they will now arm ukrainians directly so in some ways, you know, this act fired on putin. >> let me ask you quickly because we only have a little bit of time but with regard to what the intelligence community will be watching for on thursday, is there something the intel community will watch for that maybe political hundred t might pick up on? >> ultimately, when president trump starts talking about the weaponized justice department and the politicized intelligence community, it damages the men and women. the avoidance of that will be good. the real question is you know, president biden is going to put forth the notion of stability in the world, you know, alliances being rebuilt but former president trump, if he talks about you know, and isolationist america, you know, transactional relationships, that is not welcomed by our

foreign partners. >> i'll be looking to have you back for a much longer conversation, my friend. that will do it for me, we will be back next saturday and sunday 1:00 eastern. the weekend is next. >> welcome to primetime weekend. let's get right to the week's top stories. >> he said something to the effect of, i don't want people to know we lost mark, this is embarrassing, we need to figure it out. i don't want people to know that we lost. >> trump knew all along, right, that he lost even though he has raged for four years that the

2020 presidential election was somehow stolen from him, in private, even donald trump has admitted the truth, even donald trump knows the truth. it's a truth that he is so embarrassed about that president joe biden, he refers to him, as this guy, that he beat him in the 2020 presidential election. today, in a new tape, never heard before, we are hearing that private admission in his own words. on tape. a remarkable slip of the mask, trump's fagade, made during one of his half-dozen interviews with a writer. author of a brand-new book, chronicling trump's time as host of the apprentice. we spoke with him on the program yesterday and he told us about this moment. here is that exchange that came up when trump was talking about former fox news commentator, geraldo rivera, listen. >> what was geraldo like? >> he was good, he did a good

job. he was smart, cunning, he did a good job. he is, after i lost the election, i won the election but when they said we lost, he called me up 3 to 4 times, i didn't take his call because i was so busy fighting it, you know, with what went on. he called me in 3 to 4 times, and finally i had a little time and i called him back and he went on fox and started talking about, the president called me, i didn't call him, i returned his phone call and he started talking very personally about how i was feeling, how i was doing and i said, that's really a betrayal. i didn't talk about how i was

feeling, i just, it was a phone call that lasted very quickly just hey, how are you doing, how's it going. it's not my deal, he's not my psychiatrist. but he made it sound like it was such a big deal. it was a nothing, all i did was return his call but he said the president called me like i'm reaching out to him. and i haven't spoken to him since. >> so despite trump's efforts to put his mask back on, quickly cover it up, you heard the truth pour out of him he called me after i lost, geraldo, i mean, i won, but he lost. he lost, he knows it, and speaking conversationally, he admitted it, on tape meanwhile publicly and even there in the call, the disgraced ex- president continues to perpetuate and spread the lie, the lie that has undermined trust and faith in our elections, the american democracy, the lie that is owned supporters have but into, hook line and figure, some of them at the cost of their liberty and their freedom, the lie that fueled the supporters into committing a deadly coup

against the government at the u.s. capitol on january 6th. the lie for which dozens of drums allies have been indicted across several states now. more than half of all republican voters believe the lie, the lie that trump couldn't even keep up in a taped interview but now we know, the cult leader doesn't even believe the lie. the mask slipping is where we start the hour with co-editor in chief of friday. he is back, apprentice in wonderland, how donald trump and mark burnett took america through the looking glass. i loved everything about our conversation yesterday, but as a show, we have sought to really understand how the lie about trump's defeat in 2020 has undermined voting rights, almost 400 voter suppression bills have been passed in 48 it -- states, the january 6th insurrection happens, mike pence does not endorse trump,

and it is such a precious piece of reporting i made many other precious pieces of reporting that even trump let the mask slip and said geraldo called me after i lost. tell me what that moment was like for you, sitting across from it. >> we were sitting at the same table, this was august 2021. he was very comfortable because we were watching clips of the apprentice and i think part of the reason why the mask slipped off was because he was remembering his life as an entertainer, he was very amused and excited to see himself in the boardroom and this is all performance art for trump, my book tries to get into the psyche of who trump is, what he's doing as a politician, quote, politician i make the argument in the book that he is really not a politician and the contestants ice talked to said

that donald trump is an actor and he played a role on this show and as a candidate, he also played a role and as president he played a role in this lie that he perpetuates as part of the role, he's acting the part of this aggrieved politician who claims that the election was stolen from him because he knows that is something that his base loves, he loves to distort reality and we, in the character like allison -- alice in wonderland are going down the looking glass. >> ramin do you follow the alicia menendez hearings at all? i ask because this is part of a pattern and what is so unique is everything else was a witness, kathy hutchinson testifies to it, alyssa farah testified to walking into the oval office to check on trump and that's when he mutters, i can't believe i lost to this guy but you have it on tape and i'm going to read, to our audience, trump's response to

this part of the book in this revelation that we were going to play the tape, this is his campaign spokesman. >> after recognizing the importance of the apprentice, and trump's remarkable role in forever changing the landscape of entertainment, this writer has chosen to allow trump derangement syndrome to rot his brain like so many other losers whose entire existence revolves around trump. what is noticeable is what is not in there, the dog that doesn't bark. no denial that trump knows that he lost. >> it's notable and it's also part of the performance art. that's a crazy statement that you would expect from a reality star who engages in feuds, creates false narratives, it was also interesting that the story of why he and geraldo had a falling out. it traces back to the fact that after they spoke geraldo went

on it was called twitter at the time and said the president will accept the results of the election and trump according to geraldo said a version of that to him on the phone shortly after the election and changed his mind and decided that this election, he was going to claim it was stolen from him and would perpetuate that lie and so that is the reason why he stopped talking to geraldo but it goes back to the fact that he is playing a part, he is pretending, he's created this false narrative and millions of people believe him. >> i think you have a frame that is instructive for anyone who is trying to cover trump in this moment. the other mask you take off is the idea that he ever saw himself as a leader of anything. i want to play another piece of tape and this is him talking about dennis rodman's acumen to deal with north korean leader kim jong un. let me play this. >> dennis was a pretty cool cat in many ways, i'll tell you. and look, he dated madonna when she was the number 1 person.

you've got to have something going, right? >> he also showed up to one of the summits you had with kim jong un because he knew him very well. >> so kim jong un really liked him, legit. and i said i can get these guys out of harvard government and central casting, they couldn't do anything with kim jong un, a guy like dennis could. i didn't use dennis for it but i thought about a couple of times before i got to know kim jong un. but dennis would have done a better job than your traditional people. your traditional ivy league people that always do that stuff and they have no personality. but kim jong un liked him, you know, he coached their basketball team and he did, i asked him about that and he said, i like dennis. >> you asked kim jong un? >> yeah, i asked him. he liked him. and by the way, dennis liked

him, too. >> i mean, i don't even know if the looking glass does it, i mean this is someone who murders his own people, i mean, this is one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world, represents a growing threat to this country with a new alliance with putin and trump is so cavalier about it, he thinks dennis is better than anyone who has studied north korea's capabilities or understand the geopolitical impact of an alliance with putin. say more about this part of your interview? >> this was a strange moment in interview, to me, and all traces back to donald trump saying that because dennis rodman in the 90s dated madonna, he is quote, a cool cat. and that is the headspace that he's in, right, it's the, wanting to be in the proximity of fame, seeing fame as a currency, seeing celebrity as the ultimate currency and

having no qualifications in terms of leadership. when he says dennis rodman is better than these guys from harvard, which he calls, central casting and somehow dennis rodman who was a contestant twice on the celebrity apprentice, you know, dell with being an alcoholic on the show, was known for these very messy antics on the show, somehow had a better handle on global diplomacy and dealing with kim jong un, then people in our government who went to harvard and who studied what we need to do, in terms of our government and in terms of making sure that we are handling this in the correct way. it was very jarring, it was very frightening. and this is what the american public needs to know. this is the way in which trump handles diplomacy and this is the way in which he sees his role as president and it's a continuation of his role as the host of the apprentice.

he is a reality show character that is conducting himself in the white house like a celebrity who is pretending to be someone else. >> i mean, i've got a question for you, i mean, you, you had extraordinary access to trump, and if i'm wrong, i hope someone will call me and tell you but are you the only person, you're the only person that i know of who had access to six taped interviews with trump after he lost the 2020 election and it sounds like he was forthcoming, it sounds like he let you leave the conversations, if i have any of that wrong, please interject. >> we spent a lot of time together. >> what did you make of how easy it was to get to him by simply telling him, you know, you are writing about this thing that he is more proud of than anything he did as president? >> that was also strange and when we started these conversations, it was in may 2021 and at the time, certainly, i don't know if most people thought that he would decide to run for president again after the insurrection and he was very deflated but it

was very easy to access him. i went to trump tower, there was no one around, i went up the elevator, he was sitting alone in his office, he didn't seem to have a lot of people around him. he seemed very lonely, very sad, and he wanted to devote a significant amount of time to talking to me and in a lot of the tapes, because i went back and listened, he talks about how excited he is to be talking about the apprentice, how happy he is and the reason i got so much access was because this is what he once to talk about. he's not interested in being commander-in-chief. he's interested in reality tv. we are less than a week away from the first presidential debate. biden sharing the stage with the twice impeached four times indicted now criminally convicted disgraced ex- president. what vice president harris is saying today about the stark contrast that the biden campaign hopes to make to everyone everyone aving homes without power, watching.

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bumbling, elder statesman, not all there, somehow, incapable of the most asic human interactions. he can't be both and in reality, he's neither but for the republican party, the problem with trying to have it both ways is occasionally those two contradictory images of biden run up against each other. after weeks of sharing deceptively edited videos and a concerted effort to make sure as many people as possible think president joe biden is bumbling, people in trump's corner are now playing with the expectations game, they are now raising the are. the biden campaign is working with its supporters, vice president harris spoke to our colleague

about what to expect in the debate. >> joe biden in this debate, it'll make clear the contrast, you know, many issues in our country and our world, that are complex and nuanced, november of 2024 is binary and when you look at the difference, i would ask people to really imagine what the world will be like on january 20th in 2025. on the one hand, you have joe biden, who has spent his life and career, fighting for the well-being of other people including healthcare and on the other hand, you have the former president, who spent full time when he was president, trying to get rid of the affordable care act which if he is successful, that would mean

over 100 million people will be stripped of healthcare coverage. on the one hand, joe biden, who, under his leadership, bipartisan support for the first meaningful gun safety legislation in 30 years, and on the other hand, the former president, who, when speaking of survivors of horrendous gun violence says, get over it and will probably talk about how he did nothing on the issue. and i could go on and on. i think the debate is going to make clear the contrast between our president, the current president who works on behalf of the american people, fights for the american people and the former president who pretty much spends full-time fighting for himself. >> joining our coverage, chief political columnist, john holliman is here. and charlie is still with us. let me play some of your conversation. >> joe biden is going to stand

on the stage and he will show what he showed in 2020, that he is in this for all the right reasons and he's focus on delivering for the american people and him standing next to donald trump is the best way to show that. do i think rules are going to protect the american people from whatever donald trump might say? of course not, but i do think you know, having this really be serious is what the american people want, and i think joe biden every day is doing a good job of being president. this is a great opportunity, earlier in the cycle than ever before, for the two of them to stand together and for him to talk about what he's done and what he's fighting for. and you know, not having an audience, not having distractions, not having to worry about covid, i think all of those things are better for the american people and joe biden is going to have a great debate. >> your thoughts. >> i would say, you know, the biden campaign, jen o'malley

dillon, over the course of an hour, we talked about a lot of stuff. i confronted her with a lot of concerns and fears and worries that a lot of democrats have right now because of the stakes of the election, because of some of the things they see. she was confident, she had good answers to a lot of the questions. i think on this debate question, the thing that i asked her that you and i discussed on the air the other day which is, is it your expectation that the moderator will fact check in real-time or is that joe biden's job? we know trump is going to spew lies, and she conceded that that was a problem, that the torrent of lies coming out of trump's mouth, was obviously a

problem for the country and a problem for the candidate but also dealing with it is a challenge i think one of the things they will be grappling with at camp david, is going to be this issue, how much fact checking does joe biden try and do, how much does he leave to the moderators in real-time or to the media afterwards because he obviously has a positive message to get out and a lot of contrast messaging that he wants to do, it could be hindered if he spends too much time following i'm sure his instinct, which is to call out every lie that donald trump at hers because that could be 94% of the things that come out of trump's mouth. >> paul, your thoughts? >> you know, i think the

democrats always make it too complicated. i think would biden have to do is stand up and say, you might not like me but this guy is a whole lot worse. he needs to be uncle joe, he's going to do some storytelling but also, just remind people that there is a deep ethical character integrity contrast here. i don't think it's his job to fact check donald trump. it's his job to remain cool and to show leadership and stature, and show reasonable, he's talking to democrats and he's saying, stay with me, you may not like everything i did, please come out and vote at least talking to independent voters and he has to be honest and say hey, i may not be your cup of tea, you may not love democrats or love me but i'm better than this guy who is a disaster and a threat to our national security. he really has to stay above this and not try and sell every single policy talking point because we are also talking to low information voters, he's got to go to their gut and he can do that by showing that he's a good man and donald trump is a piece of garbage. >> charlie sykes? >> well, this is going to be in

immensely important debate, which is unfortunate because i think it's going to be a shitshow. >> if anybody thinks there will be an intelligent conversation, it's night. trump will be up there with a fire hose of insults, interactions and bs, and even though the microphone will be muted, he will be trying to throw biden off, paul is right, i think people will be looking at this in terms of, okay, can we trust joe biden and i think, so, you know, unfortunately, i don't feel i'm going out on a limb when i say this is going to be the worst and the dumbest presidential debate in american history. it will either be enlightening or ennobling because trump will not be discussing student loan debt and he's not going to be

talking about you know, healthcare policy. he doesn't know anything about the policies and he doesn't care. he will simply be flinging things, and i understand the political necessity for joe biden, you know, to exceed expectations and i understand why he is doing it and how he needs to expose trump but part of me also thinks, standing up there with trump as a convicted felon and treating him as if he is a normal presidential contender, it does normalize this prospect but it is what it is, and so, you know, and unfortunately, we are all going to be analyzing it, not in terms of debating points, nobody's going to confuse this with the lincoln douglas debates. we are all going to be evaluating the show, who turned in the best performance in the show. we need to keep focus on the stakes and on the issues and

yet, we have now been sucked into a reality show and donald trump knows how to behave during a reality show or how to misbehave. there will be a moment in which donald trump's behavior is so erratic which he loses his cool and joe biden can turn and say whatever you think of me, do you really want to give this guy control of the nuclear button again. i may be old but he is old, too, and he's crazy and you can see it with your own eyes. >> i know you've got an issue with charlie sykes, go ahead. >> i'm still stunned on a panel that includes me and you, nicolle, two of the most profane people i know, and charlie sykes, nice charlie sykes, from wisconsin, that it was charlie sykes who would use that profanity on air. i'm stunned by that, number 2,

charlie, the prediction of this being the dumbest and most idiotic, all of those adjectives, i think you have forgotten the republican debate in 2016 that revolved around trump and marco rubio, talking about the size of their respective genitalia. the third thing that charlie said, and i have a lot of respect and a lot of time for the argument that by doing this debate that joe biden is normalizing trump and there was a case to say that we will not stand on stage with trump. i think the case morally and ethically, you could make that argument. i do think politically, that if biden decided not to debate

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spits out such that in -- venom for the women of the doj or the fbi, in our view, consider what the ex-president told the crowd in wisconsin on tuesday. >> the outrageous charges in new york were a corrupt creation of joe biden and his group and they really weaponized, what they did is they weaponized the department of justice, they weaponized all the white house. >> no they didn't. trump committed a crime and the people who helped him do so, some of them went to jail, some of them received immunity, they testified in a jury of his peers convicted him.

but for you or i, we might just dismiss this as a campaign speech, maga dis-info, riling up the base as just that, from supporters hear those words and accept them as facts. they are open to acting violently. it's how trump and his allies are priming trump supporters for what will be nothing less than a hostile takeover of the department of justice, should trump prevail in november, turning around the very instruments used to keep trump in check into political weapons and don't take our word for it, they are saying it out loud. fellow convict steve bannon has been open about the plan to prosecute high-ranking doj officials, people like attorney general garland out of what he describes as, quote, retribution. when it comes to unfounded attacks against the people serving at the top of the department of justice, steve

bannon's warmongering is more like chapter 10 in a years long saga and on this front one could argue that chapter 1 started during the obama presidency. if you've never heard or forgot what fast and furious is outside of the context of a major motion picture franchise then you successfully avoided or forgot about that. in american history, to jog your memory, operation fast and furious wasn't ill-fated gun tracing program related to dangerous mexican cartels, the operation went wrong when u.s. border patrol agents were killed, two guns from the operation were found at the scene. the attorney general at the time, provided lawmakers with thousands of pages of documents only to become the first ever sitting cabinet official in our country's history, to ever be held in contempt of congress. the ig investigation found zero

evidence that ag holder or any of the top leaders knew of or sought to cover up the depth of the scandal. but the damage had been done. the train had left the station, as they say. a concerted breakdown of trust between conservatives, right- wing media and our institutions, especially the department of justice, that was set in motion, the end result, all these years later, convicted felon, presumptive republican party nominee, running openly on going to war with the department of justice on day one if he prevails in november. through this longer view of modern political history that we examine the escalating attacks on the rule of law with our next guest. joining our conversation is the former attorney general, eric holder. >> i didn't want to review fast and furious but that's probably

a good place to start this conversation. >> i've never said this on tv but i first read in when i had written on a novel and chris wallace was a friend of mine and he wanted me to come on a panel and he said we are talking about fast and furious i said what's that and i remember googling and reading it and it's as good example as any, of the injection of politics, pulling the levers of congressional allies to do something that had never been done before and then softening the terrain with conservative media and activists and i'm wondering what you make of what trump is promising to do in a second term to the department that you want to lead. >> to the department that i love dearly, spent nearly 20 careers -- years of my career, coming straight out of law

school. and there's a tradition, regardless of who is in charge politically, the department uses its power in an apolitical way and i'm very concerned about what the former president said he's going to do, steve bannon, what he's going to do and i take them at their word. and i think they learned from the first term, they will point a compliant attorney general but beyond that they understand that they will have a compliant deputy attorney general, united states attorneys and they will give these attorneys hiring power so they can appoint a compliant assistant u.s. attorneys and they will do the things that they have said that they will do. open investigations against political opponents, use the law in ways that are inconsistent with the neutral way in which the justice department is supposed to operate. this is something that should be a prime campaign issue. we are talking about the rule

of law in this country which serves as the basis, the foundation for all that we hold near and dear in america. >> it is the area where trump's current advisors have spent the most time and energy in the architecture of this, and from my time in government, other than the military, people like yourself who have served in the department of justice have zero appetite for politics. and i agree with you, this should be a first and second and third issue for the voters but how do you bridge the gap between a department where the very essence of pushing back against trump-ism, is to not be political but the most effective way to reject what trump wants to do to the department is a political solution of not voting for him. how do you bridge that gap? >> yeah, i don't think there necessarily is a gap. to say that you are for a

neutral justice department, that you are for democracy, that you are for the rule of law. those to me, seemed to be, you know, apolitical things, that can be injected into the political sphere, to say, we have one candidate who will stand for those nonpolitical, apolitical, pro-democracy measures and we have on the other side, a candidate who is bound and determined to subvert the system to his will. subvert the system so him and his supporters are not subject to the rules in the way that other american citizens are. i think that you know, people who oppose the former president, they've got to understand that the battle on which we are now operating, the terrain in which we are operating, the normal rules simply don't apply, and it means that we are going to have

to be more upfront, we have to be more forceful. it doesn't mean that we have to you know, duplicate that which they say they will do or use the tactics they will use but i think being just as i said, more forceful, more open about what the dangers are. you know, fear is a big motivator and in 2008, barack obama used hope and change to galvanize huge numbers of people and i think fear, used appropriately, is something that can be employed here because the fear is, of losing our democracy. the fear is losing our freedoms, the fear is losing the ability, women's ability, to make reproductive decisions. he is certainly using fair, illegitimate fears, to try and galvanize his supporters. >> i couldn't agree with you more. i think that is the frame around which the campaign must be waged, right? and liz cheney articulates this, we can go back to having policy fights after this.

i wonder where you would sort of put all of the revelations, i mean, the thing that is different this time around, we were so dependent on investigative journalist, to break stories about trump's trespasses, it's all on a website. it's all spilling out of his mouth, somewhat incoherently, how do you break through to people who aren't paying attention, or look at it as well, both sides do it. how do you jolt people into understanding the threat that he poses to our democracy? >> well, i think we have to use tangible examples. it means if it doesn't break through the first time you say it or the second time or the third time, you say it a fourth time, and make people familiar with what the charges are in the pending cases, make people familiar with what the results were of the cases that were ultimately tried in new york

city. when it comes to reproductive rights, as you've done on the show, i think very compellingly, women have come on and tell their stories, have people come on and talk about how it's more difficult to vote in certain parts of the country. again, having real people talk about the things that they have done and will do, that'll have an impact on their lives, contextualize this in a way that makes it real for the american voter. am eric an voter boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady. all words you want from your bank. for nearly 160 years, pnc bank has been brilliantly boring so you can be happily fulfilled... which is pretty un-boring if you think about it.

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demonstrated that there platforms are safe for kids but there's growing evidence of harm. that's concerning to me as a surgeon general but also as a parent. a warning label would help parents understand the risks. >> an urgent warning there and a call for congressional action from the u.s. surgeon general for a warning label on social media platforms about how they contribute to the mental health emergency among young adults in this country. in an op-ed, he writes evidence from tobacco studies that show warning labels can increase awareness and change behavior. there is no seatbelt for parents to click, no helmet to snap in place, no assurance that trusted experts have investigated to make sure that these platforms are safe, there just parents and kids trying to figure it out on their own, pitted against some of the most well resourced companies in the

world. joining us now is dr. michael anderson. it's nice to see you. i was so happy to see this, every parent i know, they struggle with is, when kids start moving around, they have devices but it is a constant struggle to keep them off it and to monitor what they are watching on it. >> i give him such credit for this op-ed and just for the notion of a warning label and you're right, he compares it to, we have thousands of people dying from not having their seatbelt on and thousands of people have died. i know it's a more nuanced discussion because we have to have freedom of speech but just talk to parents, talk to kids in this op-ed, dr. murthy talks about this, they are on

an average of five hours a day and this is adding to the crisis that his pediatric mental health. i was honored to be a part of your program several months ago. it is still a crisis, and talking about social media or helping parents with social media isn't the only answer but i think dr. murthy is raising important issues that we have to talk about . >> the point about sunscreen and seatbelts and other things with warnings is so interesting because the platforms are designed and literally engineered to be addictive and you go back and look at tobacco, it wasn't just that they found tobacco caused cancer, a lot of the legal success hinged on the addition of the addictive additives and that's the parallel to social media, it's being engineered for stickiness, how do you at

least lay onto the social media platforms as much liability as tobacco have for the addictive piece? >> i think dr. murthy's warning label will gain traction. i also know there's legislation working its way through congress now. the kids online safety act, it is the algorithms, it is the incessant perpetual, scrolling, it is getting kids addictive, and the long-term mental health effects are really serious, so it's going to be a whole of society, it's parents asking questions, helping to take control, it's pediatricians, my favorite group of professionals that go with this but boy, we also have to look to lawmakers just like ai and like big challenges facing our nation to help us figure out what are the rules and regulations because he ends by talking about how we protect our kids, that's really the moral indicator of how good

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