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arimelber.com. have a great weekend. "the reidout" starts now. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> donald trump isn't just a convicted felon. donald trump is a one-man crime wave. he's got more trials. he's got more trials coming up. [ crowd chanting lock him up ] >> a much different fired up joe biden showed up today in north carolina following last night's poor debate performance. also, the abomination of today's supreme court rulings on the insurrectionists and government regulation. as trump's justices wait until the last possible moment to reveal their decision on presidential immunity.

and we begin tonight one evening after the first presidential debate with president biden coming out swinging, admitting to some performance fumbles but declaring himself as the defender of democracy and the man for the job in a fiery speech in raleigh, north carolina, today. >> i know how to tell the truth. i know -- i know right from wrong. and i know how to do this job. i know how to get things done. and i know like millions of americans know, when you get knocked down, you get back up. >> okay, why didn't the biden campaign send that guy to the debate last night? it wasn't just the president and those north carolina crowds. biden's surrogates like

california governor gavin newsom and transportation secretary pete buttigieg and even former president barack obama have been out in full force, rallying around the president and trying to refocus nervous democrats and the social media universe that whatever you thought of biden's debate performance last night, a couple things are just true. thing one, joe biden is going to be the nominee, replacing him as the nominee while it is a topic of heated conversation in many a group chat and many of our phones, is not happening. and thing two is that in all of the uproar over biden's performance, what has gotten lost admittedly including by those of us in the media is the other guy who was on that debate stage last night, the convicted criminal who with zero fact checking or journalistic pushback from the moderators said stuff unimpeded like this. >> i just won two club championships, not even senior, two regular club championships. to do that, you have to be quite smart, and you have to be able

to hit the ball a long way. and i do it. he doesn't do it. he can't hit a ball 50 yards. >> how many billions of dollars do you owe in civil penalties for molesting a woman in public, for doing a whole range of things, of having sex with a porn star on the night while your wife was pregnant. i mean, what are you talking about? you have the morals of an alley cat. >> i didn't have sex with a porn star. >> okay, so out of all the accusations that biden laid out right there, i probably would have protested the one and say that i did not molest a woman in public. but you know, that's just me. instead, we have a former u.s. president saying on live tv with millions of people watching, as the fate of our country looms, that he did not have sex with a porn star. not the rape stuff, he didn't deny that, just the porn star. welcome to american politics, everybody. trump also refused on several

occasions to address policy even when directly asked about it. and he avoided answering any questions, but most of all, trump lied. >> we had the greatest economy in the history of our country. >> they will take the life of a child in the eighth month, the ninth month, and even after birth. and nancy pelosi, if you watched the news from two days ago, on tape to her daughter, who is a documentary filmmaker, like they say, she's saying oh, no, it's my responsibility. i was responsible for this, because i offered her 10,000 soldiers or national guard and she turned them down. he wants to raise your taxes by four times. they're taking black jobs and hispanic jobs. on january 6th, we were respected all over the world. all over the world we were respected. >> you know, no, we were not respected on january 6th, nor during the trump presidency. and the attack on the capitol was the deadliest assault on the seat of american power in over 200 years. this isn't about shades of gray

or lies versus untruths versus falsehoods. everything you just heard from donald trump is an egregious lie. the pandemic triggered a massive recession. the government borrowed $3.1 trillion in 2020 to stabilize the economy, no states allow people to execute babies after birth. it is illegal in every state to do so and it's called infanticide. speaker pelosi did not direct the national guard. during the coup, she and mitch mcconnell called for military assistance, including from the national guard. trump did nothing. biden will quadruple taxes in total -- biden quadrupling taxes is total fiction, he's going to let the tax cut for superrich people to expire. he won't raise taxes on anyone who makes under $400,000. there is no evidence undocumented immigrants are taking jobs away from black americans. there's no such thing as black jobs. trump lied dozens and dozens of

times and those lies went unchecked by cnn moderators and at times unfortunately by president biden. yes, it is widely believed president biden didn't do well. he didn't do well, but trump didn't do well either. he didn't gain any new voters last night. he did nothing to gain new voters. he did nothing but offer what non-maga americans already know, he's a morally bankrupt convicted felon who turned the word palestinian into a slur on the national stage, in terms of the hand wringing and the fallout, it is easy to just listen to the professionals, the pundits, the op-ed writers, the screaming headlines and those of us on the tv, but it's also important to listen to what regular people say and what they want. >> feeling inside was, trump, hell no. he lied through the whole thing. and biden is like, oh, no. he is really in a bad shape. i mean, trump is an absolute no.

he's a liar and a thief and a rapist and all those other things. it's just not acceptable. you don't lie and you take accountability for yourself. at least biden is that way. he seems like an honorable and honest guy, but i don't think he's got the stamina. >> i thought he stumbled. you know, it happens. i thought trump was unhinged for 90 straight minutes. so i think comparing that little stumble from biden to like, you know, racist rantings for 90 minutes, it's like there's no comparison. >> joining me now is david plouffe, msnbc political analyst and former obama campaign manager and michael steele, former chair of the republican national committee, cohost of the weekend on msnbc, and host of the michael steele podcast. thank you both for being here. david, you're the person -- you guys, this is actually the panel, my dream panel for today. i feel like you guys can both talk me down and give me real

reality. we talked last night. you were on our super show last night and you were very honest about how president biden did. but isn't it important for us to step back just a tiny bit? because regular people don't view it the way we view it. they're not in the business you are. they're not in the media business. they're regular people, and it did seem when you listen to the focus group people that they weren't as freaked out as professional democrats are. is that valid? >> we'll find out. within five to six days or so, we'll have a lot of research, public, but also private. so to talk you down a little bit, i mean, i do think trump did not gain anything last night. he was horrific. there's a trag edin that because he didn't pay the full price for being so horrific. i think he's kind of close to his vote ceiling. there's not much more for him to gain. this is a race joe biden can win. i think he's going to be the nominee, unless he decides a week from now that it just doesn't look winnable, i don't think that will be the case. we have reached the place where

there's likely another candidate, probably would be the stronger candidate, younger, different. but joe biden can win this race. and i think what voters are going to process is he's now on probation. but he doesn't have many opportunities to get off probation, as it relates to his fitness for office. speeches help, but not many people see these speeches. today was great, but the voters we need probably didn't see it. the convention doesn't reach many voters outside of the party, and we would have another debate. trump may not debate again. i think biden should do as many interviews as he can, youtube influencers, tiktok influencers. what he said today, what barack obama said today, what bill clinton said today is, hey, people have bad debates but let's look at the contrast, the values, the records. i think this is not just about having a bad debate. the biggest question about biden this entire campaign have been voters, not maga voters, swing voters, base voters saying we're concerned about his fitness.

he exacerbated things last night, but he has time to overcome them. bill clinton famously said this as one point i think in the '90s, a lot of times voters will choose strong and wrong over weak and right. that's what voters got last night. there's a lot to do with trump's debate performance in ads, in surrogate work to really pound in, not just the line, he wouldn't answer questions about child care, about the opioid crisis, because it was all about himself. that narcissism, so the race is kind of different than it was pre-debate, and i think biden was trailing narrowly. we may see polls that show him down more, but i don't think it's because trump is going to go from 48 to 54. my guess is biden will go down and he has an opportunity to get the voters back. >> trump does feel like there's a lid to this. people aren't going to listen to him, what i was thinking last night as i'm watching it is the biden thing was uncomfortable to watch him sometimes, but every time trump spoke, i thought that's a lie, that's a lie.

it was so frustrating watching the journalists, the two moderators say nothing, as he literally said things like, aborting a baby after birth. that's like physically impossible. that's like saying i'm going to jump in the pool and once i'm in the water i'm going to abort my jump in the pool. i'm already in the pool. you can't abort something that's already done. he just said it, and so anyway. you're kind of moving forward, there have been people who have come out swinging. barack obama came out today, bad debate nights happen, trust me, i know. this is still a choice between someone who fought for ordinary folks his entire life, between someone who tells the truth and right and wraungs, and someone who lies through his teeth for his own benefit. that's why so much is at stake in november. gavin newsom gave his lord of there rings speech last night. we don't have 49 seconds to play it, but it was like lord of the rings. he came in hot. is that what it takes? is it surrogates, is it

something else? kamala harris, too, vp harris came out strong as well. >> you know, david may disagree with me a little bit on this, but i think it's more than that. i think it's biden. i think it has to be him. i think it has to be him in a big way. i thought today was a good day. that translates to about 49 million people last night. so there's a lot of room here. there are well over 100 plus million voters he can go after. here's the thing, i think in many respects, that has to happen. folks need to calm down. democrats need to check themselves. all this talk about replacing him is not going to happen. joe biden is not going to make that move. the first lady is not going to encourage him to make that move. at least that's my assessment at this point.

then the question becomes, what do you do? you turn to guys like david, turn to guys like carvel, you turn to seasoned veterans who understand what this moment is like and what it is about. but most importantly, what it is not. right? this is not a capitulation to the right. this is not a fall down by the president that absolutely breaks his chances. the president says today, i'm back up. and he looked the country in the eye and said, okay, that was really messed up last night. i don't walk as well as i used to, and my words sometimes slur. but i'm never going to lie to you. i'm never going to put you in harm's way. i'm not going to turn the flag on my home upside down. i'm not going to run roughshod against your values, your culture and your lived experience in this great nation. i think that's a powerful message for him. but the party has to rally around that message and let him do it. damnit, get out of the man's way. let him make the little

mistakes. free him up. he was free today. last night, he was prepped to hell with data and information that he was sitting there, you could see him processing, okay, was it 40% or was it three doughnuts? it's crazy. it's crazy. so let the man just do his thing. because the country needs him to do it. >> you know -- >> the country needs him to do it. let him do it. >> you know what, he is overstaffed. the thing, if you think about it, even with vice president harris, they gave us ten minutes with her. she could do 30 easily. she has it in her. and even with president biden, it seems like the sort of way that the white house has responded, not the white house, really the campaign, has responded to the age issue is to kind of hide him a little bit and have him not do -- shouldn't he go out more? if people saw him all the time, then each time you saw him, it wouldn't be so jarring. we all have aging relatives. if you see them all the time,

you see it as a gradual process. if you only see them once every few months, it's shocking. so maybe the answer is that he needs to do more so that people can kind of just get used to his gait and how he is. >> by the way, the part about the speech, i don't walk as well as i used to, the words don't come as easy. that would have made an amazing closing statement. >> and he should have picked going last. >> they have to flood had zone now. first, it's not like it will be worse than last night. michael makes an important point. about 100 million people who are going to vote didn't watch the debate. that means they're going to experience the memes can clips. it's important to understand, do they view it differently than those who watch. it's an opportunity to get on tiktok, get on youtube, get on local news. whether it's harris, the other surrogates, we have democratic governors in just about every battleground state. but i think the president should be out there, and yes, he's going to make mistakes. just embrace it. as he did today y think that's

really smart. but listen, when you're down today, and that was the most powerful part of his speech when he said you get back up. which he's often talked about. >> that's one of my favorite gospel songs. >> he said his father taught him back in scranton. at the end of the day, that feistiness, not hiding from what happened and making it about people. they led into the debate clearly trying to telegraph this is about joe biden fighting for people, that did not get executed last night. but that doesn't mean it can't get executed today and tomorrow and in the coming weeks. so that i think is the mission, but yes, i think that, you know, whatever it is, by 5 or 7 or 8x, they have to be out there and take some risks. i think that it normalizes it in a way, but it also shows him fighting. and i think that's one of the things that came through in the event today. he was fighting. you know, but he was also honest. so we'll see. listen, i think the important thing is in michigan and wisconsin and pennsylvania and

arizona and nevada, has the race fundamentally changed again? my suspicion is trump's number can't go up much more than it is, but you may see biden's number go down and may see people flake to rfk and third party candidates. that doesn't mean it can't come back. biden still has to find a way to gain another couple points. that's doable. we're not talking about 20 points, but that's where the race stands. >> we're going to keep michael and david. for more on last night's debate and looking ahead to november's election. "the reidout" continues after this. to give golo a try. taking the release supplement i noticed a change within the first week and each month the weight just kept coming off. with golo you can keep the weight off.

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folks, i give you my word as a biden, i would not be running again if i did not believe i could do this job. quite frankly, the stakes are too high. the stakes are too high. [ chanting yes you can ] >> donald trump, donald trump is a genuine threat to this nation. he's a threat to our freedom. he's a threat to our democracy. he's literally a threat to everything america stands for. >> back with me are david plouffe and michael steele. michael steele, how does president biden get this back to

a referendum on trump? which seems like the right place for it to be for him. >> since donald trump is very familiar with indictments, load up some indictments. indict him on everything he's done during his presidency and since. lay it out there, plain and simple. you don't have to sugar coat it because it is what it is. it tells the story of the man who wants to be a dictator. it tells the story of a man who does not value the very sanctity of what this country stands for. so much so that they want to deconstruct the administrative state. they have a supreme court that is freely doing that. so okay, you know when donald trump wins, probably two supreme court justices will step down. >> probably? they will. >> thomas and alito. when they do, the 40 something-year-old replacement is sitting, sitting there waiting. god knows what else happens

after that. so democrats need to start thinking strategically about this. put their politics and their strategy together to go after this guy. and don't get tripped up on the ings that they want you to get tripped up on, like oh, he's old and feeble. yeah, so are you. but at least he didn't try to overthrow the government. at least he didn't pardon criminals, known criminals. at least he did not put in jeopardy the people that are at harm -- that put this nation at harm's risk. i think that's an important message for the president to put out there and to stop worrying so much. just do it. >> yeah, the thing is, the difference between democrats and republicans, democrats worrying is part of the dna, how you become a democrat, you have lots of anxiety as a younger person. but you are somebody who is quite expert at running innovative campaigns for people.

i mean, you literally ran a campaign for a black man named barack hussein obama. okay, and he got elected. he's brilliant, but it took also strategy to say how do i take this unusual candidate who is not a typical candidate in america and get him over the finish line in this country with its history. that's a huge deal and i'm giving you that credit for a reason. one of the innovative things you did was this barbershop campaign. my buddy came up with a brilliant idea, and you went into the barbershops and that's not a place we normally campaign. donald trump tried to replicate that. can i show you this? do we have this? we don't have it. okay, so donald trump tried to do his barbershop thing in georgia. what he did is he had people who were not from georgia including byron donalds from florida and ben carson who lives in florida and is from michigan sit in a barbershop and he called in.

completely disrespectful to black people. he said things about frank sinatra's mugshot was not as good as mine. so the trump people don't have a good campaign strategy either. because they're trying to rip off obama tactics but doing it in a sad, pathetic, disrespectful way. so they're not the problem. democrats need some innovative strategies to run a very old guy. what's one? >> i think, first of all, listen, barack obama was a great candidate. very generous credit, but as you know, it was all about those volunteers. >> they were fanatical. >> i think biden has an advantage there. they have offices in more important staff linof these battleground states trump doesn't. they're working barbershops, factory floors, diners. and that matters. you want human to human conversation. i think every race is different. you have to accept basically most americans are disappointed with their choice. even some democrats are disappointed with their choice. biden is not the political

athlete obama was or clinton or even he was four years ago, but that's the race you have. i think michael is right. biden should every day talk about my walk has changed. i don't speak as well. i'm a great president, but i'm the only thing standing in the way. and everybody needs to embrace that, because you're meeting people where they are. he is not -- joe biden is not most people's candidate out of central casting anymore. he's been an amazing president. let's just embrace that. but it's the only ride out of town to prevent trump from winning. i think everybody can rally around that. and i think that's important. but and then the social media, i think, trump does worry me a little bit. he himself is on tiktok. republicans have an advantage on youtube for several cycles now. trump natively understands facebook and instagram. biden has smart people working on this. the people that will decide this election, that's the windshield

they look at the world through. not "the new york times," not msnbc, it is their tiktok feed, youtube, influencers. so they have already done a lot there. but i would intensify that with kamala harris, with barack obama, with athletes, anybody. talk to influencers, and by the way, don't try and say he should be on mount rushmore. just say this is it. we need to be grown-ups here. it's either him or trump. >> it's literally, you go to a dinner and your choices are steak or a pile of poo. this is not a difficult choice. pick the steak. for the love of god. >> please pick the steak. >> for the love of god. >> and biden likes his steaks medium, not like well done crisp. >> with ketchup on them. he doesn't even know how to make steak, donald trump. that's it, y'all. these are your choices. it's a binary choice. you need to make it. and you get a barack obama if you're lucky once in your lifetime. you almost never get a barack

obama. it is -- you ain't getting that every time. thank you both very much. >> as we await the supreme court's trump immunity decision, the trump showed their true colors limiting obstruction charges for an insurrectionist and overturning a legal precedent. we'll be right back. ack. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with all the money i saved i thought i'd buy stilts.

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as we like to say on this show, elections have consequences and we continue to live under the reign of a supreme court brought to you by the 2016 election and donald trump. over the past few weeks the leonard leo six have obliterated precedents and they're being celebrated by republicans, giant corporations and donors including leonard leo and the koch foundation. on wednesday, they made political corruption easier, all in the name of deregulation. on thursday, they said the epa can't tell polluter states and businesses that they can't pollute the air of their neighbors. today, they told america's homeless population actual human beings that they have less protections than polluters or quasi-machine guns which are now perfectly legal. the leo court said it's not cruel and unusual punishment to fine these most vulnerable citizens for sleeping on public property even if they have nowhere else to go or any money

to pay those fines. you want to know what is crucial and unusual punishment to this court? take a look at the people who stormed the capitol. this court thinks charging them with obstruction of an official proceeding is just too broad and unfair. i guess that's what you can expect from a court that has two justices whose spouses either openly or tacitly endorse the insurrection. all this is bad, really bad. but the worst thing the leonard leo six did today was to obliterate a 40-year-old foundational precedent known as chevron deference which will basically end the government's ability to regulate the environment, and consumer protections. joining us is elie mystal. what is chevron deference and long may it rest? >> yeah, so okay, people understand that congress passes the laws and the president enforces the law. so congress passes a law. let's say it's called the clean water act. and then the president through the executive agency of the epa

defines what the clean water act actually means. now, people at home might say, oh, why can't congress define it? congress doesn't define words like clean. and congress doesn't define words like water. so who is going to make the decision as to how much lead is actually allowed to be in the water before it's clean? >> experts? >> who is going to make the decision about what constitutes water? is it a pool, a puddle, is it a river, a lake? who gets to make that decision? >> experts? >> the last 40 years it's been experts at the epa, but as of today, the only people entrusted to make that decision according to the supreme courts is the supreme court. so what we saw today was the supreme court making the biggest power grab over our elected government since really the founding, since 1803, when the supreme court invented the idea of calling laws unconstitutional, which is not actually in the constitution. since then, this is the next

hugest thing. because what the supreme court is saying that it can do the job that the constitution gives to the president of the united states. >> hold up. hold up. so you're saying that in the clean water act, rather than the agency like the epa, which has experts in clean and water, the supreme court will decide what clean and walter are? >> yes. >> the supreme court now gets to overrule the epa's decision on what constitutes clean water, where the water is supposed to go, it's the same with clean air, the supreme court now gets to oefr rule the epa on how much carbon monoxide is be in the air, how much nitrous oxide, oh, wait, nitrous oxide is laughing gras. and neil gorsuch got that wrong yesterday. put today, in a different opinion, neal goresuch, who yesterday did not know the

difference between laughing gas and smog, says he and his court are the only people allowed to decide what the epa is allowed to regulate with the air. >> i feel like the way this is going to go, because when they did, for instance, the ruling on bump stocks, clarence thomas just lifted the description of bump stocks from a right-wing pro-gun organization, and dropped that in. and said basically the people who said this is not a machine gun don't know what they're talking about because that organization did. when you say the supreme court is now going to decide, doesn't that mean the big corporations who they like, the rich people they like, and the right wing organizations that they like, that's really who's going to decide, right? >> yes, people on harlan crow's yacht that are going to decide what's allowed to be in water or not. look, this is why they did it. what's going to happen now is that any regulation the supreme court likes, that will be upheld. any regulation the supreme court doesn't like, that will be overturned.

and that is what they told us they could do. again, this is not in the constitution. there's no constitutional clause or power that gives the supreme court this right. they aggrandized it to themselves and took it away from the president and took it away from congress. >> okay, let's talk about this obstruction of an official proceeding. how much does that matter, and does it affect trump? >> it matters, i don't know that it affects trump. john roberts' opinion, he tried to narrow it somewhat. he basically said you can't be charged with obstruction unless the kind of obstruction you did is similar to the obstruction enron did, essentially, destroying documents and whatever. which inspired the law in the first place. i personally don't know if white domestic terrorists covering the capitol in feces is something that, did they obscure any official documents? that apparently is a factual question, according to john roberts. he's not sure so i can't be

sure. he limited the decision in that way. that might not directly impact trump because trump did obscure documents and put up fake electors and whatever. i don't know that it will affect trump, but as you know, monday is actually what we're waiting for. >> how bad is this going to be on monday? are they going to give him immunity from all prosecution? >> again, they just said they're kings and queens and can rule over the epa and the sec and all these other things. i'm pretty sure now if they don't give him full immunity, they'll give him enough. >> they'll say the constitution said in the early 18th century, donald trump is immune from all prosecution. but nobody else. >> what needs to happen is that homeless people who are now criminalized for being homeless, what they need to do is storm the capitol, sleep there, and say actually, we're just in the capitol to support donald trump, then it won't be illegal. >> or use some of the money they get, if people drop money in

their coins as a gratuity, because the bribing is okay. >> homeless people love to get gratuities. >> up next, our favorite historian, michael beschloss is joining us. after a week like this, there is no one else i want here to put everything in perspective. we'll be right back.

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historically had their bad moments frn one of the candidates, including these from gerald ford and president barack obama. >> there is no soviet domination of eastern europe, and there never will be under a ford administration. >> now, the last point i would make, before -- >> ten minutes is up. >> i think i had five seconds before you interrupted me. the irony is that we have seen this model work really well. >> the consensus from the media and pundit class after president obama's first debate is he had gotten trounced by mitt romney. ford went on to lose his election to jimmy carter after that flub, and we all know president obama was re-elected by like five million votes. the real question is how much do these debates really matter? it is wonderful to have a historian friend around in times like this. joining me is nbc news presidential historian and friend of the show, michael

beschloss. in the end, does it matter? >> well, that was your hometown of denver that debate. i was in the hall. i wish you had been. i would have loved to talk that evening. but barack obama debated mitt romney, and he was sort of halting and stiff and he was professorial, almost everything you didn't think of obama in 2008, to the point that some people said, was he suffering from altitude sickness in denver? but it turned out to be pretty brief because there was another debate between him and romney where he knocked the ball out of the park. as you remember, it was not a close race. you also showed gerald ford, which i guess keeps up the colorado theme here, your home state, lived in beaver creek, at least during the summertime, part of the time, and went skiing there. but the point is that ford in 1976 was running against jimmy carter and saying, elect me because i am president, i have

this great foreign policy experience, whereas carter is just a governor of a small state, has never done any diplomacy,o he says as you just showed in that clip, there is no soviet domination of eastern europe and never will be in a ford administration. and people said, so this is our foreign policy genius? and the result was, as you know, a very close election, without having said that, ford would have been elected that year, i believe. >> it's fascinating because moments can change a debate. you know what i mean? i still remember as a kid, my mom watching the mondale debate, and she giggled, she could not stop laughing when he said where's the beef? that's all i remember from that entire election other than him losing. moments can make -- >> i think he remembered the loss a little more. >> and ronald reagan saying i will not use my agent's youth and inexperience against him. moments can make a debate, but sometimes moments can deceive us.

we do politics and media and all of this stuff. this is kind of what we do, and i think sometimes we're so steeped -- we're so sort of distanced from how ordinary people experience it. how can we back off and allow, you know, the public to experience it on their own without trying to influence them too much with our own anxieties? >> well, i think we're going to sort of have to see how people reacted to what they saw of joe biden last night. to a political consultant or an expert, this was about, you know, how not to do a presidential debate. his voice was hoarse. he was not speaking well. it was not a great performance. but five or six days from now, we will have the research evidence to know how people took >> we never >> we never experienced fdr,

our fourth term presidejwho was literally dying, he nearly died in office. he was present for life, literally. but we didn't experience him. and the american people didn't see him on a day-to-day basis, and they never saw him in his wheelchair. they never saw him with his braces. they just didn't know. people found out after. john f. kennedy was looked at as this robust sort of movie star, but people did not see him with his back pain, and how really sort of debilitated he was. so, with president biden, he is kind of suffering from being in the post-kennedy era. he is in our oldest president, but donald trump is the second oldest president. how do we process watching a president age? >> that is an absolutely fascinating subject, and it is not an easy thing to do. you know, you were mentioning reagan, that's another example■ his second term, we look back on that and some people think that reagan was progressively suffering from dementia. his

secretary of state, george schultz, told me that he was once negotiating with gorbachev and reagan seemed so out of it and was saying such irrelevant things that he pulled reagan out of the room and said you are not going back in there in less you get more on the subject. >> so, the reality is, and we were talking about this little bit earlier. because the white house is sensitive to it, they kind of keep biden under wraps until they he appears. and when he appears he is two months older than the last time you saw him. maybe the way we would process an aging president differently is if we just saw him more. we all have elders in our lives, but we see them all the time, so we sort of gradually see them progress. ¿ whereas with president biden, he sort of pops and there, then he pops in there, and it is kind of jarring. >> i agree with you. when i was looking at that debate last night, i've been looking at debate video of trump versus biden in 2020, and then i see this man come in, walking awkwardly, you know, with a hoarse voice, not

speaking very well. and i study this stuff pretty closely, as you do. and it was a big shock to me. if i had seen more of joe biden, not every day, but every couple of days, and if his public appearances were not so controlled i think perhaps people like you and me might not have been so shocked last night. >> i think this is actually a lesson for the media, as well. you show a lot of trump because we have a duty to warn how alarming this person is and how bizarre he is. ■ç you know, this is probably a lesson to all of us, we on the media side should probably show president biden more because then the american people would see what he is and who he is. and again, it is a binary choice. it is this guy or that guy. that is just the way it is. >> well, it is democracy or dictatorship. that is the choice this fall. it will not be anything else. so you can vote for trump or you can vote for biden, and that's your choice.

and, you know, joe biden is the one who has compiled this great presidential record, despite the fact that on certain days he probably looks and sounds the way he did last night. if we knew that that was more common, and that this great leadership had been offered us during the last number of years when he was not always on top of his game, then maybe we would not have been so jarred by last night. >> indeed. well,■ç we love him so much we will keep him around for one more block, because guess what we are going to do? after the break we are going to play our favorite game. who won the week is next. choose nexium. to me, harlem is home. but home is also your body.

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well, folks, well, folks, we made it to the end of another week. that means it is time to play our favorite game, who won the week back with me as michael. who won the week? >> not even close. americans one of the week, but it was 60 years ago. 60 years ago this week ■çour congress passed the civil rights act of 19 before. as you know, i have sons who are 27 and 30, and when they were young i was writing about the civil rights act. i told my kids it made people angry, and they said what was in this thing? why were people so angry about it? i said well, it meant whether you are black or white, or anything else, you could use any hotel or restaurant, or any public place. and my kids said well, why would that make someone angry? and what it said to me is this

is how important it is that we all make sure younger people understand how different this country was and how we have to make sure that no supreme court or anyone else must ever take those rights away. >> amen, amen. and it means, also, you raise really great kids that they would think ■çthat would be something not to be angry about. my pick is mayor patrick paxton of the great city of new bern, alabama. he won an election back in 2020. the previous white mayor and all-white counsel, speaking of civil rights, blocked him from serving. newbern has not been able to hold, he has not held an election for 60 years. no elections. the mayor typically appoints the next one and these white, essentially segregationists have been appointing other white guys to be the mayor. this guy ran, he won, he went to court, he won the case. he is now the first black mayor of newbern, alabama and he won the week. thank you very much, much appreciated. that is tonight's reidout . all in with