very good to be with you. i'm alex witt in for katy tur. what jack smith's case, that is the question being batted around before judge aileen cannon in court today as major questions about her own role in the trial hang over proceedings. there is still no trial date in sight. instead, to the frustration of many, cannon is hearing out what several legal experts have called another long shot argument to dismiss charges against the former president. yesterday, "the new york times" reported cannon rejected urges from two federal judges that she not take the case when it was firsthanded to her last june. the question is why, when a huge chunk of her rulings have drawn criticism from the prosecution

and legal scholars. is it inexperience, she was only on the bench just over a year. is it potential bias? she has shown unusual favor to trump by intervening in the mar-a-lago investigation before he was indicted or is it simply judge cannon's way of proceeding over such a high stakes high profile trial. we're going to dig into it with our legal experts. let's get started. joining us in fort pierce, florida, where the hearing is taking place, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. welcome, walk us through why it's so unusual that today's argument in court is even being entertained by judge cannon? >> reporter: great to see you, alex. yes, today's hearing was illustrative of why this case is take sog long to get to trial. it's a hearing many judges would not have held. judge cannon went to the extraordinary lengths, unheard of, really, of allowing friends of the court, outside lawyers to

come in and argue that jack smith's appointment was unconstitutional and therefore this case should be thrown out. two friend on one side arguing the unconstitutionality of it, and another arguing against that, and that was the afternoon. that burned an afternoon of court time. the trump attorneys made an argument as did the special counsel. as you said, this is a long shot argument that has been rejected in some form or fashion by other courts, even other appeals courts. judge cannon seems to be entertaining it. it's very complicated. it has to do with the question of whether jack smith is an inferior officer or principle officer under the constitution, whether he should have been senate confirmed. in fact, he was not senate confirmed, and whether or not he has supervision by the attorney general. it would be a shock if the argument succeeded. nonetheless, it burned court time, and alex, there are a lot of pretrial matters as yet unresolved, which is why we

don't have a trial days in this case. >> look, the argument for many is that cannon dragging this whole thing out for no good reason. i know, ken, that you have reporting on how some of the defenders are disputing that argument. how do they see it? >> reporter: well, they say that what's wrong with having a hearing and being extra careful in a case that's this high profile, under this level of scrutiny. it shows she wants to get all the evidence into the record. it's hard to argue with that. one interesting sort of element of all of this is that federal judges have magistrate judges below them where they can share the load and allow the magistrate judges to rule on some of these motions. she has chosen not to do that at all. she has taken the entire workload on herself. which means it takes that much longer to plow through all of these motions. that's a thing where it's not about whether she's having hearings. it's about the workload, and it's taking much longer. >> that is interesting.

ken dilanian, thank you for that. and joining us right now, msnbc legal correspondent, lisa rubin and state attorney for palm beach county, dave aronberg, as i welcome you both. what is the legal justification for there being hours long hearings on an issue that has been rejected in similar challenges? >> if you genuinely believe no one is above or below the law, there isn't much of a justification. this is a motion that could be decided on the papers, even if as judge cannon seems to believe, this is a novel legal argument that deserves her full attention. what i can't put my head around is devoting more than a day to this. by the way, those hearings that ken was referring to occurring next week, one of those days of hearings is about a secondary argument that also deals with the propriety of jack smith's appointment. it's really like a day and a half of hearings just on the issue of whether he was constitutionally appointed. i'm wrestling with why have

those two days of hearings when, as the trump people themselves say in a june 11th filing, this is just a legal argument. they're also using this particular issue that jack smith was unlawfully appointed as sort of a wedge to force in a campaign theme into their legal filings, saying, president trump has, in fact, been injured by the fact, and this is their language, not mine, that the attorney general unleashed smith as a biden campaign surrogate to try to harm president trump's campaign by any means necessary. there's absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever, nor do they cite any in the filings in this case. they seem to be using this jack smith was unlawfully appointed argument, as a vehicle for saying what jack smith is a trojan horse for the biden campaign. >> if they throw it out there, they know it has to be addressed. let me ask you about ken's reporting as well. judge aileen cannon is taking on

so much on her own shoulders. surely there have to be associates. >> the judge has law clerks as well. she's being buried to some extent, they filed seven motions to dismiss. she's not doing herself a wealth of help either. she, for example, said, instead of filing what lawyers would file an omnibus motion, file separately. that added to the amount of stuff she had before her, and she's not using the magistrate judges. . in different districts of the country, some districts don't have a practice of pushing off motion practice to the magistrates, who are not lifetime tenured judges, they are there for a discreet period of time. that may be her concern. if i have a defendant who's a former president of the united states, am i going to push off motions on a judge who does not have lifetime tenure? maybe not. the federal judges don't tend to

push off that work on their magistrates. if i had the workload that judge cannon did, right now, and i knew time was of the essence, how do i use my law clerks creatively, ask the chief judge for extra help, maybe an extra law clerk, given the gravity of the situation, and i would use that magistrate judge for some things to move this case along. >> dave, i'm curious what you make of people like john sail who say cannon's behavior shows she's giving careful thought and if you take politics out of this, there should be no rush to judgment. can you really take the politics out of it when it's so deeply intertwined in this case? >> it sure looks bad, alice, you have someone serving as a referee for the same team over and over again. we are right to question the motivations of the referee. i love john sale.

i think it's benign to say she's inexperienced. i think it's legitimate to ask questions about why is she treating donald trump differently than the other defendants before her. she has a reputation of being very tough on crime. she's a former federal prosecutor herself. when it comes to donald trump, she's like a civil libertarian, she's like better call saul, so it's different than her reputation, and i agree with lisa, i don't see a real reason why she can't let magistrate judge, bruce reinhart deal with these issues, instead she's doing it all herself. it's slow walking the case. it is so frustrating. this is dilatory pergetory for jack smith. >> give me a sense whether this is bias on her part, inexperience or are people being too hard on her because she's trying to proceed over this the best way she can? >> as a sitting prosecutor, i'm

not going to accuse a federal judge of being corrupt. i understand why people are asking questions based on her rulings which have been overwhelmingly favorable to donald trump, enough so that the conservative 11th circuit court of appeals repudiated her, embarrassed her publicly when she got involved in the special master issue. of the three judges that made the decision in the 11th circuit, two of them were also appointed by donald trump. i would say it's a mixture of inexperience, a fact that she's also by herself in the fort pierce courthouse. there's no adult supervision there. she's got her law clerks and they come and go, and i think she's being very careful to the person who appoints her. i'm not going any further than that. it tells you when it comes to a legitimate motion, like jack smith's motion to gag the former president on attacking law enforcement, she gave that motion just a few hours of a hearing. meanwhile this crazy motion about getting rid of the special counsel, calling it unconstitutional, she's given a day and a half to.

how do you explain that? >> the alvin bragg situation, the gag order, weigh in on that one. you have strong thoughts about it. >> i do. alvin bragg has been subject to a litany of threats as have the people in his office who are not themselves even elected officials or political appointees. what we saw from his office today in asking judge juan merchan to keep the gag order primarily in place is an effort to say, hey, we know this is extraordinary, and the threats we are facing is extraordinary, and we have new reporting based on the filing today that alvin's office said look, you said that the threats we told you about before are too old. look at what's happened in the last three months. 61 out of 289 threats logged by the nypd against public officials have been against brag and his team. four of them have justified referrals to other prosecutors offices, and they include two

bomb threats to two people associated with the case just on the first day of trial alone, alex. if that doesn't justify keeping the gag order in place, even though the trial is over with respect to counsel and alvin bragg's office, i don't know what else will. i should note that alvin bragg himself is not part of the gag order. >> it is a narrow gag. you're right. >> he's a politician, a person who ran for office, and he subjected himself to this. that doesn't mean the threats against him are valid or excusable, but the former president is free to talk about alvin bragg. when he complains, that's not entirely true. >> thank you so much. still ahead, what the supreme court justice side that's a big win for gun advocates. kathy hochul joins us on that ruling. president biden's comfortable fundraising lead was erased by donald trump's massive money haul. what it could mean for the campaign.

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and intel. clearing the way, [rumble] [whoosh] so you arrive exactly where you belong. 13 past. we are following some breaking news out of arkansas where nine people were shot. two are now dead after a shooting at a grocery store. law enforcement shot and critically injured the gunman who's now in custody. officials say one officer was

also shot at during the altercation and has nonlife threatening injuries. the shooter's identity and possible motives, they are not known yet, but we're going to bring you any new details as we get them. in a major decision, the supreme court upheld a federal statute barring people under domestic violence restraining orders from having firearms. the court on an 8-1 vote ruled in favor of the biden administration which was defending the law, one of several federal gun restrictions currently facing legal challenges. justice clarence thomas was the only justice in dissent. joining us now, new york governor kathy hochul, governor, welcome, there's a lot to talk to you about, and i know you have a particularly personal interest. we'll get to that in a moment. a year ago, the same conservative justices overturned new york's conceal and carry law. just last week, the justices struck down the trump era ban on bump stocks. were you surprised the justices came to this decision?

>> indeed, i was. as a result of this decision, which was not expected given the history you just described, it was the state of new york that had the brun case where the challenge was to a 100 year law to allow a governor like myself to make sure we didn't have conceal and carry weapons in public spaces, so when the decision came down against us, from the supreme court, i wasn't optimistic about how they would feel about a case that most americans would say why would domestic abusers be able to have a gun, but given the history of last year's decision, i wasn't sure. right now, survivors across america are breathing a sigh of relief, and hopefully we can see a different shift in the supreme court and other decisions as well as they realize how out of step they are with keeping americans safe, which is what governors are trying to do. >> this should be noted, though,

because chief justice roberts in his majority opinion did not embrace some of the arguments made by the biden administration during the oral arguments, including that the government can disarm people that are not responsible. the administration is considering this a win, in a statement, president biden says no one who is abused should have to worry about an abuser getting a gun, as a result of the ruling. survivors of domestic violence and their families will be able to count on critical protections as they have for the past three decades. how have those protections impacted the state of new york. what would it have meant had those justices decided to do way. >> well, right now, we have a very aggressive approach to our extreme risk orders f protection, the red flag laws. my mother grew up in a household who was abusive. she became a champion for victims of domestic violence her entire life. she went to the state capitol to lobby to get changes in the

1970s when people called them wife beaters. when she was 70 years old, our family opened a home for victims of domestic violence. this is a deeply personal issue to me. what we do in the state of new york, i think every other state should follow. we have had real results. because i changed the laws, in a case where someone would do harm to themselves or others, law enforcement has the ability to petition to the court to have the guns removed from their homes or their possession. resulting from this, a 113% increase, i'm sorry, 1,000% increase in the number of guns being removed. over 30,000 guns are now out of the hands of potentially abusers or assailants or murders, as a result of what we're doing here in new york, as well as putting justice in our budget, $40 million more to help prosecutors prosecute cases against domestic violence victims. we take this seriously. as the first woman governor of

this state, i know how vulnerable women can be in relationships where you're living with an abusers, but men are abused as well. we are there to protect all new yorkers, and this is a little bit of glimmer of hope from the supreme court, and hopefully this will telegraph a shift in their attitudes about the rights of people to be safe in their homes and businesses and certainly in relationships where domestic violence is a leading cause of death for so many women. one out of four murders are committed by someone who was an intimate partner who has access to a gun. in new york, we're standing up for all residents, i encourage other states to adopt the same laws we have. for now, this is a good day. >> amen to all of that. let me quickly, in the brief amount of time i have left, given the 11th hour decision, what primarily went to blocking congestion pricing from going into effect? >> the realization that

sometimes we have to stand up for every day americans and new yorkers. and to realize that this was going to go into effect when a $15 charge oncoming to manhattan, perhaps back in 2019, all the conditions were ripe. but our industry, the epicenter of the pandemic is not fully recovered. people have an option to work remotely. we want people to come back to the city to work. at this moment, a $15 charge i deem to be excessive for new yorkers who are struggling. our teachers, our firefighterings, our laufrs -- firefighters, law enforcement officers. this would have been another cost in the city of new york. i'm very focused on affordability, and that was the decision to put a pause on it. this does not mean it's over. we will find funding sources for all the projects that are important to be funded by this. let's take a breath right now,

give new yorkers a break, and we'll work out the other details. >> new york governor kathy hochul, thank you so much for your time with us. we appreciate that. up next, we are waiting on more than a dozen supreme court decisions, including presidential immunity. what's taking so long. donald trump erases president biden's fundraising lead. what it means for the campaign. type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone. ♪ ♪ i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. i'm under 7. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. i'm lowering my risk. adults lost up to 14 pounds.

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the next supreme court ruling day is wednesday, and the court will keep adding days until they have finished deciding the remaining 14 cases argued this term. we are still waiting on some big ones from abortion rights to presidential immunity. and joining us now former law clerk to then judge sonia sotomayor, and msnbc legal analyst, melissa murray, and professor of law at nyu. also with us, cofounder and executive director at protect democracy, ian bassin, a former

counsel to president obama. we are waiting on rulings for 14 cases. is that a larger than unusual number to release in the last week of the term? and i'm curious what do we know about how the opinion process works? >> this is very much a slow pace for the court, a leisurely place, if you will, suited for the dog days of summer when we move more slowly. they will get there eventually. most of us don't have the luxury in ours jobs to add days to finish our work when we haven't met deadlines. they will get there. it's taking time. what it tells us is this is a court that's roiled by internal divisions. 8-1, but even in that 8-1 break down, there were a number of concurrences, even within the conservative bloc. not everyone agrees on methodology, not everyone agrees on approach, even if they're getting there with regard to the actual judgment. it's a slow moving court, and i think that's because it's a court that's very much divided

on a lot of different grounds. >> ian, the supreme court may have yet another addition on its to doist. steve bannon has also asked the supreme court to let him stay out of prison for his contempt of congress conviction. how likely is he to succeed at this, the 11th hour. >> extremely unlikely. it's a standard case. the supreme court is taking fewer and fewer cases each term, and they do not need to take cases and i expect they will likely not take that one. what bannon, i think, is doing is trying a little bit of what donald trump has done so successfully, which is trying to use the court system to simply delay and delay and delay, and that is a graver concern in terms of how donald trump has been able to manipulate the court system. >> when it comes to the issue of whether donald trump has presidential immunity, your strict scrutiny podcast cohost, leah litman thinks something about the delay is off, writing

this, process explanations overlook some of the particulars in the immunity case. mr. trump's lawyers put together a set of arguments that are so outlandish, they shouldn't take much time to dispatch. this court has lost the benefit of the doubt for myriad of reasons, including the willingness to act quickly in cases that benefit republican interests. do you see it that way? >> i think leah's exactly right. this is a court that has shown it can move with a sense of urgency when certain questions are on the table, like, for example, toward the end of the trump administration, the court moved very quickly to grant certiorari without having review at the intermediate appellate course in a series of cases involving executions. they did this because the biden administration was going to halt the federal death penalty. in the case of the immunity decision, a lot of these arguments were specious to the

point of being stupid. they could be resolved very quickly, again, the court doesn't have to resolve questions that aren't before it. including these more hypothetical questions about the scope of executive privilege or executive immunity. it's choose to go take this case and according to justice gorsuch, write an opinion for the ages. it's not clear it has to. what is clear is that in taking so long, it is already effectively immunized donald trump from liability for the january 6th election interference case. >> listen, given 8-1, it's a vote that was lopsided with only conservative justice clarence thomas, dissenting. five justices writing separate concurrent opinions explaining their views. how will those extensive opinions help shape how the court will approach future gun cases? >> you're referring to the rahami case. this was a case that entrenched from an earlier decision decided in 2022 that really expanded the scope of the second amendment. that was a decision written by justice thomas.

the court here says today that it's really applying that decision faithfully. in fact, it's narrowing it, saying that in order to judge common sense gun regulations, you don't look to what happened in 1791, you look to principles. are they the same kind of principles that guided gun regulations in the past. they don't have to be historical twins. the court says that's completely faithful. justice thomas, the author of the decision says it's not faithful. he would know. he wrote it. this is the court recognizing this decision on the ground was a disaster for lower courts and trying to tack back a little. >> ian, this is a major step back from its endorsement of the broad right to possess a gun outside the home back in 2022. does that indicate that some other long standing gun laws are likely to survive? >> well, the other thing that it did is it seemed a little bit to step back from the most extreme

form of originalism and saying that a law today does not have to have a perfect analysis with something that might have existed at the time of the founding, and thank god because that was a completely different era, and we would not want to live in the world as it existed them then. this court is fluid. it's fluid in the direction of the interests of the party that appointed the majority of justices, and makes it hard to predict what they will do in the future. >> melissa, ian, i want to thank you for breaking this down. in this vein of topic, we have to go back to the breaking news out of arkansas where nine people have been shot, two are dead after a grocery store shooting. the suspect is now in custody. that happened about 11:30 a.m. in fordice, arkansas. joining us now, marissa parra, and former hostage negotiator for the atf, msnbc contributor,

jim cavanaugh. we understand that two fatal and also an officer was shot. it's nonlife threatening injuries? >> reporter: i am just reading in right alongside you, and trying to catch up on all of this. i'm going to read through what i have so far here. our understanding is this happened at 11:30 in the morning local time in fordice, arkansas. police releasing this short statement saying that they responded to a shooting incident at the mad butcher grocery store. a total of nine civilians were shot. two of them succumbed to their wounds. two are dead from this. one law enforcement was also shot and has nonlife threatening injuries they say, they continue that the shooter was critically injured after being shot by law enforcement and has been taken into custody. obviously there are so many questions here and reactions are just starting to trickle in, but

we are hearing from the governor of arkansas, sarah huckabee sanders, who posted, quote, i have been briefed on the tragic shooting in fordyce. i'm thankful to law enforcement for their quick action. my prayers are with the victims and all of those impacted by this horrific incident. you can see what appears to be, looks like this is from the scene in fordyce, arkansas, and of course there are so many questions on what unfolded and of course all of the victims here and then further on, the investigation into what happened and why this happened, but right now, we are still just trying to get down those preliminary details, alex. >> absolutely. and we do understand about one hour from now, 4:30 eastern time, there will be a police presser on all of this. you'll be able to get more details as we're all trying to struggle to find out what's going on here. jim cavanaugh, let's bring you into the conversation, given

your experience as a hostage negotiator, it's likely none of that was done today. as we understand it, nine shot, two dead, shooter now in custody. it happened about 11:30 a.m., local time, about three hours ago, given the police presence there, what do you suspect happened here? >> you know, someone might have targeted the grocery store for a personal reason, alex. we don't know. or, you know, sometimes these shooters, these mass shooters, they're involved in a suicidal ideation, and they have suicide on their mind. but sometimes they'll go to a place that's aggrieved them, and other times they'll just look for a crowd. so, you know, that's kind of what we got. we'll hear from the police in the next hour, was this someone who worked at the grocery, had connections there, you know, nine people shot, and it appears from the facts from the reporter

on the scene, you know, an officer was shot, and the suspect's in custody. it sounds like the police stopped the shooting. we can see the july 4th fireworks tent behind the gas station there, which is ubiquitous in the south. you know, it's hot. it's hotter than the hinges of hell down here this week, and you know, people are -- crime in the summer time is always a little different, you know, people are irritable, people are acting out. people are out in the streets. and we get this stuff. >> look, here's something too, and this is specific to arkansas. it ranks, jim, dead last in this country in terms of gun safety. this has promoted the details by everytown for gun safety. ready for it? it ranked 50th in the country for gun law strength. arkansas has the weakness gun laws in the country.

has one of the highest rates of gun deaths in the nation. it has none of the most important laws in place. it does not require background checks. it does not require that firearms be stored, locked, unloaded and separate from ammunition in certain circumstances. assault weapons are not prohibited. so is it any wonder that you see this measure of violence when gun access seems to be readily available in arkansas? >> well, arkansas is like many other southern western states. in maine, they have very loose gun laws, and traditionally have had that, what's changed is, you know, the number of weapons on the street that are just killing power. gun laws are always lax in the southern states. i was a former uniformed officer and policed all of these states

with the atf. they always had lax gun laws, it didn't mean they had this ongoing carnage all the time. the gun laws were stricter. now we have loosened up gun laws to the point where, you know, every gun law is, you know, something against the second amendment. it's not really the case, but that's their arguments and they convince more people and more people, it's an absolute, and you can't have any gun control or gun safety law that helps the public to be able to, you know, live their lives in the pursuit of their lives and happiness in our founding papers, and can't do that. can't go to the store. you're going to get massacred, you know. >> yeah. >> unfortunately it's sad. we know there's two dead. we know there's an officer shot. and, you know, there are early

reports that it was a rifle. don't know if that's going to hold true or not. i don't know if that's been confirmed. we don't really know that. if it is, you know, these are devastating wounds. that come out of those rifles at 3,000 feet per second. they cause devastating wounds. the people should understand, a bullet coming out of a rifle or any gun for that matter, it's really like a flying drill bit. it's not a stationary slug. it's basically a drill bit coming at you at 3,000 feet a second and goes right through. >> that can leave a beyond brutal wound. we are speculating at this point, and in the confusion around something like this when we're still trying to get the details and we await that police presser in less than an hour now, there were reports of nine shot. now we're saying eight shot. we have confirmed two dead. that could have included the shooter who is listed in critical condition. we will get more, though, as i

thank both you, jim cavanaugh and marissa parra. we'll have more. we'll stay on this story, everybody. we'll bring more in the police presser coming in 15 minutes from now. and we'll be right back. l be ri. . it's tough to breathe and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets. but trelegy has shown me that there's still beauty and breath to be had. because with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open and prevents future flare-ups. and with one dose a day, trelegy improves lung function so i can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur.

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president biden and donald trump will face off on the debate stageless than a week from now. vice president kamala harris exclusively sat down with mika brzezinski with "morning joe" to lay out how high the stakes will

be, and here's some of their conversation. >> joe biden and this debate will make clear the contrast. you know, of the many issues in our country and our world that are complex and nuanced, november of 2024 is binary. and when you look at the difference, i would ask people to really imagine what the world will be like on january 20th, 2025. on the one hand, you have joe biden who has spent his life and career fighting for the well being of other people, including health care. on the other hand, you have the former president who spent full-time when he was president trying to get rid of the affordable care act, which if he is successful as president again would mean over 100 million people would be stripped of health care coverage. you have on the one hand joe biden who under his leadership, bipartisan support for the first meaningful gun safety legislation in 30 years, and on

the other hand, the former president who when speaking of survivors of horrendous gun violence says get over it, and we'll proudly talk to the nra about how he did nothing on the issue, and i could go on and on. i think that the debate is going to make clear the contrast between our president, the current president, who works on behalf of the american people, fights for the american people, and the former president who pretty much spends full-time fighting for himself. >> you can watch the full, exclusive interview this monday on "morning joe" starting at 6:00 a.m. new fundraiser numbers filed last night revealed the trump campaign's massive surge in donations, fueled by the former president's hush money conviction. the trump campaign says the entire operation raised $141 million including an historic $50 million contribution from megadonor.

beating the biden camp, but is maintaining they have more cash on hand than the trump team. joining us now, cnbc correspondent megan, with trump's surge in donations, what portion of these funds can be used for his legal expenses and how is that even monitored? >> great to be here with you, and it's a big question. it's a small question, easy question with a really complicated answer right, so the question is how much money went to the campaign. that's where the strings are attached. they can't be using direct campaign money to fund the legal bills. the money that went to the rnc could be used through legal loopholes to pay bills. some of the numbers we got yesterday, we know that the maga inc. pac got about $65 million. the rnc got just over $30 million. those are the funds that the trump campaign has been sort of taking advantage of some loopholes to use for legal expenses.

i will say one caveat here is not everybody had to report in may. the quarterly deadline will be next month. we're going to get a lot more answers by then on how much money they will have on hand to pay the legal bills. it's not the easiest money to track. it's a matter of sifting through fec filings and seeing how much has been dedicated to the law firms that are representing trump in a lot of these cases. but, you know, it sound like something that maybe is in a legal gray area and it is. the experts i spoke with say there is no limit once we're using the noncampaign specific money for how much he can spend on his case, as long as he's not spending them on personal legal cases. donald trump has found a little bit of a loophole there, too. he may be standing on pretty firm ground here. >> we're going to note that timothy melon donated the 50 million to a pac, and you have distinguished between donate to go a campaign versus that of a pac. megan cassella, from cnbc, thank

you very much. narrowed down the vp stakes north dakota governor doug burgum and ohio governor j.d. vance are at the top of the list to join the republican ticket. joining us now, nbc news senior national reporter, henry gomez. tell us about trump's month's long searches and how did trump narrow in on burgum and vance. >> alex, he spent a lot of time with both of these guys over the last few months. both have been working hard in unofficial positions for the vp role. they have been headlining fundraisers, popping up at trump rallies, and both of them went to the trial in new york, showed up there to be there for, you know, moral support, to speak out at the news conferences outside the courthouse. these are all things that make an impression with trump and with trump world, showing their dedication, showing their loyalty. as he spent more time with them,

it seems he has enjoyed their company and enjoyed what both of them could bring to the ticket. they also represent several factors that trump is trying to balance as he makes his decision. according to sources we have talked, trump is looking to find somebody that's both loyal and won't out shine him, perhaps somebody that's going to be drama free, steady, but also somebody that represents the future of the maga movement. and you can see in of these candidates where they have some overlap and where one might have an edge over the other. j.d. vance is 39 years old. he has only been in the senate for a couple of years, he's very much in touch with that movement. donald trump jr., the president's eldest son has publicly said that vance should be the pick, which is another item in his favor, or doug burgum ran for president himself, didn't get very far, quickly endorsed trump and started spending time with him on the campaign trail. >> let me ask you quickly about

senator marco rubio, though, you report he's also still being considered for the position, but apparently there's some doubt about his current standing. what's behind that? >> the doubts are lingering with him. residency issue. he and trump are registered to vote in florida. rubio would likely have to move. there are concerns about how that would work. i just mentioned all the things that burgum and vance have been doing for trump over the last few months. rubio has done left. he has been on cable tv but didn't go to the trial. he hasn't been headlining all of these fundraisers and showing up at the rallies as much as the other two have. there's a question of how enthusiastic he is for the job and then of course there are still some fresh some fresh memories of the 2016 campaign where you had marco rubio making small jabs at trump for small hands and the like. and you can bet there are people

making those decisions. >> didn't he call him little marco. up next what new polling shows about biden defectors and so-called double haters. who they are and why they're not ready to make a choice yet. readt shake up your shower with a flavor for every feeling. this dove freshens you up. this dove winds you down. this dove leaves you glowing. and this dove keeps you going. so whatever care you care about, there's a dove for every body. nothing dims my light like a migraine. with nurtec odt, i found relief. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment

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according to new analysis from the cook political report despite having the same two candidates as 2020 and azine electorate just as polarized there are still plenty of uncommitted or softly committed voters up for grabs, but who exactly are they and how can the candidates win them over? joining us now senior editor and elections analyst at the cook political report, david wassermann. this latest survey focuses on two key groups of voters. you've got the double haters and the biden defectors. so what's motivating them? let's start with the double haters. >> yeah, what's really

interesting about these double haters is that they are down on biden's stewardship of the economy. 84% of them disapprove of the job that biden has done on the economy, yet they're likelier than other voters to be more concerned about trump's temperament and legal problems than biden's age and ability level. so by 51-49 margin they're more concerned about trump's liabilities, and that's a little bit at odds with the overall electorate, which 53-47 in our swing state survey found voters are more concerned about biden's age. so they cross pressure voters and they tend to skew younger and non-white. what stood out to us they skew female, and the undecided pool both in terms of double haters and biden defectors is disproportionately women. >> okay, biden defectors just the name alone does that mean

they are gone forever? >> it doesn't. it means that these are people who voted for biden in 2020 but they're either uncommitted or planning on supporting a third party candidate or voting for trump, a very portion of those are for trump. but a lot of those are in the uncommitted camp. and what we know about these voters is demographically, you know, they are more likely to be young. they're more likely to be women and a little less college educated than the rest of the electorate. but also they are more concerned about the economy and pocketbook issues and more concerned about immigration and less concerned about abortion than the voters who have remained loyal to biden in the last four years. and so for these voters, it's really up to biden to convince them that trump would be a worse steward of the economy and would engage in mass deportations that would make them uncomfortable

and potentially worsen inflation. >> let's talk about polling because one of president biden's most frequent targets has become public polling data. his advisor don't dispute the race is certainly close, but from their perspective it's still too early for them to matter. you're a poll guy. how early should we be looking at the data right now? >> well, look, the same concerns about response rates that biden has tried to use to down-play the polling that we're seeing, it was also true in 2016 and 2020 that, you know, less than 2% of voters were picking up the phone with regard to the live interview polls. and in both of those years, trump outperformed the polling average at the end of the day and both in swing states and also in national polling. and so democrats have to hope that one of two things is true. either that this is kind of a different scenario than we had

in both those years because democrats are a little bit demoralized about biden's prospects right now and less likely to talk to a pollster, or that their prospects improve in some of these swing state polls. and we have seen since the trump verdict a little bit of an uptick in the margin in the presidential race for biden. it was about, you know, 1, 1.5 point lead for trump in our internal average prior to the verdict now, it's closing in on dead even. but we haven't gotten a lot of high quality polling since the verdict in these key battleground states where trump has consistently led, and that's where we'll really see whether the needle has moved. >> okay, david wassermann, your work is cut out for you for the next few months. that's for sure. thank you so much. we're going to go quickly back, everyone to the breaking news out of arkansas where at least two people are dead after a grocery store shooting injured

we believe nine people. have you been able to learn anymore? >> reporter: we actually did see an updated statement from arkansas state police that were clarifying the number of people shot. yes, nine people were shot according to arkansas state police. two of them are dead, and they further elaborated that we have the shooter, they say, the suspect shot by police taken into custody critically injured. and then among those who were injured remember nine people shot in total, they said one of them was a law enforcement officer who has nonlife threatening injuries. just to recap they say all of this unfolded around 11:30 in the morning local time at a grocery store called mad butcher. you are seeing what looks like a live view of pictures and images from the scene there. this is about 70 miles from the capital. we did hear from the governor of arkansas, sarah huckabee sanders, saying i've been briefed and i'm in constant contact with police. she said i'm thankful to law enforcement and first responders for their quick heroic actions

to save lives. my prayers are with the victims and all those impacted by this horrific incident. alex, of course there are so many questions here what exactly happened, why did this happen, and of course wanting talearn more on everyone involved, most importantly those victims, and those are things we'll bring you as we learn them. we do understand there will be an update from police in about 30 minutes, so we do hope at bare minimum we'll have more answer to those questions lingering. >> indeed. thank you for monitoring that for us and all the breaking news from arkansas. appreciate that. that's it for me, everyone. but join me again right here on msnbc 4:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow and sunday. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. happy friday. it's 4:00 in the east. a glimpse at how successful donald trump has been at moving the overton window in terms of wh