it is 3:00 p.m. here in new york. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. are you better off than you were four years ago? it is a simple campaign question that should this year have a simple answer. after all, four years ago was june 2020, when we were all under lockdown at the beginning of the covid crisis. and yet when you ask voters that question today, a whole lot of them say, no, i'm not better now. it was better back then. how can that be? analysts are chalking it up to trump amnesia. that voters have simply forgotten what his presidency was actually like. as our friend chuck todd puts it, one of the biggest developments of this campaign and the biggest difference between 2016, 2020 and today is the lack of fear of another donald trump term, and that this lack of fear could be a real stumbling block as biden's team tries to galvanize voters.

joining us now, nbc news chief political analyst, chuck todd, the man behind the article and nbc news correspondent, vaughn hillyard. chuck, when you go back and look at 2020, and why donald trump lost, is there a definitive answer for why he lost? >> i think if you surveyed political strategists and political scientists, you wouldn't get a definitive answer. i think he lost simply because of covid. there's a lot of people because of what happened after the election with january 6th, they think about his antics, the first impeachment. then we had the second impeachment that sort of took place right after the inauguration. we never really had that sort of consensus, you didn't have the after action reports because you have one party was in denial that they actually lost, so they didn't do an after action report. but in some ways, neither did the democrats and i think that what i feel like i'm watching is what the biden campaign thought their theory of the case was in

october of 2019. pre-covid, mind you, you know, a soul of the nation. they believed it was a character election. this is not who we are. obviously as covid happened, it became a presidential leadership test, and look, this was the most erratic moment in my lifetime of a president and his behavior during a crisis and a national emergency. i think if you look back, it's hard not to ask yourself, would fewer people be dead had he had a clearer message, had there been more of a -- where if he wasn't undermining his own experts sometimes directly on the air, creating division for political sake, whiplash, yeah, we're going to open up in two weeks for easter, no, we're not. his erratic leadership, i think, ultimately is why he lost. because look at how close that election actually was. you know, a lot of people look at the popular vote and say it wasn't that close, but we know,

you flip about 80,000 votes in three states, and you have a different winner of that election. and i do think covid mattered a lot more, and that leadership mattered a lot more. now, the question is why have voters forgotten it. well, we were in the middle of the pandemic at the time, and angry, but now we've all memory holed it. we have all had these moments where, wait a minute, did that happen before or after, in the before times or after times, the line of demarcation in march 2020, anything that happened before it was the before times, and anything, you know, then when we were in lockdown, we forget. but there was one other aspect to covid that i think makes people think, well, it was manageable and trump was president then, and that was the checks, katy. and i wonder now in hindsight, does a president joe biden regret not fighting for the child care tax credit.

it was a buffer for people, and i think you talk to economists, they say the checks were inflationary, i think people are missing those checks, and i think that has some impact here as well. >> the stimulus checks. by the way, chuck, i don't know if you remember this, we anchored a two-hour broadcast for much of the pandemic from my basement. >> you and i lived it. >> that's the point, you and i remember every minute of his presidential leadership in those moments, we had the uncomfortable task of explaining what, you know, i can't believe what i just saw moments. >> right. >> we remember watching him say you should shoot bleach into your veins or light into your body, those erratic and hard to believe news conferences that he had with his health professionals when he would ignore them on the podium as americans, including everybody watching, were terrified about whether it was safe to even go outside. this is the earliest days of the pandemic when we had no understanding of what it was. and yet, vaughn, we see lara

trump, now as the cochair of the rnc go out and say -- ask the question, and very seriously of voters, do you think you're better off today than you were four years ago? and she gets the answer she wants to hear from a big chunk of voters, which is, no, i'm not, i was better under trump. why do they believe that they could get away with that. >> i think that to chuck's point, forget the politics of it, they remember a life that they lived, again, outside of politics, before the pandemic, and for donald trump and for lara trump, right there heralding folks back to memories of their lives from that point in time, versus whatever they are experiencing in life now. there's something to that here. and if you're donald trump in that team here, when we talk about amnesia, you know, for so many of his loyal supporters, and guess what, the base is going to be so crucial in this election. base supporters can win you an election here. and kind of like buffalo bills fans, right, you keep missing

the field goal, but guess what, that fan base only becomes more firm and more solid, and more passionate because they continue to come that close. they have had multiple galvanizing events since donald trump left office, the 2022 midterms, rallying for trump-backed candidates. each of those indictments? 2023, now a criminal trial. these are moments. >> and you talk about them being galvanizing moments for his base. chuck, he still is on a losing streak. he lost in 2018, by the way, the party lost in 2018. the republican party. he lost the presidency in 2020. he should have done a whole lot better in 2022 than the republican party did. why should we believe that this moment is different, that suddenly president biden and the democrats are so much weaker today than they were two years ago, than they were four years ago, than they were six years ago? >> well, because it's a party in the white house. i don't mean to simplify this,

but, you know, donald trump's rhetoric, even, and even his sort of swagger looks more like 2016 and the campaign you covered so closely than he looks in 2020, and in fact, i was just discussing this with somebody we all know on this call or on this program, i'm going to leave his name out of it. he doesn't know i was going to quote him just now, but he noted, we were talking about this idea that when trump's losing, the worst version of trump shows up, when trump's winning, he thinks he's ahead, he's different person, a different candidate, i think vaughn could speak to this now. donald trump in detroit, and those events he did, he was oddly loose. he was trying to be funny. and all of this. and where from about 2017, even 2023 through the primaries, it's been nothing but angry grievance trump, angry, angry, angry. it's interesting if he drops the

grievance, he could end up looking like the 2016 candidate where he's the outside disrupter. >> hard to imagine him dropping the grievance as he's going to be sentenced in a few weeks here in manhattan. the presidential immunity decisions coming out with the supreme court. there are reasons to continue on the grievance trail. and this whole campaign, it seems to be less for him about policy, and more about what they're doing to me is what they want to do to you. my grievances are your grievances, i want to ask you one more question before we go to cornell belsher, if you're trying to assess what happens in 2020, and say you come to, if not the conclusion, in a decent hypothesis that covid is what did it, covid is what did him in, how does the biden team take that to try and figure out the best strategy for this next election? >> i think they're trying to get

there which is simply make it about the next four years not the last four years. right. i think some voters are going to sit there and trump wants it to be a comparison of the two four years because they believe they have a better economic story to tell. this was what obama and romney, you know, the romney campaign in 2012 wanted to make it about the last four years, and the obama campaign worked really hard to make it about not were you better off now than four years ago, but are you going to be better off four years from now than you are today, and i do think that ultimately when you have two candidates that have basically equal negatives right now, and they do, then you do need to make it about a forward looking -- you can't make it a personally contest. i'm skeptical characters are going to work here. i would argue that maybe character has never mattered that much in presidential elections. we want to believe it should. we think it should. i would be careful it matters as

much as people think it does. if you look at the history of campaigns run on character versus those who have had the character flaws and then try to make it about the voters, the flawed character person has had more success than perhaps we want to admit. >> it did not work in 2016. going against character didn't work. even with the "access hollywood" tape, everything that donald trump was doing in 2016, all of the character hits that he took for things that he said and he still won. i want to have you back on to talk about that character line. i would like to know more of the history of it. chuck todd, thank you very much. vaughn hillyard, thank you as well. joining us now, democratic strategist, and cornell belcher, an msnbc political analyst. so you listened to that conversation. >> great conversation, by the way. >> tell me what you think. >> smart people. i love it. >> i only have smart people on this program. tell me what you think. how do you see this playing out in the numbers?

>> a couple of things, one, i do want to rejoin that conversation because i think too often in media, and i know we do it because we've got to convey a lot in a short period of time. we over simplify things, and we make it the narrative about one variable at best, like, you know, it was not covid that did donald trump in in the last election. there were multiple variables and many variables started to show up in 2018 when democrats had one of the most successful elections they ever had and it wasn't simply about covid. if you look at the gender gap, katy, that happened in 2018, you understand a lot of that was about women and their rejection of what they saw and the misogyny and the direction of the country. it wasn't simply about covid. it wasn't one variable. when i look at the data, you know, the conversation earlier was about whether or not, you know, the public has amnesia.

sometimes we have amnesia in the media as well about what campaigns are, right, and if you look back at -- go back to bush versus kerry, there was a time bush wasn't doing very good against kerry either, and certainly in 2012, as you all were just talking about, and i worked on the obama campaign in 2012, and was obama where he needed to be with voters five, six months out from the election? no, he absolutely wasn't. younger voters who we needed to lock in, and even voters of color who we needed to lock in, weren't like, you know what, we've got all the hope and change we asked for. it's fine. he did fantastic with all of that change. no, they're always disgruntled, katy. the question is do we have a story to tell. and look, bush, has a better story to tell the american people, and won. obama had a better story to tell than mitt romney, and he won. does biden have a better story to tell than donald trump?

>> the numbers show he does have that story to tell. but it's hard to tell voters that the experience that they believe they're having, where the prices have gone up and they're upset about it. housing is too expensive. chuck mentioned the child tax credit, people are upset about the cost of living, getting their kids taken care of. it is extremely expensive. housing is expensive. groceries are expensive. even though the numbers show the economy is very good, that things are going in the right direction, wage growth, unemployment, inflation coming down, there is that pervasive feeling that it's not as good as i want it to be. i feel angry about it. how do you tell that positive story without making people feel they're not being seen or hard? >> i'm going to be the bad guy, right? i'm going to be the bad consultant. you don't have gray hair like i have. i remember when ronald reagan said it was morning in america. if you look at the statistic and look at where the american

public is. the american people didn't think things were great. we were trying to scrap our way out of the recession. it's about the story telling. the best politicians in the history of american politics have always been optimistic, and i think to a certain extent, at some point we're going to look back and see trump as an outlier, he wasn't optimistic. he's dark and gruesome. he sees america as gotham city, as opposed to a shining city on the hill. but at some point, the best politicians in american, whether it be republican or democrats, you know, are optimistic, and they sell this optimism to americans because you know what americans want to believe, they want to believe that tomorrow is going to be better, and you got to lean into it and sell that to the american people, and i think, again, it's about story telling. now, biden is not the story teller that ronald reagan was. but he's got a good story to tell americans about, hey, it's morning in america. it's getting better. we have come through a lot, but

it's getting better and stick with it. >> you know, i had reverend al sharpton on, and he said even jesus needed his disciples. i wonder who the disciples are going to be for the biden team who will tell that story, and we saw joe biden yesterday, dr. jill biden introducing a dreamer as part of the executive action to legalize him, to give him a pathway to legalization, and i was struck by how strong she sounded at that podium. i wonder if we're going to see more of her and who else is in the stable to come out and start campaigning alongside president biden who as you said, is not the story teller that reagan was and not the story teller he wasn't witness. cornell belcher, it's good to have you. i like your hair. it's gray, but it's great. >> thank you. >> all right. let's move on before i get in trouble. still ahead, what donald trump's legal team might do now that new york's top court is keeping the gag order in place, and still no

winner in virginia's key congressional primary. why we're watching this race between these two republicans. what it tells us about the party and its future. plus, should social media come with a warning, like cigarettes have a warning. a group of kids is telling yasmin their experience with it, and why they think something has to change. has to change. upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating

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donald trump will be back in a manhattan court in three short weeks to be sentenced for his felony conviction. he can't talk about the witnesses or the jury. the top court declined to hear the appeal to lift the gag order. joining us now, msnbc legal correspondent, lisa rubin, and former district attorney for the manhattan district attorney's office, and msnbc legal analyst. catherine christian. lisa good to see you, putting a smile on my face in the commercial break. let me ask you about the gag order. there were questions about whether this gag order would stay in place, especially given that stormy daniels, michael cohen, can go out and say whatever they want about donald trump. >> and i should say that what is going on in terms of post trial briefing about the propriety of the gag order is separate and apart from the decision that new york's court of appeals reached yesterday which had to do with an appeal of the gag order during the trial itself.

judge merchan can still decide now that not all of the gag order is necessary or that none of the gag order is necessary in a post trial period. and that opinion itself can then be appealed so we have to look at them as sort of two discreet periods of time. one was about the trial itself and now judge merchan is going to be asked to make a decision about in a post trial world, is it still necessary. >> has he been abiding by this gag order. has he done anything recently that has made it -- that has been detrimental for his sentencing. >> not what i can see, he has been complaining about him still having a gag order. i think what the judge, that i don't like to predict, he -- judge merchan did mention that witnesses should not use it as a sword. now that the trial is over, the proceedings aren't over, so the gag order is to protect the integrity of the proceedings. once donald trump is sentenced, he is done with judge merchan, then it's on to the appellate

court. he might lift as it relates to for instance, michael cohen, i think for jurors, you want to keep them even though the trial is over safe, you don't want them doxxed or bothered. the judge might leave it for that, and also, quite frankly, the family members of the d.a. and the judge himself and the court staff, and the d.a. staff. because, again, the proceedings aren't over yet until the sentencing. >> but the family members have nothing to do with this, so arguably they shouldn't be involved. a jury obviously as well. in terms of safety, i am still struck by how no members of the jury in any of donald trump's cases have come forward to say here's why we made the decision we made. we have heard from a number of jurors in the hunter biden case. what does that tell us about the comfort those jurors in the hunter biden case had about speaking out and the comfort these jurors have? >> i think it tells you that the

jurors, and there have been three sets of them, three juries in three separate trump cases, two civil, one criminal, fear retribution, whether it's from the former president himself or from people who are close to him. i should also mention that one of those judges, judge lee kaplan of the federal court in manhattan basically told them, if i were you, i would not come forward. the choice is yours, but i would not. almost putting his thumb on the scale with them. i want to get back to something you and catherine were just discussing, which is whether trump has violated the gag order. we will hear from the district attorney's office, during the trial and in its after math, he has violated in ways they have not brought to judge merchan's attention. in particular, with respect to one participant, matthew colangelo, an assistant district attorney who came from the department of justice where he was doing a short stint. he has been much more involved in new york law enforcement, having served in the new york attorney general's office and now in the d.a.'s office, but when he talks about matthew

colangelo, he uses him as the through line between joe biden and alvin bragg, alleges there's some collusion. >> like the doj sent him over to get this case resurrected. >> and there is no basis for that, and in fact, a number of facts that would suggest that is just flatly false. >> we're also waiting for the supreme court to make a decision on the immunity. what is your expectation? what are you thinking now that we are midway through june? >> will it be tomorrow or are they going to make us wait until next week, so we are all, every thursday so far this month, we have been waiting to see. there are other big decisions, too. there's the official decision which will determine whether or not two counts of his january 6th indictment, donald trump's indictment, that involve obstructing an official proceeding will be dismissed if the supreme court says that was improperly charged. but we'll find out tomorrow or they'll make us wait because there's only one more week left in june. >> maybe it will go into july. we will see. they've got a lot of cases.

it is up to them. catherine christian, lisa rubin, ladies, thank you very much. and the surgeon general says social media is bad for kids mental health, we all know this. what are kids who are experiencing social media saying about it? they've got some surprising and pretty insightful answers. don't go anywhere. we're going to bring you that. we also have one of the races from last night's primary in virginia that still hasn't been called, and we're going to tell you why we are paying such close attention to this race between these two republicans in particular. two republicans in particular nothing dims my light like a migraine. with nurtec odt, i found relief. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you.

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we are watching a virginia race that's going to tell us a lot about how exactly -- how loyal exactly a person needs to be to donald trump in the republican party to exist in the republican party as it's currently made up. well, that race still has not been called. it is so close.

congressman bob good, chairman of the house freedom caucus is statistically tied. you can see, with state senator john mcguire. a trump-backed candidate who was at the stop the steal rally ahead of the insurrection. joining us now, nbc news capital correspondent, ali vitali, this is the head of the house freedom caucus, as republican, as conservative as they come. as pre-maga, if you will as they come, and he's, you know, face to face tied with this guy, mcguire, who's a state senator and who was at the stop the steal rally. explain why this matters, why we're watching this race so closely. >> reporter: you and i were talking about this race yesterday. i went to the district on friday. it's one on our radars for a while. it says what a trump endorsement means, what it means to have kevin mccarthy play in a primary, and what the sway on the electorate is there. when i talked to congressman bob good and went down to the

district, he said nobody cares about kevin mccarthy. okay. maybe, i guess we're going to see. but everybody cares about a trump endorsement, and what's so fascinating and i love the frame you put on this, is the role that a trump endorsement plays here, and what it means to be sufficiently pro trump. trump endorsed against bob good in part because good endorsed ron desantis back in the primary last year. now we're going to see the level that a trump endorsement has here because even if mcguire wins, a 313 vote difference now, even if mcguire pulls this out, this is not the sway trump likes to say he has over an electorate. my conversations with the sources before vote counting began last night, the conventional wisdom is that bob good was in trouble, and this would be an early night where john mcguire would walk away, the likely congressman from the fifth district, that's not what happened and not what we're saying officially happened, they're within a 1% margin where

one or both of these guys could say, hey, i want to do a recount. we're waiting to see if a recount is a part of the equation. >> i've got a question for charlie dent who's going to join us in a moment, about what it's going to mean for the primaries and the general election. that's where it's going to matter. i want to ask you about one other thing that's happening on capitol hill, and this has to do, even though kevin mccarthy is gone with the matt gaetz ethics inquiry. what's happening? >> there's a mccarthy thread to this too. i'll get there at the end. what's happening with gaetz and the ethics committee. i'll put this on the screen so you can understand, several informations into the congressman in florida. they are no longer investigations allegations of lewd images on the floor, misuse of campaign funds, those are off the table. they are investigating sexual misconduct allegations and illegal drug use. this is where kevin mccarthy comes in, and it's because

congressman matt gaetz is blaming him for the fact that any of these investigations are going on in the first place. gaetz, of course, denies these allegations but then says in a statement that kevin mccarthy effectively gave his name, and now they're just trying to find charges to match. we'll see what the ethics committee finds but this is the politics sub text to the actual investigations we're seeing here on the hill. >> ali vitali, thank you very much. and i mentioned charlie dent, former pennsylvania congressman and our republican legacy senior adviser. that is a group, it's not my republican legacy. it's the group he blocks to. charlie dent, thanks for being here. so i'm interested in this virginia race because you have these two very republican men running against each other. they're tied and they're both very maga. i don't think you can argue that the chair of the house freedom caucus is insufficiently maga, but one is slightly more loyal to donald trump than the other, and if the one that's more loyal to donald trump wins, what does it say about candidate quality?

and who can make it at the primaries and whether those people are capable of winning a general election in a place that is not deeply, deeply red. >> well, in the case of congressman bob good, he has not been very careful. i have always said, if you can't be careful, you should be nice. he went ouch his way to go after kevin mccarthy. obviously he endorsed desantis over trump. it should be noted, too, he's also gone after some of his own colleagues, republican colleagues in the house, supporting their primary challengers, so he's made a lot of enemies, and so there's a lot of payback going on right now, and mcguire is benefitting from all of this, and that's why good is in trouble. and you know you're in trouble when a lot of your colleagues refer to you not as bob good but as bob bad. this is a problem. many of these issues are of his own making. congressman tom poll fended off

an aggressive challenger far to his right, and beat him back decisively. his opponent spent in excess of $5 million. so, again, he's a nice man. he's careful. and he's nice. and that's why i come back to this. good has not been careful or nice. >> it's bad to be good is what you're saying. >> exactly. >> i couldn't help myself. i'm sorry. but i do think we should go back to the question i initially had is if you have to be over the top loyal to donald trump, you've got to be at the stop the steal rally, you can't just be a conservative who stands by conservative principles and votes on conservative principles and fights for conservative policy as you can argue the house freedom caucus chair would do. does that make it so you can get more extreme candidates, that there are people in swing districts or not even just moderately red districts that become much harder to elect. >> well, this is the reason i'm involved with our republican

legacy. we are trying to refocus this party back on core principles, rather than guilty to one individual, because when we have, you know, when donald trump has this much influence, it's unhealthy for the party when loyalty is the only litmus test, as opposed to maybe having some issues like, oh, the constitution, you know, a rational foreign policy piece, free markets, and this is where the party should be having these conversations. not having these conversations because they don't want to, there's no counter argument for maga and trump. so right now, trump holds sway over the primaries, he can affect an outcome, even though the primaries, he is the kiss of death for many republican candidates in general elections, in swing districts that are tight. we can not simply rely on your base to elect you. >> look at the special elections, look at 2018, look at 2020, look at 2022, there's a lot of examples. charlie dent, really good to have you, thank you very much. >> great to be with you.

still ahead, the surgeon general wants the biggest social media platforms to come with a warning label. we asked some teens about this and you'll be surprised at what they told us. plus, remembering an icon, truly an icon, what made willie mays a giant in more than just his uniform. his ifunorm. (vo) sail through the heart of historic cities and unforgettable scenery with viking. unpack once, and get closer to iconic landmarks, local life, and cultural treasures. because when you experience europe on a viking longship, you'll spend less time getting there and more time being there. viking. exploring the world in comfort. always dry scoop before you run. listen to me, the hot dog diet got me shredded. it's time we listen to science.

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when surgeon general vivek murthy pushed for warning labels on social media, parents asked what a warning would change. it is clear something desperately does need to change. it is exactly what a group of teens told nbc news national correspondent yasmin vossoughian, and yasmin joins us now. you had this really interesting conversation. >> i did. >> with teens, ands answers they gave you surprised me. >> yeah. they surprised me as well, actually, because when i asked them about the warning, i thought, listen, putting myself in their shoes, if social media was alive and well when i was 16, i would have seen that warning and been like pish posh, moving on, let me scroll for the next hour. >> what do you know about me. >> but they actually had some foresight to understand and feel as if, yes, i'm still going to go on tiktok, but instagram, but ten minutes into scrolling, i might rethink what i'm doing after seeing that warning. what was surprising to me was how open of a dialogue they had

with their parents in preparing themselves to kind of have this relationship that they have with social media and with their friends through social media. let's take a listen to some of what we said, and we'll talk. >> do you think it would affect your behavior on social media? >> it depends what it says. it would make me think more about what i'm doing, which could lead me to taking different action. i don't think directly, i would see it, and think, i'm going to watch this because i saw that. >> i don't think it would stop me from going into the social media app, but i think it would make me think twice about what the effects are. >> they also said it cannot be in small print, it has to be huge print across the screen to make sure we see it. >> i guess that warning, put that aside, i'm interested in what the kids told you about mental health and social media and whether looking back they wanted their parents to give them access to it. >> yes, because they felt as if

they had fomo. many of the kids say that it hurts them when they feel as if their moms and dads are saying, no, you can't have access, and they're sitting around in the table in the lunchroom, and the kids are talking about something they saw on tiktok, and they're not a part of the conversation, they feel left out. in retrospect, they understand why it is their parents were so controlled and deliberate about the decision they made when they actually gave them access to social media, and it goes back to my initial point. it's all about, something that you and i can learn with young kids, open conversations with your kids. >> when are you going to give your kids phones? >> probably after college. no, honestly, i think when they start to walk to school on their own. like early high school. >> i'm going to try to get to high school. >> college, 18. >> i hope this is not being recorded. >> let's make a pact. it's all about the parents making a pact, and deciding to do it together.

>> that was something else, they all said, involve your community, involve other parents in making decisions about what kids should be watching and have access to. >> i have to listen to my ep, my parent right now telling me i have to go. yasmin vossoughian, thank you very much. it is known as america's second independence day, why we celebrate juneteenth, first, though, a legend on and off the field. we are going to take a moment to celebrate the life and the legacy of willie mays. when i have customers come in and ask for something for memory, i recommend prevagen. number one, because it's effective. does not require a prescription. and i've been taking it quite a while myself and i know it works. and i love it when the customers come back in and tell me, "david, that really works so good for me." makes my day. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. to 50 years with my best friend. [sfx: gasp] [sfx: spilling sound] nooo... aya...

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on june 21st, 1950, the owner of the negro baseball league, birmingham black barons received a letter from new york, please find two copies of the agreement to cover the assignment of contract player, willie h. mays jr. a letter was sent by the owner of the new york giants, and it was just the beginning of how one of baseball's greatest players leapt from the negro leagues to the majors and transformed the sport. joining us now, negro leagues baseball museum president bob kendrick and former host of npr's "only a game" and author of "take me out," big littlefield, thank you so much for being here. it is a day of celebration. willie mays, lived a long and consequential life, loved by many, including you guys. bill, tell me about how meaningful it was for him to jump from the negro leagues to

the majors? >> well, of course the first i knew of willie mays, i didn't know anything about the negro leave. all i knew is i was living in montclair, new jersey, when the new york giants brought willie mays up and he just exploded into my consciousness and, very shortly thereafter i began claiming without a doubt that he was the greatest who ever played and i continue to believe that that's the case. >> i know, you make the argument. some people say number one, number two, number three, your argument is number one. bob, you tell me about that. >> absolutely. >> well, you know, i get excited because this 17-year-old kid walked out on the field here in birmingham, alabama, where i am now, wrigley field, at 17, and started patrolling center field for the great birmingham black barons, and who knew it would be this kid, and certainly in the

eyes, minds, hearts of many as the greatest major leaguer of all time, and in its own way, he does help substantiate and validate some of the lesser known but great talent that was there in the negro leagues when people do discover that, and so it's very special. and it's special to be here in his hometown, and very special about this big celebration that we're planning for thursday. >> yeah, so there's the thursday celebration, and i also want to hear more about that, but i want to mention also that the stats in the negro league have now been adopted by the majors, they have said -- they've gone back and they have said we've got to incorporate -- the hits, the ru pitches from the negro leagues because that league was just as consequential as our league. so willie mays and others have had their stats increased over the years. tell me, though, bob, about what is happening, the celebration that is happening for baseball in birmingham. >> it is going to be epic. the history of the black

baseball and the negro leagues are front and center. we'll have an international audience watching this celebration. i guess you could call it another version of the field of dreams game that was so excited and in iowa. as i've said in a number of occasions, field of dreams was a movie. it was our e.e.l. and the history of the negro leagues is our e.a.l. you don't have to make this up. this was real. and it is going to be epic. there are a number of negro league players who are going to be there for this celebration. obviously our hearts will all be a little heavy because willie won't be there and now that willie has passed on. but, see, willie carried their spirits with him to the major leagues and they were so proud of what he accomplished and for us to be there where it all started is going to be so tremendously special.

it is going to be a great day in black baseball history, in negro league history and dare i say american history was going to take place on thursday, june 20th here in birmingham, alabama. >> i think you're completely right about that. i think we have the video of that -- the catch -- the willie mays catch that changed -- it changed the league. no one had ever caught a ball like this before, he was running backwards. bill, he said this wasn't even the top three and top ten of his catches. you said he did a whole lot that was a lot better than that. >> i'm not sure it wasn't in the top ten. but he always maintained it wasn't the best catch that he ever made. and what a beautiful thing, to have made so many catches that you just leave it nor someone else to decide. >> um, i know, bill, you would write -- you never met him but

you would send him birthday poems every year. and i love -- you sent it to us and i read it and it was so beautiful. i'm hoping you could read it for us today. >> i can. first ever all, your very kind to refer to it as a poem. it rhymes and i'll go that far. but i don't want to alienate any true poets. but i'll read it to you. giants come and giants go and fans of baseball likely know that as replacements must replace each player, who has made his space in centerfield on on the mound, the crowd once loud without a sound forgets the old and then cheers the new and few remain in mind. it's true. most vanish in the moving haze of time, but never willy mays. for brilliance is the most rare gift and those who buy their brilliance left the rest of us from heavy days live on and so

will willie mays. >> i think it is beautiful. what is it about baseball? we have a lot of great sports but there is something about baseball that inspires and there is something about baseball that will bring tears, i get teary-eyed hearing you read that and thinking about what willie mays did. what is it about baseball. >> thank you. >> -- that is so special to the american conscience. >> i think a lot of writers who have chose tone write about baseball have said it is time. it is -- baseball winds down over time. and so even between at-bats, people can turn to each other and say, you know, that guy reminds me a little bit of louie appero, and that catch that kid made, he looks like he might be able to run and catch like willie mays. and baseball goes on and on so that, you know, there are chapters, built into it.

just like any kind of a novel or a history. it is not just moments. it is long stretches of time tacked together. and i think that is part of what attracts writers. >> yeah. it is nostalgic but aspirational. >> yeah. bob, i'm going to give you last word before we are fresh out of time. >> well it is by the far the most r romanticized sport, and e great willie mays, they named their children after willie mays. that is how baseball hits you and those images of what you see there on the screen or the images of him walking through the streets of harlem playing stick ball with the kids. that is what you carry forth. that is what endeared us to willie mays and those are the

memories that i will embrace,ine in the midst of the sadness of his passing, because some people are just never supposed to die. even though we know no one is it going to live forever, willie mays was never supposed to die and if we continue to remember him, he will continue to live on forever. >> and you could argue he was never supposed to leave new york either. the giants -- to go to san francisco. dodgers never supposed to go to l.a. that is another conversation. bob and bill, thank you so much. appreciate it. >> thank you. and we'll be right back.

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and it's all from comcast business. very quickly before we go, we're following breaking news out of louisiana where jeff landry just planned a bill into law requiring every public classroom in that state to display the ten commandments and quote large and easily read anl font. louisiana is the only state with

this mandate and there will