curtain, $1.99? >> it is absurd. for them to raise these arguments, on the papers, there is no facts. what defense is saying, we want to bring in the agents. how can we say it's a gracious unless we talk to them. it feels the narrative which is fbi bad. fbi out to kill donald trump. >> this is become the fbi setting up donald trump and it's the sole right wing conspiracy theory. there's the bathroom one. that such a beautiful shot. such a great room. boxes outside. kristy greenberg, they want to get the fbi folks but it is all more delay. kristy greenberg, thank you. that is all in. alex wagner tonight starts right now. right now. now with alex wagner we missed you. >> it's good to be back.

listen, i'm quite obsessed with the photos at mar-a-lago as you are, and i do think it's worth pointing out there's an elaborate sort of chandelier-like wall sconce in the bathroom where there's also am i to believe a tension -- >> a tension rod shower curt >> i mean high, low. >> that is the highest of the low.th that is my favorite detail the tension shower rod. you have to say having that much reading material in the bathroom is relatable. >> not going to commentro on th. thank you, my friend. great toan see you again. so there have y been a lot politicized debates over the years and a lot ofli them have featured joe biden. in 2012 and 2020 and we're not

evenre counting 2024 yet. if you had to pick one moment where joe biden was able to beat back his critics and win the moment in as few words as possible, it would probably be this one. >> an editorial in the los angelesed times said, in additi to his uncontrolled verbosity, biden is a gaff machine. can you reassure voters in this country you would have the discipline you would need on the world stage, senator? >> yes. >> thank you, senator bider. >> that was joese biden during e 2008 democratic presidential primaryoc debates. and while moments like that did not win biden the democratic nomination, we later learned his performance on stage wiz a real factor in why barack obama chose joe biden to be his running mate. ites also a reminder that biden can beer a very effective debat

when he is calm and he's in control. by contrast, there's his opponent, donald trump. not a person who would ever willingly give up 28 seconds of a 30-second time allotment to make a point. trump as we saw in the 2016 and 2020 debates is not a creature of restraint or even strategy, per se. today trump gave an interview the washington examiner where he talked about the upcoming debate and told his interviewer he thinks debate sg an attitude more than anything else. whichn makes sense if you've er seen donald trump in an debate. in that same interview trump was asked whether or not his attitude had ever failed him. this is the reporter. a lot of people thought in the firstof debate with biden you we somewhat overamped, that you just went after him too much. trump, that i interrupted him? yeah, reporter, after a short

pause trump interrupted p conceding, yes, there were too many.we even donald trump was t aware a his attitude can hurt him on the debate stage especially when he'sta over-amped. >> vote now. let people know. >> why wouldn't you answer that question? >>ha the question is -- the question is. will you shut up, man? >> trump's attitude problems do not end with his treatment of his opponents. trump is also at his worst when he's interrupting the moderators. >> i'm going to give you a minute to answer, sir. you have repeatedly. no, you've been talking. >> you made a statement. i would like to -- >> youwo know, if you want to switch seats we can do that. >> so being over-amped with

opponents not good, talking over the moderator, also not good. but trump is also at his worst when he's on the defensive as of this moment with senator marco rubio during the primary debates during 2016. >> and i have to say this, i have to say this he's hit my hands. nobody's ever hit my hands. look at my ndhands, are they sml hands? and he referred to my hands if they're small, something else must be small. i guarantee you there's no, i guarantee you. >> thought thatte effective and also really gross. as debates have shown us trump is defensive about a lot of things andut not just his undersized hands but also his cozy a relationship with certai autocrats. >> look, from everything i see has no respect for this person. >> well, that's because he'd rather have aon puppet as

president of the united states. >> not puppet. you're the puppet. >> and it's pretty clear. >> not' puppet. it's like watching someone pour water into a battery pack. now, as bad as the puppet was -- >> do you make the same commitment you'll absolutely accept the result of this election? >> i will look at it at the time. i'm nott looking at anything n. i'm look at at the time? what i'm saying i'll tell you at the time. i'll keep you in suspense. >> trump's most infamous moment in any debate was when he was forced to respond to a question about his relationship with white supremacists and offered notac a condemnation but a callo arms. >> are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and

militia groups. >> what do you want to kill them? give me a name? >> proud boys. >> proud boys, stand back and standby. >> so, okay, if you're the biden campaign right now reviewing trump's worst debate moments, it is clear there's aba lot to wor with. that is if you want to spend the whole debate teasing out the unsecure and undisciplined and destructive side of donald trump. but what about joe biden himself? how much of this debate has he spent on his not insignificant accomplishments as president? does biden talk about shepherding the biggest investments in climate and generation, e in a or the long list of actions he's taken on behalf of every day americans like working on junk fees or the strong economy he's overseeing, which by the way the world bank recently said is so strong that it actually bolstered the entire world economy after a global pandemic.

how much time should president biden spend focusing on all of that, and how much should he spend highlighting the autocrat admiring, white supremacist, election denier with small hands that likes to interrupt all the time? >> that is really the question. >> nois puppet. you're the puppet. >> joining me now are co-hosts of "pod save america," there the hit podcast together, with john levt, who's not here this evening. you can bake brownies in ten democracies. before we get to the book, which is essential reading in this particular moment, i do want to talk about you guys are silent observers of politics. you understand the tratagy that goes behind the scenes in terms

of prepping presidents or leaders for important moments, and i do wonder as we barrel towards this debate on thursday, when you think about the sort of essential question biden is faced with. how much to run on his own record, how much to highlight what he's t done, how much to p trump on defense? whattr do you think the break dn is, and how do you think of it strategically? >> i think the president has to frame his accomplishments as down payments of what he wants to continue for the next four years. another slogan they use is finish the job. smart because if people aren't feeling the effects of the legislation he's passed yet, you don't want to seem like you're talking past people. i think as quickly as he can pivot to the choice in the election. insulin is $35 now for seniors. i wanted to make it $35 for everyone. republicans blocked it, donald trump is against it.

if you give donald trump another four years he's going to take away you are health care. >> do you think as a practical matter, tommy, it's possible to really give those details in the format of a debate, which i think we all agree is like a mud wrestling match we decided serves some utility in american politics. maybe it does. the biden campaign clearly thinks it does because they wanted this debate. does he have to choose? ical he t do both as john is suggesting? >> i think john is saying the mistake is making this a ref lendm about your accomplishments. wem don't know if jake tapper going to hog tie him when he starts screaming. >> i think no. when i hear the phrase jake tapper and hog tying they don't go together. >> here's what i've done, here's what i'm fighting for, here's why this guy is fighting for his

rich donors and friends and keep his friends out of prison. >> good we could go blow-by-blow in g terms of the issues they'r likely to tackle. first and foremost, trump has been talking about the border. he's been talking about migrant ufc fights over the weekend. immigration is something republicans feel they haven democrats in the corner on. if you're biden and you're talking to him behind the scenes at the debate, what is the strategy forat talking about th broken deal trump ruined on the border o and also defending the policy he just launched? >> yeah, i think if it comes to the border first, biden can easily say, look, and just took an executive action on the border and i had to do that because we have a deal that would have been h better. and there was a bipartisan deal in congress. this guy told republicans to kill the deal because he wanted an issueea to run on because fo him it's all about politics, and i just made sure families can stay together especially undocumented spouses of american

citizens who have been in this country for ten years. and the difference is he ripped families apart. >> i feel like child separations over and over again is the rejoineder any democrat needs to useer and specifically this democrat, right? >> absolutely. and also he needs to recognizes ane lot of feel there's somethi wrong with the border and both parties they're concerned about disorder andrt chaos at the borr and they want a system that works. >> i guess one of the things i worry about as we talk about holding together the democratic coalition, though, is like -- and this is a careful balance, right? acknowledging the chaosla at th border while also not t dehumanizing the people looking for a better tomorrow who in many ways form the backbone of the american economy. i wonder if you think there's any peril in playing too much i guess i'll call it hardball on migrants coming over the border.

>> i've been spending with my podcasts a lot m of time with focus groups. a lot of people see the border as separate from immigration including latino voters. and a lot the border issue is an issue of public safety. they're saying new arrivals but we want it to be orderly, we need a border, but people been in this country for years who may be undocumented people are much more welcoming of those. i thinklc you have to separate what's going on with the border. we don't want chaos.ao but if you're been here for years and you've been working hard and law-abiding and you don't have a criminal record we want you in this country. >> separating the two and making it a distinction, even though in theory i'll just point out the people coming over and undocumented now and working to support the economy in ten years could be the same people, but i digress. on abortion, tommy, i know you

guys have talked about this on "pod save america" this week, but ertrump's going to push thi to the states as he has repeatedly when asked what his policy on abortion is. and my question is both for democrats and republicans in swing states who feel like, okay, f it's really bad in a ple like llalabama, it's bad in the deep south, but is it really going to get bad in my state? how do ucreate a sense of urgency if you're joe biden in this election? >> they are going to push for a federal abortion ban, full stop it's going to happen. they're going to push for limits on p ivf. they're talking about getting rid ofe contraception. there's a radical right-wing base that comeswi along with donald trump. there's a bunchco of weirdos yo don't want in your bedroom and i think he hasur to tell that broader story because there's a lot of people who don't view trump aser someone who they thi is socially conservative but in

fact his entire party is. >> well, if he's not socially conservative it's about making it seemns he doesn't care about what happens to families who are trying to exercise control over bodily autonomy. >> do you want to trust the guy who last time said abortion's not on the ballot the last time they debated? and now we have abortion bans. one in three women in the children live under abortion bans? you're going tor trust this gu when all the people he wants to staff his administration with are pushing very hard for him to take action on his own to ban birth control and abortion across the country? like i don't think people want to trust that. >> do you think the support -- we're in a week where we're waiting for several landmark decision. traditionally the supreme court

gets whether it's conservatives or democrats who understand the dynamics of the stcourt, do you think it carries more weight in a moment likees this? we're going to have more decisions going into this debate. >> i think you have a moment where a lot ofde people are payg to this debate and you can make that case in a moment and seize on that opportunity. the opportunity donald trump will have, the name ofa the right-wing republican he can find to the court for the next four years is completely stacked againstco us. yeah, i do think it's an important case to make. it's a weird position for an institutionalist like biden to bring up any ofit the nefarious extracurricular activities oaf people like sam alito and clarence thomas, but certainly the sort of partisan make-up of the bench is fair game if you're talking about what happens in the next four years.

tom -- tommy, john and tommy, the economy, right? this is the most i think tricky terrain for biden. this goes back to your first answer where the fight -- what is it the work continues? >> finish the job. >> finish the job. >> it's f the patriots. >> sure. the amount of economic populism biden has put into action whether it's capping insulin prices, taking on large corporations, capping junk fees, being the first president to walk the picket line, i do wonder whether he's going to be really be able to take about any of that tonight because so much of his posture already feels like it's on the back foot, right, with trump and the inflation message resonates to an eerie degree among the american public. >> yeah, and that's why i think

he can't spend a ton of time talking about what he's accomplished. he can say when i got into officehe inflation spiked all or the world and come down faster than anywhere else. people were dealing with high costs before the pandemic. people have been dealing with highpe costs for decades. right now housing is too expensive and health care is to expensive. so i am working every single day to bring those costs down. last time donald trump was in office he gave a corporate tax cut to rich people. wants to do another one. do we think that's going to be the best move for the middle class in this country sph. >> that's got to be frustrating for a president. ron klain going out there and saying stop talking about g bridges, what is it? biden spending too much time praising bridges being built instead of b connecting with voters. i'm sure ron klain is telling joe biden that right now. he's helping with debate prep. >> barack obama in the first prep of the debate instead of

hitting mittns romney on the ta plan, which the moderator set him up to do he talked ibt achievements at the top and the race toen education. and i remember watching the clip all backstage were like, oh, and ron told him be careful about doing that. >> because that's he's been spending his time on and it matters. there's this famous piece of sound of ronald reagan in 1984 addressing his age. can we play it? >> i will not make age an issue of thisge campaign.hi i'm not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience. >> first of all, the way back machine, that was it. that would shutdown the age speculation. i do wonder how you think he should broach it and whether he should go on offense about it

first. >> it is that an okay zinger about a literal trained actor shutdown a debate about his age. >> we continue to play it to this day. >> i think it's incredible. but biden, it's going to be more how he looks,ets his energy, how he sounds, whether he's punchy, whether he finishes his thoughts instead of cutting himself off. a lot of this is performance. it's feeder camp for politicians, and hopefully they're practicing these things and going to get him up and energized. >> theater camp for politicians sounds like a place i never, ever want to go. but don't leave. i want to hear more about things like that after our break, john and tommy. we have a lot to talk about. stick with me.st the book is called "democracy or else." how to bake a brownie, i ad-libbedow there. more with the hosts coming up. before that, we'll have the latestth on some key primaries. steve kornacki is standing by at

the big i board. we're going to talk about the races tonight that have significant consequences forat e democratic party. that's right after the break. democratic party that's right after the break

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this is in my view one of the most important elections in modern american history. >> the specific race that senator bernie sanders is talking about there is in new york's 16th congressional district where democrat jamal

bowman faces george latimer. almost $25 million have been spent in this primary. apac has shelled out more than $14 million in ads criticizing congressman beauman's position over the war in gaza. congressman bowman spoke out against israel's actions in that conflict while mr. latimer refused to criticize prime minister benjamin netanyahu. and that refusal places him to the right of president joe biden and senator chuck schumer. joining me now steve kornacki. great to see you. what can you tell us about this breaking news tonight? >> we've got a lot of returns now in the 16th district of new york. you see george latimer with a about a 13-point advantage over

jamaal bowman. it comes in a touch under 10 points, about 9.5. what happened as we came on the air here is we got a bigger chunk of the bronx county portion of this district. you can see here the district is split between a small share in the bronx, one of the burrows of new york city and the rest is westchester suburbs, the suburbs. you can see bronx city about three quarters of the expected vote is in. this is we know jamaal bowman's big core district. when he ran in 2022 he got several primary challengers last time around in 2022 and he got 91% of the vote in the bronx part of the district. he's running about 83.5 right now. when you get a big batch in it's going to boost bowman's numbers district wide, but when you look within the bronx 83.6 is probably not where he wants to

be. again, we got 91%% here. he had some challengers in 202022 and didn't get much more district wide in 2022, so he wants to be very close to that 91 in the bronx, running 83.5, and a lot of that is in for the bronx county and let's flip it to westchester. probably 90% of the vote is going to come from this part of the district. the there's far more votes here and far less share of the vote. the expected vote is in in westchester county, and you can see the trend established here. latimer just a third of the vote now in with a 30-point advantage, 30 plus point advantage over bowman in westchester county. again, put this in perspective in that 2022 primary when bowman won and got just over 50% district wide, what did he get in westchester county in the 2022 primary, he got 52% of the vote out of westchester. tonight he's running 35 and

starting to look at the town by town results in westchester, and you're seeing pretty significant drop offs for bowman and you can see the dynamic here. 2022 on paper before bowman 2022 was kind of a warning sign for bowman. again, he barely got a majority in westchester county, which is the vast majority of his district, so he couldn't afford coming into 2024 to slip much from those levels, and we're seeing again at the town by town level here pretty significant slippage so far for bowman. again, more vote to come in. it would take a pretty big change for bowman. he'd have to really dramatically tighten this, and there's no indication here. we've got every vote from every city and town in new rochelle, and it's pretty consistent. we can update again and look at the district wide totals, and there it is. you saw when we first came on here bowman had just gotten that

batch of the bronx inch it brought him under ten. latimer's vote, his lead now basically back to ten, and again a lot more to come out of westchester than to come out of the bronx. if you're the latimer campaign you're probably feeling really good at what you're looking at right now, and if you're the bowman campaign these so far are not the numbers you're looking for. there was a big primary focus and getting a lot of national attention in colorado. just a minute ago nbc characterized this race and declared that lauren boebert opened a seat here. boebert has won that republican primary. colorado is a state basically all mail in voting. 85% of the vote counted. that's about 20% of the polls closed in colorado and emphatic for beau rt where her opponents

did not coalesce, did not unite behind a single alternative. 44% of the vote amounts to a landslide for boebert in colorado. >> lauren boebert won an election by 536 votes. i just want to say, though, on the bowman question i think national democrats, steve, are looking at that carefully given the fact that, you know, there is a lot of debate inside the democratic caucus about the position to take on israel and the westchester bronx debide on the issue is significant. and i think there's a lot of question about how democrats calibrate their message. bowman is seen in some ways as the canary in the coal mine given how vocal he is and the criticism of israel and the criticism of the war in gaza generally. >> absolutely, and one note on this, too, is the district did change just a little between the 2022 primary, and tonight new

york had one of the complicated cases around redistricting. the change occurred in the portion of the bronx district that we're saying is bowman's base. >> we actually have, steve, a map of how the district has changed. the black line represents the current district which has a greater share. >> in between in 2022 the last time bowman ran that northern part of west virginia was already in the district. from 2022 until tonight there's one change, and wakefield -- the wakefield section of the bronx, there's a large caribbean population there that previously was in the district. that was taken out, and it was replaced with this part of the bronx, just a very small geographic here. it's a small co-op city. i think one of the interesting thing is the population is older. there's far more senior citizens

in a section of the bronx that was put in than was taken out. and you talk about bowman who has sort of calibrated his message, in many ways drawn a lot of support from younger voters. it is a majority black area. he's done very will in majority black areas and is doing very well in co-op city tonight. we've seen slippage there, and you wonder if it's an older demographic compared to where he was before in the bronx. is that a factor here? >> well, there's going to be a lot of parsing of the data. america's sweetheart, steve kornacki, always great to see you. still to come more with the hosts of "pod save america," what democrats need to do to win in november, and what happens after that if we want to save our democracy. the judge overseeing trump's prosecution over classified documents held a closed door hearing today. we'll explain next. door hearing today. we'll explain next

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sounded like a constant train whistle i couldn't escape. then i started taking lipo flavonoid. with 60 years of clinical experience, it's the number one doctor recommended brand for ear ringing. and now i'm finally free. take back control with lipo flavonoid. it has been nearly an hour since the poll closed in new york's primary races tonight, and already we have a projected winner in the most expensive house primary race in american history where westchester executive george latimer has been attempting to unseat congressman and progressive squad member jamaal bowman. nbc news can now project george latimer at the projected winner.

steve, what can you tell us about the numbers and how they may have changed just a second ago? >> we were just talking about the basic divide in terms of the much smaller slice of population of the bronx that's in it. that's where jamaal bowman is getting about 85% of the votes right now. wester chester county, suburbs of new york city, and this is where george latimer is the county executive. we said with a third of the vote in, latimer was running very well in the county and bowman was falling far short of numbers he had reached in this county in the 2022 primary. basically what happened in the last five minutes since i was on was this, in westchester if you'll recall we only had about 35% to 40% of the vote and now about half of the vote is in westchester county. what we can see here if you were watching closely in the last segment these numbers haven't changed. this is locking in right now, this latimer advantage over

bowman. it's spread out geographically here, it's a consistent pattern basically everywhere in this district bowman is running well short, double digit support short in many cases of where he fared in the 2022 primary. there's enough vote in and frankly enough vote left now given this trend you can expect latimer to add to his trend you can look at the district and say bowman is not getting much votes out of the bronx, latimer is in westchester county. latimer is almost 10 points ahead district wide, and now nbc projects george latimer has defeated incumbent representative jamaal bowman. it will make bowman the third house member to lose the primary, the third house member to lose the primary this cycle. >> steve, i'm reminded of bowman's polling deficit going into the 2020 election where he was running behind elliot engel,

the long time congressman by 19 points and wept onto defeat engel by i think 14 pointsmism i think bowman was hoping for a similar outcome for tonight, right? he was polling decidedly behind latimer and saying this was a turnout election. you look at the amount of money spent in this race, the national import assigned to it. $14 million from apac, $24 million overall. it's a race unlike any other. >> no, absolutely. and again, the dwigsz in this district there's that money that's coming in. obviously it's a huge story here. the cost of this race and the question of what impact. no, i would say before the money was spent in this race, bowman's problems were clear here. as i said in 2022 he didn't have a single primary opponent. soap if you look on paper bowman had a pretty easy time surviving his primary in the 2022. in the '22 primary bowman won

this district about 55-45, which is hardly resounding. and again in the westchester portion of the district last time around it was 52-48 bowman. there were some towns in westchester he got 30%, 25% of the vote. there was a clear vulnerability in westchester county for bowman that really predated this cycle that extended from the last one. you look at all the controversies and everything going into this cycle and i think it amplified that. the vulnerability was clear for bowman. and i think everything he's been involved in here in terms of controversy, it's almost logical that in westchester where he was already in some serious trouble, it would just get worse for him. >> look, i think there are like we said in the last block there are a laults of democrats trying to figure out what is the national message in and around israel and the war in gaza, where the death toll is just staggering and appalling. but the national party has a lot of reconciliation to do in terms

of what it wants its position to be. netanyahu is coming from a joint session of congress. that's going to put democrats in an oncomfortable position. the specter of bowman's loss is going to have implications for people inside of congress and outside of congress in term of how people talk about it. >> there's the question of the issue itself and the new breed of members of congress that gravitates towards social media, some provocative antics on social media. i think he may have been part of that as well. a question how that goes over with voters. obviously the issue of the pulling the fire alarm does that alone cause bowman to say i'm not sure this should be our representative in congress. a lot of things are going on here besides obviously the issue there is a huge one and the effort that went on nationally in this race is something you haven't really seen anywhere else. it's a fascinating story here because if you looked inside these numbers a couple years

ago, you could see trouble coming from jamaal bowman, and frankly he does have a base in the district. but, again, that overwhelming bowman base is such a small part of the district in terms of the population balance, he had a real problem in westchester and there was no way -- once that problem got worse there was no way he was going to get enough votes to overcome that. >> steve kornacki, it's always great to hear your analysis and we appreciate your time for this evening breaking news. still to come the judge aileen cannon today held a closed door hearing in the classified documents case, and that hearing could have a huge impact on what's coming next. more on that coming up. pact on t more on that coming up

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for the third straight day today, the federal judge overseeing donald trump's classified documents case, judge aileen cannon held another pretrial hearing that probably could have been better handled by e-mail. trump's lawyers wanted key evidence more than 100 classified documents found at mar-a-lago to be thrown out on the basis the fbi's search warrant was too broad and thereby improper. nbc news reports that judge cannon repeatedly questioned that argument suggesting it may not pass muster with her, but that was not the only request judge cannon heard today. in a separate session this morning one behind closed doors, trump's lawyers argued the special counsel's office should not have access to transcripts of voice memos made by trump's

former lawyer, evan corcoran. now, remember those memos are key evidence in the prosecution's case for obstruction of justice. joining me now is melissa, co-host of the podcast strict scrutiny. before we talk about the closed door hearing, i want to get your thoughts on why judge cannon is having all these hearings for semiridiculous concerns and why she's not using the help available to her to sift through all of this. >> so hard to say what exactly her mind-set is about this. some are suggesting these are serving as education for her like the special counsel is permitted under the constitution, although that answer seems to have been asked many times, yeah, resolved. it is unusual that she has the

counsel of judges but they're there and they handle a lot of the matters that come before a district court. and so in most cases i was a district court clerk. our district court judge worked very closely with the magistrate to whom he was assigned. so there's a symbiotic relationship in many cases between the district judge the magistrate judge, and they'll handle pretrial hearings, certain kinds of things that don't necessarily need to go to the magistrate judge. in this case the magistrate judge associated with judge cannon in this case is also the same person who granted the government's request for a search warrant, so it may be the case that he's a little too close. >> yeah, kind of awkward. >> yeah, it is a little awkward. >> but she could use him on other pretrial motions. >> certainly. and she could be feeding a lot of these things to him. there's a lot of unorthodox decisions or lack of decisions being made, the fact there hasn't been in a trial date, a

lot of jen drl things happening in managing a trial hasn't happened here, and a lot of that is due to the fact she isn't a district court judge, doesn't have lot of criminal tile experience and doesn't have criminal trial experience like this one involving a very high profile defendant and information and evidence that's going to be highly classified and require certain kinds of protocols. >> now, to the closed door hearing this morning, she's revisiting this topic whether these key transcripts from trump's lawyer that are an essential part of the government's case against trump, whether or not they can be admitted as evidence in this case. those were approved for use in the grand jury hearing by a different judge in d.c., and she has the opportunity in front of her to throw them out if she agrees with trump's defense. i wonder from a legal point of view how devastating you think that would be for the special counsel. >> it's obviously devastating for the special counsel's case. so much of this depends on establishing state of mind and certainly the corcoran tapes can

go to help establish that. they are really key pieces of evidence in the special counsel's case. it's unusual to revisit or second guess another colleague, even one in a another district. although, some might argue that what might happen in a grand jury proceeding is very different than what might happen in a trial or on the way to trial, so there's that. but, again, i come back to this is a situation where judge cannon is opening herself up to claims that some of this is all very performative, maybe even unnecessary. it could suggest she lacks experience, it could suggest she's playing into this defendant's hand for delaying and delaying and delaying. >> speaking of playing into this defendant's penchant for delaying the supreme court, melissa, here we are three days of decisions coming down this week, and i do wonder what your expectation is how long -- are we going to get four blockbuster

decision every day? the number of days left in the calender, i mean we've never seen anything like this. >> well, during the pandemic we did go beyond the typical end of june deadline, and, you know, i think a lot of that was because of justices weren't going anywhere. i do think there are now some places they're likely to head off to. >> like retreats with billionaires. >> fantastico, yes. i think they may have plans and want to get out of town. we may get a deluge of opinions and among them is this immunity decision. i cannot underscore enough for your viewers this is going to be an academic decision. this is a decision for the ages according to justice gorsuch and a decision i will likely teach in constitutional law. but with regard to this defendant and whether or not he's going to be held accountable for these charges, that seems to have -- that ship has sailed. like it's very unlikely that case is going to go to trial.

it would require a lot to get it to this trial at this point given the delays that were the court's own doing, not anything done by the special counsel. >> i'm old to remember when a lot of very smart people thought they wouldn't take up the case and now here we are turning into july. >> i always said they would. >> you are very smarter than the smart people i talked to earlier. melissa murray, great to see you even when it's not the best news. thank you, my friend. after the break something super special is coming up, and it involves eating pasta with rachel maddow. at least, i think it's pasta. that's next. at least, i think it's pasta that's next.

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