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biden and donald trump scurrying off in their first face-to-face meeting since 2020. we will take a closer look at how it could reshape the race for 2024 and how it --. we are going to walk through the historic short -- showdown. donald trump says he has chosen his vice presidential running mate. that person could be at the debate. i will talk about the possible contenders with my sound off panel. and, the fight ain't over. two years after the supreme court repealed the right to choose an abortion, -- minnesota senator tina smith is here to talk about her effort to repeal the -- act. i am jonathan capehart, this is the sunday show.

buckle up, this week could be a wild ride and a critical turning point in the race for the white house on thursday in atlanta, president biden and donald trump will face-off on the big stage for the first time since october 2020. that's actually the last time they have been in the same room. it will also be the first ever debate between a sitting president and a twice impeached former president who has been convicted of felony crimes. trump is also awaiting trial on three other enteral indictment. the pre-debate drama is building. last night at a rally in philadelphia, the disgraced former president repeated the ridiculous and false accusation that biden plans on using performance-enhancing drugs before the debate. >> a little before debate time

he gets a shot in the --. they want to strengthen him up. so, he comes out, he will come out, okay, i say he will come out all jacked up, right? >> [ laughter ] for real? with nonsense like this, perhaps it is a good thing there are new debate rules. the 90 minute matchup will take place in a tv studio with no audience and each candidate will have his microphone muted until it is his turn to speak, but who are we kidding? you know, i know, we all know that a muted microphone wound keep trump quiet. the biden campaign already seems to be preparing for that. >> who knows what donald trump is going to do. i am going to bet he will talk over the microphone because he is a bully. the best way to fight a bully is to stand up to him.

joe biden has done that before and he will do it again. >> trump said he has, no strategy, except to make america great. as for president biden, he is immersed in debate prep with advisors including his personal attorney who will once again play trump in mock debates. in an interview with me, he describes preparations as an attempt to really give the opponent a feel for what they would likely face. we know what to expect from trump, utter chaos, like the kind that prompted this response from biden at a 2020 debate. >> vote now, make sure you in fact let people know. i am not going to answer the question. the question is -- will you shut up, man? >> his annoying tactics are

nothing new. back in 2016 during his second presidential debate, trumped -- trump stopped her -- stalked her as she addressed voters. his childlike behavior continued in their third debate during a heated discussion about russian president vladimir.. >> from everything i see, has no respect for this person. >> that is because he would rather have a puppet as president of the united states. >> you are the puppet! >> with that kind of petulant unhinged behavior coming at you, how do you even begin to prepare? my next guest is the perfect person to answer this question. joining me now, former assistant secretary of state. he also played donald trump in hillary clinton's 2016 mock debate sessions.

welcome back to the sunday show. two things we need to talk about. first thing, this accusation that president biden is going to use performance-enhancing drugs. he made the same accusation against hillary clinton in 2016. calling for her. >> he did after state of the union. the reason he is doing it is because he, very stupidly, along with his campaign, the republican party at large, has gone with this talking point that joe biden cannot stand up straight. they are realizing that is actually not a good thing to keep saying because that is not what is going to happen. now, with a few days left he is trying to do this 180 two explain why he is going to be perky and really good. same exact thing. they didn't think he would make it for 75 minutes. not only did he make it, he knocked it out of the park. they sit there and think, oh,

no. >> as we go into thursday, the president is at camp david, he is preparing. how has trump changed since you prepared hillary clinton for a debate? >> in 2016, i would start with the fact that his campaigns have changed in the sense of what his message is. ultimately a debate, while in front of the largest audience you will be speaking to, it really should be consistent with what you are saying day today. in 2016, fundamentally, he was talking about immigration, obamacare, jobs going south. obviously he was attacking hillary left and right. but there is consistency between his debate performance and his campaign message. fast forward to 2020, he had no message. he was just an angry, angry man. he was upset about russia, upset about covid, the shut up

moment was well deserved because he just was a malfunctioning appliance that was spewing all these things. the question is, some people say, which donald trump shows up? there is only one. he does not have a strategy, he has a list. a list of things that are always on his mind and always packed up they have not seen each other for 1300 days and they really don't like each other. think about how that works with someone you don't like. >> they are dead to me. >> there are three parts, what he complained about in 2016, what he complained about in 2020, there are what he complains about now, trials being gagged and i'm sure he will complain about being muted, but then there is a third bucket of policy. not that he has suddenly immersed himself from the minutia, but i believe he thinks one way to go at the president is to throw numbers and data.

probably lies. and just throw data at the wall hoping that it overwhelms the president. that is what i would guess. the thing with the list, he doesn't have it in order so you don't know what comes out when. >> in an interview you did with politico in the lead up to, you know -- >> something. >> yes, it talks about the lengths you went to prepare to beat donald trump. you wore three inch heels, big suits, everything. another thing you did after watching hours upon hours of tape is that you noticed he never makes eye contact. with secretary clinton, in one debate session, you did not look at her for five straight hours. what was the significance of that? >> he is fundamentally a coward. if you look at mitch landers

sing the way to deal with a bully is to fight back, that is what he does. part of that is he has a hard time going at some of the personal stuff. in 2020 he went at the president about his brother and hunter on the conspiracies things and digressed, but generally he is a coward. he shies away from it. i think the president, if you really want to understand, look at 2020, the first debate. it is going to be joe biden, similar, strong, vigorous, having things to say about what i've done for you and what we are going to do together going forward, and just listen to this guy malfunction. but there is this element, we have not had two presidents in 134 years trying to steal their job back and forth. the economic numbers overlap. they can shape these, present

these and carve these in all sorts of ways. you can have the smartest economist up there and they would not be sure. the muting actually might help the moderators more than anyone. it will give them a moment or 90 seconds to just retreat into silence, did he just say that about inflation? i want to follow up on that. >> real fast, we are out of time, something else that was interesting in that interview. -- takes great pride in being able to predict what trump might say, do or tweet before he does it. your former colleagues say it was uncanny watching you nail moments in debates before they happened. you still have that ability? >> i had an advantage because i was a new yorker. plus, in 2016, they thought he was a joke until he wasn't. he is the most predictable unpredictable person. it is safe to say he is going to complain about the muting

situation even though his campaign agreed to it and them moderators will say the campaigns agreed to this. it is easy to say what he is going to do. there are things that if i were him i would do that i don't want to say out loud. >> please don't. >> in the story as you saw, it is helpful if i don't take my medication. >> one other thing mentioned in that interview from 2021 is that you pointed out to the campaign that he complained about his microphone during his own campaign. >> he had been doing that and he has been complaining about teleprompters. he has this thing complaining about his appearances. they are coming after me to jail me. they are trying to jail me, what is joe afraid of, let me speak! >> i am sure that is exactly

what we are going to hear thursday night in atlanta. thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. joining me now to continue this conversation, megan hays. welcome back to the sunday show. i'm going to shift gears a little bit. just wondering, how cognizant do you think the biden campaign is about the incumbent's first debate, of course i am referring to president obama famously bombing his first debate against mitt romney. do you think the folks gathered at camp david have that top of mind, taking that seriously? >> he has not debated in four years. of course they are taking that seriously. the one thing about joe biden, he prepares and shows up on game day. he will show up and he will put his best foot forward for a debate. he knows the importance. >> how do you think the president will respond if

donald trump goes in on hunter? we are talking about an opponent who has no sense of shame, no sense of guilt, everything and everyone is fair game. >> i think the president will have to take a deep breath and as we all know, his family is deeply personal to him. he will handle it much like he did in 2020. no family has not been impacted by addiction. hunter was going through a terrible time when he was charged. he is not convicted. the president has made it very clear what he will do and not do for hunter and his legal troubles. he will have to take a deep breath and not let his temper get the best of him. he cannot fight back like a father but as a president. >> should we expect to see president biden go on offense? after all, he is running against a convicted felon. >> the president is notorious for not being bullied. he stands up to bullies, that is part of who he is. i do think he will be on the

offensive a little bit, here. he will push back in a respectful way. he won't make it personal, that is not who he is he will be on the offense. he also has a great record that he can highlight for the american people. >> as you well know, democrats default setting is panic. they have any reason to fear that president biden will not meet the moment? >> as someone who has worked for him for over a decade, i don't think so. the president has a great record to run on and a great vision for the next two years. so, i don't think so. but the democratic party is going to do what they are going to do, that is predictable. >> anything that happens that is a mistake will be blown up and amplified. just wondering, can president biden recover if he makes a mistake like forgetting a name or freezing or something else that will send democrats into a

panic? >> i think we also need to take a look back historically. when the cameras are on you for 90 minutes, you're going to make mistakes and not use the right words. that is not a mistake that is going to decide the election moving forward. i think the mistake is where president biden doesn't lay out his vision for the future and does not remind people what he has done. he needs to draw contrasts. >> everyone is going to be watching the other guy, both camps watching the other guy to see if that person makes a mistake who has the most to lose if they do make a mistake? >> i think president trump has a lot to lose. he is a chaotic person and was a chaotic president i think the more he talks the more he will remind people how chaotic his presidency was. i think that is a huge, huge liability for the former president. >> megan hays is sticking around. still to come, the fight for reproductive rights. democrats warned that trump could use a 150-year-old wall

-- law to ban abortion. first, my sound off panel is here to talk about the latest including some of the contenders to be donald trump's running mate trying to prove their loyalty even though trump says he has made his decision. don't go anywhere. more of a jampacked hour ahead on sunday show. day show. the n that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer.

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i think what you're going to see, the cnn moderators are going to do everything they can to go after president trump and get under his skin >> tomorrow i am sending a letter to his physician and i will cc his entire cabinet. i will be demanding upon millions of americans that he submit to a drug test, specifically looking for formants enhancing drugs.

>> maybe these two dudes should go first. megan hays is back with me but also joining, renee graham and associate editor for the boston globe and stuart stevens, senior advisor for the lincoln project and author of the conspiracy to end america. thank you very much for being here. renee, you go first. i would love your reaction to byron donald, renee cannot hear us. stuart, what is your reaction to the nonsense we just heard? >> i know a little bit about performance-enhancing drugs. there -- i can tell you i don't

know what he is talking about, it is crazy. nothing is going to make you smarter or better or no more about the country or be more likable. it is a classic example of projection. this dr. with a dubious history of drug abuse, certainly donald trump has many articles written about his use of drugs during the apprentice. it is the artist sort of silly mascot stealing kind of level of debate. that the president of the united states, i think it just sort of shows the hollowness of what they have to talk about. >> megan, what do you think? was ronnie jackson the white house medic when you were at the white house? >> he oversaw the vice president's office so i never dealt with him.

it is rich coming from a man who is sanctioned for his use of how he was giving out prescription drugs to people. it is also rich because this is a president who does not drink. to imply he would use drugs is something a little bit out of bounds. i think they have to do anything to lower expectations. >> i am assuming, we still don't have renee back, but let's switch gears and talk about the debate. let's listen to what --, what he expects from the debate, watch this. >> it really doesn't matter how donald trump shows up if he comes in unhinged or sits there and is quiet, people are going to know that he is a twice impeached convicted felon who is found to have defame somebody, sexually abuse

somebody and --. >> he says people are going to know. does he mean that the president is going to go after donald trump in that stark of language or is he talking about, just all that information is out there for anybody who wants to see it? >> i think he is talking about that these are facts, these are givens, there is nothing that will change when he walks out on the page personally, i would say he should go on the attack from the very beginning. whatever the first question comes to him, i would say i will answer that, but first i want to say 34 convictions and felony accounts is not for the president. this is the oval office. he should not be in this race, it is a disgrace. i would go straight at the attack. >> megan, would president biden actually do that? >> i am not sure he would do

that right out of the gate. that is not authentic to who he is, but you never know. >> one of the things we have been reporting since last night and again today, donald trump has said he knows who his vice presidential pick is, he hasn't told that person but that person will be there on thursday. lord only knows who will show up. there are three on the short list. the governor of north dakota, let's hear what they had to say on cnn earlier today. >> i think we have to look at the fact that president trump can win this race regardless of who is vice president. the whole country maybe knows my background which is both success in business and in the executive branch as governing. >> everybody knows his what?

>> there are cricket stars in india better known than the governor of north dakota. i actually think trump might pick him because he is the least threatening. jd vance has proven he will say anything, do anything, he will debase himself to any level. he is also from ohio. i think he would be the best pick, but donald trump rarely does the best thing. he does what is most comfortable. jd vance is a smart guy and knows policy. both of those do not apply to donald trump. i think he may pick this guy from north to go to who nobody has heard of. >> also the governor of north dakota is, relatively speaking, a wealthy man. you have a presumptive republican nominee who has a lot of troubles that need a lot

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my sound off panel is back with me. on a serious note, yesterday, my colleagues on the weekend interviewed the president of the heritage foundation. listen to his answer when he was asked if heritage would accept the results of the 2024 election. watch this >> is your organization going to accept the results of the 2024 election? >> if there is not massive fraud like there was in 2020. >> there was not massive fraud. >> there was. we have an election fraud database. >> just to be clear, the database he is talking about

includes just over 1500 proven instances of voter fraud since 1982. just putting that out there. stuart, why can't he just say yes? >> they don't believe in democracy. it is not complicated. they want elections to be performative but not decisive. the heritage foundation was, and sadly still is the electoral beating heart of the republican party. they have become an autocratic movement. what he gave is the same answer you would given russia. it is even worse than what they give in hungary. they do not believe in democracy. it is not surprising that they will say they will only accept the results if they like the results. >> last night, donald trump at a rally in philadelphia, i have

no words for what you are about to hear just listen to this. >> i said dana, dana, i have an idea for you to make a lot of money. you are going to go and start a new migrant fight league. only migrants. at the end of the year, the champion migrant is going to fight your champion. i hate to tell you i think the migrant might win. that is how tough they are. >> megan, this is just, i am speechless. this man is running for president of the united states and talks about human beings like they are chess pieces. >> i was just going to say they are people. it is disgusting and horrible. but there is no low.

every time you think you are at the low with him, he goes lower. again, human beings, not animals. >> stuart, your reaction to this? >> donald trump is obsessed with this kind of macho stuff. he has the role model of hannibal lector. life always imitates high school and he is the kind of guy that when it came down to showing up behind the waffle house on friday night, he would not be there. the man is a coward. it is disgusting, but look, this is really about who we are, not who donald trump is. he has made it clear. he is not going to change. he is on a downward trajectory in every sense. but, who are we as a country? is this what we want to embrace? his last speech was --. now we are going to this place,

the center-right party is advocating some sort of roman coliseum spectacle. i think it is a base character test of what america is today and who we are. >> i'm going to play one more bit of sound. i'm going to tell you the context first and then we are going to play it. donald trump was talking about how he has done more to defend america and religious freedom from marxist and communist forces and he has the wounds to prove it. nevermind that lincoln and kennedy were both assassinated, but listen to him and what he had to say. >> i have the wounds all over my body. if i took this shirt off you would see a beautiful, beautiful person, but you would see wounds all over me. i have taken a lot of wounds, i

can tell you. more than i suspect any president, ever. >> you know what? i am just going to let that sit and breathe like a fine wine. stuart stevens, megan hays, thank you both very much for coming back to the sunday show. i want to apologize to everyone we could not get renee graham back. i want to tell you she has a four-part series in the boston globe that takes a look at the 20th anniversary of the landmark decision in massachusetts that legalized same-sex marriage 20 years ago. please go to the boston globe website and read her great work. after the break, tomorrow marks two years since roe v. wade was overturned. now, democrats are overturning an archaic law that republicans

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(vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon tomorrow is the second anniversary of the dreadful dobbs decision, the supreme court ruling that stripped away a 50 year constitutional right to an abortion established by the 1973 roe v. wade decision and ushered in an appalling post reality. others have restricted access. we are still waiting for the supreme court to hand down his decision in the -- case which could restrict abortion care even further. at issue is whether state abortion bans override a federal law protecting the right to emergency --.

that's not the only way abortion opponents are working to turn back the clock. republicans want to enforce a long ignored 19th-century law called the comstock act which could ban the mailing of abortion while i -- abortion pills nationwide. the extreme blueprint for a second trump term from the heritage foundation. one democratic lawmaker is fighting back with a bill to repeal the law. senator tina smith calls the comstock act a backdoor national abortion band and warns it is too dangerous to leave this law on the books. joining me now is the democratic senator from the great state of minnesota, tina smith. senator, great to see you. thank you for coming to the

sunday show. senate republicans have already bought bills protecting access to contraception and ivf. why are you introducing this act? >> thank you, it is so good to be with you. i want to raise awareness of how there is this plan by maga extremists to ban access to abortion without going through congress. now come to find out these extremists are planning to use it as a way of banning abortion. i want people in states like minnesota and nevada to understand that there is this plan to take away those rights without any action of congress. i think this is a mobilizing issue and frankly, people are angry when they hear about it. >> the architect of project 2025 shared his stance yesterday. listen to what he said.

>> i just want to know, do you believe -- >> abortion can happen until three days after the person is born. >> as a person with an womb, that does not happen. >> does heritage and project 2025 believes that a woman should be able to have an abortion if her doctor says she should have one yes or no. >> abortion is not health core -- healthcare it is killing a human being. >> this gets to the core of what donald trump wants to establish in this country. we believe women should be making the decisions. that's what president biden thinks, they clearly do not trust women. they believe they should be the ones controlling decisions that people make about their own health care. i would say that most americans

want the freedom to make decisions for themselves. >> the supreme court, as you well know is expected to rule on emergency abortions possibly this week. here is what one woman in texas said about doctors withholding treatment options during her pregnancy. >> they would get halfway through a sentence and then stop, scared because of what the laws meant and how the laws of the state were just haunting these hospital room visits. it wasn't their fault, they would pause and say i am so sorry, i cannot say anymore. >> senator smith, you are shaking your head in just, what is going through your head? >> i am thinking about these judges and politicians who act as if they are the ones in the emergency room with these women. these women who are potentially facing life-threatening health

conditions. in the case of idaho where we have this ridiculous case, they are saying we should be the ones who decide whether a woman is able to get access to the emergency care she needs to save her life. that abortion ban in idaho says it is only if a woman is going to die. think what that position that puts physicians in. that is why one in five physicians are leaving idaho. women are unable to get the healthcare they need. physicians cannot practice in an environment where they are fearful of being prosecuted and held terminally liable and facing jail time. >> thank you, as always, for coming to the sunday show. of next, a critical race in the bid to control the house of representatives. why democrats are hyper focused on california's 41st district.

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formal federal prosecutor who ran for and lost this same house race two years ago. in a surprising competitive race, ken calvert. he was first elected in 1992 and is the longest-serving republican in the house. the recent redistricting in an area that is changing demographically may give him a better chance of winning this time. in one of his campaign ads, he cites his grandparents conservative values to argue that he is a better candidate than his republican opponent. >> they taught me that the gop stood for small government, personal responsibility, law and order and standing up to russia. the reason i am a democrat today, the party my grandparents believed in no longer stands for any of those things. this has kept him in office for 32 years. i am a lot of what the

republican party used to be but isn't anymore. i care about your freedom and your security. >> joining me now is will rollins. thank you for coming to the sunday show. as i mentioned, this is the second time you are going up against congressman calvert. you lost by about 11,000 votes. why are you running again? >> that was the first time i had ever run for public office. i spent most of my career in law enforcement. i worked to counter terrorism. i got to work on cases involving ms 13, the cartel bitten old trackers. eventually, unfortunately, i had to help track down about two dozen people who attacked the u.s. capital one january 6. i originally decided to run for congress, it was impulsive. the truth is i was just mad because he voted to decertify the election and called for

dropping charges. i had only about six months after my primary to run. we almost beat him in the midterms. i know we can get the job done in 2024 because we are continuing the coalition of democrats and moderate republicans who believe in the rule of law, people like my grandparents. that is what it takes to flip a purple district like this one. >> one of the things that could help you is redistricting. it means your district now includes palm springs which has a significant guy community . as an out guy man who has criticized his opponent, do you think it will help you unseat him this time around? >> this is part of my life story. ilog -- walked into my first class, saw the north tower

collapse, thought about enlisting but was petrified of being outed like a lot of kids at the time. eventually i had to find a different path into service. that is how i ultimately made it to counterterrorism at the department of justice. people like ken calvert who are still in office and have some of the worst anti-lgbtq voting records voted against letting us serve in the military and adopt kids, voted against the matthew shepard and james byrd junior hate crimes act, that is a powerful motivator for our community. the truth is that equality and freedom for guy americans makes this entire country stronger. i think people see that across party lines and that is why we are going to end up flipping this seat. >> donald trump endorsed your opponent and wrote, we care more about --. will trump be a factor for voters in your district in the

selection? >> i think he will. i think people, more importantly like calvert, who have started saying dangerous comments about the fbi being infiltrated, that the department of justice is weaponized, that have voted to defund federal law enforcement, that kind of message from the maga caucus is a huge turnoff to moderate republican voters to people who believe in the rule of law who know that the system of justice should be blind and nobody should be above the law in this country. that is why i am proud to have the endorsement from people like the former republican sheriff in riverside county. there are people of good faith on the other side of the aisle that we can bring to the table in this campaign and that is how we win seat like california 41. >> another endorsement you got and i want to mention, you have the palm springs police

officers association endorsement which is significant because they endorsed him when you ran in 2022. will rollins, democratic congressional candidate for the 41st district, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. >> thank you. if people want to help, please visit online. we also want to note that we did invite congressman ken calvert to come on but did not hear back. more after a break. break. in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention.

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a programming note for tomorrow. you can see the full interview with vice president harris on the second anniversary of the reversal of roe v. wade tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. eastern on msnbc. that is tomorrow on morning joe at 6:00 a.m. eastern. that will do it for me. thanks for watching. i will be back next saturday and sunday. follow us on x, tiktok and threads. and catch clips of the show on u youtube for free. don't go anywhere for free. don't go anywhere hello, i'm craig melvin, and this is "dateline.": ma. ok. we are-- robin owens: oh, god. oh, god. . hello, i'm greg melvin and this is "dateline."