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tv   Alex Wagner Tonight  MSNBC  June 13, 2024 9:00pm-10:00pm PDT

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now that my secret is known, i will forever rest in peace. it is one last act of bravery for colonel ryan. and that takes us off the air tonight. and on that solemn note, i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i'll see you at the end of tomorrow. you at the end of tomorrow today donald trump made his first visit to capitol hill since he was president, his first time on the hill since his followers ransacked the capitol on january 6th. but to understand why trump chose to come back now after more than three years away, you don't have to look as far back as the insurrection. you just have to remember what trump has been asking congress to do since his criminal
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conviction two weeks ago. the day after trump was convicted of 34 felony counts in his new york hush money case, eight republican senators vowed to oppose all biden nominees and all democratic legislation as retribution. today six republican senators led by trump vice presidential short lister j.d. vance put the oppose all biden nominees part of that vow into writing. senators explained that they would block nominees, including anyone who has suggested the trump prosecutions were reasonable, anyone who endorsed trump's guilt, anyone who supported organizations that celebrated the indictment of donald trump, and anyone who supported manhattan district attorney alvin bragg or supported lawfare or censorship in other way, which is just vague enough to include basically anyone president biden has nominated. now, these republican senators say that their blockade will
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last until election day. and in practical terms, that means the u.s. government will not be able to appoint representatives to things like the u.n. general assembly or the world health organization or even to the not particularly political seeming places like the international civil aviation organization and the public buildings reform board. what exactly did any of those organizations have to do with prosecuting donald trump? nothing. this isn't about policy. it is about retribution. you might remember that last year senator tommy tuberville pulled a similar sort of stunt. tuberville became the first u.s. senator in history to do a long-term blockade of u.s. military appointments. senator tuberville kept more than 400 qualified u.s. service members, 400, from being appointed or promoted for ten months all because of a department of defense abortion policy that had nothing to do
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with those service members. the blockade was such a blatant misuse of power it wasn't just democrats who were appalled by this. here were some of tuberville's fellow republican senators on month nine of his stunt. >> no matter whether you believe it or not, senator tuberville, this is doing great damage to our military. >> this power is extraordinary that we're gwynn as individual senators, but it's incumbent upon us to use it in a reasonable way. >> everybody uses holds, i certainly use holds, but the key is you put a hold on someone who typically has some kind of control over the issue that you're trying to fix. >> there's not one senator in here that could not find a reason to object to an administration policy in the military, none of us. we could all find something. i just hope we don't do this routinely. >> i just hope we don't do this routinely. does two times count as a
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routine? because if so, this makes it a routine. and this time it isn't even about a policy disagreement, however tangential, it's just so republicans can protest donald trump being found guilty by a jury of his peers. today we also saw 29 republican senators sign on to this letter disparaging the rule of law and saying that trump's conviction was nothing short of the evisceration of the american judicial process. so it is safe to say that from now until november the u.s. senate is effectively going to be at a standstill and unable to govern. not because of policy disagreements but so republicans can perform an act of retribution on donald trump's behalf. as for the house, where republicans actually hold the majority, well, things are looking even worse. politico is out with new reporting today saying that in the days after trump's conviction, trump made an f-bomb filled call to speaker of the house mike johnson. trump's message to johnson,we
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have to overturn this. and now a few weeks after that call, it looks like speaker johnson's mission is not just to grind the government to a halt like his republican colleagues in the senate, it is to actually use the power of the government to try and make trump's criminal concerns go away. by way of an example, yesterday house republican leaders spent the day whipping votes for a bill that would allow presidents charged at the state level to move those cases to federal court. let me just check my notes here, how many presidents have been criminally charged at the state level again? oh, only one. what an interesting use of congressional power. politico also reports that speaker johnson is in talks with house judiciary committee chairman jim jordan about using the appropriations process to target special counsel jack smith and to defund his investigation. now neither of those have the votes to pass yet, but that is the kind of stuff that
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republicans in congress are working on right now, which really helps put into context why donald trump went back to capitol hill today. it wasn't for any legitimate legislative concern, it was for what republican congressman matt gaetz called a pep rally for president trump. a pep rally complete with an early birthday party for donald trump himself. >> let me make a wish. and i can't say what the wish is, but it'll have something to do with this room. >> joining me now are dahlia lithwick, who covers the court, and phillip bump, columnist for "the washington post". phillip, the birthday cake, pardon the like culinary metaphor, but really is the icing on the proverbial cake of
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fealty, is that even a metaphor? are you surprised that the pledges of allegiance, as they are, are so explicit, so undisguised on capitol hill? >> i'm not surprised by it, right? i mean, this is something we've seen for years now. watching that package, the thing that struck me is the republicans are a little bit like parents on an airplane with a crying child, right? they have this source of noise and frustration, and everyone's sick of it and there's nothing they can do with it. they're stuck on this plane, they've got to figure out how to calm this kid down. and the kid here, of course, is donald trump. he's mad about having been convicted. he's mad about the fact he's not in power currently. don't worry, i'll talk to the supreme court. they're doing everything to keep him happy, to keep him quiet, keep him on their side, and most importantly, to keep him from lashing out at them. that's what you see with this demonstration with the house, the senate. they're all trying to keep him happy, quiet, and get through this until november. >> it is like parenthood.
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they're terrified of him and they adore him. he's the enter of their universe, and they can't control him at all and must cater to his every whim. i do wonder though, dahlia, as you see the republicans in the house and senate just openly trying to undermine the rule of law, does it not just throw out the notion of the justice system in america as we watch the legislative branch do this work? >> yeah, i think that's a feature not a bug, right? i mean, i think that we are seeing a systemized attack on the rule of law. i think even if we hadn't;t had the conviction in the new york trial we've seen a longstanding set of attacks on judge, on juries, on, you know, prosecutors, on witnesses. i mean, i think the whole site geist here -- and it's not a surprise, this is a classic
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authoritarian play, is just ferment doubt in institutions. and if you ferment enough doubt in institutions, people start to look really longingly at the strong man who's going to save them when institutions crumble. so no part of this is new or unfamiliar. i think what's interesting is seeing a lot of republicans who might have at one point, you know, felt hinky about donald trump but stood fast on the principle that judges and juries and statutes in the constitution actually have force and meaning. the degree to which they have abandoned that and see no value in that i think is the part that is new and chilling. >> yeah, i mean, to that point, philip, the idea they're going to withhold nominations across the government, right, the tuberville blockade wasn't great politics the for gop, and yet they survived it and they're replicating it. on a different level, it's not the u.s. military, and the w.h.o. and u.n. are not
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favorites of the republican party, but nonetheless, they're stymying the basic work of governance, and they think it's good politics for them? >> yeah, i think they do think it's good politics from the standpoint that the republican party's political focus at this point is retribution against joe biden and putting a middle finger up in the face of the elites. that's what they're focused on. mitch mcconnell doesn't wake up in the morning and say that's what he's going to do, but he understands that's what the base is doing. it's not only tuberville, it's mitch mcconnell in 2016 holding open the supreme court seat. we have seen this in the past from the rep party, and it is very anti-institutional, but it is fundamentally about sending a message to the american public that d.c. doesn't do what it's supposed to do, and we need to get trump in there to bring these cads to heel -- >> to make us do our work again. >> right, right, right. but you know, that is the singular focus, at least from now until election night. >> i do think, you know, republicans are betting that their electorate won't punish
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them for this and that the broader american electorate, dalia, isn't tuned in this. this is part of the swamp, part of the dysfunction of the capitol, and you make a really important point in one of your pieces for slate this week about our normalcy bias, right? americans have a normalcy bias. it leads them to believe anyone who tells them that everything is awesome and that a system is holding, it leads them to believe -- even as that system is hanging together by way of dental floss. you're talking about the system of justice here, but i think it's extended even to our dysfunctional government. people, because it still exist, because there's still a congress that occasionally passes law, people can sort of deride dysfunction nalty, but they don't think u.s. democracy is in danger of falling apart in the same way they hold up trump's criminal conviction as an example, our justice system does work. things aren't normal right now, dal ya, things are very, very
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abnormal. i wonder if you can talk about your level of panic in this moment. >> i try not to use the word panic, because it makes my parents super scared, alex, but i guess i would just say think about where we were in 2016, what was deemed disqualifying in that race. and think about the fact that in the intervening time we have civil conviction -- civil juries finding trump guilty of being a sexual abuser. we have these 34 felony convictions. we have january 6th. we have donald trump, who ran in 2016, we forget in the fog of memory, but as a family man, as a businessman who was going to, you know, drain the swamp. now he's just running as a straight up autocrat. he's running under the banner of violence of suppression of right, of suppression of speech,
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of deporting immigrants. it is really scary, and it seems people are less dialled up now than they were in 2016, when they were like that access hollywood tape sounds pretty bad. now every single day you get this drum beat of what i think is really distressing, distressing, you know, saying sort of the quiet parts loud about wanting to create a sort of authoritarian state, and i think that we've just normalized it because we just super have to get to cvs to raise our prescriptions, and we're raising our kids and we're tired. i think this normalcy bias allows us to wait until some adult says break the glass. i don't know when break the glass happen, alex, but i think that what we have metabolized as normal is deeply frightening. >> philip, you write about the way in which republicans were incensed -- pre-incensed about the trump conviction. democrats were not pre-incensed
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about hunter biden's conviction. republicans are up in arms, and democrats are largely accepting of the hunter biden conviction. i find a number particularly stallering around all of this is the number of people that knowledge that the donald trump conviction was the right call, it's not moving them at all in their support for trump, right? this is new monmouth polling out today. do you agree or disagree with the jury's verdict finding trump guilty? 47% agree, 34% disagree. and then you look at the numbers of people who were definitely or probably supporting each candidate. biden, 43%, trump, 44%. the numbers are not moving even in the face of people saying this was the right thing. >> it tell mess two things. we should have expected this, something like a fifth of trump supporters thought he committed a crime. they were already sold, he
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committed a crime, we're going to vote for him anyway. the second thing is donald trump did an effective job of inoculating his base against this. and it's not just when the indictment came down early last year, it was in 2016. as soon as the russia investigation came to the public consciousness he started saying it's a witch hunt, it's a hoax, it's the deep state out to get me, and that pattern has continued and continued and continued. and it really helped his base, you know, once they were bought in on that in december 2016, they were bought in, and that was it. so yeah, this indictment, they look at it and the conviction, they look at it like that's exactly what he said. at some point, rational people step back, well, it's hard to believe the deep state came up with all these crimes. >> they've been busy. >> they don't think about it. they're like, yeah, they're all out to get him. >> ironic for a group of people who are very skeptical of vaccines, but dahlia, because we had breaking news the vein of the abnormal tonight, i want to get your thoughts.
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clarence thomas, who is a key part of our system of justice and rule of law found to have three additional undisclosed trips that he took from his billionaire friend harlan crow. this is news from the judiciary committee in the senate. these are trips he did not disclose. this is on top of the hundreds of thousands if not millions of gifts he has taken thus far and only lately come clean about. what does this tell you about the danger we're in in terms of a completely corrupted high court and the lesson it sends to lower courts? >> i mean, i think i put this under the bucket of -- and it's the same bucket philip's just been talking about -- law is for suckers. law is for the little guy. you may have disclosure statutes, you may have ethics rules, you may have all sorts of obligations on the supreme court not to take gifts, but if you take gifts, to disclose it, this is not a surprise. and they're coming out in dribs
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and drabs. last week we got a partial disclosure of some of the trips that were paid for, so clarence thomas could go to bohemian grove, but not all of them. and here's three more trips that were never disclosed. so i think this is kind of of a piece with this larger trumpy theory, which is we have monarchic leader who ers who do not have to answer to the rule of law. when the little guy fails to get his death penalty paperwork, right, he goes to the death chamber. but when clarence thomas again and again, time after time after time doesn't file disclosures or amends disclosures but only partially, that's okay, because the law is for the little guy. i find it part of this systemic devaluation of the rules that everyone is supposed to abide by and it's a very systemic effort to, i think, normalize the notion that some people are just too cool and important to have
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to follow the rules. >> yeah, everyone's supposed to abide by the law, especially supreme court justices. dahlia lithwick and philip bump, thank you both for your time tonight. appreciate it. we have much more ahead tonight. do you have any summer travel plans? cross country road trip maybe? today former president donald trump singled out one, quote, horrible american city that at least he might recommend skipping. but first supreme court upheld access to the primary drug used in most abortions for now, but that doesn't mean the fight is over. not by a long shot. i'll talk to nancy nor thereupon at the center for productive rights coming up next. r for productive rights coming up next.
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in a unanimous decision today, the united states supreme court maintained access to the primary pill used in most abortions, mifepristone. the court rejected a bid to severely reject access to that drug on procedural grounds. writing for the court, justice brett kavanaugh claimed the plaintiffs calling themselveses the alliance for hippocratic medicine, kavanaugh said they had no legal standing to challenge the fda approval this. case is dead, but the group of
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lawyers representing them, they say they are not done. >> the court said that our clients don't have standing in this case. we're grateful the case will continue with three states working to hold the fda accountable for its reckless actions. >> today republican attorneys general in missouri, idaho, and kansas represented by the adf are continuing to challenge access to mifepristone using the same legal argument used in the case the court rejected today. this time, though, they are framing access to mifepristone as an infringement on state's rights. now, even if this new legal challenge fails in federal court, there are still restrictions on this pill at the state level. last month louisiana, where abortion is already banned, became the first state to classify both drugs used for medication abortion as controlled dangerous substances, effectively shutting down access to this pill, both pills, through the mail. joining me now is nancy northup, president and ceo of the center
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for reproductive rights. nancy, thank you for being here. first, i'd like your sort of general reaction to the supreme court ruling today. was it one of optimism, anxiety, pessimism, how did you see it? >> well, it was huge relief because if the supreme court had upheld the ruling of the u.s. court of appeals for the fifth circuit, than availability of medication abortion by telemedicine, receiving it by mail, things that have made it much easier for people to get access to medication abortion if they do not live near a clinic, if they can't take that time off, could have been taken away. so relief, but frankly, anger, because we shouldn't have been here to begin with, as you can tell with the fact that nine of these justices agreed with each other, this case had absolutely no merit. had no merit in the law and had no merit in fact. and so while breathing a sigh of relief today, really concerned, because we know -- and you just,
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you know, showed us, you just heard it -- the campaign against medication abortion by those who are opposed to abortion is far from over. >> yeah, and it seems very clear that the adf, the alliance defending freedom, the legal organization that defended these doctors, is out there ready for the next wave of this, which involves the states. the attorney general of kansas said today that states have the standing that the doctors in this case did not. how concerned are you about that legal theory? >> well, i'm concerned about it because, obviously, we have lower court judge who is even agreed in this case, but the supreme court said absolutely no merit and threw it out. but it does not have merit. you cannot just go into court because you disagree with a ruling based on science by the fda. and let's be clear, why are they going after medication abortion? because it's the method of choice by almost two-thirds of
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women who have abortion many the united states today are choosing medication abortion. and they want to cut that off. they want to cut it off in states where abortion is legal, in states like illinois and new york and california and beyond. so we need to be concerned because trying to keep coming in with the junk science as they did in this case and really baseless claims, they're going to keep on going. >> yeah, if they can't ban medication abortion in blue states, which obviously is the end goal here, there is a noncourt strategy, which is for states to independently take it upon themselves as louisiana did to say this should be a controlled substance, we're not going to use it here. is that actually the most sort of pernicious strategy here? is that the one you're most concerned about, or do you think the whole ball game of banning it nationally is where the right's going to focus most of their fire power? >> oh, they're going to do both. and let's also remember that abortion's already banned in
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louisiana. and so you know, where we are today is the same status quo which is wholly unacceptable and harmful where we were yesterday, which is that 14 states have banned abortion with really severe criminal penalties and for people in those states, you know, that status quo is completely unacceptable. >> in the meantime, nancy, you know, as was debated at the state level, federal level in the courts, and so forth, there's a reality for people seeking bodily autonomy and reproductive healthcare across this country. the "new york times" has a staggering map of the number of people who are traveling across state lines to seek abortion care. 171,000 people traveled for abortions last year, which was more than double the amount in 2019. i mean, what is the picture you can paint for us about the reality of abortion care and reproductive healthcare in the united states right now? >> right. it is completely unacceptable
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that in 2024 for people in those 14 states that they have to travel out of state to get care they should be able to get in state. you know, we were just in congress yesterday, there was a hearing in the subcommittee of the judiciary on the forced travel out of state, and laura miller, one of our clients in texas, talked about how because she was denied a medically necessary abortion in texas what would have taken 15 minutes and turned around her health in those 15 minutes, she had to spend three days and thousands of dollars of going to the state of colorado, that's the reality for so many women. and not everybody can leave their states. they don't have the means or the child care or the time off from work. it is really a healthcare crisis that's happening in the country right now. >> a completely self-inflicted crisis. more complicated, more expensive, more dangerous. nancy northup from the center for reproductive rights, it's great to have your perspective on this. thanks for your time tonight.
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from thank you. more ahead this hour, survivors of the sandy hook massacre reached a major milestone this week, and tomorrow could bring another measure of justice. but first, donald trump's new election strategy to compete against joe biden in the rust belt, insult the wisconsin city hosting the republican national convention. we'll have more on that coming up next. l have more on that coming up next. [music playing] tiffany: my daughter is mila. she is 19 months old. she is a little ray of sunshine.
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while donald trump was talking about things that he thinks are horrible, all of us lived through his presidency, so right back at you, buddy. to insult the state that's hosting your convention is kind of bizarre, actually, it's unhinged in a way. >> that was mayor cavalier johnson responding to donald trump's comments made reportedly behind closed doors where trump called the city of milwaukee horrible. milwaukee, wisconsin, of course, is the city where in a little over a month donald trump will officially become the republican presidential nominee at the rnc. meanwhile, first lady jill biden was in green bay today kicking off a healthcare initiative. nbc news has found since the launch of biden's re-election campaign in the fall, his team has made ten trips both to wisconsin and pennsylvania in addition to a dozen visits to the state of michigan. there is a logic to this. nbc news reports that biden's most likely path to victory at this point lies in pennsylvania,
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michigan, wisconsin, and a single electoral vote from a nebraska congressional district. joining me now is director of a more perfect union and former manager of bernie sander's 2020 presidential campaign. thanks for being here. i do wonder, you know, obviously, this white house is thinking of all 50 state, but the campaign is increasingly looking at a very specific reality for biden's re-election in those three states. as onlookers to all of this, should we be looking to those three states as the prism through which we understand everything else binds does between now and november? >> it's not the end all be all, but it is critical for biden if he's going to maintain the presidency in another four years, alex. when you look at wisconsin, i appreciate donald trump trying to dig the hole and keep on digging, but you and i know what he's trying to do, set up a rural and urban divide and trying to go off milwaukee. that's a state that he won in
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2016 by 23,000 votes. flash forward four years later, biden wins by 20,000 votes. what happened in those intervening four years? 300,000 more people voted in the state of wisconsin, and that helped deliver a margin for biden. and for those who are playing along at home with us, what are you expecting and assuming of turnout in 2024? and if it's closer to 2020, biden's in a great place. if it's closer to 2016, trump's in a better place. so it boils everything down, right, to make generating excitement and generating enthusiasm in these core states to win. >> how do you think of biden's words and actions and his priorities in terms of what he talks about tailored to those states? i mean, how much of an effect do you think that's going to have on the man, the president in the coming months? are we going to see a focus on certain issues over others because of this reality. >> yes, the jogfy matter, absolutely. you're right on there. if you think of michigan,
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wisconsin, pennsylvania, what defines them, what's unique about these places? these are states, alex, we know well that are factory towns that have lost jobs due to manufacturing that went away from the united states. these were towns that were proud that built trades and apprenticeships, proud to say they built cars and parts supplies and they made crayons and all kinds of things, cereals, and all kinds of stuff that we like. and we saw those jobs due to bad trade deals move abroad. and and here comes joe biden saying i got a different plan for you, i got a plot that says we're going to make it in america. we're going invest in industrial policymaking, which we're going to bring jobs back here. the priority is not just getting you a cheap good, it's getting you a quality good made here in the united states. that's an investment he's now making. and the sale of donald trump in 2016, 2015, 06 was to say you're off, everything's going terribly, drain the swamp, i'm going to change everything.
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here's joe biden doing it. the politics have to translate where we make that clear. you can see in the way donald trump is campaigning he doesn't have the same ability to go to these towns and argue that somehow he is going to do something to rebuild these areas when joe biden has come along and started to do it. and the goal of the next few months is to educate people about the fact that this choice has been made and do we stay on the track that joe biden's offering. >> do you feel like there's any tension, though, within some of these states -- and i'll pick pennsylvania because you have a more urban and suburban electorate clustered around philadelphia that he's got to keep in his ledger and perhaps even expand his support within. and then he also has allegheny county and he has kind of the rust belt part of the state, which is much more the sort of scranton joe persona, is that a delicate balance to maintain? because those are very different voter, very different levels ofening in, very different levels of information, very different levels of education, how do you see his ability to
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strike a balance between the two? >> i tend to think, alex, joe biden does it well. he's got politics of how to bring the together, but the people who haven't eyet made up their mind about either candidate, the ones that are concerned about, you know, joe biden here and maybe donald trump there, those are working class people who often define by not having a college degree, holding down a job, making an income under $100,000 a year, that to me is really where you got to be laser focused. and to my mind, the argument that they haven't heard, and they need to hear over the next few months, is you have a billionaire in ceo class. we're speaking on a day in which donald trump went to cater to the ceo class, the business roundtable, and tell them you're going get tax cuts for the rich. i'm going to come back, and you're going to be so happy with me. they've got to know that's the choice. the choice is, as you were mentioning, scranton joe, who has been taking on a billionaire class, who's been trying to unrig an economy, fighting junk
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fee, noncompete bans, going after uncompetitive merger, right, to repair rules, things that speak to your pocketbooks, trying to make your life better. here's this guy promising every day, i've got your ceo backs, i'm going to deliver tax cuts. if you hone in on that working class audience, i believe they're most important of all of these audiences that we're going to need to persuade. >> you are being generous in suggesting that donald trump had a strategy by insulting the city of milwaukee, calling it horrible reportedly. mike johnson, i think, was on another cable news network tonight saying he didn't hear trump say that. i think other republicans don't think that's a great strategy if indeed it is a strategy. you know -- >> alex, i will say, maybe i blame myself for this, i listen to every donald trump speech. and at every single one of them, he tells you about the decline of american cities. he'll go after san francisco, new york, wherever he is, he'll pick a place nearby, it's terrible, everything you know
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here in massachusetts is terrible. so there's no slip of the tongue, this is intentional and by design. he's just realizing, oh shoot, the politics may not play as i wanted it to because i happen to be going there shortly to court votes. this is what he believe, the american carnage theory of the 2017 state of the union. let me sell you like everything's awful here. there and maybe he forgot the rnc was in milwaukee, which is entirely possible in the -- >> keep digging, right? >> -- strange brain of donald trump. shakir, thank you, as always, for your wisdom and enthusiasm. it's great to see you. >> thank you, alex, good to see you. coming up, today was the deadline for donald trump to file motions in his hush money trial ahead of his sentencing next month, so what did we hear from the former president and his legal team? that's coming up, stay with us. l team that's coming up, stay with us sfx: [birds chirping] for nourished, lightweight hair, the right ingredients make all the difference.
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last night more than 11 years after the worst day of their lives, the sandy hook survivors officially graduated high school. >> going into graduation we all have very mixed emotions. trying to be excited for ourselves and this accomplishment that we've worked so hard for but also those who respect able to share it with us who should have been able to. >> the shooting was kind of like our most core memory growing up, and i think that took away a lot of the joy that we could have experienced. >> even going to prom you think, well, what if they were my prom date? or, you know, what if -- what if they were my significant other? or what if they were able to walk the stage with me? who would i still be friends with now? >> seeing those children enter adulthood is a reminder of where this nation is 11 years later. according to the gun violence archive, america has experienced more than 4,800 mass shootings
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>> everybody is saying there's no pride in there's still no evidence whatsoever. no crime has been shown. woefully inadequate. there has been no evidence. there is no evidence and there is no crime. there is no crime. >> throughout donald trump's
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criminal trial in new york, the former president, citing legal experts, argue there was no evidence to convict him. the jury that unanimously found trump guilty of 34 felonies disagreed but under new york state law, trump has one more chance to prove that there was no real evidence of a crime by arguing that the judge should set aside the jury's verdict. today is the deadline for trumps team to file that motion. joining me now is christy greenberg, former federal prosecutor who served for over a decade when the attorney general's office in new york. by my clock, it is 9:55 on the west coast. -- there are two hours left for trumps team to file something. >> this is their last ditch effort. this is their last chance to make their legal arguments before they proceed to appeal so yes, they will be filing a false emotion. i think we are going to see a lot of the same recycled arguments that we have seen
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before, you know, just that you heard, that there is no crime here. you can't use state laws to deal with federal election crimes. you can't -- the judge is biased, the prosecutors are vindictive, and instead you're going to take a lot of those arguments and now cite the trial record but the problem is, the trial record does not support their arguments, right? this judge -- they will point to a number of places where the judge ruled against them or reprimanded them but there are also plenty of other examples where the judge ruled in their favor and kept out evidence like playing the access hollywood tape, like hearing about sexual allegations, sexual assault allegations against trump, you know, after that access hollywood tape came out. none of that came into the trial, so there were any number of even evidentiary rulings, things that went in trumps favor so this was really fair. i think their attempt to try to use the trial record to regurgitate a number of these arguments is really going to
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fall flat. >> is going to be presented to judge merchan, too, right? >> yes. >> so, is there a downside to doing this? do you further erode confidence in your argument? the appeals court does not look unfavorably toward a cockamamie argument sent back to the same judge? >> no, if anything, you are more preserving your record and adding back to the record but this is already a judge that told trumps lead counsel they've lost all credibility with the court and that was before the trial even started. >> we got new information today, as well, on the gag order. on monday, i believe trumps legal team introduced a new motion for judge merchan to lift his gag order, the reasoning, in part, being that trump would like to be able to speak freely about the judges, witnesses and prosecution during the presidential debate. do you think judge mershon was that all on this? >> i do, in his moving quickly and more quickly, it seems, from the papers that trump filed
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that which tells me he actually is looking seriously at this, so i think -- there are three categories, as you mentioned and there is one category where i think the judge is going to take a close look at it, and that is the statements that trump can make about witnesses. we have seen the appearances from stormy daniels them from michael cohen where they are talking about the case. they are talking about the election, they are talking about trump going to jail post verdict, so i think there is some merit to trump's argument that he should get to respond to those attacks and i think the prosecutors, even in their initial letter suggest they would make some amendments to allow for that. that is the one category where i could see some shift, but trumps motion says really nothing about why he should get
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to now attack the jurors after the verdict, or why he should now get to attack the judges daughter. none of that really has changed, and if anything, what we've seen from nbc news reporting, brian riley talking about threats to jurors, people trying to identify who these jurors are and threaten them with violence, another we are leaning toward sentencing, if any of that is revealed and he keeps ramping up these attacks on them, that is only going to intensify, so the need to protect these jurors and the court staff, the prosecutor step and their families has not gone away. this case is still pending. >> yes, and from the stage of a presidential debate that a lot of people are presumably tuning into does not keep anybody any safer. thank you for helping me understand the machinations of trumps legal team. that is our show for tonight, and a reminder, you can listen to every single episode of alex wagner tonight as a podcast for free. scan the qr code on your screen or search for alex wagner tonight wherever you get your podcast. now, it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. >> good evening, alex. nancy pelosi is going to be our

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