now today's other top stories, this comes one day after several shark bites in the area, three people were injured. >> take a look at this, a major landslide is closing a critical highway linking idaho and wyoming. the collapse of teton pass was a catastrophic failure and couldn't be avoided. thank flip nobody was injured. >> and overseas this is kind of gross. south korea is resuming propaganda loud speaker aimed at north korea. aimed at north korea. i bet you all a very good day from msnbc headquarters in

new york. welcome in to "alex witt we reports". we begin at the top of the order following three breaking stories. an nbc exclusive that donald trump will be interviewed by a probation officer tomorrow. we have more on that in a moment. new details on israel hostage rescue on saturday. and then this just in. an benny gantz and his party resigning from the israeli war cabinet, a huge development. we have more on that in a moment. meanwhile, gaza's ministry of health says more than 270 sa palestinians were killed yesterday, 700 injured. israelis officials are disputing this number. new reaction to the number of on palestinians killed. >> civilians were killed. that is tragic. it is heartbreaking. i said before that the palestinian people are going through hell in this war. they are caught in the crossfire. hamas hides among civilian infrastructure, they ghhide underground.tu

it puts the palestinian people t in harm's way. pe >> when we snatched the hostages, when we extracted them out, the forces came under extensive attack in an attempt to kill both them and the hostages. ♪ ♪ right now, president biden was on his >>way home, having wrapped up his trip to france is to commemorate 80 years since due date -- d-day. donald trump declined to visit o the cemetery when he was president. >> the idea that we are able to avoid being engaged in major battles is just not realistic. that is why it is so important we continue to have what we

have. >> we have correspondence in >> place covering all the new developments to us. let's get right to it. let's go to las vegas. le what do we know about this nbc exclusive on this new meeting tomorrow and how might the trump team prepare for this probation interview? he is kind of busy the next few hours. >> reporter: that's right. he will be taking the hostage here shortly in las vegas. he there will be temperatures up to 100 degrees today in the las vegas son -- subject. upon his return to mar-a-lago tonight, we have learned he t, will be sitting down along the virtual zoom session with the probation officer in new york for a sitdown interview. this is where the probation officer, head of his sentencing on july 11 is able to as donald trump questions about his financial background, his mental state, his ability to hie interact with other criminals and if he has any remarks about the actions that led to his conviction on the 34 felony charges. for donald trump, of course, this is a big meeting, a

probation officer will ultimately prepare a report that he or she will provide to judge juan merchan to help the judge make the determination of what sentence he will hand down to donald trump july 11th. for donald trump, being on the campaign trail, this is his first public campaign speech since the conviction in your. for him, taking his message on k the campaign trail is integral h to his ability to stave off a potential prison sentence. there are a great many of supporters that understand and at largely donald trump's complaints or grievances stemming from the charges in the cases brought against him. here is one woman we talked to a few moments ago. >> reporter: donald trump, if he does get back in the white house, which won him to seek retribution against those who have brought these charges against him? >> we think about jesus christ n

himself, everybody went against him because he was preaching love and doing what was right for the people. trump is doing what is right ng for this nation. because he is doing that, everybody is against him. >> reporter: marjorie taylor greene, the congresswoman from georgia, was just on stage and j inmate -- mimicked what that person just say, said jesus christ was a convicted felon and they and supporters of donald trump should do what they can d the next five months to ensure a victory in a battleground state like nevada. ev it is politically fraught. donald trump is doing what he can, understanding the justice system is working and ultimately, sentencing will happen regardless of what he or his supporters believe should be taking place or transferring -- transpiring out of this trial. -- there was a lot of noise in the background. that person you interviewed, i h thought he was actually going th to go and say donald trump was preaching love. [ laughter ]

really? anyway. thank you, my friend. we will see in a bit. coming up, we will speak with e the state attorney from palm beach county, florida, about president trump probation hearing and all the information the officer will be asking him and how rare it is to be over soon. let's go to breaking news out of jerusalem. there has been a major shakeup in israel's government. you forecast this, you knew it was happening. here is what has w happened. benjamin netanyahu's rival, benny gantz, announcing his department will depart from the emergency government. how important is this? m s.t.e.m. you give me too much pocredit f predicting all this. my crystal ball is a working. this was supposed to happen last night. this announcement was made three weeks ago. benny gantz had said if he did

not get to his liking some sort of guarantee from benjamin netanyahu, the prime minister, that he had a plan for the postwar governance of the gaza strip, which, by the way, has been a firm issue for the m united states and the biden administration, as well, he would resign on june 8. june 8 came around, we saw this ca hostage freeing of the four hostages, including the high profile hostage, noa argamani, one of the most famous faces, he the symbol of the hostage crisis here. yesterday just was not a good st time for benny gantz, the ti former defense minister, to step away from benjamin netanyahu's already precarious wartime cabinet but he did it today. one day later. he still said he wasn't satisfied, it sounds like, with netanyahu's plans for postwar governance of the gaza strip. go it also says it has been a problem for the biden administration. there are plans the biden administration is pushing onto the israeli government to include the palestinian authority . they are based to a point not far from where i'm standing now. the impact will be really big. benny gantz was a moderate, one of those people who stood with o the biden administration and with the missions -- officials in washington. he was rated highly in the

international community, higher than netanyahu himself and is very far right cabinet. the departure will not send netanyahu 's cabinet and his administration into chaos, it will not cause more elections in israel, which this country has done several times in last couple days -- years but it will empower hard right wing members and will probably make it more difficult for the israelis to come sort of concession or compromise with hamas in the gaza strip. ha that will make it more likely, more unreachable to see some kind of peace deal, some kind ac of peace fire. the biden administration is everybody else in the world is enpushing the israeli government to do this. secretary of state antony blinken will come here to israel in the coming week

making stops in the region, ki trying to shore up the tr negotiation deal to free the remaining more than 80 hostages still thought to be alive in t the gaza strip, even after the rescue yesterday of those four and possibly bring an end to the conflict in the gaza strip. this latest development in the last couple of minutes makes that even out of reach more. >> let me read you two quotes. one of them came in while you have been talking. the first one is from prime minister gantz and that news conference he made this statement. netanyahu prevents us from moving forward to a real victory. that is why we are rdleaving th emergency government with a heavy heart , but with a whole heart. netanyahu posting on next, his response is, israel is in an x essential worker oh -- on many fronts. this is the time to join e forces. he goes on to say his door will remain open to any zionist party member that is willing to come back into the fold. having said that, i think i

should thank you for your report on we will see you in the next hour. let's go to kelly o'donnell in paris where the president departed a few hours ago. he is on his way back to the u. s. welcome. what do we hear from the president today about his historic trip next >> reporter: well, this is been a trip the president has been able to lean in on issues that are important in the national conversation beckham, in the election season. by doing it from a bworld stag perspective, obviously, the president has been celebrating the long relationship between the united states and france. th he has honor the memories of or the world war ii veterans by r attending d-day commemorations. today he went to a cemetery about an hour outside paris that is the restingplace for world war i marines. ri the president notably made this trip. he will explain why in a moment. in terms of not so recent

history, the last five years, hi president trump, when he was in office and came here to france, it would not go to the cemetery. it was a notable contrast, although the president today did not talk about that directly. the president did emphasize the strength and importance of alliances and why that matters. here's part of what he said ar when he walked over to reporters after paying his respects at the cemetery. >> the idea that we are able to avoid being engaged in major battles in europe is just ba unrealistic. that is why it is so important we continue to have the alliances we have, continue to beef up those alliances, continue to keep nato strong and continue to do what we have been able to do for the last, since the end of world war ii. >> reporter: the president has had many times where he talked

about the concerns of isolationism and the importance of partnerships, like the european friendships he has developed here in france, certainly with nato. next week the president will go to the g7 in italy, another way for him to strengthen and emphasize those partnerships and what they mean. rt his basic argument has been that when the united states has strong alliances, it makes the country safer. that is, of course, an obvious o contrast to the america first approached donald trump talks about at home. the president was careful not to invoke or talk about donald trump will he was you on foreign soil. alex? >> kelly o'donnell, safe travels, my friends. legal analysis ahead of yo ll donald trump's date with the probation officer tomorrow. we are back in 90 seconds. out

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♪♪ back with breaking stories and an nbc expensive report. tomorrow donald trump will support an interview with the new york city probation officer for part of his presentencing requirements for his conviction on 34 felony counts. i want to bring in dave aronberg and sophia . good to see you both again. just the timing of this interview, should it surprise you at all? at this point, before sentencing, it is still over a month away, july 11, what will donald trump he asked? is it

unusual for him to stay mar-a- lago and not have to make the trip to new york? >> good to be back with you, alex. the timing is not surprising but it is unusual, however, to do the interview via zoom. normally you do it in person but nothing has been normal about this case. this interview is again information on trump's financial resources, his family and social network of his mental health history, drug and alcohol dependency issues and to find out about his living situation. if you are going to since and him, for example, to house arrest and mar-a-lago coming out to find out what that means. will all mar-a-lago access to the guy supposed to be lockdown at the social club? could he be confined? they want to know who trump is palling around with. it is possible trump just gets probation and then, if so, he won't be allowed to associate with anyone with a criminal record. that will impact his social clubs , as well. >> that is interest. can you imagine, i am sorry. are we ever going to know exactly what happens in this interview? does it get videotaped? is it something that judge juan merchan, if it is a resume, is

he there with the probation officer, taking notes, as well? is it all up just to the probation officer that will give it to the judge who will consider it for sentencing? >> it is the latter. the probation officer will be there on zoom with trump and todd blanche, trump's lawyer, will also be there. the prosecution did not have any objections because trump is appealing and they want to make sure trump will not harm his appeal and maybe he could get a light sentence here. this will not be televised. that is a problem in your. they are not transparent. we did not see the trial only needed to we will not see this. we will get press access to the report after it is released. will not do much. in the end, the judge can make his decision based on everything he has seen thus far is trump's disrespect of the

corporate he has been so light on him. whenever trump has violated the gag order, he is only gotten slapped on the wrist so why should we think he will throw the book at him now? >> donald trump is plowing ahead with his campaign and threatening revenge against all of his political rivals. how can you make a case for him legally well politically he makes it contradictory? >> i mean, he almost made it so that he has to talk about retribution. the more he talks about this, the more his maga supporters one him to talk about it so they can hear about it. i heard from mike davis, potential attorney general pick for trump, tell me he wants to see more red state attorneys general open investigations. they are very vague. i can't tell you how many questions i have gone from trump ally saying they want to do this and do that. it is built into the campaign platform. "axios" did an analysis of about 50 of trump's speeches and found he talks about policy only 11% of the time.

you can imagine the other 90% . a lot of it is filled with rants about his legal issues. this is only feeding into them. >> if that is true and he can't avoid being very bellicose when he talks about the politics and going after how he has been wronged and blah, blah, blah, how will that hurt him at this particular interview, potentially with the sentencing, as well? will this make a stronger case for putting him behind bars or at least not making this an easy sentence for him? >> yes. trump has to be careful of what he says before july 11, the sentencing date. judge merchan can include his lack of remorse, his refusal to admit guilt, even though it is on appeal, there are things he could say to show he is humble and respects the court and jury's opinion.

he is out there just vilifying everyone and threatening revenge and retribution. the judge should take that into account. for any other defendant who had no prior rap sheet, this low level felony, class c felony, would likely get probation. there is a good chance trump will have the possibility of incarceration because of his conduct. also, it is more likely he could get house arrest. i just cannot envision him wearing an orange jumpsuit at rikers island. >> [ laughter ] i can see your point. sophia, senator marco rubio said it was time to fight fire with fire. other trump allies are pushing republican prosecutors across the country to start targeting democrats and getting at them. what are you hearing from the campaign trail about this? >> so i can tell you that, you know, for everything that his, you know, more conservative

allies are saying, his campaign advisors, privately i hear from his allies, they tell me he really shouldn't be talking about retribution. the more this election is about trump, the more likely he will lose. you know, there are republicans who recognize that if the election is a referendum on biden, trump has a better chance. if he keeps talking about himself, you know, he will have problems. as it pertains to this hearing with the probation officer, the probation officer will be considering, you know, these factors. has the defendant shown remorse? has the defendant shown a good character witness? has he shown good context otherwise? those are big questions and problems for trump tomorrow. >> here's another question for you, dave. donald trump has indicated he intends to appeal a new much money conviction, new headline suggested could be a wild card depending on a huge october surprise. is that something he should be worried about?

>> i actually think trump has a 50-50 chance on prevailing on appeal. there are questions on at the state prosecutor can lean on federal campaign finance law, we just don't know. was judge mershon right to lead stormy daniels to go into such dirty details about a sexual encounter? that could be unnecessarily prejudicial to trump. there are some due process issues, also with the jury instructions. there is a real possibility this thing could get overturned but not for a while. there is no way this could

happen before the election. i think trump will be a convicted felon at the time he is on the ballot. there is a possibility later in 2025 it could get overturned but i don't see that happening anytime soon. >> rocha, sophia, trump campaign officials, anyone concerned at all about a new potential prison sentence in july? trump does not want that. i continue for a fact. he is a huge germophobe. he does not want that. another reason, i think of course, the secret service, the campaign has prepared for the unlikely possibility that will happen. but, you know, realistically, we probably won't see him in jail. -- okay, sophia cai and dave aronberg, good to but, as always. brutal heat is gripping parts of the country. how people are coping and when there will be relief next. ef n.

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jacksonville, florida, where it is already in the mid-90s. millions across the southeast are under heat alerts right now before the heat dome returns for the west coast this week. tell us where we can expect down there in walton county, florida. you made the point a little later it will be better by the water but by how much? >> reporter: well, we have a nice ocean breeze, hence why my hair was blowing all over my face just them. there are other parts of florida not getting the same relief, especially in central florida, closer to orlando. they are expecting record temperatures, record-setting temperatures, rather. we you look at the cities that could possibly break records, the majority of those are in the state of florida but there are some in western texas, which is also feeding into the heat. you can see them back in other parts of the south. we heard from a dad going to

the beach today. >> it is hot. it is hot. >> we are putting ourselves in the water. the beach, yes. it is nice. we have sunscreen protection before we come here. >> reporter: so, we are hearing and seeing a lot of people able to beat the heat by going inside of the water here. people on the other side of the camera going into the pool, which is great, it is wonderful they have that option. it is so important, alex, to point out, all the people, the populations that don't have that option. what we see across the south is people without homes, the laborers, farmers, people who are stuck outside for extended periods of time, delivery drivers, the workers. so we know there is a lot of effort going into making sure

they stay safe at there is a lot of cancer. in terms of when we will see a reprieve, depends on what you were in the country. remember, it was just days ago we just saw that heat dome really concentrated in the western part of this continent. we saw those images in mexico, las vegas and phoenix. right now they might be getting a break but the heat is here in florida and western texas but the heat will shift back out again, alex, in the coming weeks it will be back out west. in the south, when it comes to getting a reprieve, enjoy it now if you have it.

especially with the way we see these trends going, alex, it will be another hot summer. hopefully, unlike last summer, we did see it did turn fatal in parts of the country. we ask people to be very careful and take it seriously if it is in your area, as well. >> construction workers, i was in florida last week and saw some putting in new water piping. i was like, what? it wasn't even as hot as it is today. thank you very much, marissa parra. meanwhile, donald trump's airing of grievances. will they get him many new votes and whether he should accept and just move on next. n i'm officially done switching. (vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon ya know, if you were cashbacking you could earn on everything with just one card. chase freedom unlimited. so, if you're off the racking... ...or crab cracking, you're cashbacking. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or tacos at the taco shack. nah, i'm working on my six pack. switch to a king suite- or book a silent retreat. silent retreat? hold up - yeeerp? i can't talk right now, i'm at a silent retreat. cashback on everything you buy with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours.

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former president trump and his allies have their eyes on payback following trump's new york felony conviction. just today, he said he sent a fundraising email with the subject line, my plan for revenge. he has not shied away suggesting he would use a presidency to go after his

political adversaries. >> it's a terrible, terrible path they are leading us to. and is very possible that it's going to have to happen to them. >> i felt that i could have done it, but i felt it would have been a terrible thing and then this happened to me. and so i may feel differently about it. -- revenge does take time, i will say that. -- it does? >> sometimes revenge can be justified, have to be honest. sometimes it can. -- joining me now is a congressional reporter for the "new york times" and political columnist and host of the podcast, with friends like these. welcome to you both. trump and other republicans have gotten surprisingly bold with calls for prosecutions against democrats. marco rubio said to fight fire with fire, stephen miller said, isn't every republican d.a. starting every investigation

they need to right now? are there real plans for retribution here? >> i think when people tell you what their plans are you should listen to them, you shouldn't just say it is nothing. they are encouraging district attorneys across the country right now who want to make a name for themselves to begin charging democrats. they want revenge. they are being very clear about that. donald trump is verbally flirting the idea out there that he, if elected, will direct the justice department to go after his political rivals. and, you know, say what you will about president biden. there are these prosecutions but they have been adamant that president biden has nothing to do with the justice department. in fact, merrick garland, the attorney general himself,

wouldn't even touch these cases. that is why he is signed special councils to these investigations. and so, on the democratic side, there are all these checks and balances into the rule of law. trump is just opening -- openly saying he plans to direct these investigations himself. i think we should take what he is saying very socially. -- by the way, good work on that report i just put on the screen. how far can a grievance campaign really go? how much is there an appetite for americans, especially at the expense of focusing on more court proceedings?

>> well, i am not sure it matters. you know, trump's behavior was the same in 2016 the same as it was in 2020. he won one race and lost the other. is anyone who covers a campaign knows, the people who show up at campaign events are not necessarily the people who end up winning the election. a lot of people voted for trump, despite his personal behavior in 2016. in 2020, i am not sure what people voted on his personal behavior. what is really important here, we should take trump seriously. i should be very clear. he does plan to engage in revenge. i think that is bad for democracy. i think what people care about are the things that are the most stark contrast between the trump administration and the biden administration and the most stark contrast there is is that abortion would be legal under federal, under, you know, the federal constitution during biden but under trump's administration it is no longer. on top of this revenge planning, the administration has plans for people who will work in his university -- administration to shut down women's reproduction options even more than they have. that is something a lot of voters care about. they care about that more than they care about whether or not trump will enact revenge. should they care about the revenge part and the crumbling of democracy? sure. you know, i bet you both know

that women's access and equal access to reproductive care is the cornerstone of democracy. people are finding that out right now. there are so many women here in texas, i mean, it is a tragedy, day after day, the women that don't have access to that kind of care. we are seeing it in our front yard right here. i think that is what people care about. even if they should care as much about, like i said, the threat to democracy. >> certainly in 2020 they cared about it which is why they came out in the midterms. luke, you reported about speaker johnson, who has pointed to two hard right trump allies and appointed them to committees. other signs these committees are already being weaponize before trump could even be elected? what kind of groundwork are they laying? >> right. it is no secret that donald trump has tried to remake the republican party and congress in his own image. he has been particularly successful in the house. already, you are seeing the committees, like the oversight

committee, the of weapons euthanization -- weaponization, they are carrying out initiatives from donald trump. the weaponization committee is currently trying to haul in alvin bragg to question him ahead of trump's sentence he, trying to, you know, do what they can on trump's behalf in that case. in this case, you have the intelligence committee, which has long been seen as a serious bipartisan panel which now is trump's closest allies installed on that panel which has raised big concerns on the hill on if they can still get the type of intelligence they used to get or will the intelligence back off now that they know these members are sitting on that panel. -- ana marie, just look at

representative alexandria ocasio-cortez. i would not be surprised if this guy threw me in jail. she added, this is has motto. do have a sense of how much real concern there is among democrats that they will be targeted in a trump administration? >> i think that is one of the things we can see playing out on the ground and we can limited in the halls of congress. trump specifically targeted individual election workers around the country for their role in what he says is the big lie, right? the fact he can repeat the lie he somehow won the 2020 election. you are seeing school board elections have this carryout. people are getting targeted, having anything but most stringent right-wing positions on things like school libraries and gender and sex education. this is something that is unfortunately not an issue we have to look very high up, you know, on the totem pole to see. i think that is scary, as much

as it is scary to see it happening in the halls of congress, to see it happening to our national figures. i hope that people are paying attention to those local races in seeking it happened there. it is. we will see that happen more we see that example set at the highest level. luke, i am curious how many trump's allies and more importantly, his voters, one him to actually go through with the revenge he has promised. you said, if you hear people say something , this particular crew, you should take them out what they are saying. how much do you think people believe this is bluster versus they will do this? >> i think that is always baked in with donald trump. there is an element of bluster to everything he says. people have learned over the years to not take him literally all the time, right, that he says, he famously said his apartment buildings or various buildings in new york were taller than they were.

he is always exaggerating and saying things to get a certain effect. but, you know, when someone makes serious threats about what they are going to do with the criminal justice system, i think that is not something you can lightly shrug off and say he didn't really mean it. he has multiple times not try to take it back, he doesn't seem to want to. he keeps elevating it and floating it again as a possibility. revenge is not a legal principle. it is not something that is akin to the rule of law or in sync with the rule of law. you would have to find people who are willing to carry out his plans to prosecute people for no reason. you know, there may be republican lawyers out there willing to sign up and take on that task. >> okay, sobering, luke

broadwater and ana marie cox, thank you so much. coming up next, the intense focus on the supreme court, again, over the issue of abortion, again. how did this happen? it did not happen overnight. o , and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu. i'm a rusty old boat hitch,

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emergency care overrules idaho's abortion ban. this as we approach two years since roe v. wade was overturned. with me now are authors of the new book, the fall of roe, the rise of a new america. i welcome you bow to this. lisa, i will talk with you first about the idaho case. the lawyer for the aclu said a ruling of state officials would be a new low for the supreme court. how would that help the state in this case? >> the stakes are extremely high. how the effort to overturn roe was really about a decades long attempt to end all abortion. you know, i think a lot of americans saw the fall of roe two years ago is sort of the end of this whole thing. it would be returned to the states and that is where abortion would be decided but what our book really documents is how this is part of a much longer campaign to and abortion.

roe is not the end of the antiabortion movement efforts but the beginning of the upper. >> let's turn to the mifepristone case with you, elizabeth. what are your opinions there? the justices seemed skeptical the plaintiffs even have standing. even if the court upholds access to the pill this time of ruling, could it make its way back to the court? >> all good. one of the things we really try to show what our book, "the fall of roe: the rise of a new america", it has been hard for everyday people to keep track of and follow it is part of the antiabortion movement's long-term decades long strategy that has been quite successful to kind of, it functions as kind of a chaos strategy overwhelming the public. we decided it was really important in our book to help people understand the history of how we got here and kind of

explain things, not in dry language of abortion politics but in everyday narratives so that you can really lock-in to understand the stakes of not just how we got to the overturn of roe but to understand how the movement operates as we look ahead to the new cases. >> we will get to the history in a moment but i want to ask you, lisa, we have seen you are attacked over contraception in 2022. clarence thomas said the supreme court to overturn landmark rulings that legalize conception, those that guarantee a right to contraception. we now in a reality where the significant precedents are no longer guaranteed to stand? -- for sure i think we are in that reality. we have a court with a very strong antiabortion reality. look, i think there is no anti-

, movement wide antiabortion effort to undermine contraception however, that outer fringes are pushing to finalize and criminalize certain types of contraception. this is just a deeply unpopular position. there are very few americans that have 80% support. access to contraception is one of them. what we show in our book is that the fringes can be common to become for the past decade the mainstream. you know, eliminating roe was once seen as a fringe position, certainly an unrealistic one, including in the antiabortion meant -- movement but by republicans and democrats but there is a history here of these types of outlier positions suddenly becoming reality. >> to pick up on that, elizabeth, and the book, here is what you write, roe looms so large in american life it was almost impossible to imagine it could disappear. in the time since the dobbs decision, have americans become more aware of the importance

of the courts? >> absolutely. was amazing to document the power of denial and how it functioned into american society and really into the antiabortion movements. was roe foul, that shattered right away. we could see that in states across the country where the issue of access to abortions put directly to the voters and overwhelmingly it passes in many states and now they are restoring protection of abortion access. the whole dynamic is different now. this is the first presidential election in a half-century, since roe is now eliminated, at its foundation. with this really shifting around, everyone is operating differently. so the attention to the cases like you are mentioning at the supreme court, two candidates actually thinking about the issue on it actually what it

would mean versus the theoretical world is really pivotal. we are watching very closely to see how the issue accepts voter . we talk about abortion as, yes, procedure is out but it also is a symbol of what it means to be a woman in america today. it is a symbol, really, of the future of this country. once you get into understanding those dynamics, you start to understand why really, why this issue is unlike any other in american politics. >> lisa, now to history, work elizabeth was referencing earlier, right from the start, your book features marjorie and her anti-abortion organization, the susan b. anthony pro-life america. it was very strategic. you say, even as a majority of americans continued to support abortion rights, the saturation and digital spread created a sense that the movement had more reach on public support than it actually did. what is your biggest take away on their strategy and how do

abortion rights advocates combat that now? >> part of it was just the dynamics of that time. i think there were many people in america, we certainly saw this full display after the ruling in the dobbs case that ended roe that just really didn't believe that all right that existed as the fabric of american families for generations could steadily disappear. there was this pervasive sense of denial going on, even as the antiabortion movement passed at certain states in these cases move their way through the courts. people really didn't see what was happening. that was part of the strategy, too, just overwhelm the public

with so many cases and laws that it was easy to turn that out and to not out. i think what has happened since roe foul is just a complete reversal. we have scrambled politics and now we haven't seen this in decades were suddenly you have this pro-abortion rights coalition of democrats, independents and moderates coming out to vote and they see abortion rights as a litmus test for their vote. the dynamics are really different right now. the focus is to watch how the abortion movement benefited from that sense of denial and the energy on their side. of course, it is more politically potent to try to change something then to be supportive of the status quo. as we have shown in the fall of roe, abortion could benefit that, as well. >> lisa lerer, elizabeth dias, the book is, once again, "the fall of roe: the rise of a new america", thank you very much for the conversation. best of luck with the book, it is terrific. what we know about a frightening situation off the coast of florida. ♪ ♪ lorida. ♪ ♪ to close, twist until it clicks. tide pods child-guard packaging. everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile.

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today's other top stories, newly released video shows the shocking moments and explosion leveled a home in virginia. it happened in december when police were trying to serve a

search warrant in arlington. the man inside blew up the house on purpose and died. police say social media posts show a mistrust of law enforcement. several bull sharks off city beach and came one day after three people were bitten by sharks nearby. take a look at this. a major landslide is closing a critical highway linking idaho and wyoming. officials say the collapse of teton pass was a catastrophic failure and could not be avoided but nobody was injured. that is the good news. in moments, breaking news on an nbc exclusive. donald trump sitdown date with a probation officer tomorrow. next, how trump might react in this meeting. >> from msnbc world headquarters in new york. welcome everyone. we begin this our following three big breaking news stories for you. first up, and nbc news exclusive report that donald trump will sit