welcome back to the weekend, we start this hour with new developments and donald trump's classified documents case and judge cannon. yesterday, she actually held a hearing on whether jack smith

was legally appointed as special counsel, you heard that right. trump's lawyers argued that the attorney general's ability to appoint smith was comparable to the power of a shadow government, she questioned whether that was a realistic assessment but as we came to expect, she also displayed distress of the prosecutors. also the new york times reports that federal judges in south florida advised cannon to not take this case when it was assigned to her last year. cannon of course, refused. and here we are, we have to former federal prosecutors here to break it all down. legal analyst kristi greenberg, she's a former deputy chief for the southern district of new york and senior writer for political magazine, ankush khardori, welcome back to both. >> kristi you described the meeting as a meeting that could've been and email. >> have you ever been to a

meeting and you're sitting there wondering why are we here. this could have easily been resolved with an order, the question is basic, did merrick garland have the authority to appoint a special counsel, the answer is clearly, yes, the statutory authority that gives them the right to do so . the supreme court has said so. it's a deeply rooted tradition to have these outside counsel come in and conduct investigations, who said that, brett kavanagh, so even a judge who is new to this, knows they've got to follow the supreme court. i come back to like what is actually going on here. we've had about a year of judge cannon and seeing what she's up to and it seems like she has a playbook. the first is distract, take these very simple legal issues and make them seem really complicated, so we are not talking about donald trump willfully retaining classified

documents, step two is use these complications, use the suppose it complications to delay and say i need roofing, argument, bring an outside party, everybody come in and say what you need to say and after that we will have more breathing and i don't have to set a trial date because i've got so much i need to deal with and step three is disparage the prosecutors along the way, take every opportunity you can to school them and every time she runs this book, donald trump wins, i've been one of the people that gave for the benefit of the doubt and said maybe she's just incompetent or inexperienced but no, this is very calculated, and it shows biased because every time donald trump wins, when she runs the play. >> this a weird moment for everybody. i think even people who are just sort of adjacent to this,

kind of look at this and go, this is open and shut on this case. i want you to hear some of trump's own words, admitting he knows the materials in the classified documents case were classified listen. >> this was done by the military and given to me. i think we can probably, right? declassify it. as president i could have declassified that. isn't that interesting, it's so cool. you probably almost didn't believe me but now you believe me. >> now i believe you. >> it's incredible, -- >> this is classified, out of his own mouth. so what about this case or this

audio alone, does judge cannon not get in terms of moving this trial along? >> i'm undone. >> we are undone here. >> the actual facts of the case have been quite bad for trump the whole time, particularly that piece of evidence and others, what's keeping this case from going to trial is complicated. there's been sort of an ongoing debate for months now about, is judge cannon in the tank for trump, trying to become a supreme court justice in a second term, is she inexperienced or perhaps over her head, i don't know that we need to come down on one side. but i think the key thing at this point, this case is not going to go to trial before november. and we all have to sort of deal with that for better or worse.

and hopefully you know, they will come to some orderly resolution, she's holding the first of three days of hearing, when optimistic way of looking at this is she slowly trying to move her way through this but i will say one last point, it would have been much better for everyone except perhaps donald trump if she had taken the advice of those two judges who suggested to her that she give up this case. >> according to the new york times and i'm like well, she thought she was going to get her time in the sun, i think and it is shining, it's hot, and i don't know how it's going to come down. kristi, i would like to know why judge cannon grilled the federal prosecutors about if merrick garland is overseeing their work, she had a lot of questions i mean, let's pull this up. she grilled the prosecutors on friday and how closely the attorney general was looking at what they are doing, even though jack smith and his entire team had been clear that he is an independent operation

that's why a special prosecutor exists. why is she asking questions that we seemingly know the answers to already? >> so again, trying to view this in the most charitable way to her, she's looking at whether or not in the appointments clause, merrick garland the ag is allowed to appoint an inferior officer. and to suggest that's some sort of oversight that she was asking very specific questions about did merrick garland sign off and approve on the indictment and the prosecutor said we are not going to get, based on policy, we're not going to get into our internal liberations, she doesn't get to know the specifics of what went on at doj but she does know what the regulations say which is, merrick garland did have the opportunity if you thought that jack smith was going rogue

or doing something that was contrary to guidelines, to block his action, so that does show that yes, he was an inferior officer. he ultimately was overseeing, even if not in every aspect of day-to-day supervision of this case, there was ultimate oversight by the ag is not clear from the regulations, she didn't go half -- didn't have to go into the details and there is an irony here of trump's saying well joe biden is just, he's the one directing everything, he's the one telling us what to do and then going into court and saying, you know, jack smith is totally independent, so he can't be an inferior officer under this regulation, he's doing his own thing. and two things can't be true at the same time. you would expect an oral argument to be brought up. >> i think that is the point, which is neither of those things are true, and that is their intention, right, to sow doubt in the process itself. i'm looking at the banner at the bottom of our screen, it strikes me that you could

switch the names and say jack smith ways judge cannon's removal and that's what we could be talking about and part of the challenge for jack smith and his team is that they are -- if that was the path they wanted to go down then that would delay further. there's the bar he has to clear in terms of seeking her removal and there's the inevitable time that that bakes into a case has been delayed over and over. >> i think the odds of jack smith seeking to have her removed from the case, they remain quite low however, i don't think they rise argumentative to the high standard that tends to apply in these situations. i will say, the tension that you identified is one that courses throughout trump's legal defenses because again, you are seeing the political side of him which is this is a

biden lead conspiracy to take me down and prevent my presidency. the legal argument in court is that jack smith is untethered even in the justice department and when these paths cross, they are impossible to reconcile. but they are designed for two separate audiences which is part of what makes this whole thing pernicious. >> i'm curious as to how all of this plays out and ripples across the remaining cases that are there, certainly affecting the timeline as ankush mentioned earlier, this is not going to go to trial before november. you have other decisions that have to be made by this judge that could affect this case and

may have some ripple effects for example, if she accepts the idea that okay, i'm just going to dismiss it, if she dismisses it in a way in which the prosecutors can't bring the case again, that has an impact. how do you see what this judge is doing in this case, affecting the remaining cases and how prosecutors and judges are looking at what is before them? >> well i think it's really interesting that the defense team has been cherry picking what arguments they will bring before this judge which is different than the arguments they brought against the other judge. i think what she did couldn't necessarily affect what she's doing, granted neither judges decision is binding on the other but certainly given the same kinds of fact patterns so for example this appointment clause, whether or not merrick garland had the authority to appoint jack smith, that's an

argument that the defense team did not bring before judge chutkan, why? because they knew she would say you're done. we don't need to have a hearing and that could have at least made it look bad for cannon to do what she's doing now. i think the trump team is very aware of what they can get away with, the prosecutor didn't go right away to cannon to get a gag order, they went to judge chutkan first. i don't think any of these cases are happening before the election but i think you are seeing gamesmanship on both sides. >> stick around, if you thought eileen cannon was a little bit out there, wait until we talk about the supreme court upholding a ban on domestic abusers owning guns, this is

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clarence thomas was the only one who dissented. >> i thought that dissent i justice thomas was scary. i don't know about you, kristy, i was concerned . >> i think justice sotomayor is concerned, looking at her opinion, she just eviscerates justice thomas's dissent. she sing you are taking this position that for any gun regulation, any gun restriction, there needs to be an exact historical analog to it. and that just isn't how history works, right, and she points out rightly in her opinion, history is riddled with issues where women and people of color were not recognized in the way that they are now. so we need to look at history, yes but we also need to look at common sense and we need to

make sure that public safety, in today's society, with real issues that we are dealing with is being factored into our decisions. i mean, the fact that she wrote this concurring opinion, coupled with her dissent, in the bump stock case where you could just see how i mean, reading her words, it is just, she is feeling the same way you are, you can see that she's just feeling tortured with these kinds of very close textual readings that really don't take common sense into account. >> the common sense aspect of this is the thing that goes back and forth for folks because as kristy noted, the bump stock case, it said one thing, that's very different from what the court is saying here. the new york times noted in the bump stock case, when the supreme court last week struck down the ban, it has the potential to open the door not

just to bump stocks, the ruling could also undercut president biden's efforts to restrict other gun accessories that gives those weapons rapidfire capabilities. so you have this one environment in which the court is saying we want a public policy that allows the weaponization of the weapon, right, so you are taking something that it makes it something that it isn't. a bump stock makes a rifle and automatic weapon but then you have this case where they talk about individuals, again, who you presume would have the right to iv sing sing, you can in the situation but you can't in others. how do we determine where this court is in this game space right now? >> clearly they are very pro- gun. >> right, that is the central thread. >> that is not going to change for the foreseeable future. i do think the case involving

the best -- domestic abuser, we should be glad they reached the right conclusion -- >> 8-1. >> i'm not giving them any high marks for that. but on the bump stock stuff, right, i think we are seeing is the court, given its own jurisprudence has ended up irrigating to itself too much power in this space. too much power to micromanage which restrictions on guns they get to decide or is a constitutional, unconstitutional, and it is really, really, i think the last body that should be making these kinds of decisions. ideally it would be in congress with representatives if the congress were properly functioning. i don't think this is a thoughtful way for public policy to actually be made by these justices. >> can you believe it's june 22nd, and we still are waiting for a ruling on immunity?

five months out from the election, the next time we are going to get rulings is wednesday, so it'll be a day before the first presidential debate in addition to the rulings we are waiting on, in the idaho abortion case, the 1/6 case, i'm a little bit of a procrastinator but this is procrastinating at a level i've never seen before. >> it is, and it's maddening because this is something that could have been dispensed with very early on, should never have been brought up because the appeals court has really laid bare what this was, kristy, and what it wasn't and yet the court felt compelled to take this and hold it, and keep it close to its chest until what will be a very signifying moment, either the day before this debate or the day after this debate, with this decision -- >> or the day of the debate. >> which even still, they are

acting in a political space, and a political way, because we did not have to be here because the court knows well, whenever this decision drops, it will land politically, not judiciously, what do you take on this? >> i think it's twofold, in terms of the timing. i don't know, i think this immunity decision is not going to be one that is celebrated on the left. i think this will be one where if they were just going to say yes, we are affirming the d.c. circuit, that would have been done already and it was clear that was not where they were going. i think you are going to see -- i also don't think they are

going to say donald trump you have absolute immunity from criminal prosecution. i think it'll be somewhere in the middle. i think they will say some of these acts are personal and so we have to go back to the district court for some analysis here about, which ones he should have immunity from, that's not going to be a popular opinion, there's likely to be protest and they want to get out. so i think this will be delayed as much as they possibly can so when it drops they are hightailing it out of there. the illegals can go to their beach house and fly their flags without dealing with d.c. and the supreme court. and i also don't think they want to drop a controversial opinion right before the presidential debate and give a talking point to biden. it's a cynical view but i think this court has shown through its decisions that some cynicism is warranted. >> michael can i just say, it took the court, in the nixon case, it took them 54 days to

weigh this consequential decision and then they decided in 54 days. i find it very concerning and scary, these are the only words i can muster up today, that the supreme court could potentially come back and say, there are some personal acts, i just want to remind everyone out there that what donald trump's people are arguing, before the supreme court was that one, he should be able to order an assassination by seal team six of someone else, and be immune from being held criminally liable for that. donald trump once immunity from his attempt to steal an election. they tried to steal an election. michael, they tried to steal an election. >> i think regardless to kristy's point, how they think they are going to drop this and go, maybe this follows you, kristy greenberg and ankush

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campaign released its sharpest attack had yet, calling trump a convicted criminal. >> what you think about that senator mccaskill, there's been a lot of handwringing about what is the biden campaign going to go after trump and there it is. >> yeah, i think stating what has happened in our court system is important and i also think what is important is the president himself has criticized donald trump, not as much for his behavior, but for his attack on the system. for his attack on the jurors, for his all out assault on every institution in america that separates us from folks who have dictators and no

freedoms, the rule of law, the appropriate use of our military, you know, our court system where judges are making decisions based on the law and not on politics, that's what donald trump is trying to destroy right now. so yes i think it's good they are going after him as a felon, that's great but i think it's very important to keep reminding people first that donald trump only fights for himself and anything he does with anyone is transactional to help him, not you. even the corporate tax break that he promised to all the ceos, he said give me $1 billion and i'll take care of you and i get in office and this is all about what he can do for himself, that's important but it's also very important to remind people that he has no respect for the things that make us america and

make us the kind of country that people want to come to to live because they know their freedoms will be protected. >> i think claire makes an important point in the messaging here because you do have these narratives that have been perpetuated by the trump orbit for some time, lindsey graham is taking the new level up on that, let's take a listen to what he has to say about joe biden as the real felon. >> next time you hear the word felon, and this election, i think the felon in this election is joe biden. what he's doing to the country is criminal. >> so it is my numbingly stupid what he just said. because, what you're saying, i have a difference with his policies that somehow criminal and therefore he's a felon. donald trump was convicted by 12 of his peers in a new york courtroom 34 times, help us

narratively explain to folks why they should take the fog out of their eyes and understand the difference between these two, when they are looking at assessing which of these two men, not, is a felon but who should be president of the united states. >> the transmogrification of lindsey graham going from 2016 being a guy who wouldn't even say that he would vote for trump, he said donald trump was unfit, he said i cannot take the box for donald trump to lindsey graham talking about joe biden as a person, he said if you can't support joe biden, if you don't like him as a man, there's something wrong with you, he talked about a deep bond with biden and he talked about talking to joe biden about bo biden, this was a man who had a deep connection with joe biden and represented what we want people to do, to talk

about each other in a nonpartisan way and you see that lindsey graham has gone all in on trump-ism and it reflects, we often talk about this election cycle as defeating donald trump and lindsey graham is not up for reelection, we need to defeat all of them. they are part of the same problem, not just the rnc, the national republican senatorial committee, and to the point about the convicted felon language, yes, there is no equivalency between biden and trump, just like there was no equivalency when the republican congress was trying to force an impeachment of a biden administration official. there's no equivalency to the president son having a challenge with his personal life that has resulted in also a conviction and a sitting president of the united states, committing felony after fell need to say nothing of the many

felonies that he is still on trial four. >> claire, the -- politico talked about why the biden campaign finally decided to go in on trump about his new york verdict on tuesday and the right inside the biden campaign, officials cast the ad that we display, part of a $50 million june ad by as an effort to frame the election around a character contrast between the two candidates. they point to the latter half of the ad when they contrasted biden as working for the voters to lower healthcare costs. it builds off what lucy just said. and i want to note, i know some people who are convicted felons. the issue with donald trump, it's what he's been charged with doing, not just in this case but the other cases that are not obviously going to make it to a jury this go around, given the delays in the system but it is not just about what

he's done previously for what he would do and also what joe biden is going to do. i think it's right to talk about what it means for the people because that weighs into you know what they do when they go to the ballot box, right? >> i think this is a weird campaign in so many ways. can we put on the table just how weird it is that about half of america thinks it would be okay for donald trump to be president again. hard to wrap your arms around that one. but the other thing that is weird about this is we have two incumbents, we have somebody who claims he is still an incumbent and then we have a current president, so we really have two presidencies here. and i think what the biden

campaign has to do, we have young voters that don't remember that much about the trump administration, you know, they were not even paying attention four years ago. so we've got to contrast, the biden people have to contrast everything contrast character, contrast job creation, contrast chaos, versus normalcy, contrast protecting our allies around the world versus wanting to be bestie's with the worst, horrible dictators, i mean, leaders that kill their own family members for power. i mean this is the contrast that has to happen. there can be no you know, add oh, i want to introduce you to joe biden and how great he is, i want to tell you how terrible donald trump is, there has to be the contrast in every single message, and if they do that, those voters who are disengaged

right now, they will in fact especially in the battleground states, they will be bombarded with these contrasting messages. they will decide that if they want character and normalcy as a way to chaos and the most selfish man to ever walk the planet. >> i'm going to hold my thought. the senator and lucy are going to stick around. next, we also have part of the exclusive interview with vice president harris, what she says president biden needs to do to be trump in november. this is, folks, the weekend. with c hris counahan loca. so chris, tell us how leaffilter is different from every other gutter protection on the market. with leaffilters, patented filter technology, there are no gaps, no openings, no place for debris to get in at all.

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>> i would ask people to really imagine what the world would be like on january 20th, 2025. on the one hand, you have joe biden, who has spent his life and career, fighting for the well-being of other people including healthcare, on the other hand, you have the former president who spent full-time when he was president trying to get rid of the affordable care act which if he is successful, if he's president again which would mean over 100 million people will be stripped of healthcare coverage. on the one hand, joe biden who under his leadership, bipartisan support for the first meaningful gun legislation in 30 years. and on the other hand, the former president who says, get over it, when speaking about victims of gun violence. i could go on and on.

the debate will make a clear contrast. >> lucy, we were talking about a contrast in here you have vice president harris, very clearly playing out the contrast between the two candidates in this race and also, previewing i think, what we are going to hear joe biden do on the debate stage on thursday. >> yeah, not to get ahead of ourselves but it makes me excited to see vice president harris out on the campaign trail. that was a great clip. i think one of the things that we are saying is we have been going through this spring and now we are in summer and we are wondering, why is this race so close, how could it be so close, the most selfish man who's ever walk the planet, certainly the most unfit, i

think one of the races that one of the reasons why it's so close is that people were not hearing from trump the way we used to and the more and more we hear from him the more we remember, this person is a complete monster and we need to protect our country from him. and this debate being so much earlier in the season, having a june debate, that's very different. i think this is a real opportunity for biden. it will really kick off for people who are not paying as close attention, it'll kickoff the campaign season and it will be a reminder when the two men show up exactly as they are about what this is about this november. >> it was interesting, his memory of the apprentice was much clearer than his memory

about what he did in the white house. he stumbled in terms of what happened in terms of our interviews, when we spoke back to back, he couldn't remember talking to me between our first and second conversations and his short-term memory was not clear. it was very foggy and he had issues remembering things. >> again, that's about donald trump, that is the same line of attack that trump is trying to lobby against president biden which might explain senator, tell me if you think i'm wrong, why you have trump and his allies trying to reset expectations in advance of this debate, some even suggesting that the current president might be on drugs. >> they've got a problem, listen, this debate is a big deal. we need to be honest about that. and joe biden has to come out like a junkyard dog and he has to be a state of the union but with more haymakers, he has to be willing to get down and fight with this guy in a way

that shows people that he strong. what he says is not as important as how he says it. and the trump campaign has set up joe biden in a way that very few candidates get set up. they have tried to convince people for the last six months that he can't walk or talk. and so when you do that for six months, when you like edit clips to make it look like he's not where he thinks he should be, i mean, they've gone way out of their way to make this man look incompetent. when joe biden shows up and not only, he doesn't respect donald trump's i don't think he's going to be afraid to say shut up man, again, or maybe more like do you ever quit lying, i mean, he's got to do that. he's got to leave the presidential dignified joe biden at the door and he's got to appear as scrappy joe from scranton who's willing to take

on big guys that are not there for the little guy. and if he does that, you know, donald trump, has his own cognitive issues. frankly he's got things that are more serious. but the point is that joe biden has an opportunity here, he has an opportunity to clear the air about whether or not he strong enough to be commander-in-chief for another four years and i don't know about you guys, i can't wait. i'm going to atlanta, this is like the super bowl of all super bowls for all of us who are genetically wired to love politics more than we should. >> that's a very good point. it's interesting, though, when you look at going into this debate, lucy, how this narrative plays for democrats, how do you think republicans are positioning themselves for this debate and not just going in, but coming out of it,

because this will be a really raw moment, these two men without an audience, without all the clapping, the ideas are there, the biden administration is leading with clips of trump and trump is trying to project biden as aloof and out of touch. how do you think republicans carry the narrative? >> i think one of the problems that republicans are facing that they have not had in previous cycles is that there is such an absolutism about trump. it used to be, that they were trying to thread the needle a little more like well, maybe you are not for trumpet you can be for me, and we need to hold the fed in and all that is gone. but now they have hitched their wagon to trump's star so significantly that these guys have to be all in for trump.

it's not just the trump campaign or rnc, it's also the and rcc, they are so inextricably linked and i think because of that, and that comes from something that we talked about before which is trump has a very high floor but a low ceiling and more and more, now we are 10 years into this horrible situation of trump-ism but that means that normal people want nothing to do with republicans, for officeholders that means they have to hold more tightly to trump to hang onto the energy of his cold, so i actually don't think we are going to wake up friday morning and see a bunch of republicans going well, we wish you had taken a different tone on this. >> you are going to wake up and see him with glenn youngkin. i don't know where the music came from but it was on.

>> you get the fanfare going out the door. thank you for being with us. again, the exclusive interview with the vice president will air this coming monday at 6:00 a.m. eastern on morning joe, right here on msnbc. much more ahead for you folks right here on the weekend, grab your coffee, one round left, let's let's go.

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we have had a conversation today apparently and another news network they are talking about the heat, bring the dogs inside. >> ring the dogs inside. jesse waters, bring the docs in. the debate is happening this week. let me just tell you guys, i actually love debate prep, >> of course you do. >> of course you love debate prep. >> i was in joe biden's debate prep in 2019 and 2020 so i can only imagine how it's going right now. i'm sure they are in intense sessions but i think we are going to see a debate on wednesday about policy issues that will start off strong and mild-mannered -- i'm sorry, thursday. wednesday, supreme court

decisions. it'll start off highbrow and then donald trump is going to say something and the gloves are going to be off. >> i think it'll be an attempt at a policy discussion. there will be questions on policy and i think there will be answers attempted by joe biden on policy. i do not think that donald trump is wired to have a substantive discussion on policy. he has grievances that he needs to convey and have addressed and they relate around his own conviction and it will also be a projection around the conviction of hunter biden and the false equivalencies that will be made there. donald trump has been running since november of 2022. okay, and so, when in that time have we heard him go out and actually lay out what an energy

policy or a real immigration policy or i don't know, and air conditioning policy you know? he's talked about electric car batteries and sharks that's about it. >> and that's why the generalized retort can be, he want to talk about himself and i want to talk about what i can do for you. >> coming up, congressman presley of massachusetts. we will be right back. right ba. and i also have a non-profit. but no matter what business i'm in... my network and my tech need to keep up. thank you verizon business. (kevin) now our businesses get fast and reliable internet from the same network that powers our phones. (waitress) all with the security features we need. (aaron) because my businesses are my life. man, the fish tacos are blowing up! so whatever's next... we're cooking with fire. let's make it happen! (vo) switch to the partner businesses rely on.

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