that does it for us in very dark and cold aspen, colorado. make sure to mark your calendars for saturday, september 7th. we will be in brooklyn and you can join us on msnbc live democracy 2024. very special live event, talking about the most pressing issues of our time and there will be a sitdown dinner. scan the qr code on your screen for tickets. it will be a good time. for now, we are going to sign off. i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the network of nbc news, and maybe some coyotes behind me, thank you for staying up late. i will see you again tomorrow. there have been a lot of

televised political debates over the years, a lot of them featured joe biden. he was on the debate stages in 1988 and 2008 and 2012 and 2020 . we are not even counting 2024, yet. if you had to pick one moment where joe biden was able to beat back his critics and win the moment in as few words as possible, it would probably be this one. >> an editorial in the los angeles times said, in addition to his uncontrolled verbosity, biden is a gaffe machine. you have the discipline you need on the world stage? >> yes. >> thank you, senator biden. >> that was joe biden during the 2008 democratic

presidential primary debates. while moments like that did not win biden the democratic nomination, we later learned his performance on stage was a real factor in why barack obama chose joe biden to be his running mate. it is also a reminder that biden can be a very effective debater when he is calm and in control. by contrast, there is his opponent, donald trump. not a person who would ever willingly give up 28 seconds of a 32nd time allotment to make a point. trump, as we saw from the 20 16th and 2020 debates is not a creature of restraint or strategy, per se. today, trump gave an interview to the washington examiner where he talked about the upcoming debate and told his interviewer that he thinks debate is an attitude more than anything else, which makes sense if you have seen donald trump in a debate. in that same interview, trump was asked about whether or not his attitude had ever failed him, this is a reporter. a lot of people thought in the first debate with biden you were

somewhat over it, you just went after him too much. trump, that i interrupted him? yeah, i think, reporter. do you agree with that? trump answered, after a short pause, trump defended the interruptions before conceding that yes, there were too many. so yes, even donald trump is aware that his attitude can hurt him on the debate stage, especially when he is over and -- and. >> vote and let your senators know, make sure you let people know. i'm not going to that answer the question because the question is -- >> the radical left -- >> would you shut up, man? >> trump's attitude problems do not end with treatment of his opponents, he is also at is worth interrupting the

moderators. >> i will give you an answer to answer, sir. >> wait a second, you made a statement, i would love to answer. >> if you want to switch seats, we could do that. >> being over amped with opponents not good, talking over the moderator, also not good . donald trump is also at is worse on the defensive, as this moment with senator marco rubio during the republican primary debates in 2016. >> i have to say this, he hit my hands, no one has ever hit my hands. look at those hands, are those small hands? and he referred to my hands, if they are small, something else must be small, i guarantee you, there is no problem, i guarantee you. >> not that effective and also really gross. as the debates have shown us, trump is defensive about a lot of things and not just his undersized hands, also his cozy

relationship with certain autocrats. >> look, from everything i see has no respect for this person. >> that is because he would rather have a puppet as president of the united states and it is pretty clear -- >> no puppet, it is like watching somebody pour water into a teddy wreck spent battery pack. as as bad as that no puppet defense was, not a shocking or disqualified as his defense of election denial in 2016. >> d make the same commitment, sir, you are absolutely accept the result of the selection? >> i will look at it in the time, i'm not looking at anything now. >> are you not prepared -- >> what i'm saying, i will tell you at the time, i will keep you in suspense.

>> trump's most infamous moment in any debate was when he was forced to respond to a question about his relationship with white supremacist and offered not a condemnation but a call to arms. >> are you willing tonight, to condemn white supremacist and militia groups? >> give me a name. who would you like me to condemn ? >> proud boys. >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> if you're the biden campaign reviewing trump's worst debate moments, it is clear there's a lot to work with, if you want to spend the whole debate teasing out the insecure and undisciplined and destructive side of donald trump. what about joe biden himself? how much of this debate should he spent on his not insignificant accomplishments as president? does he talk about shepherding through the biggest investments in climate and infrastructure in a generation or the long list of actions he is taken on behalf of everyday americans like

working to end junk fees and lowering drug costs and trying to and big monopolies are the historically strong american economy he has overseen, which, by the way, the world bank recently said, is so strong it bolstered the entire world economy after a global pandemic. how much time should president biden spend focused on all that and how much time should he spent autocrat white supremacist election denial of the small hints that like to interrupt everyone all the time? that is really the question. >> no puppet. you are the puppet. >> during our cost of pod save american, john and tommy, john lovett is not here this evening, the authors of a new book called, democracy or else, how to save democracy in 10 easy steps. thank you for being here. you could bake brownies in 10

easy steps or save democracy. your choice. >> either or. >> until we get to your book, essential reading at this moment, you guys are astute observers of politics, you understand the strategy that goes behind the scenes in terms of prepping presidents or leaders for important moments. i do wonder as we barrel toward this debate on thursday, when you think about the sort of central question biden is faced with, how much to run on his own record, highlight what he has done versus how much to try to put trump on defense, what do you think the breakdown is and how do you think of it strategically? >> i think the president has to frame his accomplishments as down payments what he wants to continue to do the next four years. i know the slogan they have been using is, finish the job. i think that is smart, if people aren't feeling the effects of the legislation is passed yet, you don't want to

seem like you're talking past people. as quickly as he can pivot to the choice of the election, insulin is $35 now for seniors, i want to make a $35 for everyone, publicans blocked it, donald trump against it, give me another four years, i will make a $35 for everyone. you give donald trump four years, he will take away your healthcare. >> tommy, do you think as a practical matter, is it possible to get those details in the form of a debate? i agree, it is like a mud wrestling match, serve some utility in american politics, maybe it does, the biden campaign clearly thinks it does because they wanted the debate. really, as a matter of strategy, does he have to choose, can he do both? >> what jon is getting at, making the mistake of the referendum about your accomplishments and getting defensive and sounding defensive. the two minute answer when the trump mic is muted, we don't know if jake tapper will hog- tie him --

>> i hear the phrase, jake tapper and hog-tie i don't see that. >> you don't know jake tapper back in the day. here's what i've done, what i'm fighting for, why this guy is fighting for his rich donors and his friends and to keep himself out of prison. >> if we go blow-by-blow in terms of the issues they are likely to tackle, first and foremost, trump has been talking about the border, migrant ufc fights over the weekend, immigration is something republicans feel like they have democrats in a corner on. if you are biden talking him behind the scenes at the debate , what is the strategy for talking about the broken deal trump ruined on the border? and also, defending the policy he just launched. >> if it comes to the border first, biden can easily say, i just took an executive action on the border and i had to do that because we had a deal that would have been better,

bipartisan deal in congress, this guy told republicans to kill the deal because he wanted the issue to run on because for him, it is all about politics. i just nature family stay together, especially undocumented spouses of american citizens, who have been in the country 10 years. the difference is, he ripped families apart and i want to keep families together. >> i feel like saying, child separation over and over is what any democrat needs to use, as especially this democrat. >> there's a problem at the border, all democrat fix with both parties, concerned about disorder and chaos of the border and they want a system regularized and works. the problems congress not passing a law to take care of it in totality, he needs to make the case. >> one of the things i worry about, talking about holding together the democratic coalition, this is a careful balance, acknowledging the chaos at the border while also not dehumanizing the people looking for a better tomorrow, in many ways, formed the

backbone of the american economy . i wonder if you think there's any peril playing too much, i guess i will call it hardball, on the topic of migrants coming over the border? >> i spent a lot of time on another podcast we, wilderness, focus groups of latino voters, one thing that gets conflated as people talk about immigration, a lot of voters see the border as separate from immigration, including latino borders. for a lot of latinos, the border is issue of public safety. new arrivals, we want people to come to the country but we wanted to be orderly, we need a border. people that have been in the country for years, undocumented, people are much more welcoming. i think you have to separate out what is going on at the border, yes, we are going to be tough on the border, have a secure border, that is important, we don't want chaos. if you have been here for years and you're working hard, law- abiding, no criminal record, we

want you in this country, give you a path to citizenship. >> separating the two, making a distinction, in theory, the people coming over undocumented not to support the u.s. economy in 10 years could be the same people, i digress, that is a level of nuance this debate will not be able to tolerate. on abortion, tommy, you guys talked about this on pod save america this week, trump will push this to the state, as he has repeatedly when asked what his policy on abortion is. my is, both for democrats and republicans in swing states i feel like, it is really bad in a place like alabama and the deep south, will it get bad in my state? how do you create a sense of urgency if you are joe biden around that question? >> tell the story of donald trump selection and the people he put on the supreme court and how it led to this outcome. talk about what they plan to do next, push for federal abortion ban, full stop. push for limits on ivf, talking about getting rid of contraception. there's a radical right-wing base that comes along with

donald trump, they are a bunch of weirdos you don't want in your bedroom. he has to tell the broader story, a lot of people don't view trump as someone they think is socially conservative. in fact, his entire party is. >> if he is not socially conservative, it is about making him seem like he does not care what happens to families who are trying to exercise control over their own autonomy. >> trump will be up there saying, there's not national abortion ban, do you want to trust the guy who said last time, abortion is not the on the ballot the last time we debated and now we have abortion bans, one in three women in the country live under abortion bans my, you trust this guy that he will not enforce federal abortion ban in one all the people he was to stop the administration with are pushing hard, not just legislative ban but for him to take action on his own to ban birth control and abortion across the country. i don't think people want to

trust that. >> we are in a week waiting for several landmark decisions from the court i kind of wonder whether, traditionally the supreme court gets a certain group of the electorate exercise, whether right-wing conservatives or court watching democrats who understand the dynamics of the court. do you think it carries more weight in a moment like this? we will have decisions tomorrow night going into this debate, i wonder if you think that is an arrow in the biden quiver? >> you have a moment a lot of people are paying attention to the debate, a lot of important things happen at the court. you can make the case in the moment and sees on the opportunity to bring attention to the power of the court and the opportunity donald trump will have 10 name the most right-wing 32-year-old he can find to the courts the next four years and stacked the deck against us. i do think it is important case to be made. >> it is weird position for institutionalist like biden to

bring up any of the nefarious questionable activities, the extracurricular activities of people like sam alito and clarence thomas. certainly, the sort of partisan makeup of the bench is fair game if you're talking about what happens in the next four years. jon and tommy, the economy. this is the most, i think tricky terrain for biden, going back to your first answer, the fight, the work continues. >> finish the job. >> it is the patriots. >> sure, super bowl lxxix. he has, i think the thing that is frustrating to democrats and progressives, the amount of economic populism biden has put into action, capping insulin prices, taking on large corporations, banning junk fees, taking on live nation, inc. the first president to walk the picket line. i do wonder whether he will be able to talk about any of that tonight because so much of his

posture already feels like it is on the back foot with trump and the inflation message resonates to an eerie degree among the american public. >> yeah, that is why he can't spend a ton of time talking about what he accomplished him even though he accomplished a lot. when i got into office, because of the pandemic, inflation spiked all over the world communicate down faster here than anywhere else. you know what, people were dealing with high cost before the pandemic, dealing with high costs for decades. right now, housing and healthcare is too expensive so i'm working every single day to bring those costs down. we have some down but need to do more. lesson donald trump in office, he gave up corporate tax cut to rich people, he wants to do another one. do we think that is the best move for the middle class in the country? >> that must be so frustrating for president, i have to say. ron klain going out there saying, stop talking about bridges, biden spending too

much time building bridges instead of connecting with voters. i'm sure that ron klain is telling joe biden that right now. helping with debate prep. >> barack obama with the first answer the debate with mitt romney when he lost the debate, instead of hitting mitt romney on his tax plan, the moderators set them up to do, he talked about his achievements on race to the top and education. i remember watching the clip the other day, all of us backstage rely, oh no. ron told him to be careful about doing that. >> that is what he spent his time on, it matters. i do wonder, there is a famous piece of sound of ronald reagan in 1984 addressing his age. we have time to play it? let's play it. >> i will not make age an issue of this campaign, i'm not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent travis use and inexperience. >> first of all, that machine, that shut down the age

speculation, almost impossible to imagine any one thing biden can say. i wonder how you think he should broach it and whether he should go on offense about it first. >> it is remarkable okay zinger by literal trained actor shutdown a debate about his age. i think for biden -- >> we continue to play it to this day. >> biden will be more how he looks, his energy, how he sounds, whether he is punchy, finishes his bath and set of cutting him off. a lot of it is performance, it is feeder camp for politicians, hopefully they are practicing these things, get them up and energized and rested. that is the best bet. >> theater camp for politicians sounds like a place i never ever want to go. don't leave, i want to hear more about things like that after the break, jon and tommy. a lot to talk about including your new book so stick with me, it is out now, it is called democracy or else, how to save america and bake a brownie in

10 easy steps, i ad-libbed, that is not the full title of the book but you should still buy it. more to come with tommy vietor and jon favreau. more on primaries, steve kornacki a standing by at the big board. we will talk about the races tonight with significant consequences for the democratic party, that is right after the break. right thanks guys. [ surprised scream ] don't panic. gift easy with etsy. slowing my cancer from growing and living longer are two things i want from my metastatic breast cancer treatment. and with kisqali, i can have both. kisqali is a pill that when taken with an aromatase inhibitor helps delay cancer from growing and has been proven to help people live significantly longer across three separate clinical trials. so, i have the confidence to live my life.

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the most important elections in the modern history of this country. >> the specific grace senator bernie sanders was talking back in new york 16th congressional district where democrat jamaal bowman faces george latimer, westchester county executive in the most expensive house primary in u.s. history. almost $25 million have been spent in this primary. the pro-israel lobby american israel public affairs committee or a pac shelled out $14 million in ads, criticizing's bowman's position on the war in gaza. congressman bowman spoke against israel's actions in that conflict while mr. latimer refused to criticize israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. that refusal places them at the right of joe biden and senate majority leader chuck schumer. joining me from the big board is steve kornacki and test nbc and msnbc national political correspondent. thank you for being here, what can you tell us about the breaking news tonight? >> a lot of returns in the 16th district of new york, george

latimer with 13 point advantage over jamaal bowman. we just got a big batch right now, it comes down to a touch under 10 points, 9 1/2. let me see where that came from, what just happened as i came on the air, bigger chunk of the bronx county district, the district split between small share in the bronx, one of the boroughs of new york city, and the vast majority of the district's north in westchester county, the suburbs of new york city. the bronx portion, you can see about three-quarters of the expected vote is in. we knew jamaal bowman's big core base within the district, when he ran in 2022, he got several primary challengers around the last time in 2022 and 91% of the pot -- vote in the bronx portion, he is running 83.5, when you get up big batch from the bronx portion of the district, it will boost his numbers district

wide. when you look within the bronx, 83.6 is not where he wants to be. he got 91% here, he had primary challengers in 2022. he did not get much more than 50% districtwide in 2022. he wants to be very close to that 91 in the bronx, running 83.5, a lot of the vote in from the bronx county portion of the district. flip it ortho westchester, 90% plus of the vote coming from this part of the district. far more votes here and far less share of the vote, expected vote is in westchester county and you can see the trend established. latimer with over a third of the vote in with 30 point advantage, 30 plus point advantage over bowman in westchester county. to put this in perspective, that 2022 primary when bowman won and got over 50% districtwide, what did he get

in westchester county in the '22 primary exit 52% of the vote, tonight he is running 35. looking at the town by town results in westchester and you can see significant drop-offs for bowman from where he was in 2022. you can see the dynamic, 2022 on paper for bowman, before the controversies of the last years, 2022 was a warning sign for bowman, he barely got the majority in westchester county, the vast majority of his district. he could not afford coming into 2024 to slip much from those levels. we are seeing again at the town by town level, significant slippage so far for bowman. more vote to come in, it would take a big change for bowman, he would have to dramatically tighten this. again, there is no indication, early vote from every city in town in new rochelle and it is

consistent. another batch came in as i was speaking in westchester county so we can update again and look at the districtwide totals. there it is, we saw when we first came on, bowman had gotten that batch of the bronx, brought him under 10, we got another batch from westchester county, the latimer vote lead is back to 10. a lot more to come out of westchester than to come out of the bronx. if you're the latimer campaign, you feel really good at what you're looking at right now and if you're the bowman campaign, these, so far, are not the numbers you are looking for. one other quick note to tell you, there is a big primary getting a lot of national attention on the republican side in colorado. a minute ago, nbc characterized the race and declared lauren boebert, who moved from the third congressional district in colorado, where she had a very big scare in 2022, to the fourth congressional district on the eastern side of the state, opensea., boebert has won the republican primary, colorado is a state that is all mail-in voting, 85% of the vote

counted within 20 minutes of the polls closing in colorado. emphatic victory for lauren boebert, benefited from very divided opposition. her opponent did not coalesce, unite find a single alternative, 44% of the vote amounts to landslide for boebert in colorado. >> lauren boebert won re- election to the colorado third district by 546 votes, which may have something why she moved to colorado's fourth district. i want to say on the bowman question, i think national democrats are looking at that carefully given the fact there is a lot of debate inside the democratic caucus about the position to take on israel and the westchester bronx divide on the issue is significant. i think there's a lot of question about how democrats calibrate their message. bowman is seen as the canary in the coal mine help critical he has been of israel and criticism of the war in gaza generally.

>> absolutely. one note on this, the district did change a little between the 2022 primary and tonight. new york had one of these complicated legal cases around easter stripping the change occurred in the bronx district, bowman space. that is as much as i could zoom in. >> we have a map of how the district changed. >> put it on. >> the black line represents the current district, greater share county, 2020 had a greater share of the bronx. >> in 2022, the last time bowman ran, putting comparisons on the board, northern part of westchester already in the district. from 2022 until tonight, one change, wakefield, the wakefield section of the bronx, large caribbean population that previously was in the district, that was taken out and replaced with this part of the bronx, very small geographic area,

40,000 people called co-op city. co-op city has a majority black population. one of the interesting things is, the population is older. far more senior citizens in this section of the bronx put in than was taken out. talk about bowman, sort of calibrated his message in many ways, drawn a lot of support from younger voters. it is a majority black area, he has done very well in majority black areas and co-op city tonight, we are seeing a bit of slippage from 2022. you wonder, does the fact it is older demographic compared to where he was before in the bronx, is that a factor here? >> there will be a lot of parsing of data, america's sweetheart, steve kornacki, always great to see you. still to come, more with the hosts of the podcast pod save america. what america has to do to win a functioning democracy. the trunk overseeing trump criminal prosecution of the classified documents held a closed-door hearing today that

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it has been nearly an hour since the polls close in new york's primary races tonight and river projected winner in the most extensive house primary race in american history were westchester county executive george latimer has been attempting to unseat incumbent congressman and progressive

squad member jamaal bowman. nbc news can project george latimer as the projected winner. what can you tell us about the numbers and how they changed since we talked to you about a second ago? >> talking about the basic divide in the district between much smaller in terms of population slice of the bronx in it, where jamaal bowman is getting 84% of the vote. the vast majority of the district is up here in westchester county, suburbs of new york city, small studies -- cities are here. george latimer, the county executive, a third of the vote in, latimer running very well overall in the county and bowman falling well short of numbers he reached in this county in the 2022 primary. basically what happened the last five minutes since i was on, is this, in westchester if you recall, 35 or 40% of the vote and half of the vote in

westchester county and what i have seen and what you can see here if you're watching closely the last segment, the numbers have not changed. this is locking in, the latimer advantage over bowman. it is spread out geographically, it is a consistent pattern basically everywhere. everywhere in the district, bowman is running short, well short double-digit support in many cases of where he fared in the 2022 primary care it is consistent enough to a vote in, frankly enough vote left given the trend, expect latimer to add to his margin as more westchester comes in, look at the district, bowman not getting many more votes out of the bronx, latimer is out of westchester county. latimer is ahead by 5000 votes, 10 points districtwide. as we inch over the 50% mark districtwide, nbc projects george latimer has defeated incumbent representative jamaal bowman. it will make bowman the third house member to lose a primary pending the bob good result in virginia, the third house member to lose a primary this

cycle. >> i'm reminded of bowman's polling deficit going into the 2020 election where he was running behind eliot engel, longtime congressman, by 19 points and went on to defeat him by 14 points. i think bowman was hoping for a similar outcome tonight. he was holding decidedly behind latimer, i think 17 points in some polls, this is a turnout election. look at the amount of money spent on this race, the national import assigned to it, $14 million, $25 million overall, it is a race unlike any other. >> absolutely, the division of this district, the money coming from a huge story, the fact the cost of the race and the question of the impact, before the money was spent in the race, bowman's problems were clear. in 2022, did not have a single primary opponent. if you look on paper, easy time surviving his primary in 2022,

you out of all of the non- bowman candidates in the '22 primary, he won 55-45 which is hardly resounding. westchester portion of the district, last time around, 52- 48, bowman. there are towns in westchester where he got 30%, 35%, clear vinyl ability in westchester county for bowman that predated the cycle that extended from the last one. you look at the controversy and everything going into the cycle and it only amplified that. the vulnerability was clear for bowman. everything he has been involved in here in terms of controversy, almost logical westchester where he was already in serious trouble, it would get worse. >> i think like we said the last block, mike kretz tried to figure out the international message in and around israel

and the war in gaza where the death toll is staggering and appalling. the national party has a lot of reconciliation to do in what they want their position to be, netanyahu coming for joint session of congress, that will put democrats in uncomfortable position. the specter of bowman travis loss has applications for people inside and outside of congress in terms of how the party talks about it. >> there's the question of the issue itself, the question of the new breed of member of congress that seems to gravitate toward social media, provocative antics on social media. i think he might've been part of that as well, question of how that goes over with voters in any congressional district, the whole issue of pulling the fire alarm, did that alone cause him to look at bowman, i'm not so sure this should be our representatives in congress a lot of things were going on besides the obvious issue you are describing, it is a huge one, the effort that went in nationally into the race is something you have not seen

anywhere else. it is a fascinating story because if you look inside the numbers a couple years ago, you could see trouble coming for jamaal bowman. frankly, he does have eight base in the district, the overwhelming bowman base is such a small part of the district in terms of the population balance. real problem in westchester and there was no way, once the problem got worse, there was no way out of the bronx he would get enough votes to overcome that. >> steve kornacki, always great to hear your analysis and get the updates. we appreciate your time this evening of breaking news, my friend. thanks for hanging with us. still to come, the judge aileen cannon held a closed- door hearing in the classified documents case and that hearing could have a huge impact on what happens next. more on that coming up. k toda get your free gutter inspection on your schedule

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for the third straight day today, the federal judge everything donald trump's classified documents case, judge aileen cannon, held another pretrial hearing that could've better been handled by email. trump's wanted key evidence, more than 100 classified documents found at mar-a-lago to be thrown out on the basis the fbi search warrant was too broad and thereby improper. nbc news reports judge cannon repeated the question that argument suggesting it may not pass muster with her. that was not the only request judge cannon heard today. in a separate session this

morning, when behind closed doors, trump's lawyers argued the special counsel's office should not have access to transcripts of voice memos made by trump's former lawyer. those memos are key evidence in the prosecution's case for obstruction of justice. joining me is msnbc legal analyst in host of podcast, strict scrutiny. melissa, thank you for joining me. before we get to the closed- door, i want your thoughts on why judge cannon is having all these hearings for semi ridiculous concerns and why she is not using the help available to her to sift through this? >> hard to say what her mind- set is, some have suggested the hearings are surveying education for her on some of the issues like whether or not special counsel is permitted under the constitution, although that question seems to have been asked and answered

many times over. >> resolved. >> yes. it is unusual that she has at her disposal the council a very seasoned magistrate judges. these are lower federal court judges, article one judges, not article three, they are there and handle a lot of the matters that come before the district court. in most cases, i was district court clerk, our district judge worked very close to the magistrate to whom he was assigned. there's a symbiotic relationship in many cases between the district court between the district judge and magistrate judge. they handle pretrial hearings, certain kinds of things that don't necessarily go to the district court judge. in this case, the particular magistrate judge associated with judge cannon and the case is also the same person who granted the government's request for search warrant. it may be the case that he is a little too close. >> kind of awkward. but she could use him another pretrial -- >> she could be feeding a lot of these things to him.

decisions or lack of decisions being made, the lack of a trial date, a lot of general angst that should happen in the course of managing a case to trial have not happened and a lot of it can be up to the fact that the judge is a relatively new judge and does not have a lot of experience in cases like this one involving a high profile defendant. >> now to the closed door hearing this morning, she is revisiting this topic of whether these key transcripts from trump's lawyer better a central part of the case, nt whether or not they can be admitted as evidence in this case. they were approved for use in a different hearing and she has the opportunity in front of her to throw them out if she agrees with trumps defense and i am wondering how devastating you think that would be for the

special counsel. >> it is obviously devastating for the case, so much of this goes to the state of mind. they are key pieces of evidence. it is unusual i think to revisit or second-guess another colleague, even one in another district although some may argue what happens in a grand ap jury proceeding is different from what would happen in a trial. again i come back to, this is a situation where the judge is opening herself up to claims that some of this is performative or unnecessary, it could suggest that she lacks experience or she is playing into this defendant's penchant for delaying. >> speaking of plain into the defendant's penchant for delaying, the supreme court,

three days of decisions coming down this week and i wonder what your expectation is. are we getting for blockbuster decisions every day? the number of decisions that have yet to be ruled upon remain public and the number of days left in the calendar, we have never seen anything like this. >> during the pandemic we did go beyond the typical end of june deadline and a lot of it was because the justices were not going anywhere and i do think now there are places they would go. i think it is likely to have plans and may want to get out of town so we may get a deluge of opinions on the last three days. again i cannot underscore enough for the viewers this will be a academic decision, a decision for the ages according to the justice and it is taking them ages to write and it is one i will likely teach in constitutional law. with regard to this defendant

and whether or not he will be held accountable for the charges, that ship has sailed. it is unlikely that case will go to trial. it would require a lot to get it to trial given the delays that were the courts own doing. >> i am old enough to remember a lot of smart people thought they would not take up the case. >> i always said they would. >> you are even smarter than the smart people i talked to. now they are all eating their words. it is always great to see you. thank you for your time. after the break something special is coming up and it involves eating pasta with rachel maddow. at least i think it is pasta. that is next. that is next. to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature. iberogast.

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before we leave you, we have a quick update for everyone, on saturday, september 7 you can join me and the msnbc family in democracy 2024, our fan event that is happening in brooklyn, all across the river here. there will be riveting conversations about the most pressing issues of our time and there will be a sit down dinner where you can get the inside scoop on this critical moment on our democracy and you can see of chris hayes prefers chicken or fish. scan the qr code on the screen to get your ticket today. good evening jonathan. >> you will be in brooklyn, i am he