all make sure younger people understand how different this country was and how we have to make sure that no supreme court or anyone else must ever take those rights away. >> amen, amen. and it means, also, you raise really great kids that they would think ■çthat would be something not to be angry about. my pick is mayor patrick paxton of the great city of new bern, alabama. he won an election back in 2020. the previous white mayor and all-white counsel, speaking of civil rights, blocked him from serving. newbern has not been able to hold, he has not held an election for 60 years. no elections. the mayor typically appoints the next one and these white, essentially segregationists have been appointing other white guys to be the mayor. this guy ran, he won, he went to court, he won the case. he is now the first black mayor of newbern, alabama and he won the week. thank you very much, much appreciated. that is tonight's reidout . all in with chris hayes starts now.

tonight on all in. a ■ç >> i know i'm not a young man. to state the obvious. >> about last night through the eyes of the undecided. >> i think this debate was bad for our country. we are in a very difficult spot as a nation. >> tonight, how gettable voters view the debate, and what it means to the x essential threat of a trump presidency. >> i would vote for biden even if he was dead. and i'm a republican. plus, as barack obama enters the conversation, the historical precedent and practical reality of picking a candidate in the convention. and today's radical opinion from the supreme court as we finally get word, a decision on trump's immunity for insurrection is finally up next. all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. the first thing to keep ■çin mi in the aftermath of last night's presidential debate is

that if you are watching this program right now, you are almost certainly not the person whose opinion about it is the most important. at least electorally. you are almost certainly not an undecided voter. we will see what they have to say about it as the polling comes in. you probably felt a little bit like some of these debate watchers around the country, captured by the associated press, reacting in shock, horror, cringe, disappointment to joe biden's performance and donald trump's blustery lies. like most of them, your vote was not up for grabs. the question is what truly undecided voters came away thinking. and for many of them, there was deep disappointment with both candidates. >> i felt terrible for biden.■ç i mean, that was really sad. >> i thought he stumbled. you know, it happens. i thought trump was unhinged for 90 straight minutes.

>> double frustrated. >> double frustrated. what about you? >> double cringe. >> trump did his litany of lies and biden was a disappointment. >> we have two candidates that have embarrassed what we say is the president. we are doomed. i honestly cannot get past the embarrassment, the first five minutes. it was horrifying. >> so, i think what we just witnessed, the feeling i had inside was trump, no, he lied through the whole thing. and biden is oh, no, he is really in bad shape. and can he even run in the rest of the election or take the white house again? i just don't see how that ■çwou work. >> the big take away from last night is in many ways the most cliche. this is where you find on any street corner, right? you hear it everywhere. the take away, i can't believe it's these two guys. but here's the thing about last night. the republican party has become kind of an authoritarian cult of personality. a top-down, fall in line kind of operation where even when

the guy at the top of the ticket is found guilty of 34 counts by unanimous jury vote for paying off the adult film actress he had an affair with, to manipulate an election, not only do republicans continue to support him but they all dress up like him to go stand outside of the court defending him. and because that inherent difference in the two parties, their coalitions, there'd this mq!q republican politics today, i q!q mean no one who watched trump last night and thought themselves if we had nikki haley or someone else we would probably be up double digits, right? right? they should be saying that, because it is obviously true. but no one is. because that is how republicans roll. democrats rolled differently. as we all know, don't we? kratz, well they are beset by constant angst, and joe biden's performance last night has probably the worst of that dread and self-doubt. i will say, it is not an irrational, hyperbolic, knee-

jerk reaction in this case. for this reason. for months, we have looked at this race, and i think genuinely remarkable domestic policy record of this■ç residen coming out of the wreckage of covid. and it is remarkable and lots of ways. him the polling multiple legislative victories out of a largely divided congress. shepherding and in a roaring economy after the disaster that was the trump first term. and being vocal about the threat a second one poses. and you look at that race, and you wonder, with donald trump of all people as the nominee, how is this basically a coin flip for anyone? and there have been two basic answers. one is that the first bout of serious high inflation that anyone had experienced in the country in 30 years has made incumbent parties and leaders are unpopular across the developed world. germany, france, u.s., canada. in fact, biden is doing a lot better than most of those other incumbents in those other countries. both in terms of economic

growth and recovery, and in pulling. and there is the second answer, which is that joe biden is 81 years old and he is running forç a second term that, if he won, he would complete when he is 85. a presidency ages people. we know that. it is another cliche. we have watched it. you have all seen the before and after pictures, right? and everyone saw it last night. it has long been reflected in the polling. as my colleague pointed out last night before the debate in the latest new york times college poll. >> passed a very specific question, it was this. is the aid of a candidate such an issue that the candidate is not capable of handling the job of president? when after that way, it is basically a 3-1 difference. 45% said that applies to joe biden, only 16% said that applies to donald trump. >> ■9emarkable, right? that the race is tied with that 45%. and all that polling also shows

a bit of a silver lining for democrats, because it is not like the party or their agenda is broadly unpopular, or this anger at incumbents is widely shared. quite the opposite. right now we look at swing states, from ohio, to wisconsin, to nevada, to pennsylvania, you see consistently and 5-7 point gap between where joe biden is pulling and where other statewide democratic incumbents, apples to apples, or polling. the undercard is doing quite well right now. the big guy, not so much. and i think, again, we circle around different expeditions. but where i found myself, occam's razor, it does come back to these two issues. that fundamentally people don't like the cost of groceries under biden, and biden is old. and you can't really control the cost of groceries. the question of■ç is biden too old to have the best shot at winning this race, well, that is been haunting the conversation the whole time. and it exploded in the open last night in the debate. biden himself addressed it today. >> i know i'm not a young man. to state the obvious.

well, i know. folks, i folks, i don't walk as easy as i used to. i don't speak as smoothly as i used qu9ñ i don't debate as well as i used to. but i know what i do know. i know how to tell the truth. i know right from wrong. and i know how to do this job. i know how to get things done. i know, like millions of

americans know, when you get knocked down you get back up. >> joe biden has been in elected office for the 50 years . he is quite a capable politician who has run and won a lot of races in his time, including a 29-year-old man. he beat trump the first time. he's got a good record. his future looks a lot more uncertain.■ç the new york times editorial board took the unprecedented step of calling for biden to leave the race today. writing that there is no reason for the party to risk the stability and security of the country by forcing voters to choose between mr. trump's deficiencies and those of mr. biden. it is too big a bet to simply hope that americans will overlook or discount esther biden's agent infirmary they see with their own eyes. if biden were to step aside, and the signals being sent from inside the white house and the campaign party is that he won't.

but if you are, the party would have to figure out a way to choose another nominee. we are going to get into that a little bit, because i think it's worth discussing. suffice to say, the logistics antipolitics would become located. it is also ■ça move that would come with its own risks. there are no guarantees in politics. all that being said, i think the quantitative and qualitative data, the polling and the eye test both tell us that this is probably not the strongest possible democratic candidate to beat a wildly dangerous man who poses an accidental threat to democracy. ultimately that is now for joe biden to decide. he one of the primary, he got the most delegates, he is the democratic party nominee, and he will be the party nominee unless he decides not to be. working at the last biting campaign, she served as the chief spokesperson for vice president kamala harris. she is now the cohost of the weekend on msnbc and she joins me now. how are you processing, you worked in that white house. you know the vice president, you know the president.

you are also now in this world. the chorus from what i would say our elite voices inside the democratic party centerleft■ç, newspaper columnists and pundits, the editorial board of the new york times, and the elected officials texting anonymously. pretty freaked out. what do you think is happening inside the world of the people that are all going to ultimately going to do anything if anything were to be done? >> i think, and i will preface this with anita dunn is joining our show tomorrow on the weekend, who is an adviser to the president. she is joining in her personal capacity, not as a white house official. so we are going to after these questions and talk to her. but knowing the folks that i know, my former colleagues, and having reached out and heading conversations with folks, to glean what they are thinking. they are unchanged in large part. which ■ça lot of folks have not

that that is not a great thing. i will say this. they all knew during that debate last night that he didn't do well. which is why i was confused about why the president went out right after that debate at the watch party, where he had a lot more energy than he did on the debate stage, and even at the waffle house in that off the record stop where he was with the first lady. when he was asked himself about how he thought he did, he said i did great. it is not hard to debate a liar. that does not sound like a focus on the president immediately after the debate were honest with him and told him the truth. it was very clear from what we saw today from joe biden that he himself had seen some of the clips, that he himself had talked to his aides, and he hmáq&f had decided he did not do well and he also wanted to do something about it. i like to say, i think joe biden saved himself today, and that was the best possible thing from a strategist perspective that could have gone out and happened today. now, what happens going forward is the question. joe biden cannot have another debate like he had last night.

i think that is very clear. but how is the campaign and the white house shoring up particularly elected officials? the elected officials, i think their handwringing, if you will, warranted. because they are on the ballot. every single member of the house of representatives. yeah, it is not just worried about us, we are worried about ourselves. often times elected officials are the worst ones, you have to talk to them immediately. >> again, i am being honest here that i feel torn about all of this. the one thing that does seem clear to me is that■ç if you lo at the polling right now, you look at the data we have, it is roughly a tight race and joe biden is losing to donald trump on the electoral college map. and i think they know that. so he is behind. it is not crazy, it is not like oh, my god. it is close, but he is behind. donald trump winning would be very bad. so what is the theory of how

you go from losing the race to winning it? and, as best as i can tell, the theory is the voters are going to come back home to us as they realize donald trump is donald trump. and maybe that is the case, but that seems like the theory now and i'd think it is crazy for people to think that doesn't seem a strong enough theory about how this race gets won. >> if that were only at, i would be ■çlike i don't know. i think that is part of it. and you know, this interview recently with john holman where she talked at length about their strategy. and i think it is part that folks are hoping, that the biden folks are hoping that the voters will see this contrast. now, looking at last night's contrast, the performance was, joe biden obviously did not do well on the performance. but donald trump, when it came

to the substance and the content he literally sounded insane. i am still trying to figure out what a black job is. and i had a black job right now? i don't know. >> no, you are in a bounce back job. you thought it was a black job, it's a bounce back job. >> okay, they changed the label since i got here. okay. donald trump still needs to answer these questions. but seriously, i do ■çthink tha it is part the contrast and part that they are building up an infrastructure. now, we have talked a lot about the polls, and now last night's debate, what the candidates and the campaigns are saying. but not as much about the various campaign infrastructures. and infrastructure in campaigning, that is what wins elections. i am looking to see what the infrastructure of the biden campaign apparatus is doing, how they are engaging in these key battleground states across the country. looking back to 2020 and thinking about arizona, georgia, and wisconsin. those three states, about 44,000 votes made the difference in joe biden winning the extra, besting donald trump

in the electoral college by 74 electoral college votes. without those four states, 44,000 votes, joe biden is not the president.■ç i am looking at the infrastructure in the states. but also, what is the trump campaign doing? is that enough for donald trump to have had a good performance, but shaky content? on the debate stage, if the campaign does not have an structure? >> all of that is true. that is a positive path for it. i guess the last question here is you said this last night, you and i were talking and i said look. this is all fantasy football and unless and until the people closest to joe biden have a this is not working conversation. and i don't think they're going to do that. i am just got checking with you. or in public or private by chuck schumer, hakeem jeffries, all those fellas. >> i asked multiple times again today. i called up folks from the convention community$çthis morning and said are you looking for a new nominee?

and they resoundingly said no. joe biden will be our nominee. and i don't believe that the campaign apparatus or people closest to the president are saying i don't think he's up for this. i think they believe that he is in fact up for this. joe biden himself said today he believes he is up for this. the only way in which -- look, chris, they could be wrong. they could be wrong. but the voters will have the final say. and i remember when i worked with the campaign and right after iowa everyone was like joe biden is done for. the donors are fleeing. he is too old for this. and then he won. so you have to let these things play out. but the campaign has to make the decisions. back in 2019, 2020, that campaign made key decisions. are they going to make decisions this go-round, and what will those be? we have to watch. q:"ti rñsimon you. she will be back bright and early tomorrow, sunday at 8:00 a.m. she has that interview with anita dunn, she will be there with michael steele and lisa menendez coasting the weekend

on msnbc. coming up, joe biden is the only one who had a bad night. we will break down donald trump's truly terrible debate performance next. mance next.

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>> donald trump >> donald trump is unburdened by the truth. it is not a burden he carries. case in point, ■çlast night a nonstop stream of lies. he said the neo-nazi rally in

charlottesville was fabricated. let us speak the truth. that is a lie. he said the mom he incited at the united states capital on january 6th was only, quote, a small number of people who were, quote, ushered in by the police. a lie. he claimed he never called our troops suckers and losers. as general john kelly, general john kelly, his former chief ofç staff, can tell you. another lie. >> here's the thing that got lost in all the coverage of president joe biden's poor performance. donald trump had a rough night, too. he did not come across as coherent, forward-looking, and a confident leader.

he came across like a bullying liar. today, friday, june 28, donald trump is arguably more of a threat than he was yesterday on june 27th. so what do you do about that? joining me now is douglas brinkley, presidential historian and professor of history at rice university. it is good to have you here. >> good to be here. >> as i said in the opening, i feel torn on this. i think there is a freak out happening. there are arguments and counter arguments about the path forward, and that it is sort of nonsense, fantasy football to ■ç be talking about the incumbent president getting out of the race. others say look, the data is blinking red, and you just saw it in your own eyes last night. is there historical record you have to share? >> well, the danger at a bad debate is everything can go sideways. we think about what happened to joe forward. he had all the national security prudential's, and then pulling not in the soviet union, and he doubled down on

it. that took him out of the game. carter was a number one without that. last night you are looking at biden with the senate foreign relations committee background, decades in the senate. he has done so much. eight years as vice president. but that did not come across on the debate. the resume didn't come across. and, without calling out donaldç trump serial lying, it left it as if biden may be old and in the way, left over from another generation. so they are going to have to work hard. kamala harris is going to have to dribble down, and where is general kelly? why isn't he on tv? why not? if he is the one who started that, then talk about it. i think biden people now have to be team at biden, not just count on joe. the other debate, september 10th, maybe. also maybe will be a bobby kennedy junior in that. maybe a different dynamic. that was the debate moment. >> trump, i want to just

highlight something. out of the thing that i think, there is 1 million ways that trump is awful. but the course, the thing that has become acceptable that or even unremarked on. i just want to ■çtake this mome to talk about him using the term palestinian as an ethnicity. there are people that i know and love who are palestinian, people who are israeli, jewish, egyptian, and italian. using it as a slur. as a slur. he did it again today. and i want to just play, he talked about it, he did in the debate last night and again about chuck schumer. >> even schumer has become a palestinian. chuck schumer, jewish, always strong. he has become like a palestinian. >> you should let them go and

let him finish the job. he doesn't want to do it. become like a palestinian, but they don't like him because he is a very bad palestinian. he is a weak one. >> i come from new york. he has become a palestinian. he is a palestinian now. >> i have to say, i just find is unfathomably disgusting. vile. odious. >> me, too. and he has done that the people all over the world. he has thought about haitians, africans, the muslim ban. he is a hater. a professional person who is xenophobic, who hates and loathes people . but to smear some palestinian family in such an egregious way, and then doubles down on it, and mocks schumer, i think the public, i am not clear that they like that. >> i think your point there is important. that is the thing. people watch that last night, and obviously the thing on biden. but i think it is really important to remind yourself that there is a reason he lost the popular vote twice, both times when he was up. it is the case that yes, there are some people who love that. but it is odious to americans, and■ç, well, to the majority, i think, of americans. do you think there is any precedent here historically,

like fdr in 44 was running, and we would later learn near the end of his life. johnson in 68. again, the stakes there did not feel as elemental and existential as the threat posed by trump. but i wonder if there are lessons to learn. >> well, in 1952 harry truman got out. he did not run. he turned it over to alan stevenson. but the polls had him at 28%, or something. truman said let's go back to missouri, we have done enough. and they left and 68. as you mentioned, linda johnsonç on march 31st shocked the nation due to vietnam, but he also had heart problems, personal health. and his wife said let's go back to austin. biden has decided --

>> we should just know, because you gave those two examples, 52 and 68. in both cases, truman could run again because he had not served two full terms. johnson had not served two full terms. but in both cases the democratic nominee lost. >> that's the point. yeah, exactly. they both lost. so, in this case, i think you see joe biden and the family over the summer, last spring, saying we are doing it. that was before october 7th. you never know, health concerns go a little bit, meaning that hamas, israel, which is collocated. his re-election possibilities due to the youth vote. they are all systems go ■çnow, chris. i don't see any way, shape, or form that joe biden and kamala harris are not going to march forward, certainly not because of the debate last night. it would have to be talking about something really heinous with their health, something that is really big to just come clean about. >> thank you very much. still to come, let's say in the unlikely eventuality that the president does decide to

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>> back then >> back then he was unknown to me, really, at the time. and i had seen what trump had done. now that i have seen him in action, or inaction, i think that the democrats want to have a chance at putting someone in the white house, they need to

put someone else up. >> a lot of people today in the wake of last night's debate trying to understand what exactly would happen if resident joe biden were to step aside. how would that work? if the party replace the presented nominee, who would decide on the replacement? new york times opinion columnist ezra klein has been advocating for what is called open conviction. he is looking at the procedures and options of joe biden himself deciding to release his delegates and step aside. ezra klein■ç joins us now. i want to start on the first point. because i think we are in agreement on this, and i just want to level set. which is, the only way this happens, i think, is if biden is persuaded to step aside. there is no universe in which there is some essentially rebellion. >> yes, barring tragedy, it only happens at night and steps aside. >> why do you think you should step aside? let's start with that. >> i think there are two levels of this. you are asked me back in february when i began making these arguments, i felt that we

had passed the point where he was able to campaign effectively . you would hear from people inside the white house that he is performing the job of the presidency just fine, but you would watch them on the trail and they were doing very few interviews, skipping the super bowl interview, he completely fumbled the press conference ■ç around the special counsel report. and it just didn't look, to me, like he was able to perform the act of the presidency. now i think it is also more substantive. i also don't really buy that the men we saw there struggling through answers in an improvisational setting, which is often where his very bad moments come from, is less real to the presidency than the man who sort of does better, stronger teleprompter speeches. they are both there. i think biden makes very good decisions. i think he has been a very good president. but if you ask me in an honest way if i want to see him three years older managing a foreign policy crisis, i think that is iffy. i think at some point you have

to say this is not just an issue of optics, and issue a performance and capacity. >> yeah, i think those are both, they are all fair points. i continue ■çto think he has do an excellent job as president, and in some respects, some of the best jobs i've seen in my life, actually, in terms of the management of the domestic policy front and legislatively. what does it actually mean? like, if someone were to come to him and he were to have some crisis of conscience moment, what happens next, and wouldn't it just be kamala harris? no? >> what would happen next is you would end up in a capacity of convention. and it's funny, because we have no muscle memory of this. it seems like a completely crazy thing to do. and in this way every presidential nominee was chosen until0çthe 1970s. fittingly, it was chicago, where the democratic convention is this year that led to the

end of these conventions and 68. there was so much chaos, so much division within the party. it leaves democrats creating this commission. they have the fraser commission that creates new rules. they did not mean to throw everything to primaries, but they did. but this used to be how we did it. fdr was chosen by convention. abraham lincoln was chosen by convention. they were all chosen by conventions. so what you have is the elected delegates, who in this case, would be released. they would go and have to ultimately vote in a ticket. and the way that ticket would get chosen would have to do with speeches, would have to do with lobbying behind, if joe biden had decided to step down tomorrow you would probably have all of these possible candidates like witmer and shapiro and newsome and harris doing cnn town halls, and msnbc town halls. and it would be the sort of media and private campaign to create the momentum■ç that woul lead to delegates deciding yes, this is the ticket we want to organize in order to win in november. >> what you say to people who say this is a west wing script, like this is just casting? yes, that would be, narratively, totally fascinating. but it is so long from earth

one to earth two. >> it all feels a little west wing right now. it is also completely unprecedented to run an 81-year- old behind in the polls. this is, in american history, much less unprecedented. it is how we have typically done this. granted, we don't have the muscle memory of it anymore. i don't know what to say about the west wing. just the fact that it seems dramatic makes it into a tv show? i think that the question that ultimately ends up needing to be asked here is $w are you balancing risk? i am not comfortable making this argument. i don't enjoy making this argument. i like joe biden, i think he has been a good president. i think if you are the joe biden of 2012 he would wipe the floor with donald trump. but it is also now we are. and if you think donald trump is an existential threat to american democracy, which is what i believe and what i think

a lot of people around joe biden believe, what joe biden says he believes. then if biden is not up to the campaign and also potentially not up to the presidency afterwards, i think you have to take that pretty seriously. to me, the question is not west wing or not west wing. the question is around kamala harris. as you say, here is would be the presumptive nominee. she would be the likeliest nominee. and people have very differing assessments of her level of strength. i think she is underrated. that is not the same as thinking she is a political juggernaut. but ■çwhat i prefer to have her on the debate stage last night the joe biden? i probably would have. i think she can be well balanced by a vice president? probably. if biden were performing more strongly we would not have this conversation. but at some point you have to ask if he is not, is it really the case of the democratic party with all the political talent in it, with all these governors, all the senators, there is no one they can put up? or are we just afraid of trying to do something different because it is more comfortable for everybody individually to not step out on this? >> ezra klein now writing and podcasting at the new york times. thank you very much.

>> thank you. coming up, neil gorsuch thinks the air is being polluted by laughing gas. seriously. what that tells us about the supreme court's latest radical decision, next.

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(other money manager) your clients rely on you for all that? (fisher investments) yes. and as a fiduciary, we always put their interests first. (other money manager) but you still sell commission -based products, right? (fisher investments) no. we have a simple management fee structured so we do better when our clients do better. (other money manager) huh, we're more different than i thought! (fisher investments) at fisher investments, we're clearly different. the supreme the supreme court has been very busy this week ending down a slate of mostly terrible decisions while kicking the can on donald trump's desperate

claim on presidential immunity. if you happened to catch two of yesterday's ruling, you might've noticed some pretty stunning, mortifying mistakes from that man, trump appointed justice neil gorsuch. first, in the opening >> anyone who >> anyone who works in financial regulation, as you would expect a sitting justice adjudicating. would never in 1 million years call it the security and exchange commission. but, it gets worst. much worse. because in a separate decision yesterday, striking down an anti-smog rule from the environmental protection agency, justice gorsuch got a little confused again. the small get gas in question is called nitrogen oxide.

nitrogen oxide. on five separate occasions in his opinion, however, horses referred to it instead as nitrous oxide, which is ou would get from the dentist. again, in a typographical sense, small mistake in a vacuum. but it is emblematic of someone who is just not at all familiar with chemistry and the material facts of the case. it would be like if you read an article by a tv critic who mistakenly called the network that hosted the debate last night cnbc. like, you can't trust that writer, if you know anything at all about tv networks you see the error immediately. it is not just a few letters off. no one who works on gas regulation for the actual epa would make the mortifying mistake that neil gorsuch and presumably his clerks made. that is because they are actual experts. they are the experts whose authority this extreme court dramatically weakened in ■ça ne

landmark decision today. the question in front of the court today was about something legal scholars called chevron deference. and it works like this. since the 84 years, the supreme court's positioned that in cases where there is some ambiguity in the law relating to federal agency regulation that the courts would defer to the actual experts in those agencies to interpret the statute of the law, rather than delay folks, like neil gorsuch presiding over our courts. well, today, and a radical decision that will rank among the most impactful of our lifetimes, most likely, the supreme court just took that authority away from the experts in the civil service and agencies who work on this stuff all the time, like fishing inspection, and they gave it back to themselves.■ç we are going to be the one to decide how to interpret the statute on whether the

fishermen have to pay for their own fishing inspectors or not. which was the subject of this case. they gave it to themselves. they now get to decide. this slate of right-wing activists that donald trump has installed on the bench and lifetime employments. which means, going forward, when we are trying to figure out how to say implement an environmental regulation about clean air, that decision will not be made by the experts whose job it is to understand the issues, but rather by someone like neil gorsuch who doesn't know the difference between laughing gas and smog. if you have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's disease... put it in check with rinvoq... a once-daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief and reduced fatigue with rinvoq. check! when flares kept trying to slow me down i got lasting steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check! and when my doctor saw damage, rinvoq helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining.

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what i what i found unnerving about justice samuel alito's family's decision to fly those flags was that they didn't have to do it. doing it was at some level, whether intentional or not, communicating there is nothing you can do to check me. it is the same with justice clarence thomas taking ■çmillio of dollars in gifts and not reporting them. saying we are supreme in every sense of the word, functionally there is nothing you can do.

the supreme court is sending that same message by not releasing its decision on donald trump's community claim until the very last monday in july. the court has released opinions this late in july only three times in the last nearly 40 years. they could have ruled on the community claim over six months ago, in december, before it went to the appeals court, in fact, that is exactly what they did on the idaho case on emergency abortions. and this week, they said, our bad, we shouldn't have so, now, in a final message that you can't do anything to us, they are extending their opinion ç schedule and releasing trump community ruling on the last day in july. it is like a jailbreak in broad daylight. real quick, slate's senior editor where she writes about the court and hosts a podcast, and she joins me now. i want to talk about immunity, but i want to rewind for a second to talk about the

chevron case. you have been very vocal, i have seen you today, about just how monumental this is. and because admin law is sort of obscure, i think it is sort of hard to communicate why, but tell me why you think it is so significant. >> i just think it is a game changer in terms of how government can possibly work going forward, and i think if you read justice kagan's dissent, it is really, really clear that not only is this now a question nv, you know, the water we drink, the food we have, the drugs that we take, you know, environmental policy. ironically, everything that was being talked about on the debate stage last night, every one of those policies is administered by an agency, it is not administered by joe biden or donald trump, and all those agencies have been absolutely kneecap in their ability to do their work, and more urgently, and this is

really the chilling part, we have a bunch of justices who just in the last few weeks, we have got justice alito playing dr., neil gorsuch now an expert on emissions and air pollution. we have got the court telling us that they know better than etf what a bump stock is. so, this has snbt of been happening over years and years, substituting their judgment in areas where they have no expertise, now it is just wholesale, it is not just agency by agency, case by case, it is just the entire administrative state asked about through matthew in his idea about whether mifepristone should be on the market or not. >> right, that is a great example. i saw one example of someone talking about, in this case, it was like if you are a fisher, you have got to have fish inspectors, and who pays for the inspection on your own boat, was the question that matters here. one thing we saw is they had

this crazy wide ruling in berlin that seem to say if it wasn't there in the founding era, then it is unconstitutional. and then in this round, the gun case this time, they were like, with the case of domestic violence, they were like, okay, okay, that is too broad. they had to reel it back. have they given themselves an unworkable situation here in which every single regulatory decision by every agency is going to the courts now? >> i mean, i think they think it is workable. i think it is workable in so far as agencies are going to be chilled from using science and expertise and using a 40 year long understanding, and by the way, that was the understanding in the agencies, this deference was afforded to them, so yeah, i think the idea that every judge who has an opinion on how to do the swampland better is going to be able to substitute judgment, is going to make it

unworkable. but let's be really clear, i think making regulatory ■ç agencies unworkable, this is project 2025, chris, this is steve bannon, this was the dream. and so, the idea that any part of this should be surprising, this was the goal, and we are seeing the court do it in a judicial fashion, just as we are seeing project 2025 try to do it through the executive branch someday. >> i saw someone posted a that when the supreme court denied steve bannon's hail mary to stay out of prison, he is going to have to report on monday, when they denied it, it was the court saying you have done your service, we will take it from here. which was pretty funny. let's talk about this sort of immunity timing. i am probably wrong to find this in sensing, that not only did they delay and drag their feet, not only do they take two weeks to decide, not only did they schedule it in the last day of

oral arguments, but now they will release it on the very last day of the term. >> you are right to be annoyed and you are right to say, you know, that there was nothing that the court couldn't have decided in december, they could have similarly affirmed this, they could have done what jack smith asked and just leapfrogged it the way they leapfrogged the other case, as you noted, and they could have done what they did in the anderson case, and the colorado ballot case, which is saying we are going to fast track this because we know what an emergency looks like. i take this decision to do it on the very last day of the term, which is extended, by the way, past today when the term ought to have ended, just signaled two things. vi mq flags and the nondisclosures of trips, because we can. because we can and because we can. and i think the other thing that is really telling is that mifepristone opinion, the opinion that accidentally popped out on wednesday and then was withdrawn and then

came out on thursday unchanged certainly puts to light the fact that this is all only when it is ready. it was ready the day before. so, the notion that the court wasn't ready, no. >> no, they can do it sooner. they're fast when you're fast and slow when they want to be. thank you. one quick reminder before we go, on saturday, september 7th, we will be holding our first ever premier fan event msnbc live, democracy 2024, in brooklyn, new york. first of its kind live discussion■ç, other events scheduled throughout the day, featuring all of your favorite msnbc personalities. you see them at the bottom of your screen, i will be there. along with many, many others. scan the qr code on your screen to buy your tickets, because it is going to sell out, i think very quickly. that is all for this week. the wonderful and talented alex wagner back from atlanta. >> in one piece.