thank you so much for watching. remember, if this wasn't enough you can listen to every episode of the 11th hour as a podcast for free. just grab your phone and scan the qr code on your screen. on that note, i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news thank you for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow.

so, have you watched the sopranoes? if not hit pause and go watch it and then come back in a couple of weeks and start this again. the first season is 13 episodes long. they obviously -- it's one of the greatest achievements in american drama. certainly in contention for one of the greatest television shows ever made in any country on any subject. in season 1 you have to get through like half the whole season -- i think you have to get to the 7th episode or something before you get anything that seems like it is a backstory on your lead character. so, i mean here is a story about a man in therapy, yes he is a gangster but is he a man in therapy. so you think, right from the very start of the very first episode you are going to get, you now, therapy speak.

tell me about your childhood but it's not until seven episodes in to it that we finally see tony as a little kid. in that scene here is young tony, his uncle comes looking for his dad. tony's dad hops in a car and takes off with the uncle. tony himself, the kid ends up missing the school bus and while he is not at school he ends up finding his dad and his uncle and seeing what they were up to. basically sneaks up on them and what he sees is his dad and his uncle just beating this guy up on the street corner. this happens in episode seven. then it's two more seasons, you are all the way into -- into season 3 of the whole series when you get another flash back to tony as a little kid with his dad. this time once again, young tony is not supposed to be there. he has snuck in. his dad goes to collect from a

local butcher and the dad not only beats the living daylights of the butcher but he takes a meat cleaver to the guy. it is horrible. it is impossible to watch and young tony, the kid. he sees it. and, yes, it's a gangster tv show and so of course there will be violence but it's also a really, really, really good gangster tv show so it's never that simple. in the show we get these flash backs to give us backstory on our main character but also basically to understand what is wrong with tony. of course, he loved his father. we learn that he inherited his own position in the mafia from his father and built on that position to become a boss himself but then as an adult, as a big tough, mob boss, as

our lead character also faints all the time. he has panic attacks and he has done this -- this most ungangster thing and put himself in therapy. what is the matter with mob boss tony? we romanticize gangsters. tony does that it his father basically as an abstraction. in these flash backs which he makes you wait for wait for and wait for ultimately what you get, what young tony sees as a kid, what we sees his dad doing is disgusting. it's gross and it hurts tony to see it. it kind of breaks him. what young tony sees as a kid. what happens in these flash back is not romantic. it's not cool. it's just violence.

it's menace. it's unromantic, thuggery. it's not art or sport or anything with any elegance to it. it's just a mess. it's gross. and as the series unspools you come to learn that this is part of why tony is the sad sick that he is and why is he doomed as a character. gangster themed tv and movie violence is something that we are very good at in this country. we all know all the tropes. making business people pay protection to the mob and if they don't pay their protection money the mob guys beat them up and trash their business and maybe even kill them. the mob guys running the card games and the other rackets where the adds are against you but they are that you will get yourself killed if you get in debt to them. and extortion and stealing and prostitution and drug dealing armed robbery. we have all seen it in a

million shows. you can create all sorts of romance and drama round it and we do but when it's done right, the violence never goes away and it messes people up in an unsexy, lasting, awful, unromantic way. it makes big tough, you know, mob bosses built like james gandolfini straight up faint which is not cool in so many ways. we're living through an era in our country's political life right now which is not politics and if you want to call it the most romantic possible thing i think you could call it revolutionary just like gangsters a familiar trope we

also romaticize revolutions but what we are contending with in politic is a movement that's not doing normal politics and not competing in normal political terms. they are trying to end the american system of government. they are trying to bring about a revolution against the american system of government and against the united states of america and in this story we are the americans. so, yes, you know, being revolution sounds very cool in the abstract just like being gangster sounds cool in the abstract but in the specific what they are actually offering is boring because it's just gross force. it's the end of politics. let's just do it by force because physically we mean it just the way we say we are saying it. we mean it just the way you're hearing it. we're coming for you. >> mr. fbi tough guy why is he wedding -- why does he wet

himself on national tv? he is scared because he understands the end is near. so brother, you and all the other people. -- these are to rt orous conversations. don't torture yourself. get out of the country. you're not going to like it your crimes and treason, all of you. go head. go to the independents ends of the earth. >> drive the vermin out of 1600 pennsylvania avenue. biden you and your crime family are nothing but trash. >> for joe biden and dr. jill biden, they a lot of feral dogs. it's a family of feral dogs. we are going to have to fumigate the lies of joe biden, the treason of joe biden. after that it's not the tapes. we are coming after the senior

members of doj that have prosecuted president trump, jack smith. that's when you come in. you are the vanguard of this revolution. we are going to do what the romans do. we are going to salt the earth around it so there will never be another building. we will rebuild something else. there will be something else that comes up and is rebuilt along the lines that's appropriate. we have to go back to the beginning. we have to go back to russia gate. we have to go back to who did that. we have to go back to the commission. we have to go back to andrew weissman and msnbc and the new york times and all of it. every fbi agent, all the cia, dhs, chris ray, all of them t will be a new day in maga will run things. they are going to know that maga is not only ascendant but in charge. it's very simple.

victory or death. >> this isn't, you know, red meat for the base. this is retr ib ution as much as tony's dad was providing protection to the local butcher. this is not a response to anything. what this is just menacx physical threat, right? it's not politics. it's just power. it's just force. they are just promising violence. that is what they are offering in this election. that this is how we should run the country now. we will hunt you down and you will know that we are in power and we're going to get rid of law enforcement. we're going to hunt you down. i mean this is not some random right wing media guy. this is the man who is the campaign manager for donald trump and also the senior white house advise ear to the former president who is now their nominee again. it is -- it's not like is he the only one saying this. this is what they are offering

the american public. they love it. they are super excited to be getting done with politics, getting right to the force and violence part of it. >> the next six months will be intense. we need to strap on our, let's see, what do we want to strap on? we're going to strap on our seatbelt. we're going to put on our helmet or your kari lake ball cap. we're going to put on the armor of god. then maybe strap on a glock on the side of us just in case. >> we will throw off the sick political class that hates our country. we will route the fake news media and free america from these villains. >> don't you think for a second he won't unleash hell on

his politic allen political enemies. >> once and for all. finish it. this is not politics. a political contest you compete against your fellow citizens with whom you have political disagreements. whoever loses that fair race concedes and then they come back. they have the opportunity to come back in the next election cycle and compete against you again. in real politics nothing is unfinished. you never take power once and for all. your emenies aren't vanguished but they are not trying to win a political contest. they are trying to do away with political contests in the united states of america which might be why they aren't putting much energy in to the normal way of competing. you may have seen this weekend former president went to detroit which of course seems like a normal thing for a

political candidate to do, billing big city and went to a black church. he goes to this black church in detroit and his campaign does not take any steps to avoid the pews being filled with white people, with white trump supporters. then on the day, the message of his supposed campaign is that he is trying to appeal to black voters, right? that's the whole point of doing this photograph op. he then goes straight from that venue, stuffed with white people to a conference hosted by this guy who has been in the news for the last few months for saying we made a huge mistake when we passed the civil rights act in the 60s saying that he thinks black people are not qualified to be airline pilots, that he worries if he is on a flight and sees that the pilot is black. who has been posting things like whiteness is great on social media. who has been hosting guests on his podcast to talk about how black people are incapable of

advanced intelligence. someone who said mlk, meaning dr. martin luther king jr. was awful. not a good person. so on the day your campaign message is black voters, look at me. going from the black church that's full of white people right to -- right from there to go be with -- to go do an appearance with the mlk was awful and the civil rights act was a mistake guy. if that's how you are running your campaign you are not trying very hard in normal campaign terms. they are not trying very hard in normal campaign terms. they are trying -- they are not trying very hard to compete on normal political appeals. what they are trying to do instead is take power my menacing and chases out of the country anyone who opposes their leader. let -- letta anyone who

competes against him. if you are done with politics and you just want to be in charge forever by force then no one can be allowed to contest the leader or to question the leader. importantly nobody can be allowed to offer any alternative source of authority to the leader. so there can't be journalists who know stuff and report it. there can't be opposition politicians. there can't be anyone who runs against him that would mean taking your life in your hands. there can't be law enforcement that does anything independent of what the leader wants. the government has to work for the leader. there's no government providing information and services like we are used to. there's no state. there's just the deep state which is terrible and evil and against the leader and it must be purged, replaced just with people he likes and who do what he wants. the guest cannot have a civil service that has subject matter

experts because everybody has to work only for the leader. >> we should be recommending you to be prosecuted. we should be writing a criminal referral because you should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity. you belong in prison dr. fauci. >> the trump era in the republican party this is what it's like to be the nation's most esteemed public health official. the nation's top subject matter expert on infectious disease. dr. fauci was the head of the national institute of allergy and infectious disease for 38 years. he has a new book out tomorrow. in that book he say that in the early days of the aids pandemic the aggressive hate mail he got was homophobic, criticizing me for trying to save mostly gay men who brought this upon themselves by their behavior.

with ebola he said the hate male was related to the perception that i favored black africans over the health of our country. so that's the kind of hate mail he got in the aids era. in this era, in response to our most recent infectious disease threat n the context of the trump movement on the american political right now the torrent of hate and threat is of a different order and a different size. >> the criminal gang leaders. the big heads of the central banks. phizer head, fauci, all of them that laid to trump. created the disinformation. had the vaccine ready years before they released the virus. they all need to go to prison for the rest of their life. it is the right thing to do that they be executed. i'm not a wimp. i will volunteer. i think it should be public. i will pull the lever.

i don't have a blood lust but i don't want people to do work i won't do. >> dr. fauci tells the story of his decades in public service serving seven different presidents, helping lead the response to not only hiv and aids but also to ebola and zika and sars and even the anthrax attacks after 9/11. it's a 450 page book. it comes out tomorrow. it's fascinating. every new crisis is a detective story and a science thriller a political pot boiler all rolled into one. the last hundred pages or so are about the covid crisis and also about serving, trying to handle the covid crisis under the most recent republican president. under donald trump and even though that part of his career in public service is over. he retired in 2022 after serving has president biden's

chief medical adviser. though is he out of public service the trump movement and it's members in congress and it's supporters in the media are still going after him as aggressively as ever if not more so. even two years after he left government because he is one of the things they are trying to destroy. one of the things that they need to destroy in their revolution war against the american system of government. it is not that they disagree with him. it is not that they misunderstood. it is that he represents expe rt ise. authority. earned by experience. the way we -- we sort of shorthand that is he is a person who knows what he is talking about. that of course is toxic for their political project. that cannot be allowed to stand. so he is still in the bullseye

for them even now. >> i would love to see him put in jail. i would love to see him financially suffer. >> you say he lied to congress and should be arrested. isn't that going a little far? >> i don't know i said that he should be arrested but i like the idea. >> they are still going after him even now. this is from the book this is from august of 2020. says i had been absent from work for a few days because i had a polyp removed from a vocal cord. it was about 10:30 a.m. when i picked a letter. it had a jacksonville, florida return address t was type written in an unusual font but looked like the fan mail i got every day. most of the time people asked me to sign a baseball card. sometimesthey told me they hated me. i hoped the top of the envelope and took out a single sheet of

paper. as i unfolded it fine white powder shot up from the paper and drifted down onto my face, my tie, my shirt, my hands. my pants, my desk and my chair. i instantly feared anthrax or worse. i shouted to my assistant, kim do not come into my office. go get george and brett my security detail down the hall. they sprinted to the door of my office yelling don't move, stay where you are. don't come out. you will contaminate everything else. following their instructions i put the letter engineer into a bag. george called the nih hazmat team who came to my office in their space suits. they had me remove all of my clothes and they sprayed me down with chemical foam. i thought this is insane. there i was standing naked being sprayed down by guys in space suits. my fate hinged on a call giving me a preliminary analysis of the powder. there were three possibilities,

a hoax and a harmless powder, anthrax and i would require four weeks of the ant ib iotic or it was ricin. ricin is lethal when injected orrin hailed. christine, and our daughters were terrified that i might die. jeny was also furious which was also a reflection of her fear and concern for me. they dreaded that i might say i was starting to feel sick. i felt like a complete idiot for opening a suspicious letter. my mother died at age 56. my father at 97. at age 79 myself i lived a long, full, happy life of achievement. my legal papers were in order because they are always in order. as a doctor i have held the hands of many as they died. i do not fear death.

i was not ready to leave this earth yet. not by a long shot. should go without saying should not be something that happens in the life of a public servant, of a public health official. here we are. 1.2million americans have died from covid. his book explains the government's response, the challenge of dealing with a literally novel coronavirus, something new, learning as we go. he also tells the story of trying to build a government response with a president who literally did not understand what was going in fundamental ways, who told him for example, that he didn't understand why he would get a flu shot if he did not have the flu as if he did not understand the difference between a treatment and a vaccine. a president who asked why the flu vaccine couldn't just be used to prevent covid as if he

didn't understand that diseases and viruses different. a president who believed a fox news host when she told him that there was a secret miracle cure for covid a president who didn't understand how studies disproving that had any more truth than someone he saw on the news. and it got worse from there. this is also from his book. i attended a task force briefing -- at the department of homeland security. bryan explained two study that showed how sunlight and humidity could kill the virus and substances could be used effectively to clean nonporous surfaces. the following day he briefed the president on these studies. he then joined the president on

the podium in the briefing room. the result was the press conference where trump appeared to endorse using bleach as a way to san clean lungs covid. then said where it knocks it out in a minute. one minute and is it there way a we can do something like that by injection inside or a cleaning? because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a number on the lungs so it would be interesting to check that. he said i was not at that day's press briefing but i thought oh my god. poor deb being on stage. she must have been horrified and it would have been difficult for her to go against the commander in chief. sitting in front of the television i knew we would have people who heard that from the

press and would then go head and try it. my phone immediately exploded with texts and calls asking me to comment. i instantly realized i and other scientists had to counter this message to keep americans taking bleach which could literally kill them. he is in the bulls eye of the trump movement to this day. as they seek to return to power. he is in the bulls eye of the trump movement even after leaving the government and it is not because of covid or the controversial and difficult decisions of this most recent epidemic threat that he helped the country face down. he has faced down plenty of those in his years at nih. what he is facing now is a political movement that cannot abide public health experts at all because it cannot abide experience at all because that competes with the truths that

are spouted from the head of the leader. it is a movement that cannot abide authority and experience from anyone other than their leader and they answer any such competition for him with menace and it's not romantic but there is nothing sexy or dramatic or lovely about it. it is boring, it is violent, and it's about using force and it's a war against the united states system of government. dr. fauci is an accomplished and brave public servant. he should not have to be as brave as he is but he is and he joins us live here next.

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joining you now for the interview is dr. fauci the directer of the wednesday --

for 38 years until his retirement 18 months ago. he has a new book out called on call. he joins us now for his first live interview ahead of the book's publication. it's an honor to have you here. >> thank you. >> i feel i have been counting on you to explain things and one of the things that i'm counting on you for now is bearing a lot of slings and arrows that you don't deserve. so i wanted to give you a chance. i set up this interview with some strong words about the way that you have been targeted. i wanted to give you a chance to brush me back if you think that was inappropriate or was wrong. >> think you are right. that's the thing that i experienced most recently at the congressional hearing where the purpose of the hearing was to -- the stated purpose of the hearing was to figure out how we can do better, learn by our mistakes and be better prepared

for the next pandemic. it was complete vitrol. i mean they -- there was nothing that even looked like that and to me that's the thing that scares me because i think when you go down that road i personally think -- and i say it in the book that i think that -- it'll undermine our social order and undermine the fabric of our democracy. even though it's in a health issue with me it's in other issues for other people so that worries me more than the attacks on me. i have to say that honestly this may family and i -- we worry for about what will happen to the country than the threat on me. >> and in terms of the kinds of criticism that you are getting i know over your long career you have had a lot of different criticism from a lot of different people. i -- was a member of act up. member of an aids activist movement that gave you a hard time in the aids epidemic and you talk about that in the

book. about being stuck by the vitrol and the tone of some of the -- and the tactics of of the ways we criticized and you alsoing aring when that criticism was warranted and when it should change your course. i thought that was sort of model of humility. a model of how to be a responsible public servant. i wonder if you reflected at all about the difference between that kind of -- aggressive criticism and what you have experienced in the covid time. >> it's a huge difference. i mean you couldn't -- imagine anything more different. back in the mid to late 80s, what the mostly gay activists, young gay men were doing is that they were trying to get our attention that they needed to be part of the process of discussing the clinical trial, the criteria. the extraordinary amount of time that the fda took to

approve a drug without any basis at all forgetting drugs to people who needed a use for it. they wanted to say sit down and we will tell you how we can make this work. the community, myself included at the time and the regulatory community, they said something which was understandable but not acceptable looking back like we know better what's for you than what you know for you. so when they heard that that's when they started to be very demonstrative, and disruptive. the community pulled back from that even more, probably one of the best things i have ever done in my career was i just started listening. i took away the theater, took away the behavior and listened to what they were saying and what they were saying was making absolutely perfect sense. so i kind of describe it now to people. i use the john lewis when he said that's trouble but it's

good trouble. they were making good trouble for me and when i started listening to them we were on the same track. fast forward 40 years and you have a situation where it's pure -- it's not like let's talk about something how we can make the world a better place or make the country -- its nothing at all. it's just tearing people down so when people show a sign of an anti fauci in 1984, 85, and in 2000, 2022 it's very, very different. >> in one case they are asking you to do something different in the government response to hiv and aids and the other one they want to kill you or they want to lock you up and put your -- put your head on a pike. in the information environment that we are in now and this is one of the things you should land on at the end of the book this worry that it's not like misinformation and disinformation are new but in

the media ironment we are in it can be so fast and can so swamp grounded information. i want to give you an opportunity right now to respond in the way i know you can to the claims that have been made against you by the trump movement and by the kinds of members of congress who have shouting at you the other way in that hearing. they have accused you of creating the covid vaccine, of covering up the real story that the virus has essentially created. >> we don't know what the start of this virus is. either somehow came out of a lab where chinese scientists went in and got infected played with it and came out or it was a natural spill over from an animal to a human in the whuhan

market. i keep an open mind. the evidence by most qualified experts strongly favor -- though not completely but strongly favor that it's naturally occurring but since it's not clear i keep an open mind when they say that's incorrect is that the nih funded a grant in china and in indirect grant -- funded a firm in new york that did a subaward to do some surveillance studies on what is out there with i is a perfectly appropriate thing to do. i would probably be held as being incompetent if we didn't do that. virus that were being studied under the nih grant are always -- a big word, so distant from saw's -- that there's no chance

in the world that someone could make that virus turn into it. this attack that you funded a project that turned into covid is ridiculous and anyone that knows anything about virology will say that the precursor virus couldn't turn in even if you tried. >> so looking at it this virus under study with -- having any involvement is so dissimilar to the virus that caused the pandemic that there's no chance they are. >> even if you tried. even if you tried to do it. but that still doesn't rule out. possibility that somewhere in china out of a lab came the virus. that's why i say over and over again even though the evidence weighs toward it being natural i keep an open mind that we still don't know. >> i have so much more to ask

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with absorbine pro, pain won't hold you back from your passions. it's the only solution with two max-strength anesthetics to deliver the strongest numbing pain relief available. so, do your thing like a pro, pain-free. absorbine pro. we are back with dr. fauci. this is an instant that happened three days before the 2020 election. he said by this time the virus had infected more than 9 million americans and killed 230,000. new daily case was hitting record highs. out on the campaign trail

donald trump insisted we are turning the corner. we are rounding the curve. we will vanguish the virus. he said during the phone call that day everybody wants many he to fire you but i'm not going to fire you. you have to be positive. the country cannot stay locked down. have you to give them hope. i like you but so many people not only in the white house but throughout the country hate you because of what you were doing. then the president continues. i'm going to win this election by a landslide. just wait and see. i always did things my way and i always win no matter what all these other people think and that biden is so stupid. i'm going to kick his -- in this election. getting that call a few days before the election where he did not win, i know that by this point you had quite a lot of interaction but it seems

like that one unnerved you a little bit. >> you know it did. it almost as if he was talking past me. he ended it by saying take care, see you soon, something like that. it was like -- i wasn't quite sure. it was unnerving. even though you are convinced you are doing the right thing. just level with the american public. you will wind up being better off. it's not a pleasant thing to have the president of the united states when you have such a great respect for the presidency of the united states, for the president to get on the phone and scream at you the way he did. that was very tough. >> you describe something that i had understood sort of in a -- you but i never understand it as a pattern which is his continued references to the

flu. it did seem the way that you described that president trump didn't understand some of the basics about the flu and that it's a different virus than covid. he said to you that he didn't see why he would have to get a flu shot if he didn't have the flu. he didn't understand it was preventive and not treatment. >> that's true. >> he also said that why can't we just use the flu vaccine to prevent covid. do you think he doesn't know what a vaccine is? >> i think after all the things we told him. the thing that i think under lies this is that he wanted it so much to be like the flu because the flu peaks and it goes away in march, april it's gone and then you can go on with the election cycle. >> it has a season. >> it wasn't doing that. it wasn't going away. so, he kept on saying it's going to disappear like magic and i said no i'm sorry but that won't happen. i had to do that in public and

then when that didn't work he started invoking magical cures. you know then when it became clear that wasn't working he brought in scott atlas who said what he wanted to hear. it was just wanting for it to go away and figuring out if it wasn't going to go away naturally i will act like it'll. that was the problem. >> was it dangerous for him to promote those other cures that don't actually treat covid? >> yeah. i mean obviously it is. i don't want to get into how many numbers of people would have made a difference. clearly he missed an opportunity because there were people out there who knew nothing about this, who were saying it works and we know that not only does it not but it actually hurts people. he could have used the bully pulpit of the presidency to say listen to the scientists but he didn't to that. >> in terms of the vaccine

development that happened in this country. you that described as being almost a miracle in terms of the pace going from in 11 months from fact to a safe and effective and doe appliment virus. that's something that the united states of america contributed to the world's response and you have a lot to be proud of. i don't know if it's okay for me to ask but if there had been a problem in developing a vaccine. if we hadn't been able to do that do you have in mind a number about how many would have died? >> i think worldwide it would be many more millions. 2349 united states probably another million. it was very, very clear when you looked at the curves of hospitalizations and deaths in people who were vaccinated verses people who were unvaccinated the unvaccinated people. the death and the hospitalization went this way. vaccinated it was low like this. the difference, the multifull difference in hospitalizations

and death if we did not -- if we had a vaccine in the uribe other time that it takes to get a vaccine this would have been an even more unimaginable devastation that we would have gone through. even more unimaginable. it's already unimaginable. >> 1.2 million. >> it's already -- just horrible. it would have been much worse. >> i have one more matter i want to ask you about. we will be right back right after this. anti-dandruff shampoo made with only nine ingredients - no sulfates, silicones or dyes and packaged with 45% less plastic - giving you outstanding dandruff protection and leaving hair beautiful and moisturized. major dandruff protection, minimal ingredients. job done. new head & shoulders bare.

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we're back with dr. fauci. his new book comes out tomorrow. it's a really good read and an impressive history of someone who has been there for all of it for the past decades, seven presidents. when i was in the aids movement, one of the things that affected my life was that people who were hiv positive became hiv denialists and people decided that hiv didn't cause aids and if they were sick it was the anti hiv drugs that were the thing making them sick and they should take a natural course and i lost a lot of -- i had friends die because of that. it was -- i never knew what to do about it. now i feel like we have a national sickness that sort of feels like it has repeats of that. do you see parallels? >> absolutely. the aids denialists would -- had people in the united states

die because of that but in south africa, the president of south africa used the aids denialists as an excuse not to have drugs for the people south africa and about 300,000 died because they were withheld drugs because of aids denying. i think if you deny the science of the vaccine and that vaccines are safe and effective. when you have billions of people who have been vaccinated and the data showing a life saving elements of a vaccine that is denying and when people don't get vaccinated because of whatever reason they have for not getting vaccinated those are lives lost that are avoidable deaths and there's been some modeling studies to show that there have been a substantial number of people that would have been alive had

they gotten vaccinated that didn't get vaccinated because they didn't think you should get vaccinated. they believed people who said vaccines don't work and vaccines are dangerous. many of those people are dead now and that's really unfortunate no matter their political slant, that pains me to see people having died because of a decision based on a political reason. >> with your work even on aids alone just that alone your work is -- has been -- for saving 25 million lives and that's where you start counting before you get to covid. thank you for your service. >> thank you so much. >> good luck to you. >> thank you. >> dr. fauci former director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases. his book comes out tomorrow. we'll be right back.

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