community seems to be breaking for trump. >> that's what i was going to say. when you think about whatever the climate is for profits, because that's what the stock market represents, it's really good. so that's what i think is interesting. >> so what are they doing going to trump? >> they are trying to make sure they are not on the wrong side of a second president trump because that could bad for their business. i think the overall bottom line here is that paradox, the economy is strong. people feel like it's not affordable. you might hear joe biden talk about that tonight. what he's trying to do, what he has done to focus on the kitchen table, where donald trump wantsm e tax cuts and more deregulation, which is just good for business. >> thank you so much. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now.

hi, everybody. it's 4:00 in new york. a catholic and a convict walk into a bar. you get the picture. it's a picture that will be seen by millions of voters here and all around the world. tonight's debate one part sacred political tradition, the first and possibly only presidential debate, and the other two parts undignified first thanks to one of the two participants being someone sw w so little respect for our political traditions, the traditions of our very elections, they sought to end the tradition of a peaceful transfer of power by denying the irrefutable fact of his own defeat and inciting an insurrection. it will be the first time a current president debates an ex-president and also the first time one of the participants is currently awaiting sentening for his criminal conviction. the substance of whether there is much substance debated, that's an open question too at this hour. president biden, who is now in atlanta for tonight's debate, you can see him here greeting

supporters a few minutes ago, faces a familiar debate opponent in donald trump. trump is a candidate who has a conspiracy theory for every vulnerability he has as a political candidate. trump claims the 2020 election was rigged when really the american people rejected him, sent him packing after four years. he claims that joe biden tonight will be, quote, jacked up for the debate so he can prebutt a rambling performance of his own part. he claims his criminal conviction is the work of president biden and a weaponized department of justice, when it is actually the work of completely independent prosecutors in new york and a jury of trump's peers who came to the conclusion that he was guilty after looking at the fact and witnesses many of them trump confidants. but it is trump's criminal conviction in and of itself that has reshaped the race more dramatically than any other event. with fox news' own analysts

showing a serious and pointing to as a warning sign, a serious decline in trump support among independent voters. it is trump's conviction that he most desperately need to spin tonight. some of the same ways he needed to spin the "access hollywood" tape eight years ago ahead of the debate. politico reporting, quote, the issue of his conviction is almost certain to come up during the 90-minute debate. it will be the first time that either trump or biden will confront the prospect of sustained questioning on the subject, as well as the first time that the two men will have the opportunity to speak directly to one another about it. reporting from "the new york times" suggests that the biden camp sees it all as part of a bigger picture around trump's lack of fitness for office. from that reporting, for mr. biden, maing the debate about trump maybe miens confronting him for his role on the january 6th iowa tacks on the capitol, his willingness to pardon people convicted in the riot, who trump called hostages, and his remarks he's not going to be a dictaor

except for on day one. and one more. trump's new status is a convicted felon. the biden campaign has begun to cast trump's legal woes under a broader umbrella arguing that the former president cares only about himself and is running to avoid prison. american voters on the verge of witnessing the first and perhaps only historic high-stakes presidential debate of the 2024 general election campaign. that's where we start today with some of our most famous, perts and friends. in atlanta at the debate, former senator claire mccaskill is here with us. plus former rnc spokesman, tim miller is here. joining us onset is former obama campaign manager and political analyst david plouffe is here. tim, i start with you. you have been making news this week with adam kinzinger's really strong, really

enthusiastic endorsement of joe biden yesterday ahead of tonight's debate. talk about whether that's some wind at his back politically or whether this event itself, this 90 minutes of face to face squaring off eclipses everything that's happened before it. >> well, i think you need both. i have been just passionately begging any republicans that are opposing donald trump to actually go that next mile and support joe biden. because there are persuadable voters, all the ones that we talked about voting for nikki haley if the primaries, and think they are going to listen to people like adam kinzinger who showed courage on january 6th and are still conservatives and voting for joe biden. they will listen to the ad featuring the communications

director and john bolton and mike pence, all these others. it's important that they go that next step and endorse joe biden to help create a structure for those voters. joe biden has to help himself tonight. i think there's a category of voters, some of this in the nikki haley category, some of this in the democratic base who have some questions about joe biden, who want to see he's the figure tonight, who want to see he's up for this job for the next four years paired together, i think having that outside support and the endorsements with a strong, aggressive performance tonight, i think we could see some movement for joe biden. >> let me show you that ad that tim is talking about, and let me ask you about how you turn them into the per mission structure is not just to reject trump. but it's to go in and vote for and be a supporter of joe biden.

it's a different thing than just the rejection of donald trump. which has happened the highest levels from his own vice president to the most important actors here, the voters thels themselves. let me show you that ad and we'll talk about it on the other side. >> dictator. >> tyrant. >> dangerous. >> threat to democracy. >> cannot in good conscious endorse donald trump. >> we don't take an oath to a king or queen or a tyrant or dictator. we don't take an oath to a want to be dictator. >> this man is unfit to be president. a second term would be more dangerous than a first. >> vladimir putin, u.n., they are fully prepared to take advantage of him. >> i do regard him as a threat to democracy for all those things that make america great. >> if i don't get elected, it's going to be a blood bath. >> what does joe biden tonight do with that?

>> listen, i think it's a pretty powerful ad. by the way, there are more. i think it was great to include the military. this is where we have talked some today about nikki haley voters. if you look at foreign policy, if this debate gets into foreign policy, it would be really important for one of the pivots of joe biden to be to put trump on defense about his love affair with putin. where the nikki haley voters and a lot of those people that were in that ad lost it with donald trump. when they saw him playing footsie and loving up on putin and then what he said about what putin has done to the good people of ukraine, trying to go in and change the boundaries of their country by force, this is where i think you get trump on

defense. because he doesn't have a good answer for all that stuff. it's another place if you can shave some of those republican voters away from donald trump and put them firmly in the biden camp, because he does believe in nato and he does believe in protecting our allies. >> because you watched every moment of this political train wreck with me for the last nine years, let mes press you. this suggests that when we get to the foreign policy section, there will be offense and defense and opportunities. you're not expecting -- tell me what you're expecting tonight. >> i think it's going to get ugly. don't get my wrong. i think joe biden's number one priority is, as i said over and over again, is to get under trump's skin so trump behaves according to to his character, which is outrageous. that has to happen. but every time trump attacks joe biden, joe biden needs to

deflect it and then he needs to pivot and punch. put donald trump on defense. >> there should be video packages ready and waiting to deploy to viewers supporting them. the moderator should not move on until trump admits he's lying. and asking trump the same question over and over again. even if it means joe biden never gets to speak. >> that would be nice, but it's not reality.

so this is on joe biden to manage this debate tonight. and so i agree with tim and claire. he has to show vigor. >> can i press that? why would it be an assist to the moderator to insist on the truth? >> maybe there will be some moment where they say you said this two years ago, but having prepared folks for these debates, you have to assume this is all on you. and you can't be frustrated. >> talk about the burden. joe biden has to defend his record, he has to defeat his debate opponent and be the only arbiter of truth. >> he's trying to get rehired for the most important job in the world. he can handle that. he did very well in the vice presidential debates. he did well in the two debates with trump. this race right now, it could be this is like 16. where all the polls are missing something. but if they are not, trump has a small but important lead in the

battleground states. but biden has the ability to get some people over the line who want to see him fight and be sprong strong. there's a bunch of democratic voters. and that ought to be another cohort to get back tonight. if i were them, i wouldn't assume there's boing to be another debate. you take advantage of these 90 minutes. that's the hard thing. preparing candidates, you have so little time. and i think the thing biden has to avoid and trump to, even though he's the challenger, he's a former incumbent. going down the rabbit hole of defending your record with stats. it's a stone cold loser. you can do a little bit of defense what it means for the american people, and you have to paint the picture of the next four years, me fighting for people, focused on democracy, focused on the economy, trump focused on himself. and then i think there's going to be abortion moments potentially, maybe rule of law with the hunter vs. trump, wait they dealt with this, certainly immigration and the tax cuts. i just -- we don't know what the moderators are going to do.

you just kind of almost try to get forth the questions, with us you don't role play out whether they are going to interject or not. >> tim, similar about this piece about what should happen tonight, around just the truth, the facts. >> he's pointing to interviews that have happened with during covid and it's a different scenario. dealing with trump is different. i agree that joe biden needs to be up for the job that he expects he's going to get, which is probably not a big assist for the moderators. but that said, we have not had a presidential debate before where one of the other try to continue to vow to whether we have elections fair and free and continues to lie about whether

our justice department is fair or whether it's biassed. this is the first time we have somebody like this. donald trump has been on these debate stages before, but we can now ad to his just repeated obnoxious lying, the fact that these things have happened. january 6th happened. he's been convicted as a criminal. he's going to lie, as you said, about both of these critical events. so okay, don't the moderators have some responsibility to hold him to account on that. joe biden also does, but so do the moderators. there's going to be a balance in how to deal with that. >> these conversations are uncomfortable. the moderators are two of the best in the business. they both are friends of mine. but how is the first question not who won the 2020 election? >> it should be. and i'm a failed debate coach.

i have coached several candidates who failed against donald trump. i trust joe biden, but if it's not the first question, it should be in the first 30 minutes something that joe biden interjects into the debate. especially if it starts to get rowdy. looking over at him, you realize i beat you, right? have you yet to admit you lost? you didn't show up to the inauguration. you sicked a mob on the capitol. and i assume that jake and dana will get to that, but if not, joe biden has to do it. >> i guess what keeps me up at night is everything that they need to know about both these men is out there. their concern about joe biden is around not just his age, it's about how he carries his age. it's a question about the delivery. he's someone who has had a lifelong stutter. it caught up with him in year

four of the presidency. people view him as halting. but they are open to being wrong. you look at the reaction and the democratic coalition after the state of the union. oh, my god, where did that guy come from. that's something in the dna of the democratic party. i want to ask you what our role is as we talk about this debate. a lot of people will watch this. this could be an nfl football size audience. there's also people that consume the people say about it. you tell me the frame that should go around tonight's debate. >> i think in a perfect world, i would love the frame to be darkness vs. light. listen, donald trump is appealing to a lot of people in this country that are just mad. they feel like they haven't been given a fair shot. and he is speaking to them in a way that no other politician has ever spoken to them. he says things he shouldn't say. that gives them some kind of sense that he's on their side.

they are wrong about that. he's not on their side. he's busy promising tax cuts to big corporations and promising the billionaires that he gets them and has them and will take care of them. but they believe that. so i really think that what this should be is overall, it you look at it from a distance, one is going to talk about how terrible the country is, how awful everything is, how america sucks, how everything is rigged, and the other one is going to talk about our ideals. and bes a operational. and be about the light that america can be to the rest of the world. i think that contrast can get some of those folks that haven't tuned in yet. the guy that's a jerk and the guy who loves his family and really cares deeply about america. yes, he's old, but you know what, he's lived a lot of years and knows a lot of stuff and gotten a lot done. he cares about keeping our democracy strong. that could win over those people that haven't been paying

attention. mark my words. there will be people watching tonight that haven't paid attention at all that are still not sure who is responsible for dobbs being overturned. >> it strikes me that they both stand up there as grandparents. i can't count how many grand kids. i have been saying for days now that i prepared president obama. i prepared people who were less brilliant debaters. but some humility was a tool. sol of these lines george bush said, but he would make fun of his own self. sarah palin walked out and said can i call you joe. he's what i will never do. i will never steal classified documents. i will never call military heroes losers and suckers. i will never tell mark milley

not to have a wounded veteran at a ceremony because nobody wants to see that. i will never, ever make you embarrassed to have me as president. i will never say that. that's his position today. how do you get on the record with all the things trump is proud of that the country isn't? >> it's a huge opportunity for biden. a lot of people will decide this election aren't up to speed on what has been said and done. but you can't focus on 25 things. so the challenge is always -- because actually if you think about it, moderator's questions, they are doing two rounds of commercials, so each candidate has 38 or 40 minutes. so the biden campaign is going to have a list, a football coach scripting the first plays of the game, which is you have to get these out. on age, he should embrace it. we're both very old. and i get that a lot of americans aren't excited about

that, but our parties have chosen. and then at the end of the day, i do think reminding people what trump lied about in terms of roe not being on the ballot in 2020, pushing him and pounding him on the reason we don't have a border bill, talking about the bush tax cuts, sorry, the trump tax cuts. and i think the hunter biden moment is going to be huge. >> say more about it. you said it twice. what's the opportunity? >> i think you know i love my family and my son, but a jury of his peers found him guilty. and i accept that. i'm not going to commute his sentence. let's look at you. you duck accountability on everything. and so. >> you par donned steve bannon and all your political cronies. >> this is what worries me. if you get in there, you're not going to give a damn about anybody in america but yourself. no one is going to get a job, no

one is going to get health care because of that. i think joe biden can do that. because of the concerns about his age, i agree with claire. it's got to be i'm for the american people, trump is for himself, but he has to be tough. he has to put trump on the defense. they think trump is this fer ril creature who has strength. if biden can handle him, that goes a long way to say, okay, he's up for this. >> they'll go with the crazy person over the person they don't think can protect you from the crazy person every time. it is this person who can catch the rabid raccoon in the box and send it away. >> bill clinton said, rather be strong and wrong than weak and right in politics. there's something to that. >> biden was the person who the voters saw as strong and capable caging the guys that was crazy and wrong four years ago. i want to show you what that looked like. i have to sneak in a quick break. claire and tim, you're leaving us. thank you for starting us off. we'll come back to you through

the course of the night. david sticks around. still much more to come from atlanta for us, home of the first and potential thely only presidential debate. it's hosted by our friends at cnn jake taper and dana bash, but you can watch it here on msnbc. next, we'll talk with a member of the biden reelection campaign. how the president is getting ready for tonight. not watching tv, i'm sure. we'll find out what he's actually toing. plus knowing how important the stakes are in november, former police officer harry dunn, who defended the united states capitol and everybody in it on january 6th, is making sure no one sits the election out. he was a former republican the congressman adam kinzinger yesterday as he endorsed joe biden trying to get that message out. i'll speak with him coming up. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues on this debate day in america. after a quick break, don't go anywhere today. after a quick break, don't go anywhere today

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what do you want to call him? give me a name. >> proud boys. >> stand back and standby. >> i'm not going to answer that question. >> will you shut up, man? >> who is on your list? >> gentlemen, i think we have ended this. >> i'm not here to call out his lies. everybody knows he's a liar. >> you're the liar. >> i want to make sure -- i want to make sure -- >> can you let him finish.

>> he doesn't know how to do that. >> that's simply a lie. >> your party wants to go socialist. >> my party is me, right now, i am the democratic party. >> you know that. >> i'm the democratic party right now. the platform of the democratic party is what i, in fact, approved of. >> so, i don't know if that's going to make you watch, make you drink, sign up for netflix, but that's what happened the last time these two men squared off. joining us at the table is spokesperson for the biden campaign adrian al right is here. do off plan if trump starts talking about sharks and electrocution? and it's so crazy, but it's so out of line. is there a plan to deal with the crazy? >> i think certainly our campaign, it keeps communications taem is really

smart. making sure they do breakthrough because i think a lot of people will tune in tonight, but not everyone is going to tune in we'll make sure we're using those moments effectively to make sure the voters understand what we're dealing with here. but i think something i really struck me when you were showing that clip. it you notice joe biden when he was talking to the american people or presenting his case, he was looking at the camera talking to the american people. you're going to see him do that tonight. he understands what's at stake. he understands how important the issues are. donald trump is going to say crazy things. we know that. this is the first time these two have been in front of a prime time audience together in nearly four years. it's the first time trump really has been in front of an audience that has not just the maga type of base. you're going to see president biden really focusing his argument on what he's going to continue to do for the american people, whereas donald trump, who know what is he's going to do. that's what the task is. >> sarah longwell, who runs the

voters against trump, it's an a-ha. the largest voting coalition available to president biden is an anti-trump coalition. so politically to move all those people to biden voters in november activating them, reaching them, animating them with their anti-trump energies that exist, it's the largest the pool of voters available. with that in mind unless you disagree with the premise, but how do you make sure people know everything trump has done that trump now celebrates the insurrection, trump launched his campaign in waco. he's a convicted felon. in a sworn deposition, he restated his position when you're tams you can grab them in between the legs. all the most awful things about trump are things he has doubled down on the last four years. >> a couple things. we did hire adam kinzinger to run our efforts. . he's making sure that all the republicans who did not support

trump in 2020 are number one with us. number two, the people who have been outspoken, the people who used to work for donald trump are also in our corner and using their voices in a way that is reaching those people. obviously, we're spending a lot of money. we have raised a lot of money to reach those voters. and we're also making sure that we are meeting our networks and our message in a way that is breaking through. it's not always easy, as you know, to breakthrough in a fractured media environment. we are getting creative. when you look at where we put the infrastructure in the state, we opened 200 offices in battleground states alone. we just announced our 1,000 employees in those states. we're taking this seriously. we're laying the infrastructure now. this is necessary to make sure that six weeks before the

election, we have the mechanism in place to be able to reach the people that you're talking about. >> do you agree that a question should be asked about who won the 2020 election? >> tonight? absolutely. i hope it's asked. that's going to be a major contrast moment for president biden and donald trump. donald trump, if he passes any precedence here, he's going to make it clear he does not believe joe biden won the election. he's going to say that. that's going to be a major contrast moment. you talk a lot about how often times we don't see donald trump all the time. his rallies are not being aired on every single network. >> fox stopped airing them. >> prime example. we have to remind the american people what we're dealing with. the unhinged person. by the way, i don't have to tell you this, he's become more unhinged since he's been president. something set him off. he's become more erratic. there's going to be a blood

bath. it's terrifying. and we have to make sure that the american people understand what the stakes are. this is somebody who was crazy before. he's crazier now. and that will be a major moment for president biden. not only to help make that contrast clear tonight, but also talk about how he's going toen continue to deliver for the american people. >> a couple things that have changed since they last faced off. his son faced criminal scrutiny from his own justice department with prosecutors being convicted. his son is someone who the republicans are a white whale. it's never done harm to him politically ever. it doesn't seem to juice the right the way it used to. they threw up their hands and gave up on their manufactured weaponization committee. they couldn't find anything there. but there does seem to be an opportunity to connect with the vast majority of americans who have dealt with the disease of

addiction ask who have walked this walk, who lived with children who they just wake up every day and thank god they are alive. they are still fighting. and i wonder if there's a point where it's really become a fever dream. it's not an electoral issue around which biden has any vulnerability. is it something he's going to talk about if trump comes after him? >> 1,000%. you hit the nail on the head. there's so many americans around this country that if it's not a family member, it's a friend. someone who suffered through addiction and come out on top. they understand this. . this is not work. if trump thinks this is going to play well with independent voters, it's not. maybe it's going to get some of the base excited, but he's not going to win this election. donald trump won't if he doesn't expand his base. so taking on hunter biden, the president's son who are is not

on the ballot, is not going to be an effective strategy. it hasn't worked so far. and president biden, one of his greatest attributes is his empathy. he's a strong family man who loves his family dearly. that will be a moment. that will be a hard moment for someone like me to watch because i care deeply about president biden and his family, but i also know it's one of those moments he will defend his son. let he will rise to the occasion. he's done that numerous times. he will do it again tonight if the situation arises. >> what's the one thing when you see the debate on your calendar that jolts you awake in the middle of the night? >> i don't know i have a worry. it's more -- and i'm not trying to sound corny, i look at this as a real moment for our campaign. where the president can go out there, present his case to the american people, talk about not only what he's done so far, which he's not going to spend a lot of time talk about his accomplishments, but he's going to use his accomplishments as a proof point for how he's going to get more done in a second

term. it's a real opportunity. sure, we were talking about this during the break. primary days, debate days, you're sitting around waiting. what am i going to do to occupy my time. but i think this is going to be a real opportunity for the president to talk to the american people. it's tough to find moments to do that where you have so many people watching and you have not had a moment like that sibs the state of the union. it's an important night for this campaign. >> good luck tonight. >> thank you. when we come back, a new handful of republicans are saying what tim miller talked about. the permission structure stuff. jump in, the water is plenty warm enough. you can put country over party. the stake of democracy, you can keep donald trump far from the white house. we'll show you what that looks like when we head back to atlanta, next. don't go anywhere. atlanta, next. don't go anywhere. starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant, that's a different story. with the chase ink card, we got up and running in no time. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back

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that gritty feeling can't be brushed away. even a little blurry vision can distort things.

and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves' could develop a different condition called thyroid eye disease, which should be treated by a different doctor. see an expert. find a t-e-d eye specialist at isitted.com i'm not looking at this election through the lens of become a republican. i'm looking through the lens of being an american. an american that cares more about the future of my country than the moral bankrupt nominee of my party. there are political ramifications to this decision. but they pail in comparison to four more years of donald trump, both home and oi iowa broad. it's my time to ask a favor of all those thousands and thousands of republicans across the country who have given us words of enkujment. i haven't asked. my ask is this. it's your time to do the right

thing. don't give donald trump four more years to continue to destroy this country. >> a powerful and urgent message from a highly credible source. you might remember jeff duncan. he's the former lieutenant governor, who announced hi would vote for president biden in 2024. he represents a vital segment of the coalition president biden is trying to assemble to win in november. disaffected republicans who rightly view tonight's debate not as one between two parties on the line, but one between a man who tried to put our democracy under water, to torch it, to burn it all down. someone who has vowed to preserve and protect it at all costs. joining our conversation is political vorter for the atlanta journal constitution greg bloom stooen is here. and vaughn hillyard. david is back with us as well. greg, it strikes me that we

started -- you're like a regular. but we started talking to you ahead of and sort of around the release of the tape, the call. a lot of what you helped us understand is a fracture not about whether that republicans are not, not even really whether they support trump, but about the big lie. and georgia's republican elected officials are in almost a class of their own. whether they support trump or not, they do seem to be the sign of life that you can be a republican and acknowledge the truth about trump's defeat. there are a lot of republicans in georgia who don't. georgia has everything. but i wonder if there's anything about where the debate takes plabt place tonight that triggers any of those fractures from 2020? >> you're so correct.

the party is splintered, but the debate site here is full of symbolism. we're not far from the home of the. epicenter of election center lies involving poll workers who were accused of doing awful things. we are not the center of where the criminal trial is taking place or is going to take place involving that phone call and so many other efforts by donald trump and allies to overturn the election results in 2020. we're not far from one of the premier battleground states where so many independent voters helped swing the 2020 vote to joe biden, but also help elect republicans like brad raffensperger to new terms. >> vaughn hillyard, i have a million questions for you. is melania there? who is there with trump? >> reporter: our best understanding at this point is the former first lady is not

flying with him here. this would, if she did show up tonight, our understanding is jill biden is going to be here. but melania trump has yet to appear on the campaign trail since he launched his bid in november of 2022 except when she went to a polling location to vote with him back in florida. >> vaughn, take me inside what the vibe is like there in a place with a lot of not just symbolism, but a lot of the carnage trump promised really did play out in that state. we heard the testimony from brad raffensperger about the tragic doxing that haze family received. he described them as sexualized. we heard the first republican to go to a microphone and say someone is going to get shot because of the lies trump was telling about not losing an election that he clearly lost. and administration. just tell me what it feels like

in that state almost four years later. >> there's a reason this debate is taking place. it would be surprising if president biden didn't bring up the facts of what played out here in the states with the poll workers and with the efforts to overturn the election and the indictment that had 19 co-defendants, donald trump being one of them. because when you look at donald trump ever since january 6th, 2021, he has faced very few questions about the efforts to overturn the election. he's only done two mainstream press interviews over the last three and a half years. he didn't engage on the republican debate stage. so that's why tonight over these 90 minutes, they are going to be a unique experience at least for donald trump because he's been largely able to avoid those serious questions or having to come to terms with what so many, including those here in georgia, ultimately went through. that's where brian kemp, who was just walking behind us here in the spin room a few moments ago, is such a unique character in the republican party. and the fact that donald trump

tried to oust him in 2022. failed to do so. donald trump was successful in so many ways in ousting others, the list of those that came through unscathed is very small. but they are sort of these oddities in the republican party here today. it would not be unsurprising for joe biden, puch like the new campaign commercial, to openly suggest that people like brian kemp, people like mike pence, are still unwilling today wholly back him for the presidency. a republican for the presidency in the year of 2024. >> no one is going anywhere. i want to ask you when we come back about the permission structure. we talk about it in the context of republicans, but i wonder how it animates democrats as well. they are voting for my guy. i have to sneak in a quick break. don't go anywhere. quick break. don't go anywhere.

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i'm with greg, vaughn and dade. we talk about the permission structure in this country. the meaning someone influential in your world. so republicans see cheney and kinzinger and probably more importantly a local republican official hang a biden flag in their driveway and it makes them want to vote for biden. i heard that democratic donors

see all this republican and it makes biden feem fooel like the safest and best investment. what do you think the importance is of all the high profile republican embrace? >> first of all, i think like we saud earlier, leaders going out and getting on social media, that's important. a lot of them are saying they are not for trump and for democrats that are floating with trump, at the end of the day, i think this election is going to come down to that small group of people who you hope say i can't sign up for trump again. when they see the people who work for him, it includes donor. i think a lot of democrats have been waiting for the former republicans to be in commercials, out giving speeches. hopefully they'll start joining biden and harris.

at the end of the day it's going to be a close race the if i had to target one thing, and it may not be captured properly in polls, but at the end of the day as people are opening their mail ballot or getting ready to vote, they have that gut check, do i really want to give trump four more years? if they've heard from people who have been in the situation room with him, in meeting, in the oval office, that say that this is a crazy thing to do, that should help. >> vaughn, we have solid reporting that trump didn't read his pdps, they resorted to a lot of efforts, but he can read lines, and he's hyper reactive to the reactions.

even trump knows, a few touch lines into earth one. he knows his conviction hurts. he knows that abortion hurts them. because republicans in kansas voted against the banning abortion and making it illegal in every state, which is what a trump presidency would usher in, leaving it to the states, but there's nothing to stop the contingent from passing a national abortion ban, and trump has said he wouldn't sign it. that would be the future. the other thing is what we talk about on this show with military voices, that he did call people who died serving the country suckers, and he believes people who were injured serving the country are something no one wants to see. we know that he knows these are liabilities for him. any insight on how he plans to

address those vulnerabilities? >> reporter: one thing based off his social media post this morning, that he's going to face serious criticism over the overturning the roe v wade, and his's not answered where he stands on abortion medication as well. but this morning he put a post that i thought was interesting -- in part -- the policies are nightmare for women when it comes to the border and immigration, almost a tip of the hat to how he'll try to thunder that critique on his head. i went back to the two bee days. when he faced an onslaught of criticism over at the people who had lost their lifts to covid, he turned it back to joe biden, well, because of the obama administration that you were a

part of, hundreds of thousands of americans veterans who lost their lives because of the department of veterans affairs during the obama administration. i think this is somebody who has openly suggested over the last week he's not doing any formal preparations, but preparing for his whole life for his mom, it's in his head and there's only so much in a room to prepare. i think that will cull out in full display, the extent to which somebody over four-plus years has not been able to provide a healthcare, or any policy when it comes to women's reproductive rights. that's where there's a lot of question marks how he will respond when joe biden presents those to him today. >> gordon, it's going we started talking about the history. shay moss and freeman are know owed millions from rudy

giuliani, because of a court of law adjudicated the laws that he told, that trump echoed, and he was indeed guilty. talk about where this state is in terms of trump's credibility? >> we had an "flans journal-constitution" poll out this week that showed the republican confidence has decreased, despite even republican-backed election laws promoted a product of promotion of these lies. where things stand here, it's very close. i look at this entire election, poll after poll after poll is around the margin of error. so, each individual bloc of voters, these independents, whether or not president biden's responsibility with black voters

is softening, i'm really looking at the independent-minded voters who typically vote republican in states like georgia, but have -- we saw nearly 80,000 republican voters in the last presidential primary voted for nikki haley, even though she was already out of the race when most of them voted. >> they're taking square aim at those voteers, appealing to those voters could really matter. >> i forgot it was that many. 80,000, just hearing trump's voice with raffensperger. there's a lot more nikki haley votes there. thank you so much for spending time with us this hour. join all of us took at 7:00 p.m. we're here during the duration. it had be moderated by our

friends over at cnn, dana bash and jake tapper. we'll be simulcasting it, and we'll better he as soon as it ends, led by rachel maddow in what is arguably the most important moment so far of the 2024 presidential campaign season. we'll talk about the themes that will come up. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a very quick break. don't go anywhere. r a very quick don't go anywhere. needs to customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. let's fly! (inaudible sounds) chief! doug. (inaudible sounds) ooooo ah. (elevator doors opening) (inaudible sounds) i thought you were right behind me. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪

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donald trump will white. we know he will lie, because he will speak. it's impossible for him to do one without the other. >> there's that. his, everybody. just four hours to go until the first presidential debate of the election cycle. one thing we know for sure about how tonight will go down. donald trump will lie about lots of things. he lies about things big and small. he lied more than 30,000 times during his presidency, including about losing the 2020 election, and has lied continuously since he left office. tonight will not be different. but tonight will be even different than no other. that is because the current president of the united states will be on stage debating a man

with 34 criminal convictions, a man found liable for sexual assault. when he didn't win last time, he incited a deadly insurrection on our country. in terms of policy positions or foreign policy agendas that might come up, the contrast is simpler. one candidate obeys and reveres the rule of law, even when it ensnares his son. the other loathes it. one candidates are candidate is trying to protect democracy, he has it on his website that he will dismantle it. i don't know if you want to hear this or not, but the polls show the two candidates within striking distance of one another, meaning there's a lot to learn about what the voters

know about what each man says they're going to do. tonight will be the first time they get to do that, the first presidential debate to be head in a studio with no live audience since kennedy debated nixon. there will be a mute button to use. it is the earlier general election debate ever to happen in the flow of a general election calendar. usually they're in the fall. politico reports this -- it has the potential to change the trajectory and narrative of the race for weeks or months, especially if it turns out to be the only one of the cycle. chief political columnist, host of "in politics" for puck. alice, who anchored for us on monday, thank you.

and co-host of msnbc's "how to win 2024" podcast, jennifer palmieri is here, and basil scherr michaels is here. >> nicolle, i think it's often the case -- happy debate day, by the way -- it's often the case it's mildly overstated what you can pick up in the room at this point. biden people in particular have been kind of on lockdown for the better part of today. they have their coaterie of people here. here are the realities that we have coming into tonight.

one of them is that i think there's a broad consensus on both parties -- mart people on the republican parties and everyone in the democratic party, that the republicans have done a terrible job of managing expectations here it occurred to them belatedly it wasn't a good idea to do against exactly the same thing they did before the state of the union and basically say joe biden can barely keep from dribbling on his shirt, or remain upright for the entire evening. that's what we think we'll get on thursday night. that was making it easy for joe biden to compete expectations, that kind of encouraged trump's people about halfway through the week. i think -- what you see here is a high degree of a sense of the stakes of this debate on both sides, because there's a perception maybe this will be the only one, because of the

different rules, because it's happening so early. i think for the likelihood, for the smallist slide of persuadable voters out there that something will happen that makes it decisive for them, that then holds between now and november 5th? it's vanishingly unlikely, but it gives the biden team to reframe the race, say the general election is now on, and these are the terms we're fighting on. >> it seems to be trump's read that the conviction has does some political damage among independents, and for trump, for all of his many, many blind spots, on policy, truth, reality, does understand he can't be elected without some support from independent voters. do you sense there's a strategy to deal with his criminal conviction other than blaming joe biden? >> no, i don't think there's a strategy other than doing what

he's done all along. i would say that much acknowledges there's been some damage done by the conviction. the crucial thing about around this debate is, how much? as i say all the time to the tedium? a margin of error race, the race will be won or loss on the margins, so any amount matters. i think in trump's mind and the trump people, they think they're still ahead in all of the band ground states i think there's not a lot of dispute about the notion that trump comes into this race in a margin of error rae he comes in slightly ahead, so he feels like he's winning, and he thinking he can come in and just beat the hell out of joe biden. i don't think that will prove to be a great strategy, nor do i

think it's a good strategy, and i think joe biden is likely to overperform just bulk expectations are so low. but i don't think i've heard anything on background, odd record, off the record, that they have a real strategy to mitigate the damage because of these convictions, i don't think they have a strategy for dealing with the sentencing next week, either. >> we learned from vaughn hillyard that mel lannia hasn't been spotted. trump is running on the facts of the two federal cases, running on mar-a-lago, when they let you do it, pra, a meaningless blurting out off of the presidential records act. on the insurrection, he's running on pardoning the insurrectionists themselves, the supporters who beat cops with flagpoles and other weapons. he's not running on the facts of

the new york criminal cases for which he was convicted by a jury of his peers. again, melania may show up at the last minute, but what about the things that everyone can see with their own eyes? >> you mean what he was convicted of, having an extramarital -- >> some about "access hollywood." >> people thought it was a fair trial, the crime was about the business records, it wasn't about the affair, but i do think -- certainly it's unappealing, the kind of hailey voters, they don't like this kind of behavior. i think the most effective argument the biden team has used to date on the felony conviction is to say, he will not accept democratic outcomes. he is an autocrat. this was a fair trial, but he would not accept the outcome, he

will not accept the outcome of the election. he will not -- >> he didn't accept the '16 election. go to do the guy from accounts to look for voters fraud. he doesn't accept the results whether he wins or loses. >> if you don't care about the underlying charges, still, it's another example that i think is damning for, again, lie the haley people, independent voters, who are worried about rules being held up. >> basil? >> the role of the moderator is to keep everyone honest, but i'd like to see them hold accountable in real time, to really steer the course and get good sort of language and dialogue out about what this country is really experiencing and how voters are feeling, and

try to get the candidates. i'm confidence joe biden can do that, but you were talking about earlier, he's going to lie, because that's what he does. the one thing he can do is walk around a stage and loom over joe biden like he did with hillary clinton. so he's got to hold firm and not give into that. in truth, if he tries that and the moderators push back, he'll do what joe biden needs him to do -- here's the bully, here's the guy that knows how to run government. we have exactly what that looks like. >> look at south korea, for example, 51 million population, 300 deaths, it's crazy -- >> you don't know that. >> i do. you think they're faking their

statistics? >> well, i have a very good relationship with the country. >> you still talk about it, quote, as burning embers. i want to put up a chart as where we are with the illness. one day this week, 75,000 news cases, more than double. >> who says -- we have great testing, we have the best testing in the world. if we didn't test, you wouldn't be able to show that chart. >> but sir, this is a forest fire. >> basil -- i'm sorry to the trip down memory lane, a sad chapter in our history, but this is how he reacts to facts. he can't accept them. do you think the question should be asked, who won in 2020? >> i think we should. it's an important statement, an important demonstration to put up those numbers. i always talked about -- i lost

19 people during covid. millions of americans lost someone to covid. when you kind of trip over, dismiss those numbers and those stats, what are you saying to the american public? what are you saying to the families that have lost? i think that diminutishment, and kind of consistently getting back to that. joe biden has presented himself as a candidate of empathy. continue to do that. >> john, there's what donald trump thinking of everyone who isn't for him? i think every holiday she

celebration, all the mother's dame to all the sickos, and lame-os, even as we should -- trump's words are even too bad for us. what does joe biden, with channeling the disgust that he operates the presidency? >> well, nicolle, i think this is a -- i always find myself getting too micro in these discussions, because what is satisfies to people here. i don't know that there are -- to me, if i'm the biden campaign, and i know that they are, they're focused on this very -- i get it -- the small sliver. it's what the campaign sometimes talk about is the 6% of the electorate in six states, maybe seven. what among -- who haven't yet

decided, who are available, gettable voters. is there an argument that could be made in some way how trump disgraced the oval office, about the lack of fidelity, about the way his cruelness, his sadism, the way he behaves that many think is unconscionable. will that move the argument that those who have watched him for seven years, and still haven't decided, no, i'm not going to vote for them. i won't say there's a powerful moral argument to get made. i'm sure joe biden will make it, but i don't know that that's an argument that helps you win the election. what basil was think saying about what the country feels, and one of the things that joe biden has not done well is speak

to people who -- there are a lot of people who are deluded, who thinking the stock market is down, when it's up. there's a lot of that confusion. people are not wrong that the price of eggs is too high, and that the price of milk is too high. they are paying way more for food, for housing, for gas than they were four years ago. you can go around and america, it's not partisan. everyone will tell you that. it's a fact. what joe biden has not done very well is address that. i think if you're going to try to speak to the ones who might not have decided, how will my economic pain be alleviated? telling people that the economy is better than you think is not a winning message. you can't argue with that. having some kind of message we have more work to do and i have a plan, this guy will make it

even worse for you. here's why you have to trust me. we've made progress, not enough, but here's how we make more. it's a thing that i think that they know they have to try to address, whether joe biden will do it or not is a different question. >> i think today cbs reported this morning that half a dozen economists said if trump is elected, his tariffs and whatnot will make inflation soar. it's a classic sort of campaign -- not even a skill, but a requirement. i think i'm sort of hooked on what sarah said, the longest coalition is an anti-trump coalition. even on the economy, trump would make it worse. >> i think, you know, the biden teams and biden himself has changed his messaging around the economy. it used to be he talked about a lot about what he had done to

make it better. he is now talking about lowering costs. i don't think it's breaking through, but i think to meet the bar that the president of the united states needs to meet to feel like, okay, the most fundamental thing that impacts myself, though i worry about democracy, is the economy. he gets it. separate it. in at autocracy, the economy only works for trump's friends. >> i think the biden team wants to joe joe biden is fight you for you, and trump is in it for himself, but on this one piece, i'm doing things to lower your costs, say that clearly, but don't lose the specifics. >> nancy pelosi said this, we have to do kitchen table issues here. they're not different things. you kitchen table stuff sucks because they live in orbon's autocracy. >> to john's point, one of the

difficulties in answering that question and answering a question about democracy, is there's so many americans -- i talk about this a lot -- there's more americans than we think among the electorate that distrust governments so much that they are focused on disruptive politics. i think the right and left are motivated for different reasons, but they just don't trust anything. if you're looking for something to figure out a pathway out of that, you have to come on this stage saying, i'm going to fight for you, but not in a way that trump does it as a martyr. >> yeah. >> he did pivot from that, but i still think they get caught in the numbers, the inflation numbers and so on. what does that mean if i can't pay my rent? what does it mean intergenerational my father,

could take me to mets game and sit behind the dugout. how do you speak to an american voters who feels they cannot do for themselves or their parents, what their parents did for them. that's a fundamental argument that i think joe biden needs -- >> isn't it about inequality. listen, donald trump just promised billionaires he would let them off the hook if they vote for him? don't we have the answer to what would happen? >> i think the problem with that -- i talked to a 30-year-old black truck driver in des moines and a woman in her 50s in detroit. they both said the same thing, look, trump is a racist, but i could afford milk. my 401(k) was doing better. the truck driver said i could savard gas, it was just better, so there are some voters -- they both voted for biden before.

there are people in the democratic coalition, wow, they would like to worry about democracy, but they need -- >> have they moved on? >> no, i think they're -- biden has proof that i did something for you, and it worked. part of it is the is that is not working. just blow it at up. >> right. >> things are getting better, and these things have helped to lower user costs, so hang in there, kamala harris says all the time, you voted, it mattered, and here's why. but you have to make a connection, i do think you have to set the table with some specifics. >> right. and joe biden -- whatever donald trump says, he can't do it from prison. [ laughter ] >> also that. >> yeah, also that. when we come back, how president biden is making protecting democracy a top issue in his campaign, as he gets

ready to share the debate stage with the only president in our country's history who tried to overturn the results of a free and fair election he lost. harry dunn will be our guest after a short break. "deadline: white house" continue s continues. don't go anywhere. inues. don't go anywhere. ground shipping from the united states postal service. ♪♪ (vo) if you have graves' disease, your eye symptoms could mean something more.rvice. that gritty feeling can't be brushed away. even a little blurry vision can distort things. and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves' could develop a different condition called thyroid eye disease, which should be treated by a different doctor. see an expert. find a t-e-d eye specialist at isitted.com to me, harlem is home. but home is also your body.

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as those rioters were beating us, they told us they were there because of donald trump. his deranged self-centered quest for power is the reason violent

insurrectionists assaulted me and my brave colleagues. >> that was former officer harry dunn, and the threat to him and his fellow officers on that day. president joe biden has already dedicated much of his campaigns to exposing what trump's assault on democracy looks like for men and women of law enforcement. he will no doubt look to do more of the same tonight. joining us in our conversation, author of "standing my ground" harry dunn is here. john, jen and basil are here with us as well. i covered the event yesterday and was happy to say you there. what message do you hope got through? >> so good to be with you.

it's been a while. every election cycle, we phrase this is the most important election, because it's the next one, right? this one, i mean, this i think it really takes the cake this time. you have to realize that i mean, according to donald trump's only word, this is the possibility this could be our last free and fair election. we have to continuously amplify that election, and we couldn't be more clear will the choice nm in this election. one person is fighting for democracy, and one is fighting to be a dictators those are donald trump's own words. that's the message we've been trying to get out, telling our story about what happened on january 6th, and why it's important for people not to forget it. >> talk about how this issue of trump running out and proud as an autocrat, what that means for

law enforcement, what that meant for you on january 6th. >> it's a slap in the face, but it's not a surprise. i mean, that's what he does. donald trump is only -- think of autocrat, self. >> i would honly say if he wasn't facing prison, he wouldn't be running for office. he's doing this to stay out of jail. he only cares about himself. joe biden cares about other people. donald trump is solely doing this for himself. he craves power. he has an unhealthy obsession, a quest for power, which he only cares about himself. that is dangerous. it's dangerous. look at the people he praises. he gets friendly with vladimir putin, and victor orbon, and it's just dangerous what another trump presidency would look

like. it's dangerous. >> first of all, the people i meet, voters knows the most, and people like you have lived the event, our fact witnesses to what has happened. that said, people i think are representing this choice that biden has to make between democracy and kitchen table issues. can you talk about how for you, in your life, you went to work on january i have and they collided. >> give yourself a little more credit. [ laughter ] you know, the people out there, you're right. i have noticed a stark contrast being out there. i've been to wisconsin nice twice, arizona, a lot of people don't watch cable news. they don't know what happened on january 6th, so giving them the

facts, like, we were witnesses, we were victims that day. so being out there to tell them frankly what happened, because they're hearing a lot of misinformation about what happened that day, and just being able to tie it to real people. people don't realize january 6th, the institution of congress, our democracy, the peaceful transfer of power, those things were attacked, but there were real people that day. there were hundreds of officers, everyday people who vote in election, some who voted for donald trump, who are subject to an assault, a mob sent by him. i feel so comfortable, because they told us while they were beating officers, donald trump sent us here. we're doing this to stop the

steal. to articulate that message to people who don't watch news every day, who didn't watch the hearings that's inavailable. i think we have to continue to do that, and continue to highlight that another donald trump presidency. >> i think the fact is officers who voted for donald trump were beat, some of them to within inches of permanent physical and psychological damage, by people who voted for the same guy they did, because of a lie. i wonder, have you thought about the next few months, getting on a bus with the other officers, de niro is here in new york. i have a fantasy, of the thin

blue line driving through the country, joining law enforcement officials and tell you what happened to you that day? >> man, you must be in some meetings, you know, as i lost my election, i started my democracy defenders pac, which i believe going around and helping support candidates that are facing maga extremists. i've made it my miss to stop donald trump and candidates who support him, endorse him, and i'm working myself through the country. that's something i would definitely like to consider doing. in addition to going around as a surrogate for joe biden. we talked about this so much, about about -- and adam kinzinger said it beautifully yesterday, he cooperate stand on the sidelines. everybody has the ability to do

something. talking about it, being educated about what is at stake is so important, so i encourage everybody to use your voice, use whatever resources, your tools, whatever you have, because like i said, you can't succeed this experiment of democracy with donald trump. we will succeed at it if people get out there. a lot of times, the democratic thing is if the turnout is high democrats do well. why? because a lot of people believe in democratic principles and democrats believe in helping people. that could not be more a stark contrast between the two candidates. i hope we get to see that tonight. >> i haven't been in any meetings, but now i want to come to the meetings. you, rob de niro, michael for a known, a blue bust.

i can see it now. on a serious note, our audience is the best i think in the entire try, but they know the facts. they believe you. they believe their eyes. they saw what happened. it's what you said, reaching the people who didn't see it ownership don't believe it. but hearing from you is indisputable. to be continued. so nice to talk. >> real quick. >> not quick. take your time. >> would argue that donald trump has not moved on from january 6th. at his rallies, he starts raising the patriots of those days. he's not talking about the police. he's talking about the people who attacked us. as long as he's out there and his subordinates or flunkies are

out there spreading the lies, then i will continue and some of the other names you mentioned will be pushing back. we refuse to let you all continue to spread the lies, misinformation and downplay what we went through, the average people. like i said people earlier, some people whoa did vote for trump. >> i think the overturns of dobbs, this is the biggest -- i don't think we know how to ask a poll question. can you support one who incited a deadly insurrection? i think, along with dobbs, this is the biggest x factor. if i bring the bus, you get on it and drive around. >> sounds good. let's do it. >> all right, my friend. >> always good to talk with you. the profound abnormality of this moment in the united states, a president debating a

convicted felon. mike at beschloss joins our merry gang. don't go anywhere. s our merry gang don't go anywhere. ♪♪ chewy, a citi client, uses citi's financial expertise to help drive its growth and keep its supply chain moving, so more pet parents can get everything they need... right when they need it. keeping more pets, and families, happy. ♪♪ for the love of moving our clients forward. for the love of progress.

it's an important moment in our history. it's the first-ever debate between a sitting president and an ex-president, an ex-president

also a convicted felon awaiting sentencing. it's the earliest debate in -- it's a matchup. michael beschloss joins us, and the panel is still here. what are your thoughts as we careen into the start. >> careen is a good word. i'm not sure the president's press secretary will like that, but -- >> what are you thinking about? what i'm thinking about is two things, nicolle. number one, you look at history, these debates can decide who will be the president. the first debate was in 1960. john kennedy/richard nixon, cbs

studio in chicago. at that time kennedy was very little known, going in again a two-term vice president to dwight eisenhower, richard nixon who debated khrushchev the previous year. instead, by the end of that debate, kennedy had demonstrated that nom could he go toe to toe with nixon, and had actually done better, many thought. kennedy said not for that television debate, i never would have been elected president. i think that's right. so there's consequences and stakes, not to put on any pressure on what's going to happen in 3 1/2 hours, but that's what we'll by watching. some of us with one hand over one eye, i'm afraid. the other thing is more

important kennedy and nixon had different policies, but americans knew their democracy would still be there on the morning after the results were in, and they could expect that neither of the candidates would try to wage an insurrection to bring down the voting in the capitol and attack the congress. now we're living with this uncertainty. it's not too much to say for the first time in history, we have a candidate who has promised, elect me, and i will curb democracy. i will be a dictator on the first day with anger and retribution against my political enemies. i will subdue the justice department. i have a program to bring the executive branch under my control with the acquiescence of congress, and a supreme court that will play ball.

that could happen next year. all of that could be riding on what happens tonight. >> the first page of timothy snyder's on tyranny is the power given to an autocrat, now that they seize. we're in a 50-50 election. the polls show trump a tick or two ahead of trump, if he believe them. that's talking about power being given away. these are things democrats say about trump. trump is ending on running election, ending our democratic -- >> that's a campaign promise. >> he including top military individuals. he's running on politicization -- >> he's even mentioned executions. >> what is the question for the rest of us on the pro-democracy

side that needs to be asked, so that our fellow countrymen answer the right way in november? >> well, the question i would ask is this. it's not by accident that for more than two centuries we have not come close to electing a president who promised to be a dictator and essentially end our system of democracy. so, you know, we're going to see a big experiment with life-or-death consequences. has this country changed so much that americans will willingly hand the presidency to someone who -- this is not a secret. you know, you expect an aspiring dictator not to tell you what he's going to do. donald trump has made a campaign promise over and over again in public that he wants to be the most powerful leader this country has ever had, without checks and balances. has our country changed so much that americans are going to you say, okay, whatever?

>> john heilemann, what you do you think of that? >> i think anything that mike beschloss says is the witted soul of wisdom. >> is that a conversation that starts tonight? >> look, i said before that i think the stakes could be higher, and i think -- the think i want to really say is that you and i have been deliberating on in a scattered way the last few weeks. i think -- we focused on the role of the moderators and what this would look like up on the stage. i think there's an absolutely essential function that we all have in the press, in terms of interpreting what this debate means, and that the way we have done it in conventional elections is just not good enough for the stakes of this election. i think what i mean by that

is -- i've said before on the show, the tendency to grade these things like boxing matches -- who god in a good job, a good cross, who scored there or there? it's not probably to the kind of emergency circumstance that the country is in. i further think that there's going to be an extraordinary temptation, because the election is so close, not look at the instant polls, and will have no statistical validity or mean nothing, but we're all going to race to see the first set of polls on sunday more monday. has there been any movement whatsoever? i -- there's no way that's not going to happen. i beg people to be -- to have some perspective about how far away we are from election day. it's a long way off, noil.

a lot of stuff will happen between now and november that will affect that sliver of undecided votes. that is really essentially. we talk about the debate tonight. >> i kind of wish we had started with what heilman just said. you know the one thing that matters the most is the thing out of your control, an outside event how your candidate and electorate will react. the thing that will determine -- usually -- i don't know this year, but usually independent swing voters are most receptive to events in the fall. they follow those more closely, because that's when they're starting to tune in. >> that's true, but i always think about what has happened. i always think about backlash. there was a backlash to

reconstruction, to women's suffrage, a backlash to barack obama, which is where we are now. in some way i would like joe biden to acknowledge that, that this country was not prepared for the backlash. that as wonderful as our institutions and constitution are, perhaps they weren't built to withstand what donald trump is about to bring. >> what does that sound like? >> in a way he has to acknowledge trump goes to the bronx and other places and props up the rappers, and says i know black people. as he talks about these horrible cities, there are people on the ground who made these cities better through their own sweat and tears, care and concern for their community, and

acknowledging the backlash, the fact that all of those folks that donald trump is talking about are not passive in how to prepare and support their communities. it's a hat tip to them. we already talk about people on the ground who may not watch cable news, but they're in this work every day. to acknowledge that, even if you feel the institutions in our country you are not supporting us, i, joe biden will find the equity in there and will fight for you. no matter what you say and no matter what donald trump says, but especially project 2025. it is not a party platform, it's an instruction manual. you have to go to the american people and say, we can never go backwards. we have to continue to move forward, but everything in that document that donald trump is saying he's going to put into place is going completely backwards. >> i love that. >> it sounds like you're saying that the president needs to

be -- i believe the president of the united states has to be the most optimistic person in the country. >> that's right. that's right. >> it's like dad telling us it's okay. we've got through a hard time. you know, we did this. the united states is the strongest economy in the world because of what you did, how you held your families together, continue to work, find a way to work during covid, and it's been really hard, but we have come out of it. but i think america needs to hear, like, it's okay. we got through a tough time. you did it. to speak to the good parts. when urn talking about bash lash, we were getting excited, right, and now we have the backlash to trump, to dobbs, to jan 6. i do feel that fundamentally 6 i do feel that fundamentally

>> i would keep d-day in my mind. when biden went to europe, i felt likeen a few weeks ago to represent the united states there,ag i felt like you understood the, like, the responsibility of the united states and how it makes a difference. particularly with authoritarian leaders rising over there, too. if you keep that scope of -- in your mind of how important this is and not let it devolve into this sort of like -- >> stupid crap. >> that you are going to tweet about. >>e exactly. i love it. i love it. admonition about the stupid crap they are going to tweet about. thank you. michael beschloss, sorry to end on a crass note with someone as

elegant as you. we will continue to call on you. we thank john heilemann, basal, thank you. a privilege to go through this night with you. whenis we come back, someone on theac front lines trying to sav reproductive rights foryi women across the country. her reaction to what the supreme court did today. that's after a short break. thatk

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formally released the decision we told you about yesterday in the idaho abortion case posted yesterday. the court now officially ruling that for now women in idaho in health emergencies may receive abortion care. the ruling, however, is far short of a victory for women. justice amy comey barrett quotes, idaho's ability to enforce the law remains entirely intact. amanned is here, she was the lead plaintiff in the texas near total down on abortion lawsuit. we've come to know you and love you and feel the pain of what you went through when you lost your daughter willow. i know these aren't just decisions and rulings. these are real women and their lives. this is about emergency health care, similar to what you faced. what are your thoughts today? >> well, thank you for having me. the love is mutual. i'm always happy to join, happy to see you. you know, on the one hand, i'm

temporarily relieved that women in idaho will have the protection. but also this isn't the end. is just the supreme court kicking the can down the road. we know this is going to end up in lower courts and probably back in front of the supreme court again at a later date. so really this isn't something that i'm celebrating. my heart breaks at the thought of all of the pregnant people in the country who are still suffering, who are still going through something like what i went through knowing that these laws and these bans still exist, and that we are still struggling to get the health care we deserve. >> i think they wrote pregnant patients don't have reason to essentially exhale. i know you are campaigning for president biden. but this is the state of the supreme court. you can live somewhere between relief and anxiety about what they will do next. i wonder for you, with that conversation, what that looks

like and how it's going out in the country? >> you know, i think people are very aware of what's going on. the stakes of this election, and that even though there can be temporary relief, this is a long road. we still have a lot at risk. they are coming for, as we talked about, ivf, contraception, any sort of temporary relief is not the end of the road here, and so as we're out and campaigning and talking to folks, we're seeing how motivated they are because they know this is going to be a long fight. >> when you look at the sort of bullets dodged, there is some shallow analysis that, well, the court can say it moderated itself. so says no one with a womb or uterus. there is still anxiety. women deleted their period trackers because there is a sense, very much on the attack

against women's access to reproductive health care. what is, for you, sort of the truth that you hear -- is that your puppy dog there? we love docs. >> yes, sorry. >> no, we love it. she is in here. >> let me see her. i want to see her. let her shine. oh, look at you! who is this? >> this is milley. >> hello. you're beautiful. you're always welcome in the shot. >> normally, she doesn't have to worry about these things. >> isn't that true? less anxiety than we have. but just tell me what the sort of tension is between these sort of temporary moments where we can exhale because the supreme court doesn't do the worst thing possible, but the onslaught in the states against access to health care. >> well, i have had to stop saying how can it get worse, it can't get worse, because every time i say that, it does. it's scary because they are

coming after not just women's rights or reproductive rights or health care. they are coming after basic human rights that are guaranteed to us as americans, and even though that's terrifying, it's motivating and what keeps us fighting and what i think should molt vat us to november to keep fighting and standing up for what's right in this country. >> you and murray are changing the conversation, changing what what people understand about these issues, and how they affect everyone. thank you for taking time to talk to us today. >> of course. thanks for having me. tonight at 7:00 it begins. rachel maddow will be here leading our coverage with our msnbc colleagues, on the air previewing this first presidential debate hosted by cnn. we will be airing the debate itself and then we will be here watching it together with you and come back on the air for post-debate analysis when it's over. so plan to spend all night with us.

"the beat" with ari melb