rather than cowering in the background. >> you don't know if he says that to alito's face because we don't know what the conversations are behind closed doors at the supreme court because so little is known about the deliberations of the supreme court. >> that's absolutely true, i don't know. maybe we can just say it seems highly unlikely given the way that alito has been acting that the chief has been calling him into the office and giving him a talking to. the chief knows how to do that. he's done it with the liberals sometimes when they get out of order during oral arguments. sometimes he'll shame them from the bench for being too aggressive. he has not been doing that with alito. if he is doing it, he needs to step it up. >> there's no evidence that alito can be reined in. i appreciate it. that's going to do it for me. "deadline white house" starts right now.

hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. president joe biden's sole surviving son hunter biden was convicted today on three felony counts related to possession of a gun while using narcotics. a delaware jury of his peers found hunter biden guilty of lying on a federal form while applying for a handgun, lying to a gun dealer and illegally possessing a firearm for 11 days in the year 2018. today's verdict marks the end of a painful chapter for the biden family with witness after witness detailing an incredibly troubled period in hunter biden's life, a time when he was addicted to crack cocaine, a time when he was in and out of rehab with a mountain of financial problems. several members of the biden family have attended court in support of hunter, including his sister, his wife and his mom, first lady dr. jill biden seen her walking out of court today with hunter after the verdict was read. hunter biden's defense had

denied that hunter had deliberately lied about his drug use when he filled out a federal form for a background check. they sought to poke holes in the doj's attempt to prove that he was an active drug user. the defense fell short today, but hunter biden's attorney said that they will pursue, quote, all legal challenges available. no sentencing date has been scheduled, and "the new york times" reports, quote, he could face up to 25 years in prison, but first time offenders who did not use their weapons to commit a violent crime typically receive no jail time. in a statement, president joe biden says this, quote, as i said last week, i am the president, but i am also a dad. jill and i love our son and we are so proud of the man he is today. so many families who have had loved ones battle addiction understand the feeling of pride seeing someone you love come out of the other side and be so strong and resilient in recovery. as i said last week, i will

accept the outcome of this case and will continue to respect the judicial process as hunter considers an appeal. jill and i will always be there for hunter and the rest of our family with our love and support. nothing will ever change that. so we start today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. former top prosecutors of the department of justice, msnbc legal analyst, angie weisman and cohost of msnbc's 2024 podcast, claire mccass skill is back. and joining us at the table, msnbc legal correspondent, lisa rubin. mike, i'll start with you. >> reporter: over the 17 years that i have covered president biden and his family, i have seen them come together to celebrate the greatest of triumphs, his selection as barack obama's running mate in 2008, elections, inaugurations,

primary nights in 2020 and ultimately his inauguration as president. but i've also seen them come together and have to in a very public way endure some of the hardest times together. i think back to the moment in 2015 when i was in the gallery of the statehouse here in delaware when then vice president biden, standing with his son hunter, received well wishers for over five hours at his son beau's casket side. today certainly doesn't compare to that, but it was really striking for me inside the courtroom, the moments after that guilty verdict came down, just to see the look of shock and, frankly, grief on the face of hunter biden's aunt who helped raise him after the death of his mother in 1972, in that accident that hunter was also critically injured in. his mother who couldn't even make it to the courthouse in time, the verdict came in and was announced so quickly, but went right to join her son in

the hold room. and then to see them come out together, to hold hands, to get in the car, and now president biden literally in the air as we speak making his way to join the family at this moment. it is something that i've been talking to people close to the president over the last few weeks that has really made this especially difficult for them, that they've had to now relive some of the most difficult times in their family, dating back to 2015 through 2018 when this gun was purchased in a very public way, in a way that may not have had to happen if joe biden had not run and been successful in winning the presidency. but now this is a family that will close ranks together, our colleague has been unparalleled in bringing us insight into his legal team as they've been going through this, sharing that he really told his team they have nothing to apologize for. he was so grateful for the love and support of his family, they had nothing to apologize for. the only moment he did choke up, when he talked about how much he

loved his parents and he loved his wife. this is a family that will now come together in this moment as they have through so many other trying times before and face what comes next. claire, some of my understanding of this is from mike memoli's extraordinary reporting, some my own. i know the decision to throw his hat into the ring to run for president, one of the hinge points was around -- not whether hunter biden's fight with the decision of addiction would be a political liability, but really whether the run and scrutiny would be damaging, would be something too hard for the family, too hard for hunter. this has to be, as a parent, the worst nightmare come true, and there's something about president joe biden's stoicism.

he has stoically supported and embraced and wrapped both arms around the rule of law and his son at the same time. i'm not sure it's a moment with a parallel in american presidential history. >> yeah, and what a contrast, first and foremost i think i need to state the obvious, and that is that joe and jill biden have been role models for parents of addicted children, them showing their love and support, even when it was difficult in many ways, never backing off their unconditional love, and having such pride in his recovery. and this is a story that's being told over and over again throughout this country, is now do families deal with addiction. how do they do the right things, how do they keep from doing the

wrong things, and, once again, the biden family has shown that they can be the kind of role model that makes one proud. you compare and contrast that, you have a first lady who is there for her son, even though it was very difficult and logistically difficult, especially, with here coming back and forth from france to be with him, but she was, despite his moral failings she was there, showing her support. that didn't happen when donald trump was in court on conduct that stemmed from his moral failings. melania was nowhere to be found, last seen existing trump tower with louis vuitton suitcases. it is quite a contrast. and i don't think this trial will help donald trump in any way, because it shows exactly what joe biden said after donald

trump's conviction, that we have to have faith in our judicial system, that no one is above the law, and that a jury of 12 ordinary people looks at facts, not political spin, and decides whether someone has broken the law. and the fact he's going to respect this verdict, even though he could wipe it out with the stroke of a pen, even though he could have kept it from happening with the stroke of a pen, tells america what they need to know about the man who occupies the oval office. >> andrew weissmann. >> i'm going to pick up with claire left off, because i don't think we have a greater example of who joe biden is than the combination, as you said, nicolle, the unique combination of the personal with the sort of political and the adherence to the rule of law.

if people could just step back for one moment and imagine that you as a parent, as a father, as a mother, have the power to get rid of the criminal problems that your child is facing, you have the power to order the department of justice to dismiss a federal case, you have the power to pardon that person. and just think how painful as a parent it is to watch that process go forward, but you know that what separates this country from an autocracy, from russia, from all these countries where there is no rule of law, it's why you went into government. it's why you do everything you do for 80 years on this planet. you have that principle guiding you, even in the face of what is such a devastating matter

personally. it's really hard to fathom what that family is going through. and to be clear, this is not just hunter biden. david weiss said these are consequences based on his own personal choices, that he engaged in this conduct. but that's not really what this issue is, because that's the small picture. the big picture as to why people should care is the combination of that personal tragedy and those personal decisions with how joe biden and his family are dealing with this, and the contrast is so clear in terms of decency and principle and transactional guidance in terms of how you view the world. it could not be starker and you're seeing sort of such a sad day on a personal level, you're

seeing such an uplifting day in terms of sort of heroic action in terms of what it means to live a principle. and that's what we're seeing. >> lisa, a lot of what i understand about what hunter biden's fight against addiction was like for the family, i understand from some of mike memoli's reporting and from some of hunter biden's own book and some reporting, i think someone at "the new york times" did a very long piece, and hunter biden has been, it seems, almost like a part of his recovery was to reveal the depths and the darkest moments. and most of what i understand to be his darkest hours as an addict are in his own words, but some of that became evidence used against him. explain. >> well, hunter biden wrote a book, a memoir about his struggle with addiction, and to

the extent the defense here, hunter biden didn't knowingly lie on a federal form when he applied to possess a gun because he was not at that point using drugs or viewed himself in the present tense as an addict, therefore he couldn't have committed the crime. the prosecution then used the book to say, hunter biden viewed himself as an addict throughout his life, addiction doesn't stop. if you are once an addict, you are always an addict. and part of recovery is understanding that trajectory, that but for the grace of god go you, if you are an addict and in recovery, you remain an addict and capable of falling prey to your addiction yet again. so in playing those excerpts from his book, they were trying to show, no, no, no, hunter biden's self-concept was perpetually as an addict. one of the things that struck me, in the trump trial we saw the former president's books

used against him, too. but rather than having those words being used, as you said, as a vehicle for recovery and contrition, those words are defensive, they're almost con -- and he talked about loyalty, revenge against those who had wronged you, micro manage your money and trust no one. that presents a stark contrast with what hunter biden was trying to achieve in his book. >> what happens next? >> sentencing, and we will then hear, through the sentencing process, what each side thinks is appropriate. these are crimes that could lead to a statutory maximum of ten years. no one that i know that you talk to, whether a former federal prosecutor or someone like me who just observes this, believes that ten years is what hunter biden will get. but his own contrition is a big

part of that. and he can both simultaneously appeal the conviction, and yet be contrite for the actions that he took while he was in the throes of addiction. it's not necessarily an either/or. and i think we're seeing sort of a master class in how you can advance your client's objectives within the framework of the rule of law without beingcontemptuous. >> we're stipulating that no one is questioning the facts or the jury's decision, but how did we get to this moment when a year ago it seemed like a trial might have been avoided? >> reporter: yeah, nicolle, i was standing right probably in this very spot just last summer when we were covering what we thought was going to be a plea agreement to take away that legal cloud that had been hanging over hunter biden for

most of the president's time in office so far. it was a deal that fell apart under the very tough questioning from the same judge who heard this case, and what was at issue was the question of whether the plea deal, which included not just the gun charge, which he was found guilty today, but the tax charges he's going to face in another trial in a matter of months on the west coast. whether that represented the end of the government's case, whether they were going to pursue any potential further charges related to maybe foreign lobbying. the defense team, abbe lowell and the prosecution had a different idea, but when you talk to people close to hunter biden, they believe that, if not for the pressure of the campaign that had been mounted on the part of some of the same republicans in congress, who today we are hearing talk about that sweetheart plea agreement, special counsel in this case, mr. weiss, might have not --

that deal may have held together. and so that, i think, there has been differences in terms of the legal strategy, that maybe the president and his advisers might have preferred his son to take versus what they ultimately decided to pursue. but if not for that pressure campaign, they do think that this all could have been avoided. >> claire, i want to share some of what you pulled the curtain back on, the split screen moment that's revealed in our politics. this is from "the new york times" reporting on conservative social media, the guilty verdict gets a yawn, right wing influencers have spent much of mr. biden's trial claiming without any evidence that the process was a sham in various ways, a trick by the justice department to appear balanced after former president donald trump was convicted in a manhattan courthouse or show trial, that would end in a not guilty verdict. trump is charged by new york state, not the justice department. they also claim without any proof that the trial was a

distraction from other crimes committed by mr. biden, they included the conspiracy theory that he profited from business dealings in ukraine with the help of his father. what mike memoli detailed, when the plea argument fell apart, so did the promise of further prosecutions. he could be under scrutiny for other things. and the conspiracy that the whole trial was a sham, it's just -- it's insane. >> yeah, is joe biden sitting in the oval office and saying -- i mean, think about what we know about president biden. does he pick up the phone and call merrick garland and says, yeah, let's just give him hunter, let's serve up my son. it's just so ridiculous. here is the thing, if there was evidence, we would know it by now. how many people have looked for evidence -- i mean, they've had this ridiculous impeachment committee that has been

searching for months on end for any evidence to show that somehow president biden was involved in some kind of business corruption. there's no evidence. and you know what trials have to have, nicolle -- the guys that spin these conspiracy theories, shame on them, they should lose their law licenses. you have to have evidence. you can't go to court without evidence. you get thrown out if you don't have evidence. and there was evidence here that hunter biden did not tell the truth on a form, which, by the way, the republicans are trying to challenge that form is even legal. they don't believe in this prosecution, they don't think anybody should be prosecuted for not telling the federal government something on a form when they buy a gun. so there was evidence here. and there was evidence in manhattan and that's what the two juries had in common. they looked at the evidence and applied the law. >> we have much more, also to

come, if united states supreme court facing historically low approval ratings among the general public, mired in ethics scandal after ethics scandal. there's actually more audio to play for you, this time from the wife of supreme court justice alito, who continues to reveal a radicalized grievance-filled culture warrior partisan world view. we'll play for you her defense of her fondness of flags, her threats against the media and others. and later in the broadcast, my friend and colleague rachel maddow joins us about the mental fitness and how we cover a convicted felon. we'll talk to her about the cult-like following of his republican party on that topic. she has an amazing new podcast season of the ultra series, and

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i can't speak for everyone, but i can speak for myself, like, it was very sad. not that he was being convicted of these crimes, but that his life had turned out the way it did. it was very sad and when haley

testified, that was -- for me, that was a very sad time because i did not know that she also got addicted to crack. i'm really sorry for that. president biden never really even came in to play for me, because his name was only brought up once during the trial. and that's when it kind of sunk in a little bit, wow, this is the sitting president's son who is on trial. and so that was -- yeah, that was kind of hard. >> that was one of the jurors in hunter biden's trial speaking out to our friends at cnn after the verdict earlier today describing what it was like to have to deal with these incredibly difficult and painful details of hunter biden's life. we're back with andrew, claire,

mike and lisa. andrew, your thoughts about what happens next. and because we've been leaning on you in this category, i'll ask you to answer legally and politically. >> well, legally i would note that there was no gag order in this case and you have jurors, at least one juror speaking out. that's in contrast to manhattan where you worry about the safety of the jurors. that's just one more way in which these two trials and the way the respect for the law or the lack thereof is being displayed here. it's also a testament to jurors, whether it's in manhattan or delaware, to doing their duty and putting aside favor and acting out of principle, which is something that americans do. we're not all transactional.

what happens next is that hunter biden, like anyone else, like the former president, will be sentenced. it will be interesting to see whether he is given jail time. but that is sort of the small picture. it is obviously incredibly important to him, but i think the next phase is really going to be an appeal that deals with the constitutionality of this particular set of statutes, as claire referenced. there's going to be odd bedfellows, to say the least, with hunter biden making a claim, which is his right, that these improperly in fringe on the second amendment. amy coney barrett, whether she was on the supreme court, had a lot of sympathy for that argument that these statutes have to be carefully scrutinized to make sure that they are not infringing on the second amendment right to bear arms.

so he will be making that argument and will have a lot of conservative support, even though, of course, they're not aligned with hunter biden's family politically. and then the political realm, to me, this is such a spotlight on this fundamental dichotomy between, on the one hand, seeing the rule of law, as well as decency and acting out of principle, where you have a father not taking steps out of respect for the rule of law, and you have people in congress saying, i think that's a sham and thinking that a father would use his own son for politics. i mean, the lack of decency and the lack of shame that somebody would make that argument when you were seeing somebody, which

must be an enormous personal cost to be going down that road. not that you get credit for acting out of principle, but you know that it must be so eating him up alive that people aren't recognizing that. to me, it's very similar to when paul pelosi was attacked and you had people joking about that, and so you have in this country people acting with decency and normalcy, and people who seem to be, to put it bluntly, sort of raised by wolves where you don't understand -- you don't understand where it can come from and you sort of hope that somehow the fever will break, that this country will get back to a place that represents the fundamental decency of americans. >> yeah, i mean, lisa, i guess my question for you, just on the pardon question, he answered a

question in an interview in france that he would not pardon his son. there are lingering questions and sort of an appetite to investigate whether the entire process was corrupted by donald trump. and then this idea andrew is getting at, this sort of deep irony that some of the appeal will be rooted in republican belief and republican challenges to the very law that allowed hunter to be prosecuted. >> it's even worse than that somehow, nicolle. we talk about joe biden has had two bites of the apple. he could have prevented the indictment. he didn't. he could have said he would pardon his son. he's indicated he wouldn't. there's a case percolating through the federal case of appeals about the constitutionality of the particular statute that necessitates the question on the gun form that hunter, according to a jury, knowingly falsified when he said he was not a user of or addicted to drugs. that case was appealed by whom?

by the solicitor general, it's the solicitor general of the united states who represents the biden administration, trying to make sure that that statute remains in effect. that's the same statute that necessitated and forces the question that hunter biden is said to have knowingly lied in response to. an indecent person would not take the steps that joe biden has, and yet his fundamental decency in this moment, in addition to so many others, is not being appropriately recognized. why? because so many of the people attacking him wouldn't know decency if it bit them in the you know where. >> andrew weissmann, claire mccaskill, mike memoli, thank you for covering this story. another jaw-dropping piece of video in their own words

involving the united states supreme court. this time justice alito's wife speaking very openly, bluntly, angrily about their family politics, what really bugs them, and who they have their sights set on. we'll play it for you next. (man) every time i needed a new phone, i had to switch carriers... (roommate) i told him...at verizon, everyone can get that iphone 15 on them. (man) now that i got a huge storage and battery upgrade... i'm officially done switching. (vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone.

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there has been a steady flow seemingly unending of news and new developments about supreme court justice samuel alito's

compromised ethics and open support and comfort with extreme far right causes. now newly released audio from progressive activist lauren windsor, known for approaching republicans and conservative activists and eliciting candid comments, reveals that the other half of the alito couple, martha-ann alito, very much shares her husband's grievances. nbc news has not been able to confirm whether edits might have been made to this audio, but we'll let you take a listen. >> i'm a huge fan of your husband. and everything that you're going through, i just want to tell you that, like, i -- >> it's okay, it's okay. >> it's not okay, though. it's not okay. >> it's okay, because if they come back to me. i'll get them. i'll going to be liberated and i'm gonna get them. >> what do you mean by they? >> there's a five-year defamation statute of

limitations. >> i don't know who you mean by they. >> the media. >> oh, okay. >> come on, come on, i'll get you. >> the voice is the voice of the wife of sitting supreme court justice samuel alito threatening the media, promising to, quote, get you, reporting factually on the open biases that she and her husband seem to have displayed. martha-ann did not stop there, expressing her desire to be able to openly express her hate for the lgbtq community. take a look. >> you know what i want? i want a sacred heart of jesus flag, because i have to look across the lagoon at the pride flag for the next month. >> exactly! >> and he's, like, oh, please don't put up a flag. i said, i won't do it because i'm deferring to you. but when you are free of this nonsense, i'm putting it up and i'm gonna send them a message every day, maybe every week, i'll be changing the flags. i made a flag in my head.

this is how i satisfy myself. i made a flag. it's white and it has yellow and orange flames around it. in the middle is the word vergogna, in italian, which means shame. >> it comes on the heels of audio of supreme court justice samuel alito talking about his belief in christian nationalism needing to win against the left. we should note nbc news has reached out to the alitos. joining us is lisa graves, the executive director of true north research and host of the podcast grave injustice. also joining us, msnbc legal analyst is back with us, a former criminal division deputy chief. she was with us yesterday when the first half of the audio was made public. i start with you. the cat is out of the bag. we know from mrs. alito that when it comes to the flags that

are hung, her belief is, quote, i'm deferring to you. so it blows out of the water samuel alito's cover story to shannon bream when he threw his wife under the bus when the first flag, just the upside down flag that was flown by january 6th insurrectionists, his story when "the new york times" published that photo in "the new york times" to jody canter with that scoop was to shannon bream of fox news and to say the flags were all mrs. alito's idea. but she told lauren windsor, quote, i'm deferring to you, talking about sam alito. >> i think a lot of the facts about the timeline also are facts that really should be looked at more closely. justice alito sent a letter to congress and, you know, said that at least one of the flags was being flown in response to a dispute with a neighbor and the

neighbor has come forward and said, well, look, that flag was being flown well before there was any dispute. so this should be investigated. we should be looking into this and we should be troubled. these words from mrs. alito, she is not a supreme court justice, but she lives with one. she should really think about spending less time flying flags and more time actually heeding what she claims to be her religion. she's a catholic. well, she should learn to maybe love thy neighbor and stop spewing this kind of hate. it's just so troubling to hear someone just have this kind of hate just for seeing someone flying a flag. it really tells you kind of where the level of our public discourse is in this country. >> it also tells you about the radicalization of the households that possess at least one of the human beings that make up the supreme court. i walk into 30 rock and it's pride month, and i don't think

twice and i feel good about seeing the flags on the plaza. and the idea that what justice alito's wife sees is something so odious to her, we shouldn't let that bigotry and hatred -- if that view prevails, if that view is normalized, we roll our country back 50 years. that view is odious and embodies another moment in time. it is not the world we live in today where marriage equality is the law of the land, where upward of 70% of americans believe it should be, where bigotry and bias and hatred toward same-sex marriage and same-sex couples was -- i think most people thought something they could look at as the past. not only is it the present, it is the cause, it is the thing that makes her stare across a lagoon and feel hatred. she has made up a new flag that

spells the word "shame" that she would like to fly. >> it really is extraordinary. and i think you put it beautifully, nicolle. these are signs of progress in our country that people can live and marry the person they love, that we can have equality respected. but here you have a supreme court justice's wife acting with such aggression and hostility, and it's not just that hostility toward the pride flag, but it is this unity with these flags that were flown by people challenging and trying to overturn the 2020 presidential election that were flown on january 6th as the capitol was attacked during the insurrection. so i think what you have is clearly under the federal recusal statute, he should recuse himself from any case involving january 6th under the statute. it applies to justices and it says when there's a reasonable belief that a justice will be

biased in their ruling, they shouldn't rule. and i would extend that beyond january 6th in terms of his role in rolling back our reproductive rights, and also it just -- i think it bears mentioning that justice thomas also should not be sitting on these january 6th cases. but, also, in that dobbs decision, he called out that next on the chopping block were basically gay rights and access to contraception. so these justices are certainly imposing their personal views, and both justice thomas and justice alito have engaged and acted with hostility toward people's fundamental rights of human dignity. and the flags are symbolic of that. i guess i would say that shame flag that mrs. alito designed in her head, in some ways i think that shame flag is flying over the u.s. supreme court right now, because that's what happened to this court, the corruption, the scandal is truly

shameful. >> it's such a good point. alito is already speaking in his own defense. i have to sneak in a quick break. this is alito's own words. today's decision will be used to vilify americans who are unwilling to ascent to the new orthodoxy. the majority compares traditional marriage laws to laws that deny equal treatment for african americans and women. the implications of this only gee will be exploited by those determined to stamp out every vestige of descent. i claim those who cling to beliefs will be able to whisper their thoughts in the recesses of their homes, but if they repeat those in public, they will risk being labeled as bigots. i suppose on that front, samuel alito might have been right. quick break for us. we'll be right back. the power . ♪ ♪

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tote bag as a thank you for your support. your small monthly donation of just $10 could be the reason a child in crisis survives. please call or go online to hungerstopsnow.org to help save lives today. we're back with lisa and christy. i can't get over lisa's image of the shame flag hanging over the supreme court. it will always be there in my head. we have more sound of mrs. martha-ann alito in her own words and she's talking about germans. i'll let it speak for itself. >> it makes me so angry. >> don't get angry. get even. >> they're persecuting you and you're a convenient stand in for anyone who's religious. >> look at me, i'm german.

i'm from germany. my heritage is german. you come after me, i'm giving it back to you. and there will be a way -- it doesn't have to be now, but there will be a way they will know. don't worry about it. god -- you read the bible, psa lm 27 is my psa lm. mine. psa lm 27, the lord is my god and my rock. of whom shall i be afraid? nobody. >> it doesn't have to be now, but there will be a way they will know. sounds like a threat. i don't know exactly who she's threatening and i don't know what the tie is to being german. it's just an extraordinary reveal of a paranoid and bitter world view that we've hypothesized about what size chip is on the shoulder of samuel alito. it's a martha-ann alito size

chip. there's no joy, there's no grace, there's no privilege, sitting for life on the united states supreme court, there's bitterness, anger, and a plan for delayed revenge. >> absolutely. you can hear the venom in her voice as she's speaking and her husband would do well to remind her of the first amendment, the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press. this idea of taking revenge against the media, why, because somebody has criticized her for her own words? it's really troubling. and i also think her citing to the bible and scripture, again, to what, to justify her need ju? it's so fetti. it is again a way of sort of owning religion in a way that i think really distorts and perverts what religion is. i think she has done that pretty much on every issue. again going become to the issue on homosexuality, if you look at

what pope francis said recently about homosexuality, we should have charity towards one another and homosexuality is not a sin. if she was somebody who cared about religion and love thy neighbor, she wouldn't be acting like this. i find it such an odd way to shift the conversation and religious values in a way that i think is really distorted and troubling for the public discourse. >> i would say it's more than a shift. it's a perversion. here is samuel alito on his view of freedom of speech. >> you can't say that marriage is a union between one man and one woman. until very recently, that's what the vast majority of americans thought. now it's considered bigotry. but this would happen after our decision in obergefell should not have come as a surprise.

yes, the opinion oe court included words meant to calm the fears of those who cling to traditional views on marriage, but i could see and so did the other justices in dissent where the decision would lead. i wrote the following. i assume that those who cling to old beliefs will be able to whisper their thoughts in the recesses of their homes, but if they repeat those views in public they will risk being labeled as bigots and treated as up by governments, employers, and schools. that is just what is coming to pass. one of the great challenges for the supreme court going forward will be to protect freedom of speech. although that freedom is falling out of favor in some circles, we need to do whatever we can to prevent it from becoming a second-tier constitutional right. >> you know, martha on line one, talking about getting revenge on the press, this is a per version of free speech.

equality is supported by 73 to 75% of all americans. based on most opinion polls. this perversion saying our speech is threatened is exactly how the far right animates and keeps angry a political base. it's not how we are accustomed to hearing one of nine united states supreme court justices speak. what does it say to you, lisa? >> well, i think when you listen to martha-ann alito's comments that lauren obtained, you see this person who seems so devoted to revenge and getting back at enemies. it's sort of on brand in a trumpian sort of way. it's really unfitting for the wife of a supreme court justice or a supreme court justice himself. i have not forgotten samuel alito's responses to obama's state of the union address. that's not all. samuel alito during his confirmation hearings before the senate judiciary committee when he was up for the supreme court nomination pledged was not going to impose his personal views

interest the bench, that that was inappropriate. now that there are trump appointees have joined alito and roberts and thomas on the bench, they are unlimited in their determination to impose their personal views. and to you have this really illiberal response by mrs. alito, but it reflects both object both she and her husband because he has taken this negotiation that people can impose their religious beliefs on others and deny them equal rights, that they have a right to do, when in fact i think most americans recognize it means respecting others to make their own choices for their own lives. and that also means honoring the fundamental promise of equality in our constitution. and when i think of freedom, i can think of few freedoms more intimate more personal than the right to marry the person you love. a church doesn't have to marry you. in civil society under civil law, a marriage for two adults who love each other should be

permitted is currently permitted by law. i believe that alito and thomas and other justices on that court are eager to take away those rights. so we are at the brink of a lot of destruction, not just from the dobbs decision but morm. i think the supreme court is on the ballot this november and it has to be because this court is not done unwriting our rights, putting its numb on the scale of justice in favor of donald trump and the right-wing agenda. >> it's so right to put it that way. and i think to go even further, that they are interested in unwinding and unraveling families, right? marriage equality is the law of the land and those families have children and are pillars of their communities and the idea this is where we are is truly extraordinary. lisa graves and kristy greenberg, it's a story we will stay on with both of your help. thank you for coming back for day two of the alito tapes.

we are grateful to you. we have another bit of evidence showing that justice aileen cannon for her part has no desire to speed things along in the classified documents case. we will tell about that cup date next. we will tell about that cup date next kayak. i like to do things myself. i do my own searching. it isn't efficient. use kayak. i can't trust anything else to do the job right. aaaaaaaahhhh! kayak. search one and done. -remember when i said we need to screen for colon cancer? -was that after i texted the age to screen was now 45? [both] because i said cologuard®! -hey there! -where did he come from? -yup, with me you can screen at home. just talk to your provider. [both] we'll screen with cologuard and do it my way. cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive.

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and restored using the power of dell ai. ♪ . the judge overseeing the classified documents criminal case against donald trump giving us another piece of evidence that fuels the belief that she seems willing to do the ex-president's legal bidding. judge aileen cannon decided to strike a paragraph from the indictment against donald trump on the grounds that it was not related to the actual criminal allegations in the case. the passage in question describes an incident where the ex-president waved around a classified map of afghanistan while criticizing the u.s. withdrawal in front of his now 2024 campaign chief who had no security clearance at the time. if the case goes to trial, prosecutors may still be able to introduce it into evidence. we should note a trial date has yet to be set by this judge. when we come back, my friend and

colleague rachel maddow joins us. we'll be right back. us we'll be right back. ♪ you need t-mobile... ♪ ♪ home internet with 5g. ♪ wait! t-mobile has home internet? ♪ what a feeling! ♪ ♪ to have t-mobile now! ♪

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the idea that there is an abstract rule of law or an abstract democracy that exists in the atmosphere and some day distantly in the future we might lose it, that's not how this goes. the rule of law is mortal, right? it can be killed. it is wounded when the people involved in the judicial system and the adjudication of alleged crimes are being threatened and harassed and intimidated and pressured out of their jobs for doing that work. >> hi there, everybody. it's 5:00. now in new york, the rule of law is mortal. dire threat. that is my colleague rachel maddow building up to an interview with fani willis. it will make sense why i played it. donald trump spent the last eight years doing everything in his power to strip from the american people their confidence in all of our institutions.

by his telling our elections are rigged, verdicts are rigged, everything is rigged. in the long term, these attacks have an overwhelmingly corrosive and dangerous effect on the very foundations and pillars of our democracy. again, the rule of law is under attack. it needs to be protected. heartening, seemed like maybe he he listening with when attorney general merrick garland submitted an op that served as a public warning. quote, unfounded attacks on the justice department must end. after ticking through conspiracy theories, falsehoods and threats of violence, garland exists acts could cause real harm to the donald jr. and the men and women who help carry its mission. it was reminiscent of what he told the hughes judiciary committee last week. >> certain members of this committee and oversight committee are seeking contempts-tempt as a means of

obtaining for no legitimate purpose. sensitive law enforcement information that could harm the integrity of future investigations. i will not be intimidated and the justice department will not be intimidated. >> these threats will not go away. they won't go away because of what he said. in fact, today proves anything, it's that even when the rule of law works out in a way that damages the current president, trump's political adversary could actually benefit trump politically. president biden's own son was convicted in a court of law. many elements of the far right still insist that there is some conspiracy at plate, it's all a sham. it's still rigged. again, rachel's warning, the rule of law is mortal and now it is up u up to all of us to protect it. it's where we start with our friend and colleague the host of the rachel maddow show on msnbc, the host of the podcast ultra.

the secondary season premiered yesterday. the first episode is available with much more to come. we will get to that in a minute. rachel, such a heavy news cycle. your thoughts? >> well, i think that if the biden administration has weaponized the legal system of this country to only ever go after republicans and conservatives and never go after democrats, i think today proves that they are doing an absolutely terrible job of that. boy, have they -- are they falling down on the job, allowing the president's son not only to be prosecuted, but convicted and then somehow manipulating president joe biden into saying i respect the rule of law. no, i'm not pardoning my son. he may appeal, but we support i him and respect the jury's verdict. that's not what you would expect. we have bob menendez on trial,

democratic senator. a democratic congressman who is criminally indicted and going on trial. the important thing about this is that is givers lie to the republican critique, to the trump screed that there is something about the justice system that is skewed against them and is designed to help democrats. i think we know in our heads that that hasn't been a good faith critique, but a day like today should disprove, right? if they were arguing on a rational basis, that was based on facts. it's not based on facts. is just designed as an attack against the american system of government because they are running against the american system of government. and it is really not about the facts of any individual case, including those against trump. >> i mean, i think that my habit that i'm determined to break in this election cycle is to stop

looking for the circuit breaker or the thing that breaks the fever. i immediately go to conservative media to see do they believe the rule of law is a real thing, and not what you just described, and it didn't, and i was disappointed again and i want to stop asking the wrong questions and i feel like so much of what we have to get right this time because way too much is on the line the question isn't, did some on the right finally become persuaded the rule of law a real thing? we have to protect it, it treats everyone fairly, joe biden stood by as his son was convicted by a jury of peers and said he won't pardon him. the question is, was it all a projection, right? i wonder what you think, what you take from this, that there is no equivalence, no need to seek out symmetry because the right isn't asking the same questions. they are not having the same conversation. >> yeah, there is a reason that,

you know, that donald trump and supporters of trump have been immune to fact-checking over the past five to eight years, nine years, i guess now. it's because they are not -- they don't care with being wrong, right? this isn't a fact-based appeal that they are making to people. they are trying to make you feel like america is in an emergency, that america is under existential attack from evil people who must be destroyed by any means necessary. there is an enemy within and we are in such dire straits as a country, we need to get rid of the government, the process e the people having a say, the safeguards and checks and balances and instead just have somebody who will slay the demon, have somebody who is going to vanquish our enemies once and for all. and if you're going to make that kind of a case, you're not making it based on the observable facts in the world where you're horrified if you are found to be wrong and then you correct it or new facts

arrive that disprove what you were saying and so you course correct. it's not about the fact of what they are asserting. it's about the fight. they want the fight. and so it puts, you know, those of us who are sort of still living in a reason-based world at a disadvantage because you can't bring reason to a fight with somebody who is not actually trying to rationally persuade you. they are just trying to upset you. i still think that's what we have to do, right? i mean, i don't think we should expect the trumpian right and the trumpian republican party to be persuaded by new facts. but we should continue to report and describe and contextualize responsibly the actual facts of the world in the hopes that the crazy-making conspiratorial fact-free stuff they are selling will ultimately have fewer buyers in the larger public. you can't move mike johnson, you can't move kash patel, laura

trump, whatever her name is, not moving these people with rational argument let alone trump himself. maybe somebody who doesn't pay attention to that much politics will hear the facts from you and from responsible news -- from news organizations and they'll recognize what they are trying to sell is a bunch of bunk an maybe they won't vote for it. it's unromantic, but that's the task. like, stay whetted to the truth, keep confronting them and contradicting them when they are wrong and pointing out true things, and believe the best of our fellow citizens. >> how did does that inform how you are going to cover or thinking about the next five months, the general election, which is literally upon us? >> yeah. well, two things. one is that i think we all need a lot of energy and stamina and we need to take care of ourselves. i mean that in a way that sounds a little woo-woo, i know, but i

think five months is both urgent, a five-month timeline is urgent, meaning we are already in the middle of it, and long enough we can't exhaust ourselves and get tired and sick and worn out now. we need have a lot of energy, marshall our strength, work together, not get distracted by petty bs and tactics designed to turn us against one another. particularly in the press, all of the usual competitiveness in the press at this point has to be low priority and what we need to focus on is doing our best work and supporting our colleagues in the process. they are attacked by the right. so that's some of it. but i also think, nicolle, you know, that we need to stop talking about this as a threat that's going to arrive. you know, that the bad thing might start happening if the election goes x way. the bad thing is here. the attacks on the legal system,

the attacks on the election and our electoral system, those things are here. we are living with that now. the time to defend those things is now. it's not november. it's now. because now is when the damage is being done. >> you know, i had george stephanopoulos on. i said, you know, i was watted. it's a tactic that terrify you, right, because people come to your house and your family lives there. and we talked about doxing. there is so much that people don't surface, right? the tactics that everyone on earth one in a fact-finding position, many of the folks we have on tv, former law enforcement, former prosecutors, you ask two questions, scratch a little bit and realize that everybody is under threat, everybody who writes a story has either been doxxed or swatted or threatened to be those things. people that cover the trump

story live differently than eight years ago. the story is different. trump is also different. >> i think our network has been committed. to it's a reason why there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution to these things. one of the things i tried starting -- started trying to do is i tried to read the closed-captioning auto generated transcripts of trump's speeches. i don't think we should be carrying them live.

it's knowing what he is saying. and it's worth conveying that when it is something -- when it's something dangerous, when it's new, when it's news-making and when it is nonsense. and trump shark sinking boat battery thing was notable because it was complete gibberish. it's not the first time he has done it. and contextually, the people in the room had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. the fact that he chose to make this digression in land-locked las vegas telling people about the risk of sharks, like, where are the las vegas, sharks? are there fresh water sharks? are they in the fountains in las vegas? arks are they in the fountains in las vegas?

>> i guess i ask because, to your --

he speaks in ways that are -- i think it would be shocking to public if people could stand to listen to him longer than they do and news

broadcasts could broad cost him more than we to. we responsibly can't often because of the lies and threats he is floating. the other part is the way the trump movement works. like he is now getting push back for the time 'afraid of boats and batteries and electrocution and sharks things. what is going to happen if past is prologue, is that the republican party, trump is going to keep repeating. he is going to double down on the --

>> protect civil rights and continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ter a quick b. don't go anywhere.

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we are back. this is our programming highlight of the week. it's extended conversation with my friend and colleague rachel maddow. the second season of her tremendous podcast ultra is out now. it's already number one on the apple podcast chart. i get to brag for you and about you. it is an urgently necessary and important and timely deep dive into our own country's past, recent past, and what happens to american democracy when the fringe on the ultra right is intertwined with mainstream politics and real political power. listen. >> they were laying the

groundwork for a political party that in the best of all worlds would win an election, then destroy democracy after they had won that election, or if they had to, they would pick up arms. >> when elected officials have no qualms about flirting with fascists for their own political gain. >> he wasn't going to stop any group that supported him, even if they were heiling hitler. >> pushing american democracy to the brink. >> he was not bound by the truth or by facts. he would say anything at any time, lies and misinformation and conspiracy theories. if you tell a lie that's big enough and you tell it often enough, people will believe it. >> i know that trump doesn't read history, but he is certainly acting with some intrinsic muscle memory of some elements of this chapter. >> hearing you put in context

like that actually makes me hear a little bit differently. you know, 75 years down the road from this story that i am looking at it looks like it's following the contours of today's news. we recurrently have had problems in the country where we had rising authoritarian movements led by demagogues, waging war not just on their political enemies, but on the american system of government, often with creepy connections to fascist and authoritarian leaders abroad. this is not something that has only happened once in u.s. history. it's happened a few times in u.s. history. and the thing that is, i mean, something terrible about that, why does this keep happening? on the other hand, it does mean that we have these wells that we can go back to in terms of learning why in previous instances those things didn't go as -- didn't end up as bad as they could have.

they didn't go totally off the cliff. the people, the americans, mostly forgotten americans who are fighting against those things in their time, those americans knew what they were doing, and were good at it, and tried out a lot of different tactics, some of which they paid dearly for, but worked to effectively safe the country. and i keep telling these stories because i want more things to go look up, i want more things to draw on now in 2024 in terms of what works, what's a good tactic, what's a good strategy. >> well, i want to ask you what works first and then i want to ask you -- i mean, i want to ask you to tell the story of lester hunt. first what works and then we will play a little bit of lester. >> okay. in terms of what works, it's actually some of what we have been talking about. those here today, nicolle, and also you and i over the last few months, there is a certain relentlessness that is needed on

earth one in terms of sticking up for the truth, and in policing these systems that we've got to hold people accountable for trying to overthrow the system, trying to overthrow the american government, committing crimes of violence and other crimes that attack our country at the foundations. we should have been more ready as a country for the attacks on faniillas, turkish james, alvin bragg, the attacks on jack smith, the judges involved in these cases. we should have known about the pressure that trump as president in his first term would have brought to bear on prosecutor's offices like the d.c. u.s. attorney's office, which he effectively dismantled. like fdny, the dismantling of the hush money case ultimately led all of these years later to the nyda, the alvin bragg prosecution. but at the new york state level,

not the federal level. we should have been expecting those perversions. rule of law and been more on guard to protect the people whose job it is to enact it. and until -- i think i totally know this history better, until we get clear on it, we won't have those instincts and we need to have done that work already. >> to that point, you know, your -- i mean, on monday -- mondays are so important and the way you articulated the need to protect the rule of law, it reaches back further, right? robert mueller needed to be protected. they have appeared on our air. their reputations were destroyed by trump personally. not because of separate facts of each of their stories of their brushes with trump, trumpism, the trump campaign of 2016, but because they threatened him fundamental. we on earth one cover the facts.

the asymmetry is so stark because comey, andy mccabe, totally different stories, every one in some way at some point threatened trump so he sought to destroy them. and it is interesting that the asymmetry -- in trump world, they are all enemies, they are on that list to prosecute day one had he comes back and part of what animates them. and the idea that if you are for the rule of law, we all have sort of a stake in protecting the people that sought to simply find out if his campaign was in cahoots with russia. >> i mean, the basic idea of our democratic system is that it's -- you don't guarantee any individual outcome in a democratic system. you guarantee fair processes, right. you guarantee people's rights and your rights protect you from encroachment from the government and this treatment. eights fair process. that's it. that's what democracy is. if we are going to get rid of that because instead we want

certain outcomes and we want an unencumbered strong man leader who can just get those outcomes and get everybody out of his way, there is a certain number of people who think, okay, that will be efficient and we will get some stuff done and maybe my enemies will be the first ones that will be smited by this strong man leader when we take away our protections that the democracy affords us. it doesn't stay confined to the people you are comfortable being mistreated, never stays confined to main brand liberals or individual people in the justice system who have foulen afoul of what he wanted to do that maybe implicated him in criminal activity. it's never just the people you are comfortable being on the blunt end -- or sharp end, right? it's once you have given someone power, you with taken away the protections that democracy affords. then everybody is fair game. and ultimately everybody is targeted, right? no citizen other than the tight

oligarchy at the top and the family of the leader are the ones who actually benefit in any sort of long run from a strong man form of government. that's why everybody in a dictatorship everywhere in the world wants to come here. >> let me play a little bit of this story of lester hunt. >> it would be instructive for the country because the mystery of lester hunt's death and what was really going on in his life in the lead-up to that day, it would soon start to spool out in ways that were revealing about something that was going quite wrong in the united states. in many ways, the die was cast for lester hunt the minute he got to washington, from the very first assignment that he took as a sitting senator. >> tell me, as a member of the armed services -- >> by the end, lester hunt's rifle would not be the only gun at the u.s. capitol. and an extreme political faction

would be maneuvering to get someone absolutely unthinkable into the white house. into the presidency. >> one the most controversial figures ever to appear on this nation's political stage. >> tension is so palpable. i think everyone will go listen to the whole episode. it's amazing. tell me who is lester hunt? >> lester hunt was a senator from wyoming. he was a very well liked political figure in his state. he was the most popular figure in the state, even though wyoming, even in his day, was a very republican state and he was a democrat. and this story ultimately comes out of him locking horns with another united states senator. there is a foreign influence operation that ns in the u.s. senate not long after the end of world war ii, and it's just flat-out lie, it's propaganda from a foreign country, they are trying to mess with the united states, they are trying to advance their own aims, and there is a senator in the u.s. senate who falls for it

and who advances it and lester hunt locks horns with him and is horrified by what the senator is doing and decides to oppose him. one of the human factors here is that it turns out him and that other senator, their backyards back up to one another and they can see into one another's homes. so they learn about thousand they are living and that feeds it. but that confrontation where hunt stangds up for the country and stands up against this demagogue advancing this really terrible propaganda operation ends up being a real crucible in terms of what it means to be brave in the country and what happens when they stand up against people who have dom goingic power. it's a dark story but an incredibly dramatic and heroic story, too. >> i am glad -- you get -- you feel there is humanity, right? the good guys and the bad guys.

>> right. and getting to sit next to you as we tell some of these dark stories that are happening now together, it is so amazing to see sort of your deep understanding of this period in history. it's amazing. i am so glad the season's out. thank you for taking your time to talk to us about it. >> thank you, nicolle. thank you, thank you. really appreciate it. >> episode one of ultra is out right now. when we come back, president joe biden with a warning about the spector of racism in our country and the growing threat to african american history and american civil rights. a promise joe biden made at the white house last night. we will tell you about it next. t weil wl tell you about it next m) ew. gotta get rid of this. ♪tell me why♪ because it stinks. ♪have you tried downy rinse and refresh♪ it helps remove odors 3x better than detergent alone. it worked guys! ♪yeahhhh♪ downy rinse and refresh. ♪ you need t-mobile... ♪ ♪ home internet with 5g. ♪

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a day to remind us, we have a hell of a lot more work to do. the words used by president joe biden as he characterized juneteenth in a speech following a concert on the white house south lawn last night honoring the holiday that marks the end of slavery in america. president biden established juneteenth back in 2021. last night, "the new york times" reports this. quote, the celebration comes as the administration has made an aggressive push before the november election to promote its victories to the black community that mr. biden seeks to retain support among that critical voting block. he spoke bluntly but with hope about tackling racism in america. watch. >> let's be clear.

they are all ghosts and -- trying to take us back. taking away your -- making it harder for black people to vote. have your vote counted. close these doors of opportunity. attacking the value of diversity, equity, inclusion. not just about the past. it's about our future. it's whether that future is a future for all of us, not just for some of us. folks, black history is american history. [ cheers and applause ] >> that's right. kamala and i are always uplifted and protected. >> joining our coverage, former chairman, co-host of the weekend and former president of the conference on civil rights. i want to get you in on the breaking news today. the conversation, rachel and i were just having, you know, drew

weissman describes it, michael steele, embodiment of the contrast in the treatment of the rule of law, right, an ex-president disdainful of the rule of law, he sicced his sort of political followers on everyone that threatens him lately and told his supporters that essentially they are human shields to exact his retribution and a current american president with the power to pardon especially, especially his own son, whose standing back and supporting and loving his son but letting rule of law run its course. your thoughts about that? >> well, when you crime the way trump crimes, of course, you look at the system from a very aggressive perspective. there are enemies around every corner. there are those who are persecuting you, so frt. that distortion of what our criminal justice system is about in the first instance speaks to

how personal this is for trump. and while the president, biden is, obviously, impacted by a very personal story, family story with his son, he recognizes that, guess what? no one is above the law. and this matter was placed before a jury of hunter's peers, and they decided that he was guilty of the crimes charged. and the president i think rightly stood back from that, but the dad leaned in and expressed his love and concern for his son, who by now is well accounted in terms of his drug history and his dependency and those issues, those demons that he had to deal with. and so in so many levels, nicolle, if people just take off the glasses that fog their eyes

in our politics and keep them clear, what they see is those very clear lines. and they see a man who understands where the bright line is between the love and concern for his son and the responsibility he has as a president. donald trump, there are no such lines. and for him, it's all about how you save my behind. and for those who come after me, i come after you, and in the process if i can fix the game, i will, and if i can get myself off the hook, i will. and that's a very different story for the american people to judge as they watch these two narratives play out. >> on the political side, republicans have always bet that hunter biden's struggles with a disease of addiction would become a political liability for biden and there is an election in five months. i suppose we will have an answer

to that. it hasn't been the case at this point. and one of the reasons why is because if your family isn't touched in some way by addiction, if you don't know a parent who drove a kid around all night to get into rehab in the morning or asked to hold their gun for six hours until -- i mean, if you don't know someone who has lived that, someone who has just been grateful in the morning that their son or daughter is still alive, then you're lucky, right? i don't begrudge you if you don't know that experience. i envy you. most american families -- of course, christie, you know, the republican primary a gazillion years ago he gave voice to this and this is unautoversal, unfortunately. but what the jurors expressed was the sadness of this story and the sadness of having to, you know, rule on the facts but of having to hear this story about hunter biden's life. i wonder what your thoughts are

in sort of the political fabric of our country of how people experience today's verdict. >> yeah. i think you're absolutely right, nicolle, that, you know, this notion that people don't understand that addiction is a mental illness and we actually need to create a whole lot more treatment opportunities for people. and in in case, hunter biden, obviously, being from a well to do he willtively speaking, it demonstrated and showed, one, despite his power and in spite the power of his father, that he was not above the law. but that at the same time, and something we've been pushing at the leadership conference and the civil rights community is how do we treat people who need help versus criminalizing people because they need help.

and this exactly that example. and one of the things that i hope that we can use to impress upon the biden administration is that a better way of creating public safety is to ensure that people can get the help they need. you know, and guess and what? hunter biden also deserves the help he needs. in this case, i think michael steele is right. the question is, what does power do in the face of people who need help and what does power do in the face of wanting to hold on to power? and in this case what we have seen is a president who has said, i recognize the limits to my power and i'm going to broke effect the public by staying within the bounds, coloring within the line, but i am still going to be a dad and i think what we want in office and should be asking in offers of any elected is let's all consider people who need support and help for mental illness,

including drug addiction, get the health care they need to get healthy. >> i want to get you on the big news of last night. i want to show both of you what vice president kamala harris had to say because it's been past -- i have to sneak in a break first. stay with us. we'll be right back. t. stay with us we'll be right back. ome, so that means lots of video calls. i see myself more and i definitely see those deeper lines. i'm still kim and i got botox® cosmetic. i wanted to keep the expressions that i would normally have, you know, you're on camera and the only person they can look at is you. i was really happy with the results. i look like me just with fewer lines. botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet, and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life-threatening condition. do not receive botox® cosmetic if you have a skin infection. side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow, eyelid drooping and eyelid swelling.

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[ applause ] as roy mentioned, we also passed the first major gun safety law in nearly 30 years. we appointed the first black woman to sit on the highest court in our land. her name is justice jackson. and all this is to say with the support of the leaders here and so many, we have made real progress. >> back with michael and maya. these are the receipts. this is the important part of the campaign i wonder what you think, you know, it's five months out, what do you think it added to this, to really make sure that the entire winning coalition and especially -- i mean, black women were so decisive in president joe biden's primary and general election victory, important part of the coalition.

what is the rest of the story that the president and vice president need to tell? >> well, the rest of the story is connecting all of those successes to what people feel it in the moment. and so there is that disconnect. they look and they hear, you know, unemployment numbers are low and employment numbers are high, wage numbers are high, inflation is down, gas pedals are down, folks are actually going on vacations this summer. all of these things are happening. there is still this disconnect in so many ways for so many people. so if you are talking about, you know, a black family, a white family, hispanic family, an american family, then you have to talk about it in the real terms that they are experiencing. i had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine who said, when i asked, how are things going? he said, i'm great, but my neighbor isn't.

>> yeah. >> and so even while people may be themselves doing okay, they are looking around at their neighborhood and their community and their friends and families and they are still seeing pinch. people being pinched in one aor another. i think a broader conversation, connecting that success to what tomorrow will look like for that black mother of two raising kids by herself or, you know, an intact family in the suburbs or, you know, a lesbian or a gay family in the inner city, connecting those dots for them i think is important, the important piece that has been missing for some time, and voters lose patience with that, nicolle, as you know. at is certain point they go, you got nothing, so i'm moving on. >> maya, what is your advice for the president and vice president as they try to connect these

dots in michael's words? >> yeah, i think michael is right about connecting dots. but i think at this stage it's critically important for people to hear what you are going to do next that's going to have a direct impact on their life. i mean, i just literally had a ride with a cab driver, a black man right here not far from the capitol behind me, who said, tell me why i should vote when he found out what i do for a living. and i told him it's about our power. it's about our ability to demand that leaders do what we need done for our communities. and his response was, but i haven't seen much for that. tell folks what you are going to do about health care. tell folks what you are going to do about jobs. tell them now. by the way, pass regulations to bring more housing to you. people need to hear it. >> and they need to hear the specifics. something you have been talking about for many months. maya and michael, thank you for

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bent finger appointment in 30 minutes. you got this. one - remember, i don't want surgery for my dupuytren's contracture. two - i don't want to wait for my contracture to get worse. three - i want a treatment with minimal downtime. four - i want a nonsurgical treatment. good boy. and five... and if nonsurgical treatment isn't offered? i'll get a second opinion. let's go! take charge of your treatment. if you can't lay your hand flat, visit findahandspecialist.com to get started. . good rule of law news to tell you about. nbc news learned the manhattan district attorney alvin bragg will voluntarily appear before the judiciary committee last month. he will likely be grilled by donald trump's allies in congress over his successful prosecution of the president last month. this from bragg's spokesperson,

quote, the manhattan d.a.'s office is proud to play a crucial role in upholding and enforcing the rule of law for the people of new york. it undermines the rule of law to spread dangerous misinformation, baseless claims and conspiracy theories following the jury's return of a full felony conviction in the people versus donald trump. nonetheless, we respect our government institutions and plan to appear voluntarily before the subcommittee after sentencing. bragg along with manhattan prosecutor michael colangelo will appear before congress july 12, just one day after trump is scheduled to be sentenced in new york. another break for us. we'll be right back.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> hi. thanks so much. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. while june can be slow in june, there is a ritual recurring