possible to get enough aid in while the war is conducted, i guess is my question? >> i think it is very difficult, and the bigger difficulty than just getting the aid in is getting the aid delivered. the kind of last mile access that humanitarians need is very hard to reconcile with at least the way the idf is fighting this war. it wouldn't be impossible, humanitarians and navigate were conditions all the time, most places where we work would be conflicts, almost by definition. what's unique here is the level of obstruction that we have seen from the israeli government since the beginning of the war, and in particular, the conduct of idf forces on the ground, who have routinely targeted, harassed, intimidated humanitarian workers. not every instance of that makes the news, but it is the background noise of what humanitarians have to deal with. >> and you are saying that as someone who heard first-hand these accounts. >> that's right, heard for example that a u.n. official at a checkpoint was targeted by israeli forces and had a red

dot on his chest. >> thank you for joining us. that is all on this wednesday night. good evening, alex. >> thank you for that coverage, chris, and a conversation. you may know him as steve bannon, but on monday, transformer campaign manager and chief white house strategist will become federal inmate number 05635509. having already lost his case in his first appeal, bannon is expected to report to federal prison in connecticut on monday morning. that is unless the supreme court intervenes, which it could do at any moment. today, the department of justice formally urged the high court not to intervene here. and to let mr. bannon face accountability for his actions, but remarkably, the justice department isn't the only group that lobbied the court about steve bannon today. >> mr. speaker, i understand there might be a change in position regarding the house and their stance on the january

6th committee. and it might be regarding steve bannon, and it may have a big impact on his contempt case, tell me what is going on. >> yeah, we are working on filing a brief in his appellate work there in his case. >> today, speaker of the house mike johnson and several other republican members of the house voted to make the formal position of the u.s. house of representatives, the formal position that the january 6th committee did not have the authority to do the work that it did, and that therefore, steve bannon should not have to go to prison. to step back here for some context, remember that the reason steve bannon is headed to prison in the first place is because he refused to comply with the subpoena from the january 6th committee. that is despite clearly knowing a lot about january 6th and the plan to overturn biden's win in congress. just to refresh your memory, here was mr. bannon the day before the attack on the capitol.

>> tomorrow morning. look, what's going to happen, president trump speaks at 11:00, we are going to be live at 10:00, we have got a lot more news and analysis of exactly what is going to go on through the day. i will tell you this, it is not going to happen like you think it is going to happen. okay? it is going to be quite extraordinarily different. and all i can say is strap in. the war room, a posse, you have made this happen, and tomorrow, it is game day. >> strapped in, tomorrow it is game day. you might think that define congress would not be something members of congress would support. you might think that helping a potentially key witness refused to cooperate in an investigation into the gravest attack on congress since the war of 1812, that that would be maybe an advisable for the speaker of the house. but the republican leader of the house isn't just doing that, he is boasting about it on national television.

and today, we may have gotten a clue as to why. today, the washington post and george mason university are out with new polling that asked voters in six key swing states who they trusted more when it came to protecting our democracy. joe biden or donald trump? and somehow, donald trump came out on top. 44% of voters in the six swing states trust trump over biden to protect democracy. in arizona, michigan, nevada, pennsylvania, wisconsin, and georgia, 44% of voters trust donald trump. the man who incited the attack on the capitol, the man who calls the january 6th rioters hostages, and more to the point, the man who tried to subvert democracy and steal our last presidential election by force. i mean, trump lies about the last election so much to this day that last night, when he phoned into the conservative channel newsmax and started bragging about winning the most

votes, the network, newsmax, scrambled to run a banner that read: please note, newsmax accepts the 2020 election results as legal and final. noted, newsmax. that is not necessarily because newsmax cares about the truth, but maybe because newsmax is being sued by multiple voting machine companies for defamation in and around the 2020 election. but somehow, somehow, more voters in the swing states that will likely decide the selection trust donald trump over joe biden when it comes to defending our democracy. that poll is confounding. but it also highlights a dark reality, and one that we have to wrestle with to understand what is really happening in our nation's politics right now. the big lie is working. not everywhere and not all the time, but donald trump and his republican boosters in congress and the right-wing media, they

have all successfully sold a sizable portion of the american public not just on the lie that the 2020 election was rigged, but that people like donald trump and steve bannon are victims. and that they, trump and bannon, are the defenders of freedom, fighting against an unseen fascist cabal. as preposterous as it may seem, that lie, based on grievance rather than the actual truth, well, that lie really seems to have found an audience. >> and i have the wounds all over my body. if i took this shirt off, you would see a beautiful, beautiful person, but you would see wounds all over, all over me. i have taken a lot of wounds, i can tell you. more than i suspect any president ever. >> [ cheers and applause ] >> not only is trump

fundraising off of this by printing his mug shot on t- shirts and mugs, he is claiming in his fundraising pitches that when he had his mug shot taken in fulton county, georgia, he was tortured in the jail. now, if you live on earth one, as i do, it is almost impossible to take trump's martyr act serious. he was president of the united states, he tried to steal an election, and he is getting special treatment in courtrooms across this country, including and maybe especially in the highest court of the land, where by the way, the court has still not ruled on whether or not donald trump has absolute presidential immunity and can basically do anything he wants. but if you live on earth 2, if the majority of the information you are receiving is either from right-wing media or from donald trump or his allies and their social media feeds, well then, the lives really seem to be sticking. but we are now less than 24 hours from one of the very few

times before november where the people of earth 1 and the people of earth 2 will see the very same thing at the same time. tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m. eastern, president biden and donald trump will face off in a televised debate that will be hosted by cnn, but will also be simulcast on fox news and abc and nbc and c-span and of course, right here on msnbc, was a bunch of other places. basically, if you turn on a television tomorrow at 9:00 p.m., the odds are you will see this debate. and according to a new online survey from the associated press, for in 10 american adults say they are going to be watching live. that is almost half the country. so, with this massive opportunity to pierce the bubble of these lies, what does joe biden do? joining me now is georgia democrat senator raphael warnock. senator warnock also serves of

course as the senior pastor at ebenezer baptist church in atlanta. senator warnock, it is great to have you here, i can think of no better person to help understand this moment more, and thank you for joining me. let me just first asked, as someone who understands the state of georgia well, how and why is donald trump able to convince a majority of voters in your state that he is the real defender of democracy, that he is the champion of freedom? >> well, alex, it is great to be here with you, thank you very much. listen, i hail from the great state of georgia, and where the debate will happen tomorrow. i think it is appropriate to remember that it was georgia after all that saved the day, i was on the ballot here in 2021, 105 times, and who would have thought that when the nation was at this critical place, that it would be georgia that

would make the difference, setting its first african american senator and its first jewish senator to the united states senate from a state in the old confederacy, a state in the old jim crow south. we literally gave the country a chance, and i think that at the end of the day, georgia voters are going to do it again, because they see the difference. we will see these polls go up and down between now and november, and you know, forgive me for the scripture, but you asked to talk to the preacher tonight, i still believe, as jesus said, that you shall know the truth, the truth will set you free. [ inaudible ] so, we have to continue to lay out the contrast between these two men, and tomorrow is a critical moment in that discussion. i think as tough as these times are, the thing about this election is that it is a binary choice, and the choice could not be more stark. it is literally between a man who can only think about himself

and is obsessed with himself right now, with all of these criminal charges hanging over him, and a man who has reared literally dedicated his whole life to public service, a noble calling, and i think that our job between now and november is to preach the gospel, which literally means the good news about the work that is being done, and yet the great work that we have to continue to do. >> you know, you bring up the gospel and scripture, and i wonder if we can sort of extract any lessons from that, and i think there is no better person to sort of try and understand the magnetism of trump than you, reverend warnock, reverend senator. i know that you spoke to the new yorker last week about the moral and spiritual battle that the country is in, and this is really a spiritual crisis that america is going through, that has been exacerbated by trumpism, and i don't think it is lost on anybody the way in

which trump sees himself as sort of a savior like figure. he was talking in that sound we heard earlier, if he took his shirt off, you would see the wounds, and he often invokes jesus and his struggles in his campaign. and i wonder what you make of that, but also what you think it speaks to in terms of a deeper yearning that people who follow trump are looking for. >> donald trump is a plague on the american conscience and the american nation. i talked about the fact that when we were in the midst of this terrible once in a century pandemic and we saw donald trump and those around him at work, trying to defy the country, because that's what people like him do, they don't know how to lead, so they tried to divide us. and georgia said an african american man who grew up in public housing, and a jewish man, the son of immigrants, in one fell swoop, i believe that

martin luther king jr. and rabbi heschel were in that moment, giving each other the high five of glory because they marched alongside one another. and i have to admit to you that the next morning, i was feeling great about what georgia had done, and everybody wanted to talk to me about how we had won this election, but that next morning was january 6th. our victory lap was short-lived. we saw a violent assault on our capitol, unlike anything we have seen since the war of 1812, driven by this big lie that you were talking about that election was stolen. but what we have to remember is that behind that big lie is an even bigger lie. what they were really saying is that this new emerging american electorate, multiracial, multi generational, doesn't get to decide the direction of the country. they are trying to take us backwards. joe biden is trying to take us forward, and the choice this november is between the america of january 5th that has a place for kids like me and for

appalachian kids, for kids, and the america of january 6th that sees our neighbors as enemies. and it couldn't be a more stark choice, and i believe that at the end of the day, the people of georgia and the people of this country, there is just enough decency in this country, if we keep pushing and keep laying out the truth, that the truth will prevail. >> you know, you talk about the power of the multiracial, multiethnic coalition that brought you and senator allsop into office. again. and i do wonder whether what you think about the strength and the health of that coalition in your state coming up this november, because the polling shows president biden is slipping among communities of color. i believe the new atlanta journal constitution poll out today shows that among black voters in georgia, 69% of them

are going for biden, 9% for trump, 6% for robert kennedy junior, 12% are undecided. in 2020, exit polls had biden at 88%. if those numbers are right, that is nearly a 20% drop. i wonder, do you believe it? what do you hold to account for it? >> well, as somebody whose name was on the ballot five times in georgia in less than three years, and who preaches every sunday from martin luther king jr.'s pulpit, i think i know a little something about black voters, and i can tell you that black voters are not going to show up and vote for donald trump, not in any big numbers. we will see the polls go up and down between now and november. the truth is most americans really aren't paying much attention until after labor day. so, we will continue to make the case that really, we are talking about the soul of our country. we are, i believe, in a spiritual battle between those who want us to see each other

as enemies, to turn on each other, and the forces in our country that would have us turn toward each other, and build a nation that is strong enough, brought enough in this vision to embrace all of us. it is that nation that gave me a chance, one of 12 children in my family, i am number 11 out of 12, first college graduate. when i got a moment, when i had the chance to speak directly to the president of the united states at one of our caucus meetings, i reminded him of his promise to do student debt cancellation. to his credit, he got it, and with one hand behind his back, he has canceled some $160 billion of student loans, helping some 5 million americans. we hope that by the end of the year, it will be many, many more americans. i can tell you that i have gone in rooms with black people all across the state, and i have

asked them, have you or anybody you know god and student debt cancellation? and i haven't been in a room yet where hands haven't gone up. investments in black colleges and black universities, black wealth is up 60% since before the pandemic. prescription drugs capped to $35 of out-of-pocket cost per month, that is my bill, which the president signed into law. the question is do we want to keep building on that progress? and surely, people are struggling. i think the whole nation is struggling with what i call a low-grade fever after three years of a pandemic, prior to that, 20 years of war. i think there are some days you wake up in the morning and there's just this numb feeling, and the question is, who do you want leading in a time like that? i think we want somebody who has been baptized in his own pain and suffering, has said goodbye to children more than once, has lived a life of service, not a perfect man, but one who has been made better by

struggle and who understands the struggles of ordinary people, that is joe biden. >> senator raphael warnock, it is a pleasure to have you on the program, thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. >> there is much more ahead tonight, including donald trump's narrow list of vice presidential contenders, which features a selection of men who all at one time and said they wanted nothing to do with him. so, who is it going to be? but first today, we got a glimpse of the secret supreme court opinion that justices do not want us to see yet. we are going to get into why precisely it is so controversial with erin carmona, that is next. >> [ music ] repair breath freshener. clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. a new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts.

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with just days to go before the end of the term, the united

states supreme court handed down two rulings mac this morning, and inadvertently, they gave us a sneak peak into a third grade earlier today, reporters at bloomberg law got access to an accidentally posted copy of what appears to be the court's decision on a very consequential abortion case. according to bloomberg, the court is poised to allow pregnant women in idaho to receive abortions in medical emergencies. now, on its face, this sounds like a good decision, but the decision here appears to be based on a technicality, effectively, rather than the actual merits of the case. the justices do not decide whether state-level abortion bans can be overridden by federal law, requiring doctors to provide medical interventions, including abortions, in emergency situations. in other words, whether doctors are allowed to perform emergency abortions is medically necessary. and that is very much a live issue in five other states where abortion is almost completely banned. as justice ketanji brown jackson made very clear in her opinion,

the ruling is not a victory for pregnant patients in ohio, it is a delay. while this court.o's and the country waits, pregnant people experiencing emergency medical conditions remain in a precarious position as their doctors are kept in the dark about what the law requires. joining me now is senior correspondent at new york magazine and author of the forthcoming book, unbearable: being pregnant in america. erin, thank you for joining me, you understand the complexities of these issues better than most, but just first, the veracity of what we saw today, does it smack of the actual decision as you read it? and ketanji brown jackson is not mincing words about how upset she is. >> some of the fascinating dynamics to break down here. the first thing is the court did say that a text of the decision was uploaded, we know it is a legitimate document, we don't know if it is a final document. it is funny how we are getting to be her back behind the

curtain so many times, and the court looks like a hot mess almost every single time that happens. it could have just been an error, that seems like the likeliest reason, it certainly reads like every single justice says themselves. perhaps an outcome of a vote has changed, i doubt it. we will find out tomorrow morning, perhaps the next day when their decision is scheduled. >> one of ketanji brown jackson's contention, that this is an appalling waste of court time, "we can't simply wind back the clock to how things were before the court injected itself into this matter. it is too little, too late for the court to take emil again and just tell the lower courts to carry on as if none of this happened," "as the old adage goes, the court has made its bed, so now must lie in it." i mean, these are forceful words from the newest member of the court, and she seems quite clearly upset about how this

has been handled. >> this is very powerful coming from justice jackson, because in some ways, she is calling out another new member of the court, amy coney barrett, who describes herself as having changed her mind about taking the case, so just big picture, before we step back and all the different opinions and what they mean here, what is at stake here is that for the longest time on planet right- wing fantasy, there is no emergency abortion that is justified, and if there is, we are not going to call it an abortion. that is the planet they have been living on. two years ago, that was put into practice. the reality had to intercede that in fact, there are plenty of reasons why somebody might have to go to an emergency room and need abortion care. their answer in the beginning was, oh no, somebody is misinterpreting the law. now we have gotten to the stage that their lawyers are in court and saying, not that, that doesn't really happen that way, or if it does, it is the doctor's fault, trying to make us look bad. but most have been forced to say

that if they are in fact waiting for somebody's organs to fail, waiting for somebody to die, and they don't care if they suffer serious impairment, which is the federal standard, that is a backdrop that every other week somebody is being medevacs, a pregnant woman is being medevacs in idaho, and women are being told if they are considering getting pregnant in idaho, they should preemptively buy a membership to a medevac company. >> life lights out of the state in case you get pregnant. >> there aren't even that many people in idaho, and yet, there is somebody every other week who needs this care, at least, that we know of. the backdrop is that the court jumped in on this so fast, before the lower courts even had a chance to fully explore the issue, because they agree, they took at face value idaho's argument that the federal government was going to force them to suffer irreparable harm by forcing this emergency law. and so, in order to dismiss it the way they did, they needed at least one justice to change their mind, because it takes four justices to take it.

in the end, we ended up with a 3-3-3 opinion. we had the three female democratic appointees, we had three -- you know what? we had three republican politicians, cavanaugh, barrett, and roberts, who i think need to be understood as they would rather wait for the trump justice department to resolve this then blow up this issue. >> let's see what happened to the country in the process. >> yeah, they saw 2022. and then, you know, you have the true believers, alito and thomas, just wanted to burn the whole thing down. within the real liberals, you have ketanji brown jackson saying don't bother with this fake justification of the procedure to say, oh, we shouldn't have taken it, so we don't have to decide it, we will wait, she knows there are a lot of other states -- >> there is a case in texas that is the mirror image of this that is almost certainly going to go to the court. >> and she is saying that, what

about texas where there is another case waiting? we saw the same thing happen with the mifepristone case. great for now, access is preserved, but what about all these other cases that are coming? are they just punting it because they know how bad -- because it would rather this issue not blow up in their face? when the trump justice department or potential future trump appointees could do their dirty work in the future. >> the political calculation that is at the root of that is just damning for the court if that is actually what is happening. it is a remarkably cynical view about the high court, but it is hard to imagine having any other assessment of what is actually happening. erin, a wealth of knowledge on this, thank you for your time, my friend. coming up, we have new details on what donald trump is doing to prepare for tomorrow's presidential debate, which apparently, you are allowed to

call anything but debate prep. the right-wing media empire is letting it be known who it was like trump to pick for vice president. is donald trump even listening? that is next. >> [ music ]

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would you ever do business with donald trump? >> i don't think so. >> why? >> i would -- i just think that

it is important that you are judged by the company you keep, >> it is went into business with him? >> no, i wouldn't. >> i am a never trumper guy. i never liked him. what donald trump has done is change the focus of the white working class to politics pointing the finger. >> what we are dealing with here, my friends, is a con artist, he is a con artist. >> those are reportedly the three front-runners for donald trump's vice presidential pick. today, the conservative editorial board at rupert murdaughs wall street journal officially weighed in on those stakes, making the case for north dakota governor doug burgum. that follows last week's bergamot endorsement from the editorial at the new york post, another murdaugh owned paper. it is pretty clear who rupert murdaughs once here, but the question is is donald trump even listening? >> former missouri senator and co-host of the how to win 2024

podcast player. thank you guys for joining me. tim, i do wonder whether the murdoch empire matters to donald trump anymore. >> just about zero, i think. maybe slightly more than zero, but you might remember that rupert murdoch's post on the day of donald trump's announcement for president, he put it on like page 32 and there was a banner on the front page that said local demand mix announced, the murdoch's were off the trump drain, they were all in for desantis. they put all of the weight behind the murdoch empire behind desantis, there were soft focus segments on fox and friends of ron desantis throwing the ball around with the fox and friends host, and all of that amounted to literally nothing. donald trump crushed ron desantis, so i don't know why donald trump would care what the wall street journal and board or rupert murdoch thinks now, when they have done nothing for him, and he is

still stronger than ever, at least within the republican party. >> i mean, it does beg the question, what exactly is donald trump looking for? "the governor has executive experience and was a highly successful tech ceo. at microsoft, which bought his company, bergamot steamed to work well with steve ballmer, which isn't easy. mr. bergamot would be loyal to trump, while also unafraid to offer hard advice or speak unhappy truth when a moment demands it." is that what donald trump is looking for, claire? steve ballmer, sorry. if you're out there, sorry for the comparison to donald trump. >> here is what the editorial had to say, doug burgum is perfect because he will not upstage donald trump, he will be as quiet as a donald trump wants him to be. number two, he is great because he looks the part. number three, he is great because he can put his hands on a lot of money. that editorial, that might have

some residence with donald trump, because those are the three things he cares about. by the way, i would advise them not to put in the editorial, just look how well it worked out for pence. >> the more the editorial bear hug them, it is less likely he will pick whoever they bear hug. tim, how did jd vance go from being a celebrated author talking about how he was a never trump two on his short list for surrogate son? >> that babyface guy, what happened to him? if we could only bring him back. >> what did happen to him? >> donald trump jr. is on his side right now, which i think is a much more important endorsement than the wall street journal. same thing that happened to marco, they saw that republican voters want maga, they want trumpism, they want nationalism, and then the kind of backfilled the policy rationale to support that. and i think somebody like jd vance was always kind of moderate on economic issues, so

he used that to argue that he is maga, then he kind of layered on top of that, in order to be maga, have to suck up to donald trump and go in line with vaccine conspiracies. he layered that on top of his more authentic, populous, economic agenda, and now, here he is as kind of a golden boy in the maga world. >> i do wonder, though, if there is something to the idea that donald trump jr. likes jd vance, and trump absolutely wants to be the alpha in the presidential-vice presidential relationship, and therefore, does not put jd vance slightly higher in the stakes than anybody else because of his sort of fealty to donald trump and his relative youth, claire? >> well, you know, you can look at that two ways. jd vance was successful with a book and was well thought of before he became maga by a lot of folks and a lot of different places. you know, that is the problem

that trump has. he wants someone who looks vice presidential, but someone who will never act independently, never ever take the shine off of trump, and frankly, will do whatever he tells them to do. that was mike pence's problem. pence actually thought the constitution mattered. pence wanted to follow the law as it applied to peaceful transfer of power in america. i mean, if you look what donald trump did to marco rubio, it is just sad that these guys are groveling. i mean, they are falling over themselves to try out, to get this job, to grovel at his feet, to kiss his feet. it is not a show of strength. what they are trying to show is they are weak enough to be the vice president that donald trump really wants. >> yeah, tim, your thoughts on marco rubio on the just appalling transformation, begging and scraping at the altar of trump?

>> yeah, that is a great point that claire makes about the weakness, you need weakness to get it. i think the rubio transformation, a lot of it stems to bitterness. when i was writing about these guys, like my former colleagues and the strategists said and the former senate republicans i used to roll with, what i found on those interviews, and i never interviewed marco, but they were mad, they felt judged by us. they felt judged by the media, by their friends. and some of them would have to do that very poorly, and i think that marco feels aggrieved, he feels better, and that has the most trusted him into donald trump's arms. it is a sad tale. he offers trump the most stimulating option, because if he takes marco as vp, he would force marco to move. i think that would be appealing for donald trump, to humiliate somebody. >> what a role it is to be donald trump's vice presidential pick. tim and claire, please hang with me for the next block, i

want to get your thoughts on one more story, which is on the eve of his first debate with president biden, donald trump has said that expectations bar at sea level. how much does any of it matter? two and later, i'm going to speak with time magazine reporter eric about his interview with steve bannon, who is due to report to prison in just a few days. stick around for that. >> [ music ] >> [ music ] harlem has everything. but i couldn't find pilates anywhere. so i started my own studio. and with the right help, i can make this place i love even better. earn up to 5% cash back on business essentials with the chase ink business cash card from chase for business. ♪♪ innovation in health care means nothing if no one can afford it. ♪♪

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away from the first presidential debate. nbc news reports today that president biden participated in at least one mock debate yesterday and another one today at camp david where he has been residing since last thursday. as for trump, he has reportedly been participating in something called policy refreshers. so far, trump has held half a dozen of these sessions, each about an hour long, including a core group of top aides. just don't call that debate prep, it is a policy refresher. trump has also been devoting some of his time to the expectations game. his latest line is that if president biden does well tomorrow, it means he is on drugs. >> a little before debate time, he gets a shot in the butt, they want to strengthen him up. so, he comes out, he will come out -- okay, i say he will come out all jacked up, right?

all jacked up. >> back with me, tim and former senator claire mccaskill. claire, this is not a new line from donald trump, right? in 2020, he called for joe biden to take a drug test. in 2016, he said yuri clinton was juicing. he wanted her to take a drug test. is this truly the best he can come up with, given the past? >> yeah, he doesn't really know how to do anything but personally and so people. that really is his only -- that is the only song in his handbook. and he has gotten himself in a bind, because he spent so long convincing everyone that this guy can't walk or talk. i even noticed kevin mccarthy on fox today talking about how sharp joe biden is and how he knew every detail of the policies coming back from the g7 meeting. i am going, wait a minute, you were just quoted in the new york times saying he didn't know where he was. so, they're kind of caught. they can't really keep up.

that the guy is horrible, because joe biden is going to come out tomorrow and he is going to be scrappy. you know, it is going to be really interesting to watch how joe biden tries to take on donald trump with his lies and his meandering and his crazy talk. i predict that we will see state of the union joe biden, and it will be quite a wonderful debate. >> i do wonder, tim, what is it, policy refreshers, because it is never ever debate prep. trump is meeting with the millers, jason miller and stephen miller, getting kellyanne conway back in the mix. i think rubio and vance have been helping him with these policy refreshers. what, practically, do you think the marriage is in terms of having anybody talk to trump ahead of the debate, given his performances prior? >> i also get a kick out of the policy refreshers.

he can't admit it. he can't admit it. prepping, because of his ego or whatever. so they come up with this nonsense talk. it is worth noting, like the reality, is donald trump did improve between the 2016 and 2020 debate. excuse me, the first debate in 2020 and the second debate in 2020. it did not help then. donald trump has a lot of flaws, but he is capable of taking some feedback and sanding down his rougher edges, if he does not get triggered. i think that is joe biden's job during the debate. joe biden is to be presidential and put forward the policy agenda, but he also has to get under trump skin a little bit because he will try to be the calm for trump version. not calm for a normal politician, but calm for trumpian biden will try to bring the real trump back. >> home for trump is a category unto itself. i know you guys are in atlanta,

thank you for your time. i will be joining you in atlanta, myself, for msnbc's special coverage of the first presidential debate, hosted by cnn. our coverage begins tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. eastern and goes until very late, when the pizza comes out. coming up, a new interview sheds light on what steve bannon plans to do well serving out his prison sentence next week. here is a hint. steve bannon is not going to be pumping iron, or so he says. i will speak to the journalist who interviewed him, right after the break. after the break. farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract, or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ an alternative to pills,

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the request, but for a man who could possibly be reporting to prison this monday, steve bannon appears sort of unphased. in a new interview he tells time magazine i don't fear this at all. i am a political prisoner. he writes that bannon is attempting to rally an audience he calls the army of the awakened to sustain his antiestablishment crusade. by playing the martyr, bannon hopes to elevate his brand of burn it all down populism ahead of the presidential election. joining me now is the national politics reporter for time magazine. thanks for joining me tonight. my first question is the sort of understanding he has about being sidelined in the months leading up to this presidential election, given what you write about. the real leadership role he plays in the movement. right unlike other maga media personalities who largely follow trump's lead, bannon can rightly claim influence over the movement. so what are his prison plans?

>> i think bannon sees his prison sentence is an opportunity to fortify support for him as a martyr for the cause. he will try to capitalize on that as much as he can in the days leading up to reporting for prison at a connecticut penitentiary area and he will try to lay the groundwork for the antiestablishment crusade that he believes can help deliver the white house for donald trump where he can embark on me right wing nationalist agenda he is promising. i think in prison, bannon plans to spend his time in the library, following the news voraciously, communicating with his associates, so he can still have a role going into the election. >> he told you, do you think i'm going to come out and be prison ripped? no, i have a lot of work to do. so he will not be pumping iron in the yard, he will be continuing on with his messaging. eric, talk to me a little bit

about what you saw behind the scenes at bannon slayer in terms of his can mention of media and his planning for battle, if you will. his strategizing. >> well you know i spent some time with bannon recently during the saturday morning reporting of his podcast at his capitol hill townhouse, once known by all as the breitbart embassy. it is a bit of what you imagine with a popular understanding of bannon, the imagination of bannon. it is cluttered, sun deprived, full of curiosities and tchotchkes including shrines to maga icons like peter navarro and even bannon himself. he watches msnbc religiously, by the way, and he is really monitoring who he sees as the opposition in the information war, in order to build up maga as a social movement as much as he can, so it can have the greatest influence throughout the next couple of months leading up to when voters cast

ballots. if trump wins he wants to see these kinds of ideas be imposed. hostility to immigration. hostility to free-trade and an aversion to foreign entanglements, so he is really trying to build the infrastructure for a trump revolution. >> what i think is a development at least if not actually surprising is the handshake between republican establishment leadership and the calls of steve bannon. i wonder what your impressions were that the work mike johnson did on behalf of steve bannon, effectively distancing congress from the work of the january 6 committee to negate bannon's conviction. what is the relationship he has with that kind of wing of the republican party, which is by no means moderate, but is not the wing of marjorie taylor greene? >> i think it goes to show just how effective and has been at transforming the republican

party into the political wing of the maga movement. through the war room, through his media personalities, he has really created a fighting machine as a top aide to president trump told me to go against republicans who are not in line with trump. he has built a media ecosystem that can exert pressure and you have people who work in tandem to coerce republicans and try to dismantle the old guard republican establishment. i think this shows how effective he has been doing that really since january 6 when maga as a movement has only grown in size and strength . >> it is a fascinating read. i guess i will say i'm glad that steve bannon is watching msnbc. i'm just going to leave that hanging as if it is a question, because i'm not entirely sure. eric cortellessa with time magazine, thanks for