certainly puts to light the fact that this is all only when it is ready. it was ready the day before. so, the notion that the court wasn't ready, no. >> no, they can do it sooner. they're fast when you're fast and slow when they want to be. thank you. one quick reminder before we go, on saturday, september 7th, we will be holding our first ever premier fan event msnbc live, democracy 2024, in brooklyn, new york. first of its kind live discussion■ç, other events scheduled throughout the day, featuring all of your favorite msnbc personalities. you see them at the bottom of your screen, i will be there. along with many, many others. scan the qr code on your screen to buy your tickets, because it is going to sell out, i think very quickly. that is all for this week. the wonderful and talented alex wagner back from atlanta. >> in one piece.

>> i thought you were fantastic last night. >> thank you, i thought you were fantastic. it is a society of mutual admiration. >> it was great, thanks for doing that. >> thanks for saying that, that is very kind of you and that means a lot. i just want to say about the timing, because i can't let it go unsaid, the supreme court is also waiting to release■ç this immunity deal until july 1st, which is like the fourth of july holiday. and all i want to know is what flag is flying over the alito house at long beach island. anybody who lives on long beach island, please take a photo. the country needs to know. >> i know it is going to be flying. >> i bet there are a lot of other fights people are mocking up, too. have a good weekend, my friend. okay, if you were brave enough to open the new york times this morning and you turned to the opinion section, this is what you would have seen. thomas friedman, joe biden is a

good man and a good president, he must bow out of the race. frank bruni: biden cannot go on like this. nicholas kristof: president biden, i have seen enough. and this evening, the entire editorial board of the new yorkç times published this op-ed: to serve his country, president biden should leave the race. mr. biden answered an urgent question on thursday night, it was not the answer that he and his supporters were hoping for, but if the risk of a second trump term is as great as he says it is, then his dedication to this country leaves him and his party only one choice. the clearest path for democrats to defeat a candidate defined by his lies is to deal truthfully with the american public: acknowledge that mr. biden can't continue his race and create a process to select someone more capable to stand in his place, it is the best chance to protect the soul of the nation and it is the best service that mr. biden can provide to a country that he has nobly served for so long.

but at least for now, at least at this hour, ■çthe leaders of the democratic party are standing by this president. here is what house speaker america nancy pelosi and speaker hakeem jeffries and south carolina congressman jim clyburn had to say today. >> what you make of democrats calling for biden to step down? >> i don't know who is doing that. i am not doing it. >> after the debate performance last night, should you step aside? >> we should focus [ inaudible ] focus on substance . [ inaudible ] >> today, the president himself did his best to beat back the criticism at a rally in north carolina where, speaking from a teleprompter, he appeared more lively and more coherent than he did in ■çlast night's debate >> i don't walk as easy as i

used to, i don't speak as loosely as i used to, i don't abate as well as i used to, but i know what i do know. i know how to tell the truth. >> [ applause ] >> folks, i gave my word that i would not be running again if i didn't believe with all my heart and soul i can do this job. >> [ cheers and applause ] >> the stakes are too high. the stakes are too high. >> yes, you can. yes, you can. >> whatever happens here, president biden is certainly right about one thing. the stakes could not be higher. donald trump's authoritarian impulses and his radical right- wing agenda and rampant criminality ■çmake him the most dangerous presidential candidate in modern history. all of that was on display last night for anyone who cared to pay attention to it. >> you know what i did is i put three great supreme court

justices on the court and they happened to vote in favor of killing roe v. wade and moving it back to the states. this is something that everybody wanted. they talk about a relatively small number of people that went to the capitol and in many cases, were ushered in by the police. what they have done to some people that are so innocent, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. what you have done, you have destroyed the lives of so many people. >> and right now, the project for which it donald trump is the figurehead, a conservative rollback of the last century of liberal democracy, is making serious strides&ç we saw even more stunning examples of that today when the supreme court's conservative majority and a down a ruling that experts say will dramatically affect the federal government's ability to enforce all kinds of laws and regulations. mark joseph stern writes: the supreme court is imposing a maga vision of the law on america, giving unelected judges near unfathomable power to override

the policy choices of the democratic branches. through rulings mac dressed up in legalese, it strips power from the citizens and their elected representatives, establishing a monarchy called judiciary with no known limits on its own authority. at its core, this ruling effectively takes away power from the experts in our federal government, the environmental scientists, the food safety experts, the air ■fraffic control experts, it takes away power from all of those people to do their jobs, and then it hands that power to an unelected judiciary. it is a staggering win for conservatives and for the conservative project. but can biden and can democrats do anything about it? on that front, there is even more distressing news. short of a strong opponent to give donald trump a serious run for his money, perhaps the greatest threat to a second trump presidency strums federal criminal indictment for trying to overturn the results of the

2020 presidential election. and today, that, too, suffered a potentially significant setback. in a case brought by one of the january 6th writers, the court today issued a ruling significantly narrowing one of the ■çkey charges brought again trump and his mob, the charge of obstructing an official proceeding. that ruling could affect hundreds of cases brought by the justice department against january 6th writers. what impact it will have on the case brought against trump himself by special counsel jack smith, well, that remains unclear. that is if the case can even make it to trial. right now, that trial is effectively frozen as we await the court's decision on trump's absolute presidential immunity case. today, the court signaled that it will hand down that decision on monday, july 1st. right in time for the fourth of july holiday. happy independence day. the best case scenario here is that there will be no fit for criminal trial before the

selection, that is the best case scenario. which means that anyone looking to stop donald trump and to ■ç secure the fate of american democracy and the games made in the last century on civil rights and social progress and to ensure a more equitable and stable future for this country and this planet is now dependent on a democrat to stop donald trump. and right now, that person remains president joe biden. joining us now is julian castro, secretary of urban housing and development and a former presidential contender. secretary castro, should joe biden still be the nominee? >> well, i think that in all likelihood, joe biden is going to be the nominee. here's the thing, if -- in 2024ç he has had a strong record as

president, he has done a lot of great things he can be proud of and move the country forward, he beat donald trump in 2020. it is 2024, it is not 2020, and we saw that last night. the challenge in terms of changing course at this point is that this didn't happen overnight. democrats got walked into this at several junctures over the last two years. the democratic establishment basically cut off anybody that thought about running against joe biden, cut off the potential for debate, so that the public could have other options in front of them. you know, vendors or consultants that thought about perhaps another candidate, they got the message that, look, your career is going to be blackballed, so this ■çisn't a decision that was created by one debate performance, it was greeted by two years of turning a blind eye to what in polling, the public could clearly see, it was the result basically of enforced ignorance.

and that is what the democrats are dealing with now. unfortunately, with only four months left in the cycle, joe biden would have to step aside. he would have to choose at the convention to allow his delegates to go on a different direction. he is the only one that can make the decision to do that, without the alternative, a process that is so bloody, that is so messy, that would probably put us in a worse position than having joe biden just run and be benign many. >>■ç i do wonder if there's eve any deliberations going on, what you think the potential cost is in terms of not just the election, but the biden presidency. the republicans are now invoking the 25th amendment, saying joe biden isn't fit to lead, and marco rubio told me yesterday evening,

it is harmful to his candidacy, but it is potentially harmful to this country. you think that is an overstatement? do you worry about any of the real-world implications of any of this right now? >> here is the irony, it's the republicans who have a candidate who is a serial liar, who is a convicted felon, who is a danger to our democracy. on the other side, you have joe biden who is a good man, who has a strong record as president,■ç who is honest, but he is the one getting accused by these disingenuous republicans of being a threat to our democracy. the world turned upside down, but again, democrats have become susceptible to this, because of essentially an enforce silence and turning a blind eye to what i think the public could see for a long time. i don't think that senator rubio is pressed for a push for the 25th amendment to be invoked is going to go anywhere. this is the same kind of hyperbole, smear job that we

see republicans do on president biden and other democrats all the time. this is what they do. this is about all they are good at at this point as a party. but it is more noise for voters, and you have a lot of low propensity voters and folks that don't take in a lot of information, and they know whatç they see on the screen, though. and what they saw on the screen last night doesn't give them confidence in the president. texas secretary julian castro, thank you for your time and your thoughts tonight, i know this is not an easy question. joining us now in new york is ben rose, former national security advisor to president obama. you know, this is complicated, right? and i think anybody who watched what happened last night who has a heart and who understands what president biden has done for the country was pained to watch the performance, but i kind of wonder where you have landed on this in the 24 hours since. >> yeah, it has been a difficult 24 hours.

i think there are two things that we have to acknowledge up front, right? first is donald trump remains just as unfit and disho'st and dangerous as he was 24 hours ago. and actually, he demonstrated that himself, lying through the debate, stirring up serious division in this country, saying things that would have been unthinkable in a presidential debate two election cycles ago. it remains true that joe biden has spent decades serving this country, as honorable intentions, has done a good job as president, but we can't unseat what we saw, right? which is a really meandering debate performance that not only failed to put to rest the doubts about his capacity to do four years in the office, but kind of reinforced some of those doubts. and so, to me, it is a moment where people need to take stock, candidly, and precisely because the stakes are so high, precisely because donald trump is so dangerous.■ç >> and the movement he represents is so dangerous and

seemingly successful. >> as you saw in the supreme court, that is a manifestation of the stakes. four more years, two more judges maybe. we don't know exactly, he got three last time, right? so, the question now is some people say.raises questions as we just have to focus on beating trump. look, if it ends up joe biden is the nominee out of the convention, i think everybody who cares about this democracy has to do everything they can to help him win this election and defeat donald trump. but because the debate was so early, at the biden campaign's request, in june, i think it is wholly appropriate to take stock and they should be having conversations in the white house about do we think we can do this, do we think this is the best way to try to defeat donald trump? ■ç they should be having those conversations. alex, you know, everybody in your life, i'm sure, and mine, people who don't follow politics are asking these questions now, and that is okay. because if we are all going to try to come together to save this democracy, we need to make sure we are putting our best

foot forward here. and i think that is a process, as difficult as it is, is currently playing out in opinion pages and text threads and living rooms across this country. >> yeah. i was struck, though, and i agree with you, it is time for a gut check and a really profoundly existential fashion. but i was struck by this reporting we have from gabe gutierrez, who tweeted this evening: a biden a.i.d.s. defined response to the new york times editorial calling for biden to step down, this stuff is like jet fuel in my veins, i love it. i mean --■ç you know what it's like to be a cipher under siege. this is different, though, that bunker mentality feels like a real disservice to the country, i mean, in my opinion. >> no, i agree with that, because look, the question they have to answer -- joe biden was out there today, he was great, that was a good answer to the question about age. it was an answer he couldn't

get them last night. if you can do that, if they think he can get there out every day -- a barack obama had a terrible debate in 2012. he is taking his case across country. the question that they have to answer is, for the next four months, with everything on the line, can joe biden go out and make this case to people? the enemy is not the new york times. what they have to recognize is■ people raising these questions, including the new york times, because they want to be trump. it is not because they have concerns about they don't like joe biden or something, it is precisely because as the times said in an editorial, they care so much about defeating donald trump that they feel the need to raise these questions. the advice i give, i have been in the bunker, i think i probably yelled at you, alex, when i was in the bunker. >> it's okay. >> we are still friends, right? i have done all those things.

but this is not the right approach, to kind of school people and dismiss people. and accuse people of not caring about beating trump. no, we all care about this. and frankly, they need to be doing this, you know, if they're going to stick with ■ç this, they have got to wrap their arms around everybody and say, let's do this together, instead of making the enemy the media or people that they don't like, things they see online. this is the coalition, this is the democracy coalition. and attacking your own coalition is not the right way to go here. >> i have to ask you when you talk about the coalition, there was a headline in the dark times, i think it was monday or tuesday, about the ron and their belief about what was going to unfold in november. the former president trump's victory in the 2024 white house race is a foregone conclusion. the urgent question facing iranian voters as they go to the polls on friday, they say, is who is best suited to deal with trumpet in the atlantic, saying most of western europe believes trump will win in november. i am sure netanyahu believes

certain things about who will win in november as well. there are key things, the global community is watching this and the global ■=55u9%qe was probably watching last night or looked at the headlines today. what are the implications. you understand america's role in the world. >> yeah, i think what people forget -- i have been in europe and asia in the last few months, and it is widely believed that that is the case there. and actually, i was making the case to them, it is going to come down to a few states, it is going to be close, it is going to matter how it ends. i think the challenge, to your question, though, is mainly around people like netanyahu and putin. the people that have a tremendous amount of interest in wanting donald trump to win. and having a capacity to affect global events in ways, whether it is election interference in this country from russia or whether it is the nature of how the conflict grows in gaza, netanyahu is coming herq4in a month, what he says in front of

congress. i do think that wanting to watch that is worrying to me is particularly what these two leaders, netanyahu and putin, but there are others as well who have some influence on how things look around the world, what they can do to be spoilers here. and that is just another reality we are going to have to contend with. >> it is going to be a long road. >> we can do this, that is the thing, but we have to do it openly, candidly, and honestly. that is the point i am making. we can't just kind of pretend there are no problems and trump is definitely going to lose. you have to run a campaign like you are afraid of losing, not like you are sure you're going to win. we did that in the obama campaign, even though he was up all the time. and that is the mentality i ■ç think we need to see, not a bunker mentality, but an inclusive, momentum building mentality, and the willingness to ask really hard questions, including what is the best way to put our best foot forward as a party? >> ben rose, it is always good

to get your thoughts on this in moments of crisis and otherwise. thank you, my friend, great to see you here. more ahead this hour, what would a biden bounce back officially look like? maryland governor wes moore joins me to discuss crisis management in the democratic party, that is coming up. but first, the supreme court limits the power of prosecutors against some january 6th defendants, including donald trump. what does this all mean for our special counsel jack smith? that is coming up, stay with us. >> [ music ] hey little bear bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm gonna love you forever ♪ ♪ ♪ c'mon, bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ you don't...you don't have to worry... ♪ ♪ be by your side... i'll be there... ♪ ♪ with my arms wrapped around... ♪

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so clearly you. sounded like a constant train whistle i couldn't escape. then i started taking lipo flavonoid. with 60 years of clinical experience, it's the number one doctor recommended brand for ear ringing. and now i'm finally free. take back control with lipo flavonoid. - did you know up to 40% of our food supply goes to waste? that's also a waste of energy and water. an easy way to make a difference is to only buy food you know you'll use. and remember: eat those leftovers. mmm! the more you know. today, the supreme court's conservative majority upended■ç the way our federal government functions by overturning the landmark decision chevron the nrdc. it requires courts to refer to the expert [ inaudible ]

today's 6-3 decision transfers an extraordinary amount of power from the executive branch to the federal judiciary. mark at slate said after today, virtually every decision an agency makes will be subject to free-floating veto by federal judges with zero expertise or accountability to the american people. "it is one of the most far- reaching and disruptive ruling smack in the history of the court. since 1984, federal courts have applied chevron in about 18,000 decisions in every conceivable area of the law: energy policy, education, food and drug safetyç labor, the environment, consumer protection, finance, healthcare, law, law enforcement, the list is pretty much endless. it has become the background principle against which congress enacts all legislation. that all ends now." joining me now are cheryl and

mark joseph stern, senior writer covering the courts and the law for slate magazine. thank you both for being here tonight. cheryl, let me first get your action to this landmark decision from the high court. >> it is a seismic shift in how the united states government operates, and i worry that many americans will not understand that this is as important an issue, as important, the transformation of how our country will cu run, as any we are confronting this year. it is a huge judicial power grab. it bespeaks a court that is arrogant and unwilling to recognize that the potential expertise of federal agencies, it takes power from congress, which after all dedicated that power to federal agencies, and i think it has created a problem it is not ready for in terms of the kind of backlog that we are going to see in these decisions.

it has been a project, though, of the conservatives for some time to deal with the chevron issue. conservatives of the kind, you know, the kind of former republican business lobby has wanted to get at chevron. so, it doesn't surprise me that chief justice roberts wrote ■çt opinion. this would serve the kind of interests that he has had for some time. this is not a matter of opinion, this is a traditional republican opinion, at least as they have conceived of chevron over the last 10 or so years, but it is devastating, i think, and potentially catastrophic. >> you know, i defer to you guys, the experts, that i wonder if there is a bit of mad that sprinkled in there, just because the deep state, the administrative state has been such a whipping post for the upper echelons of trump inc., including steve bannon, the guy going to jail on monday.

they have loathed agencies, the federal bureaucracy, and they have come to embrace the judiciary since they have hijacked it for conservative ends. ■ç >> yeah, i think this is an aspect of the traditional republican business lobby that the maga movement has embraced and turbocharged, because the majority opinion by chief justice roberts reflects not just this deep distrust of government employees, like you say, the deep state that donald trump wants to purge, but also, fundamental hostility toward how government works today. right? the majority is furious that when congress steps in to enact the new legislation and response to evolving problems, like for instance the great recession in 2008, it understands that it can't foresee every little problem that could arise on the ground and it can't prescribe every future solution to all of those issues, so what congress does instead and has done for more than a century, is grant these federal agencies brought parlor to decide■ç how exactly to

implement and enforce these laws, and to do so in accordance with their own expertise. the agencies that the court dismisses as staffed by bureaucrats, there actually stopped by career civil servants and experts with deep knowledge and experience working on issues, like monetary policy. elsewhere, environmental policy, food and drug safety. i think these are the people you would rather trust deciding these major issues, some of which can be literally life or death, rather than judges who happen to have a law degree and a black robe and have now sort of made themselves the kings, the deciders of all major and minor questions of law and policy in the country. so, what the majority of the court is telling congress is you have to■ç start writing narrower legislation, you have to start giving less authority to these agencies, you have to start writing more feeble laws that are less capable of addressing future problems as

they arise, and all of that is a recipe for paralyzing government, for paralyzing specifically regulatory state, that whether we know it or not, we are all relying on to ensure we have clean air, clean water, safe food and drugs. who really likes that outcome? it is industry, corporations, billionaires. so, that has always been the class that kind of came together, maga and the republican lobby are absolutely in agreement on this particular issue because it is good for their bottom line when they can evade epa regulations and dump as much pollution into our rivers as they want. >> this seems like a huge win for the koch brothers, is it not? >> it absolutely is, but let's ç take it a step further. think about the effort that at least some think is important to regulate social media. think about the department of education. think about all of the various agencies that are involved with law enforcement and weapons and so on and so forth. the court is essentially putting itself in the position of being the last word on how

all of those aspects of our lives are managed. the only thing that i think could be positive about this is that the court has now made a case for expanding the supreme court and the federal judiciary, because a court that can't finish its docket until july certainly is not a court that is prepared to take on all of the cases that will wind up through the system as a result of eliminating the chevron doctrine. that is the only silver lining that i can see, but i do think this is very, very grave indeed. >>■ç just gives a sense of how much more work the supreme court has taken on. i mean, these are decisions that they have no expertise in they are granular. here is an excerpt, how much nitrogen may be discharged by wastewater treatment plant in taunton, massachusetts? is there effective competition between cable tv providers and streaming video providers in hawaii, hawaii. does the process of mixing and back in sand constitute milling, which is regulate it under the

mine safety and health act, or manufacturing which is related under the occupational safety and health act. these are decisions that someone like daniel corset has no aptitude to answer. [ inaudible ] nitrous oxide which is laughing gas and nitrogen oxide, which is a smog, and he is the guy --■ç >> alex, remember, until a few months ago, justice alito couldn't even pronounce mifepristone, the abortion drug. these are not the areas in which they are expert. but this is about power. and i really think it is important to pay attention to the opinion written by chief justice roberts. it is an opinion he has had in his desk drawer for 10 years. it ignores everything we have been hearing over the past 10 years about the court. and he talks about the court making decisions with a clean heart and a clear mind and how judges are those we can rely on to be nonpolitical and impartial. he is basically making the case once again that everything you

have been seeing in the last couple of years, pay no attention to that, we are still the umpires calling balls and strikes, and that is why we are better at this than ■çanyone el could be. it is a decision completely out of time, but it reflects chief justice roberts' ideas about a kind of imperial scotus, a kind of muscular judiciary that he believes is really best equipped to make the best kind of decisions about how we live our lives. i find it very, very troubling to just read the language of the decision. >> yeah, it is a huge moment for the country. we are going to take a quick break, cheryl lynn and mark, we have a lot more to discuss, including what the supreme court's ruling on one january 6th case could mean for other election denying defendants, including a man named donald trump. we are going to talk about that next. >> [ music ]

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[ muted ] [ muted ] we now know that the supreme court will issue its decision on whether donald trump is immune from federal prosecution on monday. and today, we got a ruling that has the potential to reshape the case for which trump is seeking that immunity in the first place. this morning, the court ruled in favor of joseph fisher, a police officer who clashed with police inside the capitol while congress was counting electoral votes. it was a former police officer. federal prosecutors charged fisher with obstructing an official proceeding, and today,

the supreme ■çcourt ruled those charges were improperly brought. that decision could affect hundreds of other january 6th defendants, and will almost certainly affect the 52 who were convicted on that obstruction charge alone. the ruling also has implications for former president donald trump, who was charged with the very same crime. back with me are cheryl lynn ifill and mark joseph stern, writing for slate magazine. thank you guys, both, for sticking around. mark, before we get to the substance of this ruling, i just want to note that justice thomas and justice alito ruled on this despite the fact that justice alito had insurrectionist flags flying over two of his sons, and justice thomas's wife helped shape the effort to overthrow %-úshould we be surprised by anything at this point? >> no, in a system with even moderately functioning judicial ethics, boast of those justices

would have recused from this case and the trumpet minority case the court will decide on monday, but i guess i also want to take another step back and just note, alex, this is a supreme court that upheld last year that criminal defendants who are literally and demonstrably innocent of any crime can be held in prison for life in accordance with due process. this is a court that just this morning held that states can, in accordance with the constitution, criminalize homeless people and jail them for not having a place to sleep. this is a court, specifically a conservative super majority, that is extraordinarily hostile to the mine run of criminal defendants who are not powerful or politically connected.■ç but when it comes to january 6th defendants, the chief justice, in his opinion for the court, really kind of rolls out the red carpet and gets them every single benefit of the doubt in this case, an opinion that was signed on to gladly buy justices alito and thomas. so, there's a lot to be

disturbed by here. not just the hypocrisy and the ethical breaches, but the fact that if this were a court that were probably more favorable toward defendants in these situations, hey, i might get them the benefit of the doubt. here, they deserve no such thing. they're giving special treatment to january 6th defendants and january 6th defendants only. this kind of treatment will not extend to other cases. >> to that point, geralyn, it really seems like the supreme court is thumbing its nose at insurrectionist. this is an interview with bill shipley, a former prosecutor who defended some of these insurrectionists, he is saying, "you've never had a situation like this, i'm not aware of any prior circumstance where hundreds of people were charged with the same crime for the same offense, only to have the supreme court then say that it was wrongly fully applied and all those cases have to be revisited at the same moment." it is just highly unusual, is it not >> it is highly unusual, and

let me add something to mark's list of comparative cases. my colleague, now the president and director of council on the ncaa defense fund, refused to hear the case involving mckesson who is being sued by a police officer for being injured by other protesters at blm protests back in 2017. ■ç so, the court has really got a narrow lens for the user january 6 protesters, and the tell, i think, is in the decision once again. he is pay attention to how these decisions are written. i literally counted it up, describing the insurrection that took place, six sentences in that opinion. as compared to the pages in which the chief justice roberts describes the issue involving fisheries in the case that overturned chevron, or even justice talking about the complexity of the homeless situation, takes four pages of

his opinion. chief justice roberts devotes six lines to describing how what he calls the trump supporters came to the capitol and broke some windows. we saw this ■çin the 14th amendment section 3 case. this court will not touch it january 6th. we saw it at the oral argument, they don't want to talk about what happened. so, not only are they created this narrow lane of detection for these january 6 protesters, they are creating a lane in which the insurrection is not the insurrection, it is trump supporters arriving at the courthouse, and it is minimized every time one of these cases comes before the supreme court, they minimize the factual context of this insurrection. they are more concerned, for pages and pages, about commercial fisheries than they are about an attempt to hijack the presidential election. they are sending lots of signals that are not just in the outcome of the case, but in the criminology of the way these

decisions are written, and we have to ■çpay attention to how the court is hurting us towards a minimization of what happened on january 6, 2021. >> mark, do you have any thoughts about how this might affect the case against trump, it seems like the council has built and some failsafes in case the obstruction pieces thrown out, but how optimistic are you that it stays in? >> i'm never optimistic when it comes to this supreme court, especially after this morning. but the ruling here it says obstruction of an official proceeding isn't enough for a conviction under the statute, there has to be enough evidence that the defendant was attempting to alter or impair or destroy some kind of documents. here, the documents would be the actual physical copies of electoral votes sent in by the states. prosecutors, since this case reached the court, have started showing jurors in d.c. videos of security ■çin the u.s. capit, hurriedly taking those copies

of the electoral votes and moving them to a safe place. explain to the juries that the purpose of this siege was to try to impair the accounting of those votes. that should be enough to serve a conviction, even under the courts cramped reading of the statute. and i think that jack smith will have a very, very strong argument that trumps a hole in here wasn't just to create chaos at the capitol, it was to interrupt the counting of those votes and potentially substitute those certificates with fraudulent certificates submitted by alternet electors. what will happen is that even if somehow this case moves forward and jack smith explains it that way and he gets a conviction, trump will appeal, o back to this supreme court, and the court will have another opportunity to gnaw away at the statute, to narrow it even more, to create some kind of magical escape hatch for donald trump and donald trump only. so, i think it is important to sort of look at what the date here. it could be the first of several moves that it

eventually takes to sort of neuter this statute, so that jack smith can never fairly apply it to secure a conviction of donald trump. >> geralyn and mark joseph stern, a monumental day at the high court, it is really great to have you both here for perspective, thanks for your time this friday night. coming up, new reporting on democratic leadership concerns about president biden and what the party can do about it. maryland governor wes moore joins me, coming right up. >> [ music ] repair breath freshener. clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. a new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. ( ♪ ♪ )

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>> >> earlier today the president said himself it was not his best performance. we believe in our president, joe biden, and we believe in what he stands for. listen, we have 130 days on the calendar until election day. 130 days. and this race will not be decided by one night in june. >> that was vice president kamala harris today and las vegas, nevada, a state that■ç j biden won back in 2020. according to a fox news poll this month, biden is trailing trump in that state by five points, which is within the margin of error. meanwhile, biden himself was in north carolina this afternoon, a state he normally lost to donald trump in 2020 by just over 1% of votes. join me now is wes moore, democratic governor of maryland. governor moore, my friend, it is great to see you. how many text messages did you

get last night suggesting you book a trip to chicago in mid august? >> well, i plan on being in chicago in august, and i plan on being out there to support the nomination of joe biden. and because i think the thing that we continue to see it is that performance matters■ç and results matter. and i am not just talking about debate performances. i am talking about presidential performances. if you look at the performance of the president has continued to show over these years, if you look at what is happening just in the state of maryland where we have been able to, when i was inaugurated maryland was ranked 33rd and unemployment, now going on 12 straight months amongst the lowest unemployment rates in the entire country, we have been able to have one of the fastest drops in violence and homicide rates that we have seen anywhere around the country. baltimore city, the last time homicide rates were this low i was not even born yet. that is all but done in partnership with the biden harrison ministration. i will be in chicago and i will be there probably to support the president and the vice president. >> you know, we talked a lot

about biden's performance last night. but i think it is of some import to talk about the things that donald trump said on stage. one of the things i'm curious to get your reaction to is an answer trump gave in the course of a longer response on immigration, and he said that migran(s are taking black jobs now. it could be 18, it could be 19, it could be 20 million migrants, they are taking black jobs. governor, what is a black job? >> i'm still trying to figure that one out. i've got to tell you, my phone was blowing up with my friends who were like i'm sorry, what did i just hear what he was talking about black jobs lexi and you know, this is actually a classic example of what we are talking about, where the president of the united states, joe biden, talks about work, wages, and wealth. and he has a track record about how you are delivering work, wages, and wealth to all members of our society and not just some. the fact that it is now during

the president's time that we have been able to decrease the racial wealth gap in our state by 60%, that we are seeing the fastest growth in black-owned businesses, ■çparticularly businesses started by black men that we have seen in 30 years. and, on the other side, you have donald trump who is talking about black jobs. this is very, it is not just embarrassing, frankly, it is donald trump's vision about how he thinks about the future and what he is actually going to fight for. and the fact that donald trump is walking around talking about how he had a great debate last night while making comments like black jobs, or about taking babies after they are born, i mean, this just shows the really dangerous and frightening direction that donald trump believes about this country and believes this country is going to go in. >> listen, i know what an asian job is because my mom is asian, and it involved being nice to my aunties and getting straight a's. i bet your mom has some ideas ■ç of what a black job is. but only in the colloquial sense of family. you bring up trump's attitude

towards the black community, the communities of color he is trying to make outreach too. he is still on the strip about the mug shot endearing him to communities of color, because apparently every person in the black community is in jail or has a friend or family member in jail. one would inc. that that would be not only not helpful, but insulting. i wonder why you think trump is gaining traction with black voters. >> well, i actually don't know if he is. and again, you are right. donald trump's track record with black voters is a very long track record. in fact, it goes all the way back to things like the central park five and the exonerated five, when there were five young people, five teenagers who did absolutely nothing wrong, but donald trump was publicly calling for their execution.■ç so donald trump's track record in the black community is actually very long. and it is also very disturbing. i think the thing we know is that to go with the african- american vote, you have to earn it. no matter who you are. i know that thinking about even

my race, i had to go earn the african-american vote. because we know that there is a long history of not just mistrust, but frankly, cynicism that exists in a lot of segments of the african- american community about the american political system. and that cynicism is justified. the thing that we do know is that you have a president right now who has been fighting and advocating for issues when it comes to economic growth and economic advancement that you have a president who has been fighting for things like cannabis reform. these things matter. economic growth and entrepreneurship, these things matter. and that is why i think the president has ■çearned another four years. >> governor of maryland wes moore bringing a ray of light to the end of this dark week. thank you so much for making time for us tonight. >> it is so good seeing you. >> we'll be right back.

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