well. the trial sheltered him. >> yes. >> now that he is out and about, americans will be listening to him and turned off by what he says. the biggest moment is the debate, underscoring how large that looms. donny deutsch, thank you so much. we will talk again later this morning on "morning joe." thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. i wanted to come and pay respects. it matters a lot. >> everybody was so worried yesterday about you, and they never mentioned me. i'm up here sweating like a dog. >> there's no quit in america, none. none, there's no quit in america. >> secret service said we have to make sure everyone is safe. i said, what about me? oh, we never thought of that. >> the best way to avoid these battles in the future is to stay strong with our allies. do not break. do not break. >> you feel the breeze? because i don't want anybody going on me. we need every voter. i don't care about you. i just want your vote.

i don't care. >> president biden wraps up a visit to france honoring the world war ii veterans there, while donald trump campaigns in las vegas post conviction. we'll have more on that split screen from over the weekend. meanwhile, today, donald trump is reportedly set to have an interview with a probation officer. we'll explain what that means for the upcoming sentencing for his criminal conviction. plus, the dramatic rescue by israeli forces of four hostages from hamas captivity. we'll go over what we're learning about that operation. the emotional reunions that took place afterwards. and the potential impact on the remaining hostages and the overall war in gaza. some incredible scenes on both sides. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, june 10th. with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire. u.s. special correspondent for

bbc news, katty kay is with us. and president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass is here. we will be joined later by historian john meacham. first, president biden is back in the u.s. this morning after a busy week in france. that focused on reaffirming america's commitment to its allies and commemorating 80 years since d-day. yesterday, the president and first lady capped their trip to a visit to the amarin cemetery, with over 1,000 names of the missing inscribed on the interior wall of its chapel. the location saw heavy fighting nearby during world war ii, with the chapel itself still bearing a hole due to an artillery shell, left as a reminder of what took place there. the president finished his trip

to france by paying his respects to the fallen. afterwards, he spoke to reporters about the sacrifices those troops made and the importance of standing by allies. >> they stopped the germans. they stopped the germans. and the idea that we're able to avoid being engaged in major battles in europe is just not realistic. that's why it's so important that we continue to have the alliances we have, continue to beef up these alliances, continue to keep nato strong, continue to do what we've been able to do for the last since the end of world war ii. so i just -- jill and i wanted to come and pay our respects. more marines were lost here than any battle until the middle of world war ii. the idea that i'd come to normandy and not make this short trip here to pay tribute, and

it's the same story. think about it. america showed up. america showed up to stop the germans. america showed up to make sure that they did not prevail. america showed up. >> mr. president, what do you hope americans take away from you coming on this trip? >> acknowledge that the best way to avoid these kinds of battles in the future is to stay strong with our allies. do not break. do not break. >> so while president biden was saluting our veterans over the weekend, attending dinners with important allies and doing a speech on the world stage, donald trump was delivering a campaign speech in vegas in sweltering heat. trump dealt with teleprompter issues, causing him to go off script. >> he just came up. are the teleprompters not working? said, not even a little bit!

great job. then i don't pay the company that does it, right? then i end up with a story, trump doesn't pay. i don't pay contractors that do a [ bleep ] job. that's a [ bleep ] job. that's a [ bleep ] job. this is the worst border in the history of the world. there's never been -- no third-world country has a border like that. and no third -- i'll tell ya what, i hope the military -- i hope the military revolts at the voting booth. i went to a boat company in south carolina. the boat, i said, how is it? he said, it's a problem, sir. they want us to make all electric boats. so i said, let me ask you a question, and he said, nobody ever asked this question and it must be because of m.i.t., my relationship with m.i.t., very smart. i say, what would happen if the boat sank from its weight. you're in the boat, and you have this tremendously powerful battery. the battery is now underwater, and there is a shark that is

approximately 10 yards over there. by the way, a lot of shark attacks lately, you notice that a lot of sharks. i watched some guys justifying it today. well, they weren't really that angry. they bit off the young lady's leg because of the fact they were not hungry, but they misunderstood who she was. these people are crazy. he said, there's no problem with sharks. they just didn't really understand a young woman swimming. really got decimated, a lot of people, too. i said, there's a shark 10 yards away from the boat, 10 yards. here, do i get electrocuted if the boat is sinking, water goes over the battery, the boat is sinking? do i stay on top of the boat and get electrocuted, or do i jump over by the shark and not get electrocuted. he didn't know the answer. he said, nobody has ever asked me that question. i said, i think it is a good question. there's a lot of electric current coming through that water. you know what i'd do if there was a shark or you get electrocuted?

i'll take electrocusion every single time. we'll end it for boats. >> some would call that completely unfit to deal with the challenges as the leader of the free world. just completely unfit. let's bring in the rogers chair and the american presidency at vanderbilt university, presidential historian jon meacham. not trying to be flip, not trying to be funny, that was just disturbing and kind of crazy talk of a guy who did not know what to say when his prompter failed. compared to president biden. like his policies or not, jon meacham, explain the split screen that is america's choice today. >> it's very clear. i mean, there's not a lot of mystery here. we have a president who is trying to maintain and

strengthen a post world war ii order that, for all of its imperfections, has prevailed in a largely peaceable way since those men took the beaches at normandy and went to berlin, prevailed in the pacific. president truman in a surprising turn, most people didn't know who he was when he became president in april of 1945, grows in the job in a remarkable way. establishes nato. establishes the marshall plan. here's a branding question. harry truman told george marshall, reportedly, if he called it truman plan, nobody would support it, so they should call it the marshall plan. there was a kind of humility there, a kind of sense that you had to put the good of the country above your personal good. if anybody has any doubts about this, i don't quite know what else to tell them, except to do

what you just did and show that we have a choice here. between a president who thinks about the american people first and a former president who thinks largely, if not entirely, about himself. >> so that's, katty kay, kind of the concern here in the united states, is there is so much material to work with over the weekend between these two choices. one on the right who promises to be a dictator, who promises to exact retribution on anybody who made him angry or held him accountable. and one on the left who, again, you may not agree with his policies and his legislation, even though he has accomplished more than most modern, if not all modern american presidents, he endorses democracy, agrees

with democracy. he wants to preserve our democracy. there is the choice. we've heard it a million times. yet, katty, and i have to say it because a lot of people are influenced by what they watch on fox news. i watch the sunday shows. there's all this material. there's this craven speech in nevada in the sweltering heat, where he flippantly talks about a woman who lost her leg in a shark attack. he makes it fodder for his speech. let's not begin with the j-6 hostages. he calls them hostages at a time where there are hostages being held in one of the two major wars that president biden is dealing with, israeli hostages, some of them americans. they're being tortured and truly held captive. but he wants to say the people who defecated on the capitol, broke in, broke windows, ran through the halls, talked about killing nancy pelosi and mike

pence, those people who are being held accountable for their crimes by courts through the law, he wants to call them hostages. it's sick. it's depraved. i don't need to say, some say, it is depraved. yet, on fox news, i watched a segment about whether or not trump would be a dictator. after running a number of sound bites of people concerned about things he has said, because he promises to do things that are like acts committed by a dictator or even says he will be one, and then some person on the right who says, there is no proof he said it. then a sound bite of sean hannity asking him, would you be a dictator, trump not answering the question, and then the host saying, there, it's settled. he's not going to be a dictator, we'll be right back.

i have to say it, so many people are influenced by what they watch on fox news, and they're not giving a clear picture. yet, moving forward, is it not clear, the picture? am i crazy? because i have eyes. i see one person who doesn't seem at all sane, who loves dictators and wants to be one, and another who is getting a little older but, quite frankly, doing quite well on the world stage under pretty tough circumstances. answering questions on his own with no teleprompter and sounding just fine. thank you. >> yeah. look, this weekend was exactly what the biden team wanted. by the way, congratulations on getting a balanced news diet. i think it is in this tribal, polarized world, it is actually is probably beneficial for everybody to get some kind of balanced news diet, so that we start knowing what other people are hearing when it comes to news content. i think you're right, it is very

easy, if we all just watch one source of news or the source of news that falls with our own political beliefs, that is when you might get taken by surprise in an election when you don't win it and you think, my god, but i was hearing all of this stuff. that applies both to liberals and conservatives. it really is a public service announcement. make sure you get a balanced news diet. but this is what the biden campaign wants. they want more of what we saw this weekend. all of that material that you're talking about that we played those clips from. yeah, it is tempting to laugh at the meandering nature of -- i don't even know what that was. was it a woke, pro-shark attack, critique? i don't even know really what that was or why it crept into the speech. but it's what the biden campaign feels, in a way, that the race has been frozen during the course of the trial, right? it was put on pause almost.

donald trump was tied up in a courtroom. now, donald trump will be back, and the biden campaign sees this as advantageous to them pause the american public will see this. it'll be interesting to see how those clips about the shark, especially the line about "i don't care about you. i just want your vote," how it is played on news outlets sympathetic to donald trump. does it get any air time? >> nope. >> if it does, is it just kind of dismissed as, well, that's the kind of thing he says. you mustn't take him too seriously? it is hard to know what breaks through in this incredibly siloed news world we all live in. it is very hard to know what breaks through, but the biden team thinks the best chance they have is making this a referendum on donald trump. the more he is out there, the more he is saying things, the choice becomes more stark. >> i heard from biden advisors in recent days. they think the events of the last week, the trip to france, did break through, but they're honest about it. the eyes of the world's media

would be on the president because he was part of the d-day 80th anniversary. he had the global stage, had the spotlight, and it was carried here in the u.s. it'll be hard to recreate in the day-to-day politics. he heads to the g-7, and that'll be a spotlight. it is a contrast. i wrote about it, as well. biden didn't mention trump's name but didn't have to. he talked about alliances. trump wants to undermine alliances. he talked about standing with ukraine. trump often sides with russia. yesterday, he visited the world war i cemetery where we played those remarks. that's the same cemetery that donald trump, when he was president, skipped a visit there because it was raining. richard haass, there was that contrast as a backdrop to the president's visit to france, but there was another. these european parliament elections. we have seen the far right make real gains kind of across the board. the centrists will still be in charge, but the far right really

picked up steam there. give us your analysis here. there seems to be bigger just headwinds of anti-incumbency and the far right on the march. >> exactly that. in europe, we have the cumulative effects of high immigration and low economic growth. the european economy has been disappointing now for years. you're right, the bottom line is, strong anti-incumbency. that's my second point. you look at president biden's talk, you know, at the 80th anniversary. he's representing and talking to a traditional world. victory in world war ii and everything since, the quote, unquote, post world war ii order. what's happening, though, in this country, with ukraine and all that, we're beginning to see people move away from that. they don't understand it, don't study it, don't support it. donald trump represents that. you have the contrast between alliance first and america first. what we're also seeing, and this

is a really worisome development over the weekend, is the erosion of the atlantic world on the other side of the atlantic. you're seeing the far right in france. you're seeing it in germany. along with the rejection of the immigration and low economic growth, what we're also seeing is the rejection in many ways of the atlantic alliance. people aren't so worried about russia. we're seeing the parallelism there. i would think for joe biden and company, this is a warning in two ways. politically, it shows the tenor of the times. this is a very hard moment to be an incumbent. we're seeing that all over the world. saw it recently in india in certain ways with the surprise there. we saw it in south africa with the results there. second of all, we're seeing the rejection of a traditional foreign policy. that ought to worry all of us. let's get to the big news over the weekend. secretary of state antony blinken is in cairo right now as he continues to push president biden's proposal for a cease-fire between israel and hamas.

there has been no firm response from hamas about whether they will accept the terms of the three-phase proposal for a cease-fire in gaza. blinken will visit egypt, israel, jordan, and qatar. this marks the secretary's eighth trip to the middle east since hamas attacked israel on october 7th. and the new visit comes after israeli forces rescued four hostages from hamas captivity. on saturday, troops found noa argamani, jan, kozlov, and ziv. under fire, forces raided two apartment buildings about 200 yards apart. the idf says the hostages were being guarded by armed captors. noa argamani was in an apartment alone, while the three male hostages were together.

on the ground, troops conducted heavy shelling to provide protection for the forces rescuing the hostages. one israeli police commando was killed in the raid. according to gaza health officials, more than 270 palestinians, 270 died during saturday's operation. it's not known how many of those were militants. all four of the rescued hostages had been kidnapped during that nova music festival on october 7th. according to israeli officials, the hostages were found in good medical condition. they were taken to an israeli hospital for evaluation where they were reunited with their families. 26-year-old noa argamani had appeared in a series of videos. the first was filmed by her attackers on october 7th.

you might remember, she was seen being forced onto a motorcycle with her boyfriend, whose whereabouts are still not known. noa also appeared in other hamas-released videos. when she was reunited with her family on saturday, noa celebrated her father's birthday. yet, her mother is currently undergoing treatment for terminal brain cancer. 27-year-old andrey kozlov was working as a security guard at the festival when kidnapped. he immigrated to israel a year and a half earlier. shlomi ziv went to the festival with two friends who, according to local media, were both killed. shlomi and his wife live in a farming community in northern israel. and 21-year-old almog meir jan finished his army service three months before he was kidnapped. he was supposed to start a job at a tech company after the music festival.

his father died of a heart attack just a day before almog's rescue. his relatives expressed their gratitude to see him again. >> thank you. for bringing my son to me, to us. i'm so excited that i could hug him today. >> we met a guy which we love and we know is safe and sound. he's been in the hamas captivity for the last eight months. and we think that he is okay. we'll see in the next few days, but he is okay. yesterday, all his friends came. it was a big party for him. all he wants is a cigarette and friends. we have to remember that we have

another 120 hostages more that we have to bring back home. maybe in our private circle, family circle, it's over, but, nationally, it's not over yet. we have a lot of things to do. >> joining us now from israel, nbc news international correspondent raf sanchez. raf, what's the latest? >> reporter: so, mika, within an hour of those four hostages being rescued in the heart of central gaza, they were flown by helicopter to this israeli hospital. those three male hostages are still here. doctors say that despite eight months in captivity, they are in generally good health and good condition. they have a very long road ahead of them, as does noa argamani. but the scene here is generally one of happiness. now, a u.s. official tells nbc

news that american intelligence helped israel locate those four hostages and set the stage for that dramatic, daylight rescue. the idf says at 11:00 a.m. local time on saturday, special forces simultaneously stormed two apartments in central gaza, about 200 yards apart. those three male hostages held in one of those apartments, and noa argamani held in the other. the code word that the special forces gave when they had the hostages in their hands was "we have the diamonds. we have the diamonds." but they were not immediately at safety. the israeli military says one of the vehicles carrying the three male hostages actually broke down during an intense fire fight in central gaza. those hostages had to be transferred under fire to another vehicle before they could be taken to a helicopter and flown here back to the safety of the greater tel-aviv area. now, you mentioned, mika, people

around the world will recognize noa argamani, the young woman whose screams of terror were some of the first images of october 7th as she was carried on that motorcycle into gaza. we have been speaking to her family and to her friends since the very, very beginning of this war. take a look. a helicopter waiting for noa on the beach in northern gaza, ready to fly her home to safety and into the embrace of her father, celebrating his birthday with an arm over his own child, the other around a rescuer. his world crumbling 24 hours after his daughter's kidnap. tonight, he tells us, "i'm feeling wonderful." noa's friends at her side. >> she's amazing. she's strong. she's laughing and smiling. >> reporter: what was the first thing you said to her?

>> just a big hug and so glad. >> reporter: now, mika, you mentioned that the joy that noa's family is feeling today is tinged with sadness. her mother is dying of cancer. it has been her mother's dying wish to see her daughter one more time. that was a wish fulfilled saturday night when noa went from this hospital to another hospital in tel-aviv, where her mother is now in her final days. i should say, while there are celebrations here in israel, there is searing, searing grief inside of gaza today. the health ministry there says at least 270 people were killed by israeli fire during that raid. they say at least 60 of them were children. our team in gaza has seen hospital emergency rooms just absolutely overrun with the dead and dying. just completely, completely heartbreaking scenes inside of

gaza. the israeli military says hamas deliberately holds the hostages inside of crowded civilian areas and that they called in targeted air strikes to cover the retreat of the commandos, but it is clear, a very large number of innocent people lost their lives inside of gaza in the course of this rescue. finally, mika, one day after this rescueunited israel, we are seeing politics back once again. israel's war cabinet last night breaking apart. benny gantz, the centrist opposition leader who joins the government after october 7th, resigns last night. he accused prime minister benjamin netanyahu of playing politics with the war. he says that there needs to be fresh elections. netanyahu is giving no indication he is going to agree to those elections. the fact that the centrists have left the israeli government means that there are fewer moderates at this point to balance out the far-right ministers who sit around

benjamin netanyahu's cabinet table. those ministers are deeply opposed to the cease-fire deal that president biden laid out to her week. mika. >> oh, boy. nbc's raf sanchez live from israel, thank you very much. let's go straight to richard haass on this. given the picture that raf just painted for us from the emotional reunions to the sadness around them, quite frankly, and also the unbelievable loss on the other side in order to rescue these hostages, what's the domino effect here? retribution? what about the fate of the other remaining hostages? and pull back to politics if you could. benny gantz stepping down from the war cabinet. what does it mean? >> several things, mika. look, what happened was in a narrow sense, let me emphasize the word narrow, a wonderful thing. the idea the four hostages were rescued. the first obligation of any government, think about it, is to protect its citizens.

that's what the israeli government here did. but, and there's three big buts. one, this is not scaleable. this is not a recipe or a formula for getting back the more than 100 hostages who are still there. it simply isn't. the intelligence, the military things are too difficult. you get the hostages back, it'll be diplomatic, not military. it was costly, secondly. over 200 palestinians till kiln killed. you lost a commando. interesting historical echoes. third and the most sobering point, this changed nothing. but that i mean, all the basic questions of what happens after, who is going to govern gaza, what's going to happen between israelis and palestinians, none of those was affected. that's what the resignations of benny gantz and others tell us. there is a fundamental split

within israel about where this is going. you can use military force to degrade hamas but then what? there's still no consensus of then what. on hamas' side, you don't see a willingness to agree to the kinds of ideas that president biden is putting out there. so this is a temporary moment. quite honestly, none of the underlying conditions that have haunted gaza over the last eight months are changed. we're still where we were, quite honestly, the day before this hostage rescue. >> jon meacham, let me take to you the framework that richard just so well laid out here. there was, of course, this deep moment of euphoria and such relief to see those hostages reunited with their families. we shouldn't look past that. we're all so pleased. but it didn't change anything. there is suffering in gaza. netanyahu, his grip on power seems deeply threatened at the moment, but we also aren't sure what would come next. what is your sort of big picture analysis of where things stand and where we go from here? >> it's the most entractably

tragic geopolitical situation, i think, and richard can fact check me on this, certainly of the last century and maybe longer. i think as americans, as those who have historic and familial ties to the region, what we should want is an american president, an american congress, an american public that has patience, that understands the immense complexities, and doesn't judge this by the quick, minute to minute, conflict-driven in terms of dialogue, standards that we jung judge everything else by. if this were easy, someone would have fixed this a long time ago. >> right. >> president obama used to say, any problem i got from the hit

on my desk was clearly too hard, because somebody else would have fixed it and told me how brilliant they were to have fixed it. i think that's what this is. my own view, i go back to this again and again, is we have a very clear choice in the country. is it a perfect choice? no. we live in a world that's fallen. but do you want -- just think about it. do you want the man talking about sharks dealing with this, or do you want someone who spent his life trying to understand it? i think we're facing a test of citizenship here. i really, really do. richard has written a great book on citizenship and the habits we have to have. and the habit we have to have, i think, is patience and proportion and a maturity about, even if we disagree with this diplomatic maneuver, that policy, or that tax rate, the american experiment is, in many

ways, hanging in the balance here. and i wish this were overstated. i wish this were somehow just part of the political entertainment complex, but it's not. we saw that this weekend. we're going to see it again and again and again. we're all going to face a big test. i don't think president biden is on trial here. i think we are. a lot more still ahead on "morning joe." donald trump has a pre-sentencing interview with a probation officer today following his hush money conviction. we'll talk about what we can expect from that. plus, manhattan district attorney alvin bragg agrees to testify before congress about trump's trial but sets his own timeline. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be back in 90 seconds. ack. if advanced lung cancer has you searching for possibilities, discover a different first treatment. immunotherapies work with your immune system to attack cancer. but opdivo plus yervoy is the first combination of 2 immunotherapies for adults

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pretty shot of new york city at 33 past the hour. welcome back the "morning joe." manhattan district attorney alvin bragg will testify before the republican-led house judiciary committee in connection to former president trump's criminal hush money trial and conviction. bragg responded to a request from trump ally and judiciary committee chairman, congressman jim jordan, on friday, saying he is willing to testify but not before trump's sentencing date,

which is scheduled for next month. jordan had originally requested a hearing this week. bragg's response counters that date, saying court proceedings are not over in the case. the d.a.'s letter also asked to speak to the committee about the, quote, scope of the proposed testimony. meanwhile, former president trump is scheduled to sit down for a virtual interview later today with a new york city probation officer. that's according to three sources familiar with the matter. it's part of a mandatory step ahead of his july 11th sentencing, following trump's conviction last month on 34 felony counts in his hush money trial. trump will reportedly call in for the interview from mar-a-lago with his lead attorney, todd blanche, by his side. once the process is finished, the probation officer will deliver a report to judge merchan, who will use it when determining trump's sentence

next month. interesting. one of the things they always keep in mind is whether or not a convicted criminal has remorse. joining us now, former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. and former u.s. attorney and an msnbc contributor, barbara mcquade. she's the author of the book, "attack from within, how disinformation is sabotaging america." also with us is special correspondent at "vanity fair" and the host of the "fast politics" podcast, molly jong-fast. she is an msnbc political analyst. we'll get to her powerful piece about the hunter biden trial in a moment. lisa, with all your time in the courtroom, i want to start with you. about this hearing today, is this as simple as every american is convicted of a felony, a convicted felon, i guess, ultimately, on sentencing day, have to go through a meeting

like what president trump is going through today? can you lay it out for us. and do you -- >> every single one. >> -- think he will express remorse? would that matter to the judge? >> well, let's start, mika, at the back half, will he express remorse. i think the answer has to be no. this is a person who continues to say that the trial was rigged, that the judge is corrupt, and that there was no crime, including that there was no crime even specified by the d.a. you and i know that not to be true. i don't expect to hear any statement of contrition or remorse from former president trump. that is a factor that will go into this pre-sentence investigation report by the new york city department of corrections and probation. that having been said, this is a process that all criminal defendants go through prior to their sentencing. donald trump is no exception. what makes this unusual is the interview is happening virtually, but the regulations here provide for virtual interviews and circumstances like this, where, for example, courtesy to the court and all of the precautions that would need

to be taken for him to come and visit the department of probations, all of those things would be unnecessary and costly for new york city, which has already incurred the cost of this trial. that's why the interview is happening virtually. it is also unusual for an attorney to be present, but as you know, judge merchan gave todd blanche his express permission to be present with former president trump at mar-a-lago when the interview is held later today. >> lisa, let's get you in on an odd development that happened during the case. on friday, the judge, merchan, sent a letter to both parties in the trial, alerting them to a facebook post that had been made at the end of may, allegedly says, i'll read it, "my cousin is a juror and says trump is getting convicted. thank you, folks, for all your hard work." the post has since been deleted. nbc news has not identified the poster or the validity of the claim. we don't even know if this is real. but it has not stopped trump and his allies from seizing upon it, suggesting the fix was in, it

wasn't a fair trial. it'll be part of the appeal, et cetera. walk us through, what do we know about this, and could it have any impact? >> let's start with could it have any impact? if it were real, there are provisions where you can move to set aside the verdict under new york law. the only remedy for that where conduct or juror misconduct is concerned is to have a new trial. what you have to show is that the juror misconduct or communications would have had a substantial impact or could have had a substantial impact on the outcome trial. but let's move backward from there to what we actually know about this situation. there's no question in my mind that judge merchan made this information publicly available because he knew that once he notified the parties, if he didn't control that public access, somebody else was going to. based on screenshots that were taken of this poster's comments -- and i should note, they made this comment more than once -- it seems dubious that this person is related to a

juror, much less that the person is really having any information related to the jury at all. in fact, the person's bio says they are professional expletive poster. they take a lot of joy in trying to mix things up online, so to speak. that hasn't stopped the trump campaign from shouting mistrial, as former president trump did on one of his truth social posts. do i expect they'll try to delay proceedings by demanding an investigation into who this person is and whether any of the jurors had conduct with this person? absolutely. do i expect that it will succeed? absolutely not. that's why i said on friday when this information became available, if this person actually knows a juror, this is unbelievably bad. if this person is creating mischief. it is even worse. they will have succeeded in derailing some of the proceedings without knowing anything at all, without having any legitimate impact on the process, and just trying to throw a bomb, metaphorically,

into the process that has to continue and play out. >> i want to ask barbara mcquade about the bomb. i'll take a different route, if i could. on fox news, i was watching a segment about whether or not donald trump would be a dictator. here's what the left has to say. they ran sound bites of people making very legitimate arguments, quoting donald trump about wanting to be a dictator or to have dictator-like tendencies or behavior. then the host runs trump's response to the question, where he does not answer it at all. he just talks over it and talks about other things. then the host absolutely decides that that's both sides right there. you heard both sides. when you didn't hear trump respond to the question at all. then the host talks to the panel, and the panel agrees that he's not going to be a dictator and that he never said it. then they go to break. now, having said that, that's a

daily ritual on a network that paid $187 million for lying about dominion. still, it's a daily ritual to sort of, i would say, at best, mislead or just terribly cover the issues. then you have this story. if you could, talk a little bit about what you learned putting together your book about what's happening out there when it comes to truth, facts, respect for the viewer when you are covering the news and delivering important information to people from a position of influence. >> yes. when it comes to fox news, for example, we know, based on that defamation lawsuit, that the hosts and the executives admitted in documents that they didn't believe for one minute some of the things that they were airing about the dominion

voting systems and the allegations that they had somehow flipped votes from donald trump to joe biden. but they did it because it was good for ratings. so some are out there because it's a profit motive. some are out there because it is a political motive. some are out there because it is a career motive. saying things that are not true to go along with the con. you know, there are some people who hear false claims and believe them to be true. those people are victims of disinformation. but there are others who know better and who will say things and push things just to advance this agenda. this idea of dictator for a day or revenge prosecution is problematic because of the effect it has on people. it normalizes this idea that the law is really just one more political tool that political actors use against their rivals. it erodes respect for the rule of law, and i worry that,

ultimately, it leads to vigilante violence. if people don't trust the courts or law enforcement to carry out the law in a fair and balanced way, that is what opens the floodgates to people taking the law into their own hands, just as we saw on january 6th. >> it is interesting that you're thinking and looks at this. somebody last week if the uk was asking me, how is it donald trump can say the system was rigged, this is a sham trial, it was a corrupt judge? i mean, how do the kind of -- what he was suggesting is in the uk, you wouldn't be allowed to say that because it is a danger, therefore, to the system itself, that it is a form of incitement to violence. here, it's a free speech issue. we've also seen the former president say that, you know, there was this huge raid in mar-a-lago and that they came in kind of guns blazing as it were, suggesting that, again, that's the way they went into mar-a-lago, exactly as they should have gone into mar-a-lago. the fbi. what is the danger when he says things like that?

and why is he allowed to say things like that? >> right. first, let's talk about why he's allowed to say things like that. i believe he is someone, like others, who actually exploits our first amendment to free speech. he knows where the lines are. he goes right up to them. sometimes he tiptoes over them. mostly, he includes a few throwaway lines to keep within the boundaries. here in the united states, we have a cherished first amendment right to free speech, even ugly speech, even sometimes dangerous speech. the supreme court has placed the bar on what becomes criminal or prohibited speech really quite high. that par is from a case called brandenburg versus ohio, a kkk speech where someone gave a fiery speech. the court held that speech may only be prohibited in the dangerous situation where there is an intent to cause imminent lawless action and a likelihood of causing that result.

now, i think there is an argument that that bar was crossed on january 6th. but when donald trump says these things at the courthouse, it may be planting ideas in people's minds, but it is probably not rising to that level of imminent lawless action. but what does it do? what is the outcome of that? it does have an effect, as you mentioned, especially -- let's take that example of mar-a-lago. donald trump falsely claimed not only that the fbi came guns blazing but they planted false evidence in his home. since, he's said he had every right to keep the documents. consistency is never his forte. someone in ohio posted, it is time to take action against the fbi, went to the headquarters with an assault weapon, and was chased and killed by police. when things are said, many roll their eyes, some may believe it, but there are people out there who will take that as a call to

action. we know that based on past experiences. it is incredibly reckless simply to utter these phrases. >> former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade, thank you very much. her new book is entitled "attack from within, how disinformation is sabotaging america." coming up, day six of hunter biden's federal gun trial resumes in a delaware courtroom this morning. we're going to talk about how this could backfire on the prosecution. also, molly jong-fast's amazing piece on this, very personal piece as she covers the trial of hunter biden. we'll be right back.

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day six of hunter biden's federal gun trial resumes in a delaware courtroom later this morning. on friday, the prosecution rested its case, and the defense called its first witnesses, including the owner of the gun shop and the employee who handled hunter biden's background check. hunter biden's daughter, naomi biden, also took the stand, telling the court she was nervous. when asked about her father's drug use, she said, i knew that he was struggling with addiction. her voice trembling at one point when she called that, after my uncle died, things got bad. a reference to hunter's older brother, beau biden. hunter was seen wiping away tears as naomi told the court how her father appeared to have taken control of his drug use in the months before prosecutors say he lied on a background

check form. the defense finishes calling its final witness, then the prosecution will decide whether to put on a rebuttal case. hunter biden is accused of illegally purchasing a handgun and lying about his use of drugs on a federal form. he has pleaded not guilty. lisa, i want to turn to you about what's ahead in this trial. i think it's fair to say here on "morning joe" you will not hear this is a weaponized justice department. joe biden has said publicly he will not be pardoning his job. everybody here is covering the law as it progresses. even members of hunter biden's family are respectful in the courtroom and not claiming that this is some sort of witch hunt. with that disclaimer, what's next? >> today, abbey lowell will say

whether or not they have a final witness, who would be hunter biden. they were going to call his brother, james, but decided not to, and finished with naomi biden, hunter's eldest daughter. we guess is we won't hear from hunter biden, that the defense will rest. then the judge will turn to two major things. one is when will closing arguments be? will they be today or tomorrow? the second question is, what will the jury instructions look like? we learned from our own gary grumback, that they said, judge, there are things with the draft, including how you describe the theory of our defense case. expect outside of the presence of the jury, they'll spend time on that today. my guess would be closing arguments would be tomorrow, along with jury instructions, and then the jury will be able to deliberate. we could have a verdict as early as tomorrow or wednesday, mika. >> molly, trumpers and

republicans actually holding office in congress, they love this story. they love going after hunter. they actually screamed at him nasty things when he walked into a hearing room, acting like eighth graders. i mean, really badly, poorly behaved eighth graders. they love to sort of go after hunter and equivocate with this versus donald trump's trial. your latest opinion piece is really interesting to me. because i saw this the last time around with joe biden. people don't like it when you go after his remaining son. they like joe biden overall. they think he is a nice guy. going after the remaining son didn't seem to fair well for those trying to do it. you write this, "republicans going after hunter biden for his addiction are playing a

dangerous game." in it, you write this, "fox news, "the five" co-host jeanine pirro reportedly complained about eight jurors who had someone in their family who has had a drug or alcohol addiction problem or someone who died from alcohol or addiction, so they picked a jury who is sympathetic. and herein lies the problem with the ongoing republican attack on biden: seating jurors who have experiences with addiction to various degrees does not make a jury sympathetic. it makes it informed. addiction is a disease. people who struggle with addiction are sick, not bad. republicanings going after hunter biden for his addiction in this way is a dangerous game. more people than you think are affected by alcoholism and addiction, and shaming the family of the addict is neither productive nor grounded in any basis of efficacy."

molly, if you could talk a little bit more about this, it seems to me that it would be very hard to find a jury that has been untouched by addiction completely. >> yeah. the reason i wanted to come forward and write about this is because even though i've been sober since i was a teenager, i felt that the disease that hunter biden has is the same disease that i have. it's the same disease that, you know, almost 20% of the country has. you know, republicans do love to talk about, like, fentanyl coming over the border. like, there is a reason that, you know, drugs are a problem in this country, and it's largely because of addiction. so this is another part of that. i think republicans have really actually not had a lot of success using hunter biden to sully joe biden, but they have tried. one of the sort of moments in the debate where biden ended up

really, you know, being that biden that voters really like was when he talked about his son's addiction. he said, you know, he struggled with addiction. he's made it through. he's incredibly proud of his son for that. look, i came forward partially because i wanted to destigmatize this, and i feel like, you know, for a long time, alcoholism and addiction was this terrible secret we didn't talk about. i feel like for me, because i've been sober since i was a teenager, i have this ability to talk about it in a way that's a little bit removed from the disease, and so i always try to say that i have suffered from this disease. i continue to suffer from it. when i saw that text that hunter sent to his then girlfriend, and he said, you know, i'm an addict and will always be an addict, that is the way we're sort of taught to think about addiction. we'll always have this disease, whether or not we're given the

reprieve of being sober. >> yeah, no, it is very generous of you to share. i'm curious, jon meacham, the position that president biden is in here. by the way, i know that you work with him at times. >> yeah. >> but personally, i want to talk to you personally about this. because americans know that he lost a baby and his wife decades ago in a car accident. americans know that he lost his son, beau, to a brain tumor. americans know the family has struggled. he still steps up and serves. i'm just curious, how is this fervent desire to hurt hunter -- and i'm not talking about in court. he's got to go to court. he's got to show up, and he's got to face the music. i'm talking about the people going crazy about hunter, whether it is jeanine pirro or republicans in congress or the trump campaign, how does this

hurt joe biden, except for personally? >> oh, i think it's simply a personal -- not simply. i think it is a personal cost. politically, i don't think anyone -- >> yeah. >> i mean, i appreciate the tone in which you asked the question and molly speaking. i hate beginning a sentence on this topic with politically, comma, but i'll do it quickly, because it transcends that. politically, no, i don't think so. anyone who -- >> i don't think so either. >> yeah, anyone who is going to vote against president biden because of his son's struggles is not what i would call a swing voter, right? it just doesn't track. i think the more serious thing is that hunter biden is the last survivor of that car crash at christmas 1972. >> yeah. >> everyone -- essentially 20%.

i don't know a family, including my own, not affected by addiction. and the accountability, as you rightly point out, the machinery of accountability, and guess what? the rule of law is applying here. the president of the united states has removed himself from this, explicitly, consistently, honorably, and lets the rule of law unfold. this is what we call practicing what you preach. that's what president biden has done. and i'm a father. you're a mother. i mean, just put yourself for a nanosecond in the position of a parent with a child going through what hunter is going through. i think you would see that it's difficult, complicated, painful. but as you say, it is remarkable to me that the president

continues to press forward and do the work of the american people, after a life of remarkable personal tragedy. joe biden's life, if you think about biographically, is full of unexpected events, both for the good and for the bad, right? >> yeah. >> he didn't expect to run for the senate at 29, then the accident. didn't expect to become vice president and did. didn't expect to run in 2020 and did. it's a family story. i think what we all have to do, and i really appreciate the way, mika, predictably, you're talking about it, is understand proportionately and actually be human about these struggles. and wish them all the best. >> yeah. historian jon meacham, thank you very much. molly jong-fast, we'll be

reading your incredible, new piece online now for msnbc. thank you so much for coming up this morning and sharing. so we have a lot more to get to this hour. we're already eight minutes into the second hour of "morning joe." at his rally in las vegas yesterday, donald trump once again suggested he would pardon the january 6th insurrectionists in a second term, whom he called hostages and victims and warriors. he also accused the capitol police, who were brutalized during the attack, of setting up the rioters to be arrested. >> we're going to do a lot of things. we're going to look strongly at j-6, those people. there has never been people treated more horrifically than j-6 hostages. the j-6 warriors, they were warriors, but they were, more than anything else, victims of what happened. all they were doing is

protesting a rigged election. that's what they were doing. then the police say, "go in, go in, go in, go on in, everyone. go on in." what a setup that was. what a horrible, horrible thing. >> as for what actually happened on january 6th, on footage we just obtained from congressional sources, shows top democratic lawmakers questioning the whereabouts of the national guard during the january 6th capitol attack. as the capitol was being overrun, then house speaker nancy pelosi grilled her chief of staff about the situation as they were evacuated for their safety. take a look. >> you're going to ask me in the middle of the thing when they've already breached the inaugural stuff that they'd call the capitol police, the national guard? why wasn't the national guard

there? >> the footage also shos nancy pelosi and chuck schumer speaking with mccarthy and later washington mayor bowser about the status of their request for help from the national guard. >> secretary mccarthy and senator schumer, do you know what's going on? okay, d.c. has requested the national guard. it's been denied by d.o.d. i'd like to know a good god damn reason it's been denied. we need them fast. i've never seen anything like this. we're like a third-world country here. we had to run and evacuate the capitol. yes, they have not denied it. i spoke to the secretary of the army. he has given it a full okay and said it was not denied. i'm calling up the f-ing secretary of d.o.d. >> we have had mixed messages

about -- okay, thank you -- about the national request, our request, as well, for the national guard to move in. >> okay. madam speaker, let me give you a rundown. capitol police sent the request for the national guard for probably more than an hour ago. there was -- i thought there was some resistance from the secretary of the army folks to deploy personnel on the ground for the capitol. >> it took more than three hours, three hours for the national guard to arrive to that chaotic scene, to that riot, to the attack on the capitol. according to "politico," four former members of the guard described a frustrating experience of being prevented for hours from being able to respond and recounted senior

army officials expressing concern about the optics of deploying the guard. but they saved their fiercest criticism for mccarthy. kevin mccarthy. who they described as -- i'm sorry -- oh, for the army, a totally different mccarthy. i apologize. the person they were trying to reach there on the phone, they described as unresponsive to their outreach in the midst of the chaos. republicans have spent years accusing pelosi of neglecting her duty to defend the capitol. despite evidence that it was a shared responsibility among congressional leaders who, in turn, relied on the assessments of police and security officials. but as "politico" reports, the new footage does not bolster gop claims of many pelosi being at fault. instead, it largely aligns with

and adds depth to previous snippets of alexandra pelosi's footage released by the january 6th select committee and in an hbo documentary that was released in 2022. the unaired footage also shows democratic leaders demanding that then president donald trump tell his supporters to leave the capitol. january 6th. here is nancy pelosi and chuck schumer speaking with acting attorney general jeff rosen. >> get the president to tell them to leave the capitol, mr. general, in your law enforcement responsibility. a public statement, they should all leave. his tweet said, "we are for peace." >> law and order. >> law and order. why don't you get him to make that statement? would you do that? >> we're -- >> will you ask the president to make a statement to ask them to leave the capitol?

>> so, as you might guess, we're coordinating as quickly and as -- >> no, no, no. please answer my question. answer my question! >> senator, i'm going to do everything i can do. >> does that include asking the president to get these people who are followers of his to leave the capitol? >> joining the question, we have the host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. former supreme allied commander of nato, james stavridis. he is chief international analyst for nbc news. and staff writer at "the atlantic," anne applebaum. what a great panel. hardly know where to start. there are a lot of great voices. i want to back up and rephrase what i said because i mentioned the wrong mccarthy. according to "politico," four former members of the guard described a frustrating experience of being prevented for hours from being able to respond to the attacks on the

capitol and recounted senior army officials expressing concerns about the optics of deploying the guard. they saved their fiercest criticism for mccarthy, who they described as unresponsive to their outreach in the midst of the chaos. that's army secretary ryan mccarthy. and not having the national guard respond, i mean, in so many ways, i think i need to start with anne applebaum and go backwards. anne, what does this say to you, when you see these details and this friction at all levels in terms of how to respond to this, and lives hanging in the balance as it appears that they don't want to actually stop the chaos that's from the president on down? >> i have to tell you, my first reaction is to ask why we didn't talk about this 3 1/2 years ago,

why it's taken so long for all of our courts really to come to terms with what happened on january 6th, and why we haven't, as a society, dealt with it yet. i mean, some of these details are new, and some of them are more shocking and come in a slightly different version. actually, we've known this story for a long time, and we haven't acted. i think that's, you know, a part of the explanation for why the perpetrators are getting away with it. >> admiral stavridis, let's talk about chain of command and other issues here. this was clearly botched on just about every level that day. we saw it in real time, that the national guard needed to be there and wasn't. as someone who worked in the pentagon so long, what happened? >> first, you kind of have to see what happens on the capitol that day through the filter of lafayette park, previous protests. >> yeah. >> the pentagon did not take the lessons learned that they should

have out of that series of events. point two, i just want to draw a line under how every active duty reserve, guard, retired like me, veterans, all of us watched the capitol that day and felt we needed to be there. we needed to be there. that is the ultimate responsibility of the military, is to back up law enforcement when it simply becomes overwhelmed, as it did here. finally, in terms of the chain of command that day and the exact sequence of events, to me, this entire episode screams for a 9/11 level commission. >> mm-hmm. >> where we pull it apart, read every statement made by every leader, put it all back together again, and draw the lessons. the correct lessons, pretty

obviously, are not that these people were hostages. look, i know what a hostage looks like. i've tried to rescue them over the years in the military. >> right. >> these are hardly hostages. they're clearly rioters, criminals, many of them now convicted felons. we need to reverse engineer this and understand how it got so far out of hand. that work has yet to be done. >> certainly, there are hostages right now in gaza that we talked about earlier in the show. donny, let's talk about juxtaposition. we have donald trump talking about j6 warriors and hostages. then the developments here, more behind the scenes footage of congress in a panic trying to get the help but not getting the help they needed. terrible images from january 6th. this is more than politics, but it is a campaign year. this is part of the biden and

democrats' job, to remind americans what the trump years were like, but also how they ended with january 6th. how do they do it? >> you have to keep going back to it. you know, january 6th should be absolutely -- i want to talk to my trump voter, any swing voter -- should be absolutely disqualifying to vote for donald trump. we have a president who, this weekend, was talking about the j6 hostages. once again, hostages when we have real hostages in israel and gaza, what's going on there. yet, to call these men that were storming the capitol, that were killing police officers, calling them patriots, hostages, great americans, that they were told to just go in, how do you place your vote just on that? forget everything else. i just -- it is so offensive that anybody can look past this in any other way but say, this is completely disqualifying. they tried to overthrow the government. we're numb to it at this point. it is almost four years later,

3 1/2 years later. it is insane. it's insane. the president stands up as if this footage doesn't exist. to me, to any trump voter out there, how do you explain this? how do you rationalize it? what do you say? baffling. >> we're talking about what donny is talking about, threats to democracy here in the united states. when we look across the atlantic at what happened over the course of the weekend with the european union's parliamentary elections, and we see the gains that have been made by the far right, in a way, you see something different but similar happening, which is the normalization of policies which were once considered out of the norm, once considered extreme. i think my takeaway from the elections in europe this weekend is that that contingent of far-right policies is now mainstream in the united states. how do you look at what happened over the weekend in the parliamentary elections, and how do you tie it to what's happening here in the united states? >> so i was actually hoping i could cheer you up a little bit about the european elections because, in fact, it's 27

different elections. some of the results were pretty good. there was no far-right surge in scandinavia or poland or in spain. actually, the reverse happened in several places. the center left recovered in a number of countries, including the netherlands, including even france, where it had almost disappeared. but it's true that the really big -- well, the two big stories are in germany and france. in germany, a far-right party that has used explicitly kind of violent and extremist language did do very well. of course, in france, where marine le pen's party, which has a lot history going back many decades and had been sort of ancient roots in vichy, did extremely well. so well, the president of france decided to call snap elections. i would only say this cautionary thing, which is, european elections are often -- they're a

little bit odd. they're not real national elections. they're often used as a kind of protest vote or people experimenting, voting for different kinds of parties they don't usually vote for. it may be that macron's decision to call snap elections, for example, is because he thinks the french -- i mean, he is gambling, of course, but he thinks that the french won't vote for le pen if it means she'd actually run the country. we'll see. to tie it to the united states, again, is a little dicey, but your basic point, the language that used to be considered out of bounds in the u.s. language, attacking the u.s. constitution, attacking other u.s. institutions, undermining law enforcement, all that kind of language that used to be considered far outside the mainstream is now normal. you do have a change in the way people are talking about european politics and european democracy, as well. i think that language that was once on the fringes is now

mainstream. we can say that everywhere. >> admiral stavridis, just to kind of learn from the lessons of history on the rise of authoritarianism, to donny's point, you would think that january 6th would be the line for anybody who is a supporter of trump, who just checks in a little bit as to what's going on. but, again, isn't this how it happens? the sort of blithering amount of events that test the system. anything from comments like calling those who sacrificed and died for our country losers, not wanting to show up to the normandy events because he doesn't want to get his hair wet, calling those who sacrificed and died, what was in it for them, talking about our soldiers that way. the dead from covid on his watch

because he withheld that information from the country, let alone told people to put bleach in their system. the overturning of roe, these are major events. there are many minor ones that are horrifying, as well. the promise to go after -- i wouldn't call this minor -- to go after enemies. the promise of retribution if re-elected. i think to answer donny's question, but perhaps youbetter normalizing or blithering people with horrendous information and facts and actions, almost to the point where they can't remember them, isn't that how it happens? >> of course it is. i have said many times, we're living through this 1930s moment, meaning that we come out in the -- we the world -- at the end of the first world war. the united states walks away

from europe, comes home. we erect huge tariff barriers. it cracks the global economy. think of that as kind of a pandemic-like event. by the way, there was a pandemic, the spanish influenza. >> yes. >> all of the institutions of government in the 1930s appear to be failing. they appear to be failing to the populations in germany. they appear to be failing to the populations in japan. these kind of events lead to the rise of fascism. you can drop a plum line from them to this normalization, this sense that anything goes and there's failure all around us. so much of what we're seeing is anti-incumbency driven by these kinds of events. all of it, of course, magnified in today's era by short,

nonsensical tiktok videos, the constant connection to the internet, all that has a dilution effect. put it all together, we have a dangerous moment. certainly in europe, you have a mixed bag. here in the united states, i'm quite concerned as we head toward the election this fall. we need a clear-eyed dose of history to show us how this could turn out. it would not be well for democracy and the republic. >> no. retired admiral james stavridis and "the atlantic's" anne applebaum, thank you, both, for being on this morning. as we were just discussing, former president trump was campaigning in las vegas yesterday. days before that, he was in phoenix. a city our next guest is writing about. joining us now, staff writer at "the atlantic" george packer. he is the author of the

magazine's new cover story entitled "the valley." in it, george, you write this, "phoenix makes you keenly aware of human artifice, its ingenuity and agility. the american lust for new things and new ideas, good and bad ones, is most palpable here in the west, but that dynamo that generates all the microchip factories and battery plants and downtown high-rises and master plan suburbs runs so high that it suggests its own oblivion. new yorkers and chicagoans don't wonder how long their cities will go on existing, but in phoenix in august, when the heat had broken 110 degrees for a month straight, the desert golf courses and urban freeways give this civilization an air of impermanence, like a mirage composed of sheer hubris, and a

surprising number of inhabitants began to brood on its disappearance. democracy is also a fragile artifice. it depends less on tradition and law than on the shifting contents of individual skulls -- belief, virtue, restraint. its durability under natural and human stress is being put to an intense test in the valley. and because a vision of vanishing now haunts the whole country, phoenix is a guide to our future." so, if you could build upon that thesis, george, where are we going? because you're scaring me. i'm already scared, honestly. >> if you read the whole piece, if viewers read the whole piece, and it's long, they will come away with the sense of a laboratory -- this is why "the

atlantic" wanted me to spend a year reporting and writing about phoenix -- it's a laboratory of whether this country can succeed or not. there are reasons to say yes, it can. because phoenix is constantly growing. the dynamism is incredible. when you come from an old eastern or northern city, you just are struck by the energy, how much is going on, how many people are moving there, the number of microchip factories, battery plants that are constantly being built all over the valley, and the amount of money that's being poured into it, as well, partly by the biden administration's big infrastructure and climate and microchip bills. so there's a lot to look at and say this country is not in a state of decadence. it is not this faded superpower that is on its way out. but there are two things going

on in that area that are of great concern. one is a climate crisis. here we are in early june, and it's already breaking 110 degrees every day in phoenix. four months of unlivable heat doesn't strike me as a sustainable place. connected to that is water. phoenix, the city, has a lot of water. they have been extremely foresighted in planning and in building infrastructure. but the area around it and rural arizona is running out of water because the groundwater, which is irreplaceable, is being pumped excessively. the other problem is extremism. political extremism. phoenix is a hotbed of it. in fact, i went to the convention of turning point usa while i was reporting this story, and i got to say, i've never wanted to make any

comparisons to nuremberg. i tried to keep it out of my mind while i was there, but it felt quite intense because of the amount of lying and demagoguery coming from the stage and the sheer level of hatred being instilled in the crowd. i didn't feel the crowd was hateful, but the hatred coming from the stage which is clearly the grift. it's the way an organization like that and others in the country survive and thrive. that is pumping into the system of phoenix so much suspicion of institutions and of elections. election denialism is the main activity of the republican party in arizona. you have to ask yourself, how do you solve a problem like water if there is such an intense

attack on democracy itself? >> george, on this further, i mean, arizona, phoenix is the largest piece of it, is now a swing state, sort of unexpectedly to some. it's only going to add to this sort of tinderbox. it also is one of the hot spots, forgive the pun, for perhaps the most divisive issue in the country, immigration. then there is the abortion lane, as well. speak a little bit more of, there is a sense of, yes, promises of the future, but real fragility in the city. >> yes. you mentioned those two issues. one of those has become the main issue for the democrats, and that's abortion. the arizona supreme court ruled in 1864, pre-statehood law, pretty much banning every abortion remained the law of the land. the state legislature overturned that, but it remains a live issue. democrats are hoping that that becomes their main turnout point. immigration is the issue for republicans. the arizona border, i went down to the border when i was doing

this story and just saw, yeah, every night, every morning, there are hundreds of people gathering at the wall. my sympaties are with them. they are suffering. they are fleeing either desperation or persecution. but it is an untenable situation because it simply has reached a point where the public broadly knows that the border is too porous to call it a real border. that issue has become a republican issue, and they're trying to get a statewide initiative that would deport every undocumented person in arizona, which is a lot of people. a lot of lives that have been woven into the fabric of the phoenix area in a really, i think, important way. who knows how those shake out? i'm not going to predict the election, but it is kind of the cockpit of the election. >> george, i want to circle back to the heat and the water.

>> yeah. >> someone might say those things might just have something to do with climate change. >> yeah. >> how do the people in arizona deal with those issues? because the right essentially rejects climate change, almost culturally. how are these issues talked about? >> great question, richard. i went around with this guy who hauls water in one of the areas north of phoenix whose wells are dry or don't have wells. in the middle, there was a political crisis that stopped the flow of water to this town. rio verde. this guy had been warning people this was coming because the colorado river was drying up. customers would say, it rained last week. there's no climate crisis. it's not happening. now, they don't say that because their water got cut off. it is happening in rural arizona, too. i went to a county downborder,

wells are going dry there because of agri-business coming in and pumping relentlessly for dairy farms, nut farms. the neighbor of the farm, a conservative republican, by the way, sees their well is gone dry, and suddenly they want the state to come in and regulate ground water. water is an issue, i think, that can make people sane. it is undeniable. there are no facts that can deny your well has gone dry. once that happens, you might start thinking that maybe what i'm hearing from the national party doesn't make sense for me. i need to go against what i've been told. >> the new cover story is out now. "the atlantic's" george packer, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. take care. >> my pleasure. up next, a bit of a palate cleanser with espn's pablo torre. it was a packed sports weekend, including game two of the nba finals. the french open finals and the

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do it all on the network made for streaming, and bring on the good stuff. tatum, doncic. tatum to the rim, shot blocked. derrick jones with the rejection. washington drives. blocked by white! oh, what a block from derrick white! >> derrick white's chase-down block preserved a five-point

lead for the celtics in the final minute last year, helping seal another boston victory over the dallas mavericks in the nba finals. jrue holiday's 26 points led another all-around effort by the celtics, who overcame a 32-point triple-double from luka doncic to beat the mavs, 105-98. they take a 2-0 series lead. series shifts to dallas for games three and four later this week. joining us now, the hostpablo torre. >> america's team up 2-0. >> as jonathan lemire says. >> here's what i'll say, tatum was bad. they couldn't hit a three. porzingis got banged up the end of the game. he says he is fine, but this is a worry. this is the game that celtics usually lose most of the year, but they still won. >> the block kind of was a foul. >> i don't want to hear it. >> just saying, kind of was a

foul, how the game revolved. the frustrating part, as some have maybe picked the mavericks to win this series, maybe on this side of the table, allegedly, i stand by it. but it's hard. it's hard to stand by a team that is getting outplayed by truly a depth chart of really good players. i mean, jrue holiday, you know, there is a great theory of the n pa and the nba finals that i subscribe to. whoever has the most talented players tends to win. that's the story of the nba throughout time. i'm not saying that jaylen brown and jayson tatum aren't great men. they are. but they're getting outplayed by their own teammates. porzingis. game two, jrue holiday, in my mind. the mavs don't have the depth. so you have a series, john, that has me crediting the front office of the celtics as much as anything. the guys who built this organization. yes, they've had an easy run. and you have to admit this, an easy run to the finals. >> sure. >> they played a bunch of injured teams.

luka doncic also injured in this series. they've also been the most dispositively greatest team. >> you can't help what the series gives you. >> yes. richard, turning to baseball. >> not golf. >> so many scottie scheffler takes he's been trying to get off. >> they'll be on the bonus cut of the episode. yankees hosted the dodge dodgers. yankees won, two out of three. thousands upon thousands of dodge jerusalem fans invaded the stadium, beautiful to my eyes. how do you feel about the yankees? two out of three, but they're first place and getting cole back. >> dodger fans coming is why we need congestion pricing in new york. >> they already left. >> the governor let us down there. look, two of the three or four best teams in baseball, great. by the way, aaron judge batting

over .300. 24 home runs. >> mvp candidate. >> he's playing at a level that is just a real treat to watch. >> i miss juan soto, richard. his forearm is injured. that is the big story. the lineup changes. again, baseball is not like basketball. continuing this through line. baseball is so much more about not just one guy. because it is about so many more players taking turns. juan soto, the impact of him on this lineup is clear now. aaron judge, thank god, he is the opposite of giancarlo stanton to me. i mean, i don't want to turn this into my airing of grievances. donny deutsch didn't come to the table to hear me complain about giancarlo stanton. >> i did. >> richard haass did. it is embarrassing. it is embarrassing. this is the rich complaining about a couple of issues that probably aren't going to prevent us in our march to the world series, richard, you and me. it's been a little annoying.

>> crowd is chanting, "we want soto." the light-hitting trent grisham, five hits, hitting under .100. he hits a homer. put on the damn pinstripes, and look what happens. we have to move on from the yankees. >> i liked that one. >> how are the red sox, by the way? >> playing .500. >> must be playing a really good team right now. >> decidedly mediocre red sox played the chicago white sox. white sox losing 13 straight. >> two times, look at that. >> outstanding. >> the table is turning on me. let's switch to tennis. >> yes. >> go, lebron. >> let's get out of here. give us your take on both. particularly the men's side, alcaraz, who is, i hope, the next face of tennis. >> yes. he is. i mean, the guy is the youngest player in tennis history to win majors in all three surfaces. of course, the story of tennis has been the big three, right? roger federer, novak djokovic,

rafael nadal. they have the stranglehold. they've been blocking every young person from doing what we're watching alcaraz do, which is dominate and become the next face of tennis. even if you only watch a little bit of tennis, you watch alcaraz, this kid who is 21 years old, for a second, and you realize his athleticism is sa superlative. we haven't seen an athlete like this in the sport ever. how do you reset after the big three? get a big one at the very least. do something like that. >> his championship match in wimbledon last year over djokovic, one of the best identify seen. iga swiatek won three in a row and four out of five. >> yes. >> the other big one, scottie scheffler. >> no, he was not in paris. >> richard. >> scottie scheffler was not in paris. yeah, she's a dominant clay court player on the women's side. >> no doubt. >> the host of "pablo torre finds out" on meadowlark media, pablo, i'm sure we'll talk soon.

we'll see where the nba finals stands. mika, back to you. >> thank you, pablo. thank you, jonathan. coming up, a texas radio host is raising awareness about the state's anti-abortion laws after his family went through a harrowing miscarriage. he joins us ahead with his family's story and the struggles he watched his wife go through after she was denied health care. "morning joe" will be right back. my name is marie. i'm 49 years old and i'm a business owner. i own a lemonade and ice cream shop in florida,

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the texas supreme court ruled she did not qualify for medical exception to the state oes total abortion ban. >> jimmy, joh and jane, three supreme court justices. they told a mother of two she couldn't get the health care she needed, the health care that could save her ability to have children in the future. yeah, they denied the health care her doctor said could save her life, because jimmy john and jane didn't think she was close enough to losing her life and fertility. >> that's a new ad by find out pac, a group working to unseat three texas supreme court justices, who voted to uphold the state's strict ban on abortion health care. this morning, one texas father is partnering with the pac ahead

of father's day calling on all dads to join the fight for women's reproductive rights say ing the stakes are too high to stay silent. he would know. ryan hamilton, a texas radio host, recently went public about the nightmare, the ordeal he and his wife faced after doctors told them the baby had no fetal heartbeat. at the same time, she was more than three months into the pregnancy with their second child, ryan says his wife was denied proper medical care and nearly died. due to the current abortion health care ban in texas. that ban restricts all abortion proceed juries after six weeks of pregnancy before most women know they are pregnancy pregnant. he described how his wife was sent home from the hospital three times and the horror of finding her bloody and unconscious on the bathroom floor.

his wife ultimately miscarried. ryan joins us now along with the rounder of find out pac, she's also former undersecretary of the u.s. air force and an iraq war veteran. we welcome you back to the show. thank you. ryan, i'm so sorry about what your family has been through. and i understand it continues with negative reaction you have gotten from the public after sharing your gut wrenching and horrifying story. what's happening? >> yeah, the last thing we ever expected was to go through what we have been through for my wife to lose the baby and then face blowback on the internet. it's just not something you take into consideration. we were just trying to share with the people to keep up with

us in our life together. and never expected it to go as big as it has gone. it's an insane level of hate and ignorance from these people that are saying they are conservative christians, but our experience so far, there's been nothing conservative or christian about the way they are acting. it's really, really terrible. >> what makes it more tshl, if that's possible, is thes case of what your wife went through, what your family has endured is exactly the example the why abortion is health care. that you need these proceed juries to save ament woman's life, especially when the fetus doesn't have a heartbeat.

you don't let her bleed out, sterilize her and hope she survives when you have the ability medically to save her life with abortion health care, abortion health care. abortion is health care. and they don't want to admit it. they hide behind religion. let me tell you, that religion does not stand up for what they are saying. that's a whole knotter segment. the lie is deep that you're hearing from the christians in your life or the christians on the internet. jena, tell me about the pac because i have noticed. i love this outreach to fathers. i have noticed in the fast few years that men are becoming increasingly aware and supportive of this issue, and that they see clearly that abortion is health care.

they understand that the women they love, whether it's their mothers, their sisters, their wives, that they need access to these options. how are you reaching out to fathers, and how has the response been so far? >> mika, good morning, thank you for having us on. the courage of ryan and the courage of folks like amanda and lauren, plaintiffs in the other case, in which the texas supreme court also ruled against them, shows why it's so important that we have a different bench. we are not going to have different outcomes in our state unless we have different judges on the texas supreme court. and yes, men are also rightly recognizing that very simple fact. certainly, this is not only an attack on a woman's reproducive freedom, but an attack on his family. the response they have shown -- an attack really on a woman's

freedom, on a family's freedom to family plan, but also the basic freedom that everyone in this country expects, which is the ability to listen to their doctor. these texas supreme court justices are not doctors. they are partisan elected officials. and for them to say that they know more than ryan's wife's doctor is outrageous. but again, we can fix that come november by flipping these three seats and putting our state on the right path. i think it's important to understand that in texas, we don't have a formal ballot initiative, but holding these three justices accountable for what they have done, for what that bench has done and likely to do, there's nothing to suggest that the texas supreme court as partisan as they come, all nine republicans, would act in any way differently than the alabama state supreme court, which has gone after ivf. less than two years from the anniversary of the fall of of roe, they are already talking about going after birth control.

we know exactly where this texas supreme court would land on this issue. they have shown the real threat ha that they pose to reproductive freedoms in this country. i think what's also important sometimes it's lost in this that texas was a post roe state before roe fell. texas writes the playbook for the rest of the country. we had a six-week abortion ban, no exceptions for rape or incest for almost a year before roe fell. so it's really important what is happening in texas based on what that bench allows the texas supreme court because it doesn't only affect texas, it affects the entire country. folk cans can go to learn more to make a contribution. >> just standby both of you. we're going to take a one-minute break. then we're going to dig deeper into strategy and what specific cases are next many your state and also what's next for ryan and his family. we'll be right back. what's nex and his family we'll be right back.

we're back with ryan hamilton, a texas radio host, who is on the air this morning for a very different reason. his wife was denied medical treatment and miscarried anderer life was in danger because she could not get abortion health care. and jena ortiz jones, founder of the find out pac, which is working to fix, replace three texas supreme court justices.

katty kay has the next question. >> ryan, thank you for joining us and sharing your story. i'm so sorry for what you and your wife had to go through. one thing that i heard from republicans is the overturning of roe v. wade is there are provisions in the new law that should prevent the kind of situation that your family was put in. and the yet time and again, we hear that doctors aren't clear about what they are able to do. the supreme court and the lawyers on the republican side may say the doctors should be clear, but when you went to two different hospitals to try to get treatment, was there clarity amongst doctors about what they were allowed to do, or did you think they weren't quite clear what the law was. >> great question. this seems to get brugt up time and time again since we shared what happened. and they were very quick to prescribe a drug. when you're in the fog of

hearing the devastating news that your way by no longer has a heartbeat, you count on the doctor to go, okay, here's what we're doing. here's what's best for you. you need this procedure. it's called a d and c. it's the same procedure used in an abortion. and our experience was okay, here are your options. you can get this surgery essentially, or we could write you this prescription, which is what we'd like to do, and send you home to handle it at home. and that was really scary, of course, and confusing because we're supposed to go home and handle this? why isn't the conversation, let's get this woman to a hospital immediately to do this procedure to help her. and her health.

not, okay, here's what we probably should do, but instead, let's prescribe you this medicine. it feels very, very backwards. the doctors feel very scared and very unsure. and what i didn't know, what we didn't know is after you're sent home to do that on your own and it goes wrong, like it did with my wife, she still gets a positive pregnancy test. so you have to monitor the hcg levels, and hers are still high. she's still getting a positive pregnancy test. what happened even though the baby is no longer with her, there's still -- there remains some of of her uterusen liing

because she didn't get the surgical proceed jury, so she still may have to get a d and c any way. there's still risk of infection. accept us is can kill my wife. instead of just doing the procedure in the first place, which they seemed scared to do because it was side by side with word abortion. >> one of the justices is a woman. it you had a direct message to her if she's watching now, what do you want to say to her? >> look, i don't think we need to reason with those folks. those folks have been very clear about what they are willing to do. they are willing to sell the rest of us out f that means that potentially keeps them in their good graces, that means they can get into higher positions. i want to pick up on one thing that ryan said though. these doctors, time and time again, have said they exactly

what they need to do. they are very scared of a consequences of somebody saying that's not what i would have done. this is a really important point. because in the supreme court, they have repeatedly said that the measure they want these doctors to use is the reasonable standard, which is what another doctor have done the same thing as you. we all know in our daily lives you can always somebody that said that's not what i would have done. that doctor faces prison time. faces thousands of dollars in fines. loses their license. the consequences are very real today. i think we're also seeing the long-term consequences of medical residents now not wanting to the colt to our state to practice. again, that's truly unfortunate for our state, a state where 1 in 10 kids calls home. which is why it's so important. it we want want different

outcolts in our state, we have to have different judges on that bench. but to your point earlier, it's not just about jane. we'd like her to remember she's a woman, but look, jimmy and john, they are just as bad. this is our opportunity to start to flip that supreme court. wisconsin did not happen overnight. the flipping of the wisconsin supreme court we have an opportunity at this point to tie the suffering, the needless suffering of these women and these texas families to the decisions of jimmy, john and jane. 82% of texans are with us on this issue based on a recent poll. 82% of texans support a medical exception. it's not even closes. so this bench, extremely partisan, and we can flip them because texans are with us on this issue. >> thank you both very much for being on the show this morning.

thank you. thank you for what you're doing. coming up, president biden honors world war ii troops in france and heralds the importance of global alliances, while donald trump rails against teleprompterss during a rambling speech in las vegas. talking about sharks, being flip about a woman critically injured, things like that. we'll talk about the very stark difference between the two leaders. plus donald trump will be one step closer to learning his legal fate in new york city when he meets with his probation officer today. a preview of that is ahead on "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. hat is "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds pneumonia vaccine. so am i. because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. i'm getting prevnar 20 because there's a chance... ...pneumococcal pneumonia could put me in the hospital.

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we wanted to pay our respect. >> everybody was so worried yesterday about you. they never mentioned me. i'm up here. >> there's no quit in america. none. none. there's no quit in america. >> secret service said we have to make everyone is safe. i said, what about me? oh, we never thought about that. >> the best way to avoid these battles in the future is to stay strong with our allies. do not break. do not break. >> you feel the breeze? i don't want anybody going on me. we need every voter.

>> president biden wraps up a visit to france honoring the world war ii veterans there, while donald trump campaigns in las vegas. post conviction. we'll have more on that split screen from over the weekend. meanwhile, today donald trump is set to have an interview with a probation officer. we'll explain what that means for the upcoming sentencing for his contract conviction. plus the traumatic rescue by israeli forces of four hostages from hamas captivity. we'll go over what we're learning about that operation, the emotional reunions that took place afterwards, and the potential impact on the remaining hostages and the overall war in gaza. some incredible scenes on both sides. good morning, welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, june 10th. with us we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire.

u.s. special correspondent katty cay is with us. and richard haas is here. we will be jointed later by historian john meacham. but president biden is back in the u.s. this morning after a busy week in france. that focused on reaffirming america's commitment to its allies and commemorating 80 years since d-day. yesterday the president and first lady capped their trip to a visit to the american cemetery, the resting place of nearly 2,300 war dead with over 1,000 names of the missing inscribed on the interior wall of its chapel. the location saw heavy fighting nearby during world war ii with the chapel itself still bearing a hole caused by an artillery shell, which was left as a reminder of what took place there. the president finished his trip to france by paying his respects to the fallen.

afterwards, he spoke to reporters about the sacrifices those troops made and the importance of standing by allies. >> we stop the germans. we stopped the germans. and the idea that we're able to avoid being engaged in a major bat until europe is not realistic. that's why it's so important that we continue to have the alliances we have. continue to beef up the alliances. continue to keep nato strong, continue to do what we have been able to do for the last since the end of world war ii. and so we wanted to come pay our respects. >> more marines were last here. the idea that i come to norman day and not make the short trip here to pay tribute, and it's the same story. think about it.

america showed up. america showed up to stop the germans. america showed up to make sure that they did not prevail. america showed up. america showed up. >> i aknowledge the best way to avod these battles in the future is to stay strong with our allies. do not break. do not break. >> so while president biden was saluting our veterans over the weekend attending dinners with important allies and doing a speech on the world stage, donald trump was delivering a campaign speech in vegas in swellering heat yesterday, trump dealt with teleprompter issues throughout the afternoon causing him to go off script. >> he just came up on the teleprompter is not working. not even a little bit.

great job. and then i don't pay the company that does it. then i end up with a story. trump doesn't pay. i don't pay contractors that do a blood pressure job. that's a [ bleep ] job. >> this is the worst border in the history of the world. there's never been no third world country has a border like that. and no -- i hope the military revolts at the voting booth. >> i went to a vote company in south carolina. said, how is it? he said it's a problem, sir is. they want to make all electric boats. i said nobody ever asked this question. it must be because my relationship to m.i.t. very smart. i say what would happen if the boat sank from its weight? you're in the boat and you have this tremendously powerful battery, and the battery is now underwater and there's a shark that's approximately ten yards

over there. a lot of shark attacks lately, have you noticed that? i watched some guys justifying it today. they weren't really that angry. they bit off the young lady's leg buzz of the fact they were not hungry, but they misunderstood who she was. these people are great. he said there's no problem with sharks. they just didn't really understand a young woman swimming. a lot of shark attacks. so there's a shark ten yards away from the boat. you won't get elected if the boat is sinking. do i stay on top of the boat and get electrocuted or do i jump over by the shark and not get electrocuted? he didn't know the answer. nobody has ever asked me that question. i said, i think it's a good question. i think there's a lot of electric current coming through that water, but you know what i would do if there's a shark or get electrocuted? i will take electrocution every single time. i'm not kidding.

>> some what call that completely unfit to deal with the challenges as the leader of the free world. just completely unfit. let's bring in the rogers chair and american presidency of vanderbilt university john meacham the. not trying to be flip or funny. that was just disturbing and kind of crazy talk of of a guy he did not know what to say when his prompter failed. compared to president biden, like his policies or not, explain the split screen that is america's choice today. >> it's very clear. there's not a lot of mystery here. we have a president who is trying to maintain and strengthen a post world war ii

order that for all its imperfections has prevailed in a largely peaceable way since those men took the beaches at normandy and went to berlin, prevailed in the pacific. president truman in a surprising turn, most people didn't who he was when he became president in 1945, grows in the job in a remarkable way, establishes nato, establishes the marshal plan. here's a branding question. harry truman told george marshal reportedly that if he the call ed it the truman plan, nobody would support it. so they should call it the marshal plan. there's a kind of humility there. a sense he had to put the good of the country above your personal good. and if anybody has any doubts about this, i don't quite know what else to tell them. expect to do when you just did

and show that we have a choice here between a president who thinks about the american people first, and a former president who thinks largely, if not entirely, about himself. >> so that's kind of the concern here in the united states is there's so much material to work with over the weekend between these two choices. one on the right, who promises to be a dictator, who promises to exact retribution on anybody who made him angry or held him accountable, and one on the left who, again, you may not agree with his policies and his legislaion, even though he has accomplished more than most modern, it not all, modern american presidents. he entorss democracy. he agrees with democracy. he wants to preserve our

democracy. there's the choice. we have heard it a million times. and yet, and i have to say it because a lot of people are influenced by what they watch on fox news. and i watch the sunday shows. there's all this material. there's this crazy speech in nevada in the heat, where he talks about a the wol who lost her leg in a shark attack and makes fader for his speech. at a time where there's hostages being held in one of the two major wars that president biden is dealing with. israeli hostage, some of them americans, who are being tortured and truly held captive, but he wants to say the people who defecated on the capitol, ran through the halls, talked about killing nancy pelosi and

mike pence, those people who are being held accountable for their crimes by courts through the law, he wants to call them hostages. it's sick. it's depraved. i don't need to say it is depraved. and yet on fox news, i watched a segment about whether or not trump would be a tick indicate tick cater, and after running a number of segments, because he promises to do the things that are like acts committed by a dictator or says he will be one, and then some person on the right who says there's no proof he said it. he didn't say it. then a sound byte of sean hannity asking if he would be a dictator and trump not answering the question. then the host saying, there, it's set is theed. he's not going to be a dictator. we'll be right back. i have to say it because so many people are influenced by what

they watch on fox news. and they are not giving a clear picture. yet moving forward, is it not clear the picture? am i crazy? i have eyes, and i see one person who doesn't seem at all sane, who loves dictators and wants to be one, and another who is getting a little older, but frankly doing quite well on the world stage under pretty tough circumstances. answering questions on his own with no teleprompter and sounding just fine. >> this weekend was exactly what the biden team -- by the way, congratulations on getting a balanced news diet. it's in this tribal polarized world, it's probably beneficial for everybody to get some kind of balanced news indict so we start knowing what other people are hearing when it comes to news context. i think you're right. it is very easy if we watch one

source of news or the source of news that falls with our own political believes, that's when you might get taken by surprise in an election when you don't win it and think, my god, i was hearing all of this stuff. and that applies to both. it's a public service announcement to get a balanced news diet. but this is what the biden campaign wants. they want more of what we saw this weekend. all of that material that you're talking about that we played those clips from, it is sort of tempting to laugh at the meandering nature. i don't even know what that was. was that a woke pro shark attack or critique wib don't know what that was or why it crept into the speech. but it's what the biden campaign feels in a way that the race has been frozen during the course of the trial. it was put on pause almost because donald trump was tied up

in a courtroom. now he will be back. the biden campaign ses this as advantageous to them. it will be interesting to see how those clips about the shark, about especially the line about i don't care about you, i just want your the vote, how that's played on news outlets. does it get any air time? is it just dismissed as that's the kind of thing he says. you mustn't take him too seriously. it's hard to know what breaks through in this incredibly siloed news world that we all live in. it's ha hard to know what breaks through. but the biden team thinks the best chance they have is making this a ref rent referendum on donald trump. the more he says things, the choice becomes more stark. sglu heard from some advisers in recent days who think the trip to france did breakthrough. but they are honest about it. the eyes of the world's media

was going to be on the president because he was parred of the d-day anniversary. he had the spotlight. it was carried here in the u.s. that's going to be hard to recreate in the day-to-day of domestic politics. it's going to be another spotlight the there this week. it was an implicit contrast they created. i wrote about it as well. biden never mentioned trump's name. he didn't have to. he talked about alliances. trump wants to undermine american alliances. he talked about needing to stand with ukraine. trump sides with russia. he visited that cemetery yesterday. we played those remarks. that's the semicemetery that donald trump skipped a visit there because it was raining. so there was that contrast as a backdrop to the president's visit to france, but there was another. these european parliament elections. we have seen the far right make real gains across the board. the far right really picked up

steam there. so give us your analysis here. there seems to be bigger head winds here of antiincumbency and the far right on the march. >> two things. one is exactly that. what we're seeing in europe is the cumulative effects of high immigration and low economic growth. european economy has been disappointing now for years. you're right. the bottom line is strong anti-incumbency. that's my second point. look at president biden's talk at the 80th anniversary. he's representing and talking to a traditional world. the victory in world war ii and everything since, the post world war ii order. what's happening in this country, and we saw it in ukraine, we're beginning to see people move away from that, don't understand it, don't study it, don't support it. and donald trump represents that. you have the contrast between alliance first and americ first. what we're also seeing, this is

a worisome development over the weekend, the erosion of the atlantic world on the other side of the atlantic. you're seeing the far right in france, you're seeing it in germany. and along with the rejection of immigration and low economic growth, what we're also seeing is the rejection, in many ways of the atlantic alliance. people aren't so worried about russia. we're seeing the parallelism there. i would think for joe biden and company, this is a warning in two ways. politically, it shows the tenor of the times. this is a very hard moment to be an incumbent. we're seeing that all over the world. saw it recently in india with the surprise there. we saw it in south africa with the results there. and second of all, we're seeing the rejection of a traditional foreign policy. that ought to worry all of us. >> everyone stay put. we're going to sneak in a quick break. we'll tackle the major developments out of the middle east when we come back, where israeli forces rescued four hostages from the gaza strip. what it means for the ongoing war with hamas and white house

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welcome back to "morning joe." manhattan district attorney alvin bragg will testify before the are republican-led house judiciary committee in connection to the criminal hush money trial and conviction. bragg responded to a request from trump ally and judiciary committee chairman jim jordan on friday saying he's willing to testify, but not before trump's sentencing date, which is scheduled for next month. jordan originally requested a hearing this week. bragg's response counters that date saying court proceedings

are not over in the case. the da's letter also asked to speak to the committee about the scope of the proposed testimony. meanwhile, former president trump is scheduled to sit down for a virtual interview later today with a new york city probation officer. that's according to three sources familiar with the matter. it's part of a mandatory step ahead of his july 11th sentencing, following trump's conviction last month on 34 felony counts in his hush money trial. trump will call the in for the interview from mar-a-lago with his lead attorney todd blanche by his side. once the process is finished, the probation officer will deliver a report to the judge, who will use it when determining trump's sentence next month. interesting. one of the things they keep in mind is whether or not a convict criminal has remorse. joining us now, former litigator

and legal correspondent lisa rubin. with all your time in the courtroom, i want to start with you. is this as simple as every american is convicted of a felony, a convicted felon on sentencing day, have to dpo through a meeting like what president trump is going through today? can you lay it out for us? and do you think that he will express remorse and would that matter to the judge? >> let's start with the back half. will he exremorse. the answer has to be no. this is a person who continues to say that the trial was rigged and that there was no crime, including there was no crime specified by the da. you and i know that not to be true. i don't expect to hear any statement of contrition or remorse from former president trump. that's a factor that will go into this presentence

investigation report by the department of corrections and probation. that having been said, this is a process that all criminal defendants go through prior to their sentencing. donald trump is no exception. what makes this unusual is that the interview was happening virtually, but the regulations here provide for virtual interviews and circumstances where curtesy to the court and the precautions that would need to be taken for him to come and visit and costly for new york city, which is already i object cured the cost of this trial. that's why the interview was happening vir yulely. it's also unusual for an attorney to be president, but the judge gave todd blanche his express permission to be present at mar-a-lago when theers and view was held later today. >> let's get you in on an odd development that happened during the case. on friday the judge sent a letter to both parties in the trial learning of a facebook

post at the end of may allegedly says, my cuss season a juror and says trump is getting kwukted. thanks for your hard work. that post has been deleted. nbc news has not identified the poster or the validity of the claim. we don't know if this is real. but it has not stopped trump and his allies suggesting the fix informs and wasn't a fair trial. so walk us through what do we know about this and could it actually have any kind of impact? >> so let's start with could it have any impact. if it were real, there are provisions where you can move to set aside the verdict under new york law. the only remedy for that, where conduct or juror misconduct is concerned is to have a new trial. what you have to show is that the juror misconduct or communications would have had a substantial impact or even could have had a substantial impact on the outcome of the trial. let's move back ward for a

second to what we know about the situation. there's no question in my mind that the judge made this information publicly available because he knew that once he notified the parties, if he didn't control that public access, somebody else was going to. based on screen shots that were taken of this poster's comments, they made this comment more than once. it seems dubious that this person is related to a juror much less that the person is really having any information related to the jury at all. the person's bio says they are professional expletive poster. they take a lot of joy in trying to mix things up. that hasn't stopped the trump campaign from shouting mistrial as former president trump did on one of his truth social posts. do i suspect they will demand an investigation into who this person is and whether any of the jurors had conduct with this person?

absolutely. do i expect it will succeed, absolutely not. that's why i said on friday when this information became available, if this person knows a jury, this is bad. if this persons is just trying to create mischief, that's worse because they will have succeeded in derailing the proceedings without knowing anything at all, without having any legitimate impact on the process. just trying to throw a bomb into the process that has to continue and play out. >> coming up, to hear one church tell it, david french is too polarizing to take part in a panel about polarization. "the new york times" columnist explains what's happening inside his own congregation. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." that's straight ahead on "morning joe." not on summer vacation. join millions of families who've trusted us and find caregivers in your area for kids, seniors, pets, and homes. go to care.com now to find the care you need this summer. (reporters) over here. kev! kev!

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coming up, jude law is our guest. it's called fire brand. straight ahead on "morning jo." ."

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50 years ago a belgium immigrant would forever change the way we looked at fashion with a brand new design. the wrap dress. the years that followed, diane von furstenberg has continued to shatter glass ceilings. but her journey wasn't always as glamorous as it seemed. in a new documentary, oscar winning director gives fans a behind-the-scenes look at the fashion icon as she prepares for a new exhibit. showcasing her incredible life's work. take a look. >> the adventure of my own life has been incredible.

>> influencer. >> feminist icon. >> i was in charge of my destiny. >> i became the woman i wanted to be. >> she reinvented the dress. >> i created the wrap dress, and i wrapped america around. >> the modern woman who could have it all. she was one of the first women to run through the glass ceiling in business. >> now there's a woman. >> how do you get to be a princess? >> in my case, i married a prince. >> she had the attitude. >> it was the time of free love. we thought nothing could be better for you. >> we all had many lovers. david beau wit and mcjagger, that's a great story. i was having a man's life in a woman's body. yes, god, yes.

>> the two-time oscar winning director joins us now to talk more about she calls it the ed a vennture of her life. she's an icon. so tell us about the journey to this moment, what did you find out? >> diane is just incredible, larger than life personality. but her journey from world war ii, where she was a child of a holocaust survivor to today, has taken her from europe to america. this is a story this is a story of an immigrant who came to america with a suitcase full of dresses and ideas, and her wrap dress became this phenomena. her life has been beyond a fashion designer. it's been a life in which she's given to women, opened up doors for other women and really lived life on her own terms. saying that it is possible for a woman to lead the kind of life

that she wants to, without any sort of barriers. she's really lived a man's life in a woman's body, as she likes to call it. >> it's really incredible. tell us about some of the challenges that she confronted along the way. >> diane became a businesswoman at a time when women needed men to co-sign for something as small as a credit card. when she was coming up in the world of business, women weren't even in the conversation. they weren't even on the table. and the amount of sexism that existed in that world for her to break through, wearing a dress and fishnet stockings at a time when women were told to be more like men if they wanted to be taken seriously. she changed the way women were looked at, the potential of women. and i think that story is important to be told today to young women as well, that be yourself and find your own yellow brick road. >> she invented the wrap dress in 1974.

how much did that define her career as a fashion designer, but also how much did it confine her in a sense? did she then become just associated with that? how did she break out of just being the wrap dress woman? >> she likes to say that the wrap dress made her, and i think that's very, very true. she created a dress that became symbolic with the freedom movement, with women feeling liberated. she was creating fashion at a time when fashion was unaccessible to the vast majority of people, and the wrap dress became the symbol. and of course it is what she is associated most with. but as someone said, the wrap dress is like the levi's 501 jeans. it's eternal. it just keeps coming back. >> it's true. i love the wrap dress. so know your value, my women's platform, we celebrate women

over 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, their greatest impact during these decades. and in this clip from the documentary, diane opens up about embracing the aging process. let's take a look together. >> i don't understand why so many people do not embrace age. i've always been attracted by arrangements. age means living. you shouldn't say how old you are. you should say, how long have you lived. if you take all your wrinkles away, you know, the map of your life is different.

i don't really want to erase anything from my life. i'm going to get dressed. >> diane von furstenberg, woman in charge, premieres on disney+ and hulu on june 25th. thank you very much. congratulations on this. >> thank you. >> it looks awesome. and she's just simply awesome. i love her commence on aging and how this is the map of our life. >> absolutely. >> don't erase it. all right. up next, we're going to have a live report from israel just days after idf forces rescued four hostages in gaza. the latest on the operation and the political turmoil within the israeli government as a key

member steps down from the war cabinet. also ahead in our fourth hour, oscar nominated actor jude law will be live in studio with a look at his new film. keep it right here on "morning joe." ible? high taxes can erode returns quickly. at creative planning, your portfolio is managed in a tax-efficient manner. it's what you keep that really matters. book your free meeting today at creativeplanning.com.

a foggy golden gate bridge in san francisco, at just a few minutes before the top of the hour on the west coast, 6:00 a.m., and 9:00 a.m. in the east. welcome back to the fourth hour of "morning joe." jonathan lemire and katty kay still with us. let's get to our top story this hour. we are learning more details about israel's high-risk hostage rescue that unfolded in central gaza over the weekend. on saturday, israeli troops located noa argamani,

andrey mozlov and shlomi ziv and raided two apartment buildings about 200 yards apart. the idf says the hostages were being guarded by armed captors. noa was in an apartment alone and the three male hostages were together. one israeli police commando was killed in the raid. the hamas-run health ministry in gaza says more than 270 palestinians died during saturday's operation. we're going to talk about this more now with nbc news international correspondent matt bradley, who is live in jerusalem. matt, what's the latest and what do you know about numbers on the palestinian side, casualties? >> reporter: well, mika, i know they're sky high and could continue to rise. we've seen the palestinians, as you mentioned, the gazan health officials have said now the death toll for the whole operation of israel into the

gaza strip, that's how topped more than 37,000 people. so this has been a success for israel, this operation, and it's one that is felt throughout this country. there's a lot of celebrations. for the gazans, for palestinians in the gaza strip, this has been a disaster and they're calling this a brutal massacre. so it came at a very, very high cost, and one that could have political implications going forward. we're seeing antony blinken, the u.s. secretary of state in the region trying to shore up a hostage deal. he's been doing that for the past several months. this is going to be more difficult, because now with this incredibly bloody operation, hamas and its associates are going to be even further away, even more less likely to try to ink some sort of deal, and on the israeli side we're going to see people like netanyahu and some of his far right leadership in the cabinet, far right cabinet, they're going to be able to say that the two goals they've been pursuing in the gaza strip, one of them destroying hamas, the other freeing the hostages, those are

both achievable at the same time. that's something that's been a real issue for netanyahu and his government increasingly among the israeli public, those two goals are seen as counter ideas, they can't achieve both and they have to choose one or the other. now netanyahu is going to be able to say and we've been hearing this from some of his allies, that he's going to be able to continue fighting hamas and release the hostages. but let's remember, it was four hostages released at a massive price for the palestinians. it took weeks of planning and intelligence work. one israeli soldier, police officer was killed in this massive operation. so the idea that they can get 80 more, and that's how many are thought to still be alive in gaza, in the tunnels underneath gaza, that will take a lot of work. so even though there's going to be people on the right in israel saying, yes, we can defeat hamas and free the hostages, there's a lot of people in the security establishment, and we've been seeing this in the local media here, saying this just isn't

practical when it comes to freeing all those dozens more who still remain. the other issue that happened yesterday, and this is one that is still going to be having a lot of political implications in israel, is the resignation of benny gantz. you mentioned this a moment ago. it's worth noting benny gantz did not resign from the cabinet itself, what you call in a parliamentary system, the government. so benjamin netanyahu's government is not going to fall or collapse because benny gantz withdrew. he withdrew from the war cabinet and he was one of only three voting members of this emergency coalition government that was only made in the days after october 7th. so he's not necessarily going to have an immediate impact on how the war is governed. if anything, this is going to empower the less moderate voices, some of the far right voices. benjamin netanyahu now has a choice. he can dismantle his small war cabinet which had been empowered with taking some of the major decisions, or he can appoint

someone else to replace benny gantz. that's a big issue, because already some of these far right lawmakers have said that they want in, they want a piece of the action when it comes to governing the war. this whole coalition was made with the express purpose of trying to keep out some of these right wing people, and at the same time trying to give political cover to benjamin netanyahu. it's one of the reasons why benny gantz is stepping away, because he doesn't want to be sullied with the notion he's propping up benjamin netanyahu and giving him political cover for a war that is pushing israel and making it more estranged from the international community. >> wow. nbc's matt bradley, very well put. thank you very much. live from jerusalem. we appreciate your reporting. donny deutsche, that was a really great analysis we just got from matt bradley in his reporting, just about how convoluted it is on both sides. this is what joe biden is trying to navigate, which is a very difficult partner, and that is

understating it, in benjamin netanyahu, who has, as some would argue, ulterior motives to make sure he stays in power, and is not necessarily potentially not thinking for the best of israel, but maybe for the best of himself. and then on the other side, conflicting numbers on casualties and hostages, hidden in neighborhoods. well, who are these people who are holding these hostages, and who is hamas, and is there any difference? questions on all sides. >> the last question i would love to start with. we hear these headlines that four hostages rescued and 270 palestinian civilians killed. we need to start to look at that word civilians. obviously war is ugly. but when in the case of this instance, the hostages were being held by a palestinian journalist, a civilian, a palestinian doctor, a civilian, these are not civilians. these are hamas ambassadors.

there are innocent civilians. but i think back to the hundreds of thousands of rabid gazans as they drug corpses through gaza cheering, hysterical with glee and joy, and it's just, once again, the media coverage. these were four hostages that were taken on a day that 1,200 israelis were slaughtered, maimed, decapitated, killed in the most gruesome way. and i don't know if americans had four hostages that were taken and we had a rescue mission, and, yes, there were 270 casualties and many of those palestinian casualties are deep, deep, deep sympathizers of hamas, would the coverage be the same way? would anybody be criticizing the rescue mission, or would it be truly one of heroism? but i do think we have to start to really talk honestly about the definition of civilian casualties. and this is against the backdrop of even having said that, the lowest civilian to combatant

casualty in the history of war. when i saw those headlines and it was demeaning to the rescue mission -- and obviously there were some innocent people, but civilian, we've got to delve into that word. >> mika, what is clear is the sense of euphoria in israel short lived. there are questions about the raid itself, also with benny gantz's departure, what does that mean for prime minister netanyahu. also, i was talking to a couple of ex-cia operatives who say that they've been told by their colleagues there in israel this was sort of a one-off, they're not sure rescue operations like this going forward will be possible for some of the other hostages in the future. we can certainly hope, but it's unclear that others will get out, which is why there's an emphasis from the biden administration on a cease-fire deal. secretary of state blinken in egypt today, the latest round of diplomacy that has seen him and other top officials go back and forth between these middle east countries to try to break some

sort of deal. but despite president biden's announcement ten days ago of that framework, which was the israeli proposal, we seem no closer to an agreement now than then, in fact, probably further apart. hamas has not signed off and it seems like prime minister netanyahu also backing away from it. >> well, president biden is back in the u.s. this morning, following his trip last week to france to mark the 80th anniversary of the d-day invasion. after his speech on friday at the pointe du hoc cliffs in normandy, the president returned to paris for a state visit where he spoke alongside french president emmanuel macron about the importance of standing by your allies. >> this week we have shown the world once again the power of allies, what we can achieve when we stand together. after this relationship between france and the united states exemplifies. we see ukraine, where our two

countries are standing with the ukrainian people as they fight off putin's brutal aggression. putin is not going to stop at ukraine. it's not just ukraine. it's about much more than ukraine. all of europe will be threatened. we're not going to let that happen. the united states is standing strong with ukraine, we're standing with our allies and with france. meanwhile, early forecasts show far right parties appear to have won major gains in the european parliament elections, while centrist parties maintained a majority of parliament, conservative parties in france, germany and austria appear to be making major inroads in their countries. the results in france were so significant that president macron called for snap elections at the end of this month. meanwhile, the leader of austria's far right party says conservative gains give the party momentum for a national race, adding, quote, one

election influences the other. joining us now, former u.s. ambassador to the european union, and author of a new book entitled "the art of diplomacy: how american negotiators reached historic agreements that change the world" and it is so good to see you. >> mika, thank you very much. >> we go way back, actually. >> we go way back to the carter years when you were a young girl. >> yeah, i was quite well behaved, i think we can both agree, right? >> absolutely. >> okay, my dad might have differed with that. i'm curious, given the situation in israel -- and i don't know if you've heard the conversation over the past few minutes. >> i did. >> but the -- complications on both sides makes this a

tinderbox. how do you think president biden and his team, secretary blinken, are going so far trying to manage this crisis, this war with benjamin netanyahu on one side and his complications and the obvious complications on the other? >> i think they're doing as well as they can under a difficult situation. first we should start with the fact that no government, no country can allow hamas to continue to survive in a realistic sense as a governing and military force when it's committed to your own destruction. but there are three things that are necessary for a successful israeli operation. one is good intelligence. we didn't have it in iraq and afghanistan. israel didn't have it here. they allowed hamas to morph from a terrorist group into a well trained terrorist army. second is decisive force, as colin powell said. but third and critically, is to combine military force, mika,

with a political plan. and a political plan has to come at the beginning before the military. you build the military plan around it. that's why benny gantz has left the war cabinet, because there is no -- to this day nine months later, there's no plan. and, by the way, the plan should be not just to govern gaza the day after the war. it has to be putting gaza in a broader political and diplomatic process. israel's real security will come from being part of a coalition with the moderate countries, egypt, jordan, with morocco, and ultimately with saudi arabia against iran's axis of resistance. after all, it is iran that is really providing the arms and the training for hamas. that's israel's real security. but that will depend ultimately on some palestinian state, a

demilitarized state with security for israel, absolutely essential. that's what biden is trying to work on and tony blinken. >> i have a question about benjamin netanyahu, because you said israel didn't have the intelligence. some would argue it goes a lot further than that. some would say that they were funding hamas over the course of years, and not only did they not have the intelligence -- they had it, but they didn't listen to it or look at it. they rejected it. they had a 40-page blueprint of this attack. >> yes, there were several -- several intelligence mistakes. the one that you mentioned is they so underestimated hamas' capacity, that although they had the blueprint, they didn't think hamas had the capability of doing it. the broader strategic mistake was weakening an already weak

palestinian authority in the west bank, but one which was committed to a peaceful resolution of the conflict and allowing qatar to fund hamas, thinking that they could domesticate hamas. so it was a multiple intelligence failure, and that is one that israel is really paying a price for. >> they're absolutely paying a price for it, but they also won't confront it. when asked again and again and again, benjamin netanyahu or people speaking for him will say that's for later, including the seven, eight, nine, ten hour wait to get to the people who were being raped and killed. i don't think it would take that long just to drive across israel. so i'm curious about that, not having an answer. then the security being moved away from the border in the first place, so they were

completely caught off guard, even though they had a blueprint. my question, ultimately, is netanyahu a solid partner in this? >> there will be a commission that will look at this, and i think the judgment will be very harsh. but in the meantime, he's going to be the prime minister for some period of time, and we have to deal with that. with benny gantz leaving, it actually empowers the far right elements in his coalition, makes it more difficult to achieve the diplomatic peace, which has got to be combined with the military part, and will complicate tony binken's efforts. i think benny gantz left for good reason, there was no post-war plan. but the result is it will empower the far right and they don't want new elections, because they know that the

public will turn against them. so, yes, there will be a reckoning, for sure. there will be a commission, as there was after the '73 war, but that won't come for many months. >> ambassador, i was just looking at the people you interviewed for your book and it's a host of luminaries on both sides of the atlantic. by and large, they are people committed to the idea of a post world war ii transatlantic alliance. i'm just wondering, there's now a new generation of foreign policy types on this side of the atlantic and on the european side of the atlantic as well, who put nationalism first and are less committed to a transatlantic alliance. i wonder if you think there's been a change in the general understanding of america's role in the world that perhaps supersedes many of the people

you spoke to for your book? >> i wrote my book for three reasons, i wanted to show that diplomacy does work and i showed a dozen examples to show that diplomacy still can work. second, i wrote it because i wanted to look at the hot wars with gaza and ukraine going on, that we've fought over the last 50 years to determine when, how and what means one should use. the third, i wrote it because i'm really concerned, and this gets directly to your point, about a growing isolationism in the united states, that we can go it alone. this is what we had between the first and second world wars with catastrophic results, and that is really a great fear. and i think that with the european elections that just happened, there is a risk that we will see a parting of engagement, and that european parliamentary election, the

growth of the far right in germany, in france, in the netherlands, in austria and italy, i think, has one major theme, immigration. and that cuts very much over here as well. but it may also signal a desire by europe to go it alone. i don't think the mainstream believes that, for sure, there's still a majority in the european parliament for the center parties. but it was a real blow to the chancellor of germany, to the president of france, and to the more moderate elements. so i think the whole transatlantic relationship, which has been the basis for keeping the peace, is essential. if we don't support ukraine, if we let the isolationists win, it will be something your father knew, the dangers of munich ii. it was munich in 1938 when we allowed hitler to take part of

czechoslovakia. if we back away from supporting ukraine, it will be a munich ii, signaling not just to putin, but to other adversaries, for example, the chinese over taiwan, that they have a free hand. so this is really a very big picture. it is a transatlantic issue, but it is a broader issue of the transatlantic relationship holding and trying to create the sort of world order which gave us peace for 70 years after world war ii, and which is really threatened now. that's, again, one of the reasons i wrote my book. >> the new book is entitled "the art of diplomacy: how american negotiators reached historic agreements that changed the world" from the former u.s. ambassador to the european union. thank you so much for coming on the show, and thank you for

sharing your book with us. >> mika, thank you for having me. >> take care. see you soon. turning back to politics and the decision to not support donald trump for president, that has left some americans feeling alienated by their churches. "new york times" continue columnist david french has a new piece out entitled "the day my old church canceled me was a very sad day" and in it he writes this, this week the leaders of the presbyterian church in america will gather in richmond, virginia, for their annual general assembly. it is a small, thee -- denomination that was my family's church for more than 15 years. it just canceled me. i am now deemed too divisive to speak to a gathering of christians who share my faith.

two things happened that changed our lives, and in hindsight they're related. first, in 2010 we adopted a 2-year-old girl from ethiopia. second, in 2015, donald trump announced his presidential campaign. i was a senior writer for national review at the time, and when i wrote pieces critical of trump, members of the alt-right pounced and they attacked us through our daughter. we turned to our church for support and comfort. our pastors and close friends came to our aid, but support was hardly universal. the church as a whole did not respond the way it did when i deployed. instead, we began encountering racism and hatred up close, from people in our church and in our church school. and david french joins us now, along with the president of the

national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. david, your church, what are the values it's based on? can we refresh our memory? >> yeah, you know, i tell you what, i've never seen anything like it. i've seen political divisions in church where there are republicans and democrats, and i had spent much of my life worshipping alongside democrats. when i came out against donald trump all the way back in 2015, i knew there would be some disagreement. i did not expect anything like we encountered. our pastors, close friends, they were not tolerating any of that racism or political intolerance. but it became part of the constant drumbeat of our lives. you could not any longer go to church and assume you weren't going to be confronted by someone angry. and then my daughter encountering and my kids

encountering this incredible up close and personal racism at the school attached to our church, it just became incredibly difficult to sustain living in that environment. again, there were many people who were great, but this combination of the devotion to trump, combined with the unearthing of a lot of the racism that was already in the denomination, but had been given new life in this moment, made it just unsustainable to stay. and then, you know, we saw the denomination invite me back to speak, invite me back to speak to share how we responded to some of these really, really polarized moments, and then the far right attacked, the far right attacked, and within days i was canceled. >> i'm just taking a moment to take that in, because it's so deeply, deeply depressing. and reverend al sharpton, i

think this is a perfect conversation for you and david. maybe you're on very different sides of the political spectrum on some issues, but here i think we all can agree that the church is kind of the sacred place to put aside all differences and to celebrate humanity. >> i think the church must do that. and i think the church is also a place where we can have grown folks debate on the issues we disagree with in the right setting, certainly not in worship service where we should all come together, but in certain settings. and though david and i may disagree politically, when i read his article, it made me also think about the history where you have churches that supported segregation, supported slavery, but then you had churches that were on the front lines of the civil rights

movement. and even in the black church, i've had a fight with ministers i've known since i was a boy preaching when i came out for lgbtq rights. so it goes on both sides. david, the question that i had when i read your article, do you think it's that there are some that have joined this cult-like following around donald trump that religion gets mixed up with what is cult and that they really don't see the difference, they brought into the cult the feeling that they are righteous in doing what is god's will, when it's, in fact, a cult that has little to do with biblical grounding for morality. >> there's two things happening at once. on the one hand, you have a bunch of people in the church who literally believe that god chose trump for this moment to save america. they will say he's god's very unlikely vessel for saving america. so if you're opposing trump,

euro posing the other one. they exaggerate all of the darkness of the other side. so what they then say is, look, trump is the chosen one, and then the other side, the democrats are just pure evil. so you even have -- you even have in many churches a bunch of people who will say, you just cannot be christian and democratic. you can't be christian and a democrat at the same time, it's not possible. and so that exerts an incredibly powerful pressure on people in the church, because there's donald trump, the chosen one, against this other side that's allegedly so bad you can't even be christian and support it. so you begin to see the social pressure that is put on people to conform. and why, when somebody says, no, i don't agree that a three-time married adultrous guy who was just convicted is god's chosen

one to save america. when you don't agree with that, you're seen as an enemy of god. you're seen as an enemy of the united states at the same time. and that social pressure is just extraordinary. >> you know, i just -- for whatever it's worth, when you look at the evidence that was put out for donald trump's criminal hush money trial, the evidence is very clear, a jury of his peers, 12 jurors, alternates, convicted him of the felony counts, fraudulent business records. the witness who testified, made it very clear that she was there at the time that the alleged event happened. all of those things are pretty much backed up by evidence. and i think the problem, when you look at christianity and you look at what people look for when they go to church, as

churchgoing faithful, is not what did he do, what did she do. it's, are you remorseful, do you ask for god's forgiveness? the thing about donald trump, david french, is that he has no remorse, he does not need forgiveness. he probably will go to his sentencing, and when he's asked to speak, he will not show remorse. he doesn't have any. that's what's missing from this human being in every facet of his life. it's not that anyone else is better than him. it's that he does not know how to show remorse and ask for forgiveness. it's beyond me. i've never met anybody like this. >> what's incredibly sad, all of that that you said, mika, is absolutely true. but what's even sadder is that trump, who has this giant christian base, this giant

segment of the american churches backing him, and he has no power unless they back him, what's particularly sad is you're talking about this whole concept of repentance. it's absolutely fundamental to the christian faith. but they still think he's the chosen one. let's go through the recent list from the last year, he's been found responsible for sexual abuse, for defaming a victim of sexual abuse, found responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars worth of fraud, he's been convicted of a crime that, even though i think there's some weaknesses in the legal side of the case, the factual side, the facts, it's overwhelming that he did what he was accused of doing. and he's unrepentant about all of it. if anything, the evangelical church is more a pillar of his power now than it was even a few years ago. he won the republican primary on

the strength of overwhelming evangelical support. and this is something, again, the social pressure is huge. he's god's chosen one. it's relentless, this sort of argument, and if you dissent, yeah, there will be people in the church who still love you and support you and respect you, but there will be people who come after you. >> the new piece online now, for "the new york times," columnist david french. thank you very much for sharing that with us and thanks for coming on this morning. >> thank you. >> we appreciate it. coming up next, ai may be coming to your iphone. it already has, by the way, as apple appears set to be the latest heavyweight to join the artificial intelligence race. we'll have the latest ahead of the tech giant's event later today. plus, caitlin clark won't be traveling to the summer olympic games in paris.

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powering possibilities. pat sajak endured decades of terrible guesses. >> i'll solve. another feather in your lap. [ laughter ] >> no. >> bridal and gold shower. >> sorry. >> i'll solve the puzzle. >> go ahead. >> i have the wine by johnny cash. >> that is not correct. i'm sorry. >> i would like to solve the puzzle. boozing my shore excursion. >> no. >> i would like to solve, pat.

>> what did you got? >> super good smoothie. >> no, so sorry, it's not credit. >> right in the butt. [ laughter ] >> no. >> south potato? >> the pointed desert. the printed desert. >> it's your turn. >> the pointed desert. >> no. >> i still have time. i would like to solve. the pointed desert. >> it's not the pointed desert, no matter how many times you say it. >> a group of pill-pushers? [ laughter ] >> this is "wheel of fortune," joe. >> that is so funny. last week, bidding farewell to pat sajak, who signed off on friday after 41 years hosting "wheel of fortune." wow, those were the worst guesses ever. turning to business news,

apple's worldwide developer's conference kicks off today in california where the tech giant is expected to announce new products, along with a highly anticipated plan to enter the ai race. let's bring in co-anchor of squawk box. what can we expect out of their ai announcement? a lot of the apps that you use on your apple devices use ai. >> well, this is a big event for apple, because the truth is they have been far behind, thus far at least, when it comes to ai. what we're going to try to learn today is a little more about what the ai strategy looks like going forward, but also whether they ultimately actually partner with openai, which, of course, has already partnered with microsoft, or end up partnering with google as well. one of the big issues for apple is they've really put a focus on privacy over everything else, and as a result, they like to do things what's called on device, on chip, where effectively when

you're asking it something, that it's not sending that request off the device into the cloud. they're doing it on the device. that's harder to do in the ai world. so how they manage that and explain that today, i think, is going to be on a lot of people's minds. and then, of course, how deep effectively the ai works. can you just talk to your phone and it's going to go inside different apps and do things without you ever opening the app? and that could be a real change in terms of how we use phones in the future. >> caitlin clark didn't make the team. what does it mean on the business side? >> well, can i just say i think it's crazy, personally. if you're the wnba, you're saying to yourself, this is a real problem. you could argue that the olympics is a showcase for the usa team, it's a showcase for basketball, for women's basketball, and whether you think she would have been in the

top five or maybe just even in the top 12, she is selling tickets. even just over the weekend they were supposed to be in the stadium with a couple thousand people. they ended up expanding to a stadium with up to 20,000 people and the tickets sold like hotcakes. so i think this was a lost moment in some ways, however, of course, there's lots of debate about why they ultimately made that decision. but if you are the commissioner of the wnba today, i can't imagine that you're particularly happy about things. >> cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much. and coming up, actor jude law is our guest. his new film is called "fire brand" and we'll get a preview. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." (bell ringing) limu, someone needs to customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. let's fly! (inaudible sounds)

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welcome back to "morning joe." our next guest argues that it is economic status that's dividing our country and directly

influencing race relations today. the new book is titled "white poverty: how exposing myths about race and class can reconstruct american democracy" it talks about how there's an economic structure that only benefits the top. joining us, the book's coauthor, reverend dr. william j. barber, working to end the division and organizing a movement of america's working class to make their needs heard and force washington to act. reverend, thank you so much for being here. i know this is your life's work. tell us more about the book because i think the title and premise will take some by surprise. >> it probably will. the first time that i went on the poverty tour back in early 2000, the state legislature said there aren't that many poor people. since that time we've been studying and asking for an analysis. if you look at the government's

poverty measure, it would often say it's just about 30 some million poor people. most of the time the picture you would see was a black woman on welfare. that picture demeans black people and dismiss of white peo. the fact of the matter is in raw numbers, the majority of poor low wage people are white people and white women. so in the book i say that this false portrayal is a lie, more than that it's a damn lie, and it actually creates division, when one of the unifying factors is 135 million poor and low wage people in this country today. over 40% of our population, and in voting, poor people now represent 30% of the electorate, and the so-called battleground states they represent over 40% of the electorate. this book i take an opportunity at lifting up white people who are in various places, showing the connections between white and black, and how we live in

these myths. pale skin is a shared interest, only black people want change, poverty is a black issue, and we can't overcome divisions. the fact of the matter is, we can, we must, and we have to in this culture. >> reverend, is it not a political strategy that really was playing blacks against whites to put the black face out there and make us synonymous with poverty, ignoring whites, and then it was us against them. you grew up in a movement like i did, you grew up in the acp and i grew up with, among others, reverend jessie jackson that always tried to say that, we have more in common than apart. how do we break this cycle to make people understand that we are each other's answer or solution? they're playing both of us for those that want to make billions of dollars and get tax cuts. >> martin king said in '65 at

the end of the montgomery march when he spoke on the steps of the alabama statehouse, the fear of the racist oligarchy was for the black and white people to come together to form a voting bloc that could shift the architecture. we've got to tell the right story. people say poor people vote against their own interest. first of all, the numbers show us the majority of poor people do not vote regressive. they tend to vote progressive. we've got to understand there's a large swath, the biggest swing voters in this country are poor white and black folk. over 30 million who are infrequent voters. and the number one reason they don't vote is they say nobody talks to them, they don't hear themselves in the ads, they don't hear themselves in the debates. we had 15 presidential debates. nobody talks to them or listens to them. what they're saying is we're

coming together, and on june 29th there's going to be a mass poor people, low wage march on washington in an effort to reach 15 million poor and low wage people. what i'm saying in this book is let's deal with all of america's poor and stop treating this as it is an anomaly, that it is a crisis. you've got 40% of this country poor and low wealth. this is a crisis that we need to look at totally, and not one side or the other. >> the new book is titled "white poverty: how exposing myths about race and class can reconstruct american democracy raes" and it goes on sale tomorrow. this is such an important and interesting subject, one we'll be following very closely. >> absolutely. and up next on "morning joe," a new film is following king henry's marriage to parra, who leads england while her husband fights in france. but after henry returns from the war, she begins to worry for her

life due to the actions she took while he was gone. the film's stars, including jude law, join us next on "morning joe." ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well ♪ ♪ jardiance! ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance ♪ ♪ at each day's start! ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to see ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c! ♪ jardiance works twenty-four seven in your body to flush out some sugar. and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. serious side effects may include ketoacidosis

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“the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. there once was a queen by the name of katherine parr. she was the sixth wife of the vengeful king henry viii. >> he will kill me like he did my mother. >> he would never do that to you. do you hear me? >> the five wives who came before her all met untimely ends. but katherine's fate was to change the kingdom forever. [ laughter ]. >> we must rise up and take what is ours!

>> we found ann preaching to a large group. >> it is not for those above us to tell us what to believe. >> the way she spoke, it excited me. >> katherine, i pray no one saw you there that day. >> i prayed that i was chosen by god to get the king to change his will. >> you have to go. if they find you here -- >> we'd have to have their head cut off. >> i'm sure he'd come up with something much more creative. >> wow. that was a look at a new film entitled "firebrand" set in 16th century tudor england. the fwil fathers katherine parr who was a ruler famous for discarding even beheading his previous wives. katherine risks her life to operate politically behind the scenes and undermine her husband in an attempt to create a more just world. joining us now, the co-stars of

"firebrand," academy award, golden globe and tony nominated actor jude law and academy award-winning actress alicia vikander as well as the film's director, kareem ainouz. karim, what drew you to this story, to make you want to bring it to life so vividly? >> i think it was that it was an incredible story about a woman that had never been told. there are so many movies about henry viii and so many movies about the wives that he killed, had perished under his rule, i thought it was an important story to tell. i jumped right into it. >> alicia, what did you learn about this queen, about katherine parr? what was the part of her soul that you discovered that drove her to live with such bravery in such difficult times?

>> i think one of the things that i had no idea about actually when i first picked up the script -- i, myself, realized that i knew maybe the least about this woman that actually did survive out of the wives. one thing that is remarkable, she was actually the first ever published woman in britain. that was something that she did during her time. obviously she even wrote certain texts that wouldn't have been maybe approved by her husband. that to me only proved the kind of impact she not only had on him, but also on the people and the people who wrote her written word. >> jude law, you seem crazy in this film just from the trailer that we saw. i mean whoa. but, as we know, all humans are

multidimensional. i'm curious in your preparation, in your studies of king henry viii, what were some of his more positive qualities? what did you learn about this man? >> karim set a very fair playing field i think, because he was interested in the people at the heart of these characters, not the historical figures that they are remembered as. so for me with henry it was important to look back and understand why he behaved the way he did, but to answer your question more specifically, what did i learn about him that was positive, he was responsible for bringing in all sorts of influences of music into england. his court became much more artistic. and there was a time -- this was

important to me. there was a time when he was sort of a champion of the arts, and he was himself a dancer and a sportsman, hugely charismatic. i had to sort of sit on that at the end of his life, which is the chapter we tell, in a way to really understand how embittered and angry he is, in a way that all of that came to this festering toad of a man we find. in fairness, he started out as a glorious prince, king. >> pretty impressive spin job there, jude. >> positive spin job on henry viii. i did my best. >> tell us more about why this story might resonate for people watching today? >> it's about tear knee and power and trying to find truth

amidst that and questioning those in power who seem to have a hold over you through fear and championing that throughoutsmarting them and outthinking them. there's another aspect which is about a marriage, a marriage which is one unfortunately of abuse and manipulation and, again, i think what karim did was really remind us that at his heart this is a film about a marriage between a man and a woman rather than a king and a queen. when you look at it like that, you look at them as humans rather than these sort of figure heads. >> alicia, i'm just watching the trailer as we're talking now. this portrays katherine at a time in henry's life where he's gross, he smells back, his leg is rotting. he's not perhaps the kind of macho alpha male that he used to be. how did you conger up the

relationship between the two beyond -- i assume katherine was given her predecessor's unfortunately timely demise, she might have been a little scared for her life. you see these scenes of physical intimacy, some sort of physical intimacy between them. how did you balance that? >> i think this film is about a survivor, and i think she obviously stepped into this job being this wife, knowing what the previous wives, where they had ended up. i think she has her kind of task very clear ahead of her. i think she knew she would have to get close to this man, that she needed him to trust her more than anything. >> wow. karim, just a few seconds left. but it seems like this is very much about the strength of a woman. final thoughts on what you hope viewers will take away from

"firebrand." >> i think what would be great is if they kind of see "firebrand" as relevant today. i think the port raid of henry is the portrait of men we see in the news too often. katherine is an amazing example of a woman fighting these horrible men from within. very relevant story particularly this year for many different reasons. that's what i hope comes across when one watches the films. it's not something just about the past, but also very much about today. >> "firebrand" makes its u.s. premier at the tribeca film festival tomorrow and opens in theaters nationwide this friday. co-stars jude law, alicia vikander, director karim ainouz. thank you so much for coming on and sharing it with us. congratulations on incredible work. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. right now