hi there, everyone. happy monday. it's 4:00 in new york. game changer? it's a question today. more specifically, what if, what if the 2024 presidential campaign cycle isn't actually going to be fought on the ground that we today right now think it

is? what if the question isn't are we really going to do this, are we going to maybe elect a convicted felon running explicitly on a platform that ends the american experiment in democracy but on a more basic level should we be asking a different question like is he all right? watch as the presumptive republican presidential nominee celebrates a deadly domestic terrorist attack he helped incite on the united states capitol, as he openly shows contempt for and toward his own supporters standing in front of him, as he rambles on and on and on and on about sharks of all things in rants so bizarre that unhinged doesn't come close to capturing it. >> he just came up. are the teleprompters not working? said not even a little bit! great job. and then i don't pay the company that does it, right? and then i end up with a story, trump doesn't pay.

i don't pay contractors that do a [ bleep ] job. and that's a [ bleep ] job. that's a [ bleep ] job. >> this is the worst border in the history of the world. there's never been -- no third world country has a border like that and no third -- i'll tell you what. >> and i hope the milatar -- i hope the military revolts at the voting booth -- >> i went to a boat company in south carolina. the boat -- i said how is it? he said it's a problem, sir, they want us to make all electric boats. so i said let me ask you a question. and he said nobody ever asked this question. and it must be because of m.i.t., my relationship to m.i.t. very smart. he goes -- i say what would happen if the boat sank from its weight? and you're in the boat and you have this tremendously powerful battery and the battery's now underwater and there's a shark that's approximately ten yards over there. by the way, a lot of shark attacks lately. did you notice that? i watched some guys justifying

it today, well, they weren't really that angry, they bit off the young lady's leg because of the fact that they were -- they were not hungry but they misunderstood what -- who she was. these people are cra -- he said there's no problem with sharks, they just didn't really understand a young woman swimming. really got decimated. and other people too. a lot of shark attacks. so i said there's a shark ten yards away from the boat, ten yards. do i get electrocuted? >> do you feel the breeze? because i don't want anybody going on me. we need every voter. i don't care about you. i just want your vote. i don't care. >> those j-6 warriors, they were warriors but they were really more than anything else, they're victims of what happened. >> two things to deal with before we go any further. one, fox news didn't air that speech. what do they know? i don't know. and two, we're not going to bleep him this year. shitty is the word that he said. called his teleprompter shitty. called the contractors shitty.

this is what he sounds like today, though. that was him unfiltered in his own words in front of his supporters as he seeks the white house for a third time. he is of course a convicted felon. his earth two worldview completely devoid of facts, untethered to reality. he offers no vision at all, to say nothing of a positive vision to the people who support him. now, whenever trump talks, between the ramblings, or rantings about sharks or electric vehicles, he seemed to be talking about electric boats there, if you could track it, or windmills, which he still talks about a lot, toilet flushing, the endless stream of lies about the border, of course he's the person who killed the bipartisan border deal or the rule of law or the system of justice. it's not just lies and disinformation. they're lies that sit at the fulcrum of dangerous violent extremism and a dangerous escalation that people will act on the rhetoric and the things he says.

trump calling his most violent supporters, the people who he summoned to washington who stormed the united states capitol, quote, warriors, amounts to what new york magazine today calls a -- they write this, quote, portraying the insurrectionists as innocent victims is an obvious lie. portraying them as warriors is more honest. but the candor reveals a confidence that is quite chilling. trump has inspired the development of a paramilitary wing to his movement. he has goaded their aggressive impulses and rewarded their loyalty. and as trump made clear yesterday, if anything was clear at all, his entire campaign, his entire movement is in service of just one thing. trump. biden campaign sought to turn trump's own words against him in what is likely one of the shortest ads of all time. it was released a few hours ago. watch. >> because i don't want anybody going on me. we need every voter. i don't care about you. i just want your vote. i don't care. >> i'm joe biden.

and i approve this message. >> i think that may be the second mask off moment of the speech. it's a campaign speech that revealed a donald trump more dangerous, more erratic than ever before as he sits today for a virtual meeting with a court-appointed probation officer. it's also where we start today. former senator, co-host of msnbc's how to win 2024 podcast claire mccaskill is with us. also joining us senior adviser to the lincoln project and altogetheror of "the conspiracy to end america: five ways my old party is driving our democracy to autocracy," i think i called it the first must read of the cycle, it's fantastic, and with me at the table for the hour nbc correspondent vaughn hillyard. he was there yesterday to witness history. vaughn hillyard, this opening of our show and the questions i asked was inspired by your much shorter report on "nightly news" that i saw that was unbelievable and included this reporting that you did on trump's supporters there. let me play that as well and

i'll turn it over to you. >> would you want him to seek retribution against those who have brought these charges against him? >> oh, of course. they should go to jail. if you're going to make false -- if i made false accusations i'd be thrown in jail in two seconds. >> he's not going to get angry. he's got too much to fix. he's not a vengeful person. >> he's running as a vengeful person. and you've done an extraordinary body of reporting. it's shaped most of my thinking about where trump is and isn't at this moment. but just take me inside what happened yesterday. >> they believe, number one, his supporters, these most loyal supporters that are willing to stand out in triple degree digits for multiple hours under the las vegas sun for a noon rally that donald trump is seeking justice, their version of justice. right? you heard the man call for retribution saying of course. we talked for quite a long time. and he said that it started with barack obama. barack obama should be jailed. hillary and bill clinton should be jailed. nancy pelosi should be jailed.

alvin bragg should be jailed. the list is long. and they -- >> what did president obama do? >> he was the beginning of this. he began to spy on donald trump's 2016 campaign. this is the part of the conspiracy theory that has been created and is & has only cemented itself in the minds of people over the course of years to build up to this moment that they believe that these individuals should be jailed. in donald trump is looking out and speaking knowingly that people are willing to stand there, thousands of them, in triple-digit degree heat for the very reason that they want him back in the white house. and i think that there's one other gentleman that i talked to where i asked him about, you know, retribution and he told me in response, he said it was election night 2020 when he first realized that the election was stolen and he told me that i knew something, i was being lied to, i didn't realize my whole life i'd been lied to and that the news media's all telling us lies and we've all just been captured. we're programmed. we believe whatever. we've been programmed to believe this our whole lives. they believe truly, a great number of people, that they have been captured by the news media,

by the democrats, by the right and donald trump is the justice warrior and that is why they're wig to stand out in triple degree heat and listen to a speech for an hour from donald j. trump. >> let's deal with the speech. >> the speech itself. the number one thing for me was when he mentioned warriors. it caught my ear because donald trump has heralded this message to his supporters, that you know, it was instigated by fbi informants, which of course is not truth, and that these were peaceful protesters, he's repeatedly said that, to cast aside the violent images that we all watched unfold on january 6th. but when he referred for the first time there yesterday to the warriors, he's called them patriots in the past, the january 6 defendants who were jailed, many of them pleading guilty, hundreds of them pleading guilty for assaulting police officers and obstructing an official proceeding. and he called them warriors. that's antithetical to he peaceful protest. a warrior, the definition of warrior is someone who is engaged in warfare or conflict. so by calling them warriors, again, we hit at the word

justice in donald trump's version of justice. and his supporters, when he calls them warriors, you're giving them a certain level of valor for the actions that were committed that day, and i can tell you there was one january 6th defendant who was released from prison a couple months ago who said hi to us who was in the crowd there. this is a fight for the country that donald trump by giving them that distinction five months out for me, you know, i don't know what ultimately all this leads to here. but -- >> yeah. go ahead. >> no, but warriors is another step outside that even made me perk up. >> the thing that makes me burst with exasperation, which is all i can muster for trump these days in that state, is -- well, deal with his state. he couldn't seem to get the word military out. he was ranting and raving about the prompter and seemed to digress more than he was on a script. >> donald trump is -- you know, he acknowledged the teleprompter wasn't working. that is what happens when it's 100 degrees. our phones were dying out there actively. that does happen.

technology doesn't work. donald trump, though, has been an unscripted self and unvarnished self and that is what this campaign was built to allow here in the year 2024. that is why people come to listen to him, because he is unvarnished. he is not writing the script. more so than ever, even more than eight years ago, more than four years ago i think this is donald trump in his truest form and perhaps with age, i don't know what donald trump's mental state is but i can tell you listening for a speech that goes on for more than an hour, donald trump is speaking whatever is on his mind and there have been no repercussions or consequences. you could say a guilty verdict is a consequence and a potential sentence is a consequence. but politically if for somebody who may or may not believe that he actually won the 2020 election, he doesn't believe that he has suffered the political consequences yet. and that is what is at stake and that is what has worked giving a speech continuing to travel the country to galvanize his supporters for. >> and let's skip past warriors because it was the most newsworthy thing that he said. it's an escalation in his celebration of the insurrectionists. but it comes two days after the

anniversary of d-day when he's now fighting like a tarantula in a bowl against a known known. we know that he believes that the men and women who died serving this country and those who were wounded doing so are, quote, losers and suckers. it's on the record from general john kelly, who lost his son fighting on behalf of the country in the war in afghanistan. just talk about the incredible i guess audacity is the only word i can think of to describe criminals as warriors and heroes as losers. >> two parts to that. there was one young woman, a latina who drove in with her boyfriend from california, hours for the rally. and i was talking with her. and she told me that she wants all u.s. aid to israel and to ukraine to be cut off. that the united states should be focused on taking care of our communities here within. and that's a compelling message that donald trump is able to effectuate here with millions of americans. number two, the biden campaign also put out an ad here in the

last days that showed several other world leaders suggesting that they're laughing at donald trump as a leader on the world stage. the reality is that's who a lot of people want. a lot of people want, you know, macron and trudeau, they want -- trudeau, they showed a video -- >> i saw it. >> in the white house of trudeau and macron laughing and they were supposedly talking about donald trump. >> the entire u.n. -- >> the biden campaign was presenting that as like a bad thing. you don't want an american leader to be laughed at on the world stage among our allies. but the reality is there's a great many people -- >> in his base. >> voters in his base that do want somebody that is going to go and make things difficult and make even our allies uncomfortable. when he says we may cut off support for nato allies, russia can do whatever the hell they want, that is the type of fight they want out of a new american leader here in the year of 2024. this is a new regime, this is a new era. >> stuart, the problem is -- and you and i have looked at the

electorate and looked at polls for our entire careers. it's not a winning number of people. i believe it is a number of people in his base. i don't even think his entire base feels that way. but i mean, it's why unpopular foreign conflicts almost cost incumbents re-election every single time. and there's no example where the american people in a plurality or majority or a winning coalition ever want to be the butt of any joke on the world stage ever. and it's why democracy was such a big driver, sort of unexpectedly after the very public january 6th select committee hearings. i think the slow-moving scandal in my view is that fox news isn't broadcasting this anymore. that was not aired in its entirety. i actually heard from someone who was watching fox looking for it. it wasn't on. and they were wondering why. we rolled the tape. and i wonder what you think is going on with trump. >> well, look, this is as good

as donald trump gets. we need to keep that in mind. if he was elected president, you'd look back at this and say well, he's not as bad then -- now as he was then. there's no improvement with trump. and this is a very disturbed guy. i would say there's a lot of evidence, a lot of medical people have weighed in, that he's in some state of dementia. but in a way it doesn't matter because this is just someplace you wouldn't want to sit next to on a plane, who has no coherent chain of thought, he has no theory of government. as you say, he has no reason that he's running other than donald trump. this bundle of grievances. and you know, i think biden is going to win this thing easily. i think come middle of october people are going to look at this -- and i've said this before. i think trump is like a guy walking around with a paper bag full of water. it's probably not going to leak that much. when it goes it's going to be hell to pay to get it back. i think that's where he's headed. and fox can try to not show this and hide it.

but it's a long time to the election and a lot of people are going to start paying attention that aren't paying attention now. and i think it's going to be impossible to hide the difference. >> stuart, i want to bring claire in as well but i want to ask you one more question. i think the idea that we're still -- like this is year nine of covering the trump story for me, and we still -- vaughn is the best of the best. i put vaughn on the outside of this assessment. we still haven't figured it out, right? i mean, why are we -- why are we cutting out, you know, shitty? like he swears, he's crass, he's vulgar. and i take the point that his base loves it. that's fine. but if he thought his base would win the election, he wouldn't be doing rallies because he told them to their face, quote, i don't care about you, end quote. he's there to do events to garner coverage to put together a winning coalition like he did two times ago in '16. and he did that because fox news, cnn, and this network in a lot of instances covered him all the time. we learned our lesson, right?

there were brutal rebukes from our own viewers and from other watchdogs. but fox not covering trump's first speech after being convicted is a big story. why are we still sort of missing a beat in the trump story? >> yeah. look, fox is basically an arm of the trump campaign, arm of the republican party, which is the trump campaign. i find it difficult to believe that fox has any credibility after the dominion lawsuit when it was exposed they all knew trump was lying and they still supported him. but you know, if i was polling in this race i would ask a screening question. do you believe that joe biden is the legally elected president? and if you said no to that i would just throw you out of a poll. i know you think you stole the white house but what about that infrastructure act? what are you going to say to that person to get them to vote for joe biden?

nothing. and that was the majority overwhelmingly, 80% plus of his vote in the primary. that was sort of a cutting line. do you believe that he won the election fairly or not? and those who didn't voted for nikki haley. and those who did voted for trump. and it's just not that many people out there that believe that we don't live in a democracy and the president wasn't legally elected. >> yeah. it's so important. i have a million more questions for you about the questions we're asking, and they include the pollsters. i need to get claire in on this as well. first i have to sneak in a break. no one is going anywhere. still so much more to come. also ahead, today's the day that trump is being assessed by his probation officer doing just the normal thing that every convicted felon does, has to do before a sentence, is recommended and that is this meeting with his probation officer. the very latest on his presentencing obligations to the court. plus, justice samuel alito in his own words on a tape that we can hear saying there's, quote,

no compromise left for the country and he intends to fight until america returns to a, quote, place of godliness, end quote. we'll play it for you so you can hear it with your own ears. and later in the broadcast, also at that las vegas rally vaughn covered the ex-president praising the mob at the u.s. capitol as warriors, as we've been discussing. this as evidence continues to become public showing the ongoing attempts by republicans to rewrite the history, the story of how january 6th unfolded on that day. former speaker nancy pelosi will be our guest. that and much, much more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ♪ wait! t-mobile has home internet? ♪ what a feeling! ♪ ♪ to have t-mobile now! ♪

this is front row joe. he's at every one. this guy. wouldn't it be incredible? he's gone to 250. if he voted for biden. he's going to vote for biden. i don't think so. i think it would be suicide before biden. right? >> claire mccaskill, one of the most startling things about this speech is the open disdain that he has toward his supporters, who he -- you could say a lot of things about trump, but he can read a poll and he knows that the 2020 dead enders are not enough to send him back to the white house. >> yeah. the people who come to his rallies, and no one knows this better than vaughn, are a different level of trump support er than the vast majority of the people that may end up voting for trump. the people who come to the rallies are coming for one

reason. they want to watch him give the finger to the system, to american institutions, to everybody in power no matter where they are. they are coming to listen to him do exactly what he did at that rally. and that is absolutely say out loud that everything and everybody ought to go blank themselves. and that's kind of what he does. now, can you imagine an undecided voter listening to that speech, sitting them down in a room and saying want you to listen to the speech of joe biden at the cemetery, a sacred place honoring the fallen heroes of world war ii, versus donald trump at that rally? now, can you imagine anybody in that room that's undecided saying you know, trump's my guy, that's the guy i want? that's the guy i want in the oval office. of course they wouldn't.

and that's why i do believe that most americans, enough to get to 270 electoral votes, will not want to go with a guy who -- and the other irony about this is what is he planning on doing? he says screw the system and then he's going to get into office and the people around him have one most important goal of his first year in office, that is more tax cuts for big corporations and tax cuts for millionaires. and you think that audience sitting in that heat that day would want to hear about that? i don't think so. >> claire, the speech -- i went back and watched it so that viewers didn't have to. but frankly fox's viewers are welcome to come on over. they didn't air it either. he had disdain for coverage of the heat. he did not want the local media to cover the heat because as with sending his supporters to the capitol to face whatever consequences he was damn sure he was never going to face, he

wanted his props, his extras standing there in the heat but he didn't want it to be a story that it might have been too hot. i mean, just speak -- there's something sadistic about that, that he didn't want the discomfort or the risk to his supporters to be a story. >> yeah. i mean, this is a guy who we saw eight years ago was very comfortable saying horrible things about people, primarily women but also men. and he doesn't care. he just wants a big crowd to make him look good. couple of things are important to donald trump. crowd size is one of them. another one is how people around him look. there's no question that one of the problems that you have if you want to be in donald trump's cabinet or particularly his vice president is you've got to look a certain way. if you don't look -- it doesn't matter about anything else. you've got to be able to be quiet and give him the star

shine he wants and let him be the number one guy always, and then secondly you've got to, quote unquote, look like you're out of central casting. this is a guy who doesn't care about anything than how it reflects on him. and that he is somehow strong and powerful. that's the only thing. and that's the scariest thing, is most americans do think he's stronger than joe biden. which is such a joke. >> claire, as you're answering that question, i'm thinking of pagie haberman's live reporting while he was in court about a piece of black tape on his scalp. he's someone that all you have to do is -- he didn't go to a military ceremony in france because it was raining and he didn't want his hair to get wet. i mean, it's so paper thin. i wonder if you think the very obvious performance gap between trump as a candidate this year and trump as a candidate in 2016 will be an impediment not with

his base -- again, he could get up there and drool on himself and they're all in. and they probably believe what he said. i mean, i don't know. maybe some of them do. but in terms of assembling what he understands he needs to assemble to win again, do you think the performance question will be asked? do you think they'll even know about it? >> it's a good question. i'm not sure. i think the biden campaign, i think the ad they put out about trump's attitude towards people who go into the military and serve in the military and lose their lives in conflict in the military, i need to add that biden just ran a very powerful ad, and i believe those kinds of things using trump's own words that are shocking, that contrast between normal and integrity and character versus what trump represents, that's the contrast the biden campaign has to focus on 100% every day, day in and

out. the contrast. >> let me ask our control room if we could look for both of those ads. stuart stevens, let me come back to you on this topic of ads and polls. these were not my departments when we worked on campaigns together and i studiously stayed out of them and stayed in my lane in the press office, which is why we're all such great friends. but on this idea of ads and polls, i feel like the poll question is -- if joe biden is chicken, right? do you like chicken, yes or no? if you're at a function, right? or a banquet and it's chicken or mystery meat, everyone has chicken. and trump is like ten steps worse than the mystery meat. talk to me first about how the poll questions should be getting asked. >> well, look, i think you ought to be asking questions about values a lot because ultimately there's a question we used to ask a lot in polls, who do you think most represent your values? and i think that biden is going

to win that pretty convincingly. you know, donald trump has never been able to get over 47%. he won with 46.2 and he lost with 46.9%. joe biden got more votes than anybody else ever running for president of the united states. so i think when this contrast gets up there pollsters should be asked who would you rather see represent you? because if you go back to 2000, the one thing that worked for us in the bush campaign more than anything else, all the ads we made about taxes and everything, what blew them away was restoring honor and dignity to the white house. and i think that that message is still very powerful. and that was following bill clinton, who by all accounts was a very successful president who had some trouble. but nothing compared to donald trump, a convicted felon. so i just think, you know, you have to ask yourself is there any place in america that says i

would have hired that person for the job but he wasn't a convicted felon or we would have gotten a principal but he didn't have enough felony convictions. it's so counter. and i think this takes a lot to soak in. but ultimately, to use a phrase that joe biden likes, don't bet against america. and i think that's really what this comes down to. like we say in the lincoln project, trump or america. >> let me show you, vaughn, one of the ads that seemed to get under trump's skin, these questions about his disdain for the men and women who died or were injured serving the country. this one is about the flag. >> as the sun rises, we raise the flag, a symbol of all we hold dear. courage. opportunity. democracy. freedom. they're the values that built this country and still beat in our hearts. but they're under attack by an extreme movement that seeks to overturn elections, ban books, and eliminate a woman's right to choose. joe biden has made defending our basic freedoms the cause of his

presidency, and he's running for re-election to finish the job, to protect the freedom for women to make their own health care decisions, the freedom for our children to be safe from gun violence, the freedom to vote and have your vote counted. under joe biden the sun will not set on this flag. american democracy will not break. >> i will defend our democracy with every fiber of my being, and i'm asking every american to join me. >> so trump's campaign manager is named chris lasovita. he's the smartest most able person trump's ever employed. trump is at a more brittle performative point in his political arc than i've ever witnessed him as a television viewer. and his coalition is more radical and extreme. and all i could think of when i watched your nightly package last night and heard trump supporters in their own words was that's an ad lasovita has no response to because he can't rain hail down on trump's

supporters, he needs to grab ten more extremists on the way to the polls, but they repel -- never mind swing voters or independents. they repel the nikki haley voter. what's his plan? >> chris lasovita is someone who i think is an effective adviser to donald trump. he's part of a team that has allowed donald trump to campaign how he so desires. i did ask chris who was at that rally yesterday the very specific question about like retribution, right? you are a senior adviser to donald trump. do you urge him to stay away from that revenge retribution type of messaging? and he did not decline to answer that but only told me, look, our priorities here are to draw the contrasts, the weaknesses of joe biden versus the strengths of donald trump. >> did he think he did that in the shark speech? >> i don't know what chris lasovita thought of the shark speech. but when we're talking about the flag there's another reality if i may. i was in arizona last week and then drove up to nevada. and i saw a number of upside down flags being hung outside of

people's homes. and this is a moment obviously stemming from the story of justice alito's having flown the flag upside down outside of his house in the days after the january 6th attack but then also after donald trump's conviction. and when we're talking about the messaging of the flag from the biden campaign versus those that are allied to donald trump, i don't think the flag has had such a prominent role in american election potentially as the one it's about to have now because there are those that are aligned with donald trump who view an upside down flag as the state of our democracy and those who have a different version of the direction that the american flag should fly consistently in america. >> say more. so you just saw, you know, like with the way we used to track bumper stickers and farms that had burned in a candidate's name you saw people on a property -- >> i went to visit a relative across the street from them in phoenix. upside down flag that i was told was put up after the conviction. was told by two other friends of mine in phoenix when i made mention of that, they said our neighbors also have upside down

flags. we were in nevada up in the parking lot of the trump rally there was an upside down flag and some other folks on our teams in other parts of the country say they're seeing the same thing. so i think it's become a symbol here at this moment in america here in the summer of 2024. >> wow. that's amazing. no one's going anywhere. next for us, today is a big day. donald trump with his lawyer sitting next to him is having his meeting that all convicted felons have with a probation officer. what we know about that meeting and what it can tell us about the possible sentencing decisions for the ex-president. that story's next. onfos r the et that story's next. ♪ you need t-mobile... ♪ ♪ home internet with 5g. ♪ wait! t-mobile has home internet? ♪ what a feeling! ♪ ♪ to have t-mobile now! ♪ (vo) sail through the heart of historic cities and unforgettable scenery with viking.what a feeling! ♪ unpack once and get closer to iconic landmarks, local life and cultural treasures.

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well, chris, there is no convicted felon like trump. he's one of a kind. so all i can speak to is how it goes for the average joe. and what happens is that they are asked to come into the probation office, which in this case is at 102nd street in manhattan, and sit in a small city office, meet with a civil service probation officer and discuss everything from the crime that they are convicted of, any criminal history they may have, their family situation, their obligations, where they're living, how they're supporting themselves, their income. >> so unlike any other convicted felon no new york city, donald trump will not have to go into 100 center street and he will have his lawyer, todd blanche,

sitting next to him for his presentencing meeting with a probation officer happening today. trump will reportedly call in for the interview from the comfort of his own home at mar-a-lago, the site of where he's cuesed of mishandling classified documents. but like any other convicted felon in new york city trump will have to answer truthfully and with his own fate in the balance with up to four years in prison at stake. joining our conversation former sdny criminal division deputy chief msnbc legal analyst kristy greenberg. vaughn, claire and stuart stevens all back with us. take me inside how this is likely to go on the official side. will any of the sails be trimmed in terms of the questions asked and the kind of answers pursued? >> so i think they'll cover the normal topics that they would cover, your background, your medical history, mental health, financials, which should be an interesting part of the report. and then they'll ask questions about the offense conduct. it will be interesting to see

whether he really engages and how much he speaks to that if at all because he's not -- obviously he's disputing the facts that came out at trial and is claiming he's innocent. but it does make sense to me, i'm not surprised at all that todd blanche is participating in this. you saw what happens when there's no teleprompter. you know, he will go off the rails. and so wanting to make sure his client doesn't get himself into any deeper legal jeopardy, he's there to make sure he stays on message, which their attempt in this interview is to really try and paint the most, you know, glowing picture you can of the former president and why this probation officer should not recommend a sentence of jail. so that is their objective here. whether they will be successful remains to be seen. >> when you're convicted of a crime, how does it work if you're not remorseful for committing the crime and sorry to the victims of the crime? >> yeah, so i mean most defendants that go to trial and are maintaining they're innocent

are unlikely to show remorse. and that doesn't necessarily count against you. but you certainly can get credit if you plead guilty and do accept responsibility. but i don't expect the judge will say this is somebody who exercised his right to a trial and is still maintaining his innocence and i'm going to hold that against him. but he has plenty of other things to hold against him. right? ten gag order violations. gag order violations since the verdict. you have gag order violations from the last trial where he was attacking the law clerk. so one of the things the probation officer has to look at is is this somebody who's amenable to supervision, is this somebody who will follow the rules? he's plainly not. and so that is one of the many reasons i think this probation officer should be recommending a jail sentence. >> what does a probation officer and then the judge do about someone whose position on the prosecutor is that alvin bragg should go to jail? >> right. how do you say that this is somebody who's going to have respect for the law? one of the things you're trying to do with any sentence is promote respect for the law. he has none.

as claire mccaskill has said brilliantly just a few seconds ago, he's somebody who's telling -- who says screw you to all the institutions including the rule of law. so i don't see how this is somebody you can say is going to follow a probase officer's words. he doesn't follow the court orders. he thumbed his nose at the system in every which way. so again, one more reason why there should be a jail sentence here. >> what about the idea that they're likely to argue that his service to the country is his -- his crime was committed in the oval? >> yeah. that's an aggravating -- they're going to argue it's a mitigating factor, right? look at his service to this country. which is laughable considering he's talking about i don't care about my own voters at a rally. the only person whose interests donald trump cares about are his own. he doesn't care about anybody else. but i think that it is an aggravating factor that he is signing the checks, those falsified business records from the oval office. that makes it a more serious

offense, not less of one. and i think the fact that they're going to argue look, he's potentially the future president of the united states, and so really you would destabilize this country if you put him in jail. that is an argument you've heard a lot of people making. but it is far more stabilizing if the american presidency becomes a get out of jail free card and you can have someone who does not accept responsibility and who is thumbing their nose at our democratic institutions just say okay, well, i'm president so i don't get jail time. that cannot be how it works. >> that is how it has worked for trump so far. i mean, that everyone that investigated him had their -- they didn't just get the disrespect that he's shown bragg and merchan, you know, andrew mccabe, pete strzok, what they did and we covered them all for their individual narratives but what they did in trump's view was they dared investigate his 2016 campaign's ties to russia. he is never, ever able to acknowledge a mistake.

>> i don't think you ever hear the words "i'm sorry" or "regret." and i don't think that donald trump even -- when we talk about the january 6th select committee, you also have not only the chance to say that i made a mistake or -- he just doesn't even ignore it. just last week he called for the indictment of each of the members of congress who were on the january 6th select committee. >> liz cheney, adam kinzinger. >> right. the committee ended its work a year and a half ago and yet it's still at the forefront of his mind for reasons that i don't know at any given moment why it is at the forefront of his mind. but donald trump has called for the jailing of alvin bragg, citizen's arrest of judge engoron, letitia james, new york's attorney general. he's called for the arrest of most of his not political enemies, perceived political enemies and those that have investigated him or dared to question whether he committed unlawful acts. >> it's amazing. no one's going anywhere. there's still so much more. more on the split screen we

witnessed, we lived through over the weekend between the current president, president joe biden, and the convicted felon donald trump. president joe biden very much getting under trump's thin skin. we'll tell you how and why later. later. uld be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. tell your healthcare provider about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, or if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis. if you have hepatitis b do not stop taking biktarvy

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so speaking of word salads, the disgraced ex-president is having a meltdown over a new ad from president joe biden that highlights trump's own words as reported and corroborated by multiple sources about the men

and women who gave their lives serving the country. take a look at that. ♪♪ >> he's a war hero because he was captured. i like people that weren't captured. ♪♪ >> he handed me his purple heart. >> i always wanted to get the purple heart. [ laughter ] this was much easier. >> trump posting on social media in response, quote, obviously i never said that dead soldiers are losers and suckers. who would say such a thing? adding at a rally over the weekend, quote, unless you're a psycho or a crazy person or a very stupid person, who would say that anyway?

crazy, psycho, stupid. for once, donald, we agree. kristy, claire, stuart and vaughn are all here. let me show you trump's own white house staffer who had the job of knocking back this story at the time when trump denied it, admitting on live tv that it was true all along. here's sarah matthews. >> when the "the atlantic" story dropped where it was claimed he said that fallen soldiers were suckers and losers. and at the time we asked him if this was true and he said that he did not make that statement and, you know, this was coming from anonymous sources. now we know that john kelly was one of those sources and has gone on record to say that he was witness to those comments from trump. and so that was something that i pushed back on. but at the time i was taking the former president at his word. >> stuart stevens, i guess you and i are old enough to remember when that would be a lights out, the campaign would be over and the republican party would be meeting frantically to find a new nominee. not so much anymore.

but i want to add to our understanding and the body of reporting that's been corroborated over and over and over again. he also believed that a wounded veteran who was at a ceremony, i believe honoring chairman mark milley, should be taken off the stage because, quote, nobody wants to see that. he's disgusted by wounded warriors, the true warriors, the true heroes. and that is on the record over and over and over again. >> you know, i think one of the things that fascinates me about this moment is that these are the last two candidates that we have who were born in the shadow of world war ii. they're both -- whoever wins will be the oldest president. and they'll be really our last connection to the greatest generation. and they're going to pass a torch. and which way are they going to pass it and what are the values they're going to pass with it? you know, my uncle was shot seven times in france and never fully recovered, ultimately died as a result of one of those wounds. and you know, those of us that grew up in a certain age were

surrounded by these people who were the greatest generation. i had a little league coach who had won the silver star at iwo jima, never talked about. and these were just the values we assumed were fundamental american values. and i think when the biden campaign does this sort of stuff, and i think this is absolutely first-rate work, they're putting the race up to where it needs to be. it doesn't have to be about gas prices or kitchen tables. this can be about something much, much bigger. and i think that the bigger the race is the better joe biden's going to do. >> claire? >> yeah. john kelly, i think people need to understand the confirmation that donald trump said this came from general john kelly. and i just want to take a second to remind people who john kelly is. john kelly enlisted during the vietnam war while he was in college. no bone spurs for john kelly.

he rose through the ranks of the marines to become a four-star general. he was a commander of the southern command. he went to work for donald trump as homeland security secretary. keep in mind that in 2010 his oldest son, robert, who was an infantry in the marines, stepped on a landmine in afghanistan in his third combat duty and was killed. i think john may have been the highest-ranking official in the military to lose a son or daughter in combat in afghanistan. now, this is the man who has told america that donald trump said these things. who are you going to believe? bone spurs or a general, a four-star general from the marines? and i just hope that john kelly does not let donald trump get away with saying this is not true. john kelly needs to speak up and

speak up for all the heroes that are currently fighting, that are signing up today to fight for our country, that are at arlington and in france in sacred cemeteries including his own son. and i just think it's very important that donald trump not get away with muddying the waters around what should be disqualifying discussions about the very best we have in america. >> to claire's very powerful point, this is john kelly's statement confirming the reporting about trump's belief of the men and women who serve and are injured or die in the military. john kelly, quote, what can i add that has not already been said? a person that thinks those who defend their country in uniform or are shot down or seriously wounded in combat or spend years being tortured as p.o.w.s are all suckers because, quote, there's nothing in it for them?

a person who did not want to be seen in the presence of military amputees because, quote, it doesn't look good for me. a person who demonstrated open contempt for a gold star family, for all gold star families, on tv during the 2016 campaign, and rants that our most precious heroes who gave their lives in america's defense are, quote, losers and wouldn't visit their graves in france. there is nothing more that can be said. god help us. so until he says it in his own words i'll try to read that every day on this program. vaughn hillyard, what is the trump campaign going to do about that inconvenient reality about trump's true views about the men and women who are true american heroes in the view of i think 98.6% of all americans see that that way? >> and we know the veterans have a major stake in the election and in battleground states like arizona and nevada but also florida. and i do know that donald trump largely ignored this story for a great many years until yesterday

during his campaign speech. clearly the biden campaign ad got to him and it triggered him and he spoke about it for several minutes, making those denials that you played. he then left the campaign and while aboard his plane back to mar-a-lago post bd it on social media. so i do know that it clearly was something that makes him frustrated knowing the american public is knowledgeable about the statements that john kelly says that he made. >> well, the problem, the problem is that he's frustrated and not deeply ashamed. we'll stay on it. claire mccaskill, stuart stevens, vaughn hillyard, thank you all for spending the hour with us. kristy's shift isn't over yet. she sticks around because up next for us there is more evidence, the kind you can't dispute or spin or argue with, of supreme court justice samuel alito's legacy-changing true views, true bias, true extremism. he's been caught on tape telling everybody exactly how he feels

about every american who identifies on the left side of the ideological spectrum. and his belief that the country needs to return to a place of, quote, godliness. that's next. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. ing more. that gritty feeling can't be brushed away. even a little blurry vision can distort things. and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves' could develop a different condition called thyroid eye disease, which should be treated by a different doctor. see an expert. find a t-e-d eye specialist at isitted.com

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i mean, if you think of them as right-wing moles having to sit there festering at the supreme court, waiting until they have a big enough majority to do what they were sent to do and then they finally have the great day when they can do it and they can let the unlimited dark money flow and they can take away abortion rights and they can shut down the voting rights act and do all these great things and instead of getting cheers for it they are criticized, they're thin skinned and they're criticized, but it's almost like the cicadas have come out after years of just sitting there in the dark.

now they're showing who they really were all along and there's a lot of resentment wrapped up in all of that. >> hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. another day, another reason to have profound and deep fear and doubt in justice samuel alito's ability to be fair and impartial on the united states supreme court. that was senator whitehouse's theory of the case. we now have a new instance where alito reveals himself. it has to do with new undercover audio recorded last week by a progressive activist named lauren windsor at the supreme court historical society's annual dinner, an event we told you about here before it happened. windsor is known to coax candid comments out of republican figures by misrepresenting herself as one of their allies. what you're about to hear is a portion of her recording. windsor playing the part of a religious conservative speaks to

justice samuel alito about our nationtion ideological tensions. listen. >> i don't know that we can negotiate with the left in the way that needs to happen for the polarization to end. i think that it's a matter of, like, winning. >> i think you're probably right. on one side or the other, one side or the other is going to win. i don't know. i mean, there can be a way of working -- a way of living together peacefully but it's difficult, you know, because there are differences on fundamental things that really can't be compromised. they really can't be compromised. so it's not like you can split the difference. >> spoiler alert. it's not like you can split the difference. alito in his own words about whether or not the right and the

left can ever, quote, live together or work together, quote, peacefully. this is the part in the program where we are obligated to tell you that as a network we reached out to justice alito as well as to press officers at the united states supreme court to see if they wanted to respond to justice alito in his own words on tape saying those things. you can't, quote, split the difference. we haven't received any comment yet. if we do while we're on the air we'll bring it to you right away. but again, another extraordinary development in the entire history of the united states supreme court, justice alito caught on tape is where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends, senior correspondent at vox author of the agenda, how a republican supreme court is reshaping america, ian millhiser is back. plus senior editor for slate and host of the amicus podcast, dahlia lithwick is back. with me at the table msnbc legal analyst kristy greenberg's here. dahlia, it gives me no pleasure

to say this, but if the country is educated -- i say this as someone who spent my career in republican politics. if the country is made aware of the extremism and radicalism of two of the members and families of the united states supreme court, two of nine members, it will be thanks to liberal activists like lauren windsor and investigative journalists like those at propublica. what an extraordinary new piece of informationing and revealing comments in his own words on tape from samuel alito. >> i think it's fair to say and i know you didn't mean it this way, but i will accept the criticism that you know, the supreme court dedicated press corps has a little bit been on screen save on this story for a very long time. we've known a lot, a lot, a lot of things were a little hinky and i think most of us just felt like it was our job to report the cases and not the conduct. so you know, thankfully what surged into the void was, as you

said, politico and propublica and the "new york times" and now lauren windsor who are saying the conduct is not just shocking and unconscionable and should be covered but -- and this is important. i think it's what senator whitehouse was getting at in the promo. it's intrinsically connected to the cases that we cover. it is intrinsically connected to the doctrine that they produce because these are justices who in their private lives day after day show that they're in the tank for one side. >> it was not intended as a criticism. more a celebration of i guess your analysis, though, is a little sharper than mine, dahlia. so we'll go with it. we'll adopt it around here. i'm just so grateful -- and listen, no one in this conversation has more culpability than me p i worked in the white house that appointed samuel alito. my theory, and it's why i was pressing senator whitehouse on this. my theory is there's a chip on

alito's shoulder the size of petite harriet meers because he was bush's second choice afterwards. but something else has happened. he's completely radicalized. he's not stupid. so that's not the right theory. he's an intelligent man who's so deep in a view that even in right-left politics traditionally it isn't represented on the main stage or the spectrum. i mean, just talk about his articulation of godliness. >> i mean, in some sense, look, godliness, the sort of comment to lauren windsor is a sort of reflection of much larger themes that are not surprises to us. you can't read the dobbs opinion and not know how he thinks about godliness. you can't read the text of the speech he gave in rome right after dobbs and not know how he thinks about godliness. and lest there were any remain ing doubt, the flag, the appeal to heaven flag that flew for months at his beach house suggests exactly how he feels

about godliness. props to lauren windsor for getting did in his own mouth, but none of this is a surprise. and i just want to note, we have two major abortion cases that are pending that will come down in the next three weeks in which at least one person has very, very strong feelings about godliness that will inflect on how that case gets decided. >> i mean, two abortion cases -- yeah, kristy. and immunity. and if this is the other half of how we are to interpret the things he said during oral arguments, we should all buckle up. >> we should absolutely buckle up. to me this wasn't so shocking because following that oral argument on presidential immunity he -- justice alito's comments in particular were striking because he talked about the fact that these prosecutors are going to come after the former president, who should be resting in his retirement, and instead you're going to have a bitter political opponent sending his prosecutor off destabilizing democracy.

i mean, it was wild. it was very clear where he was going. i think what we should absolutely do is buckle up for a very strong opinion here. but he was clearly forecasting that he is just in the tank for trump and he's going to write an opinion that gets to his desired result. when you hear those kinds of comments where he's talking about the lack of compromise and you don't need to compromise because one side has to win and there are fundamental differences and somebody's got to win, i mean, this is a far cry from what we heard back in confirmation hearings about judicial philosophy, textualism and originalism. and now this is what he really means. it's about winning because he has a larger view and that is godliness. and that is what is going to be, you know, reflected in his actual opinions. everything else was just window dressing for what he really thinks and believes. and i think that is incredibly troubling. >> and what is it we should be prepared for on immunity?

>> i mean, you wouldn't expect them to say absolute implunt because you'd think that would be crazy. but then again, this is also crazy. >> right. >> i've always thought that we will get a majority opinion and maybe, again, alito dissents because he is just that extreme, but some majority opinion that will have this kicked to judge chutkan and saying oh, well, there's some outer perimeter, there is some immunity for some acts, she has to go back and go through the facts. and again, that accomplishes what they actually want to accomplish, which is delay so that this doesn't happen before the election. >> ian, let me -- i didn't mean to put dahlia on the spot. i appreciate how candid she was. i did the same thing in the last hour on the trump story. so i'll try to do it in the same way. are we asking the wrong questions? and i'll take all of you -- are we asking the wrong questions? i mean, is he too extreme to be on the supreme court? is the senate judiciary committee, which is controlled by democrats, are they too convinced of their own lack of power and tools? i mean, what is happening where

we're going like this? i mean, nobody thinks this is good and nobody thinks there's anything that can be done. >> yeah. i think there has been an awakening amongst the american public to just how much of a problem the supreme court has become. i echo both of my colleagues, who said this isn't a surprise. you know, if you are shocked by the stuff that alito said on this tape, wait till you read his opinion on hodges, his dissent thankfully, where he said one of the reason wez can't extend equal marriage rights to gay couples is because if he did then someone might call a conservative christian a bigot. wait till you read his opinion in stormans v. weissman where he said if you live in a town where the only pharmacist is a conservative christian who doesn't like birth control i guess you don't get to get your birth control because that person's rights trump yours. so one thing that has been consistent in alito's jurisprudence, that line that he had in the tape about how one side is going to win or the

other side is going to win, is if there is the slightest inconvenience for his side, if someone might say a nasty word about his side, he has argued that that's a reason to take fundamental rights away from other people. and i guess the reason why we're seeing so much attention on this, because alito's been saying it in his opinions for so long, is after dobbs and after so many outrages from the supreme court the public is just really focused on the fact that oh, wait, these guys are a problem. >> let me show you more of alito. i take your point. and i think you're right that it's sort of a -- as a mass media we didn't focus on the things he was saying out loud and proudly until dobbs. but you're right. there's a very long and consistent trail. let me play some more of -- because what alito does is exactly what you're saying. he goes out and swings at the press all the time. he thinks we're the problem for reading his dissents.

he doesn't want them read and analyzed. he doesn't want the things he says to a person believed to be a conservative activist but who is actually a progressive activist to be digested and contemplated by us. he just wants his words to be celebrated by the people who share his worldview. here he is on tape in 2023 talking to the same person he believes to be a conservative but it's really lauren windsor. >> like this is like the last bastion of i think, like, public trust. and like how do we get back to that? >> i wish i knew. i don't know. it's easy to blame the media, but i do blame them because they do nothing but criticize us. and so they have really eroded trust in the court. i don't know. i really don't know. i mean, ordinary people, ordinary isn't the right word. american citizens in general need to work on this, to try to

heal this polarization because it's very dangerous. i do believe it's very dangerous. >> so ian, i don't want to lose this because this is so precious. it's easy to blame the media but i do blame them because they do nothing but criticize us. and so they have really eroded trust in the court. no, they haven't. you have, sam. i mean, what is the state of being sort of bubble-wrapped from reality that you could not just say that but think that? >> i'll say i'm really happy you played that clip. that was the line about the media that alarmed me the most in the entire recording that was released. and the reason why is there's a movement within the supreme court to destroy press freedom. you know, two justices, thomas and gorsuch have called for overruling a case called "new york times" v. sullivan, which is the font of press freedom in the united states of america. alito has not yet gone there. but when i hear him attack the

media -- and again, this isn't the first time he's done that either. i'm counting votes in my head. i'm saying okay, does that mean we now have a third vote for this terrible outcome? and if we have a third vote, that means we could potentially have five votes if donald trump is elected and gets to start replacing justices. so you know, on the one hand republicans have been attacking the press at least since spiro agnew. that's just one thing i expect from a republican official. but alito is someone who actually has the power to eliminate press freedom if he can find four other votes to do it. >> dahlia, i guess my question for you is what happens next? >> well, so this is the question we've been asking ourselves over the last year as these horrifying stories come out. and i feel like i'm going to say what i always say, which is we either sort of add this pearl to the endless string of outrages and continue to clutch them and say, as you asked ian, oh, there's nothing to do, or we really take a page from what

senator whitehouse is doing and other senators and congressmen who are saying like do we choose to live in helplessness or do we start very seriously talking about term limits and court expansion and jurisdiction stripping and meaningful ethics rules that the justices don't enforce on their own behalf. i mean, i think that what happens next is either -- and we see that the outrages are ticking up. don't forget, just on friday we had clarence thomas's amended financial disclosures that didn't include all of the trips and the gifts. so this will get worse in terms of behavior that's exposed, and we have to choose whether we normalize increasingly shocking behavior or begin to think about how to remediate it. >> so as the only campaign person on the panel i'll say there's a third path. republican politics, republican presidential campaigns ran on the supreme court. and then the dog caught the car. and now it's been not even democratic campaigns but you

know, red, red states like kansas have been voting against the dobbs decision. i mean, if you are the biden campaign or a group aligned with the biden campaign, i would run against trump, alito and thomas and their upside down flags. i mean, at what point does roberts jump in and say oh, this isn't good for anybody? >> i mean, roberts i think has been asked to jump in over and over again and he's been very, very clear he won't jump in. he won't talk to anyone, he won't talk to senators about it. i think we also have to have somewhat of a realistic sense of what roberts can do. the only real power that the chief justice has over the other justices is when he's in the majority he can assign who writes what opinion. so if he's really mad at alito he can give alito really boring opinions to write and make his job kind of reasonable. but that's all roberts really can do. i mean, ultimately this is going

to be decided not by roberts, not by the chair of the senate judiciary committee, not by anyone who can sort of shine a light on what's going on but not really do anything about it but by the voters. you know, if donald trump wins we could very well have five alitos on the supreme court. and if joe biden wins, then he can potentially start replacing justices like alito with people who are going to have a more respectful attitude toward the rule of law. >> well, and i guess the republican version of that would be you need five bidens to win, you need biden and his successors to win five times to undo the damage. and that was the force of republican campaigns. right? because it lasted 40 years. and it is very much the moment for a democratic movement as energized as the one that got us to this position. for jumping on the air and talking to us about this breaking story i thank you, and for your candor ian, dahlia and kristy thank you

so much for starting us off. tonight on the reidout my colleague joy reid will be joined by lauren windsor who has a brand new clip you haven't heard yet from justice alito's wife, the one who justice alito says is, quote, very fond of flying flags. tune in at 7:00 p.m. eastern. you do not want to miss that. when he with come back, the disgraced ex-president now calling the angry mob that attacked the u.s. capitol on january 6th, quote, warriors. it comes as we are getting a behind-the-scenes look at congressional leaders working feverishly to get help to the capitol, reinforcements to the capitol during the deadly insurrection. one of those leaders, former house speaker nancy pelosi, is our next guest. and later, it's shaping up to be the new epicenter of american politics. why arizona is playing such a critical role in this election. journalists and author george packer with extensive new reporting from that state and its political minefields. things like immigration and election denialism. he'll be our guest right here at the table. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. s after.

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you're going to ask me in the middle of the thing when they've already breached the inaugural stuff that -- should we call the capitol police? i mean, the national guard? why weren't the national guard there to begin with? >> why weren't they there? that remains one of the biggest questions surrounding the january 6th insurrection which did turn deadly. why did it take so long for the national guard to get to the capitol? the clip you saw was part of video obtained by msnbc from congressional sources, footage that has been in the hands of other media organizations and

the january 6th select committee and has aired on the air for some time now, years. it was shot by speaker pelosi's daughter, alexandra pelosi, who was on this show talking about this footage as well. it gives us a real inside look into the danger and the extraordinary chaos and decisions that were being made in real time by speaker pelosi and other congressional leaders to try to fortify and save and make safe and regain control of the capitol, in part by getting the national guard to the capitol asap. all while republicans continue to spout the lie that somehow the person trying to do that, speaker pelosi, was to blame. watch. >> we have had some mixed messages about -- >> thank you. >> response of your request, our request as well for the national guard to move in. >> okay.

madam speaker, let me just give you a rundown -- >> senator mccarthy and senator schumer. do you know what's going on? okay. well, d.c. has requested the national guard, and it's been denied by d.o.d. i'd like to know a good goddamn reason why it's been denied. >> and we were disappointed that it took so long to approve the national guard. but i'm glad to hear that that's at least moving. >> so again, just to root this conversation in the facts as they unfolded on camera thanks to intrepid filmmaker, the speaker's daughter, speaker pelosi, leader schumer, surrounded by lawmakers from both parties on the phone trying to get the national guard to the capitol. and again, just to root this conversation in facts, we'll remind you what then president trump was doing at the very same moment, the january 6th select committee investigated and told us. >> we know from the employee that the tv was tuned to fox

news all afternoon. here you can see fox news on the tv showing coverage of the joint session that was airing that day at 1:25. other witnesses confirm that president trump was in the dining room with the tv on for more than 2 1/2 hours. there was no official record of what president trump did while in the dining room. there's no official record of president trump receiving or placing a call between 11:06 and 6:54 p.m. as to what the president was doing that afternoon, the presidential daily diary is also silent. >> so again, while speaker pelosi was making calls, many of them caught on camera, demanding answers, trump was according to sources who were around him that day sitting and watching television. if we need any more indication or reporting that trump believes the rioters did nothing wrong and explains why he did nothing, this weekend while campaigning to be the president again he described them as, quote, warriors. making this warning from january

6th select committee member liz cheney all the more vital going forward. >> in addition to being unlawful as described in our report, this was an utter moral failure and a clear dereliction of duty. evidence of this can be seen in the testimony of president trump's own white house counsel and several other white house witnesses. no man who would behave that way at that moment in time can ever serve in any position of authority in our nation again. he is unfit for any office. >> joining our coverage, california democratic congresswoman, the speaker emerita nancy pelosi. madam speaker, nice to see you. thank you for being here. >> a pleasure to be here. thank you, nicolle. >> why do you think this has stirred up and a brouhaha on the right and in some corners of the media today? >> well, because the fact is

that the president of the united states, the former president, and his toadies do not want to face the facts. they're trying to do revisionist history on january 6th. but we cannot let us be dragged into their again false impression of what happened that day. they know what happened that day. they know how serious it is and was and continues to have an impact on our country. and yet they want to call the people who were in there hostages. last night i received the lincoln award. i was so proud of receiving that. and i said in my remarks, lincoln built the dome on the capitol. he insisted that it be built during the civil war so that it could show the resilience of america. and to see these people coming through the capitol with their foul deeds and foul actions,

waving confederate flags and nazi flags under lincoln's dome was so shameful. and yet this president who incited -- this former president who incited this insurrection would not send the national guard for hours. people were harmed. people were killed. that died one way or another. and what did he do but try to deny that any of it happened. this is a terrible thing. but let us not take away the attention of what we need to do to go forward. we have to unify our country. we have to bring people together in a way, in a way that honors the vision of our founders. the sacrifice of our men and women in uniform as well as the aspirations of our children. i just came back from d-day in normandy to see our veterans there who -- the 80th anniversary. some of the youngest of them were 97, some over 100.

they fought for our freedom. and yet you see how it is being denigrated by the former president and his republican toadies. >> madam speaker, you've always been sort of a tip of the spear figure in our politics. and you always -- i don't know if people know this. i don't know if you like this said on tv. republicans, my old boss included, have not even grudging respect, have immense respect for your love of country and your patriotism. stuart stevens made the point in the last hour that if this campaign is waged around big things like the flag, which trump supporters denigrated on the day of the insurrection when they held it upside down, an upside down flag also on the property, the virginia property of supreme court justice alito, also according to journalist vaughn hillyard showing up all around the country, leading to this movement of denigrating the flag, showing it in a sign of distress as a political

statement, describing veterans as losers and suckers, something general kelly had to come out and confirm on the record and say it was definitely true, i mean, if the campaign is waged around the flag, around whether men and women who die serving the country are losers and suckers or not, what do you think that campaign looks and feels like for the american people? >> well, let me just say that republicans have always tried to wrap themselves in the flag while they denigrate it. i come from baltimore, maryland originally, where the national anthem was written, and in the national anthem my favorite line is "proof through the night that our flag was still there." we have the proof through the night of this activity that they're putting on that our flag is still there, with liberty and justice for all. but we have to run the campaign around the kitchen table issues, about jobs and access to health care and education and what it means for america's working

families. that is how they make their decisions. the kitchen table is more important than the corporate boardroom table, the cabinet table, anything. it is the most important place where decisions are made about the future. and we have to be sure people know that joe biden created 15 million jobs under his leadership in the private sector for sure also but under his leadership and what we passed in law to infuse into the economy, that he has done so in building the infrastructure of america in a fair and just way where people can make the decisions in their communities about how they go forward with the infrastructure. the chips and science act about not only creating the chips opportunities but also the scientific opportunity for young people who have not been able to participate. the pact act to help our veterans who have been exposed

to burn pits and the rest. the rescue package which put shots in the arms, money in the pocket, children back in school, people back to work. somehow or other we have to make sure they're not distracted by some of this other stuff that's going on among the republicans, to make sure they know that job creation, access to lower costs for health care, insulin, $35 a month instead of 500 or $600 a month. people have to know how it affects them personally. and at the same time we have to win so that we can again overturn -- we can't overturn it but we can mitigate for the damage of citizens united decision of the supreme court. getting back to the supreme court, they have jurisdiction over jobs, environment, education, election law, all the rest of it, and they have been frivolous with it. so people have to know that the

elections have ramifications but also at the supreme court, where the precedent of the court, in the constitution should be respected, that people who want to be a justice should tell the truth when they're asked if they believe in precedents or privacy in the supreme court rather than saying one thing and doing another when they come. and what about immunity? they have not ruled yet on whether a president is immune? that he is above the law? so there's plenty of reason to be concerned about liberty and justice for all. but people vote for more about what affects them in their lives. and they care about our democracy. but we have to show them that we care directly about them as well. and we have proven that. now, nobody votes for anybody because they deserve it. they vote for you for what we're going to do next. and joe biden has put forth a

great agenda to continue the work that he has done for affordability, for job creation, for lowering health care costs. the list goes on and on. >> i want to -- i have to sneak in a break, but i want to ask you, when you stick around through the break, if we can talk about the tables really turning on some of the issues you just listed there. if you'll stick around through the break, we'll have that conversation on the other side. >> a pleasure. thank you. e other side >> a pleasure. thank you. kibble— it just seemed like the thing to do. but ...he was getting picky we heard about the farmer's dog... and it was a complete transformation. his coat was so soft, he had amazing energy. he was a completely different dog. it's a no-brainer that (remi) should have the most nutritious and delicious food possible. i'm investing in my dog's health and happiness.

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the idea that i'd come to normandy and not make the short trip here to pay tribute. and it's the same story. think about it. america showed up. america showed up. to stop the germans. america showed up to make sure that they did not prevail. and america shows up when they're needed. >> you feel the breeze? 'cause i don't want anybody going on me. we need every voter. i don't care about you. i just want your vote. i don't care. >> we're back with speaker emerita nancy pelosi. madam speaker, the contrasts write themselves. i wonder how you really focus -- trump space gets too much attention -- he's forgotten about them. he just wants their votes in his own words. the media's been obsessed with them for years. how do you pay attention to the nikkei haley voters and the coalition that president joe biden assembled for his winning candidacy in 2020? how do you sort of narrow the

issues and focus people who aren't paying attention every day on politics? >> well, thank you for asking that question. as you know, a woman's right to choose is seriously in jeopardy under the republicans and under a future presidency of what's his name. i don't like to use his name. as he again takes great pride in overturning roe v. wade. so that is one place where -- look, i'm a mother of five. i have five children in six years in one week and i just really respect women to be able to make their own decision. it's a matter of respect. and it isn't a question of whether some supreme court justice approves of that or not. it's whether the rights of privacy in the constitution make that available to people and the precedent of the court on it. so this is seriously at risk. and it's one of the issues. gun violence prevention is

another. issues that relate to saving the planet are another. democracy is another. but again, it comes to the kitchen table. and a woman's right to choose is a direct kitchen table issue. the safety of our children is a very important family issue. i was in -- i was in normandy for this year, the 80th anniversary. this is my third trip. i took delegations there on the 70th anniversary, the 75th anniversary, and now this anniversary. and to see the courage of those -- some of them as i say 97 to 104 was the oldest one i know. he's from baltimore. to see their courage and their patriotism and their wanting to end war, end war. and to see president biden be so magnificently received. his speeches were so patriotic

and so unifying, not just for our country but for people who care about democracy. and the commitment to ukraine. very, very important. because as they fight for democracy they're fighting for democracy writ large. the president even referenced president reagan's speech was 40 years ago. halfway since normandy invasion. about ending isolation, avoiding isolation in our country. so all of those issues are about our values system. but what we have to put forward to those voters is what it's going to affect their lives directly, a woman's right to choose and the rest. and remember this. the elections are about the courts. not only the supreme court but the other courts, where very many decisions are made, even affecting the nature of our democracy with their citizens united horrible decision that they made.

so again, as we appeal to people depending on age and the rest, there are certain priorities that they have and we listen and we appeal to them and we will be mobilized to own the ground, to get out our vote, disciplined in our message about what our priorities are for our future. elections are about the future. and the resources and energy necessary to win the election. we absolutely must. everything is at stake. our flag with liberty and justice for all. the planet as we know it. our democracy. a woman's right to choose. so many issues are at stake. and i feel very confident that we will be able to have that appeal as people pay attention to the election. and that we have to have the truth prevail instead of what the other side is putting out. >> congresswoman nancy pelosi is always in high demand during

this campaign time of year. thank you very much for sharing sort of your thinking on the full -- the full conversation that needs to happen between now and election night. thank you for being here today. >> thank you. my pleasure. thank you, nicolle. >> thank you. it has become the political epicenter of this highly charged moment in our country's history and of the election year. why all eyes are on the state of arizona. journalist and author george packer will join us at the table after a very short break. don't go anywhere. don't go anyw.

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an important and exquisitely reported complicated piece of reporting out today. the "atlantic's" george packer writes about the future of american democracy in a deeply frankly scary and important election year and what we can learn from phoenix, arizona. in a swing state of constant growth and change and chafing but also a hotbed of political extremism and election denialism. packer writes this, quote, growth keeps coming at a furious pace despite decades of drought and despite political extremism that makes every election a crisis threatening violence. democracy is also a fragile artifice. it depends less on tradition and law than on the shifting contents of individual skulls, belief, virtue restraint. its durability under natural and human stress is being put to an intense test in the valley. and because a vision of vanishing now haunts the whole

country, phoenix is a guide to our future. wow. joining us at the table the aforementioned george packer staff writer for "the atlantic," byline on that piece of reporting. haunting is the world i'll use to describe this. like that icky gut feeling when you know that tensions are high and everyone is armed. >> so i spent a year working on this piece. and it's amazing we still have a magazine, journalism that wants that kind of length and depth. so i was lucky to get to do it. because phoenix to me is where you can see america in all its energy, its growth, its innovation and its terror and its climate crisis. right now we're in early june and it's over 110 in phoenix. so i wanted to see how viable are we at this stage in our history and can we solve a

problem as big as disappearing groundwater, for example? when we have a political culture that goes to the extreme and that doesn't trust institutions and in which lying and division is just the natural way that grifters are going to get elected or make money in media. and it's not a simple story because there are people doing impressive things. but there's also -- i had a kind of fear the whole time that it wouldn't take a whole lot to set this place off because

>> is that the best we can do in this moment? hope to be lucky? >> i think there are things that, for example, officials are doing in arizona tuesday try to get ahead of this information and explain the process of counting vote and why it can be trusted. and why it is not rigged people who do not want to believe that are not going to believe it, no matter what facts are presented to them. i was less encouraged by what i saw politics than by what i saw of the problem of water, which i spent a lot of time with. you know arizona. >> you are from california and so am i . it is embedded in everything in arizona . phoenix, you can see what american ingenuity is capable of. they are 600 philly investment 600 trillion gallons of water.

i think they are phasing out the golf courses and trying not to water lawns during rain storms. phoenix plan ahead from 100 years ago and there is some called the salt river project. 602 trillion gallons of water reserves. it is not as though phoenix is about to run out of water. there is also political polarization, which is presenting -- preventing the legislature from doing what it should in order to prevent groundwater, deep fossil water, which is disappearing and cannot be replaced from being depleted by regulation. people out in rural parts of arizona are seeing their wells go dry because big mega farms are coming in from out of state and pumping groundwater for alfalfa and not farms. that is very much on people's minds. it is the kind of thing that can actually, i saw it, bridge

partisan divide. when you're well is empty, it does not really matter who you are for with president. >> the water becomes the thing that reveals how we cannot function if our politics break. arizona, if it breaks, it feels fraught, is that a fairway? if the feeling right now, which is extremely fraught moment, if that goes away, it feels like the policy process falls apart. i want you to answer that but we need a quick break first. we will be right back. ight back. th t i'm saying ♪ -cologuard®? -cologuard. cologuard! -screen for colon cancer. -at home, like you want. -you the man! -actually, he's a box. cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ i did it my way ♪ (vo) if you have graves' disease,

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we are back with george packer. the story touches on so many things but i do want to ask you out the trump supporting legislator in arizona, who sort of drew the line after supporting trump and saying, i want to overturn the vote in arizona. >> he was the speaker of the house but after the 2020 election, trump and giuliana called him while he was driving home from church and said, we want you to look into this law that we found that says there is some question about the vote then we can get new electors. he understood, immediately that they were asking him to do something illegal. as he said to me, i felt my conscience rising up into my mouth with the words don't do it. tell them you won't do it.

i just do all the politicians and the last two years, who have had a similar moment. and buried the words. rusty bowers set i will not do anything illegal. that was the end of his career but it two years but the arizona republican party destroyed his future. and he is a wonderful man of principle. you look at him and you think, he has been carved out of the contagious rock. >> he is like a western. they tormented him. they drove a truck outside his house describing him -- >> while his daughter was dying, they were video panel trucks with loudspeakers driving up his road telling his neighbors, your neighbor is a pervert, a pedophile and a trader. armed guys walking up to his property line trying to defy

him to challenge. it was so ugly that was a moment when you can easily imagine violence breaking out. bowers held his ground both physically and morally. no longer is in politics but you cannot be in politics in arizona if you are republican and you do not believe that the elections are all raked. >> i have to have you come back. i spent a lot of time in arizona when i work for john mccain. i was so careful to not speak to him but i cannot stop thinking that what he would think of the story. you see the world the way he did, you are not in arizona's republican party, right? >> the phoenix that he helped build is very much there. it is just thriving with 5 million people in the valley with a high tech pouring in. microchip factories and battery plans.

it is a really energetic dynamic place. it has this inner flaw that could be fatal. which is political extremism that keeps growing. so that his republican party does not exist anymore. you cannot have a career in the republican party and be a john mccain republican. >> that just gives me the pit in my stomach that your description, political violence feels like an undercurrent. violence would be the ultimate expression. what is almost not worse but more present is a constant stream of lies and i spent time watching the turning point usa annual convention headquartered in phoenix. i saw charlie kirk and every other maga star on stage. it was an overwhelming experience of hearing hate will

be made lined into the crowd. when you talk to people in the crowd one on one, i had a number of conversations, even with my press badge, we have civil and decent conversations. once it was charlie kirk and company on stage, it was just pure galvanizing negative feelings, ultimately hatred and division and them. it is a revolution from above. we have to fight it. that is how people get elected and make money these days. that is what the inner flaw that could be fatal. >> i invoke your brilliant book all the time. my understanding of how to cover i hope people come back and be a regular who tries to understand the country this year. >> always happy to talk to you >> fantastic, george packer is our gas but we want to thank all of you for lett