. i just want to also quickly point out something that reverend sharpton focused on and michael cohen talked about, is this probation report that donald trump is supposed to sit down and do. just to be clear, he could decide not to do it. and not participate. when that happens, there's a huge adverse inference that the judge can draw a refusal to participate in that process. i've seen it on occasion. it's very rare. and it's kind of a death nail

for the defendant because it's such a sign of disrespect and of recidivism. but it -- this is one where i don't know if you're defense counsel, which is better or worse, in this case, having your client speak is fraught and having him not speak is fraught. it will be interesting to learn what he decides to do in connection with that process with the probation department. >> we'll all be watching. david kelley, thank you for starting us off. the rest stick around. the next up for us, where the republican party seems to be heading this election year with a brand-new stop the steal, as some on the right are just now beginning to face accountability for their efforts -- their criminal efforts to overturn the last election. we'll bring you that story next. . this is a hot flash.

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conspiracy, forgery and fraud. they are 2 of 18 people who have been criminally indicted in that state for their roles in the fake elector scheme. now a political party with its head on straight might, you know, off-ramp here, right, recognize the reality of their situation, that the big lie that resulted in criminal charges across a number of jurisdictions, five states and counting, that this is a big loser. the rnc is doubling down. to help craft its 2024 party platform, the rnc recently hired ed martin, former chair of the missouri republican party and a staunch advocate of trump's actions to overturn the 2020 election and retain power after he lost in 2020. charlie sykes, vaughn, andrew and the rev are here. the platform used to be a real thing with real debates about

some of the most polarizing cultural issues. not as much debate around foreign policy. it used to be a real thing. and the last one they did -- actually, the first one was give russia what they want. the second one was, we're for trump. the third one is now for something that's led to criminal indictments across five states, election denialism. >> there's nothing surprising about it it. it is on brand. they're about to nominate donald trump. donald trump has turned the rnc into a wholly owned subsidiary of his own ego. this is exactly what you would expect. the entire convention will center on the nomination of trump and then his selection of vice president and they are also auditioning. who can be the most aggressive in kissing up to donald trump and embracing his stop the steal rhetoric? this juxtaposition you have is very, very interesting. and i was thinking as i was

listening to you, the question michael cohen was asking after the verdict came down, i think it was on your show, why are so many people in the republican party willing to do things for donald trump that will destroy their lives and careers and maybe result in criminal convictions? this is a remarkable thing. when you look around the landscape of how many people have really destroyed themselves, destroyed their legacies and their reputations, not to mention their financial standing because they were doing what donald trump wanted them to do. look where mark meadows is. look where so many of these people who were involved in the stop the steal are, and yet the entire republican party from top to bottom is all in on this and will continue to be through november. >> what's the answer? i haven't stopped asking why. i know a lot of people. i knew dina powell very well, i know john bolton very well. why are they part of what is now

literally a criminal enterprise? >> well, you mentioned, some people who have broken from all of this, but it is fascinating to me watching all of this and you and i have been talking about this for more than eight years and it continues to be amazing, the decision people make. and many of them are simply making this -- >> charlie sykes has frozen. charlie, we will -- we'll fix your shot. >> vaughn hillyard, behind dina powell and john bolton if they don't go in, and he's right, they have broken with trump, there will be others behind them. he's capable of recruiting new, in a lot of instances, more radical, more extreme members of the republican ranks to service his lies, service his destruction of democracy, service his destruction and weakening of nato. what's in your head? what's the best answer to why? >> number one, because it's how

donald trump wants to govern. we have seen time and again over the last eight years the question of whether donald trump would try to bring in more moderate figures, individuals who had more established contradict in history, within the government or even u.s. congress to try to even out and provide a different sort of point of view from a conservative standpoint. and donald trump has expressed regret about several of those individuals who he did bring in that first go around in 2017 during that transition process. for him, he has noted he made mistakes in -- during that first administration by bringing in people who stood in the way of achieving what he says the administration could have achieved if they had not instituted their own self-barriers in there. we know that already there are two prominent organizations that are allied to the trump campaign that have already been building out a personnel database and been -- that includes not only

those potential cabinet secretaries who are vetted and have a history downloaded as to where their positions are, is it to the extent it runs parallel to the maga doctrine of donald trump, but even below that, who is going to oversee the agencies, who is going to be the undersecretaries within these departments and agencies? this go around, unlike in november, december, january of 2016-2017, they have already been working to hand over donald trump a road map of individuals who are identified, who would be loyalists to, in their vision, a maga inside the white house on year one. >> just to tie it welcome back to where we started, that's the platform. that's available to anyone like vaughn at the rallies, covering these events, it's all out in the open. we'll get to mark meadows today. we have to sneak in a quick

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>> they all knew, they all knew they were involved in a criminal undertaking. your thoughts to the meadows news today. >> once again, mark meadows is really at the center of all of this, but your point is exactly right, that they knew in real time that this was -- that what they were doing was a violation of the law. you know, can i just go back to your previous question why everybody is doing all of this? because one of the main reasons that they're all falling in line and saying what donald trump is demanding they say is that they do not want to become liz cheney. they fear becoming liz cheney. now, liz cheney, i think, is an honorable, decent woman of integrity who will be remembered well by history. that's not what they want. they want to be part of this. they want the jobs, the power, the access, the continued relevance. i think as we go through this split screen of 2024, and we'll spend a lot of time having a split screen, keep in mind all of the republicans who have had

this moral and political decision to make about that character. they say, who do i want to be? who do i want to grow up to be? do i want to be someone like a liz cheney, an adam kinzinger, or am i going to do what everybody else in this cult is doing? do i want to be like jd vance, do i want to say the things donald trump wants? i think you're seeing the way the party is going. but the fear of being excommunicated, the fear of no longer being part of that tribe is so of that tribe is so dominant and pervasive, i find it bizarre, because it's not that great to be part of that particular tribe these days, is it? >> also, rev, it's engaged in the greatest shift to an autocracy that the planet has seen. i accept that explanation for jd

vance and the other jeans. ram aswammy, but why cornyn? why isn't mcconnell even -- >> i think the statement they want to be relevant, they want to be in the game, so to speak, and they have decided that donald trump is the game. but the game is a criminal enterprise. the game is going down not, as he stated, you will be looked upon in history in a certain way, but looked upon as one who really brought this country to the brink of an undemocratic, autocratic society. who wants to be a part of that? >> i get they want to be part of the gang, but to do what? >> to do what, is the big question. they're dealing with a guy they

know will cast them aside any day. it's not even like i'm part of this cult, and we're going to heaven. this guy you almost have to get up every day and wonder if you're on his good side. i think there has to be a deep insecurity about people that can be connected, and connect their future and their family's future to somebody like that. >> to grown men and women. it's all so disgraceful. charlie, vauj, andrew, rev, thank you for spending this friday afternoon with us. catch more of the rev this saturday and sunday at 5 p.m. on his show. coming up in the next hour, some justice for the families of sandy hook elementary. we will be right back. sandy hook elementary. we will be right back.

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right-wing conspiracy theorist, alex jones, having trouble forking up the money he owes to the sandy hook victims, filed to liquidate his personal assets yesterday. that means the families who were victims of his lies are one step closer today to receiving the money alex jones owes them. they have yet to receive a penny. it paves the way for info wars, the platform founded and used by alex jones to spread his lies, to no longer be under his

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i'm a conservative. >> i've been a lifelong conservative. >> former president trump is arguing at the supreme court -- >> that's a president is immune from prosecution. >> if a president -- >> the damage it will do to

america is incomprehensible. >> that should scare the heck out of everybody. >> no one, including the president, is above the law. >> we all will to live under the rule of law. >> accountability is so essentially to making a democracy work. his again, everybody. it's now 5:00 in new york on this friday. a group of conservative republicans sounding the alarm about the irreversible harm form the united states supreme court could do to the country and democracy if they decide that the disgraced ex-presidents is indeed above the law. the threat is compounded by clarence thomas and samuel alito, who has person ties to the attempted overthrow of our government. an ethical rot further highlighted by today's release of the supreme court justices' financial disclosure forms "new york times" is reporting that clarence thomas has finally

disclosed luxury trips paid for by harlan crowe, amending his 2019 disclosures to reflect the trips he had taken to an inniece island and a secretive all-male club up in california in the red with thes. redwoods. pro publica has -- this is a part of the pattern on the part of justice thomas. he previously amended his tremendous disclosures to reveal gifts and favorable deal only after being uncovered and revealed. clarence thomas has defended his billionaire-funded vacation spree, claiming the trips didn't need to be disclosed, in part, because crowe didn't have any business before the supreme court, a dubious defense that

also turned out to be a lie. it is only a drop 2349 bucket of thomas' ethical quagmire. it's being reported he has received millions of gifts, 103 gifts with a total value of $2.4 million, between 2004 and 2023. the judicial reform group fix the court said in a report thursday. fix the court identified another 101 likely gifts with a total estimated value of almost $1. million that clarence thomas received by free trips and free lodging from harlan crow, and the exclusive bohemian grove club. kanting those, the haul is valued nearly $4.2 million. we start with the aforementioned

group fix the court, gabe roth is here. also joining us is melissa murray, law professor. matt dowd is back, and with me for the hour, molly john fast is here. gabe, i start with your thoughts. >> thanks for highlighting the report we put out yesterday. clarence thomas is head and shoulders above the other jurisdictions in terms of largess. even though he announce he was including retroactively he go, a trip to bali and bohemian grove in 2019, that's just the tip of the iceberg, there are dozens, if not hundreds of gifts, in terms of private jet flights, trips on yacht. meals and lodging at luxury resorts that justice thomas is

refusing to disclose. the trouble with the disclosure today, the amendment that said he went to bali, all he mentioned is the one night in a hotel that harlan paid for. he didn't mention the yacht that got him to said island in indonesia. he didn't mention the plane that got him to indonesia. both of those are reportable gifts the fact he left those out is, in effect an ethical violation. >> what kind of people go to bohemian grove? >> uh, old dudes? wealthy -- >> normal, is it expensive? members? >> it's very wealthy, exclusive club. i have seen pictures of it. you know, ken burns is hanging out with the koch brothers. it is generally sort of the upper echelon of society in

terms of wealth. harlan crow is able to, as a member, bring a guest. it costs him about $3,000 times each time justice thomas goes with him. it's the mukety mucks of the rich. it's out of a scary movie about world domination, and frankly a supreme court justice shouldn't be within 3,000 miles of. >> so put a pin in that. that's so interesting. here's clarence thomas talking to "60 minutes" talking about what he wants us to believe he likes to do in leisure time. >> what kind of engine. >> an 8-v 92. >> one of his passions is this 40-foot-long motor home you find

this relaxing? >> yeah. it's away from the meanness you see in washington, you get here with just regular folks. it's so pleasant. [ laughter ] >> the regular folks. are there any regular folks, gabe, at the bohemian club? >> more gullible steve in that, not following up. you still make $300,000 a year. justices such as kavanaugh and jackson made payouts for the books they're writing. justice thomas made a million and a half on his memoir. $300,000 is about four times the local median average in d.c., so you're not poor. you can travel. if you want to go to the

redwoods in california, can you pay for it. if you want to go to indonesia, you can pay for it. you shouldn't be relying on a connection to a megabillionaire. >> and the rv was a $300,000-plus gift -- wait for it -- from harlan crow. >> i think the reporting is important, it's a great complement to the work that propublica has done. what it makes clear is all of the justices are receives gifts, but no one in the expansiveness that justice thomas has. if you think about the period in which this study took place, justice thomas during that period drew a salary from the supreme court, and the total of the salary for all of those years was about $4 million, roughly equivalent to the amount of gifts that he took in as

well, as fix the court has reported. he has one legitimate income stream, and then this offthe books income streams he's disclosing in fits and start, and only because they reports have dug in and pieced together these things. he's only disclosing because he has to. he's been caught. >> it is rv is a gift, it is valued in excess of $300,000, but the wealthy donor in question seasonal harlan crow, which gets to your other point. clarence thomas has received $4.1 million of gifts. the other justices, $248,000. it's such an outlier. at what point do we reverse engineer that and look at what

$4.189 million have bought for the people who made those contributions? >> again, this is not the tip of the iceberg here, nicolle. this is a lot of money. these are a lot of gifts. other justice have received gifts. justice jackson reported tickets to beyonce concert. that's just the tip of the iceberg. they also talk about justice thomas attending koch brothers events. they have fueled this effort to bring a series of cases that are now pending before the supreme court that have the potential to completely dismantle the administrative state and basically derig late huge swaths of industry in this country.

justice thomas is palling arrange with them, and often times a draw that people are coming to see. it's not just partiality here, or perhaps pals around with millionaires, it's the fact that he's perhaps using the trappings of his office as a draw to bring these people in. >> matt dowd, there's something so kin cal, and i know you talk about servant leaders, wherever they sit on benevolent public service, it feels like you have to travel time zones where he sets on that spectrum. >> nicolle, i think you used the appropriate word, which was rot. that's the disturbing part of it. now we're seeing what we thought

was an ethical supreme court, the rottenness there. in the last week, major league baseball and the nba have banned players for betting on their own games, in the last week. they were betting on their own games and other games in the course of this. when you have a supreme court and a supreme court justice who is less ethical that is the major league baseball and the nba, you've got a problem here. it's not just like if it's even worse with clarence thomas, he's actually the bookie, because he's taking the money and they're betting on that these people that are giving this money, that at some point in time, it's going to pay off in some way, whether it's a direct payoff, which, if they have a court case or once removed, or more broader an ideological payoff. that's the real positive. this is an ideological payoff for the bookie clarence thomas, who takes this in. it's such immense corruption

that we see in the coarse of this, but to me, it's another example. i don't see any reps standing up and saying clarence thomas should be remove from court. they don't say any of that, and now they're accepting the fact that immense corruption and rot at the supreme court, it is the furthest away you could get from a servant leader and believer in the constitution. >> matt, we were part of the republican party at a time when the supreme court, the makeup of it, and its decisions on hotbed cultural brought republicans to the poll, than repelling them. how to democrats implement a successful strategy of making voters understand that they're the only ones with a card to play, right? with any agency, if they don't

like this current makeup of the supreme court. to me, you can't do a bank shot on some individual decision, and then say behalf this person, this individual decision, whether it's dobbs or some other decision, to me you have to make it a broad are indictments of what the republican party and all their answer later entity stand for in this. i know we'll talk later in the hour of joe biden speech on democracy. this is democracy at stakes. if you don't have an ethical supreme court, you really don't have what our founders envisioned as a constitutional democracy. it was one of the three branches to stone by the letter of the law. if i was designing an argument, i would make the supreme court another example, along with all

the stuff in the republican house and republican senators, that is basically another attack on democracy in that exists in our country. >> matthew went big as he's known to do. i will try to stay there, which is hard. the hard wiring of the journalists that cover trump as, quote, enemies of the people was designed for instances like this. clarence tom mass issues these disclosures after -- on the other side of the investigative journalism that won a pulitzer, that began to tell the country a story about the rot at the supreme court, in terms of a lack of ethics and the perception of politics, having sway there 689 it's part of what's on the ballot as well. donald trump is running as someone who has viewed the press as, quote, enemies of the people in hissery day as a candidate. >> autocrats don't like free

press, bay they gum up the works. we wouldn't know any of this if it wasn't for propublica. i think we see that thomas -- what i think is interesting about thomas and alito -- there's other conservative justices on the court -- thomas -- got millions more than everyone else. >> combined, yeah. >> he hasn't disclosed all of it, so i do think that this is, you know -- i just think if the parties were reversed and ruth bader ginsburg got millions more than the other justices, there would be hearings and -- we would not stop talking about it. you know, democrats still control the senate. they could have hearings, and make this a huge issue, and they should. i'm not entirely sure why they're not, because sheldon

whitehouse is ready to go. >> gabe, this is it. the disappointment is probably the nicest word i can use to describe how most members of my audience feel. i've a number of democrats on the judiciary committee, and their answer is they really can't do anything. is that true? >> of course not. there's a lot of things that could be done. it's a matter of whether or not you can keep the democratic caucus together to do it. one, there's a razor-thin majority on the commit year, i think it's 11-10. there are some democrats on the committee who are not so gung ho to issue subpoenas. i don't want to betray confidences, but it was a tough slog to get subpoena to leo. the second thing is that there

is a bill that would have a more binding code of conduct with more -- it would have a binding code of conduct and a bunch of other things that would improve the ethics. it passed through the judiciary committee last year, awaiting action on the floor, but it's been waiting for action for a very long time. the house will not doing anything with it. the senate could theoretically pass it, but it's a raidsor thin authority, and it's likely that the jon testers and joe manchins of the world don't want to vote for that bill. i think that is a calculation being made by the majority leader. i think information is power. holding senate hearings, having more senate briefings, there is stuff going behind the scenes, there is investigations into some of the alito statements we

know are untrue, so there are things that are happen, but the public-facing version would be critical. if it's not in the news, if we're not thinking about it, you know, it might just go away unless everyone in the senate watches your show, which they should, but i don't know if they do. >> i think if anyone is looking for political courage, they should find it in the poll numbers, only 3% of all merges approve of the supreme court. 6 is% disapprove, and its decisions are getting opposition from many, many more americans, upwards of 70%, 80%, opposing some of hoot button decision. thank you, with your help maybe we'll stay on it. matt and molly stick around. for more news and analysis on the supreme court and all the big legal stories with he cover here, sign up for our newsletter.

you can scan the qr coat right there on the screen right now. there it is. sign up to get it every friday. when we come back, president joe biden casting the election in stark tunes, but a dire warning that autocracy really can happen here. what president joe biden said in his beach today high above the beaches of normandy. next, how revenge and recrimination have become the currency of our politics. longtime pin writer frank bernie will be or guest with his new book. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. inues after a. don't go anywhere. are two things i want from my metastatic breast cancer treatment. and with kisqali, i can have both. kisqali is a pill that when taken with an aromatase inhibitor helps delay cancer from growing

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a very moving scene today, president joe biden speaking at the powerful pointe du hoc, marking the d-day just like president reagan did 40 years ago. he reflected on the bravery of the rangers who scaled the cliffs, and how american democracy, then and now, needs those people willing to fight to protect it. >> as we gather here today, it's not just to honor those who showed such remarkable bravery on that day. it's to listen to the echoes of their voices, to hear them, because they are summoning us, and summoning us now.

they ask, what will we do? they're not asking to scale these trips, but stay true to what america stands for. they are not asking us to risk for lives, but they are asking us for care for others in our country more than ourselves. they're not asking us to do their job. they're asking us to do our job, to protect freedom in our time, to defend democracy, to stand up aggress from abroad and at home. a solemn moment there honoring the brave americans who made sacrifices for this country. president biden's situation here at home is impossible to ignore and hear in those remarks. in less than five months, he will face off against a presumptive -- who has repeatedly praised and sided with an elevated and met with,

dined with, confided in the world's most brutal dictators and aspiring autocrats. the deadly serious stakes of the 2024 election underscored in a new ad pud out by the biden/harris ad. >> announcer: as the sun rises, we raise the flag, a symbol of what we hold dear. the values that built this country and still beat in our hearts, but they're under attack by an extreme movement that seeks to overturn elections, ban books and eliminate a woman's right to choose. joe biden has made defending our basic freedoms the cause of his presidency. he's running for reelection to finish the job, to protect the freedom for women to make their own healthcare decisions, the freedom to have our children safe from gun violence, the freedom to have your vote counted. the sun will not set on this

flag. american democracy will not break. >> i will defend our democracy with every fiber of my being. i'm asking every american to join me. during our conversation, staff writer at the new yorker, where she writing the weekly column, susan glasser is here with us. and founder of the democratic majority pac, salary mcgrath is here. i was making a list of those critical of donald trump's fitness. milley, kelly, matt is, pence by the end, bolton, sue gordon, jena haspel, how do they turn it into something digestible.

>> it's very interesting, this phenomenon of what you might call trump amnesia is a real thing. i'm struck by how many, even critics of trump, have sort of lost the plot. too many details in the past have receded. again and again, what we experienced in the four years when trump was in office was the phone call was coming from inside the room. the sources for the book you mentioned, the divider, the sources for some of the most critical statements i have ever heard about donald trump were from people who worked directly for him. not partisan people, i should point out. either republican-appointed officials, elected official or nonpartisan career national security people. those are people who worked with trump who have been the source of, by far, the most scathing portrayed imaginable, and i have reconnected with many of the sources of our book this year.

they go on in such terms, that he is unfit for office. they're shocked that people have chosen to forget so much about it. >> are they interested in helping people remember? >> that's a good question, nicolle. you know, i think there is a lot of concern that i have heard over the years, especially in the national security world about further politicizing our military, for example. there was a lot of blowback in 2016 when you had a democratic former general and republican former generals endorsing candidates, and that was seen in a way as playing into trump's hands to politicize the military. so, i think it's a fine line. i know there's a lot of frustration that some of the folks you mentioned haven't been more public in their concerns and qualms about the former president. >> amy, one of them was

indicted, pleaded guilty multiple times before being pardoned by donald trump. i too hear from some of these folks i named, their deal feeling is generals shouldn't tell people what to ask for, i think they should do, if you see something, say something. that's it. is that fair, amy? >> stand up for our country. they wore the uniform. i wore the uniform for 24 years. what i'm doing now is simply standing up for our country the same way that i did while wearing the uniform. you see this happening. administer mccraven came out with an op-said talking about, is this the country we want to have? i think what president biden is doing with his ads that you showed, it's really getting to

the heart of patriotism in our country. i live in kentucky. you walk down main street, any small town here in kentucky, what do you see? you see on the lampposts pictures of veterans, all the way back from world war i, world war ii, some who came home and some who did not. that's america what president biden is doing is showing people the stark difference between himself and a guy who calls those very hometown heroes suckers and losers. he's going to continue to talk about that. >> amy, i had this conversation with anthony scaramucci, who was inside the white house and has remained close to some of his colleagues, about those comments. and also i had one of the press agents tasked with trying to knock down that fantastic

reporting in "the atlantic." i shook as i read that on the air. the thing that unites every american commander in chief is reverence for the men and women that do the thing that lets us live here, lets us be americans, to live freely. that is only possible, because people volunteer to fight for our country, and, if necessary, to die for our country, to suffer extraordinary injuries and come back -- it's the most extraordinary group of americans, and trump has now been proven to have described them, as you said, quote, suckers and losers, especially the ones who get injured and died. does everyone know that? does everyone believe it? what do you think? >> well, this is the challenge that democrats have. anybody who loves this country and doesn't want donald trump to get back in the white house has. we have to remind americans that

this man doesn't get it, that the rest of us that honor veterans who go down main street and get it, you know, where our kids bike past these, you know, pictures of people we revere, that we honor those cold warriors, the people who fought and died on the beaches of normandy, to give us what we have today, that he doesn't get it. trump doesn't get that. look, i mean, it shouldn't surprise us. he called john mccain a guy who send years in a prisoner of war of war camp in vietnam, he called him a loser. i mean, c'mon. what people have to do is keep talking about this. this man does not represent us. president biden does, and that's what he's doing out there in europe, talking about democracy, talking about freedom, you know, bringing our allies together

with nato and all that he has done. that's what america stands for. that's the message you just have to keep saying it over and over again. >> all right. we have so much more to get to with this extraordinary panel. i have to sneak in a quick break. we'll all be right back. break. we'll all be right back. good soil, and you get good results. look at that! the broccoli was fantastic. that broccoli! i think some of them were six, seven pounds. (dad) we never thought that with verizon, saving on the the best in entertainment them was gonna be so easy before... we had to pretend we had seen all these shows... now that we have verizon, we can stop pretending. (vo) disney+, hulu, espn+, netflix and max. all for just $20/mo. only on verizon. (mom) my turn. (vo) in two seconds, eric will realize they're gonna need more space...

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one's country is worth dying for, and democracy is worth dying for, because it's the most deeply honorable form of government every devised by man.

>> american democracy asked the hardest of things -- to believe we're part of something bigger than ourselves. democracy begins with each of us. it begins when one person decides there's something more important than themselves. >> i count that as the second time that president joe biden has sounded a lot more like ronald reagan. >> the point is there was a time when republicans used to fight nazis, and not cozy up to them for votes. i think biden is trying to remind voters that the republican party of reagan and bush is much closer to the democratic party than it is, certainly values-wise to maga, which is totally isolationist. even mitch mcconnell, again, not a liberal, had an op-ed in the

times, when he talk about the danger of being an isolationist. maga is just a huge divergence from american politics. >> how has this not been disqualifying? >> i think it's a boiling of the frog problem. as i listened to the previous discussion about it being the anniversary of d-day and ronald reagan's remarks, and joe biden's remarks, which is so on point about what this campaign needs to be about. omaha and utah beach, the soldiers and the men that went there were told 50% of them would not survive before they landed. 50% were told he would november

survive. more men died on those beaches than died in 9/11 in the first 30 minutes on omaha and utah beach, that day. we're not asking -- this is what's so frustrating and makes me so angry about the former trump people that kinda say something, but won't stand up for it. first, they took an oath to the constitution of the united states, first and foremost, not to a person. that's what i don't get. that's where their first loyalty is, to the constitution. we're not asking them to put -- to get on a boat and land on am omaha beach. we're asking them to say something. that's such a weakness that's been shown. these are all people that celebrate d-day, celebrate memorial day, celebrate our revolutionary fathers and mothers who died, celebrate the people who died through all

these battles and war throughout history, but today when we're under a similar battle on behalf of democracy, they're unwilling to open their mouth and say this other guy is unfit for office, is a danger to democracy. that, to me, is so incredibly frustrating on this anniversary of d-day. >> who would you like to see most speak out, and what would you like them to say and to whom, matt? >> do we have another four hours? [ laughter ] >> i can make a 30-person list. >> i think, to me john kelly at the top of this. this is a general that served, he has a son that has served. this person saw donald trump up close and personal. he says something, he speaks with a miss per and quietly goes in another room and won't say more. if you can band these folks together, take the par sanship

out of it, saying don't listen to the democrats or the partisans, just listen to the people that donald trump hired and served with him. we will all tell you that he is unfit for office. the lead of that, in my view, that i would like to see is john kelly more front and center on this. >> susan glasser, he's on my list as is mark milley, and chairman mark milley writes this in a resignation letter that you got your hands on. while listening to biden's speech i thought about a resignation letter that mark milley wrote, but did not sent hem in 2020. it is my deeply held believe you are ruining the international order, causing significant damage to our country overseas that was fought for so hard that they instituted in 1945. milley said in the letter, a draft of which i obtained in the course of write ago book on the

trump is that sit -- it's obvious to me you don't understand the world order 678 you don't understand what the war is all about. it gives you chills to the last, you know, little extremity, and just, wow, the power if he were to say those things on a convention stage or in an interview. >> you know, nicolle, when i recall when i first saw those words and, you know, as you said, i've been a journalist in washington for decades, a foreign correspondent, in some ways, i felt this was one of the most significant documents i had ever come across and had the chance to report. to have a chairman of the joint chiefs, who is not only our most senior military official, but absolutely nonpartisan, sworn to uphold the constitution, to have come to believe as chairman

milley did, that donald trump was in effect a rogue president. he was in effect the president was the greatest threat in some ways to the united states, this was really, i think, an under-appreciated, even a historic moment that occurred. you know, the question that bedevils all of us, is what to do about that. i thought there was a power in putting that quote out there in my column. i thought biden's speech in normandy yesterday was also very powerful, making a connection between the challenges in world war ii and bringing it up to a present moment, where he defined his fight route now against putin's invasion and trump's isolationism as a way twin problems. it's extraordinary to have the top military official say that the commander in chief of the

united states does not believe -- does not subscribe to the values we fought for as a nation in world war ii. >> it's extraordinary, only echoed in the other extraordinary journalism by yourself and others that mirrors the views of john kelly. to be continued. i'm grateful to all of you. thank you so much for having this conversation with us today. when we come back, longtime opinion written frank bruini, what he calls this age of grievance. frank will be our guest after a short break, don't go anywhere. short break, don't go anywhere

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we thought we climbed every mountain, and then...

ll cool j. turkey club. thank you, thank you. i know. keep it together. progressive can't save you from becoming your parents, but we can save you money when you bundle home and auto with us. -wow, you're tall. -ugh. the disgraced ex-president's ode to revenge and retribution uttered this week, fueled by what he truly sees as the ultimate badge of injustice, a criminal conviction by a jury of his own peers, a new level in what frank bruni calls into his new book "the age of grievance." "you can see that what seemed to be many of us to be aheady markers of long-awaited and hard-fought progress, were prove

investigations, and were less likely to raise a white flag than dust off a confederate one. he took full advantage of that impulse, not only validated that convictions that they had been neglected, but also blessed whatever meanness they mustered. joining us at the table. ought thor of the new book book, frank bruni. i went back and look at george panner's books, and i feel like people at people like yourself tried to get at this thing that disaggregated us as community members and neighbors and only after that happened could trumpism prevail. >> he is the beneficiary of a world in which none of us is consuming the same information. he is an america that turned pessimistic. we don't talk a lot about this.

the whole psyche of the country is ruptured. when you no longer believe tomorrow will be brighter than today and trust that the economy is going to grow. when you tell pollsters no, i am not confident my children will have a better life. you have a completely different relationship to those around you. we need our leaders to push back against that and encourage collaboration. what too many leaders are doing is that they are playing to our worst impulses. they are tilling our anger and exploiting our divisions for short-term gain and we are seeing the cost of that. >> democrats chafe at some of president biden's commitment to working in a bipartisan manner. that is clearly the way he is wired. he had some republican partners in trying to do something at the border on immigration. trump celebrated blowing that

up. what do you make of the enduring optimism of one guy's leader to try, and i am not saying he succeeds every time. and the complete opposite of the brand of the other guy's nominee, burn it all down. >> that so exaggerates the country's problems. listen, i think biden's greatest strategy going forward if he is re-electing and i am wishing and praying every moment he is reelected because of the alternative. >> it is the most unifying. sarah longwell said something so clarifying and liberating. the largest coalition of a belief system in the country is an anti-trump belief system. >> joe biden needs to do two things. remind americans he has made the country better. there are elements of his record he can stand on. yes flaws. yes short comings. you know this better than i do

nicole. elections are about contrast. when the debate comes along, i think joe biden as to go on to the stage. he has to not be lured into a shouting match with trump. he has to show what he showed in the 2020 primaries which is why he won the nomination over other qualified democrats running against him. he has to show he wants to unite us. i think there is a real hunger for that our politicians are not taking advantage of because they are so busy dividing us for short-term gain. >> that is interesting to go back to the democratic primary. i think he won and owes a lot of that to jim cliburn and his unique gift of rallying support in south carolina. what do you make of one party's leader is a perceived moderate,

and the other is the most extreme version of a conservative republican that ever existed? >> that we need to re-elect joe biden. >> yeah. >> you know donald trump is taking the wager if he adds together the people that are disappointed in biden enough where they are looking for an alternative. donald trump is the change candidate this election. that is surreal because he had four years in the white house. he is also gambling if he can make his base angry and vicious enough he will get a degree of turn out joe biden won't. what democrats and joe biden need to do is to make sure that the people that prefer biden and that type of vision, that they feel empassioned and motivated to turn out. that is the game trump and his enablers are playing. >> what does the book sort of explain about the neighbor on neighbor, you know, canceling

people. targeting people in education because of a belief system people don't like. that plays in to more of the politics on the right. how do people remedy that and move past that and resist the impulses. >> whether we do public policy. whether we do it with the way that we coach young people to use and not use the internet. we need to encourage the passing paths that don't cross. that happens when you see the people unlike you or disagrees with you as characters and distractions. >> we will get off tv, and it has nothing to do with you or me. anyone gets out of the public space and there are plenty of people that say nice things, probably more about you than me but plenty that attack and criticize and the culture of

meanness. is the internet an accelerator of this? >> it is. i will write something. they will go off on me. it will be the ugliest. if i write back in a tempered way even though we still disagree they are full of apologies. >> what do they say? >> i did not mean to be that cruel. i have become a flesh and blood human being as soon as i am responded. we need to find ways. we lost community and we lost the crossing of paths. we need to find ways to motivate people to spend more time with people that are not like them and design a society that encourages that. then we are less cruel and judgmental. we see people being as complex and complicated as they are. >> right. a person that has to let the dog out. i hope this is a conversation

that we can continue frank bruni. it is great to have you here at the table. the book is called the age of grievance. it is an important thing to read and take in and internalize as to what could be a rough year. we want to thank you for letting us in your homes. "the beat" starts after a short break. don't go anywhere. r a short break. don't go anywhere.

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welcome to "the beat," i am ari melber. we begin tonight here ending what has been a busy week with the united states confronting the aftermath of the conviction. it was actually just a week ago