thank you for watching. we were just talking about the summer olympics, it's worth noting, that minutes from now, we will officially be two years out from the 2026 world cup that will take place right here in the u.s. after 30 years, and you can stream all the action live on telemundo and peacock so get your countdown clock started now. on that note, i wish you a very good night. from all our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thank you for staying up late with me. okay, there is a lot going on tonight. the former president of the united states and presumptive

republican nominee had a meeting with a probation officer today which is a thing we have to get used to saying. we will talk about what may have come up and how it could impact his sentencing coming up in a month. pennsylvania governor josh shapiro will talk about one of the biggest political questions of the moment. how should joe biden and democrats talk about trumps conviction and how much? >> we will start at the supreme court and a mountain of ethics scandal sick out much bigger and it got bigger because of a woman named lauren windsor. she is a progressive actavis was known to approach important republican figures every 10 she's an ally and make lettering statements and then record her targets making candid comments. comments reported at the historical society annual dinner, supreme court justice samuel alito offered his assessment of the political and ideological struggle in america.

>> i don't know that we can negotiate with the left in no way that needs to happen through the polarization to end. i think it's a matter of winning . >> i think you're probably right. on one side or the other, one side or the other is going to win. i don't know. i mean, there can be a way of working -- a way of living together peacefully. it's difficult. there are differences on fundamental things that really can't be compromised. they really can't be compromised. it's not like you can -- the difference. >> one side or the other is going to win. we heard in a vacuum by someone that those comments may not seem particularly striking but remember alito is one of nine justices on the supreme court.

it is supposed to conduct itself with utmost fairness and impartiality in interpreting the constitution and adjudicating the laws and one of its justices, samuel alito, is telling a stranger at a crowded event that he believes one political side is going to win. that there is no place for compromise. following his time on the court, it's no secret which side he believes he is on. look at the past few weeks. justice alito has refused to recuse himself from a january 6 case and the trump immunity case currently sitting before the court even after reports that his home displayed flags with right-wing political symbolism including ago upside down american flag in the days after january 6. alito who built a reputation over the course of years as being tough on crime and unsympathetic to criminal defendants also voiced a newfound empathy for january 6

defendants of all people and donald trump during oral arguments in two cases. take for example the case of a january 6 defendant. alito questions the justice department use of obstruction stature to rescue people involved in the capitol attack. he suggested that if the court does not intervene, prosecutors could also seek to use it people involved in peaceful demonstration like those that take place in a courtroom from time to time. peaceful protest is clearly not the same as people smashing windows and doors to invade the capitol and causing members of congress, never mind the republican vice president of the united states to flee for their lives. in the face of multiple ethics scandals we've all been talking about involving undisclosed is from mega-donors to members of the supreme court, the 11th hour has been unapologetic telling the wall street journal, quote, no provision in the constitution gives congress

the authority to regulate the supreme court period. fairness and impartiality in appearance and action are the principles that judges are supposed to follow. especially in the highest court of the land, and at least at some point samuel alito knew the. this into an answer to his confirmation hearing in 2006. >> do you believe there's any room for a judge on value or personal believes when he or she interprets the constitution? >> judges have to be careful not to inject their own views into the interpretation of the constitution and for that matter into the interpretation of statutes. that's not the job we are given. it's not authority we are given. >> it's not the authority we are given. that's not the job we are given. alito at least knew then what his job he entailed. despite all his actions and statements he also apparently

cannot stand those who claim he's not living up to those standards. as he told the wall street journal, everyone is free to express disagreement with our decisions and to criticize our reasoning as they see fit. saying or implying the court is becoming an legitimate institution are questioning our integrity crosses the line. he wants to be revered as an impartial judge. as this new tape and his time on the bench has shown, especially the last several weeks and months, he's more of a player, actively engaged in one side struggle to win. he has given every reason to expect this from him given these actions that also doesn't mean it's something we should or need to accept. the formal president of the naacp defense fund and the chair in civil rights a howard university and she joins me now. i always want to know what you are thinking but as i listen to

these tapes, i wanted to know what are you thinking as you are listening. we are all guilty of becoming numb two things. how big of a deal is this? >> i think it's a big deal. it's a big deal and the cumulative cents, as you point out, this is not a colloquy that floats around in the air not surrounded by plenty of context. we have seen these statements from justice alito, not only in his decisions, but when he went to rome after the dobbs decision, we have heard him in similar ways. what is it that's disturbing about this particular excerpt of this conversation, there are two things i think. one, the way in which he was bantering back and forth with this woman who we didn't know was taping him in a way that suggested sympathy to her

position. she was saying some pretty extreme things. probably the worst of it was when she said we have to work to move this country back towards godliness. he said, i agree with you. that to me is a very shocking statement. i do not think that is his charge as a supreme court justice to suggest he believes the country needs to move toward godliness. she spoke often of what it was like in the past and we need to return to some period in which things were more moral and he was agreeing with her. i do not know what period they were referring to. a period in which there was much more religious talk in american life but there was also talk of keeping black people out of schools. what was the time period? i think all of this, the reason why it's important is because the standard is a reasonable

person standard and justice alito raised it himself when he refused to recuse himself from a variety of cases. he said because a reasonable person knowing all the facts, that's what he said about the flag controversy. when we probe, we realize we do not know all the facts and the facts he has told us are not necessarily the accurate facts. we learned that from the flag flying issue when justice alito gave a line that does not add up. now, the reasonable person would reasonably believe perhaps that this justice is not impartial. that is the standard for recusal, but we will never get there unless parties actual file motions to recuse. that's why i am hoping this will show the united states which is the party and trump privilege case and others that they have to have the courage to demand that these justices come forward in the context of recusal and explain themselves.

we are not going to get it from sending letters to the justices and we will not get it from having the justices just recuse themselves because they will not do it. we need to get serious. we also need hearings from the senate judiciary committee to get to the bottom of this. this is quite serious. quite disturbing. quite alarming, and it's not illegitimate to question the legitimacy of the court when we have had this barrage across the line conduct and misstatements and disclosures that would call into question the impartiality of any court. >> yeah. one of the things it was striking to me too is how he blames the erosion of trust in the court. he blames it on all sorts of things. i was reminded of this today that he said in 2023 and then talk about it with you. >> it's easy to blame the media, but i do blame them because they do nothing but

criticize us. and so, they have really eroded trust in the court. >> i mean it's pretty rich given his actions and his own words. it's not the first time he's blamed someone else. his wife, everyone attacking him. what is that about? i want to ask you, what should people be doing if they are outraged about this as well? >> i find this mortifying. i am embarrassed for the court. we hear it with clarence thomas when he talks about the nastiness in washington, d.c. and we hear what alito. it's the media that eroded trust in the supreme court. no,'s the stream preet -- supreme court that eroded trust. this teenage refusal to take responsibility for their actions is incredibly alarming and disturbing. i put that at the feet of chief justice roberts. he is running the court. if i were running an

institution and something extraordinary happened that like the dobbs case which is something that never happened before in the history of the court, a decision was leaked to the public. i wouldn't just be trying to get to the bottom of who leaked it. as vigorously as possible. i would want to understand what we created in our culture that encouraged such a breach of culture and protocol. all of these things should require the court to self reflect, look at themselves. why you have a justice on the court like clarence thomas who is not making the appropriate disclosures? he's making them now that he has been found out. it has nothing to do with the media. the media is doing its job. the media has been quite kind to the supreme court including around the flag issue which we didn't hear until three years later. it is not the media and the

justices have to stop being stubborn teenagers and take responsibility for their actions. this is where the leadership of the chief comes in. when the chief allows a code of conduct, a voluntary code, as he allowed several months ago, a code so much weaker than the code that holds all other federal judges, he is essentially allowing and creating this culture of impunity in which they create rules that accommodate the actions they have already taken. we have a real problem, ethical problem on the supreme court. i blame us. i blame congress. we have failed. we have counted on the good behavior and the norms of the supreme court instead of putting in place real rules they have to follow and congress does have the power to be able

to issue a code of ethics for the united states supreme court, and they should do so. we cannot blame this on the justices. we can't blame it on trump. we can't blame it on anything else but the belief that norms are not. they are not -- they are not enough and we have to get serious about what kinds of protections we need in place for the integrity of the nation's highest court. >> the norms are no more. lots of homework including from chief roberts. sherrilyn ifill, thank you for joining me. coming up, pennsylvania governor josh shapiro joins me to talk about terms conviction and his promises of revenge. the former president of the presumptive nominee had a meeting with his probation officer today. it doesn't get normal to say. we will tell you what he was likely asked about and how it can affect his sentencing.

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probation officer ahead of his sentencing first 34 felony convictions. as biden campaign chair, this is one of those times when we need to reflect on the extraordinary moment we are in. >> can we stop and the fact that i'll talk about the debate, but a guy who wants to be president first has to sit down with his probation officer. that is an astounding statement that sometimes people walk by. i do not think most americans will walk by that. >> he is completely right. we can't breeze by this stuff. is interviewed today happened virtually from mar-a-lago which is not typical because meetings usually happen in person but is not a typical person. the interview is standard procedure for anyone convicted of a felony in new york. one standard question he may have been asked is whether he associates with criminals. other convicted felons like

paul manafort, roger stone, steve bannon, all his buddies. we should not forget how extraordinary this moment is. kristy greenberg the former deputy chief of the criminal division of the southern district of new york and joins me now. you tweeted today that trump would try to convince the probation officer not to recommend a jail sentence, but you said probation should reject that argument. how does that conversation go down during one of these meetings? >> i think what you probably saw, and it's only 30 minutes. it's a short interview, but you probably saw todd blanche taking the lead to trotta highlight positive aspects of donald trump's character that they think are mitigating circumstances and things they think are going to show he is dashes supervision. his criminal conduct which he denies, there's no victim here. i think the probation officer needs to look closer because her are victims. the american people were victims

by not getting information that he was paying off the adult film star that could have affected the election outcome. other things he will focus on, i was a former president of the united states. i performed a great public service and should take that into account and that's mitigating. he committed some of this crime , signing those checks, to reimburse michael cohen from the oval office. you can argue it's an aggravating factor. he will say he's a first-time offender. who else is a first-time offender? michael cohen and he was sentenced in jail for the same conduct. he will point to the fact he is old. allen weisselberg is essentially the same age and he is in rikers. a lot of the factors i expect todd blanche trotta highlight in this interview and its going to be on the prosecutors to

make their case separately to the probation office in presenting the facts, the trial record showing all those gag order violations, to show he is not following the court's ureters and he will not follow the orders of probation so sentence him to jail. >> a lot of things to argue. i mentioned one of the standard lines of questioning, i believe, during one of these meetings is whether the person convicted of a felony associates with criminals. trump has a number of people who fall into that category. i presume he will say no. i do not know what he said but what if he does associate with convicted criminals? are the repercussions? >> there are. if he were sentenced to a term probation, there would be terms to that. among them is he cannot associate with other convicted felons. steve bannon for example is somebody was

convicted for criminal contempt and has a trial that will start in a few months before judge merchan on a separate fraud case. with someone like that, who he has not pardoned because he pardoned a number of other criminals, he has not pardoned, he would not be able to associate with and these are people that likely involved in his campaign and he would want to associate with. figure he will do that through intermediaries if he is sentenced to probation. >> thank you for explaining this to us and helping us understand it. donald trump is not going to be able to end democracy on his own. he will need help and lots of help is available. we will introduce you to someone who could be his chief of staff who has chilling plans. josh shapiro joins me to talk about the ways in which the rule of law will be on the

ballot in 2024.

ever since a jury of 12 americans convicted donald trump on 34 felony counts, trump and his republican allies used it as an opportunity to spin up their plans for revenge. you know. justifiable retribution against their perceived enemies. >> what's good for the goose is good for the gander. i encourage all my colleagues

as a member of congress to aggressively go after the president and his family. >> is every house committee controlled by republicans using subpoena power in every way it needs to right now with every republican da starting every investigation they need to now? >> should democrats be in jail. should he lock them up in jail? >> would that be a terrible thing. but they want to do it. it's a terrible terrible path they are leading us to and it's possible that it will have to happen to them. >> so, in their description, as you heard, it's about karma. fighting fire with fire. that is the story they are telling over and over. it's the one far too many writers are running with. in the media, the story tends

to be framed as follows. will trump seek revenge for his legal travails or won't he? but that framing unwittingly lets trump set the terms of the debate and applies he is vowing to do to democrats what was done to him. you see, obviously, there's a big difference between what happened to trump and what he is promising to do to democrats or anyone he is mad at. despite what he and his allies claim, trump was legitimately investigated, indicted, tried, and convicted unanimously by a jury of his peers. 12 everyday americans. there was a legal basis and evidence for all of it presented during the trial. what trump and his allies want is not that kind of deliberative due process. they are not trying to hold people accountable for actual wrongdoing. they are trying to reshape the american justice system to make it a tool to go after democrats or anyone who has done trump

wrong. political prosecutions were major goal for the maga movement longer for trump got indicted or convicted. i was reminded this weekend, the washington post published a eye-popping piece on influential figure in trump eye orbit that you might not be familiar with. i had never heard of the guy he there. is a former director of the office of management and budget and his name is russ vought. according to the piece, he's a potential chief of staff in a trump term and could wield a lot of power. a self-proclaimed christian nationalist who departs at the heritage foundation project 2025 on how to remake the executive branch in a trump presidency. in september 2022, before trump got indicted or entered the presidential race, he wrote an essay saying the left dragged american 28, quote, constitutional moment saying it was time for the right to reinterpret the constitution and a radical new way. he encouraged conservatives to, quote, throw up residents and

legal paradigms that have wrongly developed over the last two -- 200 years. in their place he laid out plans for, quote, donald trump to deploy the military to quash civil unrest, seize control over the justice department, and this is the power to withhold congressional appropriations. is just on his first day back in office. he's not calling for accountability through due process of the law to hold people accountable. he wants to reshape the system for the purpose of punishing trump's perceived enemies. last year, he told the heritage foundation crowd, quote, the department of justice is not an independent agency. if anyone brings it up in a policy meeting, i want them out of the meeting. this is the larger picture outside of the news cycle and latest public and cash republican reactions. the republican line of fight fire with fire you hear over and over again is really cover for a frightening plan to

overhaul the justice system and the executive branch at large. by the way, it predates trump's convictions and indictments. it's what they've had in mind all along. pennsylvania governor josh shapiro joins me next.

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country see the rule of law. i guess these are some of the basic questions. are we okay with a system or local da presents evidence to a grand jury and they recommend an indictment, there's a trial, de jure and someone innocent or guilty? would we prefer country where the president uses the justice department as his personal law firm? the system where every american is accountable to the same set of laws or we would we prefer where the president can prosecute whomever he chooses simply because he does not like them. the election will be about a lot of things. that is definitely one of them. joining me is pennsylvania governor josh shapiro, previously the state attorney general. i am grateful you are here. i want to start with i laid out. this idea that donald trump and his allies are bowing but they are telling supporters is simply fighting fire with fire. you did something it to our guy and we will come after you.

to me, when you look at the specifics of their plans, it feels like that's not the right description. it's not just revenge but a plan to reshape the system to go after their enemies. last week you said something that struck me. you said i am scared to death the fees in charge of the system. i want to ask you what you mean by that or what do you expect, what worries you what could happen to the system? >> i am deeply concerned by this system. it's why we should not put the country at risk by putting donald trump back in charge, back in charge of the justice system, back in charge of our military. donald trump came out of those 34 convictions doing what he always does when he gets in legal trouble. a cut and paste job if you will. i remember this from my time as attorney general, he complains, he bemoans the fact that he lost and makes up excuses and

tries to pivot away from personal responsibility. i was the attorney general in pennsylvania where he and his allies took us to court 43 different times to stop certain people from voting and stop vote from being cast. he went sero-43. we protected the will of law and the people. trump wants to come back and as he said exact revenge. the idea he would be put in charge of the justice system and have people surrounding him that are trying to get his perceived enemies should scare all americans. it's another example of the kind of chaos that he would inflict on the country if he is given the opportunity to lead this nation again. we have always been a nation that respects the rule of law, respects our institutions. trump tried to undermine our faith in one another and faith in the institutions.

we didn't let him get away with it in 2020 and i hope we don't let him get away with it in 2024 and i will do everything in my power to ensure he is not successful and our institutions stand and hold. >> let me ask you about something you alluded to which is the takeover of the justice system. i think when people hear that, they think it's a reshuffling of the government. what does it mean? i talked about russ vought, this figure in trump's world. he could be his chief of staff. who s. this is a man who has openly said he does not believe the department of justice is an independent agency. i want to ask you, what is the danger of that? sometimes it feels like bureaucracy but it's more than that. >> it's a lot more than bureaucracy. it's dangerous if he controls the bureaucracy as well. think of the justice department. he would have the power to criminally prosecute people who

did not do anything wrong but are his enemies. go after companies that he disagreed with. the products they are selling the manner in which they are conducting themselves. to use the justice department to strip away people's liberties and rights and freedoms and undermine the constitution. ignore the courts. essentially, have his way with the good people of this nation, which should scare everybody. in 2016 after donald trump was running, he and most people didn't know what they were doing and there were a few people around him the provided guardrails for his chaotic conduct. now those people who might provide those guardrails, they are gone and a lot of the dangers people around him know how the bureaucracy works. knows how the justice system works and knows how the military works. if he is given the opportunity to lead the nation again with

this people around him who want to do real danger and take away your fundamental freedoms, that should scare the hell out of everybody and that's not the chaos we want in this country. >> it's the people who know how to manipulate it and the plans being written and a lot are online. keeping with the legal discussion, want to ask about the supreme court. we talked about the supreme court and justice samuel alito and this audio where he agreed there should be a fight to return the country to a place of godliness. this comes on the heels of reporting of a flag outside his house that's associated with january 6 and serious ethical scandals around thomas. lots of things. it feels like there is a credibility crisis for the supreme court. i want to ask you, what is the solution? >> remember, this is the court that donald trump packed in order to take away a woman's

right to choose. in order to meet my daughter and other women out there have fewer rights today than they were born with. this is purposeful on donald trump's part to pack the court with these people that want to restrict our freedom. people who have their own agendas. justice alito is showing his agenda. by the way he flies his flags and apparently the way he runs his mouth as well. what the american people need to do is take that into consideration when they go vote this november. you want to give donald trump the ability to appoint more samuel alito's and clarence thomas's to the court? you want to give him the ability to put more people on the court who will take away our fundamental freedoms? justice thomas wrote in that opinion that abortion is really just the beginning. the fundamental reasoning, foundational reasoning used to

overturn it could be applied in other ways. could be used to restrict your ability to marry who you love and undermine her ability to take the medications that you and your doctor want you to take. i fear this was just the beginning and of donald trump is given the ability to lead this nation again, but more those justices on the court, it will not only set us back for 40 years. the stakes are so high in this election. while donald trump and joe biden's names are on the ballot, and it's a binary choice. don't let anybody tell you there are others on the ballot who have no chance of winning. it's a binary choice between donald trump and joe biden, but in many ways it's not about those two. it's about the country we want for ourselves whether we value freedom, whether we care about our institutions, whether we believe that we have to move forward to brighter days are go

back to a very dark time. this election is a referendum and reflection on all of us and we have a responsibility to turn out and get others to turn out who will stand up against the kind of extremism we've seen on the supreme court and in the white house with trump and instead stand up for freedom. stand up for our fundamental values that continue to move the country forward. >> i have to ask you about pennsylvania. in addition to a legal expert, you are a governor and you know your state well. it has not been that long since these convictions stash we have seen impact in the polls. there's a lot of things on the ballot and on voters minds. is you talk to voters, do you think trump's convictions is going to be an issue that will influence people to are on the fence or have it come to joe

biden at this point in your state? >> i don't know how the conviction will ultimately play out. the good people of pennsylvania, they care whether in rural or urban or suburban communities about basic things. they want good schools. safe communities. economic opportunities and they want their freedoms to be protected. you know what? i think they want to be led by someone who is honest and decent. someone who is on their side like joe biden. all they hear from donald trump is a bunch of whining about this country. i think trump has to quit whining and trying to divide us. we are producing more energy than ever before in this nation. we have the strongest economy in the world, and we are beating china for the first time in decades. more people went to work this morning in america than at any

other time in the nation my ski history. i've got a message to donald trump and his negativity and whining, stop talking about america. it's the greatest country on earth and it's time we start acting like it. the good people of pennsylvania understand this is a great country. understand we've got a whole lot going for us, and it's time to continue this path of progress that joe biden has laid out and not go back to a negative time. not listen to the whining of the former president and instead focus on a positive future for all of us. >> quit your whining. that's a good message. thank you so much. i always enjoy talking to you. ♪♪ big story to tell. ♪♪ ♪♪ i take once-daily jardiance ♪♪ ♪♪ at each day's staaart. ♪♪ ♪♪ as time went on it was easy to seeee, ♪♪ ♪♪ i'm lowering my a1c! ♪♪

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we don't know how many americans will be moved by donald trump's conviction when it's all said and done. there are some early signs that the verdict be swaying some former trump voters. this is what we heard from two

time trump voters in a focus group. >> criminals should not be in charge. if they violate the laws, then they should be subject to exactly the same rose that all of us expected to abide to. >> he should serve jail time. penalty for the crime. they will negotiate and renegotiate and maybe he won't serve time, but he will get more time on television right here at election time. >> to underscore, that's two time trump voters saying lock him up. >> you just saw sarah, she conducted the focus group you just heard. dan is a former communications director for president barack obama. i want to start with the thing stash we only played one clip but that was from the two time trump voters who want trump

held accountable it sounds like. the big leap year is they want him to be held accountable but are they turned off by trump or will they vote for biden instead or do we know that yet? >> in this particular group, five of the nine people in the group all of them two time trump voters, five were going to vote for biden. i think there's a lot of people who think somebody who voted for donald trump twice seem like a long shot for getting them to vote for biden. it's important to understand that for a section of voters who held their nose and vote for donald trump twice, and then saw what happened on january 6, saw donald trump's claims and lies about the election, they were already -- that was a redline for them. they were pretty far out. what the conviction does is it moves them from, and i hear

this a lot from two time trump voters who are really upset by january 6, i'm not going to vote or i will leave it blank. for some voters with the conviction did as he got them to a place where they said this guy is unfit to be in the white house so i will vote for biden not because i want to vote for him or because i want to vote for a democrat because i will vote for anybody that will keep donald trump out of the white house because he is that dangerous. you are always in the selection especially with swing voters who are center-right, for them you're not building a pro joe biden coalition. you're building a anti-trump coalition. as trump gets back in people's consciousness which is a lot of what's happening with the conviction, people are remembering, i don't like that guy. you are seeing a shift in voters before they were focused on negative things they thought about biden and now they are remembering the negative things they do not like about trump.

>> it so interesting to watch her focus groups. dan, you and i know well there's big moments in campaigns. we have seen the campaign sharpening the rhetoric around the convictions. there's a difference between what the campaign says, and what the candidates say. when you look to the debate coming up, a couple weeks from now, what should the president be saying? he is trying to appeal to those voters and base voters who are not excited. what is the right framing of language? >> the conviction is the elephant in the room. you have to talk about it. calling him convicted felon as many times as possible and trying to win again points. that's not a good use. the conviction is a critical data point in the story that a lot of the polling and focus groups tell us we should be telling about trump which is he is in this for himself. he is running for office to

protect himself from further legal jeopardy and help himself and his rich friends and exact revenge on enemies. that me first attitude is what got him in trouble to begin with. you have to take this conviction, it caused people to break out of their anti- politics bubble for a few minutes and pay attention then tell it to use -- to talk the broader story. use it in a disciplined, calm way that does not allow trump to drag you when the mud. >> that makes sense to me. sarah, i want to ask a similar question. there's a couple different audiences biden has to appeal to. is there anything that the president could say during the debate about the convictions that would turn them off? anything that would be a trigger about it? >> when it comes to swing voters, the thing for biden is

not the message. it's how he says it. for them, they want to see joe biden can do this job. you have to get people over this hump that they think joe biden is too old. this is where trump wins often times. he has lunatic energy that makes him seem more the fishes, more aggressive, and sometimes when you listen to voters as they get into the strong weak framing where trump is bad and strong but biden is okay but weak. he has to show some strength. he cannot just say conviction over and over but he has to go on offense. the whole campaign right now has to go on offense. we are in the moment to push. we have to stop talking about democracy being at stake and the campaign has to campaign like democracy is at stake.

joe biden has to show he is ready to go. it's not the name-calling of convicted felon but able to say this man is unfit and i am good to go. you've got to show that and not just tell it. >> state of the union energy. it's about the vibes i am hearing. i want to ask about your sub stack encouraging people not to be stressed. everyone should subscribe to it. it.

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