we appreciate the analysis, from you, admiral. thank you. thanks to all of for getting up "way too early" for us this this morning. "morning joe" starts right now. >> i took a cognitive test and i aced it. dr. ronnie johnson. does everyone know doc ronnie johnson? >> i love doc ronnie johnson. he gave me a beautiful test and i went home to my test malaria. >> it's like walking into a glass door after the doctor says you have 20/20 vision. >> here is the problem. the sad thing is under maga law, his name is now ronnie johnson! >> oh, my. okay. the late night is having fun with donald trump's latest

gaffe. the white house is slamming chief fake videos spread by right wring media which are edited to make president biden look confused. we will go against the fight of clips some edited and misleading. >> played a clip from fox news taking people to task for doing just that. >> yes. he did, he did. he had guests on that were completely misleading again but it was a good try. >> he did it, nonetheless. it's very important for people that are being fed a steady stream of lies to be cold by somebody that reviews of media, this is a lie. you're being -- you know, howie said what i've always thought, which is, you know, the age issue for both of these candidates, that is a real issue. >> yeah. >> so talk about the issue. you want to talk about it? i think everybody thinks both of

these candidates are older than they are comfortable with, both of them. that said, make those issues don't make up others. >> also, i think when those on the right try to make it will like biden is out of his mind or "the wall street journal" does a front page piece saying biden is completely slipping and they don't notice at the very same time that they are covering biden in this way that is misleading, donald trump is on stage talking about sharks and slipping. >> jonathan lemire, i don't know if surprising is the right word. i'll say so concerning in the middle of a presidential election is it's a tabloid. i understand it's a tabloid but the "new york post," the same guy that owns the "new york post" owns "the wall street journal" fox news and down the list.

you know, the front of their paper deliberately lying about what howie kurtz was talking on fox news and joe biden giving the thumb's up to parachuters and the media system seems to spreading misleading or outright false stories about joe biden. "the wall street journal" i have praised in this space for their new editor. i really like the changes at "the wall street journal." >> yeah. >> but even then, their paper, a week ago or so, in a story that just made absolutely no sense, we talked about it on the show already a couple times, you know, they get kevin mccarthy to lie on the record when there were reports months, you know, in the making that kevin mccarthy always lies on the

record about joe biden's mental acutity. then he says the completely opposite thing on the record to other publications or other staff. >> one wonder if the high on tilting the media coverage here from these outlets. the "new york post" knew better. a full day earlier in the aftermath of that moment in normandy it was debunks and independent observers saying president biden was not meandering off and he was going to salute one of the other parachuters and came back to take that photograph with the prime minister. for hours that was a done story. the "new york post" put on the front page the following morning and try to turn it into something it was. . yesterday, we asked the press secretary to call out the cheap fakes and in particular the one twitter account associated with the rnc, which puts out a lot of

misleading videos and amplified by the others on the right and the rnc's research account said, nope we are going to keep doing it and flat out said we don't care. that is the problem here that the biden campaign but also those of us in the media are going to have to grapple with between now and november because the speed of these fakes only is increasing. >> yeah. you know, jonathan is right. you have to start asking are these coming on high when you have the same news organization doing what jonathan just said, deliberately lying about a shot cropping in the way they know they are lying to the readers. >> right. >> right? that comes about a week after "the wall street journal" story that they know is misleading. no reasonable person could not know it's misleading. we bring it up just to say we have now expanded far out from just deep fakes on twitter/x,

other social media, tiktok, to now deep fakes or cheap fakes even in the "new york post" and other publication. >> we are just over a week from the first presidential debate. a long time democratic strategist is questioning whether trump will even show up. also dr. anthony fauci will join us live in the studio this morning and discuss his time at the white house during the pandemic and much more. we look forward to that interview. >> a lot of people are really, really angry at this guy. >> why? what did he do? >> for committing his entire life to trying to save millions of americans' lives. really angry. >> how dare he do that. >> with us we have former chairman of the republican national committee and host of "the weekend" on msnbc, michael

steele with us this morning. associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson is here. deputy managing editor for politics at politico, sam stein. along with our very proud celtics fan jonathan lemire! >> look at jonathan with his green tie! >> not just green tie, joe. look at this. i won't put it on. but i have my green tie and my jacket. >> take us through the game eugene robinson. talking about misinformation when it comes to boston sports team and we don't want jonathan to do it. take us through the game, gene. >> look. at the beginning, the mavericks put up a fight, you know? they had blown out the celtics in that last game. they came out with determination. but the celtics were just too

good. they were just too good. they just have too many weapons and jayson tatum was sensational last night. every time they needed a big play, which frankly wasn't for very long in this game, because they never trailed. the celtics ran away with this. they were the best team in basketball all season. and they really breezed through the playoffs with a couple of off nights. >> right. >> you know, that core of tatum and brown and white and jrue holiday, you hardly even need porzingis, you know? they were just massively good and congratulations to the celtics. >> yeah. now let's go for the view from boston from a man who gets his boston sports news from local boston sports stations. jonathan lemire, why is this bad

news for the city of boston, for the boston celtics, and, of course, for our beloved red sox? >> am i the pitch spot of this boston sports? no. this was great to see. first of all, joe, quick note. red sox are playing well 1 out of 3 against the phillies and 2 out of 3 against the yankees' coming on and fun aggressiveness and stole nine bases on sunday night. great to see that. as for the celtics, as gene said, the core of tatum and brown have been together seven odd years now and have come close a number of times and won six straight conference championships and they got over the hump this year. they earned it. it's been great to watch their evolution. a terrific supporting cast. a coach who was really doubted last year and came into his own this year. look. as you know, i'm always a nervous boston sports fan. i was anxious most of the game last night but eugene was right.

once we got to the middle of the second quarter, this game was over. even though i didn't really -- wasn't allowing myself to believe it. this is now their 18th championship putting them one ahead of the lakers for most of all time. and this is a team that in particular means a lot to this city. parade on friday! >> yeah. i hate that the officials have more championships than us now, that is magic saying that. what an incredible run. by the way, one reason to be grim to be an atlanta falcons sports fan, speaking of boston. sam stein, i'll go to you quickly here. i know you're a red sox fan. i don't know if you're a celtics fan but, i mean, red sox are on quite a run and i will tell you really heart warming, almost made for tv hallmark movie story in that first game of the yankees/red sox game where alex verdugo who was plagued by a

mystery illness last year as a red sox and wasn't able to run out routine ground balls or run after round pop flies in the outfield has now regained use of his leg as a yankee. we still won 2 out of 3. >> it was heartwarming to see alex regain function of his lower limbs which he lacked last year. but better to see the 2 out of 3. >> by the way, he lacked only when he had to run out ground balls. any way. go ahead. >> last year's team, i am trying to erase from memory. this year's team feels a little different. i know we linger in the .500 zone in a while but three games over now and playing really well. i like this year's team is scrappy. base running and triples and stolen bases and doing stuff we didn't do last year and makes it fun. i don't have lie expectations but i am enjoying this. last year was like a tedious

mess all the time. for the long suffering city of boston, an excruciating five or six years without a championship so thank god for the celtics pulling it off. i'm actually on a serious note, i'm happiest for al horford had been in the league 17 years without a championship and this is great for him. one of the league's really unsung heroes and a great player. >> yeah. some words you will never hear from me -- long suffering boston sports fan. you have like 87 championships! >> ridiculous. >> and four major sports. listen. yeah. it's been quite a run. any way, congratulation to the city of boston. >> as we were discussing, the white house is joining the biden campaign in pushing back against recent video clips going viral that make president biden look as though he is confused during the public events and other appearances. white house press secretary blasted the use of the misleading videos which are edited to make the president look back and circulated by

right wing media and allies. take a look. >> there are cheap fake videos and they are done in bad page and some of your news organization have been very clear, have stressed that these right wing -- the right wing critics of the president have a credibility problem because the fact checkers repeatedly pushed them with misinformation. i think it tells you everything we need to know about how desperate, how desperate republicans are here and instead of talking about the president's performance in office and what i mean by that is his legislative wins what he has he has been able to do for the american people across the country, we are seeing these deep fakes, these manipulated videos and it is, again, done in bad faith. >> that's all they have got. >> the republican account circulating many of the clips responded claiming the videos are unedited and promised to keep posting them.

>> a lie, a lie, a lie. >> if something is unedited, it's one angle, not showing the whole story. >> how about this? they lie about their lies, which, of course, you expect liars to lie about their lies. >> we are talking about trump's -- >> they are lying about their cheap fake. by the way, i got to say this one more time. they are only helping joe biden and lowering expectations and do it before every state of the union address and after that, they are so freaked out that biden did well, they say he must have been on cocaine. a sort of, you know, 2024 version of, you know? maybe an eric clapton song in the background? but they are doing the same thing for the debate. they lower expectations, they say he is like not -- then he does a good job and he they say

what happened? >> "the washington post" is talking about biden's recent trip to normandy. the clip showing president biden at the g7 summit running off from other world leaders before the italian prime minister alerts him of a group video. when you see the video from the different angle you see the whole story after a sky diver landed in front of the president and other leaders, president biden turns to his left where there are troops. the president appears to say something to them and gives them the numb's up before he is tapped on the arm by the italian prime minister. as these cheap fakes continue to circulate, there is growing concern that attempts to fact check them may not be able to keep up. as one democratic strategist puts it, quote.

and this is the problem and this is why the debate, everything about this campaign will make somebody who is in support of democracy and perhaps would even choose joe biden over donald trump just in support of democracy, never going to have a chance against lies, disinformation, and crazy insults. >> never going to have a chance. michael steele, i disagree. they will have a chance. in fact, if you look at donald trump's track record and donald trump's republican party over the last seven years, they are 0-7. so, yeah, maybe the biden team is going to have to work harder. maybe democrats are going to have to work harder. maybe people who actually like american democracy will going to work harder but they have to work harder genetic the word out that these people are lying, not only is the rnc lying, but also mainstream media outlets are all in on the lies. >> yeah. i think that is true. i agree with you, joe, a little

bit on that. it's the reality is very stark one and it's one that a number of us have been warning about for a while. you know what we haven't brought up in this conversation, which is right there at the tip of the sphere is a.i. a.i. generated that where you can take these events. we are talking about taking a clip and showing one angle from it. we have already seen the rnc and the trump campaign effort play in this space when the rnc put out its a.i. add last fall and didn't tell anybody. they completely made it up out of whole cloth and across the robocalls using the voice of the president telling voters not to vote during the new hampshire primary. so you've already seen these practices put in place. the problem is, it's not just one of, oh, guess what. fact checkers can't keep up.

the problem is you have mainstream media outlets are, as you mentioned before, "the wall street journal" in their own ways perpetuating this so it gives an air of legitimacy to some of this. before you have a chance to come back and say, "the wall street journal", what are you doing you? know that is not what this is and why not come clean on it? it's already placed up on x, right? a platform that elon musk said lie as much as you want. we don't care. it goes out there and then what do you do? so you're right. i think the main people kind know some of this but it's going to get worse, not better between now and november and that is the difficult part, particularly for american media that wants to try to play the balls and strikes, but wind up actually, you know,

tipping their hand a little bit from time to time. >> i mean, look. in major areas where people get their news, this lie or this concept by joe biden is being validated. you brought up the howie kurtz segment i showed you. he played sean hannity doing that entire scene with the paratroopers. a lot of people watch it and get their information and they make decisions based on it. they come to conclusions based on. they do ten minutes on that? i know you might think it's funny. i don't think it's funny. i think that you don't think it matters? i think it matters. they have a lot of power. >> that is what they do. >> they have a lot of influence and don't use responsible judgment or facts or news. their goals there are different. >> the goals there are not to share news with people. >> should we get a breaking news

headline down below? >> no. i hear you. but i think this is reaching a fever pitch now. >> this is what gets me about democrats and people who are center left. like, they are shocked, shocked that gambling is going on in the institution. instead of figuring out how to shut it counsel, hey. i'm not shocked. this is what they do and what they have always done. >> i don't remember "the wall street journal" -- >> am i shocked? i was going to am i shocked that the story and a couple of stories have gotten to "the wall street journal" like the day after andrew ross sorkin reports that donald trump was just out of his mind and people were laughing at him and group of ceos the next morning, you know? you got "the wall street journal" going, ceos love donald trump coming out of the -- no, it's just not true. i'm so shocked. i'm shocked by so few things in

the political realm any more, the media realm, that i hate to say it, but i will say, yes, i am shocked and that is the "the wall street journal" because what i've always done when i have friends that read the epic "times", you know? or friends that read other websites that are run by, you know, chinese religious cults, or other, you know, or funded by qatar, what i always do is i go, listen. you want the news? go to to "the wall street journal," it's a murdoch paper and they have some of the best reporters anywhere in america and the world. sam stein, that is sort of changing in the landscape. when it comes to the "new york post" it's rich that right wing chumpers are beating their chest last three afteryears, how could you have ever doubted the "new york post" and the hunter and biden laptops? how could that have even gone

through your mind? gone through your mind that maybe something planted in the "new york post" may have been misinformation, when they are showing us exactly why reasonable people would believe anything dumped at the ends of a campaign that favors donald trump is just out misinformation. again, look at the parachuting story and everything else that the "new york post" is doing right now. >> i totally agree with that. if you're going to run deceptive videos, the risk you run as an institution is that people won't believe you when you get legitimate stuff, right? that is the flip side. i will say there is something that jonathan said earlier in this program and i think it's worth stressing for the viewers and i think it was underscored by the quote you read from eric schultz which is this is a two-tiered system. one is that these videos get put out at a remarkable speed and the second is that people who are interested in sort of the

factual underpinnings of the videos or lack thereof try to keep up. jonathan knows this very well. our stock channels at politico regularly do feature, you know, these videos being put in there with a question where is the full clip? what is the context of this clip? journalists across the country are being forced in to this posture. imagine how much time and resources you waste trying to track down the validity of the actual video just to make sure whether it's in context or not. sometimes it is. but observe, it isn't. that is just the current state of journalism. you have to spends a lot of time cessing out whether the videos are real or not and i fear that this is going to be just the future because like michael steele said, the technology is just going to get more and more efficient at making these videos look more and more real when they are really not. >> well, you know, you're absolutely right, sam. i agree with everything you said, except it's not wasted time for news organizations to check this stuff out because

that is what we have to do. we have to interrogate every, you know, every reported fact and see if it's real or not. what really has struck me about the parachute video, i'm not any believer in conspiracies, but i do believe in coordination and, boy, this parachute thing was so coordinated. i wondered what that was about and karine jean-pierre said it smacked a desperation. i got to admit that that occurred to me because there was a certain desperate feel to it. you just look at the clip from a different angle and it's obliterates the story they are trying to tell. >> gene, that is the thing.

right? they put this up knowing they are going to be called out as liars, knowing that there are other angles that are going to prove that they are lying to their audience, that it will be exposed. that they lie today but the sun is going to rise tomorrow and the fact are going to become clear. people will wake up and say they were lying to us and, yet, they didn't care. maybe they thought our readers are stupid. maybe they thought our readers live in a fact-free echo chamber. i don't know what they thought but whatever it was, they were undervaluing and underestimating their readers. >> well, i think they were but i also think that they are trying to implant, to imprint this sort of idea they have been working on it for a long time, but this was a huge push, trying to imprint this idea that biden is,

you know, brain dead, basically, so -- no idea -- the a men chorus, there are people i didn't expect to be in that chorus and usually have more respect for fact, who were, yeah, that's right, he was totally lost. look at the clip. well, you look at the clip. you look at the video clip. come on. so i think they are trying to leave this impression and they don't really care if it gets called out as a why because they figure, well, for some vters, i guess the impression is still there, i don't know. still ahead on "morning joe," we will dig into the latest effort from the white house to protect undocumented immigrants' spouses of american citizens. maryland governor wes moore is pardoning more than 175,000 marijuana convictions in his

state. he joins us ahead to discuss his new executive order. you're watching "morning joe." we are back in 90 seconds. joe." awere back in 90 seconds. custd my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with all the money i saved i thought i'd buy stilts. hi honey. ahhh...ooh. look, no line at the hot dog stand. yes! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty.♪

go to california, we have 100,000 people show up. i said why are we losing california? why would we lose it? it's so corrupt. the whole election process, it's a rigged deal. we have a rigged country. we have rigged elections. the radical left democrats

rigged the presidential election in 2020 and we are not going to allow them to rig the election in 2024. >> former president donald trump in that speech in detroit on saturday still claiming the last election and the whole country are rigged against him. joining me now long time democratic legal adviser who co-chaired former president barack obama election on administration, bob bauer. he is the author of a new book entitled "the unraveling, reflections on politics without epics and democracy in crisis. >> bob, i hope you don't take this wrong when i say we are both kind of old. and we have seen a lot. we have been around a lot. i remember when it first came to washington, d.c. i watched tim russet on "meet the press" and he would be interviewing a guy you worked for and rolling the camera,

those guys, it was a thrill manila and 15-rounder. afterwards, as you know very well, they were friends and they would go and talk about how they got things done. talk about. i know your book focuses on this. the damage. the scar tissue on american democracy that we have both seen the past 30, 45 years. >> i'm not going to dispute your point about my age, joe. but let's say we are getting on. maybe not old but getting on. >> getting on. >> getting on, absolutely. i recall when i was younger vigorous fight that was reported in the paper between hubert humphrey and barry goldwater and they then walked out of the chamber arm in arm and that tolerance for the other side, that understanding there are disputes but when the disputes are resolved, we are citizens of the same country is absolutely critical to the flourishing of this democracy, to the

protection of democratic values. and in this book, what i'm attempting to do is to show that at bottom, a democratic politics, ethical democratic politics respects difference. i notice in your last seg the discussion of lies. it respects a difference between truths and falsehood. parties do puff up and they argue their cases strenuously and sometimes each side finds exaggerations and viewpoints expressed. at the ends of the they respect each other's opinion. when that collapses the relationship is strained. those of us in politics have an ethical responsibility to attend to our institutions in choices made every day. >> bob, i'm old, too. so i remember those days. but when did this unraveling

begin? do you trace it to, like, a moment, to a figure, a person? when did this change happen? and so, you know, imagine a republican and democrat walking off the senate floor today with their arms around each other. when did this happen? >> i've observed over the course of my career a striking difference. i got into politics shortly after the watergate affair. i graduated from law school and, at that time, there was still the basis for that sort of dialogue and a deep belief that it was a necessity and something those in public life owed the public, owed the voters. and that has dissipated. i understand there are different points of view on how that happened. the key thing is that we have to get back to an appreciation of the ethical dimension of boxes and these choices that are made every day to lie or not to lie,

so respect or not to respect an adversary, to respect or not respect the law. to respect the difference between the public and the private, that public office is a public trust and not an opportunity for private political or other gain. these are critical tenets that underlie the flourishing of the democracy and we have to get back to that. but i understand that there are significant disagreements about how we got to the point where we are today. >> michael steele, proving how divided we are, we can't even figure out -- both sides can't even figure out like what began the great divide. if you talk to most conservatives, i'm sure you and me and the past we look 1987 and bourquing of robert bourque and just completely destruction of his character before he even got out to have his hearings. you talk to a lot of democrats and they would talk about the class i game in with newt

gingrich who hyperpartisan and personalized things, still engaging and just a great exaggeration to get his points through. and so even what caused the great divide is still debatable, but those are two good places to start, aren't they? >> yeah, they are. in fact, joe, i think -- i mean, is a fascinating space for me a while in trying to contextualize this moment that we see with the unraveling of the republican party and our unraveling of our discourse some of the things you and i would stand in alliance against the mika of the world on a policy difference, right? so you have this conservative view of america and a liberal, traditional liberal view of america. that space was a safe

battleground for a lot of our politicians. but something changed. and, bob, that change is at the core of what began the unraveling. the combination of forces, i would think, that the pressure to get power, to hold power, up against the pressure to do good public policy. the last big public policy effort, you know, under lyndon johnson and the great society effort, had some of the underlying fabric around policy, but also stoked this idea that, well, we need to get the power back. how do you see these elements continuing to shape the unraveling of american political discourse to the point that it is now done so amongst citizens? one thing the politicians have -- now the citizens -- should also be a part of this

unraveling. >> citizens respond to leadership and if you have leaders, for example, who completely ignore the difference between truth and falsity, who believe that their political adversaries are their enemies and they are not just to be defeated at the polls, they are to be destroyed, then citizens understand politics in a completely different way but it's not a democratic politics. it is politics. it's about vying for power but it's not a democratic politics in a small sense. your clip at the beginning which reveal yet again a refusal to accept the outcome of elections, the suggestion that an election could -- has to be rigged if one side wins and the other side loses and the only explanation for the victory of the one and the loss of the other is rigging. all of that breathes in the citizens that the politics is corrupt and that the constitutional framework within which we conduct that politics is itself somehow wanting, that

we are not committed to shos -- hose those values. that is something the citizens cannot hear and so, again, it falls to everybody in a position of responsibility in politics, in government, to think about the choices they make every day that bear on whether we have a healthy or unhealthy democratic politics in this country. >> you know, bob, i was -- it's interesting. i say maybe it was bourque? we came in with gingrich. i was a conservative guy and most democrats thought i was out of my mind. every time i was sitting on the floor i was sitting with democrats. john lewis and i would travel home together more times than not. he called me his travel buddy.

bill del hunt, god rest his soul, i just loved bill so much. you name it. like the most liberal people were good friends with elijah, my gosh. in my case one of the most conservative people in congress, guess what. when we needed to do something bipartisan, i'd go to harold ford and i'd sign on to one of his bills and harold would sign on to one of my bills and we would do something together in the middle of impeachment, for god's sake. we passed a long-term care bill. we could disagree strenuously and this was 2000 and 2001 and we will be close friends. >> those debates can be joy from one side and disappointment for

another. the key is to recognize that the base continue. you might win one day, you lose the next. that is the wail the system operates. >> right. >> failure to recognize that and to recognize the humanity and good faith of the fellow citizens, the humanity and good faith of fellow leaders, the failure to do so that is -- strikes at the very heart of democratic self-governance. what you just described is absolutely critical to the way our politics has to be conducted and the opposite is extraordinarily damaging to it. >> so, bob, elsewhere in the book you reveal that you played donald trump during joe biden's debate prep. we have another debate on the horizon in a week or so's time. my two questions for you, first, are you going to reprise that role and be trump again? secondly, what other counsel would you give to biden as he prepares for this moment? >> well, i can't speak to the advice that i would give to the president in debate prep or any

other context. unfortunately, as you can imagine, i can't actually speak to debate preparations. that won't be appropriate for me to talk about. but that episode that i recounted in the book was one that i really enjoyed telling. it was an experience that -- i've done other debate preps before and played other roles like that -- that's, again, part of the process. people coming together to hear candidates debate with each other, put themselves before the american public, lay their views out and competing visions out. i thought it was a high privilege to have an opportunity in 2020 to participated. i know that sounds a bit evasive but i'm sure that is what i'm operating under. >> i think understand why. >> a bit evasive? come on, bob! >> i think i understand why. the new book is "unraveling reflections on politics without ethics and democracy in crisis." bob bauer, thank you very much

for coming on the show. >> thank you. a pleasure. >> thank you so much. >> appreciate it. more than 100,000 maryland residents will now have cannabis-related convictions pardoned after governor wes moore signed an executive order yesterday that wipes the slate for 175,000 marijuana convictions and makes maryland the first state in america to issue mass pardons on cannabis paraphernalia related charges. maryland's legalized marijuana after the state letter passed a constitutional amendment on that. wes moore joins us now and part of the president biden's campaign advisory board. this is historic. thank you for joining us. tell us about the mass pardons. who is this going to impact? and why you did it.

>> well, you know, we did it because this is about both moral justice and economic justice. and the reason i bring up both of those two things is, you know, maryland voted that we should have a recreational cannabis market. in fact, we voted by 70% margin that we were going to this. my campaign is working and rolling out what many to be the most questionable and smoothest rollout we have seen of a cannabis rollout inside of our state. we are 174 new social equity licenses and people now have the ability to sell legally cannabis but also we know, which is a historic number, but, at the same time, we know this, you did not talk about the benefits of legalization if you're not willing to wrestle with the consequences of criminalization. we still had tens of thousands, over 100,000 people who still had cannabis charges and so when we say from a moral perspective, you cannot continue to have

people who have records for something that is now legal and a multibillion dollar industry having an ability to get jobs and having an ability to go to school and an ability to get a home. at the same time, it's an economic imperative. i was with someone named shiloh yesterday who had for years a misdemeanor cannabis charge allowing him not to get steady work. he had one job and fired on the second day because he didn't have a background check because of a cannabis misdemeanor check which is now legal. this was economical for the state and important for the individuals who received the gubernatorial pardon but also this was really important when came to obtaining a moral course for how maryland was going to operate and how maryland was going to lead. >> governor, sam stein here. i was going to you about maggie rogers. i saw the video of it. but we are going to stick on topic today. >> she is a good maryland girl!

>> yes, she is. for sure. look. what doing in maryland, obviously, on marijuana is, to a degree, something that the biden administration has tried to do nationally which is just essentially lower the temperature around it and get rid of the harsh penalties for use of cannabis. but i'm wondering as you take these practice steps to normalize cannabis use, is there more the feds can and should be doing on that front as well? not j you decriminalization but looking more toward the legalization elements? >> yes. and i applaud the biden/harris administration because we have been able to do things that is important to this cause like moving cannabis from a schedule one to a schedule three drug. there is no reason that something like cannabis should have had the same classification as heroin. you know? another synthetic drugs. that was actually an important step about the way that society looks at it and also urging governors to be able to take

this look like. and the thing that i would continue to tell people is if you're wondering whether or not you should do this, if you're wondering whether or not this should happen in your states, i would say this -- listen to your people. listen to what they are telling you. keep your ear close to the ground because that is exactly what we did in the state of maryland. when we put it up for a referendum we saw overall whelmingly the people of our state wanted this done and when we were pulling together the package what is the largest mass pardon in u.s. history for cannabis, for misdemeanor cannabis charges, we actually brought everyone around the table. we had law enforcement and activists and community members and we had people who were involved in business and in the industry. everybody had a seat at the table. so for anyone wondering how you go about doing this or whether or not this is a good thing, i think you should do what we did in maryland. listen to your people. and they will tell you what the right direction to go in is. >> governor, michael steele here. good to see you begin, sir. i hope everything is going well

for you. >> good to see you. >> yes, indeed. so this effort is unique, as you said, on so many fronts. i have a two-parter for you real quick. the first is what other safeguards in edition to opening up the cannabis market in maryland, 174 new licenses, for example, what other safeguards has the state taken to under introduce this market in a safe way? because, you know, there are still families and communities that are concerned about this expansion of cannabis, this effort to clear the records is applauded and supported, but there is also the other side of it. so there is that. the other piece is the celebration that all marylanders had when you declared the harbor open and the key bridge project under way. talk a little bit where things are with that effort as well.

you've got these twin episodes in your administration which really stand out and stand up i guess in many ways, your leadership. talk about how you're addressing these two moments for your administration. >> thank you so much. when it came down to roll out the new cannabis market we knew it needed to do transparent and safe and fair and the guidelines we looked at. in addition to making sure that we had real safety guidelines -- this was part of the whole point of actually regulating it and when you're turning it into a recreational market is part of the challenge people had no idea what they were getting and people had no idea what was inside the materials. by being able to do this in a proper way, by being able to do it in a controlled way, you're actually to take part of the revenue and actually move it towards safety criteria and move it towards support systems for families.

you're able to actually do creative things with ways that can help it to be not just a more accepted but a safer way of integration into society and we said access to capital took people trying to enter into the industry. part of the problem with cannabis and other industries is the friends and finally family round. not everybody has the same friends and not everybody has the same family. to add capital to that frame to make sure we had an questionable distribution in the way we looked at the cannabis rollout. i appreciate the words about the opening of the port of baltimore. you're right. i remember that first morning when at 2:02, my phone rang and we saw a ship the size of the eiffel tower that was now caught in the river with tens of thousands of tons of steel and water. i asked people, how long is this

going to take? and people were telling us this could take up to a year. i said it can't. i got tens of thousands of port workers. i cannot tell them this is going to take a year to get them back on the job. so people worked around the clock and i'm so thankful for the measure of coordination, for how the private sector stepped up, the federal government stepped up, the state coordinated with all of these various units and what they told us was going to take 11 months, we got done in 11 weeks and the port of baltimore is back and moving right now and it's a beautiful sight. >> amazing. >> all right. maryland governor wes moore, thank you. good luck against the yankees tonight. thanks for with being with us. >> we got this. go o's. >> from the 1980s to the covid-19 pandemic. dr. anthony fauci will join us to reflect on his career as the nation's top physician. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

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for the first time in 25 years, vladimir putin is making a state visit to north korea. putin and kim jong-un, also meeting up bouzer from

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at the end of the speech, i will be taking some questions. this is different than joe biden. he doesn't take any questions. ♪♪ >> i guess had he didn't take the questions. he just left.

>>s i was saying to you that it's interesting that some of these outlets will print something in the morning. they know it's a lie. and they ran it any way. here donald trump says something. usually he lies and says i'm putting out my health care plan in two weeks. going to be building the largest skyscraper in moscow in two weeks. i'm going to be going to the moon that's fuelled only by vitamin c and pix sit dust in two weeks. so two weeks come and people forget. he lies at the fwining of the speech. i'll be answering your questions and then he just walks off.

he just lies. >> totally. >> he walks off the stage. >> doesn't care. >> a whole new world. >> no one checks because -- >> eight years new. >> the biden campaign is up with that social media post calling out donald trump for saying he would take questions after a speech in detroit over the weekend and leaving without doing so. jonathan louisiana mere and michael steele is st will us. and joining us is mike barnacle. he leaves unexpectedly a lot. >> but it's an irish good-bye. >> you're staying until 10:00, mike. >> you're the first person that goes and buys dimestores and buy

extra jackets so you can put them on the back of chairs and say i'll be right back. >> thank god for costco. many blazers are left on chairs. you look at the blazer and say, where is he? he'll be back, had he had left his jacket here. >> also joining us amanda carpenter. good to have you. so top democratic strategist james carrvill is out with a new prediction about whether or not he thinks donald trump will show up to the presidential debate next week. >> if i was a gambler, i would take my money trump doesn't show up. >> you don't think trump is coming? >> i don't know. but if i think he's going to wake up and decide he just hike he said he was going to testify at his trial. he didn't put on a defense. let him show up. i wouldn't be shocked, but i

certainly would not be surprised if he gave me even money. he's a no show. i'm just not going to do it. >> i don't think the guy -- i love listening to james. that's james being james, but i don't think donald trump can avoid a microphone, lights and an audience of tens of millions of people watching him. >> no, he will be there. but the odds are -- i would bet he goes high wire when his microphone is shut off. i bet he'll act up over that, no doubt. he's going to show up. >> any reporting that would line up with what they said or are they planning ahead? we talked about joe biden prepaing. donald trump doesn't prepare for anything. his way of doing business and politics is just showing up and

seeing what happens. >> yeah, there's no reporting to back that up. trump has started to prepare for the debate. they are not claiming he's doing rehearsal, but he's going through some possible lines of attack and defense. but there's an expectation he will be there. but what carrvill said, some democrats have been saying all along that they fooel like trump will be the one to back out of this. he has too much to lose in part because he's ahead of of the polls. but has been consistently ahead inment some of the battleground states. i don't think that's the case. for both of these men will be there. it looms large for both. he did during the state of the union. he has in other big moments, the

biden campaign feels like this is a real opportunity to change the trajectory of the race and to remind voters, hey, donald trump, you haven't listened to him in four years. here he is. trump hasn't debated in a long time. there's a chance his performance may not be strong at all. >> this is going to be nerve racking debate for both sides. wondering if they are fighters, if they are going to get through the 15 rounds. there are going to be a lot of staff members on both sides, a lot of americans sort of holding their breath, whistle thing past the graveyard, however you want to call it. what do you think? give us a tell of the tape. what are you look hadding for this this debate? what to you think we're going to see? what do we need to look for as viewers? >> let me put on the record. the political inen sentives are

not there for donald trump to do this let alone to your point about wanting to get in front of tens of millions of people. he had that chance during the primary. he could have owned the stage or wiped the floor. he didn't take it. it's not aen strength for him. he know it is. the hype particularly, and this is the thing to look for, a very important aspect of this debate is not what these candidates say. but how these candidates react to this environment with no audience. it's a beautiful thing to not have the name whooping and hollering and cat calling by these people sitting there for one side or the other. donald trump feeds off of that. that's his energy. that's his safe space when he says something stupid. he knows he's got a group of

people that will be sitting there applauding. that was so wonderful. that's so wonderful. and then helping to take down his opponent. that goes away. shutting off the mic, he will still talk, but the energy is different. so i'm looking for how trump reacts in this space where he has been checked by not having an audience to back up his lies and the silliness and to be able to deal with joe biden, who has his own faults and weaknesses, but not like donald trump. so that's going to be an interesting space to see how that plays out with the silence of the audience. >> that is such a fascinating point. it also underlines the point that donald trump has been able to control his environment. he's always had screaming fans. he's always had people the that doesn't matter what he says how stupid it is, he can talk about boats and sharks and electric batteries, all these other things, and he will have people

laughing, cheering, doing all of that. you look the at the apprentice. we talked about that. they'll tape him for hours and hours, edit it down, get the best three minutes here, the best two minutes there, nothing wrong with that. that's how tv works, unless you do four-hour shows like we do. but this is going to be him out of a safe space. and get a glimpse of what that looks like without cameras last week when it was reported that when he went before the ceos, which should have been a friendly group, they were really surprised by how many steps he had lost. surprised by some of the crazy things he said, surprised that at times he just was rambling on and on. and really went off topic. so there's a lot to lose for donald trump in this debate. just like there's a lot to lose for joe biden. so high stakes for both.

>> just counter to the quietness of the studio that a the lot of people think donald trump will be jarred by, the apprentice tapings, he's been in quiet studios at a table with people, waiting for the shot to come. he knows a lot more about what it feels like to be talking with someone in a media environment, to be creating content, to be doing a show than most people in congress. i just wouldn't underestimate. i think he might be quite comfortable. we'll see. there's a new piece for the atlantic entitle theed "the motivated ignorance of trump supporters", and in it he writes, quote, motivated ignorance refers to willfully blinding one self-to facts. it's choosing not to know. in many cases, for many people, knowing the truth is simply too costly, too psychologically painful, too threatening to their core identity. if they are presented with

strong arguments against a position they hold or compelling evidence that disproves the narrative their embrace, they will reject them. doing so fends off the psychological distress of the realization that they have been lying to themselves and to others. it's one thing to embrace a conspiracy theory that is relevant only to you and your tiny corner of the world. it's entirely different matter if the falsehood you're embracing and promoting is venomous, harming others, eroding cherished principles, promoting violence, and subverting american democracy. a generation from now, and probably sooner, it will be obvious to everyone that trump supporters can't claim they didn't know. >> they can't claim they didn't know. >> this is incredibly powerful. amanda, take it away.

this, to me, is the fear i have about trump's strangle hold on our democracy is that it's a cult. >> i'm not surprised that peter got it exactly right in the atlantic there, but it actually gets to the discussion about the rnc debate. i was practically jumping out of my seat. i'm not a betting woman, but i would happily take the other side of james carrvill's wager for the exact point that donald trump will not turn down an opportunity for confrontation. when it comes to messaging to his supporters, a presidential debate, even though it's the earliest one in history, is a huge opportunity to speak on the mass level. i'm almost certain, i will take the bet had he will use it as an opportunity to reenforce the lies about joe biden that he has been actively telling. if you look at every big media opportunity, the cnn town hall earlier this year, he use it is to do a few things.

one, reenforce the 2020 big election lie, and number two, promote the lie that the department of justice is being unfairly weaponized against him by puppeteer joe biden. the biden campaign better be preparing for trump to directly confront him about that. because as you noted, no one understands how to play to the cameras like donald trump. yes, his microphone maybe muted, but he is going to go hard at him and try to use the power of dynamics of the stage to knock joe biden off his game. i wouldn't be surprised if he also hits him in the gut with the hunter biden stuff. the gop understands that that gets to the heart of joe biden. i just don't think there's any chance that donald trump says, you know what, i'm not going to use that opportunity that's laid before me to directly reenforce those lies to his supporters. >> stand back and standby. >> exactly.

had he does. he's a disrupter. and he is going to figure out, cut off the microphones and do whatever you want to do, he's a disrupter. he doesn't really know the facts of the issues well at all, so he has to disrupt. he has to shock. your father wrote about the soviet union. they can't play by the rules that america plays by because old soviet union was inferior intellectually, militarily, economically, politically, they are inferior in every way. that's donald trump. he cannot debate joe biden on the merits. so he's going to be a disrupter. the biden teem better be prepared for donald trump to -- what would a disrupter do. cut off my microphone, i'm going to walk over to your microphone and i'm going to get in your face. he could do that. he could do-- imagine the ten most disruptive things that

donald trump could do and he's probably going to do those very things because he doesn't play by the rules. if the biden camp goes into this thinking he's going to play by those rules, they are going to be shocked. the night is going to end badly for them. i wanted to go back to pete's excellent column in the atlantic. because there's been hand ringing. how do we understand the trump voters. what do we need to understand? what is this about? this is the forgotten working class man and woman. this is about people who are knowingly supporting a guy that's spewed authoritarian talking points a guy who twists the facts, bends the facts, lied about the last election. and i wrote it down. you talked about how they don't like -- if they are presented

with strong arguments, compelling arguments, compelling facts, they will push away. i would say it's even more than that. they are allergic to basic facts. donald trump lies all the time. they are allergic to -- let's take the big lie, for instance. mike johnson knows it's a big lie. lindsey graham knows it's a big lie. they have 63 federal judges and courts that said this is a big lie. they had a supreme court that said this is a big lie. they know. even republican officials are saying from georgia to michigan, this is a big lie. they know. so what do they do? they go to websites that are funded by qatar or tv networks

funded by qatar or funded and run as a front for a chinese religious the cult. they know what they are doing. at this point, the gig is up. they know exactly what they are doing. they are spreading lies in support of a guy who wants to be an authoritarian leader. >> pete came up with a marvelous phrase. motivated ignorance. and the motivated ignorance of donald trump has been a lifetime habit. a lifetime habit. he's been operating on motivated ignorance since he's been 17, 18 years of age. he did it all through his business career, all through his life nearly every day. in politics, he's done it consistent cannily. ly. he's developed a cult around him. now part of that cult, i would think given human nature, you have to feel badly for because they are people who bought into what trump says in his motivated

ignorance thinking it was going to help improve their lives. it hasn't. and that's the way you defeat donald trump. point out the facts of people's existence. the big tax breaks he always the talked about. did it help someone maing $100,000 a year? no, it helped people making millions of dollars a year. so now in the debate, for the first time, that motivated ignorance is going to be displayed publicly in an empty hall. there's going to be no crowds saying, yeah, that's great, applauding if he does walk towards president biden's podium. if he does the crazy things he's apt to do. it will be met by silence, and he will be told to go back to his podium. his microphone will be shut off. that, i think, is going to be the most interesting aspect of this debate. i don't know whether you agree or not, but the fact that he's isolated, no crowds, no

applause, no feedback. >> i do agree with that. we don't know what is going to happen, but i recall all the details from white house aids who recount in great detail how trump confronts people and approaches every conversation as essentially as an exercise in power dialics. if you believe details about how he swears at people, uses physical presence and personal conversations in the oval office, in mar-a-lago, which i do because i have no reason not to believe them, because they are so entirely consistent, i do believe he will be able to manipulate the stage in that way. i don't think personally he will be intimidated by the lack of a cheering because this is how he acts. you can't say he's not authentic. he's authentically aggressive. he's authentically authoritarian. so i don't think he's going to have any problem trying to steam roll the debate moderators, joe

biden, and it will be an exercise for them to see how to constrain him. >> and jonathan lemire, i want to underline mika's point that nobody knows tv better than donald trump. >> the cameras are there. >> he has spent hundreds of hours in a quiet studio. and did quite well, knew how to play the camera, knew how to play the angles, and i have been thinking all along that this would hurt donald trump, but mika maybe right. >> just real quick. it's not just the hundreds of hours doing the apprentice. he doesn't practice. if the camera is on, he's

dangerous. he goes for broke. if you look at his depositions, look at his depositions, those were onment camera. super awkward with the attorney of e. jean carroll,ly the talen trump was distasteful, gross. he was anything he wanted to be in that deposition because a camera was on. it causes him to light up in the most base ways, in my opinion. i don't think he's afraid of anything. in his mind, he hears a huge crowd. like coo coo, he hears a huge crowd in his mind. he can make anything happen. jonathan? >> there's never been an american politician who has been in front of a camera more or more at ease in front of a camera than donald trump. that's certainly clear. the biden theory, they watched him do that town hall a year or so back when he ran rough shot

and was cheered on by a bunch of trump-loving republicans. that's what made them think, when we meet with this guy, we don't want a crowd. the other part is because the biden team wants this it to be as much as it can be. a policy-focused debate. they feel like donald trump will fall short in trying to discuss policy or he will reveal policies that are out of step with the american people. so the biden team feels good about the fundamental thes, about the setting of this race, but we have seen trump in debates before at times to deliver strong performances. the primaries he was unquestionably the winner of most of those debates, but we have also seen him strutting until this format. in 2020 when he completely bombed that first debate, likely sick with covid at the time, and that really helped biden in the race. what is very clear, there's a lot of wild cards here. neither man has done a debate in quite some time.

it's early, but it's a significant inflection point in the campaign. >> it really is. and again, you're so right. he's done this so often, we talked about practice. he doesn't have to practice. the guy doesn't need to practice at all between fou and the debate. he can just walk out there because he's spent his whole life doing this. i think personally, him practicing would be a waste of time. >> editor at the nonpartisan group protect democracy amanda carpenter, thank you very much for being on this morning. we appreciate it. we'll see you soon. and still ahead on "morning joe," keir simmons gives us an update on the war in ukraine, which has killed hundreds of thousands of soldiers. and more insight on the allied support for ukraine from nato secretary general jens stoltenberg. and hakeem jeffries will be our guest. you're. watching "morning joe." we will be right back. morning j. we will be right back.

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28 past the hour. a beautiful shot of the capitol in washington, d.c. nato's secretary general is in the nation's capitol today to visit congress and to meet with secretary of state antony blinken. yesterday he met with president biden at the white house and will speak with him lye in just a moment. his trip comes ahead of next month's nato summit set to be held in washington, where the war in ukraine will once again be the main focus of the gathering. chief international correspondent keir simmons has an update on the war and how it's being viewed inside russia. >> reporter: president putin doubling down on war. he will meet with kim jong-un, who supplied russia with weapons, declaring he would agree to peace, but only if ukraine meets demands like giving up territory. that was condemned by world leaders at a peace summit in

switer is land this weekend, mostly recommitting to supporting ukraine in its fight. putin's confidence stands from the backing of many russians. on the streets of moscow, this russian man told nbc news, peace with ukraine now only on our terms. this woman's view repeated again and again. any war ends with peace talks, i don't think there was anyone to talk to at the moment. opposition in russia has been crushed, but the only independent polling organization tells us most russians want peace, but don't want to lose. >> they don't want to be at a loss after all the vitims and all the losses. >> reporter: and since russia's new war economy has been a boost for some. >> people do think the war is something bad, but it helps in some respects. it helps families level up their income and their social position.

>> reporter: the agony on the front lines with hundreds of thousands dead is a long way from most of russia while it has been lived by ukrainians every day since putin's illegal 2022 invasion. this weekend's peace summit, u.s. national security adviser jake sullivan vowing to keep supporting president zelenskyy. >> what this summit has done is defined what the core character, the core foundation of the peace looks like. no nation should be allowed to conquer another nation by force, perioded. >> reporter: but important u.s. partners and allies like turkey, india and saudi arabia refuse to sign up to a final communique, that nbc news has learned left out earlier proposals of talks with moscow. one south african official told us you don't achieve peace through war, just more war. both ukraine and russia, there's little hope for a way out and victory for either side looks a

long way off. >> there is no resistance or no considerable resistance against the war. >> nato secretary general jens stoltenberg joins now. thank you for joining us, sir. i think my first question will be where keir simmons ended his piece, talking about the war being a long way off. how does this end and what is the timeline? >> wars are, by nature, unpredictable. what we do know is that the only way to end this war in a way that ensures that ukraine continues to be a sovereign independent nation in europe is that president putin has to realize he will not win on the battlefield. his aim is to control ukraine. we need to support ukraine in a way that convinces him he has to sit down and accept that ukraine

remains a sovereign independent nation. military support to ukraine is actually the way to ensure that there's lasting peace in ukraine where ukraine continue to be a sovereign nation. >> mr. secretary general, we had the admiral on with jonathan lemire earlier. he was talking about how vladimir putin has ended up being the biggest promoter of nato in that, of course, nato expand, more powerful than ever before, and also talked about the individual countries that are all now that most of them are now putting 2% or more towards their defense budget. long a goal, but something very few did until after the invasion of ukraine. talk about the strength of nato today. >> what we've seen is that nato allies, since 2014, because that

was actually when this war started, that was when russia illegally annexed crimea and took control of the eastern donbas. so since then, nato the allies have implemented the biggest enforcers of a collected defense. and yesterday we published new numbers showing that 23 allies this year will meet the target of spending 2% of gdp on defense. that's actually up from only three allies in 2014, when we made the pledge. it's a doubling of the last four years. this is significant. it demonstrates that european allies are really stepping up, reducing the burden on the united states. >> secretary stolten berg, this is arguably among the 32 nato nations, their finest hour in adheing together cohesively against the russian invasion. but my question to you is, among

those 32 nations, what do you think is the level of apprehension for a potential return of donald trump to the presidency? >> nato is the alliance of 32 different countries with different political parties in power. from both sides of the atlantic. i think the strength of nato is that despite differences, we have always been able to unite around our core to protect and defense each other other. i expect that to be for the united states. the united states remains a strong ally partly because this is in the national security interest of the united states and there's strong bipartisan support for nato in the united states, and the main criticism from former president trump and others has not mainly been against nato, but it has been against nato allies not spending enough money on nato. that has significantly changed.

so i think we have a better story to tell the about european allies taking their share. >> so in just a few weeks time, nato will hold their annual summit in washington. it comes with a series of elections in the united states and elsewhere and other member countries. ukraine will be front and center. tell us what else will be on the agenda during this very important meeting. >> it will be ukraine, but also the importance of investing more as nato allies do, but also the fact that it matters for the security of the all nato allies, before it was the idea it was about russia. then chinas was something we need to be concerned about. we see in ukraine that that's wrong. china is the main country propping up russia's war efforts in ukraine. therefore, china matters for european security. we see that putin today is

receiving a lot of support from north korea. so what happens in europe matters for asia. and therefore, if putin wins in ukraine, it's not only a win for him, it's a win for president xi and north korea. they want to see us fail. we must as nato allies prevent putin from succeeding in ukraine. >> nato secretary general jens stoltenberg, thank you for come ing on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you. coming up, house speaker mike johnson visited donald trump at mar-a-lago yesterday as the two plot a path to victory for republicans in november. we'll talk to hakeem jeffries about trump's potential impact on congressional elections and the work being done by democrats to flip the house. "morning joe" will be right back.

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donald trump and his allies continue to go after one of the most extreme republicans in congress for not being sufficiently loyal to the former president. yesterday trump phoned into a rally for the primary opponent

of virginia's bob good. the chairman of the house freedom caucus, after endorsing governor ron desantis in this year's republican presidential race, the congressman tried to get back in trump's good graces last month by showing up outside the new york city courthouse to support him during his trial there. >> did that work for him? >> despite that, trump endorsed goods' opponent a few days later writing that the congressman's efforts were too late. outside groups with ties with former house speaker kevin mccarthy have also spent millions of dollars in support of goods' opponent after the congressman voted to remove mccarthy from the speakership last year. the virginia primary is today. >> jonathan, i would say the odds are not good for the congressman good, especially if

you look at 2022. let's look at pennsylvania. dave mccormick would have most likely won that pennsylvania senate seat, and trump turned on him, supported dr. oz.. maybe because of tv or something else. he's done it time and again. in so doing, he's cost republicans control of the senate firefighter the last two terms. that said, his endorse the still matters more than anything else to the republican base. >> you just hit it. trump's endorsement record for general elections are spotty. sometimes that's a direct result of who he picks in the primary. but within the gop primary process, he's still king maker. it's very rare that he backs someone and that person then loses in a primary. even in this case,s this is the chair of the house freedom caucus. this is an important figure on the right. someone who is aligned with

trump in just about every way ideologically, but he made the unforgivable sin of back baging ron desantis and made a pilgrim imagine to new york, and that didn't help either. his opponent did as well. so barring real surprise, barring some institutional advantages or a ground game we're not aware of, the congressman would appear to be in real trouble tonight. >> meanwhile, house speaker mike johnson paid a visit to donald trump at mar-a-lago yesterday. >> that's just brutal. why? >> just so he could prove his loyalty. >> did he bring a bible? the pair met with the national republican committee yesterday. >> if you read the bible, you'll be guided -- you'll know exactly what his world view is when it comes to politics. and where jesus said blessed are

those who lie about presidential elections. >> the pair met with the national republican congressional committee chairman to reportedly discuss campaign strategy. >> let's do what donald tells us to do. >> as republicans try to hold on to their razor-thin majority in the chamber. it came day was a trump was greeted with a hero's welcome by gop lawmakers on capitol hill last thursday. look at them all clapping. they are all real close. joining us now is house minority leader democratic congressman hakeem jeffries of new york. i'm curious. when you walk into a room, is it required that your democratic colleagues clap for like two minutes straight for you? >> no, absolutely not. it's a good day if i get a few

seconds of a clap. we are a family, but we work together to make life better for the american people, not to pledge feelty to one another. it's extraordinary to say what's happening on the other side. the bottom line is that president biden and house democrats are going to continue to just simply put people over politics. my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, it's all about donald trump. not the american people. >> leader jeffries, it's just fascinating. historic. i can't remember any time that the article one branch completely was sub misive to the presidency. but here i don't know. you have to help us understand. how do you deal with house reallies, how do you negotiate with housement republicans when

you know that they don't speak for themselves. the article i power, the house speaker, he has no power in and of himself if you come up with an historic immigration bill, trump can just kill it. >> to make sense in the midst of the storm of it all, we know that donald trump is a chaos agent, and the extreme maga republicans are dominated by the chaos caucus. so we have to keep our eye on the prize, which we are willing to find common ground on any issue with our republican colleagues whenever and wherever possible and we have repeatedly demonstrated that in service of the american people throughout the 118th congress. but at the same time, be prepared at all times to push back against their extremism whenever necessary and we have had to do that repeatedly, particularly as it relates to

the house republican effort to try to jam their right wing ideology down the throats of the american people and to continue to undermine a woman's freedom to make her own reproductive health care decisions. >> turning to contentious issue for the democratic party right now, and that's israel's conduct in the war in gaza. president biden has pushed for more military funding to go to israel. we know the prime minister is splat slaited to speak to congress in a few week's time. but former speaker nancy pelosi has come out against this saying she opposes giving benjamin netanyahu this platform. what's your spobs to her? >> speaker of the house and senate majority leader are em the powered to extend an invitation. as per usual custom, once that invitation, decision was made, as has been the case with other

offers to heads of state who are democratic allies of the united states of america in this congress that's meant south korea and india, we have extended that invitation to the head of state in israel. now as i have also indicated, as is the case with any joint address to congress, every individual member, 435 of us, will have to make a decision as to whether it's appropriate for them to attend >> leader jeffries, despite the strong hand of donald trump wielding power over nearly the entire republican party, the house intelligence committee has often been and still is, so far, a place of common sense, cooperation and some bipartisanship. and yet, speaker john, last week he announce his intent to name

scott perry and ronny jackson it to the house intelligence committee. is that going to happen? >> well, unfortunately, pursuant to the rules of the house of representatives, the speaker with respect to the intel committee, as joe knows, has the unilateral authority to make appointments. those appointments are frightening in the context of the irresponsible nature of the behavior of those two individuals, particularly representative perry. if the american people give us the opportunity to govern with the gavels in november, we can assure you a different decision would be made. >> all right. house minority leader congressman hakeem jeffries of new york, thank you so much for coming on this morning. >> thank you. and still ahead on "morning joe," we will take a look at the dangerous heatwave. temperatures in some areas soaring to 25 degrees above

average at this time of year. >> and there is going to be another record-setting year most likely as far as heat goes, and you look at what's happened over the past 20 years. at what point will the climate deniers understand? >> what is going on? >> that we are facing an existential threat here. >> we'll be right back. with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be.

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i think it's time to head to seaside heights, new jersey. >> of course, it is. >> a few minutes before the top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." the official start of summer is hitting the u.s. hard this week with over 70 million americans expected to under extreme heat alerts. according to the national weather service, a so-called heat dome is responsible for the heatwave currently rolling across the country. temperatures could reach as high as 25 degrees above what is typical for this time of year. in many areas, and it's june. out west coast, some parts of arizona are expected to reach 109 degrees. in new york, governor kathy hochul says the national guard will be opening more than 500 cooling centers today and warns, quote, we are going to be seeing temperatures at levels we have not seen in our lifetimes,

adding, this could be a deadly event. and because of the rising temperatures, dozens of environmental labor and health care groups banded together yesterday to file a petition to push fema to declare extreme heat and wildfire smoke as major disasters, just like floods and tornados. if accepted, the move could unlock fema funds to help localities prepare for heatwaves and wildfire smoke by building cooling centers or installing air filtration systems in schools. we will be following that. >> the heatwave continues. the record run of hotter and hotter years, the summers -- i he mean, it continues. these are -- you look over the past 20 years, and i don't want to get this wrong, but the overwhelming majority of those years over the past 20 years the hottest on record. there is quite a run. and we have got to do what we

can to reverse it. by the way, a lot of the problems coming from china. a lot of the problems coming from india. the united states has made great gains over the past 10, 15 years on reducing greenhouse gases, but -- >> can't be the only ones. >> can't be the only ones. still ahead, how the white house is hitting back at those cheap fake videos of president biden being spread across right-wing media. that discussion when "morning joe" returns in just two minutes. kids love summer break,

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voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. i aced it. doc roni johnson, does everyone ronnie johnson? >> i love ronnie johnson. doc ronnie. he gave me the tests. i went home to my beautiful wife malaria and -- [ laughter ] >> trump bragged about passing

one cognitive test and failing another. it's like walking into a glassdoor after the doctor says you have 20/20 vision. >> well, hear is the problem. the sad thing is under maga law, his name is now ronnie johnson. >> oh, my. okay. the late nights having fun with donald trump's latest gaffe. meanwhile, the white house is slamming cheap fake videos spread by right-wing media, which are edited to make president biden look confused, will go through the fight against clips with no context and some edited and misleading. >> she maid a clip from howie kerts 'show on fox news taking people to task for doing that. >> yes, he did. he had guests on that were completely misleading again, but -- >> but again, he did -- he did it nonetheless and it's very important for people being fed a

steady stream of lies to be told by somebody that refuse the media, hey, this is a lie. and howie said what i have always thought, which is, you know, the age issue for both of these candidates, that's a real issue. >> yeah. >> so talk about the issue. you want to talk about age? everybody thinks both of these candidates are older than they are comfortable with. both of them. that said, make those issues. don't make up others. >> and also i think when those on the right try to make it look like biden is out of his mind or "the wall street journal" does a front page piece saying biden is completely slipping and they don't notice at the same time that they are covering biden in this way that is misleading, donald trump is on stage talking about sharks and batteries. >> yeah. >> and really looks like he is slipping, i think the thing that's so, i don't know, surprising is the right word,

but i just say so concerning in the middle of a presidential election is it's a tabloid. i understand it's a tabloid. but the "new york post," the same guy that owns the "new york post" owns "the wall street journal," owns, you know, the fox news, owns "the times of london." let's go down the list. but, you know, the front of their paper deliberately lying about -- this is what howie was talking on fox news, deliberately lying about joe biden. while he was giving up the thumbs up to parachuters. you know, this media ecosystem, it seems more and more focused on just spreading misleading or outright false stories about joe biden. you know, "the wall street journal," who i praised in this space for their new editor. i have really liked the changes at "the wall street journal."

but even their paper a week ago or so in a story that made absolutely no sense, we talked about it on the show already a couple of times, you know, they get kevin mccarthy to lie on the record when there were reports months, you know, in the making that kevin mccarthy always lies on the record about joe biden's mental acuity, then he says the completely opposite thing either on the record to other publications or to his own staff about just how good joe biden is in negotiations. >> yeah, one wonders if there are orders coming from on high about tilting the media coverage from the outlets. the "new york post," take that as an example, they knew better. it had been a day earlier in the aftermath of the moment in normandy, debunked. videos from other angles not just put out by the biden campaign and independent observers saying joe biden was not meandering off. he was going to salute another

parachutist. he came tack to take that photograph. for hours that was a done story and the "new york post" put it on the front page the following morning and tried to turn it into something it was not. yesterday press secretary karine jean-pierre called out the cheap fakes, the twitter account associated with the rnc, the republican national committee, which puts out a lot of these misleading videos amplified by others on the right and the rnc researcher's account said, nope, we are going to keep doing it. flat out said, we don't care. and that's the problem here, that the biden campaign but also those of us in the media are going to have to grapple with between now and november because the speed of these stakes is only increasing. >> well, yeah. and it's -- jonathan's right. you have to start asking are these coming on high when you have the same news organization doing what jonathan said, deliberately lying about a shot, cropping it the way they know

they're lying to the readers. >> right. >> right? and that comes about a week after "the wall street journal" story that they know is misleading. no reasonable person could not know it's misleading. we bring it up just to say this is -- we've now expanded far out from just deepfakes on twitter/x, other social media, tiktok, to now deepfakes or cheap fakes even in the "new york post" and other publications. >> yeah. so we will have a lot more on this coming up. also ahead, just over a week from the first presidential debate. but a long-time democratic strategist is questioning whether trump will even show up. we will play for you those comments. also, dr. anthony fauci will join us live in studio this morning. we'll discuss his time at the white house during the pandemic and much more. we look forward to that interview. >> a lot of people are really, really angry at this guy.

>> why? what did he do? >> for committing his entire life to try to save millions of americans' lives. >> i know. >> really angry. >> how dare he? >> how dare he do that? >> we have former chairman of the republican national committee and co-host of the weekend michael steele with us this morning. associate editor of the "washington post" and msnbc politicalen list eugene robinson is here. deputy managing editor for politics at politico, sam stein along with our very proud celtics fan jonathan lemire. >> we buried the lead. jonathan with his green tie. >> not just green tie, joe. i won't put it on. i won't put it on. i have my green tie and jacket. >> please, actually do. >> gene robinson, why don't you take us through the game, because talking about misinformation when it comes to

boston's sports teams, they don't -- we don't want jonathan to do it. i will get his reaction. take us through the game, gene. >> look, at the beginning the mavericks put up a fight. you know, they had blown out the celtics in that last game. they came out with determination. but the celtics were just too good. they were just too good. they just have too many weapons, and jayson tatum was sensational last night. every time they needed a big play, which, frankly, wasn't for very long in this game because they never trailed. the celtics ran away with this. they were the best team in basketball all season and they really breezed through the playoffs with a couple of off nights. and, you know, that core of tatum and brown and white and jrue holiday, you know, you

hardly even need porzingis, you know? they were just mossively good. congratulations to the celtics. >> yeah, and now let's go for the view from boston from a man who gets his boston sports news from local boston sports stations. jonathan lemire, why is this bad news for the city of boston, for the boston celtics, and, of course, for our beloved red sox? >> am i the nyt pitch -- of this boston sports? no. this was -- this was great. joe, notes. red sox are playing well, 2 out of 3 against the philadelphia, against the yankees. they won last night against toronto. stole nine bases sunday night. i was at that game. great to see. the celtics, this core -- as gene said, tate up and brown have been together search-odd years. they have come close a number of

times. six straight conference championships and got over the hump this year. they earned it. great to watch their evolution. a terrific supporting cast. a coach who was doubted last year, came into his own this year. you know, look, i, as you know, i'm always a nervous boston sports fan. you was anxious most of the game last night. eugene is right. once we got to the middle of the second quarter, this game was over, even though i didn't allow myself to believe it, and now this is their 18th championship putting them one ahead of the lakers for most of all-time. and this is a team that in particular means a lot to the city. parade on friday. >> yeah. >> yeah, you want to -- >> oh? >> the celtics, more championships than us now. of course, that's magic. i will say what an incredible run. by the way, if you want to be grim, to be an atlanta falcons sports fan, speaking of boston.

sam stein, i will go to you quickly here. i know you're a red sox fan. i don't know if you're a celtics fan. red sox are on quite a run. i will tell you a really heartwarming almost made-for-tv hallmark movie story that first game of the yankees/red sox game. alex verdugo, plagued by a mystery illness last year when he was a red sox, wasn't able to run out routine ground balls or run after routine pop flies in the outfield has regained use of his legs as a yankee. how heartwarming. still won two out of three. >> very heartwarming. yeah, but it was better to see the two out of three. >> he lacked only when he had to run out ground balls. anyway, go ahead. >> i don't even -- last year's team -- i'm trying to erase from memory. i know we sort of linger in the .500 zone for a while.

three games over now as lemir said, we have been playing really well. what i like about this year's team is they are scrappy, like, the base running, triples, stolen bases, we are doing the stuff we didn't do last year, which makes it fun. i don't have high expectations. i am enjoying them. last year it felt like a mess all the time. for the long-suffering city of boston, it had been an excruciating five or six years without a championship. so thank god for the celtics pulling it off. on a serious note. i'm happiest for al horford. he had been in the league for 17 years without a championship. great player. coming up, our next guest is taking a look at the erosion of ethics within american politics. long-time political advisor bob bauer joins us with his new book. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

the white house is joining the biden campaign in pushing back against recent video clips going viral that make president biden look as though he is confused during public events and other appearances. white house press secretary karine jean-pierre blasted the use of the misleading videos, which are edited to make the president look bad and then circulated by right-wing media and allies.

take a look. >> they are cheap fakes video. they are done in bad faith and some of your news organizations have been very clear, have stressed that these right-wing -- the right-wing critics of the president have a credibility problem because of the fact-checkers have repeatedly caught them pushing misinformation. i think it tells you everything we need to know about how desperate republicans are here. and instead of talking about the president's performance in office and what i mean by that is his legislative wins where he has been able to do for the american people across the country, we're seeing these deepfakes. these manipulated videos. and it is again done in bad faith. >> that's all they've got. >> the republican account circulating many of the clips responded claiming the videos are unedited and promised -- >> a lie, a lie, a lie, a lie.

>> if something is unedited -- >> it's all lies. >> not showing the whole story. >> how about this? they lie about their lies, which of course you expect liars to lie about their lies. >> we are talking about -- >> they're lying about their cheap fake -- >> they are not mad -- >> "the washington post" -- >> by the way, i got to say this one more time. they are only helping joe biden. they are only lowering expectations. they do it before every state of the union address and afterwards they are so freaked out that biden did well, they say he must have been on cocaine. a sort of, you know, 2024 version of, you know, maybe, you know, eric clapton song in the background. they are doing the same thing for the debate t they lower expectations, they say he is not cogent and then he does a really good job. they are like, wait, what happened? >> "the washington post" has reported about how these cheap fakes were used to attack biden during his recent trip to normandy. and we showed you last week the

trump campaign sharing a clip which appeared to show president biden at the g7 summit wandering off from other world leaders before the italian prime minister comes over to alert him about a group photo. when you see the video from a different angle, you see the whole story. after a skydiver landed in front of the president and other leaders, president biden turns to his left where there are troops. the president appears to say something to them and gives them the thumbs up before he is tapped on the arm by the italian prime minister. as these cheap fakes continue to circulate, there is growing concern that attempts to fact-check them may not be able to come up. as a democratic strategist puts it, the fact check is taking a stroll on the beach. so it's never going to catch up and it's never going to have the same reach. this is the problem. this is why, you know. >> the debate, everything about

this campaign will make somebody who is in support of democracy and perhaps would even choose joe biden over donald trump just in support of democracy never going to have a chance against lies, disinformation and crazy insults. >> never going to have a chance. michael steele, i disagree. they will have a chance. in fact, if you look at donald trump's track record and donald trump's republican party over the last seven years, they are 0-7. so, yeah, maybe the biden team is going to have to work harder. maybe democrats have to work harder. maybe people who like american democracy are going to work harder but they just have to work harder and get the word out not only is the rnc lying, but mainstream media outlets are all in on the lies. >> yeah, i think that's true. i agree with you, joe, a little bit on that. it's the reality is a very stark

one, and it's one that a number of us have been warning about for a while. you know what we haven't brought up in this conversation, which is right there at the tip of the spear, is a.i. the a.i. generated ads where, you know, you can take these events -- we are talking about taking a clip and just showing one angle from it. we have already seen the rnc and the biden -- excuse me, the trump campaign effort play in this space when the rnc put out its a.i. ad last fall, didn't tell anybody it had completely made it up out of whole cloth, and the robocalls using the voice of the president to tell voters not to vote during the new hampshire primary. so you've already seen these practices put in place. the problem is, it's not just one, oh, guess what? fact-checkers can't catch up or keep up. the problem is you have mainstream media outlets that

are, as you mentioned before, "the wall street journal" in their own way perpetuating this. so it gives an air of legitimacy to some of this. before you have a chance to come back and say, wait a minute, "wall street journal," what the hell are you doing? you know that's not what this is. why don't you come clean about it? it's already been placed up on x, right? a platform that elon musk said, hey, lie as much as you want. we don't care ka. and it goes out there. and then what do you do? so you're right. i think the main, people kind of know some of this, but it's going to get worse, not better between now and november, and that's going to be the difficult part, particularly for american media that wants to try to play the balls and strikes, but wind up actually, you know, tipping their hand a little bit from time to time. >> i mean, look,en a in major areas where people get their

news, this lie or this concept about joe biden is being validated. you brought up the howie kurts segment. he played sean hannity doing an entire segment on that scene with paratroopers. that's a show that has a great deal of influence. a lot of people watch it. they get their information and they make decisions based on it. they come to conclusions based on it. they do ten minutes on that, i mean, that's -- i know you might think it's funny. i don't think it's funny. i think that you don't think it matters? i think it matters. >> that's what they do. >> they have a lot of -- >> that's what they do -- >> and a lot of influence. they don't use responsible judgment or facts or news. their goals there are different. the goals there are not to share news with people. >> should we get a breaking news headline down below? >> i hear you.

it's reaching a fever pitch. >> this is what gets me about democrats and people who are center left. like, they are shocked. shocked. the gambling is going on in the institution. instead of figuring out how to shut it down. i am not shocked. this is what they do. this is what they've always done. i mean, am i -- >> i don't remember the "wall street journal" -- >> i shocked? i was going to say, am i shocked at the story and a couple of stories that gotten into "the wall street journal" the day after sorokin reports that donald trump was out of his mind and people were laughing at him and a group of ceos the next morning, you know, you've got "the wall street journal" going, ceos love donald trump coming out -- no, it's just not true. some i -- i'm so shocked by -- i'm shocked by so few things in the political realm anymore, the media realm, that i hate to say

it, but i will say, yes, i am shocked that's happening to the "wall street journal" because what i have always done when i have friends that read the epic times or friends that read other websites that are run by, you know, chinese religious cults or other, you know, funded by qatar, what i always do is go, well, listen, you want the news? go to "the wall street journal." it's a murdoch paper. they've got some of the best reporters anywhere in america and the world. 's that's -- that's sort of changing in the landscape. also when it comes to the "new york post," it's very rich that right wing trumpers have been beating their chests in self-righteous indignation for three and a half years now going, how could you? how could you have ever doubted the "new york post"? and the hunter biden laptop story, how could that have gone through your minds, gone through

your mind, maybe something planted at the "new york post" may have been misinformation when they are showing us exactly why people believe anything dumped at the end of a campaign that favors donald trump is just out and out misinformation. look, again, look at the parachuting story and everything else. the "new york post" is doing that right now. >> i totally agree with that. if you're going to run deceptive videos, the risk you run as an institution that people won't believe you when you get legitimate stuff, right? that's the flip side. i will say there is something that jonathan said earlier in this program and i think it's worth stressing for the fewest, and i think it was underscored by the quote you read from eric shultz, which is this is a two-tiered system. one is that these videos get put out at a remarkable speed. the second is that people who are interested in sort of the factual underpinnings of the video, la thereof, i should say, try to keep up.

jonathan knows in very well. our internal slack channels at politico regularly feature these videos being put in with the question, where is the full clip? what is the context of this clip? and journalists across the country are being forced into this posture. imagine how much time and resources you waste trying to track down the validity of the actual video just to make sure whether it's in context or not. sometimes it is. often it isn't. and that's just the current state of journalism, right? you have to spend a lot of time sussing out whether the videos are real or not. i fear this is going to be the future. like michael steele said, the technology is going to get more and more efficient at making the videos look a more and more real when they are not. coming up, maryland governor moore is pardoning 175,000 marijuana convictions in his state. he joins us ahead to discuss his new executive order. "morning joe" is coming right

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100,000 people show up. i said, why are we losing california? why would we lose it? it's so corrupt, the whole election process. it's a rigged deal. we have a rigged country. we have rigged elections. the radical left democrats rigged the presidential election in 2020 and we are not going to allow them to rig the presidential election in 2024. >> former president donald trump in that speech in detroit on saturday still claiming the last election and the whole country are rigged against him. joining me now, long-time democratic legal advisor who co-chaired former president barack obama's commission on election admission, bob bauer,

he is the author of a new book entitled "the unraveling: reflections on politics without ethics and democracy in crisis." >> you know, bob, i hope this doesn't -- >> important book. >> you don't take this wrong when i say we are both kind of old, and we've seen a lot, been around a lot. i republican when i first came to washington, d.c. i watched tim russert on "meet the press" and he would be interview people, and those guys, man, it was a 15 -- it was a thrilla in manila, a 15 rounder. afterwards, as you know very well, they were friends and they would go and talk about how they got things done. talk about -- and i know your book focuses on it, the damage, the scar tissue on american democracy that we have both seen over the past 30, 35, 40 years. >> well, yes. and joe, i am not going to dispute your point about my age. let's just say we are getting

on. maybe not old, but getting on. >> yeah. >> absolutely. i recall when i was younger vigorous fight that was reported in the paper between hubert humphrey and gary goldwater. when it was over, they walked out of the senate chamber with their arms around each other, arm in arm. and that tolerance for the other side, that understanding that there are disputes. when the disputes are resolved, we are citizens of the same country is the critical to the flourishing of this democracy, protection of democratic values. and in this book, what i'm attempting to do is to show that at the bottom, a democratic politics, an ethical democratic politics respects difference, it respects -- i notice in the last segment the discussion of lies. it respects the difference between truths and falsehood. parties do puff up and they argue their cases strenuously and sometimes each side finds exaggerations in the points of view advanced by the others, but

at the end. day they respect the voters and fundamental importance of conveying truthful information in support of their positions. when that starts to collapse, the democracy is strained. the book i wrote is about how those of us who have a role in politics and government have an ethical responsibility to attend to the health of our democratic intuitions and choices that are made every day. >> bob, i'm old, too. so i remember those days. but when did this unraveling begin? do you trace it to, like a moment to a figure, a person? when did this -- when did this change happen? and so, you know, imagine a republican and democrat walking off the senate floor today with their arms around each other. when did this happen? >> i have observed it over the course of my career, a striking

difference. i got into politics shortly after the watergate affair. i graduated from law school. at that time there was still the basis for that sort of dialogue and a deep belief it was a necessity, that it was something in effect those in public life owed the public, owed the voters. and that has dissipated. and i understand there are different points of view on how that happened. the key thing is that we have to get back to an appreciation of the ethical dimension of politics. these choices that are made every day to lie or not to lie, to respect or not to respect an adversary, to respect or not respect the law, to respect the difference between the public and the private, that public office is a public trust and not an opportunity for private, political or other gain. these are critical tenets that underlie the flourishing of the democracy. we have to get about back to that. i understand there are significant disagreements about how we got to the point where we are today. >> yeah, you know, michael

steele, proving how divided we are, we can't even figure out -- both sides can't even figure out, like, what began the great divide. if you talk to most conservatives, i am sure you and me in the past, we look 1987 so so called borking of robert bork, destruction of his character before he got out to have his hearings. you talk to a lot of democrats. they talk about the class i came in with, with newt gingrich, who, you know, hyper-partisan, personalized things, still -- still engaging in just a great exaggeration to get his points through. and so even what caused the great divide is still debatable. but those are two good places to start, aren't they? >> yeah, they are. in fact, joe, i think, i mean, this is been a fascinating space for me for a while in trying to

contextualize this moment that we see with the unraveling of the republican party. the unraveling of our national discourse around some of the things that you and i would stand in alliance against, you know, the mikas of the world on policy differences, right? so you have this conservative view of america and liberal view of america, and that space was a safe battleground for a lot of our politicians. but something changed. and, bob, that change is at the core of what began the unraveling. it's the combination of forces, i would think, that the pressure to get power, to hold power up against the pressure to do good public policy, the last big public policy effort under

lyndon johnson and the great saturday effort ate at some of the underlying fabric around policy, but also stoked this idea that we need to get the power back. how do you see these elements continuing to shape the unraveling of american political discourse to the point that it is now done so amongst citizens? one thing when the politicians have their battles. now the citizens are also a part of this unraveling. >> the citizens respond to leadership, and if you have leaders, for example, who completely allay the difference or ignore the difference between truth and falisie, believe their political al versaries are enemies ander not just to be defeated at the polls, they are to be destroyed, citizens understand politics in a dmeetly different way. it's not a democratic politics. it is politics. it's about vying for power. it's not a democratic politics in the small d sense.

your clips of the beginning which reveal yet again a refusal to accept the outcome of elections, the suggestion that an election could -- has to be rigged if one side wins and the other side loses, the only explanation is rigging. all of that breathes in the citizenry a belief that the politics is corrupt and that the constitutional framework within which we conduct that politics is itself somehow wanting, that we are not committed to the constitutional values. consider former president trump saying that he thought that the suspension of the constitution of the termination of his guarantees might be necessary for him to succeed and for his politics to prevail. that's something the citizens cannot hear. again it falls to everybody in a position of responsibility in politics, in government, to think about the choices they make every day that bear on whether we have a healthy or an unhealthy democratic politics in this country.

>> you know, i was talking -- you know, it's interesting. maybe bork, maybe we came in -- gingrich -- i remember, you know, i mean, i was a really conservative guy. '95 acu rating. most democrats thought i was out of my mind. yet, you know, every time i was on the floor, i was sitting with democrats. may close friends, harold ford, john lewis and i would travel home together more times than not. he called me his travel buddy. bill dell hunt, god rest his soul. you name it. like the most liberal people were good friends with elijah, my gosh, elijah, the most liberal people were friends with, in my case, one of the most conservative people in congress, and guess what? when we needed to do something bipartisan, i go to harold ford and i'd sign on to one of his

bills. harold would sign on to my bill. we'd do something on long-term care together in the middle of impeachment for god's sake. we passed a long-term care bill. we could disagree strenuously. and this was, you know, through 2000, 2001, and still be really close friends. >> yes. and those debates can end in joy for one side and disappointment in the other. a key is recognizing that the debates continue. you may win one day. you lose the next. that's the way the system operates. and a failure to recognize that and to recognize the humanity and good faith of fellow citizens, the humanity and good faith of fellow leaders, the failure to do that is a -- strikes at the very heart of democratic self-governance. what you just described is absolutely critical to the way our politics has to be conducted, and the opposite is extraordinarily damaging to it.

>> bob, elsewhere in the book you reveal that you played donald trump during joe biden's 2020 debate prep. we of course have another debate on the horizon in just a week or so's time. so my two questions for you would be, first, are you going to reprise that role, be trump again, and secondly, what other counsel would you give to president biden as he prepares for this moment? >> well, i can't speak to the advice that i would give to the president in debate prep or any other context. unfortunately, as you can imagine, i can't speak to debate preparations. that wouldn't be appropriate for me to talk about. but that episode that i recount in the book was one that i really enjoyed telling. it was an experience that -- and i have done other debate preps before and played other roles like that. that's again part of the process. people coming together to hear

candidates debate with each other, put themselves before the american public, lay their views out there, competing visions out, and i thought it was a high privilege to vn an opportunity in 2020 to participate. the average black household in america earns about half the income of the average white household. two of our next guests are digging into why that is and the economic discrimination within america's financial system. that discussion is straight ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back.

america's financial system. america's financial system

more than 100,000 maryland residents will now have cannabis-related convictions pardoned. after governor wes moore signed and executive order yesterday, the order wipes the slate for 175,000 marijuana convictions and makes maryland the first state in america to issue mass

pardons on cannabis, paraphernalia-related charges. maryland legalized recreational marijuana back in 2023 after the state legislature passed a constitutional amendment on that. and maryland governor wes moore joins us now. he is also a member of the biden/harris campaign's national advisory board. thank you so much for joining us. this is historic. tell us, first of all, about the mass pardons. who is this going to impact and why you did it. >> well, we did it because this is about both moral justice and economic justice. and the reason i bring up both of those two things is, i know, maryland voted that we should have a recreational cannabis market. in fact, we voted by a 70% margin that we were going to have a recreational cannabis market. we have been working and rog out what many believe to the most equitable and smoothest rollout we have seen of a cannabis

rollout inside our state. we have 174 new social equity licenses. people now have the ability to sell legally cannabis, but also we know, which is again an historic number. at the same time, we know this. you cannot talk about the benefits of legalization if you're not willing to wrestle with the consequences of criminalization. that we still had a -- we still had tens of thousands, over 100,000 people who had cannabis charges. and so we say from a moral perspective you can't continue to have people who have records for something that is now legal in a multibillion-dollar industry, having an ability to get jobs, go to school, ability to get a home, and at the same time it's an economic imperative, where i was with shilo yesterday, for example, for years had a misdemeanor cannabis charge that has not allowed him to keep steady work. he got one job and was fired on the second day because he didn't pass a background check because of a misdemeanor cannabis

charge. something that is now legal. and so this was really important not just economically for the state. it was really important for the individuals who received the gubernatorial pardon. also, this was really important when it came to a moral course for how maryland was going to operate and maryland was going to lead. >> governor, sam stein here. i was going to ask you about maggie rogers. i saw the video of it. but we are going to stick on topic for the point today. obviously -- >> she is a good maryland girl. >> yes, she is. for what you're doing in maryland, obviously on marijuana is to a degree something that the biden administration has tried to do nationally, which is just essentially lower the temperature around it, get rid of the harsh penalties for use of cannabis. but i'm wondering, as you take these proactive steps to normalize, essentially, cannabis use, is there more that the feds

can and should be doing on that front as well, not just decriminalization, but looking more towards the legalization elements? >> yes, and i applaud the biden/harris administration because they have been able to do things that have been really important to this cause, like moving cannabis from a schedule 1 to a schedule 3 drug. there's no reason that something like cannabis should have had the same classification as heroin. you know, and other synthetic drugs. that was an important step about the way society looks at it and urging governors to take this look. the thing i would continue to tell people, if you're wondering whether or not people should do this, if you're wondering, whether or not they should happen in your states, i would say this, listen to your people. listen to what they're telling you. keep your ear close to the ground. that's what we did in the state of maryland. we saw overwhelmingly that the people of our state wanted this done. when we were pulling together this package to have now what is the largest mass pardon in u.s.

history for cannabis, for misdemeanor cannabis charges, we brought everybody around the table. we had law enforcement and we had activists, we had community members and we had people who were involved in business and in the industry. everybody had a seat at the table, so for anyone wondering how you go about doing this, or whether or not this is a good thing, i think you should do what we did in maryland. listen to your people, and they will tell you what the right direction to go in is rjts coming up, senator gary peters will join us to weigh in on the issues democrats are working on highlighting in november, including reproductive rights. "morning joe" is back in a moment. moment

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coming up, dr. anthony fauci is our guest this morning. he's out with a new memoir,

taking a look back at his career advising seven presidents including donald trump. >> that was sort of a tough one. >> that was a tough one. >> we'll just put it that way. what he's saying about all of that, straight ahead on "morning joe." joe. with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles. mountain climbing tina at a cabin. or tree climbing tina at a beach resort. nice! booking.com booking.yeah.

♪♪ welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast. just a stunning shot, the golden gate bridge, san francisco and points north. it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast. 9:00 a.m. on the east. we have jonathan lemire, who has flowers in his hair on most

mornings. mike barnicle still with us and joining the conversation we have a member of the "new york times" editorial board, mara gay, and msnbc host and contributor to "washington monthly," chris matthews, so good to have all of you on. chris, i would love to start with you. didn't get a chance to talk to you last week about our good friend howard fineman. howard, if you would, somebody that you knew for such a long time, and i actually met through you i think in iowa, caucus night 2004 when we were all together watching the future president, who is the current governor of vermont at the time. howard dean. >> the great thing about howard fineman is he used to come to the show, and right before he would go on the air, you could see him in his notebook scribbling away on his favorite

sources. he took his reporting right to the air in seconds. he never tried to have an opinion. it was always reporting. that was his strength writing for the cover of "newsweek" all of those years. he was a great reporter, and i loved his friendship, too, right to the end. >> you know, the thing i loved, there's so many things i loved about howard, but i still remember so many things that he said to me when i was on set with him, and i still have them filed away and still repeat them time and time again. hopefully most of the time with attribution. we got turned sideways in the 2004 convention. he didn't appreciate something i had said. i forget what it was about john kerry's speech or something. and, you know, he got upset, right, and howard was such a wonderful guy, he spent like the next 20 years. go hey, you know, you okay? i'm okay, howard. i'm okay.

but what i loved about him is that he took extra effort to make sure that the political never got personal. the reporting never got too rough personally, and just absolutely beautiful, wonderful guy. >> i agree. i really like, can we follow up on the question of truth. early this morning i think you showed a clip of donald trump in detroit, was it, saying he won california in 2020. he won california. the lies are unbelievable. they're absolutely beyond belief. he lost by 5 million votes in california. every california republican will tell you he lost california by 5 million votes. we saw him on tape with brad raffensperger, with 12,000 votes, asking to give him 12,000 votes in georgia. the lying never stops, and what mike said this morning about the

motivational ignorance of people. for people to shout their applause, when he lies like that, and those voters, individual voters are going to go to their grave knowing that they cheered lies, because they know those are lies. they know trump lost those states. i have asked people for months, tell me the states he actually won that he didn't get credit for. name one. is it arizona, wisconsin, georgia, pennsylvania, michigan, no, he lost them all. name me the states he actually won. he's out there this weekend saying i carried california by 5 million votes. i'm sorry, he lost. what joe biden has to do, one bit of prep i would give him. when you go in that debate next week, go in there with claims that you could document on tape so that cbs, nbc, all the broadcast networks, cable networks will have at their disposal your claims that can be

proven on tape. women need to be published for having an abortion. i carried california by whatever vote. you got to show, give stuff to the networks this they have to play afterwards and show that biden was telling the truth and trump was lying. like he said that barack obama was born in kenya, and he did that over and over and over again. he lied about that, and the people bought it. why do people buy it? it's motivational ignorance. why do you think obama was born in another country. honolulu, hawaii, everything was on the record, and they buy these lies. these are voters that have to go to their grave, i voted for this liar. how do you do that? how can you be proud of yourself? >> well, people -- >> we have lost joe's mic there. he'll be back in a moment. let's move on to this headline

now, "the washington post" is examining the views of a group of voters in six key swing states who could decide the 2024 presidential election. the deciders, voters who turn out sporadically who are not firmly committed. as a group, these voters do not exactly fit the description of being undecided. in a nation where many voters have made up their minds, these are voters whose decisions about the presidential race are neither firmly fixed or whose participation is fixable. these voters do not fit the description of being undecided. some lean toward a specific candidate. some even say they will definitely vote for the candidate, but aides or voting history or both leave open the question of how they will vote in november if they vote at all. the paper polled these deciders and found most are dissatisfied with the 2024 presidential candidates.

44% are considering voting for trump, and 38% for biden. if robert f. kennedy jr. makes the ballot, 39% say they would consider voting for him. the poll found that both biden and trump are viewed negatively in assessments of how they handle their presidencies, but president biden's disapproval is notably higher, and almost 8 in 10 say they feel worn out by the amount of politics news there is these days. joe, this is such a key part of the electorate. the deciders, one of the defining characteristics, i talked to both campaigns, they're aware of it too. these people don't like trump or biden. they're going to potentially break to a third party candidate or stay home, and hold their nose and who they dislike the least. the biden camp thinks it will be that. >> so many of these people are just not tuned in. obviously we focus in on

everything, all the twists and turns. they live their lives, they focus in on politics, maybe, you know, a day or two before they're going to go vote. it's something that was always hard to figure out when i was in politics. you think everybody's all -- no, it's just at the end of the day, a lot of them just vote based on impressions. >> you know, i have been traveling the country for "the times," the past six months, talking to voters, largely democratic ones or people who have voted for democrats in the past. i was in florida with a state house candidate knocking on doors, and this is a larger group, i think, than we think about. one of the points of concern for the biden campaign is that this group may actually be growing. and so, you know, when you think about kind of the drift from the democratic party, there's a lot of disaffection among black voters, younger voters, even older black voters who i heard from who said i usually vote

democratic but i'm just so exhausted by it all and i don't see change in my life. i'm not sure i'm going to show up this time. there's a question about whether this group of democrats or voters in general is growing, and how to reach them. i think the point of hope, though, for the biden campaign is that most americans who aren't involved in, you know, who aren't politics junkies like we are at this table, they aren't going to start paying attention really until the convention, and so once they really plug in to, oh, donald trump is the candidate, that may actually motivate these voters because they tend to dislike him more than they dislike joe biden. i know the polls are kind of all over the place. but when it really comes down to it, the more people see of donald trump, i do expect that will shift. >> you know, chris, mara just mentioned two words that play an inordinate role in american politics, the first is exhaustion. the second word she mentioned is

hope. the artillery of politics in our age in words fired by different politicians. donald trump's artillery, his usage of words and rhetoric in his presence, i would submit over the past eight or nine years has exhausted the american public. and the exhaustion leads to opponent's going after what he says, which is legitimate and necessary. but the word hope i would submit is not used often enough. elections are about the future. elections are about having hope for your grandchildren or your children, and that seems to be missing today. agree or don't? what do you think? >> yeah, i think that was the great poster for barack obama. the word hope. i still have it in my wallet, in my office. it's still there. people want to know about where you're taking us. i was watching the kennedy nixon

debate just to refresh myself, and kennedy's was all about the future, where he was taking us, the iconic things like the missile gap and taking us to the moon and the peace corps, and all of those positive, chillingly young, youthful hopes for the future. i think that's why obama was elected. i think that there's also the terror factor, which is here's a guy, donald trump, who's talking about wreaking revenge on anybody who disagrees with him. this is soviet style talking. this is a guy who says there will be no real freedom of speech. i remember when i was at the berlin wall at the brandonberg gate, i was asking people, what does freedom mean to you, and this guy said, talking to you. the idea of talking to a political reporter about what's going on in their country, daring to criticize their government. that's american. that's what we do in this country. we criticize our government.

we're allowed to do it. will trump still allow us to do that? i don't think so. he says, i want a dictatorship. i also want to have revenge on anybody who disagrees with me, anyone who says something i don't like. what kind of country would elect that kind of leadership to say it in its face, we're taking on a dictator. i don't think many countries said we want a dictator, they may end up with one, but you don't vote for one and say i want a dictator. this guy is doing that. >> there may be some people, if you said that four years ago, it's trump derangement syndrome. he's not going to be an autocrat, a dictator. he's saying in 2024 he's going to be a dictator on day one. he's going to shoot generals that are disloyal to him. he's going to fire u.s. attorneys that will not throw

his political opponents in jail. he can use seal team 6 to execute political opponents. he's said these things. the last one was actually said by his lawyers in court that donald trump had the right to employ seal team 6 to execute his political opponents and he could not be arrested for it, unless he was impeached first. it's so key that we don't have americans giving up on hope, giving up on their democracy, believing the lies that donald trump and so many of his supporters are saying about america. we're a great country. we're still a great country. despite the fact that donald trump is running around saying that we're an awful country every time he's not sitting in the oval office. and so, speaking of lies, i remember being told by people very close to donald trump in

2020 that he was going to get 20% of the black vote. and there were stories about how donald trump was making end roads with black voters in a way other republicans didn't. according to ap vote cast, i just checked on this, according to ap vote cast, he got 8% of the black vote. 8%. and yet we're hearing time and time again, this year, that he's going to make these historic end roads with black voters. i understand what mara said because i've heard the same, but it's not just older black voters, but especially younger black voters are just exhausted right now. they will tell you the burden is on donald trump and republicans when they start talking about getting 15, 20% of the vote from black americans. i think the burden is on them to actually show that they can do that, and the burden is on the biden team to make sure that they keep some of their most loyal voters at home voting for

them and voting -- making it so it's in their best interest, but, you know, an appearance this weekend at a traditionally black church in detroit, donald trump keeps overstating his support for black voters, and same with trump world, "the washington post" phillip bump points out, quote, on sundays, the church is a black church. on this saturday, less so. the audience was heavily white. bump goes on to write, it's the same strategy that the campaign deployed when they held a rally in the bronx, gathered together a modest crowd and overhyped the scale and importance of what happened. and bump continues, it is true that polling shows trump faring better than he did with black voters in 2020, but the gap between his support and president biden is narrower than it was four years ago, but as is the case with other apparent shifts since 2020, that's more a function of apathy about biden than enthusiasm about trump.

and, mara, it is june. we have a long way to go, two presidential debates and the focus that always comes after labor day, of most americans on who's going to be their next president. >> yeah, you know, i actually think that this is a phenomenon that needs to be better understood. i think that the behavior of black voters, even in just polls right now is quite interesting. it's something i'm trying to get at in my reporting. i think the answer is that we don't know everything yet, and we'll certainly find out more in november. my instinct is that first of all, people forget, black voters are just like all voters. they too can be susceptible to disinformation campaigns. black men, essentially, because there is a divide in polling in their behavior between black men and women and their interest in donald trump. black men may be attracted to trumpism, more than black women. that would be consistent with white voters as well.

so that's another parallel to look at. i do think that this idea that there's going to be a wave of black voters voting for donald trump is highly unlikely because black americans know that donald trump is a racist. and so i think that's something they understand implicitly. at the same time, i also wonder if the biden campaign's consistent messaging overall about the strength of the economy, especially, and how good things are, while that may be true on wall street and indicators, the economy looks strong, black americans in their daily lives aren't always feeling that. so when they don't hear their concerns and their lives and their interests represented in that campaign, it does, i believe, just talking to voters, it really does trigger the sense they are being left behind and taken for granted. i think the biden campaign and democrats in general are going

to have to work harder this time to get that base to turn out. >> yeah, that's one election year concern. here's another. president biden will take new executive action today that will remove the threat of deportation for hundreds of thousands of people who are married to u.s. citizens. the program, which is known as patrol in place would apply to about a half a million undocumented immigrants. it would allow them to stay in the country while applying for green card status. currently law requires them to return to their home countries to start a process which can take years to complete. to qualify, new applicants must have lived in the u.s. for at least ten careers as of yesterday. the president will also announce an executive action that will allow daca recipients and other dreamers to receive work visas if they graduated from a higher education institution and have a high skilled job offer in their area of study.

senate democrats are in the middle of a month long blitz to promote reproductive rights, highlighting the contrast on abortion health care as the second anniversary of the fall of roe v. wade approaches. the campaign in battleground states are hosting events with local organizations and posting on social media. all bolstered by paid advertising from the dscc. and the chairman of the democratic senatorial campaign committee senator garrett peters of michigan joins us now, also the chair of the senate homeland committee. good to see you this morning. let's start with that blitz. tell us more about it. and why you believe it could be key to continuing the democratic electoral winning stroke going, a streak that began after the dobbs decision. >> well, we believe that it is incredibly important to make sure voters understand where

democrats are on a critical issue they care deeply about, which is reproductive freedom for women, and there are incredibly clear contrasts for folks that we need to make sure folks see, particularly in our senate races all across the country. our democratic incumbents and candidates are pro choice and support the right for women to make these fundamental reproductive decisions, and they're running against very extreme candidates that have taken extreme positions, often with no exceptions for rape or incest. and this issue continues to be salient after the reversal of roe v. wade, and, you know, now we're starting to see a lot of the stories as to the impact the decisions have had on people's lives, women's lives, women who have to leave their state or put into a very difficult situation where their pregnancy that is going badly is not being treated in a way necessary to preserve the health or the life of the

mother, and catastrophic consequences, you have physicians that are concerned about providing health care because they're afraid of someone questioning what they're doing and what that could mean for their future or their license. these are real consequences. people understand what is happening here, we just have to make sure that that information gets out and the contrast is painted very clearly for voters when they go into the voting booth in november. >> senator, some days it seems like the world gets more volatile by the moment. i mean, we have a war in ukraine, we have the middle east aflame. we have the global south filled with refugees leaving their countries. do you get a sense, sitting on the homeland security committee, the threat level is growing exponentially. >> the threat levels are there. they're always there. that's why we have to be very vigilant. we face threats not just from external sources but internally as well, the threat of domestic

violence is very real in this country as well. we have cyber security threats. there's no question the world is a very complicated place, which is why you need to have very steady leadership. the president, certainly president biden provides that kind of focused, steady leadership, and a very uncertain world. that's why we keep our focus with homeland security in the united states. understanding that things that occur internationally can have impacts locally as well, and we need to be vigilant. >> senator, chris matthews is with us and has a question. chris? >> a couple of things, when we talk about reproductive rights, we're talking about the right to an abortion. donald trump has said -- i interviewed him, and he made it closure, women need to be punished, we've got tape of that. we've got tape of him saying that barack obama was from kenya. he was an illegal immigrant, he shouldn't be president.

why don't you use the tapes. i think when the debate is next week, the president should be encouraged to say things that should be documented on tape by the networks that are going to play this debate. given stuff that they have to put on the air because it's true. that's my thinking. show it and document it. >> i think that's absolutely right, and his words just need to be put on air, and i think as voters start tuning in, particularly voters who haven't been paying a lot of attention to politics, they don't do that on a normal day. they've got a lot of other things happening in their lives. if they see donald trump and see how he approaches these issues, i think they're going to see that he's even more unhinged now than when he was when he was president. and i would argue he was pretty unhinged then. he's more so now. how he's approaching the issues of the day, i think they're going to feel very uncomfortable, particularly when you contrast to joe biden, who's

talking about the future, talking about making sure we have steady adult leadership in the executive office. i think we need to make sure that people can see those two images, put those side by side, and i'm confident when we do that, we not only win the presidency, we're also going to win our key senate races all across the country. >> all right. share of the dscc, senator gary peters of michigan, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. >> thank you. and chris matthews, thank you so well. hope to see you again very soon. and coming up, he served under seven presidents and ran the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases for nearly four decades and was one of the most important leaders during the covid pandemic. dr. anthony fauci joins us next to discuss his new memoir "on call," a doctor's journey in public service. public service

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rally this week. aren't you worried about people getting sick? >> no, if you look the numbers are minuscule compared to what it was. it's dying out. no, we're not concerned. actually, oklahoma has had a very low rate, relatively speaking. >> icarumba. that was the same guy who said it was one or two people coming in from china. they were taken care of. it was going to go away in the spring. it will be done by easter. just never stopped spreading disinformation, and people died because of it. that was president donald trump four years ago. yesterday, once again, brushing off concerns about holding an indoor rally in oklahoma in the midst of the covid-19 pandemic. just a few days after that event, the state would set a new single day record for coronavirus cases, which health officials said likely was caused by donald trump's rally. trump held that event despite

warning from its top members of the coronavirus task force, including dr. anthony fauci, and the former director of the national institutes of allergy and infectious diseases joins us now. he also served as president biden's chief medical adviser before retiring last year. today he's out with a new memoir called "on call a doctor's journey in public service," dr. fauci, thank you so much for being with us. there are so many questions we could ask you. i just want to start with an overview. what's the main message of this book? what do you want readers and americans to take away from what you have read? >> i believe there are two main messages, joe. the first is that it's somewhat of an unusual perspective that i have for being at the nih for 54 years, and being director of the

niaid, the infectious disease institute for 40 years, and i had the privilege of dealing with seven presidents, bookended by the early years with hiv and then the last years of my career there with covid, and it's been an extraordinary journey, as i say in the title in public service. so i would it would be a good way to get a personal historical perspective. but also i hope that it encourages young people who have any interest in medicine, science, public health or public service how gratifying a career in public service can be. two reasons. >> so we could ask, again, a lot about your time with donald trump. it certainly was extraordinarily momentous because of the pandemic. i am curious looking back through the years, your public

service. what are you most proud of? what do you write about in here? as you're going back through the years, do you think, wow, we really got that right. >> well, there are several things. the early part of my career when i developed some remission inducing therapies for diseases, this is way before hiv, that were really very very highly fatal diseases, inflammatory, autoimmune diseases, and then in 1981, things changed and i started on hiv, which was, you know, a 40-year journey of first what was almost hopelessness of almost exclusively young gay men in the early years of the '80s, to the development of drugs and the essentially turning around the life of these individuals in collaboration with the pharmaceutical companies. i'm most proud of the role i played as the director of the institute in getting these drugs to save so many lives throughout

the world, but probably one of the most important things that i'm proud of is working with president george w. bush to put together the pep far program, the president's emergency plan for aids relief, which now 20 years into it has been responsible for saving 25 million lives. mostly in the developing world and mostly in sub saharan africa, and finally, my institute, the vaccine center that i established when i was director played a major role in the development of the covid vaccines, again, in collaboration with the pharmaceutical companies. it's been a very long journey, and there are several landmarks in there that i feel very good about. >> so, dr. fauci, 40 years of helping and/or healing, sometimes both at once, in all of those 40 years, could you ever imagine the impact that the

latter years, dealing with covid, dealing with the virus, helping cure people with the vaccine, that you and your family would come under such a sustained political assault? >> no, that never in my wildest dreams would have occurred to me. i mean, there had been disagreements all along. i mean, having advised seven presidents, it's very very likely that you're going to get differences of opinion, diversity of political ideology, and people would sometimes try and, you know, get one point or so over the other. we saw that all the time. but it wasn't the profound degree of divisiveness now, where instead of having diversity of opinions, we have profound division, vitriol, and ad hominem, which is completely different. there was always collegiality,

civility and respect for institutions. now in the last few years, it sort of disappeared. >> to follow that question, we now head into a moment where because of that divisiveness, it's become a political issue. vaccinations in particular have become a political issue where you have not just donald trump but other republicans saying, no, no, don't take the covid vaccine. we had other prominent figures saying, no, you should not take other vaccines as well, things that are standard that everyone has perceived for decades. with this much of disinformation and anger and vaccine hesitancy, how nervous are you about our ability to handle the next pandemic, whatever it might be? . >> i'm very concerned about that because the misinformation and disinformation about absolutely scientifically proven life saving interventions, it's astonishing to me that so many people by political ideology

will make a decision that would actually endanger their lives. the facts are, and as a physician and a scientist, this is very painful to me, that if you look at red states versus blue states, because of people getting less vaccinated because you're a republican versus a democrat, there are more deaths and hospitalizations in red states versus blue states. that's horrible that that happens, that people suffer and die because of misinformation that's related to a political ideology. >> dr. fauci, you know, we're in an environment right now, unfortunately, in which americans' faith and trust in institutions is arguably at an all time low. it's not only public health. it's not only science. it's government, journalism,

. >> anything, particularly as extraordinary as a pandemic that killed 1.2 million people. nobody is perfect, and nobody did everything right. we did a lot of things right but not everything right. i would take a little issue with what you're saying about telling people what we think they want to hear. i think what we need to do better is to get people to understand that we were dealing with a moving target, and science as a discipline is self-correcting. so that if you look at what's

going on in january and february of 2020, what we knew then, what we knew about the virus and the fact that the virus was changing, we need to make it more clear to people that we will report what we know based on in realtime what the evidence is. if the evidence changes, the public can sometimes get the opinion, well, these scientists are flip flopping, they're changing their mind. we need to understand better and explain better that science is a discipline that allows you to collect information. when that information changes, science demands that you change your opinion based on the new information. we didn't do a very good job of that. >> joe? >> we were talking about the first pandemic since 1918, 1919. we often talk, doctor, about the fog of war. this pandemic was a war of its

own kind with over a million people dying. i'm curious how frustrating it is to you, that people go back and pick up something you may have said in march of 2020 or something that another health official or politician may have said later in that year, whether it was about masks or vaccines, we didn't know. none of us knew where this was going. none of us knew, like, for instance, how long would the vaccine work. would we need one booster every five years or every five months. how frustrating is it to you that people look back with 2020 hindsight and judge you when you and the rest of the world was in the fog of war. >> you know, it is quite frustrating, joe, and that relates exactly to the question just a moment ago where i was saying that people really don't appreciate, i don't blame them, but they don't appreciate we were dealing with a moving target. when we were saying things in the beginning, wear a mask or

not, how the virus is spread. originally it was felt understandably but incorrectly by the cdc, that it was spread by way the flu was spread, mostly by droplets, when in fact, most of the transition is not only not by droplets but ar sol. 50 to 60% of the people who transmit is have no symptoms at all. it was terribly frustrated because people like to take things out of context and do a gotcha. that's part of the reporting process. i accept that. it's the world we live in, but it certainly is frustrating. >> well, we greatly appreciate you being here. we appreciate your service through the years so much. the new book is called "on call a doctor's journey in public service," dr. anthony fauci, thank you so much. great to see you. >> thank you.

and rory mcilroy announces what he's going to do next to cope with his heartbreaking loss on sunday at the u.s. open. we're going to tell you what his plans are other than going to a putting green and practicing the same putts that i miss. "morning joe" coming right back.

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welcome back, and this news just into us, justin timberlake was arrested last night on new york's long island out in the hampton's. the singer remains in custody this morning, and a court spokesperson tells nbc news that timberlake is set to be arraigned on at least one dwi charge. sag harbor village police says it will be releasing a formal statement at some point later today. we will keep you updated. meanwhile, rory mcilroy says he's going to take three weeks

off from golf following his collapse over the weekend. breaking his silence after losing his tournament by one shot for the second consecutive year, made the announcement yesterday in a social media post. in it, he called sunday's fourth round probably the toughest day of his professional golf career, and said he will take some time away from the game to process everything and build myself back up. mcilroy twice had a one-shot lead until he closed with three bogeys on his last four holes, missing a 30 inch par putt, and a par putt from 4 feet on the 18th. hard to watch. he will defend his title at the scottish open, and then leads to the british open one week later. joe, a lot of mcilroy fans around this table. that is a difficult, difficult sunday. >> yeah, it's brutal.

you know, it is i'm sure for a lot of people who go out golfing, it's somewhat comfortable to know despite his terrible pain that everybody can do that. anybody can do that. i think it's a good idea to take the time off. i mean, golf, more than any sport i've ever played, it's all about confidence. like if you stand over the ball, you think you're going to strike the putt right. you think you're going to hit the ball. you know, you've just increased your odds 90%. it's standing in a batter's box knowing you're going to hit the ball. you don't care what the pitcher throws you. when you go in feeling that way, and you have the skills to back it up, he can do, man, when you've got the yips, even 3 foot putts are impossible for the best. >> yeah, so mental. golf, maybe pitching, field goal kicking, if you get the yips, it is very very difficult. for me, my putts are usually blocked by the windmill on the

mini golf course. that's my issue. we turn now to one other headline, the 2024 global citizen festival is set to return to central park's great lawn. that will be september 28th. headlines this year's lineup, some big, big names. artist, post malone. doja cat, jelly roll and rauw. hugh jackman will be hosting the evening, which will feature appearances by dr. jane goodall, chris martin of cold play as well as many many others to be announced. tickets to the global music festival are free, and can be earned by joining calls for change to address major issues perpetuating extreme poverty around the world. download the global citizen app or visit globalcitizenfestival.com for more information. and coming up here on "morning joe," 15 cents on the dollar, that's the amount of wealth the average black family

has compared to $1 of the average white family's wealth. how that gap came to be, and the setbacks that continue to hold it in place is the focus of an important new book. the authors of that book will join us next. will join us next (♪♪) (♪♪) try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints. (vo) in three seconds, this couple try dietary supplements from voltaren, will share a perfect moment. (woman) is that? oh wow! but we got to sell our houses! (vo) well, almost perfect. don't worry. just sell directly to opendoor. (woman) yes! (vo) close in a matter of days. when life's doors open, we'll handle the house. while i am a paid actor, and this is not a real company, there is no way to fake how upwork can help your business. upwork is half the cost of our old recruiter and they have top-tier talent and everything from pr to project management because this is how we work now.

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welcome back to "morning joe." despite years of progress in the fight for racial equality in america, the wealth gap between white and black americans remains stubbornly wide. a new book which is out today bears the title "15 cents on the dollar: how americans made the black/white wealth gap" and it details the history of the racial wealth gap in the u.s. and explains why it has been so difficult to close it. joining us now, the co-authors of the book, journalist ebony reed, and louise story. thank you, both, for being here, and congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> out today.

so, ebony, tell us a little bit about the origins of this book, why did this become a subject that you guys wanted to tackle. >> absolutely. so in the summer of 2020, just like many people around the country, louise and i were having conversations about inequities, things we have seen in the workplace and our lifetime, we were colleagues at "the wall street journal" and we realized there is no book that has ever been created that is the history of the black-white wealth gap all the way to present day. >> i guess this question is for either of you really, it is such an important subject, and it looks like this is going to be the definitive history which is excellent. but americans are familiar with the concept. how much does the role of housing play in this wealth gap? and can you talk a little bit about that? you also followed seven black americans to take a look at this subject. could you talk a little bit about some of the inflection points in anywhere actual real lives in the span of their own

histories that kind of shifted and may be different for white americans in terms of building that wealth or missing out on it? >> sure, and you're right to highlight the whole story line of the families. this is a gap that has been created and reinforced many times throughout history. it is not just about slavery. it is about things that happened decade after decade, and we peel back that onion and anyone reading this, no matter your race, your age, your economic level, you'll be able to rethink your own financial story and understand your family's financial history and what broke you out or held you back, and so it will be that journey. in terms of housing, housing is important, a lot of wealth building happens through housing. however, it has been more important in some areas of history than others. so, for example, it was really important in building the largely white middle class after world war ii. it was a very important part of asset allocation at that point. many black americans missed out,

because they weren't able to access the gi bill. we cover all that in the book. it has actually been less important than the stock market in the past 30 years and black americans weren't likely to be in the stock market in that period. it is important, but we talk about the many factors and one of the most important is just the inheritance that people get. >> why this wealth gap can't be closed? is it education? is it zip code? is it pure discrimination? what is it? >> it is a mixture of many factors. i think of it as a spider web. when you start to look at everything that comes together and how sticky it is, it is education, it is access to capital for entrepreneurs, it is a tax code, it is so many things that impact the wealth of black americans in this country that that is one of the reasons it is difficult to address. and it is also historical.

>> if there were to be one solution that let's say, could fix our politics to this, what would you start with? what would the first thing be? the biggest thing that america can do to start righting this ship and making these historic wrongs turn them around and putting them in the right direction? what is one thing america could do? >> there is all kinds of proposals out there. there is many people pushing for reparations. we're in an era where you have so much of the population against dei initiatives and also so much of the population pushing hard for reparations. people are very divided over this. what we'll say, we do not take a policy position in the book. we're journalists, we don't back any particular policy, we show research what would happen if you gave reparations, for example, but we don't take a position. what we do give are recommendations to people and their personal lives and things they can do that we think would add up a lot and one of those

recommendations is they should partner with someone different from them and learn through that partnership with money on the line and this is something that we have done and we have learned through our reporting in our own partnership. >> we're just scratching the surface here. the important new book is titled "15 cents on the dollar: how americans made the black-white wealth gap." it is on sale today. ebony reed and louise story, thank you, both, very, very much. and that does it for us this morning. we will see you right back here tomorrow morning on "morning joe." ana cabrera picks up our coverage in just two minutes. a r coverage in just two minutes

♪ i'm gonna hold you forever... ♪ ♪ i'll be there... ♪ ♪ you don't... ♪ ♪ you don't have to worry... ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ you don't... ♪ [ grunts ] [ laughs ] right now on "ana cabrera reports," breaking news from the white house, the president set to announce new and sweeping executive action impacting 500,000 people. how he plans to shield the undocumented spouses of american citizens from deportation. plus, m