have you watch the

sopranos? if not, hit pause and go watch all of the seasons and come back in a couple weeks and start this again. the first season of the sopranos is 13 episodes long. the sopranos, oppositely, is one of the greatest achievements ever in american drama and contention for one of the greatest television shows ever made in any country on any subject. in season one of the sopranos, you have to get through half the whole season. i think you have to get to the seventh episode or something before you get anything that seems like it is a back story on your lead character. here is a story about a man in therapy. yes, he is a gangster but he is a man in therapy. right from the very start of the first episode, you will get there >> to tell me about your childhood. it is not until seven episodes into it that we get a glance at tony soprano as a little kid. in that scene here is young tony and his uncle comes

looking for tony's data. tony's dad hops in a car and takes off with the uncle. tony, himself, the kid ends up missing the school bus and while he is not at school he ends up finding his dad and his uncle and see what they were up to. basically, sneaks up on them. what he sees is is that an uncle just beating the but jesus out of the sky on a street corner. this happens in episode seven. it is two more seasons. you're all the way into season three of the whole series when you get another flashback to tony as a little kid with his dad. this time, once again, young tony is not supposed to be there. he has snuck in and dad does not know he is there. his dad collect from a local butcher and the dad not only beats the living daylights out of the butcher, he takes amy cleaver to the guy. it is absolutely horrible. it is impossible to watch. young tony, young tony soprano,

the kid, he sees it. yes, the sopranos is a gangster tv show but of course there will be violence. it is also a really, really, really good gangster tv show. it is never that simple. in the sopranos we get the flashbacks to give us back story on our main character but also to understand what is wrong with tony soprano. of course, he idolized his father. we learned that he inherited his own position and the mafia from his father and built on that position to become a boss himself. as an adult, as a big tough mob boss, as our hero/antihero of the series, tony also makes all the time. he has panic attacks. he has done this, this most gangster the thing and put himself in therapy. what is the matter with my boss

tony soprano? we romanticize gangsters and the way that they live in american life. tony soprano romanticize as his father. basically as an obstruction as a gangster. a small part of the genius of what david chase did in the sopranos in that in the flashbacks, which he makes you wait for and wait for and wait for, ultimately, what you get. what young tony soprano sees as a kid with his dad doing is disgusting. it is gross. and it hurts tony soprano to see it. it kind of breaks him. what young tony sees as a kid, what happens and the flashbacks is not romantic it is not cool. it is just violence. it is unprincipled, unromantic. it is not art or sport or anything noble or anything with any elegance to it. it is just a mess it is gross.

as the series unspools you come to learn in a complex way that this is part of why tony soprano is the sad, sick pastor that he is and it is why he is doomed as a character. gangster theme tv and movie violence is something that we are very good at in this country. we know the tropes. making business people protection to the mob. they don't pay their protection money than the mob guys beat them up and maybe even kill them. the mob guys are running the card games and the other gambling rackets where the odds are against you while you are playing but the odds are you will get yourself killed if you get in debt to them. and extortion, stealing and prostitution and drug dealing and armed robbery. we have all seen it in 1 million shows. you can create warm and's and drama around it. we do as a country. when it is done right, like in the sopranos, the irreducibly brute boring violence never goes away and it messes people

up. in an unsexy, lasting, awful, unromantic way. it makes big tough, you know, my bosses straight up paint. which is not cool in so many ways. we are living through an area in our country's political life right now which is not politics. if you want to call it the most moran -- romantic thing but i think you could call it revolutionary. we also romanticize a revolution and revolutionaries as much as any country on earth. what we are contending with and our politics right now is a movement that is not doing normal politics and not competing in normal political terms. they are trying to end the american system of government

and bring about a revolution against the american system of government and annexed -- against the united states of america and in the story we are the americans. being revolutionary sounds very cool in the abstract, just like being gangster sounds cool in the abstract. in the specific, what they are offering is boring because it is just gross force. it is the end of politics. let us do it by force because physically, we mean it just the way we are saying it. we mean it just the weight you are hearing it. we are coming for you. >> mr. fbi tough guy, why does he wet himself on national tv? he is -- scared because he understands the end is near. brother, you and all the other people -- these are torturous conversations don't torture yourself. don't torture yourself.

get your passport and get out of the country because we are coming. you are not going to like it one bit. your crime and treason, coming for all of you. go ahead. go to the end of the earth. we will hunt you down and bring you back. drive the bourbon out of 1600 pennsylvania avenue. biden, you and your crime family are nothing but trash. for joe biden and dr. jill biden and hunter biden, they are a bunch of feral dogs. it is a family of feral dogs. we will have to fumigate the lies of joe biden and the treason of joe biden. after that, it is not the tapes. we are coming after lisa monaco, merrick garland and the senior members of doj that have prosecuted president trump, jack smith. you are the vanguard of this revolution. we will do what the romans did at cartridge. we will solve the

earth around us so they will never be another building there again. we will rebuild something else. there will be something that comes up and is rebuilt. we have got to go back to the beginning. we have got to go back to russian gait. we have to go back to who did that. we have got to go back to andrew weissmann and msnbc and the new york times and all of it. every fbi agent, all the cia, dhs, all of them. it is going to be a new day and maga will run things. they will know that maga has not only ascended, maga is in charge. it is simple, victory or death. >> this isn't, you know, red meat for the base. this is retribution as much as tony soprano's dad was providing protection to the local butcher. this is not a response to

anything. what this is is just menace and physical threat. it is not politics, just power and force. they are just promising violence. that is what they are offering in this election. this is how we should run the country now. we will hunt you down and you will know that we are in power. we are going to get rid of law enforcement and salt the earth. we are just going to hunt you down. this is not some random right- wing media guy for this is the guy who was the campaign manager for donald trump and the senior white house adviser to the former president who is now the nominee again. it is not like he is the only one who is saying this. this is what they are offering. and they love it. they are super excited to be getting done with politics and right to the force and violence part of it. >> the next six months will be

intense. we need to strap on our, let us see -- what we want to strap on? we will strap on our seatbelt. we are going to put on our helmet or your kari lake ball cap. we will put on the armor of god. and maybe strap on a glock on the side of us just in case. >> we will throw out the signal. we will go after the big news media and liberate america once and for all. >> do not think for a second he is not will unleash -- on all of his political enemies. this is where we are and now we have to finish it too. >> we have to finish it. once and for all. they keep saying things like that. finish it and vanquish them. this is not politics. in a contest you compete

against your fellow citizens with whom you have disagreements. the rival political party, whoever loses that fair race concedes, literally concedes and then they come back. they have the opportunity to come back in the next election cycle and compete against you again. in real politics, nothing is ever finished. you never take power once and for all. your enemies are not vanquished. they are not trying to win a political contest. they are trying to do away with political contests in the united states of america. it might be why the not putting much energy in the normal way of competing in this year's political contests. you may have seen this weekend. the former president went to detroit, which seems like a normal thing for a political candidate to do with a big city and is -- in a swing state. he has room to grow. he goes to this black church in detroit and his campaign does not take any steps to avoid the pews and completely filled with white people with white trim

supporters. and then on the date the message of his opposing campaign is he is trying to appeal to black voters. that is the point of doing this photo op. he goes straight from the venue, stuffed with white people, to a conference hosted by this guy, who has been in the news for the last few months for saying, quote, we made a huge mistake when we passed the civil rights act in the 1960s. saying that he thinks of black people are not qualified to be airline pilots and he worries if he is on a flight and sees that the pilot is black. he has been posting things like, quote, whiteness is great on social media. he has been hosting gas on the podcast to talk about how black people are biologically inferior and incapable of advanced intelligence. someone who said, literally, mlk, dr. martin luther king journey -- junior was awful. not a good person.

black voters look at me, aren't i appealing? going to church that is inexplicably full of white people right from there to go do an appearance with a guy who set mlk was awful and the civil rights act was a mistake guy. you are not trying very hard. that is in normal campaign terms. they are not trying hard in normal campaign terms. they are trying very hard to compete on normal political appeals. what they're trying to do instead is take power by menacing and chasing out of the country anyone who opposes their leader. destroy anyone who contradicts him. let alone anyone who dares to compete against him. if you are done with politics and want to be in charge forever by force, then no one can be allowed to contest the leader or to question the leader . informally, no one can be

allowed to offer any alternative source of authority to the leader. there cannot be journalists. they cannot know stuff and report it. there cannot be opposition politicians, are you kidding? there cannot be anyone who runs against him that would mean taking your life in your hands. there cannot be law enforcement that does anything independent of what the leader wants. the whole government has to work for the leader. there is no, you know, government providing information and services like we are used to. there is no state. there is a deep state which is terrible and evil and against the leader and it must be purged. replaced us with people he likes and who do what he wants. the government cannot have a civil service that has subject matter experts. because everybody has to work only for the leader. >> we should be recommending you to be prosecuted. we should be writing a criminal referral because you should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity you belong in prison,

dr. fauci. >> and the trump air in the republican party this is what is like to be the nation's most esteemed public health official. the nation's top subject matter expert on infectious disease. dr. anthony fauci was the head of the national institute of allergy and effect is disease for 38 years. he has a book that is out tomorrow called on call: a doctor journey in public service. he says that in the early days of the hiv/a.i.d.s. pandemic, the hate mail that he got was, quote, homophone likely motivated, criticizing me for wasting time trying to save mostly men who brought this all on themselves by their supposedly a horrid behavior. with a bola it was white supremacist types that i favored black africans over the health of our country. that is the kind of hate mail

he got in the a.i.d.s. era and the hate mail he got in the ebola area. in this area in response to our most recent disease threat and the context of america, now, the torrent of hate and threat is of a different order and a magnitude. >> it needs to be dealt with. the criminal gang leaders, the bid heads of central banks. the pfizer had, thanked me for, all of them that like to trump we know created the dis-info and already have the vaccine ready years before they release the virus. they need to go to prison for the rest of their lives. it is the right thing to do if they be executed. i am not a wimp and i think it should be public. and i will pull the lever. i don't want people to do work i would not do. >> dr. friendly ford news book he tells -- seven different

president starting with ronald reagan helping -- with the attacks after 9/11. 450 page book. it comes out -- every new crisis is a detective story and a science thriller and a political pot bowler all rolled into one. the last hundred pages or so are about the covid crisis. also about serving and trying to handle the covid crisis under the most recent republican president, under donald trump. even though that part of dr.'s career in public service is over , he retired in 2022 after serving as the chief medical adviser. even though he is not out of public service after all these decades, the trump movement and its members in congress and supported in the media are still going after dr. foutch he as aggressively as ever if not

more so. even two years after he left government and because he epitomizes one of the things they are trying to destroy. what of the things that they need to destroy in their revolutionary war against the american system of government. it is not that they disagree with him. it is not that they misunderstand. it is that he represents expertise. authority, earned by expertise. the way we use -- the way that we say that is that he is a person who knows what he is talking about and that is toxic for that little project. that cannot be allowed to stand. he is still in the bull's-eye for them even now. >> i would love to see the book thrown at him. i would love to see him thrown in jail. >> you say he lied to congress and should be arrested? is echoing a little far?

>> i don't think he should be arrested but i like the idea. >> they are still going after him even now. this is from the book from august the 2020 . it says i have been absent from work for a few days because i have benign polyp removed from my vocal cords but i would just going back into the swing of things and having music on my desk in my office and going through mail that i piled up. was about 10:30 a.m. and i picked up a letter. the envelope for a jacksonville, florida return address but it was typewritten in an unusual font that otherwise look like the fan mail that i got every day. most the time people asked me to sign a baseball card or an index card. sometimes, occasionally, they told me they hated me. i opened the envelope with a letter opener and took out a single sheet of paper. as i unfolded it, fine white powder shot up from the paper and drifted down onto my face, tie, shirt, hands, pants, desk and chair.

i instantly veered anthrax or worse. i immediately shouted -- to my assistant, kim, do not come into my office! i yelled don't move, stay where you are. don't come out because you will contaminate everything else. calling the instructs i put the letter and on the into a plastic bag for forensic. george called the hazmat team who came to my office in their spacesuits. they had me remove all of my clothes, which also went into a plastic bag and they sprayed me down with chemical phone. i thought this is insane there i was standing naked being sprayed down by guys in spacesuits. my feet hinge on call giving me a glimmer analysis of the powder. there were three possibilities. it was a hoax and merely a harmless powder, it was anthrax spores and i would require four weeks of the antibiotics but will probably survive or it was ricin and no matter what i did,

i would be dead in a few days. ricin, which is formed from the seeds of castor beans is lethal when inhaled or injected. christine, his wife, and our daughters were terrified that i might die. jenny was also furious, which is probably a reflection of her fear and concern for me. megan and allie called multiple times asking, dad, are you all right? they dreaded they might say i was starting to feel sick . my own emotions are complicated. i felt like an idiot for opening what was a suspicious letter. i was fatalistic about the outcome. my mother died at age 56. my father is 97. at age 79, myself, i lived along full and happy life but my legal papers were in order because they are always in order. as a physician i have held the hands of many people as they died. i do not fear death but i was not ready to be this early yet, not by a longshot. this should not be something that happens in the life of a public servant, of a public

health official. but here we are. 1.2 million americans have died from covid. dr. fauci's book explains the government response with the challenge of dealing with a novel coronavirus, something new. learning as we go. he also tells the story of trying to build a government response with a president who, literally, did not understand what was going on with some very fundamental ways. who told him, told dr. fauci that he did not understand why he would get a flu shot if he did not have the flu. as if he did not understand the difference between a treatment and a vaccine . a president to ask, why the flu vaccine could not just be used to prevent covid? as if he did not understand diseases and viruses are different from one another. a president who believed of fox news post, more -- when she

said there was a miracle cure for covid. a president who did not understand how clinical studies is proving that had any more validity than what had been heard on the grapevine from someone he saw on fox news, who had no subject matter expertise. it got worse from there. this is also from dr. fauci's book. on april 22nd i attended a task force meeting where we are briefed by william bryan acting under secretary for science and technology. brian explained two studies that showed how sunlight and humidity could kill the virus. and substance such as isopropyl alcohol and disinfectants could be used to clean up nonporous surfaces. the following day he briefed the president and the oval office on the studies. without deborah birx or me being present. he then joined the president on the podium in the briefing room. the result was the infamous press conference where donald trump appeared to endorse using bleach as a way to disinfect the lungs from covid.

the president told the white house press corps, quote, then i see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. one minute is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside are almost a cleaning ? you see, it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. it would be interesting to check that. dr. fauci says, i was not at the press briefing. as i watched it on tv, i thought, oh my gosh . poor deb, being on stage with the president during that musing. she must have been horrified and given her background it would have been difficult to contradict the commander-in- chief publicly. she looked as if she wanted to be anyplace other in the world but there. sitting in front of the television, i knew we would have people who heard that from the president and would then go ahead and try it. my phone immediately exploded with text and calls asking me

to comment. i instantly realized that i and other scientists had to counter this message to keep americans from ingesting bleach, which could literally kill them. dr. anthony fauci is in the bull's-eye of the trump movement to this day. as they seek to return to power. he is in the bull's-eye of the trump movement even after leaving the government and it is not because of covid and it is not because of the difficult decision of this most recent threat that he helped the country face now. he has faced down plenty of those in his 54 years at nih. when he is facing now is a political movement that cannot abide public health expertise at all it cannot abide expertise at all because that competes with the truths that are spouted from the head of the leader. it is a movement that cannot abide authority and expertise from anyone other than their leader. and the answer any such

competition for him with menace. it is not romantic and it may be revolutionary but there is nothing sexy or dramatic or bubbly about it. it is boring, it is violent and it is about using force. it is a war against the u.s. system of government. dr. anthony fauci is an accomplished and brave public servant. he should not have to be as brave as he is. he is and he joins us live here, next. , next [ revving ] oh now we're torquin'! the dodge hornet r/t. the totally torqued-out crossover. known for following your dreams. known for keeping with tradition. known for discovering new places. no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer. fda-approved for 17 types of cancer,

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joni suffering interview is dr. anthony fauci per director of the national institute of allergy and practice disease for eight years until his retirement from government

service 18 months ago. is a new book out titled on call: a dr.'s journey in public service. he does that for his first live interview ahead of the publication to barbara glad to have you here. >> thank you for having me. >> i feel like i have been counting on you to explain things. one of the things i am counting on you for now is bring a lot of slings and arrows that you do not deserve. i wanted to give you a chance. i set up this interview with some strong words about the way you have been targeted. i wanted to give you a chance to brush me back if you think that was inappropriate or wrong. >> i think you are right. that is the thing that i experience most recently at the congressional hearing where the purpose of the hearing, the state of purses of the hearing was to learn by our mistakes and be better prepared for the inevitability of the next pandemic it was complete

vitriol and -- there was nothing that resembled that. to me, that is the thing that scares me. i think when you go down that road, i personally think i stayed in the book that i think it will undermine our social order and undermine the fabric of our democracy. even though it is an issue with me. it is an issue for other people. that worries me more than the attacks on me. i have to say that my family and i we worry more about what will happen to the country than the threat on me and >> in terms of the kinds of criticism that you are getting. i know over your career you have a hot a lot of different criticism. full disclosure, i was a member of an a.i.d.s. activist movement that give you a hard time in the height of the a.i.d.s. epidemic. you talk about that in the book about being stung by the vitriol and the tone and tactics of

some the ways that we criticized you. also recognizing when that criticism was substantively warranted and when it should change your course. i thought that was a model of humility. itself was a model of how to be a responsible public servant. i wonder if you have reflected about the difference between that kind of vitriol, very aggressive criticism and what you have experienced in the covid area. >> it is an enormous difference. you cannot imagine anything more different. back in the mid to late 80s, what the mostly mostly gay activists were doing, mostly seven men were trying to get the attention they need to be part of the inclusion and exclusion criteria and the external amount of time, understandably, that the fda took to approve a drug without any basis at all for getting

drugs to people who needed a compassion and use for it. they wanted us to say, sit down with us and we will tell you how we can make this work. the scientific community, myself included at the time and the regulatory community said something which was understandable but completely unacceptable in retrospect. we know better for you than what you know for you. when they heard that, that is when they started to be iconoclastic, demonstrative, theatrical and disruptive the scientific committee pulled back from that even more. probably one of the best things i have ever done in my career was i just started listening. i took away the theatrics and took away be behavior and listen to what they were saying. what they were saying was making absolutely perfect sense. i describe it now to people. i use the john lewis, what he said. that is trouble but it is good trouble.

they were making good trouble for me. when i started listening to them, we were on the same track. fast forward 40 years and you have a situation where it is pure ad hominem. it was not let us talk about something how we can make the world a better place or make the country -- nothing at all. it is just hearing people down. when people show a sign of an anti-trans 24 in 1984 and '85 and anti-tran03 four in 2022, it is marble and watermelon difference. it is very different. in one case they're asking you to do something different and the government response to hiv and a.i.d.s. and the other one they want to lock you up and punish you as steve bannon said put your head on a pike in the fragmented information environment that we are in now. this is one of the things you land on the very end of the book. this worried that it is not like misinformation and disinformation are new but in

the environment we are in right now it can be so fast and it can swamp actually grounded information. i want to give you an opportunity to respond in the way that i know you but you can to the claims that have been made against you by the truck movement and by the kinds of members of congress who are shouting at you the other day in that hearing. they have accused you of creating the covid vaccine. they have accused you of covering up the real story that the virus was, essentially, delivery or accidentally created. can you respond to those claims ? >> they are preposterous. we do not know what the origin of this virus is. it somehow came out of the lab where chinese scientists went into the environment and got infected and played with it and came out. or it was unnatural spillover from an animal to a human in the markets. i keep a completely open mind.

the biological evidence, the epidemiological evidence by most qualified virologist strongly favor, though not definitively, strongly favor that it is a national occurrence -- natural occurrence. since it is not definitive, i keep an open mind. what is incorrect is that the nih funded a grant in china, and indirect grant from a firm in new york that did a civil war to do some surveillance studies on what is out there, which is a perfectly appropriate thing to do. i would probably be held as being incompetent if i did not do that. as it turns out, the viruses that were being studied under the nih grants are evolutionary so distant from sars-cov-2 mac that there is no chance in the world that somebody could make

that virus turned into sars-cov- 2. this attack that you funded a project that turns into covid is completely preposterous. if anyone knows anything about virology, they will say it is so distant that the precursor virus could not possibly turn in even if you tried. >> looking at it mama clearly this virus understudy in terms of nadh having involvement is so dissimilar to the virus that cause the pandemic there is no chance >> even if you try to do it. that still does not rule out the possibility that somewhere in china out of the lab came the virus. that is why i say over and over again, even though evidence strongly weighs towards it being a natural occurrence, i keep an open mind that we still don't know what the origin is pretty >> i have so much more to ask you. can you stay? we will be right back. back.

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we are back with dr. anthony fauci, whose book comes out tomorrow. this happened three days before the 2020 presidential election. dr. "the rachel maddow show" says, quote, by this time the buyers had infected 9 million americans and killed 230,000. new daily cases were hitting record highs.

out on the campaign trail donald trump insisted, quote, we are turning the corner, we are turning the corner. we are running the curb and we will vanquish the virus. the president said to me during the phone call that day, quote, everyone wants me to fire you but i am not going to fire you. you have two illustrious a career. the country cannot stay locked down. you have got to give them hope. i like you but so many people, not only in the white house but throughout the country you because of what you are doing. and then the president continues, quote, i am going to win this election by a landslide, just wait and see. i always did things my way and i always win no matter what all these other people think and that biden, he is so stupid. i'm going to kick his -- in this election. dr. fauci, getting that call where he did not win . i know that at this point you have quite a lot of interaction with president trump but it does seem like that interaction

unnerves you a bit. >> it did. it is almost as if he was talking passed me like he was just demoting. it was not like he was -- it was a little incongruous pretty ended by saying, take care, see you soon and something like that. i was not quite sure. it was unnerving. even though you are convinced you are doing the right thing, which i have been trying to say all along, level with the american public. you will wind up being better off to do that, it is not a pleasant thing to have the president of the united states when you have such a great deal of respect for the presidency of the united states for the president to get on the phone and scream at you the way that he did. that was tough. >> you describe something i had understood in weight but i never understood as a pattern before, which was the continued references to the flu. it did seem that president trump

did not understand some of the basics about the flu and that it is a different virus and covid. he said to you but he did not see why he would have to get a flu shot if he did not have the flu. he did not understand it was preventative and not treatment. >> that is true. he also said, why can we not does use the flu vaccine to prevent covid? do you think he does not know what a vaccine is a? >> i think after all of the things we have told him -- the thing that underlies this, rachel, is that he wanted it to be so much to be like the flu because historically the flu peaks and it goes away and then in march and april it is gone and you can go on. >> it is a season. >> it was not doing that and going away. he kept on saying, it will disappear like magic. that is when i had to say, no, i am sorry. that is not going to happen. i had to do that publicly. when that did not work, he started invoking magical cures.

and then when it became clear that was not working he brought in scott who told him everything he wanted to hear. it was wanting so much for it to go away and figuring out if it was not going to go away naturally, i will act like it will go away. that was the problem. >> was it dangerous to promote hydroxy gorgon with the jurors that do not treat covid? >>, it is. i want to get into a number of people's but he missed an opportunity. who people who knew nothing about this who were saying it could work and we know not only does it not but it hurts people . he could've used the bully pulpit of the presidency to say, listen to the scientist but he did not do that. >> in terms of the vaccine development that happened in

the country that you described as being almost miraculous in terms of the pace going from 11 months with identification of pathogens to a safe and effective and deployable virus. that is something that the united states of america contributed to the world response and has lots be proud of. i don't know if it's okay to ask this but if there had been a problem in developing a vaccine for covid. if we had not been able to do that, do you have in mind a number about how many people would have died at? >> globally it would be many more millions. in the united states it could be another million. it was clear when you looked at the curse of hospitalizations and deaths in people who were vaccinated versus people who are unvaccinated, the unvaccinated people -- if we have a vaccine in the usual time that it takes to get

a vaccine -- it is already just horrible and it would have been much worse. >> i have one other matter when asked about. i know not was a keeper but i want to . we will be right back with dr. anthony fauci right after this . for th treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer. sup? -who are you? talk to a healthcare provider i'm your inner child. get in. ♪ ♪ [ engine revving ] listen. horsepower keeps you going, but torque gets you going. ♪ ♪ [ engine revving ] oh now we're torquin'!

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we are back with dr. anthony fauci. his new when more comes out tomorrow called, on call: a doctor's journey in public service. it is a really good read and an impressive history of someone who has been there for all of it for the past decades. seven presidents. dr. fauci, when i was in the a.i.d.s. movement, one of the things that affected my life was that people who were hiv-positive becoming hiv denial is and people decided it did not cause a.i.d.s. and if they were sick it was the anti-agb drugs. that was a things making them sick and they should take a natural course. i lost a lot of -- i had friends die because of that. i never knew what to do about it. now i feel like we have a national sickness that feels like it has echoes of that uncle that. do you see parallels? >> absolutely. the a.i.d.s. denial is have people in the united states die because of

that but in south africa the president of south africa use the a.i.d.s. denial list as an excuse not to have drugs for the people in south africa. it was estimated over 300,000 south africans died because they were withheld drugs because of a.i.d.s. denialism. i think if you pass for now about denying the science of the vaccine and denying that vaccines are safe and effective when you have billions of people who have been vaccinated and the data showing a lifesaving element of the vaccine, that is tantamount to denialism. >> yeah. >> when people don't get vaccinated because of whatever ideological reason they have for not getting vaccinated, those are lies losses that are avoidable deaths. there has been some modeling studies to show the they have been a substantial number of

people that would have been alive had they gotten vaccinated and did not get vaccinated because ideologically they do not think you should get vaccinated. they believe people who said vaccines don't work and vaccines are dangerous. and many of those people are dead now. that is unfortunate. no matter what their political slant is, that pains me to see people having died because a decision based on a political reason. >> dr. fauci, with your work. even on a.i.d.s. alone , your work has been attributed for saving 25 million lives. that is where you start counting you get to covid and anything else. thank you for your service. >> thank you for having me >> dr. anthony fauci former director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases spread his new memoir is called, on call: a doctor's journey in public service. it comes out tomorrow. we will be right back. these days everyone is staring at screens, and watching their spending.

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one less thing before we go, i have this new podcast called rachel maddow presents ultra. it is season two. episode two of that is out today . it starts with a really cheery little episode, i guess. a really cheery little thumbnail sketch of a doomsday weapon designed to kill everyone on earth. you know, how is that for a tease? episode two of alter is out today wherever you get your podcast. i hope you take a listen. thank you.