sleep till brooklyn, and that's what we're going to do. no sleep until saturday, you can go to msnbc.com/democracy2024. msnbc.com/democracy2024. and you can get tickets if you're near new york to come see rachel and lawrence and chris hayes and joy reid and myself and a lot of other folks. we're going to have a lot of conversations. september 7th, it's called msnbc live, democracy 2024. look at everybody on there. our first live event of this kind and scale. so go to that url and join us if you happen to be near new york. i'll see you there. questions, answers, there's even a dinner. that does it for us. "the reidout" with joy reid starts now. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> i took the documents. i'm allowed to.

>> let me tell you, i have the absolute right to do whatever i want with them. i have the right. >> no, no, no, he does not have the right. to keep america's most closely guarded secrets. and look how he kept them, in overturned boxes alongside newspapers, keepsakes and maybe junk. also tonight, julian assange is set free to some, he's a champion of truth. to others, he's a dangerous and reckless criminal who put many lives at risk by revealing sensitive information to the public. plus, the polls remain open in new york as progressive democrat jamaal bowman faces a tough primary battle to keep his seat in the most expensive house primary ever. but we begin tonight with the continued efforts by a trump appointed judge to defy legal norms in order to show deference to the man who put her on the bench. of course, i'm referring to one judge aileen cannon, who for a third day has decided to give donald trump and his lawyers a

forum to put on his newest form of a reality show. and his attempts to either throw out his federal classified documents case altogether or at minimum, chip away at the heaping piles of evidence prosecutors will be able to use if a trial were ever to be scheduled. it is no surprise that trump has filed motion after motion in this case that is his right to do. but the fact that cannon has been willing to entertain every one ad nauseam, even when there's little legal or evidentiary basis only further confirmed the appearance that the delay is the point. remember, there is still no trial date thanks to judge cannon, which means there are no firm deadlines in place to resolve the remaining issues. and today's episode, trump's lawyers tried to make the case that the original search warrant used for mar-a-lago in 2022 which was approved by the magistrate judge under judge cannon, was not valid and should be tossed out along with more than 100 documents marked

classified that were collected. even more consequential was their other argument that all of those damning notes from trump's lawyer evan corcoran that point out trump's clear intent to obstruct justice and stalling on turning over those classified documents, should also be tossed out under attorney/client privilege. even though a federal judge in washington, d.c. already ruled that corcoran's contemporaneous notes were admissible because of what is known as the crime fraud exception that overruled attorney/client privilege if what was discussed was in pursuit of committing a crime, like, say, obstruction of justice. we have seen what those notes look like. throughout the indictment where it refers to trump attorney number one, who has been identified as corcoran. there is this part where they're discussing what to do about the fbi's subpoena request for the classified documents. quote, trump, in sum and substance made the following statements among others as memorialized by trump attorney

number one. a, i don't want anybody looking. i don't want anybody looking through my boxes. i really don't. i don't want you looking through my boxes. b, well, what if we, what happens if we just don't respond at all or don't play ball with them? c, wouldn't it be better if we just told them we didn't have anything here? and d, look, isn't it better if there are no documents? and then there's also this beauty when discussing what documents they should ultimately turn over. quote, during that connotation, trump made a plucking motion as memorialized by trump attorney number one. he made a funny motion as though, well, okay, why don't you take them with you to your hotel room and if there's anything really bad in there, pluck it out. that was the motion he made, he didn't say that. no wonder trump's lawyers want to get those thrown out. that's just part of it. new reporting on those notes from abc news who said they have reviewed the records, claims to show that trump privately expressed concerns that turning

over those classified documents after receiving the subpoena could result in criminal charges. while trump continued to try to get his lawyers to lie and destroy documents for his benefit. quote, he raised the question as to if we gave them additional documents now, would they -- would they, the department of justice, come back and say well, why did you withhold them and try to use that as a basis for criminal liability or to make him look bad in the press, according to corcoran's notes. and yet, with all of these matters having already been decided by other judges, judge cannon has again felt the need to burn through a lot of time on trump's behalf, and today, we are again no closer to beginning a trial that trump knows he cannot win. joining me now is barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney, professor at the university of michigan law school, and msnbc legal analyst. and mary mccord, former acting assistant attorney general for national security and cohost of the prosecuting donald trump podcast. thank you, ladies, both for

being here. i'm going to start with you mary at the table. is there any world in which that search warrant is invalid, and can you imagine why a judge would hold an entire hearing on that question? >> i don't think there's any world based on the arguments that were made, and actually some of the reporting out of the courtroom does seem that judge cannon actually was also skeptical of trump's arguments. he made arguments in two flavors. one was that he was entitled to what's called a frapg's hearing named after a case called franks v. delaware which says if there are recklessly misleading information or omissions in search warrant, and if without those, there would not have been probable cause, then the entire -- the evidence seized pursue nlt to the search warrant could be suppressed. he wanted to have a hearing and hear from agents about the search warrant, but they were

things like not saying in the search warrant that within the fbi, there were some people who thought they should ask for consent rather than do a search warrant. so what? it has nothing do with probable cause. things like explaining in the search warrant that when he was president, he was held at top secret clearance and was able to be briefed on top secret information at mar-a-lago. so what? this is all post presidency. and the reporting i saw, some from out of the courtroom, is that judge cannon at one point sort of also said so what, aren't we now talking about post presidency? >> i do have some optimism, the other basis it was too broad, it allowed for a search of too many places. the judge said if nothing was seized from places that were not particularlyized in the warrant, what is your harm? he didn't have a response. >> barb, the thing is trump's lawyers seem to be bringing up are things like when they unpacked the boxes, they didn't put things back in the box

exactly in the order they were in. if they were next to an old people magazine with trump's face on the cover, it should have gone right back next to the people magazine. if they were next to dirty drawers or shirts in another box, where again, classified documents shouldn't have been, but if they didn't put it back, those are the kinds of arguments they were making. is there any world in which that is a reasonable argument as to why a search should be thrown out? >> no, in fact, with regard to this particular argument, they're asking not just that the evidence be suppressed but the whole case be dismissed, suggesting there is something nefarious going on about all this. no, this is an issue that certainly the defense can raise on cross-examination. i don't know why it would matter whether the classified document was before or after the christmas card that he had saved from some fan who had written him. but to the extent it suggests that perhaps it was hidden behind another document and it was difficult for him to see, i don't think that's going to

square up with the other evidence that we have seen about the obstruction and some of the other things. but that's an argument that the defense can make at trial for the jury, but it's not a basis for suppressing the evidence in advance of trial. >> see, that is at trial is the thing to me that is the key point there. these sound like the things that should be litigated as part of a case that's happening. it seems that judge cannon is interested in having all sorts of hearings about all sorts of ephemeral issues. what she's not interested in doing is starting the trial. >> or ruling on some of the motions. >> she's listening like she's sort of in judge school and taking her time and not deciding anything. is there any way for jack smith's office to force her to start the trial? >> not really. the trial judge has control of their own calendar. i mean, there's been a lot of talk about will one of these opinions, if she ever issues a ruling, be appealable, and

several she heard, in fact everything she's heard the last three days, a negative decision would be appealable by jack smith. if she were to dismiss the case on grounds that the special counsel wasn't properly appointed under the constitution or that the funding doesn't come from the right bucket of funding, that could be appealable. if she were deny the motion to modify the conditions of release to prevent mr. trump from saying things that cause a significant imminent risk of danger to law enforcement, they can appeal that. if she were to suppress evidence pursueabout to the suppression motion, that includes evan corcoran's notes, that would also be appealable. these all might give, depending on the ruling, give the special counsel a chance to go up to the 11th circuit and seek a reversal, which just depending on the circumstances may or may not be a chance for them to seek a recusal. people ask about that all the time. the government is loathe,

loathe, loathe to seek a recusal. >> barb, the "wall street journal," for god's sakes, has new information about just how many doubts the judges, the senior judge in her same circuit had about her, whether she should stay on the case. then you add to that dragging her feet. you know, there has been this talk of a writ of mandamus, could jack smith demand that a court higher than her order the start of the trial. is that something you cannot see happening? >> not yet. i mean, it is a possibility because one important consideration is that it is not just the defendant but also the public that has a right to a speedy trial. under the federal speedy trial act, while all these motions were pending, the clock was stopped. she now has now that she's held the hearing, 30 days to issue decisions on these. now, there are provisions under even the speedy trial act to extend that for issues of complexity. and in this kind of case, she probably could do that. at some point, if she simply

fails to rule on these motions or set a trial date, that could be a basis for seeking a writ of mandamus which is really just a request for the higher court to say to the district judge, make a decision, do your job. the time has come. you can't wait anymore. you know, again, just as mary said, the government is loathe to request a recusal. i think the government is also loathe to request a writ of mandamus. it is supposed to be granted under only rare circumstances. but at some point, that is a card that the government can play if the judge continues to delay in making decisions. >> let's talk about the other case. there's now a partially lifted gag order in the hush money case. this is ahead of the debate. so judge merchan has lifted restrictions on trump's ability to comment on the witnesses who testified against him during his trial, as well as part of the order barring him from discussing the jury that convicted him finding the witnesses and jury's work had concluded so no fear of impact of the proceedings. part of it stays in place.

he cannot attack prosecutors and family members of any counsel, staff member, the court, or the district. does this seem like it protects the jury enough though? >> the one other piece that still is in place is a protective order which was separate from the gag order. the protective order remains in place, which bars mr. trump from revealing identities of jurors. so i was a little surprised that -- i'm not surprised he lifted it with respect to witnesses, particularly michael cohen and stormy daniels just because he had already indicated during trial that, if they continue to make statements about the trial, that they didn't maybe need that protection. but for the jurors, i guess i was a little surprised. and so i think that what judge merchan really was trying to signal is that you are free to talk about this case and the verdict and how much you disagree with this verdict without running afoul, but the protective order remains in place. even with respect to the other aspects of the gag order, prosecutors and families and judicial staff, court staff, he

indicated that would lift as of july 11th after the sentencing. >> barb, one other thing, we have gone from the not so sublime to the ridiculous. i want to put up trump's latest fund-raising email. this is what he's claiming. i don't know if you can read that. he is claiming they tortured me in the fulton county jail and took my mugshot, in all caps. of course, they're supposed to get a mugshot. so guess what, i put it on a mug for the whole world to see. your thoughts barb. >> well, you know, again, this is incredibly reckless conduct. to say that he was tortured. i mean, does he mean that figuratively? i'm sure he doesn't mean he was physically tortured. there is absolutely no basis in fact for that. it's so reckless because he knows that there are people out there who will hear that as a call to action. just as the proud boys heard his comment as a call to action. just as when he falsely claimed that the fbi had planted evidence at mar-a-lago during

the search, that someone heard that as a call to action, attacked an fbi office in cincinnati the next day with an assault weapon, and was killed later that day in a stand-off with police. it's incredibly reckless to use this kind of rhetoric, and he has to know that. it is inviting vigilante violence and it is making our country more dangerous. >> yeah, the sad thing is he surely does know it and doesn't care. barbara mcquade, thank you. mary is going to stay with me. up next on "the reidout," julian assange is in court right now after he agreed to plead guilty on one charge in exchange for his release. we'll take a deeper look into the outsized impact he's had on this country, including wikileaks being a major reason why trump won in 2016. we'll be right back. i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it.

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. any minute now, julian assange is expected to plead guilty to a single felony count of violating the espionage act. a hearing is under way at a federal courthouse in the u.s. territory of the northern mariana islands about 6,000 miles from the u.s. mainland. his plea is part of a deal his attorneys reached with the justice department which puts an end to a long legal saga involving the australian who has had a huge impact on american domestic and international politics. assange was released from a british prison on monday, where he spent the last five years, while fighting extradition to

the u.s. on more than a dozen charges that he illegally obtained and disseminated classified information on his site wikileaks. starting in 2010, wikileaks published classified documents and material provided by former army intelligence analyst chelsea manning as well as thousands of diplomatic cables. but the reason you're probably most familiar with assange's work has a lot to do with this. >> russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. >> turns out russia was listening because that same day, russian government hackers went after hillary clinton's personal office. the russians had already hacked into the democratic national committee's networks and fed emails scraped from there to wikileaks, with the goal of harming hillary clinton's campaign, and donald trump was more than happy to accept the help. >> wikileaks is unbelievable.

what we have learned about her and her people. >> i tell you, this wikileaks stuff is unbelievable. it tells you the inner heart. you have to read it. >> we love wikileaks. boy, they have really -- wikileaks. they have really revealed a lot. >> i love reading those wikileaks. >> now, this just came out. this just came out. wikileaks, i love wikileaks. >> once trump was in office, his first attorney general, jeff sessions, called arresting assange a priority. and the trump doj prepared charges represented to the 2010 publication of diplomatic cables in iraq and afghanistan war documents to wikileaks. by the time assange was arrested in 2019, donald trump conveniently changed his tune, claiming to know nothing about wikileaks, the website he once said he loved. the biden administration is the third administration to try to deal with julian assange.

the obama justice department determined that the first amendment questions around publishing classifying documents made bringing charges difficult. as for the current plea deal, the justice department has dropped a majority of the 17 violations of the espionage act and a hacking charge against assange as part of the deal. the sentence will be the time he served in britain, 62 months. joining us is eugene robinson. these are complicated issue. mary, can you understand why the justice department would make this deal and why now? >> i think in large part, it is because they have been fighting in courts in britain this extradition now for five years. they had some success there, but now it's up on appeal. meanwhile, he has served five years of time. they're being pressured by the australian government, you know, his home country, to reach a

compromise here. and so, i think it's probably an assessment of he has already served, you know, a substantial amount of time that is not completely out of whack with other people who have done similar, not the same things, not the same things at all, but and the fact that there's no guarantee they would ever win on extradition. i will note that the charge they're making him plead to is that conspiracy to obtain the national defense information and disseminate it. that conspiracy, and this is what makes him different than so many other people, one of the many ways, involved him really pressuring, reaching out to chelsea manning, not only constantly prying her to get him classified information, but also working with her to try to hack into government secret systems. really to try to break the code to do that. so that is no different than saying, let me come with you and let's try to break into an office building and break into a

safe and steal classified informations. >> there's been sort of an interesting kind of reaction to julian assange from the very beginning. you had people who saw him as this first amendment hero. people who saw him as somebody who was attacking the united states system. there's also this other piece of his story, from seven years, 2012 to 2019, he was hiding inside the ecuadorian embassy in london because he was evading extradition because they were investigating him for rape allegations. that's another aspect of him. what is your view? >> well, he's a very complicated figure, as you can imagine. you know, as you just described. look, there are some things that julian assange has done that qualify as journalism in my book, that qualify as valuable contributions to the public discourse. he told us things about the afghanistan war, for example, that we didn't know.

things about stuff that had already happened that we didn't know and that we the public should have known, similar to the pentagon papers. and so there's that part of him. that, i think, is the lesser part of him because there's the other part. the other things that he did to essentially help the russians torpedo the candidacy of hillary clinton in a very political and very overt way. the hacking into government and other computers is against the law. it's not something journalists do or journalists condone. and i don't condone it. and you know, those sexual assault or rape allegations in sweden, they were eventually dropped. they were never really explained away, to my satisfaction. but you know, he's no longer charged with that. but it does say something about

the man. so he's a very, very complicated figure, and that's why you have different people, like rfk jr. is like, i love julian assange. it's so great that he's out of jail. and you have others who are just kind of quiet about it. >> yeah. >> who don't really have much to say. >> yeah, and then there's marjorie taylor greene who is lamenting him coming out, calling him a hero. nobody should break it to her it was her favorite president's justice department that prosecuted him in the first place. the challenge for a lot of people is the second part of what eugene said. first, this man is not american, he's australian. for a foreigner to literally interfere in our election, to get between voters and their choices by saying i'm going to steal information about one candidate and throw that out there without context to make you not vote for that candidate, that's literally foreign interference, on top of the fact some of the stuff he found could get people killed.

>> that's another police i think he's not a real journalist. i would disagree that he's a real journalist because journalism to me and believe it or not, i was a journalism major before i was a lawyer, is about adding some value to the content. it's not just simply being a pass through, and he's really a pasthrough. even assuming that qualified as journalism, the responsible journalists i know and so many i have spoken to throughout the years, especially after leaving my position, they would not have published the names of people who helped our military in countries like iraq and afghanistan and iran. knowing that the publishing of those names put those people at risk of death. and we know that information that was published by wikileaks on the internet was found at the raid of osama bin laden's compound when he was killed. we know the taliban reached out specifically to "the new york times" saying we're studying this and taking down these names so that for retribution. that is irresponsible, not only

for national security, but also just it's an inhumane thing to do in my opinion. for national security, it means not only are you putting them at risk, but other people will be less willing to work with us and our military overseas. >> i'm going to give you the last word, eugene. he also in some ways is responsible for us having to endure four years of donald trump. who also took classified documents. >> exactly, and so assange should never be forgiven for that. and it's absolutely right that there is that additional step of, you know, i have been at "the washington post" for a long time. there's a lot of information that our reporters have found out that we have not published because, you know, over the years in various stories, simply because it would put people's lives in danger, put national security in danger. and so those judgments that are made by journalists were not

made by wikileaks, and that's true. you know, is the same thing true of daniel ellsberg? well, kind of, but "the washington post," "the new york times," the boston globe, the papers that publish those pentagon papers did exercise that extra step. >> he was an american who cared about america. >> now that is true. >> you gene robinson and mary mccord, thank you both very much. up next, polls are still open in new york. get out there and vote, y'all. a lot of updates on one of the most talked about primary races this year. progressive congressman jamaal bowman fighting to keep his seat. we'll be right back. choose advil liqui-gels for faster, stronger and longer-lasting relief than tylenol rapid release gels because advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. so for faster pain relief, advil the pain away.

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key primaries are under way in new york, utah, and colorado where lauren boebert is pushing pause on her multiple scandals to salvage her place in congress. last year, boebert switched to a solidly republican district on the opposite side of the state to boost her chances of staying in the house. meanwhile, primary day in new york is coming to a close. polls are open until 9:00 p.m. eastern. anyone in line by 9:00 will be allowed to cast their vote. hurry up, new yorkers, you still have time.

all eyes on the state's 16th congressional district which covers parts of westchester county and the northeast bronx. representative jamaal bowman is facing a well funded challenge from westchester county executive george latimer. it's the most expensive congressional primary in history with almost $25 million raised and spent. it's also a bitter and divisive race, putting a spotlight on the democratic party's tensions around gaza as well as its divisions around race, wealth, and corporate greed. >> i just feel like bowman is little too aggressive. i watch his rallies. i watch the way he's campaigned. it's always aggressive. i feel like when you're at a certain place in politics you have to speak with a vocabulary that is edible for all crowds, you have to speak where we can relate to, all the cursing, profanity, it's not needed because you're a man representing everyone. >> i can tell there's been a lot of money spent on this race. and it is important.

it's very important, especially the westchester county and the northeast bronx. we need muchy coming in the community to help the community out. we need housing, affordable housing. we need programs for the kids. we need summer programs, summer jobs. >> joining me now from mt. verner, new york, is nbc news correspondent ali vitali. every time i hear mt. vernon, i want to say money earned in mt. vernon. talk to me about what you're hearing out there. what are you seeing? is there energy that's visible for either candidate? >> reporter: there's energy, but i have to say, there's also a lot of reluctance. as i have been talking to voters, they are very much aware of the vitriol that has marked the race and very much aware of the amount of eyeballs on the race given the fact that $25 million have nearly been spent here on the airwaves. if you wanted to ignore this race, you basically cannot because everything where you go,

every deli, every radio station is playing an ad for or against jamaal bowman or for or against george latimer. that's why we're seeing people turn out, but i will say as i have been standing out here today, we have been out here since around 6:30 this morning it's been a slow trickle. that's not to say there aren't voters who are enthusiastic, but they're reluctant to share how they're voting because they don't want their neighbors to judge their choice. it's a really difficult one and there's a lot of different dynamics at play. >> you had a chance to talk to people. i have been enjoying all of your interviews. i know you have sound. >> we did get a chance to talk with congressman jamaal bowman about this. i did speak with him and george latimer over the weekend over what's governing this race. what's so striking is that bowman himself would point to apack, would point to the stances he's taken on things like gaza as the reason he has a challenger. his challenger says, though, that was only one of the reasons that he ultimately decided to get in this race. the other things he pointed to

were vulnerabilities that may explain why we're seeing the sheer amount of spending that we're seeing here in the first place. the fact that bowman is one of the progressives that experts and operatives i talk to, that you talk to, largely saw as vulnerable at the start of the cycle. i asked bowman what the tension around this race has done to the community members who are voting in it, and why we're even seeing that reluctance when i'm out here asking voters how they're voting and why. listen to a part of our conversation. >> even as i have talked to voters there are some who are like i don't want to share who i voted for. i don't want my neighbors to know. it's gotten tense. >> because apac are bullies, they intimidate people. and my opponent has sided not just with apca but with republican billionaires and because he's been in office so long and because he's been county executive giving people jobs, people are afraid. >> reporter: you hear bowman

there, again, turn the conversation back towards apac, and something he did multiple times in our conversation. we have to point out, aipac aligned groups have spent over $14 million. they're responsible for the bulk of the cash that's been spent on the airwaves here, and most of those ads, although it's a group that is pro-israel, most of those ads have been about the ways that bowman has voted in congress in ways that are divergent from the biden administration. it's not like those ads themselves are overtly focused on israel and gaza, but that's an issue that voter themselves have surfaced here. i will add there's one interesting piece of reporting we picked up in about the last hour or so. it's the fact that while latimer himself has said, if i lose here, i'm not running for this seat anymore. bowman himself was asked just in the last hour or so will you agree not to run with the working families party or stay on the ballot in some kind of way, and he just simply dodged the question. and instead just said we're going to win. which of course is the posture that candidates, you know this,

take on election night because optimism is the only way to get through it. at the same time, it's something latimer has made clear he's knocking down, and bowman is very much not. >> that is very interesting, because that was what i was going to ask you. does this feel like a divide? it feels racial, it feels regional. it's very different people, very different demographics. does it feel like a healable rift as you're talking to people? >> i think actually the answer to that question is something that we have talked about in our reporting and our stories on this race overall, which is the fact this feels in some ways like a 2016 redux. it's got different issues at play, but the fact that bernie sanders and hillary clinton are both key endorsers in this race on opposite sides just shows how long this rift within the democratic party has been going on. and the ways in which that divide after 2016 was healable, okay, let's see if it's healable on a microscale here in the 16th congressional district of new york. but i think it's important to note, too, we're already

starting to see seeds of doubt be sown, especially from members of the justice democrats saying hakeem jeffries and congressional leadership didn't do enough, trying to are bread crumb a reason for the loss if he loses. these are the things that make divides really hard to heal. >> fascinating. such a great reporter. nbc's ali vitali, so lucky to have you. thank you so much. and coming up, the outsized consequences of african countries rejecting ties with their former colonial overlords in the west and why we should be paying attention. we'll be right back. (vo) in three seconds, this couple will share a perfect moment. (woman) is that? oh wow! but we got to sell our houses! (vo) well, almost perfect. don't worry. just sell directly to opendoor.

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directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. if you have been following news out of africa, you noticed a growing number of custries have cast aside ties with former colonial states in europe in lieu of newer ties. since 2020, we have seen it in mali and niger, who have thrown off their ties with france. many of the military officers who led coups in those countries capitalized on the disallusionment with their government's relationship with western countries, overthrowing the democratically elected leaders amid frustration about growing militant islamic violence and economic instability. this same theme played a central role in senegal, which just elected a young new president who campaigned on ending corruption and boosting the economy. key to that promise was a vow to

improve the country's control over its natural resources, to prevent economic enslavement. in eastern cong oh, one of the most mineral rich regions in the world, hundreds of gangs have plunged their country into a humanitarian disaster because they're fighting to control those mines, their minerals, and the money. the government of the democratic republic of congo has accused apple of ignoring the disaster in order to take advantage of illegally extracted minerals which are key components in making electronics like your cell phone. meanwhile, civil war has been raging for two years in sudan, where two warring leaders are locked in a deadly struggle for control of the state and its resources. their war has decimated the country, leaving roughly 15,000 confirmed dead, more than 2 million have fled the country, with 10 million people internally displaced. 18 million facing acute hunger, and a broken health system on the brink of collapse. this civil war has been

exploited by regional players like saudi arabia and the united arab emirates. it's also being exploited by russia which is handing out weapons in exchange for access to the red sea and the country's abundant gold. joining me now is cameron hudson, who has served in the state department, the cia, and the national security council. now a senior fellow for the africa program at the center for stategic and international studies. it seems there are two things going on on the continent. there is this desire to throw off the old colonial bosses of europe that have exploited the country and enslaved people there, carted off people and eaten up the nation's resources, giving them very little in return except dictators. also this growing eye toward a new friend, china, which seems to be the new friend in town. >> yeah, i mean, i think what you're seeing here is the

choices that african countries have to make right now in terms of who their partners are going to be. we're experiencing i think the end, the definitive end of the kind of post cold war era where the united states and its western allies had won, and were able to kind of impose both economic and democratic orthodoxies on african countries. we could sanction them when they stepped out of line. we could incentivize them when we thought they could move on a more democratic path. but really, i think washington and its western allies were very much the only game in town from a developmental, from a political perspective. and i think that what we're now experiencing is both the withdrawal of america from a withdrawal of america from that role of predominance in the international realm, but also the entrance of new players. you mentioned a few of them. china, russia, saudi arabia,

turkey. so, african countries today have a host of opportunities to choose partnerships that suit them and benefit them and don't necessarily require them to subscribe to these orthodoxies that washington and its allies have been imposing on them for the better part of the last 30 years. >> world bank kind of setup has not been beneficial to these countries. they have remained poor. most people remained poor. a few dictators got rich. you hear a lot of talk of working with and dealing with russia, dealing with china. are these countries getting more from those partnerships than they have gotten from the west? >> what they are getting from those partnerships is a kind of no strings attached relationship. when you do business with russia or china, you are not getting conditions on your investment. so there are no demands on transparency. on workers rights. on freedom of expression.

democratic reforms. economic reforms. transactional relationships. whereas washington remains a certain leader when it goes to investment deals with these countries. they require a level of transparency. they require countries to make certain reforms on a democratic path or economic transparency and these countries simply have a choice to choose other partners that will not make those same demands on them. russia and china are benefiting from this, but i think what many african leaders would say is they are benefiting as well. the question is, will washington accept those terms? it has been able to dictate the terms for decades. will washington accept these terms? that remains to be seen. >> when we see what is happening in kenya, the united states would like to use them and use their forces in haiti, but it seems like what they do

is demand democratic reforms, but they are happy to take a dictator if they can get the minerals, right? there hasn't been real reform that the u.s. is propagated anywhere, that i can think of. >> i think the challenge washington faces as it has these kinds of sentiments when it is approaching africa and it is based on values and interest. we have democratic values which we hold a printout around the world, but we also have a set of hard interest and whether those are access to critical minerals that will drive the economy in the 21st century. hard security interest. keeping russia and china at bay. it is a really difficult balancing act that washington often gets wrong, rarely gets right, about balancing interests and values that the same time and these countries are also playing a game where they are trying to engage us around those values, as kenya has been doing recently. they had a state visit to

washington around shared democratic values. again today in kenya, police officials fired on protesters protesting high taxes, so it is that balance that african countries and washington are finding difficult to strike and that russia and china don't command of them. >> cameron hudson, thank you very much. coming up, a landmark announcement today from the surgeon general. be right back.

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today, the u.s. surgeon general made a landmark announcement declaring gun violence a public health crisis. the advisory released by america's top doctor, vivek murthy, underscores the toll both physical and mental that gun violence has had on americans. noting that the rate of gun related deaths reached a near three decade high in 2021, driven by homicide and suicides, but perhaps most jarring is the unique danger gun violence poses for young people. since 2020, guns of been the number one cause of death among children in this country, surpassing car accidents, drug overdoses or cancer. in fact, the rate of gun related deaths among children here is more than five times that of canada, about 18 times the rate in sweden and more than 22 times higher than in australia. this epidemic is so uniquely

american, so what will this announcement actually do? the surgeon general is calling for an approach similar to what we've seen in the past with cigarettes and car accidents. he is recommending an increase in funding for gun violence research, encouraging health providers to talk to patients about safe and secure firearm storage during routine visits, and urging lawmakers to implement universal background checks, red flag laws and an assault weapons ban among other measures, writing, the safety and well-being of our children and future generations are at stake. that is tonight's "reidout", but before we go a quick announcement. if you are in new york saturday, september 7, join us for msnbc live. our fan event in brooklyn, new york. go to msnbc.com. scan the qr code on the