that statistic is true, by

the way, of canada, australia, europe, everywhere, because there is a massive disincentive, particularly if your undocumented, to protect committing a crime. it is a myth that continues to permeate. it is just not true. >> it continues to permeate, because they continue to push it. they believe it is the strongest argument they have. >> i am glad you pushed back on its because it is just not. >> we got alecia in the text. i was like, if alecia were here, she would say, reads text message, okay. >> i loved it, it is great to see you all. have a great rest of your day. and "velshi" starts now. hey, good morning. it is saturday, june 22nd. 115 days have passed since the supreme court initially agreed to hear donald trump's outlandish claim of absolute residential immunity. and the

weight continues. it will be at least several more days until the justices issued their own opinion on one of the biggest and most consequential cases in the court's history. with the presidential election for an half months away, everyday we don't get a decision in this case brings the twice impeached, recently convicted former president one giant step closer to evading a criminal trial over his role in the january 60 insurrection. regardless of the outcome, the implications are concerning. if the majority of the court somehow finds that trump is immune from criminal prosecution, then the former president may never be held accountable for the chaos that he stirred up in the waning days of his presidency. it would also be an endorsement of some truly, preposterous arguments made by trump's lawyers during the hearing in april like the suggestion that it would be okay for the president to stage a military coup, or to order silting six to assassinated political opponents. trump's lawyer argument argued,

those orders could be considered official presidential acts, that would be on prosecutable, left the president is impeached and convicted by congress first. that would present a frightening prospect, especially since trump has been running his presidential campaign on the promise of exacting retribution and revenge against his enemies if he wins a second term. many experts don't believe that even this supreme court will go that far with its decision. at this late stage in the election season, a loss in this case will still be a major victory for trump. even if the justices find that trump's prosecution can move forward, it is logistically improbable to hold a trial now with just four and half months to go until the election. that is the unique dilemma district judge tonya segment will have to confront once the supreme court drops its decision , whatever that will be peer

trump's election interference case has been indefinitely paused since late last year, we trump's team appealed is a unity it's immunity claim to high court. when she is allowed to present proceedings, she will give both sides approximately three months to prepare for trial. if we get the immunity decision next week, the earliest a trial could start is probably the first week of october. last summer, prosecutors said that they expect the trial to last about four to six weeks. in that scenario, the government will be be presenting its case as early voting gets underway in some states and the trial itself could last through election day. it is unlikely that any judge anywhere in the country would find it wise to proceed to trial close to an election, especially when the defendant is a leading presidential candidate. that is why the supreme court's glacial pace in announcing his decision regarding trump's immunity claim is so egregious. it has tipped the scales of

justice in trump's favor. it has been a disservice to the electorate. we don't know why the court is still sitting on this decision. recent ethnic scandals involving some of the justices make it difficult to give this particular court the benefit of the doubt. that is a part of the crisis of legitimacy we've been talking about in recent weeks. regardless, what we do know is this, the supreme court has the ability to resolve matters swiftly when the case calls for it. back in 1974, when the supreme court ruled that then-president richard nixon had to comply with a subpoena, ordering him to turn over some tapes to the watergate special prosecutor, chief justice warren burger wrote an opinion or the court that the reason they took up the case was quote, because of the public importance of the issues presented, and the need for their prompt resolution, and end quote. in that instance, it only took the court 16 days of the oral arguments to issue an decision.

in the case of bush v. gore in 2000, the hearing was held december 11th. a decision was announced one day later. even the current supreme court has proven it can move much faster on urgent matters. earlier this year, it only took justices 25 days after oral arguments to the side that trump can remain on the ballot in colorado and other states. it has now taken the court more than twice as long to issue a decision on trump's absurd claim of residential immunity. nearly 2 full months have passed since the supreme court held a hearing in that case. now, regardless of what the court decides, it is too late. joining me now, leah littman, professor of law at the university of michigan law school, cohost of the script-- "script grundy progress." and, most of the sisters- in-law podcast and msnbc political analyst . good morning to both of you. thank you for being here.

you published an important piece on this very subject in the "new york times" this week in which you wrote quote, for those looking for a hidden hand of politics in what the supreme court does, there's plenty of suspicion on donald trump's as yet undecided immunity case, given its urgency. you have acknowledged that there could be legitimate reasons for the delay, but it does not really matter now.>> even if the supreme court is in good faith, trying to decide this case according to a normal schedule, the effect and everyone knows the effect of taking this long is to basically give donald trump a kind of immunity, even if they ultimately reject the immunity he is arguing for in the case. they are ensuring he is not going to have to face a jury of his ., who would decide whether he interfered with a lawful transition and peaceful transition of power by contesting the results of a

presidential election, even as he is running to assume that office once again. again, that is assuming everyone is acting in good faith. but what we know from all of the extracurricular activities is, many of them have pretty partisan leanings. the recent stories about justice alito's homes flying multiple flags associated with the stop the steel movement, the movement to overturn the 2020 election, raise serious questions about whether any individual justice is attempting to drag their feet in order to give donald trump this type of reelection immunity. >> kimberly, what happens in the case donald trump wins the election and none of these cases go to trial, and indicates that donald trump loses these elections and none of these cases have gone to trial? >> what will very likely happen is, we will see the state case, which state case in georgia, which has already been delayed, continue to do so, and it be a lot more difficult to try to

move forward on that with someone who is a sitting president. as for the federal cases, donald trump will be in charge of the doj, which will all but surely dropped those cases and there will be no trial to go forward at any point. and what could be even more concerning is, based on how this court rules on the immunity issue, that is still a decision that will be hanging out there and binding on all future presidents until, or unless it is overturned by the court. you could get a double whammy there that not only will donald trump be in office, he will be out of reach of the criminal courts seeking to hold him accountable, but there could also be some really bad precedent of that that immunity for future presidents he can exploit as well. segment ironically, the trump team was arguing the opposite, saying, if you don't give immunity, presidents will continually prosecute the defeated. one of the most profound things is that trump's lawyer argued some absurd things at the hearing, military coups, tilting six when he was asked

about that to assassinate a political opponent. you would think, given that these were examples that donald trump's attorneys provided, that justices would have an easy time striking down this argument. what is the potential legal hold up? what are they struggling with? >> during the oral arguments, it seemed as though justices were basically attempting to inject all kinds of propensities in this case. rather than providing the actual facts, they pondered, what if the president makes a simple mistake, and is then charged with a crime, as if the stop the steal movement was an see that donald trump did for 2 months, leading up to january 6th. basically, what they were trying to do, write an opinion or the ages that would cover every possible question related to presidential immunity, even though that is entirely unnecessary in this case. all they would have to do is decide whatever the scope of presidential immunity is, at a

minimum, it just does not cover to attempting to overthrow the results of a valid election. that would be very easy for them to write and they could save the potential difficulty questions for later. >> kimberly, we are also still waiting on fisher b. the united states, another big decision related to the prosecution of january 6 participants. talk to me about the interplay between that and donald trump's federal interference election interference case too. >> yes. there is both direct and indirect interplay there, ali. the case is challenging whether some of the charges donald trump is facing, as well as hundreds of the january 6 right participants are facing or have been convicted of involve interference with official proceeding. that is an enron era law that was passed in the wake of that scandal, that was meant to address things like destroying documents, which is what happened in the course of that investigation, but that the

federal authorities had a difficult time prosecuting, so that new law was passed. the january 6th defendants are challenging that law thing, that was not meant to apply to the sort of circumstances on january 6th, even though there was an official proceeding, the certification of election results, that was meant more toward financial fraud, destruction of evidence. the supreme court will decide whether those charges will be struck down, those convictions reversed, and two of the charges , as i said, donald trump is facing in his federal trial in d.c. involving those charges as well. >> the other trump supreme court case earlier this year, regarding whether or not he was eligible to be on the ballot, not only did the court decide that within 25 days of oral arguments, they resolved it before colorado's primary, which was uniquely important in that particular instance. it suggests that the court is acutely aware of the political calendar and other external

forces, which leads one to the conclusion that there may be deliberately slow walking in this one. >> they are absolutely aware of the potential implications of the timing of their decisions. i think it is important to underscore the colorado case, they still managed to get out an opinion less than one month after argument in order to ensure the issue would be resolved before super tuesday, even though there was considerable disagreement in the case. there were multiple opinions, a separate writing by justice barrett, and a separate writing by the three democratic appointees, and still, they managed to get out within a month. even if the immunity is invoking some kind of conflict among the justices, it is very possible for them to still get out a decision quickly. >> let's talk more here it is a bit like reading tea leaves. could they delay they are having have something to do with real disputes between members of the courts? we have seen some fierce distance from some justices and some of the decisions that have already come. is that what is

happening here or something else mechanical, where perhaps one justice is holding us up because they are busy writing their dissent or concerns? >> i think it is very likely the former. we have seen, in recent years, this court take longer and longer to decide you are and fewer cases each term. what i think is happening there is that there used to be a consensus building center, i don't mean an ideological center. justices on the court were incentivized to find consensus in the case they were deciding. even if it meant a very narrow decision, if they did not agree totally, if the venn diagram can overlap a little bit, just write a narrow decision about that overlap that could get a broad consensus. that makes it a lot faster to circulate and get out an opinion . right now, you don't have people like that, like anthony kennedy and stephen breyer who can work with elana kagan and the chief to build that

consensus. you have nine justices on their own island. the decision that came out about that federal ban on handguns for people under domestic violence orders was a perfect example of that. you have a majority opinion, but you also had five other opinions of each justices that did not have any interplay with each other. there were each single justices or a pair of justices, given their view on the world that is how this court is operating. they are not playing well together. that is why all of the consequential decisions, all of the remaining decisions on the docket are big decisions, highly consequential, and are taking so long for the court to get out . >> i appreciate your analysis, both of you, this morning. thank you for being with me. leah litman, cost of "strict scrutiny podcast." and kimberly adkins, senior columnist at ""the boston globe" opinion" and an msnbc political analyst. coming up, ayana presley of

massachusetts joins me to discuss her new role in a new initiative for project 2025, the far right's vision for a trump amount reimagined american government. plus, by the 10 commandments being displayed in public schools is not just bad policy, it is a sign of growing alliance between the maga movement and christian nationalists. i will talk to deputy national security advisor to president obama about the policy for the world as it is not and why it is important we adjust accordingly. and i will call to order this week's meeting of the "velshi" book club. then layton joins me to discuss his powerful memoir, "heavy." o the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt.

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shooting at a matt butcher grocery store in fordyce, arkansas, about 70 miles south of little rock. officials say, two police officers are among the wounded and some of the other people shots are in extremely critical condition. police took the shooter into custody following an exchange of gunfire. joining us me now is for you, thank you for joining us this morning. what more do we know about the investigation and the victims? >> reporter: good morning, ali. fordyce is the latest community in america to wake up to the horrific reality that a mask shooting occurred in their backyard. this is a small town of about 4300, very tightknit. a lot of people knew one another, new someone inside the grocery store and frequented themselves. this started shortly before noon yesterday when witnesses say, the gunmen began shooting in the parking lot of the grocery store. nbc has obtained video of what appears to be the suspect with what looks like a long gun, pointing and shooting at various cars.

we also heard from a witness inside of one of those cars with her sister. she says, the gunmen shot at her car unfortunately, only shot the tire and then proceeded to go inside the store. witnesses describe people literally running for their lives as far as the victims, as you mentioned, two law- enforcement officers were shot. they are expected to survive. the gunmen and suspect in the situation has been identified as 44-year-old travis eugene posey, is also expected to survive. the other victims have not been identified by authorities just yet. our local affiliate here in arkansas is saying, one of those victims who died is a 23- year-old nurse, a mom who has a 10 month old child, who came to this grocery store on her day off. as you can imagine, completely tragic for that family and his community as a whole. as far as posey goes, he is now facing three counts of capital murder and other charges could be coming. ali. >> thanks very much, what a story. next, democratic

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pressley of massachusetts, who is a great friend of the show. i am glad to have you back here, thank you for being on the show with us. i would love to talk to you about this, except, my colleagues over on the show "the weekend" before me at the president of the heritage foundation, kevin roberts on. it was a bit of a jaw-dropping interview because he said the quiet parts out loud, which is what project 2025 years, which is what it is important for people to understand that. how do you in short form tell people who don't know or don't understand the danger of this thing with his 920 page document is? >> project 2025 is a chillingly similar mccarthyism, 900 plus blueprint policy, not proposal. these are plans. and it is a transition plan. it calls for the replacing of dedicated civil servants with trompe l'oeil is. in fact, they already have a

open portal where they are accepting applications to test people's loyalties to donald trump and a dismantling of the federal government every as we know it. it would cause harm to every single person that calls this country home. it would eliminate critical title i funding for k-12 schools. it bans books, bans abortion, it bans words like abortion, diversity, equity and inclusion . it has been my experience in my five years in congress that these extremists do not make threats, they make promises. we have established project 2025, this task force, to raise public awareness about this, to use every congressional tool available to us from oversight and accountability, to ensure that this does not become a reality. although, much of the application of project 2025 and this hateful, harmful policy blueprint in transitional plan

has focused on federal agencies , it also implicates the courts . i just want to reference that, given your earlier segment because the heritage foundation and the same maga donors that produced this, are the same people influencing supreme court justices like justice alito and justice thomas, who want to seat other justices like them on the bench. so, this cannot happen without the election of donald trump, project 2025, and it cannot happen without the supreme court being listed as co- conspirators and accomplices. which is why in my opinion, we need to expand the court, bind a code of ethics and ban any justices with a history of injustice or impropriety on the court. >> it is interesting is that these don't make threats, they make promises. when kevin roberts was on with my colleagues, he brought up one of the things you mentioned, this concept on how

to deal with abortion. he is not sugarcoating it. he says exactly what he means. here's what the organization and plan has to say about abortion. >> abortion is not healthcare but i find it really interesting, if not worse, that you would not support the change of the department into the department of life. i thought we were all in support of life. we believe imminently in women's rights, particularly women's rights in the wound. the real question you should be asking-- >> if i may come though, i do ask questions, i want to know, do we believe-- >> -- abortion can happen until three days after the person is born, this is absurd training. >> that is an absurd assertion. as a person with an actual womb, i'm telling you, that does not happen. does heritage and project 2025 believe that a woman should be able to have an abortion if her doctor says that she needs one, yes or no question here to >> abortion is not healthcare. abortion is murder of a human being.

>> i appreciate there is no ambiguity with roger 2025 me but what i think you are trying to do is get the american voters to understand, there is no ambiguity. like that answer you provided, there are 15 more answers about that like everything else in project 2025. >> absolutely. we want everyone to know what kind of harm would be caused by this frightening blueprint policy plan and transition plan. we have to do everything possible to stop project 2025 from being made real. >> let's talk about your congressman, either way, your collie, the congressman jamaal bowman, running for reelection in new york against westchester county executive, george latimer. he is hosting a rally in the bronx today. you will be joining him on the campaign trail tomorrow. we've got a primary next week, talk to me a little about this, what is going on in that primary? >> well, yes, i am hitting the

ground and coming in to do everything possible to ensure that jamaal bowman is returned to represent the new york 16th. jamaal bowman was decisively elected by a broad and intersectional coalition, and he has represented them well in that time. this is in some ways somewhat who is an advocate, effective legislator, someone who i have gone to for partnership on everything and his leadership on everything from climate, to environmental justice, fighting for clean water, to ensure things like clean water and housing are not a privilege, but are a human right. i have partnered with him on working to dismantle the school to prison pipeline, to address the crisis of mental health and anxiety amongst our young people . he is a father of three children. and i know he sees every child as his own and wants to ensure in particular that those two

daughters that he is raising, that they grow up in a world where they don't have fewer rights than myself, and other women do right now, given this merge toward a ban on abortion, the banning of reproductive rights, and justice, and maternal justice. he is an effective legislator, decisively elected. he is proven, an advocate, an educator, and he champions progressive policies that are sorely needed, and very popular. that is exactly why he has earned the endorsement of senator elizabeth warren, amongst others and has the respect of his caucus, which is also why he has the endorsement of hakeem jeffries. >> is it your concern this challenge and the forces behind it have more to do with the positions he has taken on the war in gaza? >> jamaal bowman has taken strong, progressive stances period, so this has made him a

target for right wing special interests who want to silence him. they want to silence jamaal bowman, silas the progressive movement, which only continues to grow. jamaal bowman is someone who leads with love, who centers the people. he has been my partner in good on so many issues of consequence from childcare, to addressing the baby formula shortage during the pandemic, to fighting against the decriminalization of black and brown students in our schools. i want to say this, although he is a dear friend, i did not give jamaal bowman my endorsement. he earned it. he earned it in the same way he was decisively elected to congress. he has earned it indeed in what he does on behalf of the people each and every day. at freshman orientation, they told us to never forget the plot . it is easy to forget the plot in the process of legislating a government. jamaal has never and will never forget the people, all the

people. >> i want to ask about the consequences of the upcoming election, but we will take a quick break. if you don't mind hanging out for me, we will continue this conversation on the other side. i'm in... my network and my tech need to keep up. thank you verizon business. (kevin) now our businesses get fast and reliable internet from the same network that powers our phones. (waitress) all with the security features we need. (aaron) because my businesses are my life. man, the fish tacos are blowing up! so whatever's next... we're cooking with fire. let's make it happen! (vo) switch to the partner businesses rely on.

congresswoman ayanna pressley joint me again. my colleagues this morning on "the weekend," also asked kevin roberts about whether the heritage foundation would accept the results of the election in november. i was gob smacked by the response. let's listen together. >> is your organization going to accept the results of the 2024 election, regardless of the outcome? >> yes, if there isn't massive fault like 2020. >> what does that mean? >> there is massive fraud. >> there was not massive fraud. >> a database has documented that over years. by the way, the heritage foundation has been concerned

about election integrity to decades, not just 2020, we have been documenting this problem for a very long time. >> i believe according to the heritage foundation, sir, by your account, heritage foundation has done an investigation and according to your account, there have been 1513 proven instances of voter fraud across the united states since 1982. 1513-- >> the democratic party is very good at fraud. >> i-- ayanna pressley save me. kudos for their patients in that conversation. he is on national tv lying. >> it would be funny if it weren't so frightening. again, it is more of the same year these are the same people who seek to erase history, to revise and rewrite history, the same people who believe that insurrectionist are just everyday tourists just walking about the capital.

it is delusional. and it is frightening that people like him, i mean to say that they have always cared about election integrity, give me a break. again, project 2025, we have to do everything possible in this test was to leverage every congressional tool available to act as the best disinfectant and make sure people are aware of these policy plans and this transition plan, and this blueprint to dismantle the federal government as we know it. everything a person we call who calls this country home, will experience harm. it is a promise, much like outlined in project 2025, the beginning. more dominoes have fallen. first, it was dobbs, and they went after contraceptives, then ivf, then mifepristone. they will enlist anyone as co- conspirators and accomplices in

this hateful and harmful agenda. and that is exactly why i'm coming to new york to campaign for my colleague, the effective legislator jamaal bowman, who fights for workers rights, climate justice, for childcare, infrastructure and economy, for equitable equality schools, this progressive movement has continued to grow. this is in many ways backlash to that. i don't know if you know this but the congressional caucus is currently the biggest ideological caucus in congress. what that says to me is that progressive policies are popular and deeply resonate because they go as far and as deep as we heard. jamaal bowman recognizes the hurts and that are destinies are tight and we are one human family, from ukraine, to gaza, to israel, to massachusetts, to haiti, to the new york 16. >> the idea that project 2025

is a reaction, because their whole section on climate change refers to those who believe in climate change, global warning warming as a woke agenda, and they will reverse all of that. i think as you said, if sunlight is the best disinfectant, talk about this every week so americans understand those who are wavering, thinking about voting for donald trump understand, don't be surprised if you get what they promised you. >> sign a light and we will keep working in the meantime. >> ayanna pressley, thank you for joining us, democratic representative ayanna pressley of massachusetts. coming back, we will do a deep dive into project 2025, which has an impact on our future. if you can't get-- think the climate can get any worse, waiting to hear about roger 2025 on climate change. ate cha blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours.

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or scan this code now. sign up with your monthly gift today, and we'll send you this “care. no matter what” t-shirt. it is your right to have safe health care. that's it. we won't give up, and we won't back down. we need you now more than ever. go online, call, or scan right now. america is back. america is back. diplomacy is back. it is the center of our foreign policy. as i said in my inaugural address, we will repair our alliances, engage with the world once again, not to meet yesterday's challenges, but today's and tomorrow's. >> joe biden just weeks after becoming president in 2021,

laying out his foreign policy vision. his 2020 pitch on foreign policy, much that anything else, was wrapped in the context of the trump administration. biden believed america had to restore its reputation among its allies and adversaries, reenter long-standing agreements that trump had shrugged off and remind the global population that america cares about democracy and its protection. while he has made inroads, faultlines for global conflicts exist. in a new piece for foreign affairs magazine, the former obama deputy national security advisor writes that the most glaring issue with foreign-policy in 2024 is the quote, washington has failed to do the necessary audits of the post-cold war foreign policy discredited u.s. leadership. washington has yet to recalibrate for a world of overlapping allegiances and weakening local institutions. the rules-based international order that set into place

following the cold war has wavered, beginning with 9/11, the war on terror, investing now in the creeping authoritarianism in europe and in the united states. rhodes writes, the u.s. government music foreign-policy for the current state of the world. a new american strategy. the one key part of that new american strategy is avoiding what he calls maximalist objectives, winner take all style foreign-policy, which can be impossible to achieve and damaging to our diplomatic reputation. rhodes writes quote, even with united states military advantage, china will develop advanced technologies and maintain its claim over taiwan. even with sustained u.s. support, ukraine will have to live next to a large, nationalist, nuclear armed russia. even with its military dominance, israel cannot eliminate the palestinian demand for self-determination. a part of the president's job is to bring expectations among

both. still, rhodes is quick to threaten violent-- biden for the strides he has made. earlier in his turn, paid the way for his response against russia, when vladimir putin invaded ukraine with the chips act, the white house has prioritized manufacturing and subsidized electric vehicles to counter china's emphasis on that front, but there is more to be done. been rhodes joins me after a quick break. do not go anywhere. anywhere.

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joining me now to discuss the ideas behind his new piece titled, quote, foreign-policy for what it is, is ben rhodes, or national security advisor to president obama and author of the book, quote, after the fall the rise of authoritarianism and the world we've made. ben's story is the cover story on the issue of foreign affairs. good to see you. thank you for joining us this morning. i want to read a passage from your article, in which you say, meeting the moment requires abandoning the mindset of american privacy and recognizing that the world will be a turbulent place for years to come. above all, it requires building the bridge to the future, not the past, which is a through line that runs through your

story. the future is not what we are used to. it is not what policymaking in washington has been accustomed to. what does that mean in practical terms? >> well, i think the united states sometimes, because of its muscle memory, still acts as if we have the degree of power and influence we had in the world in say the 90s or immediate post-9/11 era. where we essentially called the shots, now, we are living in a world where america's standards have been diminished, from the iraq war, the financial crisis, to the election of donald trump and the first trump presidency, but also because russia is committed to tearing down the world order and china is committed to building an alternative world order. this is that clean the primacy, this is that clean to the idea that we can call the shots and dictate how things will play out . there is a lot in the world that is pushing back against that impulse, including a war in ukraine, a war in the middle

east, and some faultlines between the united states, china, and asia. and the last thing i think any of us wants is this drift we have been in sort global configuration. i think the more america tries to insist that all of these issues have to go entirely how we want them to be, paradoxically, the less likely we are to make progress in the more likely we are to get into conflict. if you're matching that against a bunch of other views, nationalist countries duking it out, that leads toward. that is what history tells us. >> how would you characterize for a vote are the distinctions between joe biden and donald trump as it relates to your conversation, very detailed conversation about a foreign policy for america? what would you say you are making a choice between? you and i know we both love global affairs, but not typically a thing a vaulter decides on. >> first of all, i would say,

these things do matter. take a look around the world. these are real wars. the largest land war in europe since world war ii. a major conflict in the middle east and a conflict with china that could door them all. we are back in the kind of cold war days, ali . if things go wrong, they could go wrong very badly. in terms of the choice, i think donald trump, let's be blunt, he is not respected. he is not taken seriously around the world. he is a chaos agent. he is incapable of working with other countries to solve problems. one of the arguments i may, donald trump's arrival with china's attributed significantly to the inflation we deal with in our country. donald trump is tearing up agreements contributed to, i believe october 7th, between israel and hamas. donald trump will not solve these problems and he will make them worse. you are taking a chance on a volatile strong man sharing the stage globally with a bunch of

other relatively strong men in vladimir putin, and i don't think that is a recipe for solving problems here. trump offers chaotic risks, i think about it at least offers, the predictability of an america that is functioning in line with a set of allies, functioning in line with a set of familiar interests to the united states. i would like to see biden abandon what we have seen, for instance in gaza, where we are going through the motions of how we used to do things. we have two help israel, signed on to a maximum of objective to destroy thomas that is not achievable. i think biden needs to let go of these presumptions that we can shape things in the way we once did 20 or 30 years ago. >> let's zero in on that issue of israel into gaza. there are some people who have said, they will not vote for joe biden or withhold their votes. they may not vote against him or vote donald trump, as a result of the bearhug of israel.

is there something when i am sure the administration is working hard to try to get the cease-fire deal that seems remarkably allusive, but is there a world in which that deal can be good enough to convince people that biden can be the right place on this and you should not withhold your vote because the chaos of having donald trump as president will not look good for anybody as it relates to the middle east? >> first of all, as someone who has been quite critical, as you know, ali, of their gaza policy, i do have to say that elections are not about perfect outcomes, they are about choices. donald trump would be far more damaging and embrace the far right and annexing the west bank. there will be no assistance getting into the people to gaza. the one choice i will say, even with the dissatisfaction many people, including myself, feel over gaza. i think what is incompetent of the administration is to recognize good politics is not whether or not israel is a good prime minister, good politics is good politics and embrace the

government in u.s. history has not led to policy outcomes, it has contributed to a sense of impunity. they don't need to have a plan for gaza. they can have this absurd objective of destroying hamas, which is not achievable. hamas's leadership is not even in gaza, and let alone be capable of being destroyed to the kind of military we have seen. i would love for them to be straightforward with people about what they are trying to achieve, instead of telling us about a israeli proposal. the israeli prime minister can say himself, let's lay out, here's what our objective is and if you don't see the israeli government moving in line with the objective, we don't need to ship them offensive military weapons for the main defense of what they are doing. i do think people want policy outcomes as much as they want to see political messaging on this. i just came back from central asia, where it was amazing to see, whether you like it or