constitution is founded on. i think it will be a grave disservice to our constitutional democracy, the supreme court, to even chip away at that fundamental principle. i sure hope they don't, i expect they won't, but as leah has so effectively pointed out, you know, the delay that the court has taken and just rendering its decision here has given trump what he wants effectively, making it very difficult, if not impossible for him to be tried before the election and for the american public to see all the evidence that is against him. and i think it is important for everyone to remember that liz cheney, who was one of the people running the january 6th investigation on congress wrote a "new york times" op-ed that said, look, i didn't have access to a lot of the evidence. the committee didn't because trump hid it from us and we didn't have the power to enforce our subpoenas and the like, but jack smith does have this evidence and a ton of evidence that the american public has

never seen. and if this trial doesn't go forward because of the court's delay, in answering this question, the american public may literally never see this evidence. >> everyone, thank you so much, and really appreciate your analysis and expertise. that does it for us today. for now, i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. thank you for being with us. chris jansing picks up our coverage right now. good morning. it is 11:00 a.m. eastern. 8:00 a.m. pacific. i'm chris jansing in for jose diaz-balart. we're going to pick up with that breaking news from the u.s. supreme court, issuing several major decisions as its term is coming to a close, but most particularly that ruling in favor of a january 6th rioter, and another one that sweeps aside the long-standing precedent. let me bring in nbc's ken dilanian outside the u.s. supreme court. barbara mcquade is a former u.s. attorney who is also an msnbc legal analyst. let's reset the stage here, ken. what did the court say in its

ruling in the january 6th case? >> reporter: before i get to that very important case, i want to say justice roberts made some news by announcing that monday will be the last day of this term and that means we know that on monday we will get that crucial immunity decision, the question of whether presidents are immune from prosecution in their official acts, that's the big one we have been waiting for, it impacts the january 6th case against donald trump. we now know we're getting that on monday. but as you said, the court announced today a decision that also affects the january 6th case against mr. trump, though it is unclear how, based on this decision, but this decision as many expected narrowed the scope of this law that has been used widely in january 6th prosecutions, obstruction of an official proceeding. this was a law that came out of the enron scandal which had to do with the destruction of documents. whoever corruptly alters, mutilates, destroys documents is guilty of this crime, and then there is an or clause.

otherwise interferes with a governmental proceeding. and that second clause was used to prosecute a lot of january 6th defendants. the court is now saying that that was improperly applied against mr. fisher and against many other people. now, the practical implications of this are that most january 6th defendants who are charged with this crime are also charged and convicted of other crimes, assaulting police officers. so there is only a small number of cases, 50 or so, that are going to be affected by this and only 27 of those people are still in prison. so, the impact on the january 6th case is going to be minor. in terms of the impact on donald trump's case, this is one of the charges levied against mr. trump, but many legal scholars said because donald trump's plot, alleged plot to overturn the election involved fake electors, documents, written documents involving slates of fake electors, that that conduct would be covered even under this new supreme court interpretation that requires this statute to be about documents. but that's something that the judge in that case and maybe

perhaps appeals courts and maybe the supreme court again will have to chew on. >> let's pick up there, if we can, barbara. i think even before this, the expectation was, a lot of legal analysis was if fisher won, as he did, that trump's conduct would still be covered by a kind of narrower interpretation of the law. but give us your take on the impact and how this might affect the case against donald trump. >> yes, so, you know, this case is going to have a devastating impact across the country. this statute get used in a lot of cases under a lot of circumstances. as justice barrett said in her dissenting opinion, the court chooses not to read what congress said in this statute. but nonetheless, the majority has spoken, and they have decided that this relates only to documents, but the majority includes a really important sentence which says when it talks about otherwise, it could include not just destroying, altering or mutilating a document but creating false

evidence. and that's a really important sentence that is in there because they know what's going on in the rest of the world and so creating a false slate of electors would still be covered by the statute and i see the trump prosecution as being unchanged by this decision. >> but, potentially again, look, i don't think there is anybody who has been on our air, including you, who said you think there is another case for donald trump of the remaining three that was going to make it before the election. does it push it off potentially even further? >> well, i don't know, i imagine that this is another issue now that we'll be raised in a pretrial motion by donald trump. however, it is not one that could allow interlocutory appeal, even if there were a motion hearing on this issue, it would have to wait until the end of a trial before it could be appealed. i think the biggest challenge is what we hear on monday in the immunity case. even if we go back, judge chutkan has promised donald trump to pick up where we left

off, which was three more months and so i think monday is what, july 1st, that means, you know, three months from july 1st we're looking at october 1st before trial starts. a case that is likely to go six weeks or more, probably puts a verdict past the election even under the best possible case scenario. >> let me go back to what ken was saying right before we came into this hour, barbara, this probably impacts maybe 50, correct me if i'm wrong, of the -- what is it, now, hundreds and hundreds of folks who were charged and convicted, related to the january 6th insurrection. he said 27 of them are still in prison. this is not the first time a supreme court ruling obviously addresses something that has impacted previous cases. but what happens in that instance? even if you served your time, or even if you came to a plea deal, but you have a conviction on your record, can you go back and ask for it to be re-examined?

>> is that for me? >> i'm sorry, barbara. >> i can answer that one if you like, chris. >> thank you. >> i'm sorry. the rule is anyone in the pipeline may take benefit from a newly announced rule. if somebody has served their time, appeals have run, they're out of luck. if someone is awaiting appeal, they're still in the pipeline and so they get the benefit of that. so if someone has been convicted, it will go back either for a new sentencing, if they were convicted of other counts along with this one, or if this was the only count of conviction, they could get a new trial or their case could be dismissed altogether. >> take us back, if you will, ken, for a minute, and remind us what was at the heart of this case and what mr. fisher was accused of doing. >> reporter: yeah, he was charged with seven counts, this was only one of them. he was accused of violently

attacking a police officer, and was one of the more egregious allegedly members of the group of people that attacked the capitol. this is a significant case against him that will now go forward on these other counts, just not on this one, chris. >> let's talk about the big other news that ken just told us about, barbara, which is monday. monday we are finally getting, i think, what most people would say was the ruling that has been so widely waited for and that is on presidential immunity. tell us the stakes here, what the considerations are for the justices and if you like, why you think they held it to the very end. >> well, i imagine they held it to the very end because there was differences of opinion. i don't think they hold it for the end for a grand finale or to stall or delay. i think it is frustrating they did not act with greater urgency in deciding the case quickly. i imagine there were some different opinions that had to be circulated back and forth to

be able to get this decision ready. i don't think that the court is going to say everything donald trump did was immune from prosecution. i guess that's an example. one to say everything is immune and the case must be dismissed, the other extreme to say nothing is immune and the case may proceed immediately. what i actually expect to happen is for the court to engage in some line drawing here, to be able to decide not only this case, but to give future presidents some guidance as to what kind of behavior will be immune and which can be a criminal. it could be choosing between official conduct and campaign conduct. that could be a possibility. official conduct and personal conduct could be a possibility. and so i think they're going to draw that line in this case, most of the conduct at issue, if not all of it related to donald trump as presidential candidate and not as chief executive of the united states. and i think the one area of potential disagreement is his

conduct with regard to the department of justice in trying to use it as a way to bring credibility to claims of fraud. it could be that there needs to be a hearing for the lower court to address that, which then could be appealed and lead to many, many, more months of appeals. we'll have to see where it comes out. but i think the other option that jack smith has, if there is just a sliver of this case that is potentially immune, he could simply dismiss that conduct and move on with what he has. >> let me go back as well to nbc's ryan reilly, outside the supreme court. he closely follows as anyone knows who watches msnbc the january 6th cases. i just want to get your take on this and the broader impact that you see as someone who has followed these individual cases so very closely, ryan. >> reporter: yeah, i mean, it is going to involve a lot of paper work, but i would say i think prosecutors were prepared for this, just given the -- what

came out of the oral arguments, that this was inevitable. just the other day, january 6th defendant was charged but wasn't charged with the obstruction of an official proceeding, even though under my reading of the alleged acts and in fact his own testimony in the case, which suggested he was well aware of what was happening inside of the building, in normal course you would have probably seen an obstruction charge brought against that individual who is actually someone who hangs out outside of the d.c. jail and has harassed law enforcement officers who were testifying in other cases and was at the capitol himself on january 6th. they didn't bring the obstruction charge which i found interesting. i think a lot of this was preparing for this potential decision that would narrow how this could be used. they could always down the line bring that by indictment against that individual defendant but that wasn't a charge they came up with up-front. i think everyone has been preparing for this, defense attorneys, federal prosecutors, judges. a lot of these cases, when judges are making these sentencings, they are saying i would have sentenced this

individual to this term regardless of what the supreme court did with the fisher decision because they were sort of anticipating this decision which could have narrowed how this could be used. there is an individual who is actually out of jail right now who his own felony charge or out of prison right now whose only felony charge was that obstruction of an official proceeding charge, an individual by the name of larry brock, he was inside of the senate chamber, he had on this military gear and because that was his only felony offense and because this case was sort of pending before the supreme court, he ended up serving what was more than the time that he would have served just for the misdemeanor offenses. so this is basically going to end up i think with a lot of proceedings and a lot of different additional filings in these more than 1400 cases that we have seen work through the system, but while there is more than 200 cases that could potentially be impacted by this, the practical implication is smaller, because a lot of these defendants have already served out their term. so it is not as though you can

go back and get that time back, right? if you already completed your sentence for an obstruction of an official proceeding charge, that is the end of the game for you. there are individuals who haven't served all of that out, who i think will potentially be impacted by this, especially those defendants, that narrow category of defendants, about 52, who that is the only felony charge that they were facing. that's where this impact is really going to center on about 52 defendants who only have that felony offense as well as several other misdemeanors. >> we have just gotten a statement from the senior biden adviser about this ruling. it tells you exactly that these rulings often are not just about the legal, they're very much about the political, and as rhinos as well or better than anybody, this has been a political football and the legitimacy and the prosecution against these january 6th rioters, this is what the statement is from a senior biden adviser, violent insurrectionists and those who encourage them must be held

accountable but donald trump thinks otherwise. just last night trump again defended january 6th, and the insurrectionists who violently assaulted law enforcement officers. today's ruling does not change the fundamental truth that donald trump will always put himself over our democracy. it ties in our other big story of the day which is the debate. there is another one which is really about big business and donald trump, the argument that joe biden made against him for a long time, he has favored the interests of the rich against the working class. there is another decision today by the supreme court, you probably, like most of us, barbara, know it as the she have chevron case. it has long, long been a target of conservatives. it involves of the rights of businesses as they see it.

tell me about chevron and overturning this long time precedence. >> this is an attack not only on the working class, but also on career professionals in government who develop expertise in their field. chevron deference meant that when an administrative agency interprets a rule, as it must, congress delegates to administrative agencies all kinds of rule-making authority. and that these agencies are entitled to interpret their own rules that they made. so, for decades, courts have given deference to those interpretations. that doesn't mean they are binding. they may be overturned. as long as they are reasonable interpretations of those rules, they get deference to those rules. today, you know, part of this idea to dismantle the administrative state, the court has overturned that deference. and it is just going to make it that much harder for agencies like the epa and osha and other

organizations that protect ordinary americans and consumers from protecting the public against the interests of big business. big business, of course, is, you know, the business of business is business is business. they will spew carcinogens into the air. they will taint our waters. they will have unsafe working conditions because they will no longer have deference to these rules that these administrative agencies have set forth. so, this is actually among, you know, legal watchers of government and administrative agencies really significant decision. it is a real blow to the career professional civil service. >> all of the decisions today, including one on homelessness really go to the heart of what both sides in this campaign believe and that is that one of the biggest stakes in november is the ability in the future to appoint the supreme court justices, but today, i think

ryan reilly, ken dilanian and barbara mcquade for being with us and talking about what we saw today, and, again, very big revelation from justice roberts today, the chief justice of the u.s. supreme court, monday is the last day of the term, which means that arguably the most closely watched decision of this term will be coming down on presidential immunity. thank you, all. up next, our other top story today, the presidential debate. the biden campaign resisting calls for him to bow out of the race, amid concern over his performance. while the trump team is claiming victory. we'll talk about what's next. and later, the threat of a third party challenge. we'll look at whether what happened last night gives robert f. kennedy jr. a boost. f. kennedy jr. a boost plaque psoriasis. she thinks her flaky gray patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis.

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this morning, the biden campaign is pushing back against calls for him to leave the race after last night's debate performance, while former president trump unleashed a torrent of provable falsehoods on a variety of issues. biden's stumbling performance struggled to fend off mounting concerns about his ability to serve another four years in the white house. in addition to trump's false claims and biden's at times incoherent responses to questions, things also got personal and some tense exchanges between the two. trump pouncing on biden's delivery and biden taking aim at trump's legal troubles.

>> i really don't know what he said at the end of the sentence, i don't think he knows what he said either. >> how many billions of dollars do you owe in civil penaltys? for molesting a woman in public, for doing a whole range of things, of having sex with a porn star on the night -- while your wife was pregnant? i mean, what are you talking about? you have the morals of an alley cat. >> i didn't have sex with a porn star. >> almost anybody who saw any of this has an opinion about it. this morning, really, what it all comes down to is if and how much voters' views of november may have shifted, especially in that extremely small part of the electorate that will decide the election. nbc news spoke to a group of voters not sold on either candidate in battleground arizona. >> i think what we just witnessed was a feeling i had inside was trump, hell no, he lied through the whole thing,

and biden it is, like, oh, no, he's in bad shape. >> i came to watch to try to watch two relatively sane people talk about what they're going to do for the country. and we got two second-graders having a slugfest on the playground. >> joining us now nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli live from raleigh, north carolina, where president biden is holding a campaign event today. nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard is in atlanta. okay, mike, you heard it, hell no versus oh, no. a couple of grade schoolers. i'm just wondering what you're hearing from inside the biden camp right now. what do they see as their path forward? >> reporter: president biden is often fond of quoting his father. in a moment like this, it is relevant. when you get knocked down, you got to get back up. as the program continues behind

me for this rally in north carolina, a critical battleground state where the biden team thinks they can go on offense and pick up a trump 2020 state, viewers have an important opportunity for president biden here to begin to reassure democrats that last night may not have been perfect, but that it is not really indicative of where his candidacy is going forward. we heard in the initial moments last night as the president was stumbling out of the gate that, listen, he had a cold, they acknowledged he was raspy and he wasn't starting strong. after the debate, we heard from a number of campaign officials up to and including the vice president of the united states saying we're not going to sugar coat this, the president didn't start strong but they felt like he finished strong and more importantly donald trump in all the research that they are seeing was also turning off voters as they heard from him as well. the biden campaign this morning is stating on the record emphatically that the president absolutely not will be stepping aside from his candidacy here, that it is full speed ahead and they're also indicating there might be a bit of a disconnect

between some of the anonymous chatter we're hearing from party establishment figures about the panic frankly that has set in with what the grassroots supporters of this president are saying. the campaign just announcing the last few minutes they raised $14 million, both last night and in the early hours of today, and that they believe that, listen, this event last night may not have changed minds for the better but we're in the status quo and we know they have a lot of work still to go ahead. >> i think as a fact check it was not anonymous chatter, a lot of people who are high up in not just democratic party circles, but people who have said that they love, respect and support the president, but they think last night was a bigger problem than he clearly thinks it is. but, vaughn, donald trump is also on the trail today. look, donald trump's mo is whatever happened last night, he was going to claim victory. i'm wondering how they're feeling, especially given the headlines today. >> reporter: they're feeling

exceedingly great and confident coming out of this debate. this is what they were hoping for. and they believed their candidate was going to be able to do when he was standing eight feet away from joe biden for 90 minutes. this was a campaign that he feels validated in many ways, there have been right wing outlets, the biden camp itself that have clipped videos of joe biden over the last year that suggested that he did not have the physical or mental stamina for the presidency, for a second term. and they made the case that last night was evidence of that. and that the clear contrast on the durability of the individual standing on stage should be a sign to millions of americans who watch of who should go into office for a second term. of course, most americans have become more immune, if you will, to many of the lies that donald trump has told. he repeatedly told falsehoods yesterday. republican party around him,

unlike the consternation you hear from the democratic party about the performance of joe biden, the republican party over the last eight years is largely stepped away from speaking out against donald trump as its party leader over the misrepresentations, from abortion, to january 6th, to the criminal indictments that he faces. but the reality here is for the trump campaign that even coming into this debate, they felt like they were in strong position, polling wide, when you compare it to four years ago, and they feel like that two weeks away from the republican national convention, without even having announced a vice presidential candidate, they feel like coming out of a guilty verdict in which they feel like the polling did not overwhelmingly shift against their presumptive republican nominee they feel like they're in a good position here. donald trump has a rally in virginia, south of norfolk, in three hours from now. he has nothing else formally on the docket until his sentencing on july 11th in lower manhattan,

chris. >> vaughn hillyard, mike memoli, thank you. with more on this, i want to bring in symone sanders townsend, co-host of "the weekend" here on msnbc and former republican governor of ohio john kasich, who is an msnbc political analyst. okay. look, i know you're on the phones all last night, it sounds like listening to mike that they're kind of downplaying this. this is what you have to say on the record? are they in denial? or is this genuinely they think this is being way overstated? how real do you think these calls are for joe biden to be replaced. >> i think two things can be true at the same time, right? there is the reality, i think of it as the reality of how some democrats are feeling after seeing that debate performance last night, which was not good. he did get progressively better over the course of the debate, but it started low, the bar was low. and then he was totally different person at the watch party after, and i was watching,

like, where was this joe biden on the debate stage? the reality of how some democrats are feeling and those are mostly from what i gathered, these are elected officials who have house dems, people on the ballot this cycle, operatives who have advised campaigns and then there is also the reality of the situation. the reality of the situation is what the campaign is speaking to, the campaign, i said, is joe biden dropping out, i called the -- they said, no, i called up to the convention folks today, are you preparing for a new nominee? we are not. >> let me ask you this, you know these folks, and they were obviously concerned enough that at midnight last night, your old boss, the vice president of the united states came on our air, right and acknowledged -- >> it was a slow start, but a strong finish. okay, yeah. >> okay. you mentioned the house dems. joe biden, people who know him will tell you, genuine patriot, cares about and actually did run

because he cares about the future of the country. is the senate imperiled if he stays on the ballot? is the house imperiled? and maybe are there people who are involved in that, who are worried about what this means down ballot? >> so, i have heard -- >> it is not just about him, right? >> it is not just about him. i heard, look, last night there were house democrats, front liners, again, folks in some of the most vulnerable and competitive districts who are democrats this cycle, and then the new dems, they have their own individual meetings to get together amongst themselves to figure out what they would like to say to the campaign and what they like to think to talk. >> this is a big enough deal -- >> it was not a good debate performance. the debate where folks are coming in to say, you're going to see the contrast between the two candidates, the contrast on the performance side was joe biden didn't seem to be there with the performance. it got better over the course of the night, but the contrast wasn't what folks were expecting and that's what i heard from democrats. and so there are house

democrats, you have to remember, for folks at home, there are -- every single member of the house represents is up for re-election. there are 11 governors that will be chosen, new governors, north carolina being one of them, hence why joe biden is in north carolina today. and a lot of those down ballot races, these candidates are running ahead of the president. and so what i heard from front line members last night and some of the new dems and people and some senior democratic leadership is that, hey, we want to preserve our numbers, the best scenario for democrats particularly in the house this cycle is in fact that the house democrats continue to keep their numbers where they are. so if they're looking at this debate performance, they want to know what is the campaign going to do, they thought they did not hear enough forward future conversation. they heard a lot from the president in the beginning of the debate about the past and what i heard in the first commercial break, because the members was on the phone, chris, they were, like, hey, i said what do you think, we don't think he's talking enough about

the future. when i asked the campaign about that, they said, hey, toward the end of the debate, he did. this is why what the voters think matters here. because the voter reaction is going to be very, i think, slightly different. we have seen from the focus groups already, from people who are watching it and am interested to see what people over the course of the next couple of days say, it is different from some of the campaign professionals, the elected officials who know better, who have been keyed in, who knew what to expect from joe biden. some of these voters are, like, everybody seemed old, i heard reaction that said, well, some people didn't answer the questions, joe biden seemed a little flummoxed. other folks, like the focus group who said, oh, no, and oh. >> did the number of double hater grows last night and will they stay home? a lot of -- will they go to a third party candidate? let me get you in here, governor kasich. because, look, you said weeks ago you would not be surprised if joe biden didn't end up being the nominee. tell me what you see happening

next in the real world. it is easy in the aftermath of something like this for everybody to get worked up, and for a lot of things to be said, but i saw you on the campaign trail in the midst of chaos often, a voice of reason, give us the voice of reason, what do you see? >> well, first of all, i stand by the comments i made several weeks ago, people who were on air with me thought i was -- >> you were crazy, yeah. >> coming out of left field. turns out to be true. i talked to some very prominent democrats today. they're now -- it is a two-step process. one is, they don't think that joe biden ought to stay. they think he needs to step away. they want to praise him for what he's done and who he is. but they don't think he can carry the torch. secondly, then the question gets to be well, then, who takes his place. and that's a matter of who is going to have the -- who is going to have the standing, who is going to fit, where people can say, yeah, i sort of know that person, i respect that

person, i think they could step in, and that will happen only if joe biden is able to bless that person, whoever it might be. if biden decides he's not going to leave, he's going to stay and take this to the very end, he'll -- they're not going to take him out. this has to be -- look, what is happening is there are a group of democrats who are meeting and talking and deciding who can approach the staff, who can approach him to let him know that they don't think that he can do this. the problem last night was that he -- he just -- people -- a lot of people who saw this thought, you know, he's not up to it. i mean, good man, but he's just not up to this. and this is not -- this, for me, is not a happy day. this is a sad day for our country. to see what the heck happened last night, and i appreciate what symone is saying, i've been kind of calling this out for a

long time. i can't even believe they decided to do that debate. i don't even understand what they were thinking, because he had so much trouble with these kind -- with this kind of a situation. look, i think the democrats are now gathering, i know that they are, their senior members that are talking and trying to figure out next step. step one -- >> let me ask you this, because, again, i think in the aftermath, a lot of people would say, take a breath. some people said on our air, take a breath. the trump campaign, a lot of folks thought it was done, with the " "access hollywood" tape, john fetterman, near fatal stroke, difficult debate, still having difficulty communicating. both of them were elected. is this different? i mean, we live in this 15-minute -- and that may be an exaggeration -- news cycle where

people move on to the next thing. maybe, who knows after the fourth of july, this is old news, this is history. people saying did that actually just happen last month? >> yeah, i don't think so in this case. and, look, as, again, i'm talking to democrats, i'm not talking to republicans today about what has happened. i had a number of friends i served with, got along with a lot of democrats and didn't always agree with them, i had good relations. they're in panic mode. there is not two ways to think about it. look at "the new york times" today, tom friedman coming out and saying he needs to step aside. the media is beginning to say he has to go. i don't know how they get past this moment. and, look, i feel terrible for everybody involved here. but he just doesn't have the stamina, he doesn't have the get up and go to be able to do this for four more years and i think when people see this, i talked to a number of democrats and said they watched the thing for

20 minutes, not a number, but one democrat in particular, they watched it for 20 minutes, turned offer the television and couldn't sleep all night. this is a really serious matter. but nothing will ultimately happen if joe biden decides no, i'm not going anywhere. i'm going to hang in there, i'm just going to do this. it is, like i say, there is no celebration here for me. i don't like to see any of this. i'm sad for my country. >> nobody does. but -- i'm going to get in so much trouble with my executive producer because we're -- we have breaking news, i'm going to give you 30 seconds, how does joe biden move forward, symone? >> i think he has to have a show of strength, from him, himself, which is why north carolina is important today, but also they have to bring the coalition together. the elected officials are going to be very important here. the house democrats, members of the congress, have to be willing to go out and so -- >> talk him down off the ledge. >> exactly.

is the campaign talking him off the ledge today? the campaign has to go out and talk to them. i'll say this, the -- i asked very directly, is the president considering dropping out and i was told no. i said are the people around the president urging him to do so, i was told no. outside people are, like, no, he can't do it, but people at the white house and the campaign say that's not a consideration they're looking at. >> symone and john, to say the least, an important discussion with the future of the this country on the line. i thank you both for your seriousness and your insights. appreciate it. up next, we'll talk to congressman robert garcia, a member of the advisory board for president biden who was in the spin room last night. we'll get his reaction to biden's performance and the calls for him to bow out of the race. plus, former president donald trump repeatedly swung the debate back to the border battle.

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take a listen. >> we had the safest border in the history of our country. because of his ridiculous insane and very stupid policies, people are coming in and they're killing our citizens. at a level we have never seen -- we call it migrant crime. i call it biden migrant crime. >> every single thing he says is a lie. every single one. >> joining us to break down the claims, nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley. help us fact check what we heard. is biden right? is trump wrong here? >> the way trump is using this is very hyperbolic to say he had the safest border in the history of the united states. that's typical of the way he speaks. if you're going to define a safe border as a low number of border crossings, that doesn't pass the smell test. we have seen over each administration the numbers getting larger. the obama administration had fewer border crossers, trump in 2019 before the covid-19

pandemic brought those numbers down had nearly 900,000 border crossings in that year. that was far more than anything ever seen under the biden -- under the obama administration. and, yes, it is far higher undid under biden. that's just comparing the two. to say he had the safest in history is false. also when you talk about migrant crime, there are detailed migrant crimes. migrants, undocumented in the u.s. commit fewer crimes per capita than u.s. citizens. one other thing i have to point to today, we have some immigration news from the biden administration, they just designated temporary protective status for immigrants from haiti because of all the violence in that country. this is something we understand that they wanted to roll out on june 3rd, with the asylum restrictions, to show they could be tough on immigration, new immigration coming across the southern border, while trying to

show some ease on those living here fleeing violence in haiti. but advocates wanted those to be two separate things. they're rolling that out today. it could affect 500,000 haitians already living in the u.s. to keep them from being deported to that violent country. you may not hear about it a lot today because of debate, but that's a big deal for that community. >> thank you so much, julia. let me bring in democratic congressman robert garcia from california. a member of the hispanic caucus and part of the biden campaign's national advisory board. i want to talk about immigration. it was interesting to hear what both candidates had to say last night. let me go back because i know you were waiting and listening to what symone and governor kasich had to say. i assume people are coming to you from within your party and suggesting maybe time to think about joe biden stepping down. what are you saying to them? >> look, i think quite the opposite. it might be some chatter in the political class, but at the end of the day, i just came off the floor of the house. this party is united behind joe

biden. joe biden is a nominee and will be our nominee, end of story. he's the only person in this country that has defeated donald trump once, he's going to defeat donald trump again. so, there is going to be some chatter, that's fine. >> to be fair, to be fair, congressman, it is more than chatter, isn't it? there are people who love joe biden, respect joe biden, even worked to help get joe biden elected who are suggesting now this is not four years ago. that he's a different person now on that stage than he was four years ago. are their concerns legit? >> i don't have concerns. we saw the president before the debate. we see him in action on the campaign trail and the white house. he's been the most productive president of the modern era, the most progressive president of the modern era, he has an enormous list of accomplishments. look at the economy. coming back from covid. infrastructure, gun safety

reform, lowering the price of insulin, what people want is results. and they're going to have a binary choice. look, joe biden had a raspy throat last night, we all heard that. who cares? i want to make sure we don't have an insurrectionist, a con man, and a criminal that is donald trump back in the white house. and that's what voters are going to make a decision about. look, next few days, the president will be out on the campaign trail, we will all be out on the campaign trail. i'm confident the one person who beat donald trump will beat him again. >> i think beyond the raspy throat, which would be not very serious, there was a coherence issue. let me just play this, because president biden got what as most people saw as a slam dunk question about abortion and he could have and many people say should have delivered a knockout punch, but seemed to pivot to immigration. i'll play that right now. >> look, there are so many young women, including the young woman just murdered and he went to the

funeral. the idea that she was murdered by an immigrant coming in. talk about that. here's the deal, there is a lot of young women to be raped by their in-laws, by their spouses, brothers and sisters, by -- just ridiculous. >> that's the kind of answer that has many democrats concerned. but i saw a headline in today's orange county registrar, that's south of your district, saying that southern california voters went into the debate looking for answers on immigration and what they got was a muddle. is that fair and how does joe biden answer those concerns in the coming days and weeks? >> well, again, i think voters are first and foremost was donald trump lying and lying and lying. i want to also just reiterate, donald trump once again inadulted latinos and immigrants in the debate. he somehow said that immigrants have creates a rats nest in this

country, that we're now an uncivilized country, i think was his exact quote. because somehow there are immigrants here. he continues to offend, to essentially dehumanize our community over and over again, and he did it last night. i want to be very clear about what donald trump said. president biden has time and time again, with the executive order that he did, of course, just last week, providing a pathway for half a million americans in this country and the work he's done supports our community. and so that was very clear. donald trump's record on immigration is horrific. all he does is insult our community every single chance he gets. i think latino voters overwhelmingly are going to support joe biden, i think there's been evidence, looking at some of the even focus groups after the debate the latino voters thought joe biden actually did a great job. >> congressman robert garcia, we really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today, thank you. and up next, the rfk junior factor, how many people will give him a second look after

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president biden and former president trump both on the campaign trail today following last night's debate. next hour, joe biden set to attend a campaign rally. we've been showing you these pictures from raleigh, north carolina. later this afternoon trump will be in virginia beach as we wait to see whether he'll announce his decision on who he will choose as his running mate. joining us brendan buck,