because it depends. if there is a conviction, that is something that can be appealed on the law. if there were legal mistakes that were made, if the jury was instructed improperly on the law, if evidence was kept out that was material, improperly, those kinds of things can be appealed, and it can take quite some time, and so there is recourse there, so really complicated, but let me just say thank you so much to our incredible team. it was really great to be here girding out with lawyers, and all of us having been in the courtroom. thanks so much for your perception and insight and personal stories and thank all of you for spending the last hour with us. if you can't get enough trump news, and you want to dig even deeper, try the msnbc podcast, " prosecuting donald trump," hosted by mary mccord and me.

have a great night. have a great night. >> we have never had a significant anniversary of d- day for democracy and western democracy felt is under threat and front as it does this year both in europe and at home. >> what do you make of donald trump's threats to jail his political opponents? >> we have to take donald trump at his word. i think there is nothing that will stop him from doing such things. >> the jury in hunter biden's trial was just dismissed for the weekend after emotional testimony from hunter's daughter. >> we will wait to see whether hunter biden will testify in his own defense on monday.

>> will you accept the jury's outcome, their verdict, no matter what it is? and have you ruled out a pardon for your son? >> yes. >>'s first public campaign stop since his guilty convictions. >> if we don't win, this country is finished. i really believe that. i think it's finished. >> i refuse to believe that america's greatness is a thing of the past. >> at evening. once again, i am stephanie ruhle. we are hung 151 days away from the election and the contrast between the two presidential candidates cannot be more clear. this week, president biden took action to close the border then travel to france for the 80th anniversary of d-day for he stressed support for allies. donald trump, on the other hand, rallied against his guilty verdict, the judicial system then threatened to seek revenge against any possible

person who has slighted him. let's bring in our night cast and discuss this. lynwood stead, cocreator of the daily show also the chief creative officer of abortion access front. host of the podcast pablo tori finds out and host of the masters of the game, and show, [ inaudible ]. when we look at this week you have president biden talking about freedom and the fight against tyranny, both 80 years ago and today, and then you have donald trump talking about how revenge is justified. talk to us about where these two campaigns are and where they appear to be headed. >> tyranny of the past and tyranny of the present is basically what we are talking about. where are they heading? sometimes i honestly look at these two things and i think, will this election simply come down to will trump have more

dissolution people that will show up, or will biden have more disillusioned people that would show up, and that scares me because i feel like for those of us doing the work, in the streets every day, defending people's freedoms, if trump wins again, what we are facing is no dissent, and with no dissent, we can't challenge any of it. >> but, if he wins again, there are no surprises about who donald trump is. in 2016 you could make the argument. people don't realize who he is. remember all of these people were going no, you don't realize what you're in for. america knows exactly what they're in for. >> you know, there seems to be a lot of delusion. we hear a lot about the trump era was great. the trump administration was great is if covid just didn't happen and some reason that those last two years just don't count against his record. >> i don't remember covid but i definitely remember

infrastructure week. >> you know, i feel like trump is the most selfish person in the world and everything comes down to how it revolves around me personally, every political issue comes back to me, myself. this woman asked him, this reporter asked him, katie from alabama wants to know what is your relationship with god and he said i do very well with the evangelicals. that is not the question you asked. and biden, to me, seems very outward, right? she's thinking about others. how can i help other people? think about the key moment of his life like losing a major chunk of his family and one horrific moment, as a relatively young man who learned empathy and to think about others and the importance of family, and this other person , who every bad characteristic we don't want our children to have, he has. o have, he has. have, he has. >> i think the way you said,

what is the question being asked is instructive to what the biden campaign should be trying to do, which is framing this beyond even needing to pay attention to the news day at today. it's more a choice between extremism and not. i just wonder why we are not generally describing trump more as an extremist. mp like, forget about -- then again, let's not forget about the people on the ground doing good work. when it comes to what are we expecting out of this, do you want someone who feels like they are attacking every institution? do we need to recite the litany of felons and felonies? let's just talk about not being that. >> here is why i think possibly this is playing out. president biden is focusing voters on democracy and on freedom, and these are fundamentally important things. but somehow, they get viewed as something kind of lofty ideal,

and trump goes straight to the gut and grievance. >> because people don't know what it's like to not have it. i lived in russia for 6 years. they didn't understand democracy. they didn't know what it was like not to have the possibility of being randomly arrested. but can i just go back to the beginning of the show? all that stuff in this montage, did that happen just this week? and there's 151 days, which is 21 weeks if my math is right. i wonder if i have the stamina to make it if this is one weeks worth of stuff. i really think this is going to be rather a dramatic cost again. biden is going to really have to bring home what is the e absence of democracy, which is a very tough thing. whereas, trump has only to sell, look, we can do all these things and everything can be great, and rule of law is not a significant thing people think

about. >> trump is a great salesman for his diseased ideas, okay? biden has not yet shown himself to be a great salesman of his t ideas, what he has done, and there's a very significant and h real and honest critique of biden from the left, that he has not done enough on what is going on in gaza. and there are a lot of people who would be democrats otherwise who will not support e him because of that. >> i hear you. what is the conversation to wh have with that voter, about what former president trump will do with the situation in gaza? was it not nikki haley a couplei of weeks ago when she went over there and said, finish the job? >> what liz said about the margins is important. don't think about the potential, the imaginary hypothetical biden/trump voter. i don't think those people really exist. there's a couple, but not many. the election is going to be about, can trump get people who

would say, it's either trump or a state home. and either it's biden, or i stay home. the election is going to be won on those margins. and you know, biden does have this significant issue, right? there's a meme going around right now on tiktok, you may have seen it. >> home of misinformation? >> we can talk about that later. but gun to your head, would you vote for biden or trump? and he said, the gun would go off. >> the meme has been shared by people who won't go for any of that. >> biden should be also as popular as the field, broadly. you want trump, or anybody else? we are at a point where trump is not just specifically dystopian in the ways we may remember or not, based on our experience during the pandemic. he is also just clearly against the rule of law as a concept.

i think the question of democracy is, how do you make , this a tangible, scarier thing? i think talking about democracy as a concept is a little pie in the sky. democracy dying in darkness didn't really work as a slogan for the washington post. >> but this week, with the s remembrance of d-day, it wasn't just the stark contrast between president biden and donald trump . it was also between donald trump and ronald reagan. ronald reagan gave one of the most important speeches of his presidency in normandy. he stood against russian aggression. he stood with his nato allies. w is there a question to ask of ue all republican voters -- where has your party gone? because the current gop and be what donald trump represents there's almost no resemblance to ronald reagan. you saw joe biden looking almost reagan -like and referencing him while he was in france this week. >> i mean --

>> i'm just not going to go down that path, because i'm t somebody who doesn't have friends who are alive because of ronald reagan's inaction about a.i.d.s.. i think about waxing back to people who laid the foundations for this, trump didn't come to m us in a vacuum. he came to us because people laid foundations for hatred and bigotry and sexism. i feel like so when we go -- i don't want to go back to the party that i could recognize of ronald reagan. but i do want to say people that we are leaving out of thisv conversation are the voters. i am constantly saying to people, the election is not the end game. it's the starting game. you get the democracy you want and you get the democracy you participate in. and who do you mowant to fight? that is my whole thing. would you want to fight? you want to fight a madman, or somebody who might listen to you where you can get the meat needle moved? >> i don't think the race is

going to be won by biden. all of our polling shows people are most concerned about inflation, they are most concerned about jobs and the co economy. democracy should be like this de wrinkles you get with the ice e cream cone. >> but we have a functioning democracy. you can throw your economy out the window. >> finish your thought. >> i was just going to say that if he doesn't win it on the record that he is running on, and -- >> which is a strong one. >> which is a pretty strong one. and a vision of the future. i don't think he wins by saying i am a democracy guy and that ha guy isn't. >> were talking about two different languages about the people who may vote for biden and who may vote for trump. this is not about issues at all. this is about personality. this is about who you believe. the people on the right, they talk about earth one and earth

two. people on the right live on earth two, and we can sit here and go, nothing you believe is factual, right? we can go on and on about january 6th, climate change, the trial. but they are affirmed in their miss belief constantly, and they think we don't know what's real. >> this is why i feel like the whole felonies thing should and hopefully does cut through to a silent majority, not to a vote for reaganism inadvertently, but a silent majority of people who are like, i am in earth 1 resident, i just not that part of it. and it's like for me, a bridge too far is on we have a convicted felon surrounded by felons being, again, in the white house. i just feel like i want to simplify it down to, do you do want the felony guy, or anyone else? >> and donald trump wanted more than his base. wouldn't he be doing everything possible to court the nikki

haley voter? he disrespected nikki haley in every possible way. yet still, she endorsed him. if he actually wanted to win, what did he say, she's my running mate, let's go for the gold? instead, it's president biden this week trying to put together a coalition to go for those voters and risking losing progressive voters in the mix. >> i don't know that they were so psyched about nikki haley. so i think they were just like, i don't want trump. i'm not like everything about nikki haley is just awesome. people weren't saying that, you know? and so i feel like him going for that voter, we saw the numbers after iowa. was a 28% of those people said if nikki haley is not the nominee, i could possibly vote for biden? when trump doesn't go out and try to expand his base -- >> he never has. >> let me finish. l why does he -- what is even

doing? i should be the sign to everybody. he's not looking at a world for you. >> can i do some of these -- i might mess up the order of your show here, but when roe was first overturned, we saw abortion rise up to the top of issues. since then, we have seen it fall down. i know the democrats are making a big deal of abortion this year. you think it's something that motivateshi voters? i don't think it's going to be democracy. i wonder if it's going to be abortion that trumps the economy, for lack of a better term, and becomes a real motivating issue. >> well, i am the right person to ask. only because i am -- you might not know this, i am on the ground all the time talking to people. and this is where democrats are actually making a mistake. i do think abortion polls better than politicians, right? and these valid initiatives that we are seeing in over a

dozen states were initiated by the people. not by politicians, but by people. people who held their abortion stories to themselves for years, saw this as a time, and this is in a couple of people. you have to get 200, in florida, 900,000 validated picturesa, to get it on the ballot. the question is, will people vote for biden in the initiative? what we saw in kansas, the very first one, is that people voted overwhelmingly for their abortionwh initiative and still voted for some of the people who created the laws in the first place. so what we should carefully be looking at is, these initiatives i think are going to greatly help with senate races in places that will be surprising, congressional raises, and will people say, i'm going to go foro biden, and that's a question somebody needs to answer. >> we could do that in the next poll. >> please do.

>> the president of pretty aggressive action on immigration this week. it's been a vulnerability for him. republicans are going to say it is too little, too late. >> for one thing -- >> just to be clear, republicans have done nothing on immigration and have blocked doing anything legislative. >> this is how the republican party has shifted the overton window in their direction, right? we talked about the border. biden and the border and immigration. the immigration is not a central issue in american life. it is not the source of crime. it is not changing the economy. republicans have made at this central issue. >> hold on. whether it actually is an issue in daily life or not is somewhat irrelevant, because republicans have been successful in convincing -- >> they have made a stink about it when it's not as important as they want it to be. >> i think this is the frustration for anybody was not

trump, as you are running an election, a campaign, and administration i think based on a practical execution of increasingly moderated policies, and donald trump is running on vibes. it's a vibes based campaign. and the fuss question, fundamentally -- >> why is this too polite a word for it? >> ancient nightmares awakened in the bloodstream that feel like they are being threatened by non-threats. >> i'm sorry, i did a review on this. i want to see the person advising biden on immigration policy fired. i think he's behind the curve on this. he let the republicans take this to a place where it shouldn't go. >> from a narrative perspective, but not for me policy perspective. >> why couldn't he have done that months ago? right? the same exact -- >> hold on. you can argue with when he did it, but -- now he's doing it.

what have republicans done? >> nothing. they have objected to a deal that was apparently done that was agreed to in the senate. >> they want to continue to cause the problem. >> there were some issues where you want to take on the lack of facts, and the misdirection had on. this issue of immigration, i think should be one that is approach with much more sympathy for people that are afraid and scared. and i think rather than head onr -- >> the immigrants who come here? >> people in montana who are worried about people crossing the border in mexico. >> could never make it to montana. >> and west virginia? >> this is what is motivating them, and i think that there was a way to address this in a way that is more understanding and less in your face.

>> more understanding of what white people in montana think? >> here's why, because they vote. i don't think steve is saying, because they are -- hold on a second. i don't think that steve is saying that person in montana is right, i think what he is saying, is they vote. so at the very least, you have to acknowledge who that person is, where they are. >> the issue is already coddled them immensely by wrapping them in this notion of the demonization of -- i mean, so many americans would think of immigration and think of somebody getting murdered by an immigrant. but that is not the core of our relationship with immigrants in this country. and the right has made at that. >> the most important word that you said there is need. because they made at that, because they solidified this falsehood, you have to at least address it and try to start solving for it. >> and you understand how >> people are scared? >> who is scared? white people? >> white people.

>> we are continuing to be asked to be sensitive to the fears of white people? >> it doesn't matter if they are real fears. they vote. >> general human empathy is essential to anybody sphere. >> i think we are also trying to do empathy, but a cold little calculus about getting their votes, even with in a way that damages them in terms of their sense of security, sense of self. se i just want to ask, what does it take to coddle at the abstract montana and was afraid that someone in mexico is afraid they are coming for their job? >> there's a community i know no in wyoming. they had no people from south america. all of a sudden, they have 12 people. this was a huge change for themt and all of a sudden, they had to teach esl. >> guess what? that town in montana or wyoming had jobs for those people.

>> those people added to the pl jobs and there were people to do the jobs that they were doing. all of that is good. i'm just saying, the change, the challenge makes people uncomfortable. i'm wondering before we take wo them head on if there's a way to talk to them in an n understanding way. >> this is bigger than the immigration, because this is the republican pattern. create a fear that is not real, passed legislation that only harms other people, then the fear stopped because it never existed, and they think they ex won. they done it with abortion, they done it with trans people.t there are kids that are peeping and cat boxes. no, there isn't. if there was kids pooping and cat boxes in schools, high school kids would have put it on instagram. do you know what i mean? and so, to me, it is a microcosm of the playbook. and how do we dismantle that

playbook to stop having that fear, and stopping the bs around it. >> we have to go to commercial, but i don't actually think you and steve disagree. i don't. >> i'm not prioritizing the feelings of white people, so we do disagree. >> i think that all steve is trying to say here is, these people and their fears -- he is not saying let's appeal to them, what if we simply ignore it, then we are sending those people into trump's arms. >> we can practically see the statue of liberty when we walk outside this building. we are supposed to be a nation that welcomes immigrants. none of us were born here, right? but now, we have this very hateful xena phobic approach to a certain kind of immigrants. it is disgusting. and the notion that we should ti kowtow to the fears that have been grazed on these people and

fox news -- >> i'm not saying you're kowtowing to anything, but if you don't at least speak to that person, you are sending them into the arms of donald trump and going, why on earth are these people voting for donald trump? i'm not saying they inshould beg coddled, but should we at least acknowledge them and get a basis of truth back to the center? >> this is part of what we are talking about when the new york times does, what's going on in the world? we asked 12 trump voters. we don't care. we don't have to be constantly checking in with what they think. >> i also think it's the responsibility of white people to educate other white people. >> i'd like to know what it would take to achieve the persuasion that immigrants are not so scary. i would like a practical i proposal before i decide to sort of center the feelings of t people who are fed lies. >> what if you didn't reject the fears?

i'm not talking about coddling ' the fears of white people. i think there are plenty of black and brown people that arew concerned about immigrants coming over the border, taking their jobs. >> nobody's taking anyone's jobs. >> true. i'm just saying. >> there could be a rainbow coalition of people who believee that. >> would have a right to be concerned and not dismissed those fears. >> someone else's yelling at me, and it's a producer. me we have to go to commercial. there's five people yelling. when we return, the last four years have been great for the wealthiest americans, so i want to know why so many of the richest of the rich are opening their wallets, their heart, their minds, and buying into his propaganda and pushing hi donald trump. i need some answers to this. phenom caitlin clark gets hit checked and starts a bigger conversation about women's basketball in our nightcap on

the 11th hour. whoa fleas! and ticks! (♪♪) intestinal worms! whoa! heartworm disease! no problem with simparica trio! this drug class has been associated with neurologic adverse reactions including seizures. use with caution in dogs with a history of these disorders. for winning protection— go with simparica trio. ♪♪ jardiance! -it's a little pill with a ♪♪ ♪♪ big story to tell. ♪♪ ♪♪ i take once-daily jardiance ♪♪ ♪♪ at each day's staaart. ♪♪ ♪♪ as time went on it was easy to seeee, ♪♪ ♪♪ i'm lowering my a1c! ♪♪ jardiance works twenty-four seven in your body to flush out some sugar. and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. serious side effects may include ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function,

and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction. you may have an increased risk for lower limb loss. call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of infection in your legs or feet. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪♪ jardiance is really swell ♪♪ ♪♪ the little pill with a big story to tell! ♪♪

hi, i'm janice, and i lost 172 pounds on golo.♪ when i was a teenager i had some severe trauma in my life and i turned to food for comfort. a friend told me that i was the only one holding me back from being as beautiful on the outside as i am the inside. once i saw golo was working, i felt this rush, i just had to keep going. a lot of people think no pain no gain, but with golo it is so easy. when i look in the mirror, i don't even recognize myself. golo really works. craig here pays too much for verizon wireless.

so he sublet half his real estate office... [ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg's moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities.

in the weeks since donald trump was found guilty of 34 counts in a new york courtroom, some of the wealthiest americans have come out to announce their support for him. steve, i really want to talk about this, because just in the last week, donald trump has this new crop of not even your average wall street business. i mean the top of the top most successful. coming out, throwing parties for him, supporting him, and they are even making arguments that are not true. i've heard some of these guys say, when joe biden passed that last covid relief which killed us in terms of inflation, unemployment had already completely recovered. that was a lie. and an uninformed voter might not realize that. i'm talking about the most informed voters are pushing trump lies on there -- in a

field that is their own expertise. >> it's quite extraordinary. the most cynical answer, they are protecting their tax cuts. corporate tax cuts are going to be on the table in 2025. if you end up supporting trump, you're most likely to hold onto those. either way, i don't think trump is going to address the deficit at all, either. the record shows that perhaps some of the fiscal spending had a part in the inflation, it was more about supply shocks. the inability to get it things into the country. a reduction in the ability to spend on services, and barbecues and stuff like that. that shot up. we had problems with some of the food distribution, and that has come off in a very big way. by the way, don't overstated, staff, because biden has plenty of very wealthy donors. you are right to point out how extraordinary it is that some

of these folks, especially in tech land, are the ones out there saying, i'm going to vote for trump or for example, david sachs tweeted today on the economy is just to be amazed that a guy with that much money is so awful. >> here's the thing. i get that inflation is difficult. these people that are now supporting donald trump have had extraordinary -- extraordinary last years. what was it announced? is worth $8 billion? everything president biden has done for electric vehicles, a huge win for elon musk to get them rallying against this disastrous economy when it's been a perfect one for them? >> taxes, let's start with that, and then get to realizing that for these guys, and silicon valley, is ashley, shame feels like a market inefficiency. like, hold on. if i don't have to care about the judgment of people who are paying attention to the news,

maybe i can do the thing that donald trump offers uniquely in my memory of american presidents, which is the ability to dictate actual policy. the ability to get favors. i feel like this is the other part of the trump administration echoes unfavored, because he is for sale. look at the adelson family. go down the list of donors and what do you get? and so if you're tech billionaire ceo philosopher king -- that's what these guys really want to be -- they may think trump is an idiot, and i think they do, but they also think they can puppeteer him and ways and they can help him run the country. that is something that joe biden does not offer them. >> in some way, is this like creating putin's oligarchs here? >> you know, i'm listening to you, and i'm like, i can't believe were here again talking about trump again and again. >> there's a real chance he

might win. the reason why jail does not work as a deterrent, is because a lot of people do us dint in prison and they come out and they go, well, i can do that. now i'm going to go back to the street, because that wasn't that bad. for a lot of people, it's like, we survived trump. it wasn't that bad. covid does not count on his record, for some reason. we can do this again. and it doesn't make any sense. >> and i give a footnote to the oligarchs story? a lot of those guys ended up exiled or dead. i don't think a lot of these folks understand the final end result of autocracy. >> you are asking for people to have something beyond short- term is him. but see, we are talking about hugely successful masters of the universe who believe, well, that will never happen to me. you know that's the way they all think. and none of them think trump is clever. >> i think they also are

missing -- getting back to the first conversation we had -- the essential connection between democracy and free market. what makes free markets work is a rule of law. and if the rule of law is something that is on the whim of the president, you have a real problem with your free markets. >> liz, let's talk about these loud, influential voices who are suddenly backing former president trump. why they would be doing it. i understand inflation has been really difficult. you want to buy a house, rented apartment, you want to get any insurance. things are really difficult. but suddenly, this group of people backing the former president, it doesn't even make sense from a policy perspective. why do you think it is happening? >> when you think of how many of them are adjacent, this is not my wheelhouse, that i do see and have met and have been hit on by very, very rich and powerful men, and all those

zeroes don't add inches. and somehow, i think they do. and if that stays in the show, i'm proud of you. because honestly, i -- i don't have an answer, other than -- >> it was a family show until now. >> but -- what is the draw? what is the thing you are missing? what is the emotional thing you're missing? >> talking about the intellect of these individuals, so much of it is about the performance of personality that trump offers the ego. if you have a massive ego with these masters of the universe silicon valley and wall street, i completely understand what you rock with trump. because that is my kind of guy. that's the guy i want to be with. >> i'm also just not convinced that they actually like him. >> i think they are unbothered by the performance that trump

does, which is a key, sort of like a visceral distinction that i have with these people. but also, i think what they want is power. trump offers them power. >> you can -- these guys right now believe that they can purchase a back phone into the oval office is donald trump wins. somebody on tv just said to me the other day, yeah, what if donald trump turns on the? he might, though. and joe biden definitively -- >> i think we make a mistake in this country is that, because you made a lot of money here, you must be smart about things over there. >> correct. >> they do it all the time on cnbc and it's something i disagree with. but have a billionaire in office and ask him what he thinks about healthcare. unless he made his billions in healthcare, i'm not really sure i care. >> that's a great point. >> it's interesting, but it's

not essential. >> it's interesting as we talk that the pronoun him has been used a bunch, as we've been talking a bunch about men. even when you said, because they make money here, they don't do it over there. when you think of somebody who is a julian air, like the woman who invented banks, she is a julian air. sarah blakely. people are going to sarah blakely -- what you think is going on over there? >> i don't anybody is asking these guys. these guys have realize they can become business celebrities. you think somebody a year and a half ago said, what does bill ackman think about anything -- nothing. no one asked. >> he became a twitter personality. and the adrenaline addiction is real. they are all addicted to dealmaking. >> this is part of capitalism, that people who succeeded the most and capitalism must be the most intelligent people in the country. trump succeeded in capitalism.

>> he did not. >> he did. he took a big chunk of money from his dad. but we think of him -- he is so dumb. he is proof that you can be wealthy and dumb at the same time. >> is also not a successful business person. when we return, fans love her, but caitlin clark is getting a mixed welcome. why one foul has people talking. the 11th hour and the nightcap. thank you now, save 40% on the sleep number special edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. shop now at sleepnumber.com

what is cirkul? cirkul is the fuel you need to take flight. cirkul is the energy that gets you to the next level. cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. cirkul, available at walmart and drinkcirkul.com. ♪we can secure our world.♪ ♪watch out for offers too good to be true.♪

that's phishing! ♪someone's trying to take advantage of you.♪ learn more at cisa.gov/secureourworld ♪that's how we can secure our world!♪ ♪we can secure our world.♪ ♪don't just use a password alone.♪ ♪mfa sends a call, a text or a code to your phone.♪ learn more at cisa.gov/secureourworld ♪that's how we can secure our world!♪

basketball star caitlin clark continues to grab the spotlight as her wnba career kicks off. but it is a foul against her for nearly a week ago that is still in the headlines. pablo, she got body checked by another player. why are people still talking about it? walk us through what happened. >> on some level, it's a simple story. it was a hard foul, and it had to be assessed as a flagrant retroactively. the reason it has continued is because it fits into this largest tory, which is less and less about caitlin clark and a through line for today show perhaps, and more and more about us, the voters, so to week. it's a perfect culture war story. >> uninformed voters versus informed voters. >> i want to address the feelings, because these are sincerely held.

it is more than just the great white hope. it's more than just a minority group in this sport actually being a majority outside of it. the wnba, famously, is 68% black women. and so you have this star that is bringing record ratings, real business for the first time in the history of the sport, and simultaneous to that, you have a lot of people who pre-existed in the sport who built this sport and are saying, we have not felt the advantages of being the majority group and a business that now everybody cares about. and so a lot of people have a point. is my point here. caitlin clark is a great player. she deserves her conversation and the hype and the attention and the money, and at the same time, those are advantages that are not granted to others because there's a novelty as well as the substance to it. it's an endless culture war story, which everybody can get mad at each other for a long time. >> i think i also feel the

resentment of the women who are already there. you think this college kid is going to come in and dominate us? at the time, it seemed you guys are being rude and resentful. no, actually, it's very hard to move from college to the pros in any sport, even if you are maybe one of the best, if not the best college player ever. we are going to do this entirely differently. we are stronger, faster, more experienced. slow down. don't think you're just going to walk in and take over. >> i have nothing to say. i'm pretty sure the economics, i will be talking about sports. >> i think there's some confusion here. suddenly, the wnba has all of these fans, and they are watching a game -- a rough game that is played year after year. but suddenly, the first game they've ever seen, the player who they love seeing get pushed around, it was a republican lawmaker -- we are going, this

is just how the game is played. >> with a feel that way if it was angel reese who got knocked to the ground like that? >> she did get knocked to the ground like that, and nobody cared. sports are supposed to be fueled by hatred. i bad blood. by feuding. this is stuff that is great. part of the reason i want to buy stock -- business metaphor -- in the wnba beast because people are invested in it emotionally. it comes from having bad blood. the thing that is dystopian -- >> i love dystopian. >> is that we are talking not so much about the story and more about how everybody hates everybody else because they see themselves in it. and for me, it becomes a culture war story. and when i say it's an endless forever war of a culture war story, i mean, it is because in sports, we are still arguing

about whether lebron james or michael jordan is better. we have been doing that for decades upon decades. but the point is, this is not a thing that can be solved this positively by play. it's a thing that's going to be about, again, how you feel. and being a minority group in a majority female black sport, outside of that sport, your afforded advantages that track with the money and the attention and the privilege. it's like, it's fair to object to all of this, and it's fair to also say you are making too much of it, because isn't she just a basketball player? >> i just want to also say -- i think it's also fair to say that caitlin clark knows the game that caitlin clark is in. and she ain't saying anything. it's like when the whole taylor swift beyonce feud was happening. and they were like, there ain't no feud. that happens in this sport.

and so i just feel like caitlin clark is not screaming, there's a whole lot of thing, and what you said is real. >> it's an important point, because race is always a part of sports we don't always talk about. it's always there. and not just what happens on the floor, but also because the vast majority of people who cover sports are white and male, and generally, they are covering -- especially in basketball, covering a lot of black people. in this situation, you see the white girl who is supposed to be, you know, the new star was changing everything, and she gets thrown to the ground by somebody. the white pundits especially are like, oh, my god. could you do that about her? >> it's a lot about the fact that the sports analyst are men. i've seen black sports analyst this week go on and on shocked by this, saying these girls out there, they're bringing girls to each other.

the same sports analyst watch football year after year. they watch rookies get the crap kicked out of them and they're like, that is how the game is played. when it comes to women doing it, it's like, look at these mean girls in here. that's nonsense. >> they demand, overwhelmingly, it's not that the rest of the wnba is jealous and seething like this is a high school cafeteria over caitlin clark. but there are a couple of people who feel that way. if you were to tell me watch this clip of angel reese celebrating caitlin clark falling to the ground, i can't convince you objectively that she is not taking some enjoyment. now, does that rise to the level of jealousy and mean girl stuff? i'm not going to categorizes as such, but i believe enmity and bad blood can coexist. it's just when we over characterize it as, this is a sport where they should not happen. all sports are fueled by this. >> this is my observation.

i don't know if it's true. there's less contact in -- >> there's even more in the wnba. >> it is more physical. >> yes. >> those ladies know how to get it done. all this talk about the wnba, is it helping the game? that's what i want to know. when we come back, our nightcap returns with our mvps of the week. you do not want to miss it when nightcap continues. nightcap continues. hi, i'm kevin, and i've lost 152 pounds on golo. i had just left a checkup with my doctor, and i'd weighed in at 345 pounds. my doctor prescribed a weight loss drug, but as soon as i stopped taking the drug, i gained all the weight back and then some. that's when i decided to give golo a try.

taking the release supplement, i noticed a change within the first week, and each month the weight just kept coming off. with golo, you can keep the weight off. what is cirkul? cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. cirkul is your frosted treat with a sweet kick of confidence. cirkul is the effortless energy that gets you in the zone. cirkul, available at walmart and drinkcirkul.com.

scout is protected by simparica trio and he's in it to win it! simparica trio is the first chew with triple protection. whoa fleas! and ticks! (♪♪) intestinal worms! whoa! heartworm disease! no problem with simparica trio! this drug class has been associated with neurologic adverse reactions including seizures. use with caution in dogs with a history of these disorders. for winning protection— go with simparica trio.

our nightcap is still here with our mvps of the week. liz, who had the biggest week in your mind? >> what are my heroes, peppermint patty murray from washington's date who took on an antiabortion position, who spoke in front of the senate, and actually lied about -- that iuds were actually an abortion, and patty murray called her out on it. it was a public service to everybody. an iud prevents implantation of a fertilized egg. you cannot have a pregnancy unless it is implanted in the uterus. that is a fact. and that dr., was somebody's doctor, lied in front of the senate. patty murray was like, smack down today. go patty. >> i know they're yelling because were going to run out

of time, but we should just think about this for a second. that person who sat there and told that live for the political agenda is somebody's doctor. >> yeah. >> i want to go in a different direction. corey harris, who became viral out of driving to his zoom hearing about driving with his -- >> walk us through it, because people are not going to know this name. >> he drove to his zoom hearing with the judge on his suspended license hearing. everybody was like, oh, my god, what an idiot. shirley made some bad decisions, and it came out that he is actually never had a driver's license. but the end result of all of this is that he ended up in jail for a nonviolent defense. he wasn't even intending to hurt anyone. and it is easy to look at an individual and say, you should have behaved differently. it's more important to look at the systems and the institutions and say, you should behave differently. why are we using jail as a

corrective for something like this? a nonviolent offense like this? we are over incarcerating nonviolent offenders way too much in this country, and this is a prime example of somebody who should not be a judge. there are many other ways to make the situation work. >> cindy young is the clerk for esmeralda county in nevada. she is undergoing withering criticism and a recall petition. she is a republican trump supporter, and there are people in that county that believe that there was problems with the election, is trump only won a county of about 700 people by about 82%. in this wonderful story in the new york times about this clerk was being criticized by her neighbors and all the people she has known for life is a reminder that democracy is not a mountain. it's not a building. it exists because of local officials, and the reason why the 2020 election was not overturned was because of these

actions by these local officials. these people, i think, democrats, republicans, non- partisans, are all heroes that make democracy still exist in this country and don't take it for granted. >> i am on a bipartisan crusade of my own. >> good luck with that. >> red panda is somebody you may know if you seen a basketball game. she happens to be the greatest halftime performer of all time. red panda is the older chinese woman who gets on a unicycle, gets elevated many feet into the air, balances balls on her feet, and kicks them onto her head repeatedly. the crusade i'm on after watching her perform in game one of the nba finals yesterday is simply this. the basketball hall of fame has never inducted a halftime performer. it should be red panda, and i want to address america and the world on my

various social media platforms, i have a change.org petition. this is a real thing. all of you guys at this table need to sign it. i'm begging you. we need to demonstrate that this person, red panda is a part of history and should be remembered, to me, as such. >> we are ready to sign it. all right. my mvp are the families from sandy hook elementary school. newtown, connecticut. if you remember, talkshow host alec jones spread lie after lie of what happened in that elementary school in connecticut. the families of those children, those five and six-year-old children who were killed, sued this man for defamation, and they won nearly 1.5 billion dollars in damages. all sorts of cynics out there, me included, thought, they are never going to see the money. a guy like this is going to move his assets, it will never

happen. on thursday, yesterday, alex jones filed for chapter 7 bankruptcy, basically liquidating all of his assets. why? for the families who faced the most devastating loss and then had to hear the lies that he pushed. this was all made up, and these families of said, the money isn't the most important thing. that might not ever happen, but we are one step closer to these families having one ounce of justice, and i welcome that. thank you all for being here. this was a pleasure to have you all. >> thank you, thank you. we are going to be right back. . t know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com.

that is it for us, thank you so much for watching. remember, if your friends are busy tonight, had a hot date, you and can watch the nightcap tomorrow night, saturday at 11:00. he's turn right here on msnbc. for now i am signing off and on that note i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thank you for staying up late with me, i will see you tomorrow. i think back and i go, this was such a senseless murder. and why diane? why,